Part 2- Dr. Lorri Sulpizio-Chemistry, Conflict and Control- The Truth About Lesbian Relationships

In part two of her interview with coach Dr. Lorri Sulpizio, Quincy and Lorri discuss “growing up” in relationships by slowing down, prioritizing self-understanding over labels, and avoiding measuring love by speed rather than safety. They explore midlife women leaving long heterosexual marriages for relationships with women, the intensity of lesbian relationships, outness mismatches, and how fear and attachment wounds can drive conflict, red-flag blindness, and choosing partners who soothe old pain. Lorri describes her couples and one-on-one coaching approach, emphasizing emotional regulation, psychological safety, advocacy, conflict repair, and practical tactics like talking side-by-side or on walks. The episode also includes a first sponsor spot for Sheridan In-Home Care, an LGBT-founded provider serving Greater LA and the Coachella Valley, and ends with reflections on representation, Instagram-based lesbian relationship content, and modeling healthy relationships for kids.

00:00 Part Two Setup

01:26 Sponsor Break

02:22 Media Queerbait Talk

03:47 Midlife Coming Out

06:20 Labels Versus Self

07:37 Coaching And Outness

10:31 Outness Conflict Repair

14:18 Relationship Lessons

16:20 Spotting Red Flags

19:19 Repair Without Shame

20:59 Attachment Wounds

27:37 Excitement Versus Safety

28:52 Premarital Skills Gap

31:11 Childhood Patterns Repeat

32:34 Couples Coaching Method

36:06 Modeling For Kids

38:07 Repair After Hurt

38:28 Blending Families Later

40:29 Intentional Role Blending

42:35 Family Meetings Not Balance

48:59 Holding Without Control

52:49 Side By Side Conflict

55:39 Hiking And Connection

59:12 Devices And Disconnection

01:01:05 Instagram And Representation

01:07:18 Final Reflections And Thanks

Find Lorri here:

https://www.lorrisulpizio.com/

https://www.instagram.com/lorrisulpizio/

Sheridan In-Home Care:

https://www.sheridancare.com/

310.204.1187

https://www.instagram.com/sheridancare/

Transcript

0:02

Hello and welcome back to part two of our interview with Lori sio. She is so entertaining and so much fun, and I wanna go back to part one was about the follow. But this one is about growing up. So in part two, Lori and I talk about slowing down, about prioritizing self understanding over labels, about not rushing to define yourself before you actually understand yourself. We talk about lesbian intensity and how sometimes we measure love by speed instead of safety. We get into conflict repair. Red flags we ignore because the chemistry feels electric attachment wounds that masquerade as this is meant to be. We've been there, right? And we talk about the difference between choosing a partner. And choosing someone who simply soothes old pain. This is where Lori's coaching with lesbian couples comes in, helping women build emotional regulation, psychological safety, and relationships where being held isn't control. It's steadiness. This episode isn't dramatic. It's mature, it's honest, and it might make you slow down in the best ways.

Quincy 1:25

And guess what? We have our first commercial of Cocoon After Dark. I am so proud to introduce Sheridan In-home healthcare, our elders didn't fight to live openly just to feel invisible in their final chapters. That's why Sheridan in in-Home Care. Founded by Susan Dost, a proud member of the LGBT community. This isn't performative inclusion. It's personal. Sheridan provides in-home care that respects dignity chosen family, and the full truth of who someone is. No erasure, no assumptions, just dignity. If your loved one deserves to age boldly and safely, visit sheridan care.com or call 3 1 0. 2 0 4 11 87. They are serving all of greater LA area and the entire Coachella Valley, so thank you.

Lorri 2:21

Nice. Thank

Quincy 2:22

you. Welcome back. So before we came on to record, we started to talk about the hunting wives and I was cracking up and we were talking about how the media is sort of starting to quote unquote throw us bones. Mm-hmm. With these straight women making out and having sex and all these beautiful things between not actual lesbians and when are they going to actually use lesbians, right. For these kinds of shows. So let's talk about that just for a few minutes from our perspective. Yeah. I'm Gen X. You are? Yeah. Gen X. Gen X. So we have a very different perspective on what say the 40-year-old moms at our school are experiencing right now. They've been married 15 ish years. They're getting a little bit squirrely. Things like the hunting wives come out and boom, we have this full on. Like, where did all these. Not straight women, sort of straight women come out of the woodwork. And how are you sort of using that as an example in your practice maybe, or in, in trying to study what happens when you suddenly realize that that sexuality is much more neutral? Right. Yeah, it's, it's very fluid in things.

Lorri 3:39

Yeah. I mean I think, I always would joke, can't have an inside joke 'cause my friends would say there's no such thing as a street woman.

Quincy 3:45

True. But it's true.

Lorri 3:47

And it's, I mean, sorry, all joking aside you know, I think, I don't necessarily use it in my practice, but what I have had is a lot more women who are in their forties or mid, you know, midlife age and have left heterosexual relationships, long marriages, long relationships, and have now entered into a relationship with a woman and are like. Whoa, this is different. Can you help me? You know, can you help me understand myself? Can you help me understand sort of the intensity of all this? And so I have a lot of clients for that, that's their story, that's their reality. And I think it is just, you know, it's both a question of, you know, is this who I always was? Is this who I'm gonna be for the rest of my life? You know, they're reconciling with what does this mean for me? Does it invalidate the fact that I spent two decades married to my husband? Does it, you know, what does it mean? And so we just take the time to explore who they are, explore kind of where they are in the moment, and with this new relationship that they found. Try to help them kind of understand a little bit the complexity and the dynamics of two women together. 'cause there's some differences. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so I've definitely seen kind of an influx, you know, of that. I don't know if it's 'cause of the hunting wives, but it's there.

Quincy 4:58

I mean, is it, is the hunting wives, is it when the other L word came out? Is it just that there's so much more vocalization about being gay or not being gay because I knew I was gay since I was 10. Mm-hmm. Despite the fact that I got married to a man, had kids with him and you know, he was my best friend, you know, for years and years and years. Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, he's not now, but he still obviously is in my life. Mm-hmm. We have kids together.

Lorri 5:23

Yeah.

Quincy 5:23

But so people are like, oh, but how did you know you were gay? You don't just know you're gay when you're that young. But now as an adult, you find that piece of you and it's so beautiful. Right? Mm-hmm. Like you said, it's so beautiful to, have that opportunity to experience what you and I have been experiencing for most of our lives, even if there was, you know, a pause between one or the other.

Lorri 5:47

Yeah.

Quincy 5:48

And letting ourselves sort of wrap our heads around that it's okay for all these women to sort of suddenly be almost at your feet. Right? Because they're asking you questions and they wanna know this and how do you do that? And, you know, should I call her? And how do you go down on a girl and, you know, all these things and you're just like you know, I'm looking at somebody that I've known is straight for a long time, but were you, you know, and you're trying to like help them, but I don't know. Tell me, what do you say?

