#022 Betrayed at 14, Gangs, and Turning Total Devastation Into a Mission | Kelley Jean Blas

At just 14 years old, Kelley Jean Blas faced ultimate betrayal, ran away to join a gang, and survived being left for dead. In this raw episode of Living on Incline, host John Eklund sits down with Kelley to discuss her powerful story of overcoming severe childhood trauma, fighting addiction, navigating profound grief, and turning total devastation into a front-line rescue mission.

If you are looking for an inspiring story of hope, resilience, and finding purpose in the pain, Kelley’s testimony of faith and survival is an absolute must-watch. 

Decades after overcoming a methamphetamine addiction and surviving the streets, Kelley experienced the unthinkable heartbreak of losing a child. Instead of letting the grief break her, she chose to push upward, choosing to live on an incline. Today, she is the founder of JoCo Angels—a powerful non-profit organization dedicated to fighting the front lines of the overdose crisis, supporting grieving families, and raising critical awareness about the modern drug epidemic. 

In this unfiltered conversation, John and Kelley also sound the alarm on the hidden threat of synthetic drugs, fentanyl poisoning, and the terrifying rise of highly addictive, over-the-counter opioid derivatives like kratom extracts being legally sold to minors in everyday vape shops and gas stations. 

This interview is a masterclass in mental health recovery, trauma healing, and finding a spiritual anchor after absolute devastation. 



#LivingOnIncline #KelleyJeanBlas #OvercomingTrauma #AddictionRecovery #GriefAndLoss #FentanylAwareness #KratomCrisis #FaithAndHealing #InspirationalStories #PodcastInterview

Listen and Follow Living on Incline

Listen on your favorite platform:
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/living-on-incline/id1828304603
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/78HwNrRWZHGAHL8Zv90nO0?si=e4b5d032e9214deb
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZdyfS2K4OE4WFJRWSuAgsQ
RSS Feed: https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2521959.rss
Website: https://www.livingonincline.com



Sponsored by Recovery Alive

Living on Incline is proudly sponsored by Recovery Alive, a Christ-centered recovery program helping people find hope, healing, and purpose through authentic community and biblical transformation.

Learn more: https://www.recoveryalive.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/recoveryaliveinc/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/recoveryaliveinc
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@recoveryalive

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

And I ended up getting raped and left in a field.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

14 ran away from with a gang.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Because I wanted to join the gang.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

What does a ten, twelve, thirteen-year-old girl think when mom is choosing this abuser?

SPEAKER_03 0:14

I wanted to die. I I felt like I didn't have any worth and that there was never gonna be any anything in my future. I couldn't imagine a future.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Well, hey everybody, John Eklund here, living on Incline, another incredible guest we have with us, Kelly. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. You've been championing this uh overdose awareness cause for a long time. This podcast is about people who wake up every day and say, hey, I'm hit with these challenges, but I'm going to keep moving upwards and seeing how I can find purpose in my pain. Tell us about Joko Angels, what you guys have been doing.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Like we started out and it was heroin. You know, the calls that we were getting were around heroin. It has shifted to fentanyl, and it's still that's still the number one drug of choice. You know, when we get a phone call, it's 99% of the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Right before we came up, what we were talking about is Kratom and seeing some scary things being sold over the counter.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Which is absolutely insane that that these opioid derivatives are just like, hey, go to the vape shop or the gas station.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

And you're getting some substances that are killing people.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

So that's still number one. Um, but we are seeing that a lot of people who have gone through recovery and have been free from opioids are shifting now and finding themselves addicted to kratom. Yeah. And from what they tell me, the detox, the withdrawal off of kratom or any of these over-the-counter things is so much worse than heroin or fentanyl.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

So much of it was just driven by money. I don't think that um as a therapist, there's anything harder than having a conversation about why this thing happened.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

I sometimes feel guilty because I miss John so much, but I think I have like accepted David, and I'm having a harder time like understanding like why we had to lose John, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Hey, life is very difficult sometimes. You could be going through relationship problems, you could be having issues at work, you could be struggling with an addiction, depression, anxiety. There are all kinds of reasons why we struggle. And there aren't a lot of resources out there at times when we need immediate help. Yes, there are therapists, yes, there are psychiatrists, but sometimes those waiting lists are long. And just to reach out to somebody, it can be overwhelming. And so I want to recommend to Recovery Alive. Recovery Alive is this faith-based program that you can immediately engage with a community of people who are going to love you and walk you through your struggle. One of the first things you want to do if you want to get involved in this program is get a hold of the Recovery Alive Handbook. You can work on this handbook one-on-one with one safe and supportive person. Or you could get online, uh, recoveryalive.com and get into some of our communities. We have groups of gender-specific recovery 12-step processes that you can walk through with safe and supportive people, connect to those folks. Or maybe you're somebody who is trying to get out of a difficult situation, whether you've come out of a rehabilitation uh clinic or we have folks who are coming out of jails and prisons. We have recovery alive homes, safe transition homes. We have all kinds of programming to help you. But if you're watching this or listening to Living on Incline, connect with Recovery Alive. Get a hold of this book, get a hold of maybe one safe and supportive person. Check out our online programming and get the help that you need and get it today. You don't have to suffer alone. Well, hey everybody, John Eklund here, Living on Incline. Another incredible guest we have with us. Kelly, thank you so much for hanging out with us. If you don't mind, uh, if you'd hit that subscribe button, like, share all those good things, comment on this incredible episode. Um, Kelly, thank you for the generosity you've shown just to show up and hang out with us. We've known each other for, I don't know, how long have we been hanging out? Seven or eight years. Yeah, seven or eight years. And you've been championing this uh overdose awareness cause for a long time. I just had a conversation with Aliyah who've just experienced a bunch of tragedy, and it's just shocking again in her life. Um, and Frida, and you work with all these folks. Um, you're somebody who is living on Incline. This podcast is about people who wake up every day and say, Hey, I'm hit with these challenges, but I'm going to keep moving upwards and seeing how I can find purpose in my pain. And uh just thank you again for what you do. You inspire us, uh, Recovery Live. We love to work with you. You do a lot for our folks. And uh just thank you.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

You're welcome in the world.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Nothing else is a chance to just say we're very, very grateful for you. And it's incredible what you're doing. Absolutely incredible. And uh what have you been up to lately? Like, what's going on right now in Joco Angels? Tell us about Joko Angels, what you guys have been doing, uh your your fundraising, what that's going to what's happening like right now in your life?

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Well, right, it's interesting because like right now, like in the past couple of years, things have kind of shifted with Joko Angels. So for the first few years that we actually started raising money and using money, um, it was going to Hope Center Ministries. And we were sponsoring people, several people.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Hope Center, uh, tell us about Hope Center.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

So Hope Center is a one-year faith-based program that um where they do vocational training and they they just learn how to live life again.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

So they have a whole year kind of in this bubble where they're learning how to work and they're they're doing, you know, all the things that they're folks with substance use disorders who are finding that healing, and that's uh a bit of a transition space for folks to work through some some issues with their addiction and and find some hope and some healing, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Absolutely, and a place where they can uh reconnect with their faith or find faith, you know, and so that was really important to us because we felt like you know, the foundation of anybody who's in recovery is that you have to have a relationship with Christ. True freedom is is going to come from Christ.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

So you're working a bunch with Hope Center, yes. And then things have shifted a little bit years.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

It was like Hope Center, Hope Center, Hope Center, and we still work with Hope Center. Sure, but over the past couple of years, it's been more recovery alive homes, Oxford houses, uh transitional living. So we're finding that more and more people are in that space.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

That's sober living. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

And that's and so that's what we're uh that's basically the most that we're we're doing right now.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Well, and we love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

So are you seeing an uptick in um folks who are struggling with this? We were talking about this uh this over-the-counter, we're gonna take all kinds of we'll take a lot of different turns in this conversation, but I I thought just what we were right before we came out, what we were talking about is Kratom and seeing some scary things being sold over the counter, right, which is absolutely insane that that these opioid derivatives are just like, hey, go to the vape shop or the gas station, right, and you're getting some substances that are killing people. Yeah. And so you um just over the time that you have been experiencing this addiction crisis personally and then engaging in it with your nonprofit, a lot of changes.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

Oh, yeah. Well, I think, you know, like we started out and it was heroin. You know, the calls that we were getting were around heroin. It has shifted to fentanyl, and it's still that's still the number one drug of choice. You know, when we get a phone call, it's 99% of the time.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

