Who Gets the Glory: God or the Game

Have sports become a rival to our faith? We dig into how athletics can inspire growth but also distract Christians from worship, devotion, and what matters most.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome to episode five of Between Sundays. We have wrapped up our Kingdom Thinking series, but there's a couple of topics that we wanted to continue to hit on and we felt like would be appropriate as we're thinking about what does it look like to have a kingdom mindset in the world that we live in. And so we are in now a few weeks into football season, college football, NFL football, high school football. So we thought it'd be fun just to kind of talk a little bit about sports and and how we approach that as Christians, which might seem kind of weird to some folks, but to others it will make perfect sense why this would be a topic that we would cover. So today I have Seth Finch, our student pastor, joining me, and Alex Robinson, our community pastor. I'm Zach Casey, the executive pastor at City Awakening. And, you know, sports are a big deal today for both fans and participants alike. It's a major time commitment, financial commitment, energy commitment for a lot of people whether they're playing the sport they have kids playing the sport they're watching the sport as a fan going to games those kind of things so why do you guys just off the top of your head we haven't really prepped for this this is truly just conversational why do you think it's important or necessary to do an episode on sports like this

SPEAKER_02 1:29

well I mean I think sports are woven into most people's lives on some level whether like for my parents they didn't care about sports playing But then I was big into sports, so all of a sudden sports became a huge part of their lives. So whether you're a parent with a kid doing sports or you're a fan doing sports, it just affects so many people's lives on some level. And so it's very topical. And even here in Florida in particular, it's one of the most sports-heavy states in the country. Most major cities have one or two, three major sports franchises and or a college. And so it's everywhere. You can't go five feet without seeing someone's license plate or T-shirt or something where sports is not involved around here.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, I think I've heard someone say that sports, as we think about them, kind of came about as essentially almost like practice for war. You'd have a bunch of, usually your young men in your area, you would have like a war season, essentially, when you'd live. It's like you'd plant your crops, and then once you planted them, you'd go fight battles and stuff to keep your land and then you'd come back and you'd reap your crops and then you'd do it all over again and like sports became kind of the practice of that but I think we like it and get into it especially on the kind of the fandom side of things I'm sure we'll talk about kind of the playing it and trying to achieve stuff through it as well but I think we like it on the fandom side because all of us have and maybe this isn't great like replacement but all of us have these kind of like tribalism clan type things desires in us to like oh here are my own and we will be you know we'll win and we'll be victorious and I think sports give us something ideally of like a safer outlet for that of saying like oh here are the people I'm going to cheer for and therefore when they win it feels good and we can you know we can have kind of banter about my team beat your team all that kind of stuff obviously like anything we talk about we'd love to keep that in its proper context when we don't is when we now get sinful about it and it becomes too important to us and dominates our lives and causes us to you know spout off at people in ways we shouldn't so it's you know finding that balance but I think that's why I think innately we all have some like tribalism jingoism type stuff in us and we look a little more positive outlet is me cheering for my team as opposed to us fighting it out over differences and sports gives us that outlet

SPEAKER_00 4:01

yeah it's interesting actually earlier this summer or back in the summer I heard Jefferson Bethke he was talking about He was kind of doing a talk on manhood, biblical manhood, addressing a group of guys, and he used the field as a, you know, I guess a metaphor for where manhood develops. And you saying that makes me think, because he talked about the field as, in terms of planting, like as a farmer working in the field, the field as a battlefield, where obviously there's, you know, as a role in that, and then also the field as in terms of sports field, which also... All of those give us opportunity and the right conditions, if you will, specifically as men, but I mean, there's development as women as well, but for our character to be tested, our endurance, our perseverance, our grit, all those aspects that everybody talks about, kind of the benefits of sports. And so I think that's some of the positives of it, right? There's a lot of good things to participating in sports, even organized sports, Having a team, cheering for it. Some people might argue or ask the question, should Christians be competitive? Or is there a negative side to us being bought in from a competitive aspect? I definitely think there's a line