Lorri 6:20

I think in terms of identity, I, I think it's actually. Less important to have to label yourself in this moment, if that's your experience, right? Mm-hmm. I would be less concerned about knowing, you know, what does this mean about who I was and who I am? I would just take the moment for what it is. I think it'd be really beautiful if as humans we could be open to meeting whoever brings out the best in us. Mm-hmm. And, you know, ignites passion in our heart, helps us laugh, becomes a soft place for us to land. Like all the things that a good relationship would do. Mm-hmm. If it's a man, if it's a man, if it's a woman. If it's a woman, right. So we wouldn't kind of fight so much against the categories and the rules. I think there are people that definitely lean, I mean, I think I was, knew I was gay since I was a kid, and there was never a question. But not everybody is, I mean, that's not everybody's experience. And so I think. It's not judging your experience, not trying to make yourself wrong, or that you were confused. Maybe you did have inklings and you had the pressure to get married to a man. Like, all right, you know, instead of judging it, we try to understand like, what does it mean for you now? How can you make, you know, good sense of yourself and get to know yourself? What questions do you have so you can be the best you in this relationship that you're currently in? That's the approach that I take with My clients.

Quincy 7:37

And then, so do they come in like for sessions? Is it like group coaching? How does it work?

Lorri 7:42

So I do couples coaching and, and one-on-one coaching. So sometimes it's a one-on-one, you know, where someone just wants to understand, you know, how can I learn more about the community? These are. And a lot of it becomes about themselves, right? What does this mean for me? What does this mean for my choices? What does this mean for if, if you have kids? What does this mean for me as a mom? How do I talk to my kids about this? How do I talk to my parents or my siblings, you know, my adult siblings about this? And so it's just helping them kind of understand themselves first and an individual kind of relationship. An individual client relationship. In the couple's coaching, it is, it's, it's the couple, right? So maybe there's elements of outness. Uh, you see different levels of outness can cause a lot of tension. So if you have somebody new to a lesbian relationship, they may not want to be fully out, but someone who's been fully out may not want to go back in the closet. You're also faced with the fact that every time you meet somebody new, you have to decide, do I come out to them and tell them? Do I not? Do they know? Do they hear? I mean, so, you know, we've got some kinda nuances that we face in our relationships that in a straight relationship you don't face.

Quincy 8:44

Right. And suddenly it's like you're inundated with it, right? Yeah. Like you said, like you're going out and. You might be uncomfortable with new people, people that you know, seeing you. Mm-hmm. Like that's a really right, crazy place to be if you're not used to it. One of the things my mom said, because she wasn't, and still isn't very com at all, actually comfortable with it, but one of her biggest things was, I need to know where you're gonna be so I don't show up there and see you.

Lorri 9:11

Oh wow.

Quincy 9:11

And that was really hard. Yeah. And I was like, well, I've never seen you before when I was married to the son-in-law that you've still adore. Like, I don't get this. Why all of a sudden now is there's so much pressure for you to stay away from me, basically. Yeah. And then my daughter said mommy, does this mean my whole life was a lie because you love women and you know, answering those questions, like there was just so many questions and I had to go back. No, I've known since I was 10 that I was gay and the whole story and kind of lead up to it. People can, you know, marry whoever they want and she already knew that. But it was like re. Iterating. Yeah. That even your own mommy can marry and be with whomever she wants.

Lorri 9:49

Yeah.

Quincy 9:50

But what do you think is the biggest obstacle then in these new relationships where you're with a very out lesbian for a long time? Because Right. That's what a lot of other newer, like women experiencing women positions are in. Like, that's hot and sexy to them, right? Like you have experience, you can quote, unquote, turn me, teach me. Mm-hmm. You know, all these things that people say to us, you know, before now or whenever. And how do you feel getting them to understand how the out person feels? Versus how they feel. Like you said, going back in the closet how do you really, really navigate that?

Lorri 10:31

Yeah, I think you, like with any tension or conflict in a couple's, you know, relationship, it's getting to the underneath, right? So getting to the fears, getting through to the disappointments, getting through. I mean, it really, it is the fear at the end of the day. You know, it's for the person who's out. It's like, I'm, I'm afraid that I'm going to lose myself when I spent however long fi, like truly loving and finding myself and not being in the closet. You know? So if you've done that work and all of a sudden you've been asked, you're asked to go back in the closet, it can feel really threatening to your identity. And it's a big sense of loss for this self, maybe that you have worked really hard to discover and to embody and to love. As a flip side, you've got this person who's new and they're afraid of, how do I navigate all the judgements of others? And I don't wanna, I, I'm not questioning myself, but I know that the outside world's gonna have a ton of questions and judge me or my mom is gonna say, I don't wanna find you in public, which is really painful. Mm-hmm. So it's helping each other understand what the core fear or pain point is underneath their position. And then look for ways that they can align. So where are there places where the two of you can't be out and express your love? Maybe it's with a group of friends in a house. Maybe it's finding a lesbian or a gay bar. Maybe it's going to an Indigo Girls concert or a Brandy Carlisle concert. You know, someplace where you feel like it feels really safe for the person who's not out to be out. And the person who's out gets a little bit of that freedom. And then where does the person who's out kinda need to meet that person and be patient with them in their process of really figuring out how they can live out in the world in this new way? 'cause it, it's different. And if you've been in a heterosexual relationship where you've never had to think twice about people looking at you, or people you know, you've never really had to think about your sexual orientation, but now all of a sudden you do. So I think for those of us that have, you know, been gay forever, a little compassion is important. Mm-hmm. But also then the understanding that it taps on our own sense of our identity that we have worked really hard to love and embrace.

Quincy 12:28

Mm-hmm.

Lorri 12:28

So it's coming together to have those conversations and try to understand each other.

Quincy 12:33

When you are sitting there talking with them and you can feel that maybe one partner isn't gonna. The partner where they want them to be. Like, do you start sort of prepping them that they're never gonna meet you there? Or how do you navigate when you just see that it's not ever gonna happen? And yet they both want to because they don't wanna be, like you said, failing at mm-hmm. Being a woman, basically. Excuse me.