But even fentanyl changed where it was accidental overdose with stuff that was.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Now it's by choice.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

By choice I'm taking fentanyl. Where it's like, oh man, I didn't know there was fentanyl in this thing. And so yeah, like seeking fentanyl.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Mm-hmm.

unknown 9:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

So that's still number one. Um, but we are seeing that a lot of people who have gone through recovery and have been free from opioids are shifting now and finding themselves addicted to kratom. Yeah. And from what they tell me, the detox, the withdrawal off of kratom or any of these over-the-counter things is so much worse than heroin or fentanyl.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

And they're pushing it just easily.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Like you experienced it myself.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

They're pushing that over the counter. Like, hey, man, you you know, this is a something you can add to your vaping experience.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Right. It's terrifying. Yeah. Terrifying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

And it's all a lot of it's just greed driven. I mean, when you look at the opioid crisis, so much of it was just driven by money.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Cutting heroin so that you know you could get it higher. Yeah. More higher and more for your dollar on the on the selling end of it, get more out of the product, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

And then yeah, the the opioid crisis through the Sacklers and the uh Oxycontin craze and we're gonna have Sam Canyones on here from uh Dreamland, which I can't wait. Like that's gonna be huge. He's gonna be with us here in a little bit. But so your your uh personal story, how you got to this place where you're working with folks who are struggling with opioid overdose. Um I was talking to Casey Temple and that we were gonna have a conversation. And of course, I want to talk about your story. I want to walk through how you decided that you were going to start combating this drug crisis and making an impact, how it was obviously a very personal crisis that drove you to this place. But I also wanted to I I feel like and I just I I woke up this morning thinking I want to talk about grief a little bit too. The the the part of of the tragedies that you've experienced where it's great to have you sitting here going, like, I'm gonna take my experience and I'm gonna turn it into you know purpose and God is going to receive the glory out of all of this.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

But in I don't think that's anybody's real plan.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Right. The in-between of of the grief, I wanted to touch on that because I think people need to know how hard it was for you to get there.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

And um and so as I'm reading your story and and looking at you know some of the stuff that happened early in your life, grief hit you like very fast. Uh your d your your dad passed away.

SPEAKER_04 12:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

How old were you when when your dad passed away?

SPEAKER_04 12:28

Six.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Six years old. So that's your formative years.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Right. And what kind of relationship did you have with he was the parent that was the engaged, uh calm, loving parent. You know, he was a construction worker, but at the same time, he was our soccer coach and our um softball coach. And so, you know, I remember my dad, very much a country boy, born in Oklahoma. We were living in San Antonio, Texas, and he had an old truck and he'd let us stand on the bench of the truck while he played Love Boy back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

So, you know, back in the 70s, early 80s, you know, that it was just good. We had a great relationship and nurturing, connecting, yes, yeah. And even though I was only six when he passed, I remember that and I have memories of him loving us, you know, and how he loved us.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

A blessing, yes, but also rough, yeah, really rough. What do you remember about the grief the the after as a six-year-old?

SPEAKER_03 13:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

What did you experience?

SPEAKER_03 13:35

I remember my mom getting us from school and telling us in the backyard, you know, and I remember her like not being able to say the words that but there was a bunch of people around. And um, she finally was, you know, I finally said, Did daddy die? Oh, she's and she started crying and she said yes. And I just remember like just feeling alone in that moment. And I don't think as a six-year-old you really process it. No, yeah, you know, but as time went on, I began to think if daddy were here, you know, because then things started happening in our lives, you know, things shifted for my mom, and she went through a whole bunch of things and relationships and uh things that were painful and abusive to us. And so the theme of my life and the thought that I carried with me for many, many years was if daddy were here, this wouldn't happen. If daddy were here, he wouldn't allow this. And you know, so that kind of carried on until I was a older teen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Your mom how long were they married?

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Um, let's see. He died when he was 29. I guess they were they would have been together 10 years or so.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

10 years.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Yeah. They were young.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

And your mom up to that point, you said your dad was the more my mom was a nurse.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Yeah. My mom was a nurse in RN, and she was very committed to her job. You know, she loved us. It wasn't that she didn't love us, but she kind of shifted to the party lifestyle after uh my dad's death. And so she That's how she coped. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Was through yeah, and how so how did that impact you all? Like sh was sort of out of the picture. Were you guys uh how many siblings did you have?

SPEAKER_03 15:24

I had a br I have an older brother and a younger sister. Okay. And she was there. Um, she uh also in in all of this, um, my dad died in a car accident, and it was with a um a company, uh company truck that hit him. And so there was a big lawsuit and a trial, and my mom ended up getting a significant amount of money. Okay. And so that also played a part in like the lifestyle thing. So, you know, the people that were coming around were very much into that, you know, when somebody has money and you know, uh people were coming around. So we I just remember us like being upstairs and looking down over, like my mom had a big house and a pool, looking down and seeing people and uh finding needles sometimes. Um my mom has never been an addict or an alcoholic. She was functioning, but people around her were addicts. And and specifically the next uh man that she got with was a terrible addict and ended up taking everything, you know, all the money that she had, everything from her.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

And you're watching this.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

We watched that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Uh older brother, was he protective?

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Was he he was he was he's uh 18 months older than me. And it when we got into the next relationship, the stepfather and the the abuse, and where we're we really um he was very abusive not only to us as kids, but to my mom. That's when my brother really started to fight back, and he actually was the one who reported the things that were happening and ended up getting us removed from the home.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Holy smokes. So mom remarries. This is her grief process. You're watching her cope with uh grieve, you guys are grieving, all trying to figure this out, and she's uh in her own mess, and so she's not for whatever reason, she's not as helpful, not present as a parent, yeah. Not so so you're coping by yourselves, you're just you know, yeah, just uh alone with this. And then mom brings us a new person into your life, stepdad, right, and uh pretty quickly the abuse begins.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Oh yeah. Um I was probably 10 and he was very well known in the Native American community. We lived in Taos, New Mexico at the time. And um, yeah, that that began pretty early on when I was about 10 or 10. I was about 10 when the sexual abuse started. And you know, there was physical abuse, anger, but the sexual abuse started early. I immediately tried to get my mom and tell her, and that turned into beatings and you know her because you told. Yes. Yeah, because she was jealous or because she felt like I was doing something. Um so that went on for a couple of years until he for two years. Yeah. Yeah. And uh your older brother finally He told my grandparents when we were visiting um over the summer, he told my grandparents, and they didn't actually do anything at that moment. Um I w we wanted to stay with them, but they were they lost their grandparents. Yes, but they weren't really sure what to do in that moment. Um but my stepdad ended up hitting my mom so hard that it broke her neck, kicked her in the neck, and she was in traction. And um then CPS stepped in and said, You can either be with him or you can have your children. And she chose him. She married him in the in the hospital bed. Yeah. And so my grandparents came at that point and took us.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

And the messages you're receiving this entire time about your worth and your value.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Yeah. That um that part of the grief I think has been one of the hardest, of course, later in life, but definitely harder, but the relationship with my mom, I wanted my mom. I wanted her to love me, and I wanted to do whatever it took for her to love me. And I I don't think we've ever really established that, even even as of today, even though we have a relationship, it's not that relationship.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

And what does a 10, 12, 13 year old girl think when mom is choosing this abuser over you and the not just her abuser, but your abuser.

SPEAKER_04 19:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

And that her reaction is jealousy and overwhelming. And so you're living with your grandparents, and are you seeing your mom?

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Are you Yeah, we were we had uh court ordered supervised uh therapy.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Oh wow, family therapy.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Yeah, like court ordered, like we would see her, I don't know, every other month or so in a therapist's office.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

Right. And so that went on for a few years.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Um Is that beneficial?

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Was it I was so angry at that point. Like I I just remember like not wanting to talk to her, not wanting anything to do with her. And you know, both my brother and I were just not and at that point I was preteen and didn't love my grandparents' rules either.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

So I was rebelling.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Well, I mean, you were in I mean uh chaos.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Chaos, spiraling and they tried. My grandparents tried so hard, they were so involved, they put us in ROTC, they were teen parents, everything, but I just rebelled.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

How about your brother?

SPEAKER_03 21:01

He did he did very well.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Did he?

