#023 How to Fix a Broken Prison System | Kurtis Taylor & Lateisha Thrash

Why is life after prison so incredibly difficult, and why do 83% of formerly incarcerated individuals end up back in the system? In this powerful episode, we dive deep into the raw realities of prison reentry, recidivism statistics, and what it actually takes to rebuild a life from scratch.

We are joined by executive leaders Kurtis Taylor and Lateisha Thrash, who share their deeply personal stories of transformation, faith, and humility. From overcoming the stigma of incarceration to fighting for systemic criminal justice reform, this conversation exposes the flaws in the current system and highlights the "organic reentry" models that are dropping recidivism rates to 10% or less.

If you want to understand the true meaning of redemption, surrender, and what it takes to change prison culture, this is an episode you cannot afford to miss.


TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Introduction: The Reality of Reentry
02:15 - The Staggering Statistics on Recidivism
05:40 - Kurtis Taylor’s Story: From Incarceration to Executive Leadership
11:10 - Lateisha Thrash on "Organic Reentry" & Breaking the Stigma
17:45 - "When You Make It Hard to Do What’s Right"
24:30 - How the Bob Barker Foundation Grantees Achieved a 10% Recidivism Rate
31:15 - The Power of Faith, Humility, and Surrender in Recovery
38:00 - Changing Prison Culture from the Inside Out
44:25 - How You Can Support Reentry Programs & Justice Reform
52:10 - Final Thoughts & Closing Remarks

---

RESOURCES & LINKS MENTIONED

Learn More About the Bob Barker Foundation: Discover how Kurtis Taylor and his team work nationwide to reduce recidivism, eliminate reentry stigma, and support justice-impacted individuals.
👉 [https://www.bobbarkerfoundation.org](https://www.bobbarkerfoundation.org)

Explore NC Department of Adult Correction (DAC) Reentry Services: Learn about North Carolina's Reentry 2030 initiative, Local Reentry Councils (LRC), and community support partnerships led by Director Lateisha Thrash.
👉 [https://www.dac.nc.gov/divisions-and-sections/rehabilitation-and-reentry/transition-services](https://www.dac.nc.gov/divisions-and-sections/rehabilitation-and-reentry/transition-services)

Host or Join a Reentry Simulation: Walk in the shoes of someone returning home from incarceration to truly understand the systemic barriers they face. For information on NCDAC-sponsored simulations, contact Director Lateisha Thrash at Lateisha.Thrash@dac.nc.gov.
👉 [https://www.dac.nc.gov/divisions-and-sections/rehabilitation-and-reentry/upcoming-reentry-simulations](https://www.google.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dac.nc.gov%2Fdivisions-and-sections%2Frehabilitation-and-reentry%2Fupcoming-reentry-simulations)

Discover Recovery Alive: Find out more about the faith-based recovery program and campus partnerships mentioned by Lateisha Thrash that provide holistic care and long-term reentry housing.
👉 [https://www.recoveryalive.com](https://www.google.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.recoveryalive.com)

Listen to More Episodes of Living on Incline: Check out the full catalog of powerful stories dedicated to personal growth, healing, and moving through life's toughest obstacles.
👉 [https://www.livingonincline.com](https://www.google.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.livingonincline.com)



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#PrisonReentry #Recidivism #CriminalJusticeReform #RedemptionStory #PrisonReform #InspirationalStories #FaithAndRecovery

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:00

You may not know what this means, but selling dummies was was an occupation of mine. That means selling counterfeit, crack cocaine, um, counterfeiting anything for that matter. And I was a master at it. And I know people who sold just one dummy, just did it once, and they're no longer with us as a result. Or they're in a wheelchair for life, paralyzed. Um, I did it for years. So December 23rd, two days before Christmas, um, I had lost my house, my job, my car, my family. I'd lost my mind. And um, you know, I some people can relate to this. I couldn't get high.

SPEAKER_06 0:37

The director of all re-entry in North Carolina. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_06 0:42

That's kind of a big deal. Yeah, a little bit. Executive director of the Bob Barker Foundation. Both of you very focused on re-entry services, reducing recidivism. Letisha, you you started out as a um as a guard.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

I started out as a correction officer. Officer, yeah. Um, actually, one year out of college and got hired at Central Prison at the age of 22.

SPEAKER_06 1:07

Were you in um maximum security?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Male maximum security.

SPEAKER_06 1:11

What were you seeing?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

One of the things was is that a lot of men were left behind, no family, and then I saw a lot of mental illnesses.

SPEAKER_05 1:19

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Um, and substance use issues. Not as much as it is now today, but it was it was definitely incorrect. But now it's worse now.

SPEAKER_06 1:30

National Institute of Justice estimates that 68% of released prisoners are rearrested within three years.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Yeah, that's about right.

SPEAKER_06 1:36

79% are rearrested within six years. And a staggering 83% are rearrested within nine years. That's not good. That is not okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:51

That's buttons. When you when you keep making it real hard to do what's right, you make it super easy to do what's wrong. A man, an individual for that matter, is gonna do what they have to do to survive. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

You can't have a cookie-cutter re-entry plan for everyone because it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_06 2:09

Uh, I think a big part of what we're trying to overcome with recovery, and I'm sure incarceration is just shame. Was that part of your experience?

SPEAKER_07 2:17

Major. Shame almost killed me. So the sooner we stop looking down our nose at people and judging people and um holding people accountable to their worst mistake in life for the rest of time, then the better off our our entire society is going to be. Well said.

SPEAKER_06 2:53

There are all kinds of reasons why we struggle, and there aren't a lot of resources out there at times when we need immediate help. Yes, there are therapists, yes, there are psychiatrists, but sometimes those waiting lists are long, and just to reach out to somebody, it can be overwhelming. And so I want to recommend to you Recovery Alive. Recovery Alive is this faith-based program that you can immediately engage with a community of people who are going to love you and walk you through your struggle. One of the first things you want to do if you want to get involved in this program is get a hold of the Recovery Alive handbook. You can work on this handbook one-on-one with one safe and supportive person. Or you could get online, uh, recoveryalive.com, and get into some of our communities. We have groups of gender-specific recovery 12-step processes that you can walk through with safe and supportive people. Connect to those folks. Or maybe you're somebody who is trying to get out of a difficult situation, whether you've come out of a rehabilitation uh clinic or we have folks who are coming out of jails and prisons, we have recovery alive homes, safe transition homes. We have all kinds of programming to help you. But if you're watching this or listening to Living on Incline, connect with Recovery Alive. Get a hold of this book, get a hold of maybe one safe and supportive person. Check out our online programming and get the help that you need and get it today. You don't have to suffer alone. Please like and share, and do all that kind of stuff. Thank you both for coming out here. I'm kind of in shock that you guys took time out of your because I know how I don't know how busy you all are. The director of all re-entry in North Carolina. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_06 5:07

That's kind of a big deal. Yeah. A little bit. Executive director of the Bob Barker Foundation. Both of you very focused on re-entry services, reducing recidivism. And I want to start, I'm just gonna right out the gate. Y'all okay with this? All right, let's let's get it. Let's go. Right out the gate on the Bob Barker Foundation webpage. Listen to these statistics. We're not gonna do a bunch of statistics, but I this made my jaw, made your jaw drop. When we're thinking about this right now, the National Institute of Justice estimates that 68% of released prisoners are rearrested within three years. 79% are rearrested within six years, and a staggering 83% are rearrested within nine years. That's not good. That is not okay. That's pretty bad. Because of the uh organizations like Bob Barker Foundation, because of your efforts, uh Bob Barker, we're seeing that the foundation grantee average, and you guys have a bunch of people that you're providing grants for re-entry. Yep. Because of these folks, the average recidivism is 10% and even less. 10% and less. And I said, man, that's that's real. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 6:36

And John didn't say it, but Recovery Alive is one of those programs.

SPEAKER_06 6:39

Well, you know, I'd rather you say yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:42

Well, I'll shout it.