Lorri 12:59

Yeah. So I would never say they're never gonna meet you there, because I think that's already kind of dooming, you know, the outcome and it, and you don't know if they're never gonna meet you there. But I think what I would say is, it sounds like right now they're not ready to meet you there. So then if, if either way if whoever needs to face the fact that your partner in this moment isn't ready to meet you where you would like to be met, then we talk about like, so then what does that mean for you? Are you willing to be patient? Are you willing to maybe express what you need and get it met in a different way? You know? Or is this a deal breaker for you? Is this like kind of a boundary where it's like, it's either you're fully out or I can't be with you. It's just helping people really uncover like what's most important to them. And if they love each other, depending on where they are and kind of the, the trajectory of their relationship, it might be saying like, right in this moment you know, you both are gonna need to give a little, but let's take some time. Let's continue to work together. Let's kinda build trust to build some stability under this relationship, especially if it's new. And then we can go from there continuing to notice. And this doesn't have to do only without this. I mean, if you have an ask of your partner and they're continuing to say like, no, no, no, I'm not gonna meet that, you know, meet your need, I'm not gonna give you any part of that ask you need, then you need to ask yourself a hard question. Is this the relationship for you?

Quincy 14:18

Well, 'cause I remember listening to your Instagram saying it might've been a right relationship, but not at that time. Like it was meant to teach you a lesson. Yes. So those lessons that we can. I mean like in all the filled relationship I have, what are those lessons that you're like, how quickly are you supposed to see them? How long are you supposed to stay in the relationship before you realize that you've learned the lesson? How do you figure out when the lesson has been learned, basically?

Lorri 14:46

Well, and it may not be learned. I mean, you know, it may be a lesson that then the relationship ends and then you're like, oh, that's a lesson I have to learn, right? Mm-hmm. So I think there, unfortunately there's no script, but what do I encourage people to do is like, be intentional about, you know, who you are in your relationship, about who you want to be back, you know, to come back to you in relationship. Who do you want your partner to be? How do you wanna exist as a unit? Learn to advocate for yourself. Learn to ask for what you need. Learn to be willing to give what you need. Like let's, you know, if you notice you have conflicts, like let's try to work on the conflicts. Let's you know a lot can be done in couples coaching, couples therapy, that kind of thing. And we don't often get skills in relationship. Relat shipping, you know? Right. And so I think part of it is gaining some skills and then once you realize like, this relationship is complete, like I just, we're at a standstill. We are not, neither of us are willing anymore to do it, and it's not meeting me. It's, you know, it's, it's done. Then it's, okay, well what did this teach me? What did this mean for me? Mm-hmm. You know, what did I, who did I like, you know, the about me in this relationship, who did I not like? What did I get from this relationship that I wanted to carry forward to my next relationship? What do I wanna make sure I don't take forward in another relationship? Like, those are the kinds of lessons if you're willing to ask those questions after you grieve the loss and the pain. Yeah. I mean, when you're in pain from a breakup. Take care of yourself. Right. Support yourself. Yeah. And then when you're ready, asking some of these deeper questions to understand, you know, yourself in that relationship and how you wanna move forward. That's where the learning can come in.

Quincy 16:20

I remember after one of my breakups, I thought to myself, how did I not see all the red flags? How do you teach people to notice a red flag? I mean,

Lorri 16:32

because I don't know. Well, I think, yeah, I think you have to be attentive and intentional and aware. You know, so it's being aware of the relationship, it's being aware of yourself, it's being aware of how often you are, you know, letting go of your needs. How often you are having to give in, how often you're feeling lonely or isolated. How often you're seeing things that are like, I don't like this. You know, the way she talks to my, you know, siblings or my friends, the way she doesn't want me to go out with my friends. Like, these things are feeling, you know, icky to me. And if you. Ignore those yucky feelings, then you're ignoring potentially red flags, or you're missing the opportunity to kind of course correct. 'cause there's gonna be parts in the relationship that are, we're gonna rub up against each other, you know, not in that fun way, but in conflicting ways, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and so if you ignore them and only focus on the good, then you're missing a chance to actually create a really strong foundation with what you both need. What are the expectations? Where have there been some, you know, like regrettable incidences that you wanna talk about to make that foundation strong? Often we get so kind of into the bliss, or women don't want to ask for what they need because then they feel needy and they don't want to feel needy, so then they don't ask for what they need until six months, a year, two years, four years, 14 years, and you're like, this sucks. You know, I'm empty, I'm alone. And it's like I knew it all along. So it's getting people, helping people learn how to ask for what they need, and then listen to what their partner needs. Come together from that place.

Quincy 18:01

Well, in last episode we were talking about like mothers needing things, right? Mm-hmm. But I feel like in all of the therapy and spending time by myself and things like that, I'm completely capable of asking for that now in relationships. Definitely still not with the mom part, just because, you know, I feel like I can do it all the time.

Lorri 18:21

Yes. Yeah.

Quincy 18:22

But with relationships specifically, I feel like I have gotten to that place where I know exactly the kind of person I wanna be, and I will rehearse in my head old patterns. Just so that I make sure I don't do that again, that like my brain will go, oh, you should just be pouty and you should like complain. And I'm like, no, that was old you like knew you, says here's what hurt me and I need to tell you why it hurt me. Love it.

Lorri 18:49

Oh, so

Quincy 18:50

good. And while that's painful for the other person here, for the person that's healed, right? And the other person is healed too, but or not, or what have you working on being healed. Because if they wanna be with you, right, they're healing. But for the healed person in that particular moment and time, it is so freeing to get that off your chest and be able to say, straight up, this is something I didn't like. So how do you get people to like, ah, like just spit it out?

Lorri 19:18

Yeah. Well I think that's the part of like our ideas about what relationships are is if we should never hurt our partner, you know, we should never disappoint the people that we love. So not true. You are gonna disappoint your partner. You're gonna disappoint your kids, you're gonna hurt your kids. Your kids are gonna hurt you. I mean, your best friends are gonna hurt each other. I mean, it's like, it's just, it's who we are as humans. And so I think if we can learn to not attach you hurt me to you are bad, or me feeling like, oh, I hurt you. I must be such an asshole. Or, oh, you're gonna break up with me. You don't love me. So we immediately turn it into something that it's not, as opposed to just listening to this, I'm so sorry I hurt you. Mm-hmm. And I, you know, this took me a long time to learn because I was one where I would immediately either go to like, what can to see how hard I've been working, you know what I mean? All the things I've been doing, and you're gonna come at me for this one thing, as opposed to like, yes, to all the things I've been doing. And this one thing kind of was ais, this one thing was hurtful. That's it. Lori, chill out, relax, like, you know what I mean? I don't have to then keep score and show all the things I didn't do that was hurtful. The reality is I did a hurtful thing. Don't, I want to amend the person that I love the most. You know, don't I want to amend with my kids, with my partner, with my family? So I think it's separating kind of that next interpretation of if we raise conflict, if we, you know, raise an issue, if we share hurt, it means that the relationship is somehow bad. It's threatened, or you failed me. You didn't fail me. You just hurt me and I'm gonna hurt you, you know, next week. And we're gonna work through it and we're gonna amend, repair, and love each other through.