SPEAKER_03 21:03

Yeah, he like embraced that lifestyle and and really accepted it and did well.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

How about that? Well, yeah. So your your brother's doing the best he can. You're starting to spiral your anger, your coping. Are you starting to when you when you talk about rebellion, what did that look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 21:22

So my grandparents were old school and they felt like you know that different races don't mix. And so when I was in high school, I loved with all my heart. You know, when you're 13, you can love with all your heart. You do. I was looking for love. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Oh, for sure. I got four daughters, and every like you have to understand, like that's it's hard. It's been hard for me to just roll my eyes at times when they're just like it's all that emotional, but it's real. It's so real.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Yeah. And so I loved with all my heart a boy that was mixed race, and that was just not allowed. And so, you know, they made sure that that wasn't happening.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

And so the harder they push, the more you push.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Yeah. And you know, he was a good boy. He was in R OTC with my brother. He was not have you know, he didn't want to ruffle any feathers. So then I went from that to just like hanging out with people that were in gangs. And, you know, in San Antonio at that time, that was the thing is that there were gangs and ended up running away from home. And how old? I was 14.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

14 ran away from home.

unknown 22:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

With a gang.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Because I wanted to join the gang.

unknown 22:31

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Yeah. And I ended up getting raped and left in a field. Jeez. They put me in a state hospital and my grandparents said, You're gonna be here till you're 18. Yes, we can't do this. And I looking back, I understand like why they had to do that and why they felt that way. But at that point, it was just like I truly am on my own. I don't have anybody.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

And tell me about that 14-year-old girl. Like that in that chaos. Do you remember what was going on? Do you remember what you're thinking?

SPEAKER_03 23:08

I wanted to die. I I felt like I d didn't have any worth and that there was never gonna be any anything in my future. I couldn't imagine a future. Um I didn't have any foundation of faith. We weren't raised in a Christian home or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Just hopeless.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Yeah. I just felt hopeless. And looking back, like I can see where God's hand was on me. But I at that point in my life, it was dark. I didn't see that.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

So when you say that, where where did you where do you now see God? In those moments. Yeah, because a lot of people would be like, seems like he's abandoned you. Like it's just hell. Your life is hell.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

And for you to say that is inspiring. It's right. I mean, like, for you to go like, God's hand was on me. And I'm I'm looking at dad passed away, stepmom rejects you. Step, I mean, the stepdad's abuse.

unknown 24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Just got ripped. And you're sitting here telling me I see God's hand in my life.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Yeah. Because there's people, like there was always someone that saw something different in me. And, you know, I was still able to do well in school. I was still able to find that one person who cared and thought something of me. So even though I was in the state hospital and where they like lock it, lock the door and throw away the key, there was staff members who cared about me and they opened the door, let me jump the fence. I mean, that literally happened where they said, just go.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

You're kidding.

SPEAKER_03 24:41

No. Because I didn't belong there and they knew that.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

And they opened the door and let you escape.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

So you're in the state hospital for how long?

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Uh over six months. Six months. Six to nine months.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Oh, and so you're 15 or 14?

SPEAKER_03 24:59

14, probably turning 15.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

And you and you escaped the state hospital. Where'd you go?

SPEAKER_03 25:04

I called my mom.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Huh.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Sent me a bus ticket. I got on a bus and went back to New Mexico.

unknown 25:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

And stayed with your mom?

SPEAKER_03 25:14

Stayed with my mom and stepdad for about a year until same stepdad? Same stepdad. Yeah. Yeah. And then I got emancipated because I couldn't live there. I ran away. And went to a group home. And this is again where God's hand was on me. Uh, the therapist that was there saw everything very clearly. My stepdad was writing letters to me while I was in this group home and saying, you know, I only did this because. And she showed them to my mom and she said, I need you to understand that this is what's happening. And she said, I don't see anything wrong. He's apologizing. So they emancipated me at 15. And they said, you know, this is not healthy for you. It's not, you don't have anywhere to go. And so when I was 15 years old, state of New Mexico emancipated me. They I was able to begin drawing my dad's social security to take care of myself, get a GED.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

And started my life kind of as an adult when I was 15.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

So 15 though, something must have flipped where you uh saw a little bit of purpose and hope for your future to be moving towards adulthood in that way, like getting a GED. Something happened. Enough people in your life believed in you that you thought maybe.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

Yeah, I think enough people believed in me. And also, like, like I said, like God, I believe He gave me just always like um not just an academic uh smarts, but also like uh highly intelligent. Yeah, yeah. You had that game. Like, yeah, common sense. Yeah, like okay, I I knew how to like when I look at 15-year-olds right now, I'm like, there's no way.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Like I have a 15-year-old niece. Yeah. And you know, I don't even want her to leave the house by herself.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yes. Well, what were the adults again? Like, what are the adults thinking, all of them, to see this kid 14, 15, going through the hell that you're going through?

SPEAKER_03 27:15

My family never said anything. It's crazy. Never really had any.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

And then there are people all over the place going through some of these things. They have people don't have any idea. No idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

So 15, you're basically an adult. You're emancipated. You're independent. You're living in a group home.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

No, I I mean by the by then I was released, I had an apartment. You know, I'm how old are you?

SPEAKER_02 27:39

And you have an apartment? 15. You're 15.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

Yes. What? Had a job.

unknown 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Where were we working? I started at a diner, eventually moved to like cleaning hotel rooms, little tiny town in New Mexico.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

15 living in an apartment, working at a diner. That's insane. Could that happen today?

SPEAKER_03 28:02

I don't know. I've not heard of a lot of people that have been through that.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

You didn't write a book. That's insane. I'm sure people told you. That's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

So what else are you doing at 15? Like, are you?

SPEAKER_03 28:17

I'm in love. Yes. Like, of course, you know, and he's 20 and I'm 15. And he was a raging alcoholic. And I was trying to take care of him. And at 15. At 15.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

Yeah. And eventually he ended up getting into a lot of trouble in our hometown. And his option was to join the Navy or go to like prison.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

And so he did. And my dream was always to get to California.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 28:45

So by this time, I mean, I think I was 18 at this time. So we we were together, you know, for those years. And it was, you know, really truly that that real love, like that first love, like, you know, punching a gut love.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

And um, so he knew I wanted to go to California. And so he joined the Navy, and all three options that he wrote were down were California. He got it. And we moved to California and got married as soon as I turned 18.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

And you lived happily ever after.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

No.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

As soon as you turn 18, he moved to California. Where were you in California?

SPEAKER_03 29:23

We were in uh San Diego, living in like Chula Vista. Yeah. Yeah. So he's he the first time he went off on ship was the first time I was ever truly alone. And like I'm living in California while he's gone off ship. I don't have to take care of an alcoholic, so I can like enjoy my life. Sure. I have friends. Started going to Tijuana and I was like, what am I doing in this marriage? So I got it an ult. Did you really? Yeah, I got it an ult. Because you could, because you were We Yeah, we were like together. We were married for like a year. And so I went to a I was 18. I went to a lawyer and I asked him if I can get an annult.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

And then while he's he was on ship, which is horrible. You know, come on. You you had a lot going on in your life. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

But yeah, we got uh we got an ulmet and then I figured out that I could go to Chula Vista and I was 18 or uh go to Tijuana. And I took the trolley with my friends Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, partied in Tijuana.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Were you doing were you working?

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Yeah, I was like working at a um like a salad place. I really wasn't, you know, wasn't going to school, wasn't doing anything.

unknown 30:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

And then I met a Marine.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Another military guy.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Another military guy in uh in Tijuana. And then I thought, okay, now I really have found someone who's got a goals. And if he didn't join the military because he was forced to, right, you know, and thought that this was gonna be it.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

And next thing I know, I'm pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Ah.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

You know, and um This is David. This is David. Yeah. And prior to that, you know, with the partying, I had also had become addicted to meth.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

So I had a a meth addiction for about six months.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Oh uh alcoholic.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Alcohol really wasn't a thing, and you know, other than just being easy access.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

How did meth enter the picture?

SPEAKER_03 31:26

Because throughout this whole time in my life, um, one of the things that I struggled with was my weight. And somebody introduced me to meth, and all of a sudden, there was no weight problem, and I loved that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

I I think that's an important feature.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Um, to acknowledge is that that was an added motivation.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

That was the motivation for me. It was. It was self, you know, self-esteem, self-worth, you know, it was like that's so to get off of that meant I would gain weight getting off of that. So yeah, there's just that add that's an added And I would have never gotten off of it if I didn't get pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

So the pregnancy was life-changing.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Yes. Yes. And of course, because I had gone from using to pregnant, then I gained like 80 pounds in my pregnancy with David. But it was still like everything I ever wanted because here I am now.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

How old?