SPEAKER_02 5:22

that we have to check ourselves at. And that line is, where does it become an idol? Is my team winning or me competing and winning, is that the goal? Or is the goal looking back to, am I doing my best? best to glorify Christ and point to Him in my winning and in my fandom and how I carry myself. I don't think there's an issue with a Christian being competitive necessarily, though. I think that's something that God's actually given us to go out there and fight and accomplish something and goes back to those good things in sports. But I definitely think that Satan wants to push us over the line and where it becomes all about my glorification and my winning and my victory and not really why I'm doing it in the first place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

I see, you know, you see competitors go, go awry all the time. Like I see it at different levels. I mean, like when, when I was younger, if, if the Florida Gators lost like a basketball game or a football game, it would legitimately like ruin my next couple of days. Like I would be distraught and it would be terrible. Thankfully, I'm not like that now or else I'd be distraught a lot because we lose a lot of football, but, um, it is what it is. Um, but you know, I've seen that and I've seen people at like pickup ultimate frisbee games like almost get into fights because their team wasn't playing well and you just look around and you go hey man nobody's here to watch us like we're just it's a bunch of like guys in their 20s to 40s trying to stay in shape running around catching a frisbee but yet there's something in us gets that like yeah that just desire to win so yeah I think again it's something that can be pointed and used well when you're looking at life to say hey I'm gonna be competitive I think in a lot of sports you you know, psychologists try to do this with people too, is you're, you try to focus your main competition on competing like with yourself, like trying to do your, that's why some of the like racing sports and things like that can be a little healthier. Cause it's like, I'm going to swim my best race. I'm going to run my best race and let the chips fall where they may at that point. Um, so yeah, you're, you can compete against yourself. Am I doing what it takes to get better at this? My glorifying the Lord with my skills on this. And then, I'm going to trust him with the results, those kinds of things. So I think there's a good side to competitiveness, but obviously there is the negative coin there that we can go to as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Yeah. It does make me think too, like as time has evolved, work has evolved, our tasks, I'm just thinking out loud. I wonder if from a fandom perspective, the intensity is what it is because there's almost like that living vicariously thing. through the athletes on the field, because in the workplace or in our day to day, we maybe don't have that outlet for aggression or competitiveness in the same way. And so there's like a desire or an identifying with that with the players on the field. So you got people that are just going nuts from the stands because of that. So there's kind of a, you know, interesting to think about from that standpoint as well, that there's that hunger in us right like you guys are saying there's a hunger for that competitiveness for that fight but we don't always have a way to get that out in kind of the the lifestyle that most of us have today so we think about from the fan standpoint like participating in sports is one thing and there's the challenges of that but what about the culture that we see that's been formed around celebrity athletes the immense amount of money that gets poured into sports and You know, what are the problems with that, if any, do you think? And how should we respond to those as Christians or participate or not participate? This is

SPEAKER_01 9:22

tough. This is a tough one. I think that's the big drive behind what we see in some of the like youth sport movements of things where it's, you know, you got to have a trainer by the time you're seven, you got to be specialized and you got to be because the hope is that you can be good enough to to get to the point where you're going to make money off this and get endorsement deals and NIL now in college or whatever. So I think it's up to the ante at the lower level of like, oh, this could really like, you know, you could cash in and really kind of make it. And, you know, the stats are ridiculous of like how many kids are going to go on to play varsity sports and how many are going to go play college and how many are going to play pro. It just becomes this infinitesimally small number all chasing that one thing. So I think that certainly influences some of the negative even at the lowest levels of sports of man if I could just if we could just get our kid to do this that would be so that would be so awesome but then you also see guys that get to that level and use that platform really well you know and give glory to the Lord and have now the resources to help fund great things and do things so it again like everything in life it's I I don't think any level of achievement is necessarily a bad thing for a Christian to have. It's just what are you going to do with it and what's your foundation when you get there of am I doing this thing for the Lord? Am I going to look for now opportunities to bless him and glorify him with this? We would hope that we're doing the same thing if we're going into an office 9 to 5 versus if we're going and training to play a sport. But you now have kind of a platform. So I think it's just looking for your platform but recognizing that in the pursuit of that we can again make it an idol make it something that we now would sin to achieve or kind of forget God on the way that once we get there we kind of forget God and say man now I can do whatever I want and just kind of live high on the hog I think just having that foundation built protects you no matter where you fall kind of on that spectrum hopefully well I think as you're