SPEAKER_06 6:43

Well, that's what we that's what we're trying to do. And and um, so again, thank you both uh for joining us. We want to talk a little bit about your stories, how you guys got to be doing what you're doing, and um your heart for not just the work. Is it is it okay if I say like the ministry? Absolutely. Yes, it is. You guys are both folks who believe uh that that that God is in this work and he has to be in this work and so thank you for doing it unapologetically. And uh you guys know each other. How do y'all know when did you all you you guys seem like you're connected, man?

SPEAKER_00 7:18

When do y'all we could we actually met each other? It was many years ago at Wake Correctional.

SPEAKER_07 7:22

We met over a cold bowl of soup at Wake Correctional. No, I'm just playing. Yeah, when I um when I initially uh came home from incarceration myself um in 2004, um it wasn't too long after that that I became the re-entry coordinator for Oxford Houses. Okay. And uh and so I spent uh many days in the offices of of weight correctional, where Miss Thrash was the superintendent. And uh she basically treated me as if I was one of her staff or one of her one of her peers would probably be a better way to say it. Never any judgment. Um, just always just kind of uh just that the warmest welcome that you could think about receiving inside of a prison setting. And I came in and out of those office buildings as if I worked there. That's awesome. What was he like back then?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Really, he came in very passionate. I mean, he was a passionate dude. He was down to earth just like he is now. And um, but I could see the passion, you know, I could see his heart um for people um returning back to help those who were still incarcerated to help them be successful. That's awesome. Um so with seeing that, I was like, let's let's team up together and let's do this work.

SPEAKER_06 8:34

You can see it when someone authentically wants to do something and to give back. And that's been Curtis from the start.

SPEAKER_07 8:41

You guys can't see it right now because of my skin color, but I am blushing profusely.

SPEAKER_06 8:45

But well, I hope man, I uh if I can do anything, it's to to highlight the work that you all do, not because of just the positions that you hold, but the people that you are. And uh between what uh we've seen you guys hanging out with us at RecoveryCon, um, the work that you have done with Recovery Live, just showing up for this. Um it's it's something that's it makes it very clear and obvious you're in it for the right reasons that you your motives are beautiful. Um, and uh, we're just so grateful for you guys and the work that you're doing. So um a little bit about uh well I I guess I'll start with with you, Letitia. You you started out as a um as a guard. Am I saying that right?

SPEAKER_00 9:33

I started out as a correction officer. Actually, one year out of college. Um where did you go to school? I went to Fayetteville State University for my undergrad um and got hired at central prison at the age of 22. Um yeah, and my And was that something you wanted to do? Well, I wanted to help those get back on track, and I didn't know which path it was gonna be going, I was gonna be going through. Um, and just when Central Prison, they hired me first, and I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_06 10:05

And a 22-year-old female woman going into as someone who was incarcerated. Is that that that's pretty intimidating, isn't it? I would I would think so, yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah, and it was because then it was a very male-dominated environment. Um, but I was up for the challenge. Yeah. Up for the challenge.

SPEAKER_06 10:29

What was it like coming in? Uh what were you feeling? This 22-year-old just uh hadn't had had you had any experience going into jails or prisons at all in your none.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

You grew up in New Bern, Newburn, Vance, Vanceboro, Newburn, North Carolina. Yes, they're right next to each other. Yeah. Um, and I really was not exposed to any of that.

SPEAKER_04 10:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

So I had no clue. And my first day going in, I was saying to myself, what have I got myself into?

SPEAKER_06 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

But I stuck with it. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 11:00

It's how God works to put you in that position. 22 years old. What was that some of those first days like? What what did you experience?

SPEAKER_00 11:08

The first days were scary. Um, I tell people I did have nightmares for several months. Did you? Um, but I didn't quit um because I had the passion that I wanted to just be a part of that. Um, and being a correction officer, being in the custody level of of promotion, I didn't want to do that. I wanted to get into the nuts and bolts of of helping. And so that's when I transitioned into programming.

SPEAKER_06 11:34

Okay. What did you see when you first came in? What were you seeing as far as culture, that incarcerated culture? What how long ago is this?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

This was in 1995.

SPEAKER_06 11:47

So what 31 years ago. Were you in a maximum security?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Male maximum security. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 11:54

What were you seeing? What were some concerns? What were some things that raised your eyebrows?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

One of the things was that a lot of men were left behind, no family. Uh family was out there, yeah, but it was kind of like over time the family stopped communicating. And then I saw a lot of mental illnesses.

SPEAKER_05 12:14

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Um, and substance use issues. Not as much as it is now today, but it was it was definitely increasing. So it's worse now? It's worse now.

SPEAKER_06 12:25

Yes. And so a lot of hope hopelessness is that? I mean, people going like, hey, my family was visiting for a while, no, they're not here. Not a lot of it's hard hard to see a future, I think.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

It was very hard for the men there. Um, but when you have staff to help encourage them, yeah, um, to keep pushing, keep staying connected with your family, even though that was limited on the other end. Yeah. Um, but you know, a lot of them didn't understand and it was a lot of hopelessness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:53

The corre the the other correctional officers, do you feel like they they had some of the same passions that you had, or did I suppose it was a mix?

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Back then, I'm trying to be careful here. Back then it was a different culture. Right. Different culture. We moved from the era of calling them convict to inmate. Um and so it was less people seeing it the way that I saw it. But you know, you had to find those that were like-minded.

SPEAKER_06 13:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

And that's what I did.

SPEAKER_06 13:28

Hard not to go with the flow of the people around you. Right. And you were you did the opposite. You went to find the people that were like you.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:36

Because it was probably easy to get cynical. And yeah, I was going into Gander Hill prison doing um, this is a maximum security prison in Delaware, and uh doing some drug and alcohol treatment. And that that I knew I was getting out in uh about eight hours. And man, when those doors closed behind me, I mean I thought I was hoping I'd get out at the end of the day. Um it's intimidating, it felt oppressive. And at least for me, that I remember the correctional officers felt and again, this is just my observations, but it felt like they were sort of as it was hard for for them to function on a level of optimism as much as the the people the pr the incarcerated individuals there. So it just felt very dark and oppressive. And so uh curse for you. Where where did you grow up? I grew up in Raleigh. In Raleigh. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 14:35

Yeah. I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, but I've been in Raleigh area since elementary school.

SPEAKER_06 14:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 14:39

Raleigh's definitely home.

SPEAKER_06 14:40

Yeah, tell me about growing up. What what was it like?

SPEAKER_07 14:43

What uh what were some of your experiences? Um Wow. Um at that young of an age? Family. Yeah, so I was the I'm the baby of the bunch. Okay. Right? I'm the that makes sense. I'm the youngest out of six. Um, three boys, three girls. Oh wow. And um one of the things that impacted me early on was this this academic gift that God had put in me, right? I was school was no problem. It was just almost a joke to me. I didn't have to study, I didn't have to work hard. Um and so what we should be considering a blessing became a curse to me because I was uh different than other folks. Okay. And I was, you know, picked on, I was called names, and um, I hated it, man. I I literally hated that attribute, and um eventually I basically just hated myself. Wow um as a very, very, very young child.

SPEAKER_06 15:39

How how old do you remember going, like, I don't like who I am?

SPEAKER_07 15:43

Oh man, early as six, seven. Oh yeah. Yeah, it was terrible. I'll never forget those feelings that I felt. And um as as I got older and things progressed, uh to this day, I I joke about this now, but I have no idea why I so desperately wanted to fit in with the crowd of people that I wanted to, because looking back, that they didn't have anything for really. But in my mind, in that moment, man, it was the realest thing you could ever imagine.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_07 16:12

And I just wanted to be like them. And so um I was introduced to alcohol. That was my first substance uh at uh probably no more than 12 years old. 12. And um it was not uh a party, right? It it was it was a tool. Coping.

SPEAKER_06 16:29

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 16:30

At 12.

SPEAKER_06 16:31

It wasn't peer pressure as much as it was I don't like myself, and this is what I'm gonna do to kind of numb that.