SPEAKER_03 32:27

19. 19 when I got pregnant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

You've lived quite a life by 19. Dear. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

But I'm thinking, like, okay, now my life starts. And I actually started to settle down. Yes. Like, like I God has finally given me everything I want. Probably didn't think of it that way, but I did think I need to start going to church for some reason.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

So God hadn't really entered the picture for you.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

Not yet. But when I became pregnant, I started attending a church. Okay. Just our local San Diego. San Diego. Well, we were living in Oceanside.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

He was still in uh station at Camp Pendleton. So there was a little Episcopal church around the corner, and I started going. I didn't know what I was doing there. When I opened the Bible, it made no sense at all. But I would sit there and think, well, I'm doing the right thing because I'm about to have a kid. And that's good people go to church.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Good people go to church. Yes. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

And that's what you're supposed to do if you want to have a normal life. Okay. And um, and my husband, too, he had he was raised in church. We did get married. Yes, we did get married, and he was raised in a Lutheran church. So Episcopal wasn't that different for him. He was good with it.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

He was good with it.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

He was neither one of us were like Christians or committed. We were just trying to do some do the right thing. Which I think God honors, you know.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

There's all these paths to him.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

He knows. Yeah. And so I have David, and I am so excited to be a mom. And he's the most beautiful, perfect, happy, gorgeous baby you've ever seen. And I'm miserable because I'm fat again. And I think I could just use a little bit and take care of this. And that way I can be the mom I'm supposed to be. That's your motivation. This picture in my head of, you know, being able to run on the beach with my baby.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Those are your motives. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

You know, I'm thinking, you know, this and start using again. And my husband didn't know about the initial use. Um, but eventually, I think David was five months old when he realized like what was going on.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

He he caught you using or he came and found me. Okay. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

One night. He came and found me. And um he said, I'm done. Like, I'm taking David. Wow. You can go to detox, rehab, whatever you want, but I'm done. I'm getting a divorce. I don't want anything to do with you. And we were sitting in our Jeep as he's telling me this. And he said he's already talked to his command and he's just wants to be done with me. And drunk real quick.

unknown 35:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

So he's in a space where he's over yeah, he's horrified. I can't believe that he's in this situation.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Yeah, you know, and and he's totally straight. You know, he's focused on being a Marine and being a father. And here I am just spiraling.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

And he had no clue.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

No, before that, no. Yeah. No. Um, and so I'm we're sitting in our car in our Jeep at the time, and I'm in the passenger seat, and I just like start screaming in my head, like, God, if you're real, please help me. Please change this.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Isn't that where we find them most of the time?

SPEAKER_03 35:54

Yes, in this deepest, darkest pit. I mean, I think it says somewhere in Psalms, like, I was in the pit. I was in that moment where I was just like, I can't change this.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Yeah. I think uh Jonah in Jonah chapter two, and he's in the whale, uh-huh. And he or the fish, and he's he's praying, and he says, I um I was down at the roots of the mountains.

SPEAKER_04 36:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

The roots of the mountains in the pit. And I called to you and you answered me. And that is a theme, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Yeah. It's so real. And I mean, that's where I was, and I I just cried out to him, and the next thing I know, I feel these arms around me. And my husband looked at me and he said, I want what you have. Those words exactly. I want what you have.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

That fast.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

That's it. Took me home, put David in my arms. There was people sitting in our living room. I guess they were babysitting.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

So you're in the Jeep still.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

He's just said, I'm out.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Yeah, I'm out.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

I'm done.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

I'm done.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

And you have this moment where you're like, if you're real, I need Yes. And you feel I felt him with God's arms around me. And then your husband saw something in you.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Yeah. That's and I I think I said in that moment, I I remember very clearly what he said. He said, I want what you have. And I said, I'm never using again.

unknown 37:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

And he took me home and he put David in my arms. And the next morning I called the priest's wife, pastor's wife of that church, and I told her what happened. And I said, I believe I'm saved, but I want to make sure. And so I she said, get on your knees. And I had David in my arms, and I got on my knees and we prayed over the phone and prayed the prayer of salvation. And I have never touched another illegal drug ever since that moment.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Can you see that as like a picture in your mind? I can envision you on your knees with David.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

Oh, yes. I mean, I I can see it, remember it perfectly clearly. Yeah. I never withdrew, which myth withdrawal is something horrible, horrible, horrible.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

Supernatural.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

Yes. Never had that. And, you know, it was several, several months later that my husband and I went on a retreat and he accepted Christ. And so I thought, you know, here we go.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

And now you get to live happily.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Now I get to live happily ever since. Yes. Yes. And, you know, ready to have another baby. Because, you know, David's perfect. And so so we're like, oh yeah, got to go for number two. Have Adam. And then I get pregnant with John unexpectedly. Um, right after.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Good name. Good name. Good strong crazy name. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

And um, and then we get stationed in Okinawa, Japan.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

So I'm pregnant. We're going. I we've got the two.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Adventures.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

Yeah. And I'm like a new start. Let's do this.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

How are all the kids going to Japan?

SPEAKER_03 39:02

David's three, Adam's two, and John is in the belly.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Oh my goodness. What? Wow. That's a lot. But you've handled a lot. This is easy for us.

SPEAKER_03 39:12

Well, and I'm loving life at this point. I mean, we were we got very involved in the church. I started reading the Bible for the first time and like understanding the words that were they they came together.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Started, yeah, I could understand it. So you're you go to Japan.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

How was that experience?

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Japan itself was awesome, but the separation from our church home and from like being new Christians and like important is it to stay connected? Yeah. I started like I I started visiting every church on the island basically and trying to find something and was struggling. I was listening to at that point in my life, Joyce Myers on the I was why did I know it was Joyce Myers?

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Absolutely. Yeah, Battlefield of the Maj. Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 39:57

So I was watching that on TV because they had it on like PBS or something in Okinawa. And trying to read the word. And my husband starts hanging out with some friends at work that are a little bit different, party lifestyle. And he tells me one day, hey, I want to do things a little differently. I want us to get involved with these couples. And I was like, I can't. Like, we're Christians. Don't you remember what happened? Like, God really did this in our lives. And he was like, I won't be happy unless we do this. And one night in bed, I just close my eyes and I just said, God, I have to walk away from you because I want my husband. I want my children. And I can't do, I can't do this lifestyle and do this lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

More than anybody else I've ever talked to, I hear and I believe it that you you had these moments that feel like clear choices. Oh, that you for sure. That not a whole lot in your life happened.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

It just it didn't just happen.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Right. That you're going like, I remember this crossroads. I remember this point. I remember this was the moment this happened. Yeah. And I went this direction. And this was one of those moments where you go, I I made a clear choice of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

Yep. And so I chose that lifestyle and I started drinking for the first time, like really drinking.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

And I had to drink in order to live the lifestyle that my husband wanted to live.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

And it was so different.

SPEAKER_03 41:24

So different.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Like you're conservative Christian. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

Working out, running marathons, you know, spending every day.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

And a very different, yeah, completely different lifestyle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

And yeah. And so it wasn't very long after that that we ended up in like we have to take you have to take a certain amount of leave and you have to go back to the States.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

So we were going to do three more years in Japan. We loved it. Um but when we were home, he said, I don't want you to go back with me. I want a divorce. And so we only had a suitcase of stuff. And I was terrified that he was going to take the boys back to Japan without me. So I got my boys in the middle of the night and I got on a bus and I uh took a bus to San Antonio where my grandparents were.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

And another abandonment, another severe just severe severing of a relationship.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

Yeah.

unknown 42:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

So it's just you again.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Just me and the boys.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:35

And I thought my grandparents would help, would want us to stay. And they were like, oh my God, three boys. No, we cannot, you know. And it wasn't, they weren't trying to be ugly. They were older. They had already done.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Oh, yeah. I'm a new grandparent.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

And so I liked I liked having the screaming, screaming baby. A little bit passive. I enjoyed that part. Yeah, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

Yeah, I totally understand. I mean, we're talking now great grandkids, not right, you know. So, you know, they were they were not feeling it. My mom was not feeling it. So it was his mother that said, you can come stay with us in Georgia.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 43:15

So we did that. And we got on another bus and we went to Georgia. So three. One, two, and three. Or well, by that time, no, they were three, four, and five. No. When he left. Yeah. And so went to Georgia. And I hadn't worked for seven years. I was a stay-at-home mom. Okay. You know, and we were doing the Okinawa thing. And um, so I had to figure it out and get a job and get on welfare. And that was it was rough.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Uh yeah. Just very lost in that.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Yeah. Like the the Georgia's a new place for you too.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

Yeah. And his pa his mom was not thrilled really to have us. I mean, it was very hard. Um, very uncomfortable. And I was drinking, you know. And I was not only that, but I was grieving so hard because I loved him and I wanted this marriage. I wanted my kids to have their dad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

And was he having connection watchable?