SPEAKER_02 11:34

going into you talk about the young age that we're having kids with trainers and getting recruited and all this other stuff, NIL. And I think what's happened in sports as a whole is for the longest time you had team sports, basketball, football, baseball, soccer, that were team-driven. You had good players, but within the last 10 years with some of these shifts that we've seen with NIL, with social media, I think you've seen team sports become more individualized. And so now that's trickled down to the younger generations where it's like now I've got to make myself known. I've got to make myself more important at 14, 15, 16 in high school and then obviously in college. And that can be a very easy stumbling block and self-centeredness can become the goal if you're going down that. And so if you don't have those checks and balances in place, then all of a sudden you can look up and not recognize yourself and you've become the idol. Not even the sport, you've become the idol because you've been trying to prop yourself up for so long. And I think that's the culture that's happening in sports as a whole. right now that we have to fight against as christians

SPEAKER_00 12:42

yeah essentially the argument about you know the benefit of team sports and and being a part of a team and the coaching and in some ways the focus has gone away from that and it has become very individualistic even within the team sports uh you know the major basketball football soccer baseball those kind of things um which is does lead to all those issues and makes it about uh the player the person the child even if we're talking about the younger younger players and you certainly see that on the grand scale on this on the professional level um you know i'm not a huge sports fan i don't follow a lot you know but but i know enough to just just to see um everything from the way players handle their contracts you know and are you know shifted from team to team to the thing that i always get a kick out is watching them arrive at the games and the things that they wear yeah i mean like yesterday I just happened to click over and see Travis Kelsey coming up to the game, and he had on a suit, but his pants were torn off at the knee or cut off at the knee or something like that. And the commentators were joking about him making a statement. I was just like, who else would do that? You know what I'm saying? Some of the things these guys wear, but it's just, and I don't know what their heart behind it is, but it just seems like, yeah, let me just make a statement for myself in this so that people, it catches their eye, keeps my name in front of those kind of things you guys kind of mentioned this but has there been a shift Seth you talked about this in sports culture in more recent years where it's a bigger risk for people to participate kids participate in sports is it harder now do you think than it was in the past

SPEAKER_02 14:34

I mean I don't know maybe harder is the right word it's definitely different I think the rise of of the internet and social media and trying to get yourself out there because as i used to have students that have gone on to play college different college sports and they're sitting there talking to me in you know ninth and tenth grade i've got to get my twitter you know like i they don't they didn't participate in social media as heavily but they're like well i have to have this social media i have to have twitter instagram i've got to put my film on there i've got to be talking to coaches and those are those are things that you know 10 15 years ago 20 years ago you didn't have to think about as a high school kid and so I do think that can be a pitfall for a kid. And as we go back to our social media podcast, how there's a lot of perils as a 16-year-old making decisions on there if it's unchecked by your parents. And so now you almost feel there's a necessity to be on there as if I want to go play college ball. So I think that can be dangerous. I think that's something that I didn't have to encounter, that we probably didn't have to encounter when we were playing sports. Not that any of us were star athletes necessarily going to go play. Yeah, right. But I do think that that's something specifically from a student standpoint that they have to wrestle with. And also seeing the people that they look up to. And I don't think there's anything wrong with looking up to athletes, understanding that they're not God, that they can be a role model, be an example. But these guys that they're looking up to and the way they carry themselves and the individual nature that they carry, well, now they're trying to emulate that. And then that can become a pitfall for them as well and so I definitely think it's different and maybe it's harder but I do think each generation comes and goes and there's difficulties for us each so I don't know if we can accurately say if it's harder or easier but it's definitely different it's a new age that we're in in sports

SPEAKER_00 16:24

so practically speaking what would you say let's take it twofold what would you say to because I think we all played sports in high school at least what would you say to a young athlete who is maybe 10 11 12 years old and right now their site is set on you know making it big whatever how do they handle that moving forward or like what advice would you give them