SPEAKER_07 16:36

You know, I don't know. Maybe maybe the peer pressure played a part leading up to that first, but once I once I partook in that, yeah, it was it was a wrap. I I had found something that I could utilize. And as long as I had something in my system, I could create this whole different persona. I wasn't Curtis Taylor anymore. I could become KT and um, you know, all of my inhibitions were gone. I could talk to the prettiest girl in the room. Uh I would even dance. You know, to this day I will not dance, right? But uh unless my wife makes me. Um but uh but back then, yeah, I get I get enough of those substances in me and I could be the life of the party. And um, and so I set out to to do that and be that 24 hours a day.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:20

Alcohol led to marijuana, marijuana led to uh crack cocaine.

SPEAKER_06 17:24

Um pretty quick progression? Yeah, I mean when did the when did when did crack enter into the picture?

SPEAKER_07 17:31

I was about 15 years old. 1986 or so, um, somewhere around there. So still in high school, um, you know, doing anything and everything that you can imagine to get those the grades still were there, or did grades start to dive? Well, I mean, school's sort of easy for you. One of the things that happened in Wake County, I don't know how this went across the country, but Wake County changed the uh attendance policy.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_07 17:57

And they said that uh it doesn't matter, even if your letter grade was an A, if you missed, I think it was more than 10 days.

SPEAKER_06 18:04

I've heard that a lot. Like I was intelligent, but I didn't show up. Right.

SPEAKER_07 18:08

Right. And um, and so when that when they implemented that, um, I just stopped going completely. Um just dropped out. I never really considered myself a high school dropout, but in essence, that's what I did. Um, I did have the the wherewithal to go over to Wake Tech and grab my GED. Okay. Um, granted, I was high as a Georgia Pine when I took the test for my GED and scored honors on it and took the interest exam for Wake Tech's uh uh computer aided drafting program on that same day and did not miss one question. Um a gift. Yeah. But at that time, still, still very much a curse um to me.

SPEAKER_06 18:49

So no part of that were you like it was no pride in that. It was a curse completely.

SPEAKER_07 18:55

I think there was probably moments of pride. I always enjoyed writing, especially. Okay. Um, math was probably my strongest subject, but uh, but I and I enjoyed writing. So I could I could write a book report on a book that I hadn't read and get like an A minor. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and the teacher would write, like, you know, too vague. And I'm like, well, yeah, I think it's gonna be vague. I could write this book. It's too specific. You know, check the front and the back and get a couple character names and have at it. But um, you know, it's it's it's funny now, right? I I can laugh and joke about some of this stuff, man. But back then, um it it really, really drove me and drove my addiction. Uh, and it drove me even outside of addiction to just do things that just made absolutely no sense. All in in the in an effort, uh in a desire to just fit in.

SPEAKER_06 19:49

Yeah. What's outside of your character and the things that you felt like this is not me, including that addiction piece. When you say it led me to do other things, what what were some of those other things? Um committing crimes.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 20:03

Um, you know, getting in fights for no reason with perfect strangers and things of that nature. Trying to prove that I was uh down, you know, that I that I was about that life and whatnot, when I mean, I mean, reality. Like if you could really peek under the hood, I'm I'm not a thug. I wasn't I I became a thug in order to survive once my addiction really took over. Or it took you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I didn't have any choice in the matter then. You know, my my parents didn't uh raise us in the projects. I I had to go to the projects because that's where my substance is. And um, you know, I became homeless at a very early age. And um ultimately there was a time in my life when I was homeless, unemployable, and derelict. And I was in the streets 24 hours a day. Um you may not know what this means, but selling dummies was was an occupation of mine. That means selling counterfeit, crack cocaine, um counterfeiting anything for that matter. And I was a master at it. And I know people who sold just one dummy, just did it once, and they're no longer with us as a result. Or they're in a wheelchair for life, paralyzed. Um I did it for years.

SPEAKER_06 21:17

There's consequences.

SPEAKER_07 21:19

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Whether the person that you sold it to, or even just the drug dealers on that particular uh street or uh neighborhood, if they found out, yeah, it was it was over with. Um so I under I'm I'm saying that to say that I understand that God had his hand of protection on me this entire time.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 21:39

And um he always had something different uh planned for me. I didn't know what that might be. Certainly never expected to be sitting in this chair next to Letitia Thrash in the interview.

SPEAKER_06 21:49

And you're entirely unique. Every incarcerated individual is entirely unique, but you see some commonalities here, Leticia. Is this is this right? The the education piece. Yes. The you don't consider yourself a dropout, but lacking that education, the the mental health of struggling with worth and value. Yes. Obviously the addiction piece. Are these commonalities to commonalities?

SPEAKER_00 22:13

So what I seen when I first started.

SPEAKER_06 22:15

Yeah. Yes. And that education. That seems to be a like a a common statistic. That lack of education is a huge part of that. And which is why reentry that piece is huge. Going to Campbell and Mr. Wooten and all that what they're doing there with Campbell University. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 22:36

But just watch that gives me goosebumps to watch those guys graduate or going to, you know, having the staff, the university staff in the prison.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yes. It's wonderful.

SPEAKER_06 22:48

Put it in the families celebrating that. Um yeah, I think we miss the addiction piece, yes, makes sense. The mental health, but that education is is so so key. We see seems like we see all of these things uh in your story. Again, completely unique to you. Um and so you're homeless, you said a young age, how old? Recovering marriage is a game changer if you want to either save your marriage or simply strengthen it. If you want to take your marriage from good to great, or if your marriage is in real trouble, either way, recovering marriage can be extremely beneficial. One of the ways that you can use this resource, recovering marriage, is you can get involved in our online recovering marriage groups. You can plug into those groups at recoveryalive.com. Also, if your church wants to get a group started, you can get a hold of this book and our leadership material of how to run a recovering marriage group in your church. These groups take about 14 to 16 weeks. They're based on the 12 commitments of recovering marriage. And I'm telling you, so far, everything we've heard about these things is we are seeing marriages saved. We're seeing divorce papers being torn up, we're seeing recommitments, vow renewals. It's been absolutely epic what we've seen happen as people work through the 12 commitments of recovering marriage. We also are having weekend intensives. If your church is interested in having a full day intensive of recovering marriage, for us to come in and lead an entire day of working through the 12 commitments, we'd love to come to your church and your community and run one of those intensives. You can get all of this information at recoveryalive.com. You can go on uh Amazon and get this book as well if you just want to research it a little bit. The 12 commitments of recovering marriage are changing lives. Check it out today.

SPEAKER_07 25:00

First time, probably 17 or so.

SPEAKER_06 25:03

What was your family going through at this time?

SPEAKER_07 25:06

Oh God. So uh my my mom, um just the the sheer disappointment and um helplessness that she felt. She never stopped praying for me, right? I can guarantee you that. But my siblings, I think they just were just they had no idea what to do about me or for me. And uh they weren't doing those things. Oh, the Lord. No, no, they're some of the most successful people he ever want to meet. And um, out of all of them, I think part of them was like, you know what? Uh I had to study to get bees, you know. You don't even have to study. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 25:48

What's wrong with that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 25:49

Like you just want to shut you. Um, but you know, at the end of the day, it it wasn't even about that for me. It was almost um, I consider it like an almost an identity crisis, right? And I just wanted to be anybody except who I was and um and fit in, right? And then once once you cross over that threshold and it's full-blown addiction, then none of that even matters, right? It's it's about you know that survival instinct that's in a part of every human being created that has been taken over and it is dedicated to getting that next hit, period. Whatever that means.

SPEAKER_06 26:28

People understand that. Like just, man, you're destroying your life, just stop.

unknown 26:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 26:32

Huh. Yeah. I mean, we don't have time to really go into I have like this scientific uh uh presentation that reward system, oh yeah, that reward control pathway being hijacked and whatnot.

SPEAKER_06 26:45

But you're in an elevator and somebody's like, Man, I you know, you've got this addiction stuff. Why don't they just just get over it, man? Just knock it off, you know, in an elevator.