SPEAKER_03 44:13

He he had to go back. So he had to go back to Japan.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

And, you know, there was like no way for us to work on things or from I, you know, in my heart of hearts, I wanted to fix things.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

I wanted everything to be okay. But he ended up marrying someone else over there. And by the time he got back, it was it was done.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

And it already started a new life.

SPEAKER_03 44:35

Yeah. And I think that had already kind of started. That was kind of like a catalyst, but it was heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

And so you're in Georgia for how long?

SPEAKER_03 44:44

Um, let's see. I guess two years. Okay. Two or three years. Yeah. Probably three years. But yeah, so I started working and and then I started meeting people in town. And again, God's hand, uh, I met these really great people. And I was working with the wife at a um real realtor's office doing like office management. And she said, you know, you really should work with my husband. He's doing tech support at this company. And I'm like, okay. So he hired me. And the day I got hired, they opened up a new like tech support um option. And it was doing special education support for North Carolina. Well, my ex-husband was stationed in North Carolina.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

And I was driving nine hours so that the boys could see their dad. And I was like, hmm, wonder why I'm working with North Carolina and driving to North Carolina. So after about six months of like getting to know the program, I called the uh the state of North Carolina. I said, Why are you outsourcing this? I could come work there.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

There we go.

SPEAKER_03 45:56

You wouldn't have to pay Georgia. And within a year, they hired me without ever seeing me. And, you know, in Georgia, the cost of living is so different. Like the economy is so different. We were living in a very small little town, barely making it. It was like $23,000 a year. And they offer me like a almost $50,000 contract. And I'm looking at this and I'm like, and I asked my my friend and my boss, I'm like, should I do this? And he's like, Are you crazy?

SPEAKER_02 46:26

No brainer.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

It's like, oh my gosh, now I have to like pack everything out and take the kids. And in the in the midst of this, working at this company, I had Isabel, my daughter. You know, I met somebody who had Isabel. And really, we were just, you know, friends. Like it wasn't like a thing. You know, we were we cared about each other, but it wasn't like a serious relationship.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Yeah. So you have four kids.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

So I have four kids. Brand new baby. And I pack up my little tiny car and move to North Carolina.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

And just don't know anything, anybody.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

Anything.

unknown 47:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Get a place.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Yeah. Well, my brother actually, he was stationed in um Fayetteville at the time. So I stayed with him for the first month until I got a paycheck. Then I got an apartment in Raleigh.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Recovering marriage is a game changer if you want to either save your marriage or simply strengthen it. If you want to take your marriage from good to great, or if your marriage is in real trouble, either way, recovering marriage can be extremely beneficial. One of the ways that you can use this resource, Recovering Marriage, is you can get involved in our online recovering marriage groups. You can plug into those groups at recoveryalive.com. Also, if your church wants to get a group started, you can get a hold of this book and our leadership material of how to run a recovering marriage group in your church. These groups take about 14 to 16 weeks. They're based on the 12 commitments of recovering marriage. And I'm telling you, so far, everything we've heard about these things, it is we are seeing marriages saved. We're seeing divorce papers being torn up, we're seeing recommitments, vow renewals. It's been absolutely epic what we've seen happen as people work through the 12 commitments of recovering marriage. We also are having weekend intensives. If your church is interested in having a full day intensive of recovering marriage, for us to come in and lead an entire day of working through the 12 commitments, we'd love to come to your church and your community and run one of those intensives. You can get all of this information at recoveryalive.com. You can go on Amazon and get this book as well if you just want to research it a little bit. The 12 commitments of recovering marriage are changing lives. Check it out today. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

As a matter of fact, driving here, I passed where we lived.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

Is that right? Is that nostalgic for you?

SPEAKER_03 49:12

A little bit of it's like I had to get out of Raleigh after the first year. I'm like, oh no, this is not for me. But Johnston County was a better fit.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

And you've been doing you said 17 years you worked for the state doing Yeah, that was uh 2006 when I moved here. Yeah, wow. And that there's very providential that God was involved in that as head.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

That work that you're doing now is yeah, epic in the in the tech world. But yeah, that was just all of it. Yeah, the onboarding of it. So you're in North Carolina.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

And I'm thinking like, okay, my promise to my husband was when we were together, it was like, if anything ever happened, I'll go where you go because I want the boys to have their dad.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 49:56

And so I thought this was going to be the the good thing. Like they were gonna be able to see their dad on weekends and that we'd have this, you know, co-parenting relationship at least.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Um kind of an optimist. Yeah. Yeah. You see, yeah. Even with all which is shocking, like how much you've been through, and you still have a lot of hope for things to go really well. Is that how you're built?

SPEAKER_03 50:21

I still, yeah, I guess so. I guess that's I guess that's one of the things that God has given me.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Yeah, I still think we're gonna be okay, we're gonna co-parent. It's gonna work out that way.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

No. No, no. He, you know, he ended up getting out of the Marine Corps and became addicted to opioids.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Oh my.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

And I really didn't understand that or know anything about that.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

Um, at that time. And so they the VA was mailing him like 90 at a time. You know, and I was still struggling on and off with alcoholism.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

And the VA is where that fifth vital sign got pulled in of the pain scale, where it was the only subjective vital sign where everything else was, you know, you can take your blood pressure and we can see the number, or you can check your pulse, you see the number.

SPEAKER_04 51:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

But I'm a 10 on the pain scale. I can say it every single time, and you had to address it. Right. And the VA is who introduced that. And so he's uh is it was he going through some some pain?

SPEAKER_03 51:26

Is that where like you had some not that I know of, you know, that you know, there was no there was no deployments or anything like that that I know of. So, you know, I don't want to tell his story. I understand.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

I'm just wondering how how that we didn't we didn't was the diagnosis that get got him those 90 pills, you know, had to be something where he's just like I'm in pain somehow.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Yeah, that's the the the that that period of time it was a free-for-all.

SPEAKER_03 51:54

Yeah. Oh, it was and and he he just fell right into that, you know, and unfortunately, and you know, and then his wife didn't really want anything to do with the boys, and so, but I kept pushing, you know, and I look back at that time and I think, you know, I just thought, no matter what, they need their dad. And I kept seeing the dad that he was, not the I the potential I refused to see what was in front of me. What was in front of me, yeah. And so I kept pushing and I kept pushing and you know, would make the boys go. And you know, eventually it came to the point where um she wouldn't allow them to come except for one at a time, or or you know, so they experienced some rejection. Oh, bad, bad, bad, bad. It was awful, you know. And um, I think when David was like 11 or 12, I caught him looking at porn on the computer, and I freaked out and I was like, We're calling your dad. And he's like, Well, bring him and he could stay with me. And so that started the back and forth. Oh, but it was only David, you know, and not the the he wasn't accepting of Adam or John, and there's a whole more story there. But at that point, it was like, I'll take David. Yeah. Well, then David would call and say, Mom, things are not going well here. And so I'd go get him. And so that started a whole that's cycle, yes, cycle. And I was still like, I would fall into alcoholism again and again, and then I would come out of it and I'd be sober for a year or two. And then something would happen, and I would think I would, I could, I can drink socially, yeah, or I can, you know, so it was always functional.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Yeah. But and besides that therapy you had as a child, you were not. There was no counseling, no.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

I thought I could be the counselor. Yeah, I didn't need counseling. I was going to school for counseling and that means so yeah, I would this whole time I'm going to Liberty University, getting my master's in counseling. Yeah, I had to start school because I was working for the Department of Public Instruction and I needed a degree if I was going to keep this job.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

And so I got my help all the screwed up people.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Right. I I know everything there is to know about. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

Because I've been through it.