SPEAKER_01 16:57

I mean I think it's I think it's worthwhile to have you know to have a goal for something and to try to be achieving something you know I'd rather, I'd rather meet a kid that had hopes and dreams and they were willing to put in the work toward it than just to be kind of like, just live life. I'm just going to have fun, whatever. It doesn't matter. Like it's, I think it's a better thing to try to do that. I think always trying to temper expectations, not, not like pour cold water on, on like a kid, but just like regulate expectation to be like, okay, well let's, let's shoot for like the more attainable goal first. And then we'll see what happens on the, on the back end you know most kids are not going to go become a professional athlete but you can say hey if you want to go if you want to play varsity a varsity sport here are the things you can work on and we'll we'll do these things and you're just going to better yourself and we're going to see you know you're going to get stronger do these kind of things and you get that kind of picture there's a kid on instagram i'm blanking on his name he's in like iowa or something and he he's just he seems like this relatively not that athletic kid and he started posting these videos where it's like day whatever of me trying to make the varsity basketball team and he he got this like huge following and it's literally started from like I want to say he was like in seventh grade and again he doesn't when he first starts you're like this is a long journey like I don't know if he's going to make it but he just would post like what he did each day to work out and it was like got up at five went to the Y got a workout in and then worked on these skills and it's him just like shooting shots and then like then played some five on five and did this thing and it and he gained this huge following of people who are just like I am so emotionally invested in this kid playing playing for a random Iowa high school, but he just had this dream and he worked on it. And he just seemed, you know, that was his goal. And so I think that's a good, it's a good thing to point you toward thing. And again, not making it like the God of your life, but just saying like, hey, you can achieve something. And then if your skills warrant that you could go take it to another level and you enjoy playing the sport, my advice to most people is like, carry it as far as you're willing to take it and want to pursue and then see what you know see see what doors the Lord opens for you and you just you go from there because it's a great it's a great thing to be on I think of like team sports it's a great thing to be on a team like I've some of my most fondest memories are just random bus rides going to play a game that nobody cares about you know nobody and now cares about that game but I still remember random things that happen and things like that and like the opportunities you get to bond with people and people be around people. And I got to, you know, be around guys that, you know, if I were to say, and like, I've talked about this with my parents, if I were to say like, Hey, I'm going to go hang out with these guys. My mom would have been like, no, you're not like, you're not, you're not going to that party. You're not going to their house. Like that's, that's not, that's not the crowd you're going. But like, okay. When you're on a team, you know, when you're playing on the team in the locker room, like you're going to, you know, you, you're going to, you're going to be around them and you get to have some influence hopefully on their life. And, um, I think that was a formative part of my life. So yeah, I would say just use it for the good things it is. I think like many things in life, God gives us good things to enjoy. It's enjoyable to be a fan of a team and watch them play and go to a game and see all the pageantry of it and all that kind of stuff. Those are enjoyable things. So enjoy the things that are good about it, but have the right perspective on, hey, this is something that God has given to me to enjoy and to follow to try to be a light in and that's what my goal is going to be as I do this and if it helps me better myself going forward great if I realize that it's starting to become an idol then I need to have the humility to do that or someone needs to be able to check me on it and you know just like anything else we would pursue yeah

SPEAKER_02 20:57

yeah I agree what you're saying and I think if you're talking to a 10 year old kid who's really passionate about being a football star someday you can't you can't eat a whole elephant in one bite you know what I'm saying and I think setting those goals while understanding that this is a big goal that I have but having these milestone goals along the way and then parents being active in being that check and that balance for them at that age especially you know how are you pointing towards Jesus in these goals he's obviously giving you these gifts and abilities so how can you use them for his glory while also working towards this goal that you feel like he's laid on your heart you know what I'm saying and I think and letting those two things marry one another, like be one with one another, and then see how far God takes it and what doors he does open up. And, you know, the odds of you playing in the NFL are probably pretty low. Heck, the odds of you playing in college are probably pretty low. But you never know how God's going to use and how they're going to grow and develop. But keeping Christ at the center of it is critical. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 21:58