Quincy 20:59

Why do you think so many people have sort of this abandonment issue then when things start to go awry? Because the majority, most of us weren't abandoned. Like, that's not a very typical thing to actually be abandoned. Right? Even if your parents ignored you and things like that, which is a different sort of abandonment. But we mostly grew up with someone in a home and we got to where we are now, but the the automatic responses, you're leaving me, you're gonna break up with me.

Lorri 21:26

Well, I think you'd even be a little more subtle in that, right? Mm-hmm. Because even imagine if you grew up in a, in a home where you know your needs didn't get met. Mm-hmm. In terms of, you want, like we talked about in the first episode, you wanted to just play for fun, but you only got love when you won the championship or were the high score. Mm-hmm. So you learn early on that your true need just to be seen for the process and for the love of the game wasn't going to be met. You were only seen for an output, an outcome, you know, the performance. So all of a sudden your partner tells you that your performance. Wasn't great and you hurt them, you're going right back to that person who was, the process was never valued.

Quincy 22:05

Mm.

Lorri 22:05

Right. And so we have all these little kinds of situations like that where we learn early if we are seen or not seen. You know, were you, how was your friend group in middle school and high school? You know, how was you? How were you with your siblings? How did you get your voice? You know, could you say things in your childhood home? Could you ask for what you need? What happened if you asked for what you need? When you looked at other people asking for what they need, what happened? So we learn all these things and then we interpret it to the lessons and rules of us in the world. If I ask for help, it means I'm weak. Well, I'm not gonna ask for help. If I say that you hurt me, then my mom would start to cry. You know, if I told my mom I was upset about something or I wanted something different, she would start sobbing and say, oh, I do so much for you, you, you and your brothers never see anything that I do. Well, then you learn. I'm not gonna ask because I don't want my mom to be sad. Right. So then you learn about, you become, become a people pleaser. So it's not abandoned. You were left on the doorstep, you know, of the fire station type abandon. Yeah. It's all these subtle ways that we learned that maybe our voice didn't get heard, our needs didn't matter. You know, showing up and being seen wasn't gonna happen, you know? And they could be subtle and or overtly painful. Being bullied, being teased, you know, wanting your parents there. Maybe your parents worked all the time and you just were left to your own devices. That person's gonna, and you wanted love from your parents. I mean, then you got the avoidant personality, right? Mm-hmm. So you wanted love from your parents, and so they weren't there. So now you learn like, I gotta take care of myself. So am I really gonna trust you who I love the most? But look, I love my parents the most. They didn't show up for me. So I'm gonna instead be distant and be really cautious and not go all in because of that. I already lived through that pain once.

Quincy 23:50

Right.

Lorri 23:50

No thanks.

Quincy 23:51

I have the, the sense and not so much anymore, but before that, I'm just gonna do it myself and take care of myself anyway, because when I have asked for something, you don't meet me there. Right. You say you're going to and you let me down. It's like all words and no performance, right? Yeah. There's people say actions speak louder than words, and I 100% believe that.

Lorri 24:16

Yeah.

Quincy 24:16

Somebody will sit there and talk to me and say all these great things and I'm like, that doesn't, I, you tell me everything you want, but if I don't see it. I don't feel it. Mm-hmm. You know, and I, I feel it to a certain degree, but I don't feel it like in my core because I haven't seen it. Mm-hmm. Repetitively, you know?

Lorri 24:33

Yeah.

Quincy 24:33

And I don't, it's, you know, it's still a downfall. Yeah. But it's definitely something that I pay attention to.

Lorri 24:39

Yeah. And so the two situations with that, I would say is one, if it's a person, so like, let's your best friend, right? And if that's often the case, then it would be you finding your voice to say, Hey, you know what? Every time you say you're gonna, you know, pick up my daughter. Every time you say you're gonna bring us food, you don't. Mm-hmm. So I just don't trust it. I love you a lot. We have a great time when we go to happy hour, but when you offer to help me, history shows that you don't show up. Mm-hmm. I'm just gonna be honest with you, so just please don't offer anymore. Mm-hmm. So that's one thing if it truly is happening. The other thing though, is to recognize that like your current partner, another mom at the school, like they're not your best friend. Mm-hmm. They're not her. So sometimes we. You know, bad behavior and we think everybody's gonna repeat that bad behavior for us. Mm-hmm. And then it's not fair.

Quincy 25:27

Right.

Lorri 25:27

Right. Because our current partner, it's like they're not your ex. You know, they're not your mom. They're not your like, give them a chance to do it differently. And of course your fears are valid. Like it's No, I know this one. Like, I'm not gonna get my needs met or you're gonna say it, so I'm automatically gonna assume you're gonna let me down. But that's unfair.

Quincy 25:45

Yeah. Totally.

Lorri 25:45

Give them a chance to show up for you and then if they don't, we can have that conversation. But often it's old wounds Yeah. That we're throwing into our current relationship.

Quincy 25:55

Yeah. And that's such a battlefield because your instinct is, this is the same thing that's already happened to me before. Yeah. Oh my god. No, please not again. Yeah. Right. Instead of going, okay, this person doesn't know this about me. Take a break. Right. Step back. Yeah. And see them for who they are and just. Let them come towards you.

Lorri 26:18

Right. Yeah. Which, well, I love what you said, which is they don't know this about me. And so for us to realize it's about us. It's us. You know, this is our work to do. It's, you know, we are the ones that need to change. We are the ones that need to recognize if we have sort of anxious attachment avoidant, like what we do and why to say like, oh, they're actually, you know, there's nothing threatening in this relationship. I'm just super scared of being cheated on again. You know, there's nothing, you know, threatening about this relationship and they're actually totally showing up for me. But I'm so used to people not, I'm already assuming it's gonna happen, and so I'm needy and clingy. Right. So if we can get that self-awareness and own the parts of ourselves that are showing up, then we can work on 'em and we can figure out which might be legitimate. And we might need to say, Hey, can you text me when you're gonna be home late? And where we might have to say she text, it was just a late meeting. I'm good.

Quincy 27:13

Yeah. Not, oh my God. She went drinking with her friends. Yes. And she screwed somebody in the bathroom.

Lorri 27:17

There goes the spiral. Right? A hundred percent. A hundred percent

Quincy 27:20

right.

Lorri 27:20

Yeah, because,

Quincy 27:21

oh my God. I mean, thank God I didn't have to deal with that very often, but I remember my friends doing that and I was like, dude, she literally is probably just like, maybe she got gas on the way home. Right. She's five minutes late.

Lorri 27:34

Yeah.

Quincy 27:34

You know, but they would just be like freaking out.

Lorri 27:37

Yeah.

Quincy 27:37

So how do you help lesbian women distinguish between choosing someone who excites them and choosing someone who can actually meet them long term?

Lorri 27:45

Why can't we have both?

Quincy 27:47

Well, we can, but when they do the U-Haul link that you and I were like briefly talking about how do we help them sort of. Slow it down and

Lorri 27:56

Yeah.