SPEAKER_03 54:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

So the kids are getting to be teenagers. Uh you're still struggling with some alcohol issues. And um when did things start happening with with David where you saw some, was it was it early on that you saw some uh addiction issues with him?

SPEAKER_03 54:29

Never saw addiction issues with David. Never. No, his were really mental health related. You know, he struggled with his weight, just like I did. His brothers and sisters were all very fit, thin, you know, but David really struggled with his weight. Um, he started getting in trouble at school. Okay. He very, very bright, very smart, but just would not, he didn't have that um mechanism that people have to tell you like there's a consequence for your behavior.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 54:58

And even if you told him, like, hey, if you touch the stove, it's gonna burn you.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

He's gonna touch the stove. He's gonna touch the stove. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Yeah. And then he's so sorry that he touched the stove and he'll tell you you love genuinely. Yes. It's just heart of gold, sweet, but just could not follow a rule. So we started by the time he was in high school, I was changing his schools. Took him out of West and put him into like a charter school. That did not work out. He, I mean, he literally could walk to my work. So I would take him to school and then he would walk to my work after school. And I thought, okay, this is gonna be great. Like we're gonna be able to keep track. No, he was ditching school, he was hiding in the in the rafters with smoking pot. And I'm like, okay, it wasn't necessarily addiction issues. It was like, I'll do anything that, you know, if somebody gives me something, I'm gonna do it. Yeah, you know, and so that's pure pressure, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:55

Yeah, and he's uh battling some mental health issues and um for sure. You're watching this and feeling powerless. Adam and John.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Adam and John are doing well. Yeah, you know, uh Adam's uh at this point, I think he was a freshman. And when Adam became a freshman, he just straightened up his life.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 56:14

In middle school, he was the class clown. I was getting calls every day. When he went into high school, he decided he wanted sports. They were always into sports, and so we were doing doing uh baseball at night and things like that. But yeah, he he straightened up. John is doing well, very smart, but he's always the cool kid and like you know, he he was one that would like take the candy and stuff from the house and sell it on the bus. Very entrepreneurial.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

So he's default and be like, hey, hey, that's kind of impressive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:52

But you know, it just seemed like there was a lot going on at all times. Oh my god. You know, oh yeah, you know insane. Yeah. So David, he was back and forth but again between me and his dad. Yeah. And uh he did try to take his life one time with um taking like his dad's well butrin and some other things, like all at once.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

How old was he when he took away?

SPEAKER_03 57:13

He was 16, I think. And so that opened some doors. We go, thank God he lived through that. Um, but it opened some doors for counseling.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

And he ended up coming home with us and he had intensive in-home. So we had somebody coming in at several times a week, and um we thought that was gonna be like really, really good for him. And it was, I think that would have been been helpful for him. Um, but um, I don't remember why, but he ended up going back to his dad's. Uh I think at that point my husband was like, he had done some things and he was like, I can't. Oh, he slit the tires on his brother's truck.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:54

And so I think my husband was like, he can't live here.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

So he ended up going back to his dad's, getting in more I think his dad kicked him out too, and he ended up on the streets basically.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

And how old at that point?

SPEAKER_03 58:07

17 got in with a group of kids that were breaking into cars across Onslow County. And when they got caught, because he's David, he told the detective about every single car he ever broke into. And like places, and so he was charged with like 12 or 13 felonies. And so he's 17 and in jail uh and stayed in jail until he was almost 19. And then when they finally let him out, it was on it was only on pretrial release. And so he he came uh back to we went back to his dad's and then he ended up living with some friends in Fayetteville. And at that point, he started calling me and saying at different times, he's like, mom, I'm not feeling good, like I'm not sleeping well. And I'm trying to like give him all the advice I can as a mom, like, okay, are you eating right? Are you drinking enough? You know, you need to get a job. You know, trying to give him like life skill advice and not knowing and not really understanding that he was severely depressed. And I think that, you know, him calling me and telling me like I can't sleep and looking back at pictures, I can see the dark circles under his eyes and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Um you just don't know how to help. No, you don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

No. Well, I'm thinking you need to like and I think from my own experience, I think people should be able to pull pull it together.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

I was gonna actually mention that is that you you your solutions were the ones that worked for you. Right. The solutions you're gonna give him are the ones that worked for you, where you're like, man, you just gotta suck it up, you gotta work harder. Exactly. But something very different was happening with David and his mental health was overwhelming him, and it was just something you hadn't really.

SPEAKER_03 59:57

I really didn't get it. Yeah. And even though he had attempted before, I still didn't see I felt like that was not serious. Right. I didn't see it the way I I should have at the time. Well, well, yeah, you know, but yourself. I mean, I don't say that in the in the sense that I take responsibility, but you know, you look back at those conversations and you think, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

That's part of the grieving process. Yeah. Oh, we start talking about the stage Kubler Ross's stages of grief. And one of those is that bargaining. And part of that bargaining is going, if I would have, then maybe this would be different.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:36

And uh crushing. I mean, I I went through crushing guilt with him.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

So 19.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:42

19. He's on pretrial release. He has to go back to court, and he calls me and he says, you know, uh, you actually texted me and he's like, Mom, he did everything right, everything's great. He called me, he's happy, uh, driving around in car, and uh, and we were just having a great conversation. And he said, Um, court didn't happen today, but it's gonna happen tomorrow, you know. So I'm gonna have to stay at dad's. And I was like, Are you sure you wanna stay there? Why don't you just come home? Uh he said, No, I'll just stay, it'll be fine. He said, I'll call you in the morning. And I got a call at three o'clock in the morning that he had taken all of his dad's um oxyodone and he was gone. And that was like the probably hardest moment I've ever experienced, even even since then. That moment was just I've never felt so much pain and guilt and grief and just I couldn't be there with him. I drove down as fast as I could. I had to wake up my kids, put everybody in the car and drive down there, and they wouldn't let me see him or get close to him. And um, I just I didn't know what to what to do, you know, and I didn't have anybody to tell me like what really happened because I didn't trust the people that he was with or the story that they were giving me. And so I didn't know, you know, and not that not knowing was really hard. But when I looked back later and saw what he texted me and the way that he phrased things, I almost felt like he knew what he was gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

You know, that he had a plan and but how that lack of understanding putting pieces together, and Frida talked about that too, just not knowing is crushing.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

Yeah. Well, I felt 100% responsible.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:41

I I was his mom, and I thought about all the mistakes I made during his life, all the choices I made, all the times I got angry, you know, and didn't understand it. Yeah, that's his I mean I could not breathe. I could not take it. Yeah. I remember standing in the hotel room because we had to stay down there and I was waiting to see him, and I was looking out at the ocean and just thinking, God, I cannot do this. I cannot take this. It's too heavy. I can't do it. And he did, like God did lift some of it, but it took way longer, like probably six months of just I think I dove as deep into alcoholism as I've ever been. Um, I drank every day and I couldn't get drunk enough. There were moments where I sat in my car with my husband's gun, and I thought, if I can just end it, you know. Um but I was afraid that they would have to find me.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:42

That's what kept you from.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

Yeah. I didn't want them to have to find me. But I just wanted to be with him. You know what I mean? Like because I I couldn't make things better and I couldn't change like how things were.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:57

Grief is unless you've really experienced it, it's just the overwhelming suffocating, like you saying, I can't breathe. It's just indescribable.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

And everybody's different. And for you, you couldn't imagine life.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:16

No, no, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

Without him in life to have to think about all of these things.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

I didn't ever think that would change, like that feeling would change.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:26

Well, six months. What what helped you what was at the end of that six months? There's time.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:33

And I had another one of those moments where I'm in my recliner in my room and I was drinking and I couldn't get drunk anymore. I couldn't sleep. And I'm like, I knew God wanted me to put it down. But I told him I cannot. And I was upset and I was angry at God, and I told him, I cannot put this down. So if you want it, you have to take it, or please kill me. Because at that point I had been drinking so much that I could feel in my liver when I would drink. I it hurt. And I told you know, so I was hoping that means I'm drinking myself to death.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:11

So you were slowly trying to kill yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:14

I just didn't want to have to do it like outright.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