SPEAKER_07 26:55

How do you I think the quickest way to say it would be that every survival instinct, the instinct inside of you and the the endorphins that get released and um you know these things that get produced in our in our brain chemistry that tell you to eat when you're hungry, to drink when you're thirsty, to procreate, right? Like that's a whole lot of dopamine and things that if we didn't do, number one, we would die as individuals. And ultimately, um, as far as procreation, if we weren't doing that, the whole human race would die. And so that reptilian survival instinct is now committed to getting to hit a crack. That's good. That's a good way to put it. Getting another drink, right? And um, there's nothing, you know, the the analogy or or a comparison that I use is um which one of us can just sit here and hold our breath until we die? Try it. It's nonsensical. You're not gonna do it. Correct, right? Eventually, that same part, that reward pathway that we're talking about is gonna say, right. Oh no, man, you're tripping, bro. We gotta breathe. You know? So you can't overcome that. That's good. No more than a person in the grips of addiction can come overcome that desire and that need for it.

SPEAKER_06 28:11

I'm gonna be borrowing that. That's pretty good. Because it is straight survival. Yeah. And you'll do whatever you gotta do, grandma's purse, it's not off limits, nothing. Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:20

And so committing crimes, doing things that you just couldn't imagine, living that homeless life. When did when did things hit that bottom for you where you found yourself incarcerated? And I I don't was it the first time? Were there a few times, or was it one big the first time I ever got incarcerated? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:48

I I basically grew up in Wade County J. Okay. Right. Um, I had a good talk game. People say I could talk a cat off the back of a fish truck, right? Um, and so somehow I've I managed to avoid prison. Yeah. Um, also, for the most part, these were low-level crimes. Um, I wasn't running up in a bank or doing something, you know, that would get me a lot of time.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

Right.

SPEAKER_07 29:11

But uh, but yeah, I was in and out of jail uh more times than I care to count.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 29:16

Um I think what when the the first time I made a decision to try to do something different was when um I had uh created my my daughter, right? And she was about to be born. And I remember thinking to myself, like, man, you gotta get yourself together. You got a baby coming, right? So I checked myself into treatment and um, you know, made made every attempt to to get things right. And I probably stayed clean for, I don't know, four or five months.

SPEAKER_06 29:46

Just white knuckling.

SPEAKER_07 29:48

Or did you do some work?

SPEAKER_06 29:50

I I did a little bit of work.

SPEAKER_07 29:52

Um I was I was young. I was 22, 23 years old, you know, at the time. And um you know, it it it didn't, it didn't stick. Let's just let's just put it like that, right? Um, and I didn't return to the world of treatment and recovery and recovery homes until uh 1996 when I was 25 years old. And I moved into Oxford House. Um, I got a sponsor in the 12-step program, uh helped open new Oxford houses. I got involved with the Oxford House program in a in a real way. Um, and then uh four, maybe five years later, I moved out of an ox uh Oxford house and I married my daughter's mother. And I married my daughter's mother because in my the way I was raised, that's what I was supposed to do. Okay. It was never a love story. I'm sort of you know, if she was sitting here, she'd say the same thing. And as a result, it just was not a good situation. And um, it wasn't too long after that that I used again. The last time that I used was in 2002. It was June 1st, 2002. And I I stayed out there on those streets, risking my life, risking my freedom, doing God knows what, for almost six months straight from June the 1st to December 23rd, 2002. So December 23rd, two days before Christmas, um I had lost my house, my job, my car, my family. I had lost my mind. And um, you know, I some people can relate to this. I couldn't get high. There was no euphoria to be found. I could get paranoid, I could get, you know, these terrible feelings that I'd never forget. But I would yet, and still I couldn't stop. And so on that day, two days before Christmas, I'm thinking, I'm like, my kids are gonna wake up. By this time I got a son too, right? Little brand new little baby boy named Curtis. And uh, they're gonna wake up in a couple days from now, Christmas morning, they're not gonna have anything from their dad. I just couldn't, I don't know. I just I didn't know what to do about that. And I I I in the in the scripture, the prodigal son story talks about he came to himself. He remembered his dad. A moment of clarity. There you go. And um, thank God I knew what name to call on, and I and I called out on the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And what welled up within my spirit in that moment was, well, Curtis, you really can't do anything to start getting your life together until you take care of these charges pinning over your head. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, you want me to turn myself in? We don't turn ourselves in. You gotta do your job. Come on. But in that moment, um, it was a hundred percent surrender. And I was able to surrender to Christ in a way that I had never found possible. Wow. And um, my first act of obedience was to go to a payphone. There's still payphones on the street in 2002 and dial 911 and uh call the police to turn myself in.

unknown 32:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 32:52

Ownership. Yeah, that's powerful. I didn't know it. I didn't know it at that time, but during that act, Jesus literally delivered me from substance use disorder completely. Even the cigarettes, right? Any of you have ever smoked cigarettes, you know, like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:13

No, my dad, he grew up in the 70s, he's a hippie. Yeah. And uh had some major drug addiction, and he had a spiritual experience through the Jesus movement where I mean Christ set him free. He dropped the drugs, dropped the alcohol. Yeah, and he goes, John, the cigarettes were the hardest thing on earth. Everything went away, but those cigarettes, man, nicotine's it. Yeah, it's density in.

SPEAKER_07 33:40

So I haven't had a craving, a thought, an idea. There's not a cell in my body that desires a cigarette, a joint, alcohol, cocaine, nothing since December 23rd, 2002.

unknown 33:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 33:53

Blink of an eye. I haven't even had a cup of coffee in over 23 years. Now that I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_06 33:59

I'm not sure I feel about that.

SPEAKER_07 34:02

Well, drink coffee, but he he just took that too while he was at it. And um, and what I want to make real clear is that that happened, and then I turned myself in and went to prison. Sure. Right. So it wasn't some prison experience or or whatever that changed me or saved me. It was my Lord and my Savior Jesus Christ. Yeah. 100,000 percent.

SPEAKER_06 34:23

But one of my heroes who started prison fellowship, Chuck Colson, um, same thing, is he had that experience of taking ownership prior. He was one of the only folks in the whole Nixon scandal who said, Yep, I did it. And he and and uh it was through that experience with salvation prior to going to into uh being incarcerated that led him to be incarcerated because his wife and his attorney were like, Don't admit to anything. And he just he said, No, I gotta own this thing. That's that ownership's power. Is ownership a powerful part? It is powerful of the work that people it is powerful. Tell me about that. What is what what does that part play in the work that you're trying to do with incarcerated individuals?

SPEAKER_00 35:05

We see many people that are serving time, and if they don't take ownership, they will keep going through the crazy, what I call the crazy cycle. Yeah. Um, and they'll keep re-offending or keep doing things in the street, and you know, just and the thing is they have to be willing to say, you know what, I'm done. I I want to turn things over, I want to change my life, I want to get on the right track. But until you take ownership, you you will continue to go in that cycle.

SPEAKER_06 35:35

A lot of those, you know, we just talked to Kelly Bloss, who is telling us about all the tragedy in her life. And so then she starts talking about some of the things she did because of that tragedy, some of the trauma that she experienced, led her to start drinking and making some poor choices. So you got some people who are in car trade who have some good excuses.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:56

A little harder for them to take ownership because they're like, well, look what society and culture did to me. Is that a hard sell to be like you even though you've been victimized, there's a piece of this that says you, there's a responsibility that you have. Is that a sometimes I think it's a hard sell for folks who've been through some stuff.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

It is very hard, but the person has to be very mature.

SPEAKER_06 36:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

And most of the time I've noticed if they have not had an encounter encounter with Jesus Christ, then it it won't come as easy.

SPEAKER_06 36:27

What is it about that encounter with Christ? Is it the humility to be able to like, hey, there's something bigger? I which I love that part of the steps, that power greater than myself. Just starting there and going like, there's something bigger.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

You're surrendering. You're surrendering and know that you can't do it on your own. Um, there's someone greater than you that will make the path much greater than what you have tried to make the path to be.

SPEAKER_06 36:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that humility for you. Is that a good word to describe what happened with that 911 phone call? Was it a humbling?

SPEAKER_07 37:06

Well, you know, yeah, absolutely. It certainly was surrender, I think, is a better way to put it because what I was experiencing up until then was humiliation. Like for real. Like, you know, jail and prison are terrible situations, but what I experienced in the street, like day in, day out, one moment to the next, like that was utter destruction. Sure. Kill, steal, destroy. Yeah, it was terrible.