Quincy 27:56

You know,

Lorri 27:57

so I think slowing down is the key, right? So I think, you know, two women like lesbian enmeshment is such a thing because it is intense and the emotions are there, and all of a sudden the conversations are deeper and the emotions are richer. And it's like, oh my gosh, this is what I've been waiting for. This is amazing. And you go so fast, you don't get a chance to build that foundation. And it's not even like you miss the red flags. You didn't get a chance to even see the parts that might be mini barriers or bumps in the road to work on them. Because you went so fast, right? So often that slowing down process allows a little bit more intentionality and explicit attention to maybe those parts that are becoming little barriers, little bumps in the road, little places where, you know, the attachment styles are hitting little places where needs are not being met. So you can kind of set that foundation first.

Quincy 28:47

Oh gosh, that sounds everyone should go to pre even relationship counseling. Right? Oh my gosh. You know how in we were both raised Catholic? Yeah. So the premarital counseling before you get married in the church, everyone I think should have this. And why don't you think more people do it before they get into the re like heavy into the relationship?

Lorri 29:06

Yeah, I think, I mean it's certainly within some religions they still, they, you know, they do it where you meet with your rabbi or your, your priest. Um, I think part of the problem is that we're fed this image on mo in movies and TV of these kind of relationships that are such fantasy, you know? Or there are either the arc of the kind of falling in love, which is blissful, and then one conflict, and then they say, you know, they ride off on the motorcycle, you know, in the sunset. But what, you know, everyone's gonna have one con, you're gonna have a hundred conflicts. A thousand conflicts. Like if one conflict isn't gonna be it. And so I think we see this model that just isn't true, but we don't think to. Then learn a true model of a relationship and think the other part is just the relationship skills. Like we don't think about building those skills. Our, our parents didn't necessarily build or prioritize building them. You know, you don't learn them in school. And so then you don't have any, you know, you only have the model of your parents and movies mm-hmm. And TV shows. And so then you're like, what? This is relationships. What the heck? This is not what I signed up for.

Quincy 30:08

And then after your first relationship with your, your mom, right? Mm-hmm. After you're born or your dad, after you're born, your next relationship was with your siblings and you fought and you fought for attention, and you beat each other up and you stole each other's toys, and you ate each other's food off their plate when they weren't looking. Like that's how you're like, sort of conditioned, right? Right. To be part of a family. But then you meet this other family person that becomes part of your family. Mm-hmm. You want to become part of their family and you're like, oh, I can't like steal food off their plate and beat 'em up and. Steal their

Lorri 30:37

right.

Quincy 30:38

You know, look at their phone or whatever. Right.

Lorri 30:40

And I can't expect them to be, you know, a mom or a dad because that's, that's weird and not appropriate, you know what I mean? I mean, but like, that's not, their job is to take care of you that way. Like you want them to be loving and supportive and kind of go with you on the journey, but they're not there to parent you. Mm. You know, and so I think we just, we don't stop and take the time to develop the skills to have a kind of an equal kind of fair, equitable partnership that both can maintain passion and excitement, but also have stability, you know, and a sense of security and companionship.

Quincy 31:11

When you talked about the mom or the dad thing, how they say women marry their dads.

Lorri 31:15

Yeah.

Quincy 31:15

Yeah. So what do you think happens in lesbian relationship? I

Lorri 31:19

think it could be both. I think sometimes you could find a woman that resembles your dad or mom mean it could be either one. You know, often we say that whatever relationship you're in, you're working something out, right? Either you are trying to, you know, make right what happened in your childhood, you know, you're trying to kind of heal something or, or course correct what you didn't get in your relationship, or you go with the familiar mm-hmm. Right. So this is what, you know, and this, and sometimes it's like, you know, where you find out, oh, I'm, I'm with AOL an alcoholic, I'm with a, you know, somebody who is avoided. I'm with somebody who screams and yells just like my mom or dad did because like, oh, I know this one. And there's something within us that think, oh, this is familiar. Mm-hmm. And so because of that, it's almost easier for me to navigate. As opposed to, I'm gonna make sure I find somebody who treats me the way I deserve to be treated.

Quincy 32:06

Mm-hmm.

Lorri 32:06

That might be different than what you had as a kid. Yeah. But if it's gonna be harder for you, 'cause you don't know that model, you don't know how to navigate that. How to ask for what you need. 'cause all you did was. Stay quiet to avoid getting hit.

Quincy 32:16

Mm-hmm.

Lorri 32:17

For example, so how do you then learn to disrupt that pattern? Right. And do it differently unless you, you know, get a therapist, get a coach, like intentionally grow into that, like you said, the woman that I wanna be in a relationship and the relationship that I want for me as the woman that I am today.

Quincy 32:34

So do you have them, like, what is your methodology when they come to you? Is everyone writing like lists or dreams or how does it work so that you know exactly each what each partner can hear the other one wants? Right?

Lorri 32:47

Yeah. It depends on what they need. So I'll often start with the question. So if we say it's a couple, I'll say, what's the biggest challenge your relationship is facing? What one? And I want them to tell me separately. So write me separate emails or, you know. What one change would make the biggest difference in your relationship if made today, the biggest positive difference and, you know, what would you like to get out of these sessions? Like what, what do you hope will happen? One might say we'll be more patient with each other. One might say, my needs will be met. So then we start a session. So tell me about you two. You know, tell me your origin story, what brought you here today? And then sometimes it goes right into that. Or I'll say, so I heard, you know, you both want to be a little more patient and have your needs met, so tell me why that's not happening for you. Like, you know, help me understand that and then we'll start kind of working this situation. And what I try to do is help be kind of a mirror back to help them see their own behavior, because we often wanna put it on our partners. Or kind of help them recognize, you know, some of the deep needs of what their partner is saying. Because when you tease it out, you find out both people are just saying, I love you and I want to be seen by you. I love you and I want more time with you. So one might be saying it with, I'm avoiding the fight because I love you and I don't wanna fight the other one's saying, I nag, nag, nag because I love you and I want more of you. So both people are saying the same thing, they're just expressing it differently. So can we help, you know, get underneath to that message, which is, I actually love you and I just, I wanna be seen and I wanna see you, but we've got all this kind of garbage and noise happening on top.

Quincy 34:20

Uh, I, I feel that same way when you're asking the kids, right? Are you hungry? Are you tired? Right. Do you need to run around the backyard for a while? Right. That's right. And ask your partner the same thing. Like I say that what do you need? Do you wanna go for a walk by yourself? You should probably go for a walk by yourself. Yeah. Go for a swim. You know, did you eat today? Right. Because it is so important mm-hmm. That we get all of those needs met. I mean, you are born needing those things. Yeah. You're gonna die needing those things, right?

Lorri 34:45

Yeah, absolutely.