Um, and it wasn't a few days later I got a call from my doctor because I had been going through this weight loss surgery program at the base. And I called them and I told them when David died, I'm like, I need out of this program. There's no way I'm gonna pass a psych eval, you know, so that I don't need to keep coming to all these appointments. And the lady um was the PA that ran the program. She's like, I want you to keep coming. Just please keep coming. So I got a call like three days later, and they said you're approved for surgery. And the doctor said you have to be on five weeks clear liquids. And I'm telling you, God will use anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

Anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:00

And you remember way back when my catalyst for using meth was my weight.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

That's interesting. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

And so here I am. And I told my husband, I said, you know, they want me to do five weeks clear liquids to do this surgery. And I guess my liver was so big that it that's why they had me on such a long program. And he said, I'll do it with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

And so we did. And honestly, at that time, I thought, I'll probably go back to drinking. But during that time, during that five weeks.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Because vodka is a clear liquid.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:35

Right, right. Well, I thought, you know, after the surgery, I can surgery a little bit. Um, but during that five weeks, I had a moment to just like really start digging in, praying, and God started like walking me through literally the 12 steps without doing a program.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

Really?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

Like I had to just start praying and talking to him and digging into my word. And my husband was right there with me alongside of me. And things just started to change. And I can't say there was like a there was the moment in the chair, but it was gradual. It's a process. Yeah, it was gradual. And so, you know, and then once, you know, we got through the surgery and everything, about six months later, I was in DC. I had a trip to go on for work, and I'm all by myself, and I'm in a hotel room, and I'm like, I could go get some wine, and nobody would know. And very clearly I heard in my spirit, I'll know I'm with you.

unknown 1:07:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:40

And I was like, I get it. Like, God is really with me all the time. And I called Pat and I was like, I'm never drinking again. I understand it. I get it. I don't have to do this. Like, God is with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:54

Emmanuel. God with us. So Pat. Awesome. Yeah. When did you all get married?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:06

Oh, yeah. I kind of skipped away.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:07

It's okay. So you but yeah, what a big thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:10

Yeah, I guess when you was like when Dave was like 11 or 12, I met Pat at our church.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:15

What a blessing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:16

Yeah. Uh one of the he's he's really been through it. He's really been through it with us.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:22

But I'm just a wonderful person. Yeah, yeah. So you're in a have had sobriety from drugs in the past, now sobriety from alcohol, through the grief. When are when is the Joko Angels?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:41

When did when did that? And you know how we do this. We go, when I remember Recovery Live the first time I started thinking about it. I remember the moment. Like I was in my garage at my house during COVID. I remember the moment, like when those words came into my head. Do you remember it when that seed started to get planted of thinking I want to do something with what's gone on in my life? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:09

Yeah, it was random. Like, because you know, after the whole I'm not drinking anymore, then I'm um met up with one of my friends who's a counselor, Anisia Lee, and she was like, Hey, you probably need to do some grief therapy. I'm like, Well, I really don't need to, but I have a friend that just or I had met somebody that had just lost her son. I'm like, she probably does. So we'll go together.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:30

I'll take her because she really needs it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:33

So we went and we did um grief therapy with Pam Curis, and it was, you know, awesome to go through that whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

What was the most important part of that process?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:44

The the actual realizing that I did need it, realizing that busting through the denial.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:49

Yeah. Because that is that first stage in grief. And people are like, Well, it's usually linear, is what they think.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:56

But no, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:57

It can be like you can have denial, anger, go back to denial, go to depression. You might have a little bit of acceptance and be all the way back.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

But you're a year plus into this thing, and you're still I'm still thinking I denial.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:10

Yeah. Well, I've I'm thinking God's working on me, like He's doing this. Yeah, I don't need a another human. I don't know that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

That's so important for what we do. It's like, I got God, I'm good.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

But there was some healing today.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:24

That James, confess your sin struggles one to another, and you'll be healed.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:28

Yeah. But I didn't trust people, you know, and I had a reason why. You know, and I didn't think that anybody would really truly understand me or my story. And but I realized that that's not what counseling's about. You know, counseling's about being able to just have someone else to facilitate that conversation and work through those things and allow you to work through those things.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:53

And so much harder for someone who's been self-sufficient and pull yourself up and figure this out. I've relied on other people and they failed me. Right. So somebody's watching this right now and they're like, that's me. I don't trust people because they haven't come through. If I put my life in their hands, they're gonna hurt me. And so I know how to heal myself. I have God. What else do I need? And this is so important to this process to go, there is just something about having someone else in that with you, not to give you advice or but just or even be your best friend. It's really just facilitate the process, sit with you, tell you, hey, and validate it, it makes sense to them. Powerful.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:34

And that busted you through that. It really did. I need this.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:37

Yes. Yeah. So we did that. And uh Anisia came around and at the end of that, and she's like, I am doing a forum in Benson, and it's about drug addiction, and it's about bringing uh police to resources in the community together. And I just want people to start talking because apparently at that time she was starting to see like it issues with in the drug community. And I didn't have any idea why she was inviting me.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:05

Because you're I'm just somebody who's grieving the loss of a son.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:11

And I told her, like, why do you want my story? Like, because yes, David died from an overdose, but it technically was suicide. She said, You need to come and you need to speak. Okay. So I went and I gave my testimony as it was at the time. And I met these people, these other women who had either lost a child or um had um been through addiction or you know, mental health issues. And so in that moment, I realized like the theme that ran through it is that we were all searching for resources at one time. I remember calling the National Alliance of Mental Health and saying, they're gonna release my son from this program. I need help. 800 numbers. And so we were, we I realized that there was a theme. And I'm like, okay, do you guys want to get together and like create some local resources? And that's all it was. Yeah. Just like make a list. And they were like, yeah. So we met at Bojangles, and the next thing you knew, it was Joko Angels.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:15

Good things happen at Bojangles.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:18

It's not the Lord's chicken, but it might be.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:22

It's pretty special. So I don't think it's the devil's chicken. I eat so much of it. Uh Frida said the same thing, and she's just said there was just such a lack of resource, these huge, gigantic gaps. And you're just part of the struggle with grief or dealing with somebody, you know, trying to love someone who's an act is just I don't have yeah. What what's what's my next step? People are going, I don't know how to help you if you don't have insurance, or if you know, that's just you have to learn right how to navigate those resources. And so what a what a gift Joko Angels has has become. And you um that was 2007.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:03

That was um David died in 17. That was probably a beginning of uh 19, end of 18. So you know, we had the year of you know, going through.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:12

So this has been uh about seven years of Joko Angels, and you guys have been continuing to talk about all the services that you guys have provided. And a lot of it's just fundraising.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:26

Well, we don't do a lot of fundraising, actually. We only do like one thing a year for fundraising, and that was not our intent to begin with at all. So, like I said, we were gonna do a list of resources and we were thinking we'd give them to police officers to keep in their car and EMS and so that people would know where to go for help. So we met and and there was a lady there that had was actually on the emergency management on a she was an EMT. And she's like, guess what? We have a list. We just started this. And I was like, Okay, well, check off that. And I said, Well, maybe we need to like reach out to the school system and see if they want to hear because kids aren't being taught about what's out there, right? And so I wrote a letter, and you know, having the education, uh working with education at the time, it it made it easy for me to reach out and find these resources. And so I wrote a letter, and I at the end of the letter, I listed all of the kids that we knew of that had passed away from an overdose and what school they went to in Johnston County. And I sent it off to the school board and they said, Can you come talk to us? So we went in and we we told them our story and we said what we wanted to do, and they said you're approved right then and there. So that was like, okay, this is our purpose. We're gonna go talk to kids. And so we started doing that. And then people kept saying, like, we want to give you money. And we're like, we don't, we don't need any money, we're not doing anything with money. But eventually I was like, okay, well, let me go ahead and start a 501c3 so we can manage this correctly. And then we met Hope Center. We met Mark, we went to, we went to a retreat with Hope Center Ministries. So good. And God really showed me in that moment, in that time, like that David's life had a purpose and that I was able to honor him and you know see him in these guys that were going into recovery and walk alongside them and just it was really um healing for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:26

Yeah, and the end of the grieving process is that acceptance. It's never I talked to people in my therapy practice about this word acceptance, how important that word acceptance is, because it's not I am as good as I was when David was alive, or I can I can get to a place of complete heal. You're always gonna have a whole.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:53

The world's not gonna look the same since David left this world. And so acceptance is accepting all of that. Right. And and to be able to take all of that pain and turn it into something that has like you're seeing has this this bearing this fruit in these other young folks' lives is is I think just such a gift to that acceptance piece to go like I I can that's a hard word, isn't it? Yeah. I can accept it. This thing I can't change in a way that is like I can see God's hand and his purpose in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:32