SPEAKER_06 37:33

There's a line uh in in the book I wrote uh from this brilliant philosopher, and he says, humility cannot be humiliated. And so you get to that place of surrender. Yeah, it's just like I'm I'm admitting I'm at the bottom, so I can't really be humiliated. So I I think that's the power of surrender. It's like I admit it. Yes, I am at bottom. And it's different than just that shame piece, which is a you see that too. Uh I think a big part of what we're trying to overcome with recovery, and I'm sure an incarceration is just shame. Was that was that part of your experience? Major shame almost killed me.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 38:12

Literally.

SPEAKER_06 38:14

Can you unpack that?

SPEAKER_07 38:16

I mean, well, for one, I had uh I'd been homeless, I'd been in the street, I'd been in the gutter, and God had given me a pathway out. Yeah. Right? I had experienced years in recovery. I was sponsoring other people in the rooms of 12-step fellowship and opening Oxford houses. And you know, my name meant something. You know, I had a good job, beautiful home, and you know, things of that nature. And here I am, uh, I think the Bible says, like a dog returns to his own vomit, right? And so, you know, walking back up into a 12-step meeting and getting up in front of everybody and picking up a key tag, and you know, yeah, just utter humiliation and and shame. And um, you know, the list goes on and on of how I had uh just not been um a steward at all over anything that God had blessed me with. And so in my mind, from my perspective, on the inside of me, it yeah, it was shame. And shame was driving me to keep trying to, you know, shove shove those feelings down and um get another hit, take another drink, do whatever I could do to just you know survive to the next moment. Um yeah, it was real.

SPEAKER_06 39:28

So you're you dial that 911 and then you are processed. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 39:36

Eventually. There's a whole nother story to that, but we probably don't have time for it. Ultimately, you're yeah, ultimately, I go I go to the county, um, I um do some time in the county, uh, assign a plea bargain. Um, and for the first time in my life, I'm uh going to the North Carolina Department of Corrections. And um that was a whole nother experience. I'd never been to prison before. And uh being from Raleigh, the prison system, uh, at least in my circumstance, didn't care where I was from. It put me wherever the system wanted me to be. So I did my time way out uh in Hyde, Hyde County. Ohrectional. Okay. Yeah, that's what I said.

SPEAKER_06 40:16

I'm like, I don't know where Hyde.

SPEAKER_07 40:18

Where is it? Yeah, they had to show me it on the map when I got there, right? And uh and so I say that to say, as one of the things that resulted from that was that I had no way whatsoever to plan anything for my release. There was no home plan. I thought I was going to the shelter when I came home in 2004 over on Wilmington Street, and I was going saying, thank you, Jesus, for a shelter for me to go to, if that would have been the case. Because of my um experience with Oxford House and those relationships that I had built, uh, a couple people from Oxford House, uh, Kathleen Gibson and her husband Keith, they took me into their home on my release date. Wow. They gave me clothes to wear, food to eat, loved on me, gave me compassion.

SPEAKER_04 41:02

This favor.

SPEAKER_07 41:02

And um, you better believe it. And they uh set me up to be interviewed and accepted into uh another Oxford house at the time, right? And so it was from that um experience and my prison experience as I shared it with Kathleen, that we said, you know, wouldn't it be awesome if there was somebody out here in the world that could help navigate the system on behalf of those people that Ms. Thrash is talking about that are that have substance use disorders, mental health issues, they they've taken ownership, and now they just need a chance. They need an opportunity, but they don't have anywhere to live. Nothing. Right? They got nothing, no support system whatsoever. And so I became the very first paid re-entry coordinator for Oxford Houses. How fast from coming out? Not very long.

SPEAKER_06 41:50

Months crazy. Yeah, months. Awesome. Favor. Yeah, yeah, but I think it's been well uh assigned. I think you've done a lot with it. I pray so just a few months after your release, you're a full-time case worker, sort of.

SPEAKER_07 42:10

Well, it didn't, it didn't start full-time, but yeah, eventually it it evolved into um into an actual career. At the same time, I was also an outreach worker, so I was opening, heck, I probably opened close to 40 new Oxford houses during my tenure there. Wow. And um helped find placement for a whole lot of men and women all over the state. Yeah and kind of became the voice or the face of re-entry. Yeah, right. That that word didn't really exist when I came home.

SPEAKER_04 42:37

Yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_07 42:38

But but it started gaining momentum. And people like Ms. Thrash, as they um climbed the ladders of leadership, right, and were being handed over these decision-making positions, their heart and their passion to help, right? They didn't they don't want to keep caging people up like animals. They wanted Johnny and Susie to be able to get out of these situations and go home, stay home so they could raise their kids and you know, things of that nature.

SPEAKER_06 43:04

That's a perfect transition into your journey, then going from correctional officer, which I think how valuable was it that you started there, that you could say, like, I was a correctional officer. I've seen what this looks like as far as probably what you don't want it to look like. And then you said, I wanted to do more programming. I wanted to get more involved with the programs. Um, so how did that how did you go from correctional officer into doing some some more of the programming?

SPEAKER_00 43:35

So being a correction officer, um, I knew immediately that I didn't want to stay there long.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Um, I tell many people when I share my story that it was a valuable opportunity to be a correction officer. It was a value opportunity to work at Central Prison. Um in 1995. Many people say that in 1995, that was when they were beginning to allow feelings. Female officers to work in male quarters. And I was the first and only female on my shift. So it was very intimidating, but I stuck with it. It's incredible. Um, I stayed a correction officer for two years.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Did you?

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Now, mind you being young, you want to make sure that's what you want to do in life. So I left the department and went corporate.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

But I missed it.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

I know that sounds crazy.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

I missed being able to see the people and see what I could do to help.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

And I missed it so much that I went back.

SPEAKER_06 44:36

Golly.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

I went back in 1999 and been there ever since.

SPEAKER_06 44:41

You knew that's where you're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Yeah, I knew I knew that was my purpose. How about that? I knew that was my purpose. And so I transitioned into programming. Um, I started working at the women's prison, stayed there for six and a half years.

SPEAKER_06 44:53

Um what did you do?

SPEAKER_00 44:55

I was actually, I started out as a case manager.

SPEAKER_06 44:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

And I worked my way up to program director.

unknown 45:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

The years that I was there.

SPEAKER_06 45:02

Man, that's impressive.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 45:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Transitioned there, and then I went to weight correctional. Uh got promoted as associate warden for programs.

SPEAKER_06 45:11

You're moving.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 45:14

So women's prison versus men's. What what were some of the differences? I mean, probably obvious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Very different. Women are more vocal than men. Women seem to be more needy, meaning they have children.

SPEAKER_04 45:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

They're very emotional. And yeah, I'm a woman, so I know. Um, very emotional. Um, and it's always I need this and I need that. Men is like, just give me my food, let me go in my room and sleep. Let me get a pen, a pencil, and a piece of paper to write my family, and I'm good.

SPEAKER_06 45:52

So more casework, and when you when you're talking about being that caseworker and you're working with these individuals, just coming to you with more issues, more uh yeah, and I think that the having a child while you're incarcerated, that's horrifying.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

It it is, it is, and navigating what my child is thinking, what my child is doing, seeing your child grow up. Uh, there are many women that give birth while they're waiting.

SPEAKER_06 46:21

I had never thought about that.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:24

To be incarcerated with an infant.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Mm-hmm.

unknown 46:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 46:30

I can't imagine.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

You have to have a supportive family that is willing to bring the infant for you to have visits. Um, and what is unique about the women's prison is that they have something called Match. Mothers and Their Children is a program uh that they have, and it's a it's a large room that's painted in murals with different colors, like you're in a daycare. Oh. And it has child-friendly um different things and toys and and furniture. That's beautiful. And they can bring their child there and they would never know that their mommy is in prison. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_06 47:04

That's what's up. Yes. So six and a half years. And then tell me about that promotion. What did that look like? This uh well more of an executive function.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Now, going backwards, I really didn't want to go work at the women's prison. Yeah, yeah. Um, one of my supervisors encouraged me to do that. And I'd heard all the her horror stories of working with women. No, I don't want to do that. But I did it and it afforded a lot within my career.