Quincy 34:45

So you have to keep conditioning yourself that your partner is just, as you know, what do they call it? Failing person in this world. Yeah.

Lorri 34:55

Fallible.

Quincy 34:56

Yeah. Fallible person.

Lorri 34:57

Yeah.

Quincy 34:57

That you are, you know, yeah. When, and you start to fall apart. And you fall apart, some people fall apart super quickly. Yeah. And other people have a lot more resilience.

Lorri 35:05

Yeah. Yeah. And one thing, my part I noticed too is that often, and I think we both would do this, but I'll say like, I did this right, is like put my bad day on her. Mm-hmm. Right? So I could have a bad day or a stressed out day and instead of coming home and being loving, you know, and actually like saying like, oh thank God I'm here with you. I'd be crabby and irritated and quick and just 'cause I'm, you know, I was fried and probably hungry, you know? Mm-hmm. And so, and probably maybe irritated I didn't work out, whatever. But, so instead, when we are in those stress points or overwhelm instead of, you know, shifting and like using our partners a source of connection and support, we take our anger and throw it on them. We take our bad mood and put them on them. 'cause they're the ones that are there. And I think it's being aware of that to disrupt it, to say, oh, you know what, I'm just hungry. I'm tired, so let me take a walk by myself or let me say to myself. She doesn't deserve my bad mood. You know, she actually deserves, and I deserve for her, she can be loving to me and help me shift my bad mood. Mm-hmm. But we have to be aware of that, you know, start being aware of those patterns

Quincy 36:05

All the time. Right.

Lorri 36:05

Yeah, for sure.

Quincy 36:06

When you're raising your kids and with sports and relationships and things like that, you know, based on their ages, they probably haven't had too many serious relationships at this point, but how are they looking at you with your current relationship and the relationship with their mom? How are you teaching them and training them to see a relationship that is healthy? Mm-hmm. Strong, you know, has separate space, separate time, and things like that. Mm-hmm.

Lorri 36:32

I think we, we really try to model, so one thing I try to model and I try to talk to them about it. So I think I'll try to say, you know, like. Sometimes like we get upset with each other or just like this happened for us, you know? So I'll use an example and say, this happened and this is how we're working through it, or Yeah, we got upset with each other because of this, you know? And so I think being willing to talk to our kids. I know, you know, and I think my parents might agree, but they, I don't ever remember being talked to about relationship or their marriage at all. Mm-hmm. You know, and they're still married. I mean, they think what, maybe 54 years, maybe more, 56 years. I mean, you know,

Quincy 37:08

amazing.

Lorri 37:08

So they're, they've been married for a very long time. But I don't remember them talking about the nuance of how hard it is until we were way later with adults. And I explicitly remember being with my brother-in-law. And I was probably maybe going through my divorce and maybe, but my, my one sister, my brother-in-law, and me and my dad, and we were all like, relationships are hard. He was like, yep, relationships are hard. You know? And it's like,

Quincy 37:28

that's always true.

Lorri 37:29

You should have told us. You know, you know what I mean? Like, but we don't necessarily wanna have those conversations with our kids. One, because it's awkward, you know? We don't even often have 'em with our best friends. It's, it's vulnerable.

Quincy 37:39

Right.

Lorri 37:39

If our parents didn't have 'em with us, we need to again, do, we're doing something different by kind of sharing with our kids about the reality of relationships. And it has to show that we're perfect and we have to then maybe share that our feelings were hurt. Like Yeah. Or that we hurt feelings. Mm-hmm. You know, when I did this really hurt her feelings. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna tell my kids that and own it. And then say like, yeah, my feelings were really hurt and it might seem silly. They're like, mom, why are you, why that's not a big deal. Like, it actually, it is to me. Mm-hmm. You know, and it's okay, so I'm working on it, you know? Right. So they then get permission to know you can have your feelings hurt by something that might seem silly. Here's what you gotta do in that moment. If you hurt somebody, you know, you hurt your partner. Here's what you gotta do in that moment, you know, and help them get a reality that it's not always gonna be passion and excitement. And if you want that stability, there's kind of this, you know, back and forth that you have to navigate.

Quincy 38:28

So when you talk about the blended families, right, because a lot of lesbians, especially ones that are coming out now after, you know, being 40 or even in their fifties and so forth, they're, they have kids. How are we blending families at later stages in life instead of, you know, with like toddlers and or having new babies together?

Lorri 38:50

I think that's a great question and I think every kinda couple needs to figure out what the kids need and what the couple needs and what's best for the kids at the particular age. And I think that's kind of first and foremost, right? Which is thinking like, what do my kids need in terms of their thriving? And also though, like, I don't think we just give, I don't wanna live, you know, with them. So that can be a gay or straight couple. Mm-hmm. Um. It's saying like, let me again, have the conversation with the kids to say, you know, I have a new partner, this is it. They have a child. And, and depending on the age, I think you just need to attempt to allow your kids to have their experience. So if they're old enough to share, this is hard for me because, or I don't want to share you with somebody. Mm-hmm. And hear that need and there's like, you know, we're gonna make sure that we have one-on-one time together. We're gonna have our time, just us. Because that's really important to me. Mm-hmm. And your bo mine and your bond as a, as a mother, son, mother, daughter, is like one of the most important bonds to have. And so then you prioritize that, but then also let her know like, look, mom also deserves love and romance and companionship. So that's what I get in her. And so I'm gonna also spend time with her. So they know that they get to do that in their life too. So I think there's both in honoring them and, and making sure they feel loved and allow them, you know, don't minimize or, you know, you shouldn't be upset about that. Like, let 'em, they'll feel what they feel.

Quincy 40:05

Right.

Lorri 40:06

But also we can have boundaries around how they act and, you know, they can get the support and love that they need and want, but we also can tell them that we wanna get the support and love that we need and want. Mm-hmm. And then I think it's important for us to be honest and check in with ourselves. How are we doing? You know, how are we doing with giving time to our partner instead of just our kids? How are we doing, giving time to our kids? Not just our partner and our friends, you know? Mm-hmm. And just staying honest and open with ourselves about that.

Quincy 40:29

I completely agree with you. Especially because in the newer part of the relationship, those early, early days where mm-hmm. You want to be with that partner all the time. All the time. Just like a new best friend, just like, you know, a new hobby that started like you want to, or a new sport you took up. Like you wanted to be outside shooting baskets all the time. Yes.

Lorri 40:48

Yeah.

Quincy 40:49

And so you get with this partner, and that's all you can think about, all you want, and you kind of put the kids a little bit to the side and then suddenly everything is like, oh, wait a minute. I forgot I have these kids. And reprioritizing everything around. We have to be adults here. And while this is amazing, so exciting, I have to put you here for a while so I can be there.