It's so real though. I mean, that's and it, you know, I think being through what I've been through now, like sometimes I think I I fear that because I do have an acceptance of death, that people think that I'm cold or like I don't have the same kind of feelings that other people have, you know. Um, but I do. It's just it's different because I I understand differently now, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:00

Well you I I wanna I definitely want to touch on that. I want you're saying something that I think as we're we're start starting to wrap this up, that you've recently experienced just another level of grief. Yeah. Um John.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:21

Yeah. What I remember. I remember seeing that and going this lady.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:37

How much more can a person experience, you know? And so that was how long ago?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:47

It's we're coming up on three years next time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:51

And um can you talk about John a little bit and what what happened?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:56

Yeah, I mean, losing John was like the exact opposite of losing David, I will say that. You know, um, I came to Recovery Live on December 31st. It was like December 31st, January 1st.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:12

And I got down on my face because I was so scared for John. John had been struggling for several years.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:20

And he was spiraling that night. And um his fiance, Sam, was calling me and saying, you know, he's gonna kill himself. And I was, I remember I'm driving to Recovery Live to meet someone there to help her. Yeah. And I'm telling Sam, like, Sam, God is in control of this. John cannot take his life without God's permission. And I I know that that's hard for you to hear right now, but I truly believe that. And inside I'm like freaking out. But I'm trying to like comfort her.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:53

Right. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:54

So I get there and I'm standing there, and um, it was Casey's night to speak.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:58

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:00

And the song was, um, I think you were singing it was he's jealous for me. And it was like, and I just remember like being pulled to the altar and just laying John down and writing his name on that chip and just saying, like, God, whatever it takes, you do whatever it takes. Just please don't take him. And John that night, and he didn't kill himself, but what he did was he tried to rob somebody and with a knife. And um, he ended up running away, but there was pictures and like stay on Jacko report, and I reached out to him. I'm like, honey, you've got to turn yourself in. And eventually he did, and that started like six months of seeing John for who John was. Yeah, you know what I mean? He got into Hope Center, he was sober, he was just I got to experience every single day with him. He when he was in jail, he was calling me back to back to back to back because you know it's 15 minutes. So he walked, yeah, call you right back. But it was like, you know, it was John, yeah, it was John, and like I was writing in prayers every day, like for John and and writing in my journal. And it was like God was answering every prayer as it was coming, you know what I mean? Everything for him. And of course, we had Juliet too on the weekends, John's daughter, and it was just beautiful, and got to see him be baptized at the restored table, accept Christ, like restore relationship with Pat, which was one of the things that was like really painful and scary for us. It was to watch it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:42

But things were right. And I mean, he decided that he was gonna leave Hope Center because he wanted to work and provide. Um, and I don't know, you know, I don't know why. I don't know what happened. I still don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:57

But somehow I believe somebody delivered something to our house. And um I think it was just that one time, really, and we lost him.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:08

And that's what we see with overdose deaths is that sobriety. And then you just can't use like you can't.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:17

And it, you know, he was a fentanyl user. It wasn't a it wasn't an accident, you know, he knew what he was doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:23

But you have that drug naivety.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:27

I don't I don't have the tolerance that I had before, but you think right.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:32

And we ha you know, the hardest part about losing John is that we had those talks. Yeah. And when I say that um it's 100% different, is that when John died, is even though like the the hole that I have in my heart, especially not just for me, but for Juliet, um, is will never go away.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:54

But I had no regrets for the first time. Like I knew that he knew. And I knew that he tr he also loved me. You know what I mean? And we had those, God gave us six months of just like healing anything in the past. And so that the difference in how I grieved, like I remember getting the call and walking into his room and just like getting on my knees and just thanking God for what he gave us.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:26

And just touching his face and just like, you know, Pat's right beside me, and we're praying in that room in that moment. And I couldn't believe it, you know. But peace just was in our home. It was over our house in my daughter. Like, you know, she's 16 at the time and just had her wisdom teeth out, and it was a lot. And, you know, we talk about things that I've experienced, like watching her have to walk through and see all of this throughout her life, you know, is like, but God has has just been there. And so yeah, the grief is is different. It was crushed, and like it's I've told my other son several times, Adam. I've told him like it's I sometimes feel guilty because I miss John so much, but I think I have like accepted David, and I'm having a harder time like understanding like why we had to lose John, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:28

I don't think that um as a therapist there's anything harder than having a conversation about um why this thing happened especially as a Christian therapist or a therapist who's a Christian, is that I have these moments where the the client or whatever is going like you're a Christian. Tell me why would God allow something like this to happen? And your response is incredible and real to say I still sit here and go, I don't I don't know that I can wrap my head around. It's just harder for me to accept. But yet your response was I was on my knees with my husband, and there was a peace that passed understanding in my home.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:33

That's just God's word's true. It's real, it's true. Like he what whatever he says, he's gonna do, and he has done that in our lives.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:41

And your emotions are real and your struggle, which we see, I think I I there's so much of the Bible that's like I don't I just it's hard to grasp, but when you see the the humanity of the weeping prophet of Jeremiah, just like frustration and Job's frustration, it's just it's relatable and to be like, I don't I don't get it. I don't know why, I don't but I do trust you. That's what I've heard you say, just I trust you. Yeah, that's amazing. And um what a gift that you are to everybody that gets to be uh exposed to your story, to your ministry. And I wanna I want to close with what you said is I I think that's so real when you said I I don't want people to think I'm cold.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:40

I almost feel like any response you have to any of this is complete you do whatever you gotta do, Kelly. But I get that part, it's just like how do I respond to other people's responses? Isn't that a part of the whole thing? Especially as public as you are, it's like your your grief is very exposed, right? Because of what you do. How hard is that part? That's what's amazing to me is how much you've put yourself out there, is uh of course it's this inspiring thing. And then John passes and you on I don't know how to say unfortunately, people are watching.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:27

And you're going like, I don't want people to see me and think this kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:31

It was, yeah. Yeah, that was it was a real struggle. And I like, I actually reached out to a counselor about it, a close friend of mine, because I thought, you know, I'm feeling this and I know like God is real.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:44

I'm feeling peace. I'm feeling things I don't understand, you know. But at the same time, I'm in the middle of the night, I'm I'm up at three o'clock in the morning and I'm hurting, you know. Honestly. God took my tears a while back, and I haven't cried in a long time, like had a real moment of crying. That part has been rough because you know, I see other people who have lost their children, and they're um they're able to like express that visually. And so, you know, I just had to come to terms with the fact that you know, God has used me and my story, and He has a reason for that, and for whatever reason, He hasn't allowed me to fall apart, you know, and there's something in that that maybe I don't understand that it helps people, and they still, just like my husband looking at me and saying, I want what you have, there's there's still those moments where people will say, I don't know how you have this, but I want it, and all I can point them to is Jesus. You know, that's all there's nothing about me. So, and I think that's there's something about Jesus. Well, there's something I think is you know, I I believe it's him. You know, I believe that he gives it to us, like even the faith part, you know, it says in the word that he gives the measure of faith. And so I just like want to share that with people, and it's it can be awkward and it can be hard, and I think that but again that's that's real.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:16

It is real. You're real, you're amazing. Thank you for spending this time. And um man, if this doesn't inspire you, I don't let to say the your wood's wet. If it doesn't fire yet, to to say that you have gone through more than I even knew about and um are sitting here saying I trust God. Yeah that um there's purpose and pain. You continue to grow, you continue to help other people. Thank you. It's uh it's beyond inspiring. It's it's it's uh it's evidence that God is who he says he is. You're you are the evidence for sure. So thanks for hanging out with us. It's a lot to share, huh? Yeah, and uh we're we're very grateful that you poured out. So it says Living on Incline. I'm John Eklund. Please hit the subscribe button, all the good things, and um and we just uh so grateful again for Kelly and all those who come hang out with us and uh check out our next episode in a couple of weeks. And thanks for joining us. Hey, thanks again for joining us on Living on Incline, sponsored by Recovery Life. Would you do us a favor and just hit that subscribe button, share with your friends? And again, we want to explore our full God-given potential and see what we are capable of. So, again, hit that subscribe button and thank you so much for joining us on Living on Incline.