SPEAKER_04 47:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Um, and so from transitioning from the program director to weight correctional, um, it was somewhat easy because I knew it was what I wanted to do. I knew that I could do it. It was going back working with the male population. Um, but then in that role, being able to make, well, not say make, but encourage men to talk. Share with me what you need. Because you're at a pivotal point that you're getting ready to go home.

SPEAKER_06 48:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

And I'm here to help. My team is here to help.

SPEAKER_06 48:05

And you said you almost have to make these fellas share like what you're playing. Why is that a wrestling match? What's why why are why are why are they not talking about it? Why are why is it difficult for them to have that conversation? If I'm saying that right.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

A lot of times they don't want you to know uh what they are not able to secure.

SPEAKER_06 48:31

That feels right.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

They're like, I'm a leader, I'm a man. I I can I got this.

SPEAKER_06 48:36

And if they're if if their answers to the questions, I don't know where I'm going.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Yeah. It's embarrassing. Embarrassing. It's embarrassing. Um, but just being able to learn how to be sensitive in your communication with the male that is serving time, um, is being able to get him to talk and share. And just to let him know, okay, I'm here. It's nothing wrong with that. You're in this situation, but you don't have to stay in this situation.

SPEAKER_06 49:02

You must have learned so much in that process of how difficult that movement is. The anxiety and fear, and what's next for me? And am I gonna make it? And yeah, yeah. So what did you learn in those conversations? Um, as you have these men who are embarrassed, they're fearful, they're they don't have a plan, they don't know how this is gonna work. Plus the pressure to, I would imagine, um, provide and take care of. I mean, what what are they going through? What's a person? I think that that's what I really wanted to eventually nail is you have an incarcerated individual who is trying to get out and become a productive member of society. What are some of those challenges? What are they looking at?

SPEAKER_00 49:54

They're looking at first, how am I gonna provide for me and my family? Uh, where am I gonna live? Most of the time you have men who have burned their bridges. Yeah, they don't have nowhere to go. Curtis talked about, talked about that. And um, most times they don't want to go to another transitional house because they feel like it's still prison. Um, so it's just being able to help them to see things, be realistic with them. You know, I I I made sure that I didn't paint a false picture for them.

SPEAKER_06 50:28

Expectations. Right. So I I was thinking about yourself and coming out and having family and friends and people going, you know. I think again, this is me without that experience, but to some extent there's a a celebratory feel to being released. So somewhat like, hey, this thing is ended. Now this can begin. Is there a lot is there pressure coming from family for expectations? Is that a that would feel like a lot of like, hey, we've got big plans for you. We've got big expectations for you coming out. Is that something that you you felt, or were you you probably had enough for yourself?

SPEAKER_07 51:11

Yeah, no, I don't, I didn't feel anything like that. Again, I thought I was going to the homeless shelter.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:15

I think I think one of the things that I understood through my because during my incarceration, I continued to build on that that intimate personal relationship with with Jesus Christ. And um, I knew wherever I was going was just temporary. Yeah. And um I had no idea what the future held, but I knew that all things were were working together for my good. And I, you know, I staked my life on that, right? Um, I think that That's all but that's you're sort of unique, I think, in that in that way. I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think a lot of uh from the male perspective, um, the pressure is that again, we're supposed to be that provider. Yeah. We're supposed to be that protector, right? And here we find ourselves on the flip side of that, where we need all of the help and the assistance. And um I think as a result, it pushes um some men, not all, but some men, to get um almost like this Superman complex, and they want to hurry up and be daddy, you know, and be the disciplinarian and be the head of the household. And uh the household isn't ready to receive them as such. Okay. And so um, that's where that family reunification piece can play a major role. And uh some of the grantee organizations we support, that's what they're dedicated to as well.

SPEAKER_06 52:30

What does that look like uh from the prison standpoint, helping that along to pro other outside programs helping this family receive this person who's transitioning? Huh? Talk me through some of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Now, of course, there's regular visitation, but that's not enough. Yeah. Um, at Wait Correctional, we would hold something called a family day. Family Day will bring your family, your children, and you will spend time for probably like six hours with your family, just having fun. Wow, talking, um, just having that reunification, um, finding out what's going on.

SPEAKER_06 53:13

You need that time.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

You need that time. Um, and then we would also do what we call one day with God, and that was with um Forgiving Ministries.

SPEAKER_06 53:22

And they would come in and I don't even know what that is, and I got excited about it. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Yeah, it's it's actually unifying the father and their child or children. And that was a moment that everyone in the room would be just full of tears.

SPEAKER_06 53:38

Emotional. I can't, I mean, I don't I haven't had it fully described to me, but it sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

Yeah. So so you have to have those moments. And then at Way Correctional, I began to build um family enrichment programs where the gentlemen will have more than just regular visitation, but they will have one-on-one time, whether it's with their spouse, significant other, their child and children, and they will have different activities to help build that before they even go home.

SPEAKER_06 54:04

So good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What were some of those challenges for you? I know you had your own. I'm I'm I'm trying to work out how my life is going to be just the basics, like my life, I'm gonna have a financial future. I'm gonna be able to get myself to a place where I'm managing some of the emotions. But what was your family going through in in your transition back into regular society? What were they dealing with?

SPEAKER_07 54:37

Well, my family, for the most part, wasn't even speaking to me at that moment. And and and uh what I thank God for was again back to that ownership piece and taking responsibility. I understood they they probably shouldn't have been talking. They had no nobody had any reason really to believe anything coming out of my mouth because if you looked at my track record, and you've got two kids over at this point, yeah. Yeah. Now, granted, my son uh it by now is only um I don't know, what about six months old or so?

SPEAKER_06 55:06

Um and uh you know, I had you been seeing him and in your other travel car?

SPEAKER_07 55:15

No, no, no. The only person came to visit me during incarceration was my mom. And because I was so far away, that was very few and far far between. Yeah. Um but but I was, I don't know, man, I I was it's hard to describe, right? And I and I understand again that my experience is is uh unique in a lot of ways because again, I surrendered prior to. And so if there was a part of me, like a major, major part of me, even through my spirit, that knew everything was gonna be all right. I just didn't know what that was gonna look like. What a I didn't know the details.

SPEAKER_06 55:54

What a gift, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Romans 8, 20, all things work together. If you believe that, it's you're kind of untouchable. All things work together for the good of those who love God or call according to his purpose. Like this is all part of his purpose. And you had that, that assurance. Wow, what a gift.

SPEAKER_07 56:10

I had that peace. Yeah. Yeah. Even even in my whatever I was lacking, I I had peace in it.

SPEAKER_06 56:14

Did things start with uh family, when did they start to kind of go, Yeah, I think this might be, this might have took. This is this might be real.

SPEAKER_07 56:23

You know, it didn't really take that long. Um, just a few months, really. And all of a sudden, I'm I'm back in my my kids' life. And you know, things are progressing and I'm taking care of a household again, you know. And uh just uh, you know, and at the same time, alongside of that, uh my I'm building relationships and and being uh put in places and in rooms and at tables that would help launch me down the path um to create a career that I never would have dreamed of.

SPEAKER_06 56:53

Which is taking you Tisha Temple connected with you. Was it the Alcohol and Drug Council? Is that where I guess first?

SPEAKER_07 57:03

Yes, I went to the case. How did you end up there? I went back to school and uh uh graduated from Shaw University with my bachelor's in social work, graduated Sumakum Laudi. There we go. Um can't brag, nothing to brag about. Glory to God, right? But that was my opportunity to utilize that gift for his glory. Yeah, right. And um, because if you if I if I break it down, I was working a full-time job. I I own a business, right? So I was running my business, and my son was playing AAU basketball.

SPEAKER_06 57:34

Oh man, just say that. That's a lot, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_07 57:37

And I was taking no less than 15 credit hours a semester. My goodness. And um never made anything less than an A the whole time. Did you read those books or did you just some I read some of them? Just the back cover. No, no. I re I read. I read. I I did um I applied myself.