I think fighting against that identity, that it becomes your identity, that that is who you are as an athlete, I think is what's key, too, is for– especially getting to the high school age, if you get some success, if you get recognized, start getting recognized, or even if you really are terrible and struggle, or you have that big fail or whatever, remembering and for parents to point to their kids, this is not your identity. You can play a sport, you can be an athlete, but your identity is not wrapped up in that, but in Christ. Which leads to my next question, maybe harder. What do you say to the adult, maybe the parent, but to the adult who is just passing about sports um how what warnings are there for them maybe this is something you tell yourself i don't know um how do we as christians uh find that balance uh to be a great fan to be involved you know cheer for our team but not go over the top i think if you're

SPEAKER_02 22:58

an adult one and you're super passionate about sports and god's giving you the ability be a coach you know i'm saying that's one of the things i have an outlet yeah like go go be a coach it's scratch is a competitive it lets you pour into the next generation of young ones at whatever age it is maybe it's your coach and your daughter's first grade softball team or maybe you're coaching varsity sports whatever it is but go be a coach go be in those places where sports you know is not inherently Christian and go be a Christian go be a light in those places

SPEAKER_00 23:28

and I've never been in a league where there's not enough or where there's too many coaches no refs

SPEAKER_02 23:34

and coaches there's always going to be a shortage always going to be a shortage so like go explore that as an outlet as an opportunity and as a fan remember that whether I'm in the stadium or I'm at my house my yelling and my screaming and the things I say are they reflecting Christ or are they not you know you can be a passionate fan and be excited for your team while also glorifying the Lord in speech and conduct and so keeping that lens up with whatever you're doing it's not like for three hours on Sunday afternoon from 1 o'clock to 4 o'clock I get to take that lens off you know what I'm saying or whatever it is so yeah Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 24:09

I don't think you get to be, I think maturing is realizing I don't get to be a different person with a different moral code just like when my team is playing. I don't get to say, oh, because, or when I'm playing a sport or something like that. Because I would realize that when I was in high school or even when I was in college just playing intramural sports or something. The things you'll say in your head or out loud while you're playing a sport would not be the things you do in normal life. And you're like, okay, I can't be two different people. Right. I'm like, I'm called to be, you know, I'm too hard to follow God regardless of this. I can't, I can't allow like sports Alex to be this like incredibly harsh person. And then this other, you know, I turn it off afterward. So I think it's just finding that place where I might act a little differently when I'm like watching a game just because it's that different environment, but not I'm, I'm going to compromise in the middle of that because, well, I'm just so fired up right now. Um, Um, I think, yeah, just not, you don't, you don't get to say like, Hey, it's Saturday or Sunday of football season. This is who I am right now. And then switch that off and say, now I'm back to being right. You know, the, the more contained, uh, controlled version of myself.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah. And there's a lot of actually negative fallout from that. I've heard, I've talked to many people who's as a child, that was their dad. Sure. Right. And they got caught in, the crossfire, if you will, standing in front of the TV or being around after the team lost or those kind of things. And so it has a ripple effect that has a lasting impact for generations to come, literally, because people will carry that with them for a long time, those kind of things. So I think it is important to remember that and to be consistent with who we are. Be who you're going to be and don't let sport or anything else for that matter. Change that, as you guys are saying. And I think about it in terms of discipleship. We talk about this a lot, but like how it affects our head, heart, and hands, right? So in our head, how we think about that competitiveness, like winning above all is not the goal. Yes, we want to win. You play to win. But that can't become the idol, right? We're making it me-centered as we were talking about how I think about myself and view myself. All affects my head. My heart, my mind, What do I worship? I mean, we talk about being at a college football stadium is a great picture of worship, right? You got the fans, 100,000 fans going nuts. That's a form of worship. But for us as Christians, we have to ask, like, what are we ultimately worshiping? And what are we making an idol? And then our hands, of course, as you guys are saying, how we act, how we speak, how we prioritize our time and energy, how it affects our relationships, the language that we use, all those things. And so when we think about as a disciple we can always evaluate our head heart and hands in those ways which leads to my last question as we're thinking about this we're all pastors we serve at the church we've been a part of the church how does how does sports compete with church and how do you how do we how do we deal with that or what how can we guide our people in that struggle as well Seth you ever had sports compete with you ever had sports compete with student ministry