Lorri 41:12

And I think it comes down to, you know. Being able to be, when you're self-aware, when you take the time to reflect, when you're intentional, when you're looking at your life again. Like same thing with work. If you realize, wow, I've been lost in work for six weeks and I haven't seen one activity that my kid's been doing. Mm-hmm. You may wanna look at that. You know, and I don't love the idea of balance 'cause I, I don't think balance is, you know, the goal. But I think how do we blend? Yeah. Work life, you know, family life, mom life, professional life, friends. How do we blend our partners with our family? You know, literally it's a blended family, but how do we like blend the roles? You know, and it's, I think it's just everybody getting a little bit more. Yeah. I mean, intentional is the best word. And aware. Yeah. You know, don't just go on autopilot. Stay present, stay focused. You know, and kind of on what do I need? Who am I? Who's in my life? What am I doing? Am I doing okay here? How did this week go? Well, would I do differently? You know, there's also a lot of journal. I have my clients do a lot of journaling. To be, you know, to stay kinda attentive to their own thoughts and feelings.

Quincy 42:16

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I totally agree. I have not a journal, but I use notes on my phone.

Lorri 42:21

Yeah. I love

Quincy 42:21

it. That I've had for years.

Lorri 42:22

Yeah.

Quincy 42:22

And I'll go back and read through them and go, wow, I was really like freaking out right then. Mm-hmm. Or wow, I really held it together. But when I think about it, I was like, was I really holding it together? But when you read about it, right? Yeah. You see that you were, you weren't. But I was gonna go back to when you were talking about the balance that even with my clients, 'cause during the, my like daytime job is like a nighttime job because we coach people about chaos in their family. Nice. And that there isn't balance. Right. Because balance is sort of, when you think about it, you automatically think like a right and a left, a heavy side and a light side. Mm-hmm. That's two sides. No one has a two sided life. Right. Right. It's so multidimensional, right. Like you said, and layered and complex and things like that. And that the chaos. Sometimes is just remedied by a good night's sleep. Right. Or a family meeting because you, we want to know what everyone wants, right? Yeah. And that's where I sit down with my clients and I say, the first thing I want you to do is have a family meeting. And this is what you're gonna do. You're gonna ask everyone that can speak in your family. I don't care how young they're, if they can say words, everyone needs to tell each other what they need. Because if, you know, Bobby says to Bonnie, oh, well I wanna spend all day Saturday with mommy and I wanna spend Saturday with mom. The other one says, I wanna spend Sunday with mom then that's great. Right? Then each kid gets a day with one parent and what have you. But if everyone only wants to spend time with mommy and not with mom. Mommy has to like figure out how we're gonna do this. Right? Okay. I'm glad everyone wants to spend time with me this weekend, but guess what? I have yoga

Lorri 43:54

right

Quincy 43:55

at nine,

Lorri 43:55

right?

Quincy 43:56

And then I have a meeting at six, I'm sorry it happens to be a Saturday, but I have a meeting at six and everyone knows every week how much time they're gonna get, right? Mm-hmm. From each other.

Lorri 44:04

Yeah. And I think it's, you know, both meeting each other's needs and also helping our kids realize that there are some parts, like we don't always get a hundred percent of our needs met. Right? I mean, I'd, you know, before I had kids when I was coaching basketball, we would sometimes like lift before practice, you know, the coaches would lift and then maybe we'd jump in and like do a little extra stretching with the athletes if we felt like it. And then afterwards, I'd, I had no kids, I'd go to the gym for another, you know, two hours and I'd do yoga at night. I mean, I was like doing some sort of exercise for 'em five hours a day and then all of a sudden you have kids. It's like, I, I still love to do that. Even today, I still wish I could do that. I'm lucky if I get on sometimes like five minutes of just run with the dogs real quick if it's a busy day. So part of it, it's like learning. What do I really need? What do I want? And how can I kind of express and get, you know, my needs met from the people that I wanna be with, but also understand that, you know, other people have needs too, and I've gotta situate myself within this family unit. And that might mean that I don't get everything I want all the time, but can I learn to get enough of what I want and be grateful for what I have, right? Mm-hmm. This practice of gratitude, I think is also really important.

Quincy 45:12

And also about in lesbian relationships that the majority of my friends don't have kids and are never gonna have kids. Right. And I have kids. Yeah. So meeting those people in those relationships that come with kids to the no kid person.

Lorri 45:25

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, again, it's, I think it's. Sometimes you find if you, you know, the moms have friends with other moms because you have a shared experience and you understand. But one of my best friends doesn't have kids, but she's got, you know, a niece and nephew and she's, you know, this amazing aunt. So she and she's under, had been with all of our kids. There's, there's three of us, like, since they were all born. And so she understands, you know, and loves the kids a lot and is excited about hearing about all their activities. And so I think it's just, you know, knowing if you have kids and you still wanna nurture that friendship. Okay, so we might need to miss a game to go and do our girls' weekend. Right? But then also she may need to understand if you don't have kids, that we can't make it this weekend because of the kids' thing. So it comes down to like, again, communication, understanding each other. What do we want? You know, we really wanna spend time together. Like at the core of it is we want a weekend together, right? We want to be the, okay, so then how do we make that happen? Right. Without judging each other or being upset with each other,

Quincy 46:22

what's the craziest story you've ever heard?

Lorri 46:26

Oh my gosh. Like with relationship to what? I don't even know.

Quincy 46:29

Well, what's the show on? Is it Showtime, the doctor, what's her name? And, and the people come on and they, they talk about you know, the relationships and things like that. But some person has like this really like crazy thing. Like I had a a client and they were talking about they work in the like mental health field that one of the clients had this affinity for their pets and it was very awkward and odd and they started dating and it just became sort of inappropriate. Interesting. But they didn't sort of know how to deal with it. Interesting. So what kinds of like weird things have you heard that you're sort of not even sure what to say anymore?

Lorri 47:13

I don't, I mean, I dunno that I have an answer for that. I think first because I think I've heard a lot of different kinds of stories, you know, different experiences of, and I don't, I dunno that I would say anything is weird, you know what I mean? Because if people have had trauma, if they've had kinda these unique family situations, I think what's more interesting to me is to, to try to learn and understand how did those situations that maybe are very different than mine kinda make this person who they are in this moment. So I think, you know, I don't know that I would ever say like, oh my God, that was so weird. I've heard, you know, like sad stories where people have had just an unfathomable like series of, of deaths and bad, like tragic things happening where it's like, oh my gosh. Like how, you know, how does it happen to one person within the span of a month? Like, you know, and it's just horribly sad. Mm-hmm. And so then it's how do we kind of help and are you getting, you know, grief counseling and those kinds of things. But I don't think there's anything like off the wall weird, you know what I mean? I don't think I can, I don't think so. I mean, I, you know, nor not that I would even want to share. Right. Because. It's all confidential.