SPEAKER_06 57:55

You're a learner. I know that. Like you, you, you, and this is what happened. It feels like I I think everybody maybe should wait about six or eight years before they go to college. Because by the time I started into my master's program, I was like, I want to learn. But in my undergraduate, I can get all I'm sure, you know, is get degrees. I just want to get through it. And so I can tell, yeah, you're just I think leaders are learners. I think that's a Maxwell quote. Uh-huh. You better be. Yeah. And I think that's it. You go, like, man, I want this stuff. This is gonna help me consuming those things. And so, yeah, so you're you get through Shaw.

SPEAKER_07 58:31

And while I'm pursuing my degree, this uh job opening um presents itself at Alcohol Drug Council of North Carolina as the executive director. And I've never been executive director of a nonprofit or of anything for that matter. Maybe, maybe director of a crackhouse or something. I don't know. Maybe that's the title. But um, but yeah, I uh placed my name in the hat for that role. And I didn't even have a bachelor's yet. It's a master's preferred, short, you know, position, but they hired me as their new executive director. That's awesome. And um, God blessed me to do well in that role. And I was just sitting there, you know, minding my own business, content and fulfilled, and got a phone call from a friend of mine saying that uh another job position had come available at uh as executive director of the Bob Barker Foundation. Yes. And when I read that job description, now that was a major jaw-dropping moment for me. I could not believe what I was reading.

SPEAKER_06 59:30

Yeah, what an amazing organization of work that they're doing. Um how long have you been with Bob Barker? Uh three going on three and a half years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 59:40

Can you tell us a little bit about what they're doing? So the the foundation exists for no other reason than to provide financial support and other types of support to nonprofit organizations all over America that are doing the work of re-entry and recidivism reduction. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_06 59:56

Yeah. And they're they're putting more their money where their mouth is. Absolutely. Billions and millions of dollars going into this, and it's we're seeing some beautiful results. Um your process to get to the place where you are today, which is just again staggering the the incredible work that you're doing. Over is it a hundred counties?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Yes, a hundred counties.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:25

North Carolina re-entry, all North Carolina re-entry services. What that was a pretty fast journey heading up uh up to this position. What other roles did you have leading up to this position?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

Leading up to this, I of course uh worked in administration where um I became a general instructor. Um, of course, I over saw the Opus, what we call Opus system. It's the uh electronic system that houses all of the records of those who are incarcerated, um, who are on community supervision. So I learned that. Um, so all those steps were very valuable to bring me to where I'm at now. Um, just to be able to have the Yeah, you gotta peek into all of it. Yeah, wow. Yes. So I didn't stop, um, didn't want to stop. Where does that drive come from? It came from my mother and my grandmother. Um, pretty much I was um my parents were seniors in high school. Um, so yes. Wow. Seniors in high school. So my mother always put it in me don't be like me, be greater, don't have a kid in high school. And pretty much I just grew up and I just positioned myself to for greatness.

unknown 1:01:45

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

Um, no matter what it took, just greatness, education-wise, and uh just career. And that's what I did. I I landed somewhere where I wanted to be, and I just made it work.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:57

Just went after it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:58

Yeah, you do it with a lot of humility and grace. It's beautiful to see. And I I love uh in your paragraph that you gave to us, um, and I told you all this, this this phrase that you talk about, re-entry is organic. And I wanted to look at that and um see as when when you put that in there, what did what did you mean by that? I I think I understand and I and I love it. When you say re-entry is organic, can you can you talk about that a little bit? Because you're a program person.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

Mm-hmm.

unknown 1:02:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:30

And yet at the same time, you're going like, this is kind of a living thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

It is living and breathing. Yeah. Just like the word of God.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:37

No, I learned.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:38

Okay. The thing is, is when we go in a grocery store, we see the regular produce and we see the organic. We feel organic is even better. Um, and so with organic, what I mean by that when it comes to re-entry is it's it's different for every person. That's right. Um, it can expand and just be stretched. Yeah. Um, and so re-entry, as Curtis mentioned, was not what it was years ago to what it is now.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:04

Yeah, Mr. Wooten had had said uh um down in Samson County, um, he he was talking about I think this re-entry 2030. 2030. 2030. Um and um I I think that even in his circumstances where he's kind of immersed in in um all things in uh uh prison and jail, is like re-entry was kind of new to him. So I I think it's it's even more new than us sitting here think it is. It's it's just starting to to be on people's tongues. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

And and re-entry 2030 is it's a national initiative, but North Carolina's been doing re-entry long before we signed on for your re-entry 2030 state. Um, we began to change the culture of our population, of our staff, when we began to say, you know what, we need to do more to prepare those who are releasing. Um, and we began to establish designated re-entry facilities. Um, we started them being at the minimum custody facilities because back then most people were transitioning from close, medium to minimum to be released from incarceration.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:16

So they go from maximum to like medium to minimum. Like that was the journey.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

Most, yes, that was the journey. But now we have people releasing from all custody levels. So we have to expand re-entry across the entire state.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:29

Do you think that's hurt re-entry to do it that way? Is it is it a better way to do it is to go the step down?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

No, I I think it pretty much is valuable doing it the way that we're doing it with the expanding it to all facilities.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:42

I think that makes yeah, like that makes sense. Is it's more about the I would think it's more about the individual having a tailor made. Like, I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's in my mind, it's like ever having like a a casework or being able to kind of evaluate what specifically are you dealing with? What are you gonna be your specific challenges? Um, because I think a Curtis is gonna be self-motivated. Um, you don't have to do a lot of pushing. It didn't seem like it seemed like you already had your re-entry figured out. And I know you got it, you had a lot of help, but you would have figured it out. I always think like if somebody who is uh struggling with an addiction goes to rehab, they're like, well, what's the best rehab? Well, the best rehab for one person might be prison.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:34

Somebody who goes to a Malibu, you know, $100,000 treatment center might relapse in a week. It doesn't matter. It's just the motivation specifically, or the you know, what a person is experiencing uniquely. That's the organic piece I think is really exciting. Is if I mean it's a lot to do to individually have a conversation with each person, but it's worth that effort, isn't it? It's worth it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

You can't have a cookie cutter reentry plan for everyone because it's not gonna work. Right. It's just not gonna work.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:09

Yeah. So how are you doing that? How are you being it it feels massive, like a massive undertaking.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:16

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:16

But how are you able to individually go like we're gonna we're gonna kind of tailor make something and cater to each person's unique struggles and issues?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

What we're doing now is the designated re-entry facilities start at small, as I mentioned, at just minimum custody facilities. We're expanding it to all 55 institutions. So we're pretty much at 26.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Um, and we're expanding. We already have, you know, things mapped out of who's gonna be next. And what we do is we make sure that there's a re-entry case manager and a probation officer. They're at the facility. Previously, you didn't see a probation officer until you can read to go out the gate. Right. That's I love it. And you and you know that. But now it's at the facility. They're there. They spent all you helping you navigate two years out from release.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:11

Two years out.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

If you have less than two years, they're still working with you because the probation officer, they're they're really diving in that last nine months. So you can know the expectations of your supervision so you could be successful.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:26

And how important are these private organizations, the nonprofits? How do you guys connect with uh the folks at the Bob Barker Foundation is helping the how how how is that how are those relationships built?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

Oh man, we're we're joined to Bob Barker's hip. We have a lot of organizations similar to Bob Barker, but Bob Barker just they're they're great. Yeah. Um and they're connected to a lot of different organizations. A lot of different organizations, yes. It's a lot of people who have a passion and want to want to do re-entry.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

So it makes it easy. They come in and they be volunteers or they offer a service, they offer funding. Uh, whatever they desire to offer, we welcome them. That's huge.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:14