SPEAKER_01 27:37

yeah yeah A1 example there. I'll tell

SPEAKER_02 27:40

you this, man. Student ministry specifically, if your kid sees at whatever age it is, obviously I handle 12 to 18-year-olds predominantly, but if your kid sees at that age that practice on Wednesday night or Sunday night or Thursday night or whatever it is is more important than gathering with the body of Christ, man, it makes it so much easier for Satan to put them away from the church when they turn 18 and they get the opportunity to make their decisions on their own and I've seen it a lot you know I've seen really good Christian families that love the Lord and kids that are in the youth band and are leaders and all these different things and but when sports becomes that main thing and it takes over from gathering with the body of Christ and being in that community and being in those gospel centered conversations it makes it so easy for them to leave and it and it's, and it's, it's something that you can affect now, you know, it's not too late. You can, you can change those things. Now you can, you can prioritize gathering with the body of Christ now and, and, and sports can come second and that's okay. They, your kid may get a little annoyed at you at first, but, but that's your job as a parent. Your job is not to be the friend, but to be the, to, to be the leader of your household to, uh, to pour into your kids. So yeah, it's, it's easy though. It's easy for that to come a slippery slope.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Yeah. Uh, yeah. I mean, that's the big one. I've, I've, I've had experience with too uh yeah I mean I mean we had someone that came to our church early on that it was a big deal when they started coming to our church because he had to miss a basketball game he had played in on Sunday mornings for for years and that was like a big hurdle for him um and he ended up coming it was a good thing for him at the time but it um yeah it I think things anything can become anything especially that like eats up your schedule can can become something that draws you away from community in the church. And I would say just utilize. Again, sports are like anything else. We can utilize them for good. We can utilize them for bad. If you love sports, utilize them to bring people together around it. If your kid plays in a league, how am I getting to know the other parents there? Do we have relationships with them? Can they come over to our house? Hey, I found out that this guy from work also likes this team. It's like my team or the opposite. team hey we're about to play each other why don't y'all come over do these kind of things like you can facilitate and then you get the best of both worlds right you're you're still enjoying the thing you like but now you're getting to do that toward like a kingdom purpose which i think is the sweet spot when we when we find that that's when like personal ministry becomes easy

SPEAKER_03 30:25

yeah

SPEAKER_01 30:25

because it's like oh i can just enjoy the stuff i like strategically for the lord great like that's that's stuff that lasts yeah um so i think just finding the niche for that and then you to you know being just ready in all seasons to kind of give that

SPEAKER_00 30:42

yeah think about how exciting or energizing that to be somebody's passion about sports and you say we talk about living missionally or finding your purpose or how God's calling you to use or we use the e-word evangelism like that sounds scary but as people think about well if I can do that around sports like that sounds exciting right like if I can use that but that's that's the whole point we talk about is like Monday through Saturday or Sunday afternoon like using that as a a missional opportunity to connect with other people build those relationships and I think again that's one of the great things about sports is it's a common ground for people to come around even if their teams are competing there's still a camaraderie and an understanding there that's good and I do think it does compete with the church a lot and unfortunately some of that I think is the shift that you know you're going to have to decide like am I going to say no to a Wednesday night practice am I going to say no to a turn out of town on Sunday. We'll be there Saturday. Sorry, coach, but we can't make the Sunday game. Those are really, really hard decisions to make and to have to tell your kid that this is what we're going to do if they're not on board with that. But to your point, Seth, as parents, we set the standard for that now that's going to carry over down the road once they move out of their house. And so I think just like all these things we've talked about in this series, be intentional, give thought to it, don't just go with the flow and fall in line with the current of what everybody else is doing but be prepared to go against the current and to make your own decisions and to make hard sacrificial decisions when it's necessary and I think it can be a great thing so I appreciate you guys joining us if you have questions or comments you want us to address there's a link in the description that you can send us a message we'd love to follow up with you possibly even answer that question on a future episode so next time We'll be talking about some other ways that our faith comes up against culture and how we can address those in practical ways as Christians. So thanks for tuning in.