When we talked at the recovery comp panel, I wanted to have on video and never dream you guys would come hang out with us here, so I want to get it again. I want to have on video and have some ability for folks who are not necessarily familiar with this re-entry space. To have you two talk about the person who is living Mr. Wooten talked about the person living in their backyard, if they have just gotten out of prison, they've just gotten out of jail. Um the community receiving somebody coming out of incarceration. I I think if if I can say the stigma would be, I don't want I don't want that person live moving into my neighborhood. Is that okay? I mean, am I right about that? I mean, for the lowest part, I think so I would love for you guys to help our audience with that. It's like what what can the community do to help receive folks coming out of incarceration? What are some misconceptions that we want to help straighten out? What how can we have compassion, especially as Christians, as the church, to be able to receive and uh you know, Matthew 25, Jesus talks about like this is one of the ways I'm gonna separate the sheep and the goats is did you visit me in prison? Like he has a compassion and a love for the incarcerated. How do we how do we as a community do a better job of seeing incarcerated individuals?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

Well, for one, I think my job is to help educate the community. One of the things we um have started doing um less than five years ago is starting doing re-entry simulations across the state.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:10

Um, and we do them also in the institutions so it can educate those who are incarcerated what to be prepared for. Right. But we also do them in the local community for anyone that wants them. And we've done a total of a hundred since we've started in 23, uh, 2023. We've done 100 re-entry simulations and it's constantly growing. That's beautiful. And those educate uh the public of what to be prepared for, what they can do to help someone that is coming out of incarceration. It don't have to be your family member, but it could be just being um hospitable, being welcoming, um, helping them at the grocery store because a lot has changed since they've come home. Um but what we have to realize as they're human too. They've just made wrong decisions. We've all made wrong decisions. Uh and it's landed up, landed us in different types of consequences that we have to um deal with. But at the end of the day, we still have to be welcoming and warming.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:10

I love it. Curtis, what being that person. What do people need to understand? What how can the community be educated and how what would what would you want to tell someone who's scrambled up on that a little bit and going like, no, I don't I don't know about those people coming out of there.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:30

I think I think I I refer back to the education piece as well, right? Because the reality is that over 25% of the United States population has some type of criminal record. One quarter of our entire population has some type of record. 25%. Yeah.

unknown 1:11:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:49

And to take it a step further, upwards of 95% of anybody that's incarcerated right now is coming home.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:58

Eventually, coming home. And so what do we want that to look like? Like if we're if we're seriously committed to public safety, if uh if our departments of correction are supposed to be what they're titled, right? Correcting individuals, right, then then you know, what are we really doing to help people be corrected, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:22

That's good.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:22

Um is redemption a real thing in our society? I love that question. Yeah. And so, you know, one of my mentors, he puts it this way, he said, when you when you keep making it real hard to do what's right, you make it super easy to do what's wrong.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:36

That's true.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:37

A man, and any individual for that matter, is gonna do what they have to do to survive. That's right. So um wouldn't you rather see me, you know, pursuing a college degree than figuring out better ways and more unique strategies to commit bigger crimes. Right. Um, I think that I made a lot of mistakes. I I still make mistakes today. And also realize and understand that um while I'm not better than anybody else, that I'm not less than anybody else.

unknown 1:13:10

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:10

All have uh fallen short. That's right. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, right? Uh none of us are perfect. That's it. And there's so many people in in our society, especially, who've done plenty of things that could have landed them inside behind bars. They just didn't get caught. You know, grace and mercy. So the sooner we stop looking down our nose at people and and judging people and um holding people accountable to their worst mistake in life for the rest of time, then the better off our our entire society is going to be.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:46

Well said. Yeah, and I I love re-entry because as we watch that redemption process, I hope it does put all of us in a place where I I truly could be incarcerated. And I think I wanna say most people, I think most people could be incarcerated just to get caught. You know, getting getting you to the place to go like we're all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We're all we're we're all in in this together. And being able to believe in that redemptive process does something, it just does something good to a society that believes that that's possible. Instead of that throw away the key mentality, it's just so separating and it's just denial, as it were. Yeah, we're all one mistake away. Yeah. Yeah. And so I I love what you two are doing. I love your willingness to share from your experience, strength, and help. Um, I love that you showed up here and shared your hearts. Um if there's one thing that you could leave our our folks with um that they need to know about this work that you all are doing. Um, if it's that Bob Barker pitch, and you're like, man, this is a good place. These nonprofits are a good place to put your money. Yeah. Um, that that doing the work of re-entry is worth your dollars. It's worth it's worth investing in. And and Tisha did such a good job, I think, at the gala of going, like, hey, there's so much money you're saving by having recovery live homes. You know, this is taxpayer money that you're saving. Yeah. Um, what's your pitch to that person to go like, why is this, why is re-entry worth investing in? What's your elevator pitch for that?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:46

My pitch would be, of course, for adult correction for myself. Public safety is a is a priority. And with that being said, public safety, me, you, local community, but also for those who are coming home. We want them to be safe too. So the goal is to make sure we help them be productive. And so it's my goal, our goal with Adult Correction to make sure we provide uh so many re-entry programs that will fit each individual person to help them be a productive citizen to reduce recidivism. Um so that's something that I will want someone to be able to hear from me and also know that they could be a part of it.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:28

It's not just me.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:29

They can be a part of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:30

They can be a part of it.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:31

Yeah. Re-entry simulation happens where?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:35

Anywhere you can.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:36

Churches.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

You want it just churches? I mean, local libraries, community, anywhere. So you can be a part.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:44

Yeah, and they are really cool. That is a very cool thing. What's your pitch? What do you tell somebody?

SPEAKER_07 1:16:49

Before my pitch, I just want to say how much respect and admiration I have for Miss Thrash. Yeah. Right. And um, having had the opportunity to see her interact with incarcerated men and uh just the the level of respect that she, you know, carried herself with and uh creating this safe space for men to really open up and be vulnerable. And um, I don't know, but she just has this incredible way of uh, like you immediately know she's she's capable, she's intelligent, she's she's just dynamic, but she's so down-to-earth and just so accepting and actually cares about the individual person. And so to have people like this rising through the ranks um to serve in you know now state leadership roles, thank God, just speaks volumes to um what we're doing in our state. So um, I'm just proud to know you.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:43

Thank you, man. I'm proud to know you too.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:46

As far as a pitch, I think that um, you know, let's go back to some of that data that you started with, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:55

And uh that 68, you know, percent recidivism rate at three years. Um that's like upwards of seven out of 10 people get released and they're right back in prison three years later. And so the recidivism rate for our the grantees that we support, again, is less than 10%. That's it. Now, at that, at this data point, we've impacted well over 11 million, upwards of 12 million lives. So when you apply that less than 10% recidivism rate to 12 million people, that's something I think we can all get excited about.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:33

We should.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:34

Yeah. I mean, that is real. Yes. That is, and it's unheard of kind of flip in statistical data. Like, yeah, it's just shocking. That's right. Yeah, easy investment. Um I get to have the last word on this one. I usually give other people, but I want to say what I love just so much is that you just keep going back to Jesus and what God has done in your life. If we can have volunteers connecting with folks who are incarcerated, we if we can have faith-based programming, if we can have people who just love through the Holy Spirit inside of them, people who are who have made mistakes, um and they can get a hold of that counselor with a capital C internally in them, then we can have a Curtis Taylor. Like that, you attribute all of what has happened in your life. While it's just very inspiring to what God has done. You just and I'm a pastor and you keep bringing me back to me. Hey, John, let me just remind you that it's Jesus that did this in me. Yeah. And so, yes, that's it. Faith-based work of just letting people know God loves them, that they have value, they have worth that cannot be taken from them, no matter where they are, what they've done. And you two shine with that, man. I'm just so grateful for both of you. Thank you for taking the time, just the generosity with both of your schedules to come here. Well, all that you do for Recovery Live.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:20

It's an honor. It's an honor to be invited into this. Yeah. Love the work you're doing, the person you are. Thank you for sure. Love you guys.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:27

Well, this is Living on Incline. Thank you to our guests. And again, hit that subscribe button and share the good stuff that God's doing in our neck of the woods. Thanks again, guys. God bless y'all. Thank you. Hey, thanks again for joining us on Living on Incline, sponsored by Recovery Life. Would you do us a favor and just hit that subscribe button, share with your friends? And again, we want to explore our full god-given potential and see what we are capable of. So, again, hit that subscribe button and thank you so much for joining us.