Quincy 48:20

Just like the story I just shared. It was a totally separate thing. Mm-hmm. And I just put it all together so that not even the person I was talking about would know what I was talking.

Lorri 48:27

Yeah, yeah. But I don't know. I mean, I don't, I don't think so. Yeah.

Quincy 48:31

It's so funny because I've had like different people on the show that when I'm trying to ask them during the show Yeah. They never answer it. But as soon as we turn off the recording, gosh, they're like, oh my God. Oh my gosh, I

Lorri 48:40

remember this. Yeah. That's so

Quincy 48:42

funny. I'm like, ah, why did I push stop? Because this is the perfect thing I wanted to hear. Yeah. Yeah. Some crazy, crazy things. And I'm just like, oh, wow. And then I never tell anybody about it or anything. Yeah. But yeah, I'm like, it's no, it's just out in the air. So really, what does it actually mean if I say something?

Lorri 48:59

Right.

Quincy 48:59

So you use the word hold a lot. Mm-hmm. What does it actually mean to hold even. A young person or a person, a new relationship, and not manage them and not control them, but like truly hold them.

Lorri 49:11

Mm-hmm. So I like the idea of hold kind of even in like an energetic way, like a holding environment. Mm. I mean, you know, the mother provides a holding environment for her child to kind of grow up and feel safe. I mean, and it is a literal hold, but then there's also this idea of feeling held, which means you feel supported, you feel okay, you know, if you feel psychologically safe, you feel held. So I think there's this way and, and I would say there's another part of holding steady. So when conflict is happening, do you lose yourself? Do you become completely emotionally dysregulated? Do you start to panic? Do you start to have a fit? Do you lose yourself in anger? And so I think this idea of holding is really important because it's both what we can do for ourselves. Meaning stay composed, stay grounded, kind of hold our emotions in a, in a way that is regulated and not kind of completely lose it. But then also providing that holding environment for the people that we love, which means that, you know, that I like, I've got you, you know, and it's more energetic than me actually holding you. Mm-hmm. But that you feel like in the space with me, it's safe. You're okay. You know, you can, you can trust me with something painful. You know, I'm gonna, you know, listen to your shares and, and if they're tender and fragile, I'm gonna gonna be, be gentle with them, you know? And, and so that's that holding piece that I think is really important. And we don't, it's a skill we don't often think about.

Quincy 50:32

Oh, completely. Because I feel like a lot of times, and this goes back to the sort of not getting my needs met and feeling, you know, vulnerable mm-hmm. Is that when I would share things with people, especially in relationships and with my parents they would bring it back to literally try to punish you with it. Yeah. And that punishment. Then they step into like this parent mode and I'm like, I'm not your child. Right? You are. I'm your partner. Don't punish me like I'm your child. And it's so, it's like a cycle, right? Right. Because then you're like trying to please mommy, who's now your partner and you're trying to like make her feel better. Right. And, you know, all these sorts of things and it just becomes so yucky feeling. Yeah.

Lorri 51:12

Well, and the word hold, you know, I think is like, don't hold this against me.

Quincy 51:16

Yes.

Lorri 51:16

Right. So it's like, I wanna share something with you and I wanna admit something, you know, and you might say, I told you so, or you're gonna think, but like, don't hold this against me in a week and come back and throw it what I'm sharing with you. Trying to be vulnerable and open and honest in my face. Like that just doesn't feel good. And then immediately then if, if that happens, you don't feel safe. Yes. You don't feel held. Because this one thing gets kind of held onto, and then I'm gonna hold it and use it like as a weapon. Yeah. Against you later. And so it's like that part too. It's like we want, again, if you're gonna tell me something tender and honest and vulnerable. I wanna just hold, like hold it and, and then use it to just support you, not like use it to then be ready to throw it back against you. Right. You know, and again, that's this piece of how do we hold each other and hold the things that we share with each other, our needs, our wants, our fears, our kind of, you know, confessions of, of the things that we've done or that we thought.

Quincy 52:09

'Cause it becomes sort of like their arsenal, right?

Lorri 52:12

Yeah.

Quincy 52:13

And you're sitting there and they're like literally throwing all these things at you and I mean, when you get to that healed part, you're just sitting there and you just look at them and you're like, Doesn't work. You can't penetrate this. I did those things, or I said those things, or I didn't do those things, or I didn't say those things, but why are you trying to hurt me?

Lorri 52:29

Exactly.

Quincy 52:30

It's um, like they were literally, what can I do to hurt you? Yeah.

Lorri 52:35

I mean that just, I mean, that's not a healthy dynamic. And, and even in terms of like the back and forth, right? Like, so me versus you, or I've got my weapons, you know that maybe you ga I'm holding some of these and I'm a weaponize it right back at you. And so one of the kind physical things that I'll do is I'll tell people like turn and sit side by side. Right? Where then you cannot throw, you know, you know, if you're throwing things, you're literally out, away from the two of you and that whatever problem it's in front of both of you, not in between the two of you. Right? So if there's this thing between us, it's a me versus you.

Quincy 53:10

Where

Lorri 53:11

if we're side by side, all of a sudden it's a we problem. Not a you versus me problem. And so instead, if I do have a weapon, it's like, okay, well there's nobody there to use it on. Instead there's this person side by side. And so I would hopefully think, okay, I don't want to use this weapon. I don't, I'm not here to. Fight in terms of like weapon and hurting. I'm here, like conflict is different. Mm-hmm. I'm here to understand, I'm here to work through things, but if somebody is kinda intentionally hurting you over and over again, I, I think you need to ask yourself like, why am I kinda staying in this dynamic?

Quincy 53:46

Right. Yeah. I, I'm glad I'm not in that relationship anymore because it literally was so defeating.

Lorri 53:52

Yeah.

Quincy 53:53

You know, it was like, God, I told you that like two years ago. Right. And now you're like bringing that apart on me. But when you talk about the side by side thing, I, for years have done the. Let's go on a walk and talk. Yeah,

Lorri 54:06

exactly.

Quincy 54:06

I do it with my daughter. I did it with my ex-husband. Mm-hmm. I do it with people, just friends. Let's go on a walk. Yeah. Like, they'll call me or they'll text me and say, oh, I'm having problems. Let's go on a walk.

Lorri 54:15

Yeah.

Quincy 54:15

That is just my way of you're next to me. I can hear you, but you are comfortable to tell me things that you might not other otherwise say. Just like, you know, in the backseat of the car, the kids will say, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But as soon as you look at them, they're like silent. Right? Yes. That you use that time, you get exercise, you get grounded with the ground. Right. Your feet are on the ground, one foot in front of the other. This you're breathing bigger instead of that kind of

Lorri 54:40

Right.

Quincy 54:41

You know, where you can't even take a full breath because whatever's bothering you is bothering you.

Lorri 54:45

Yep.

Quincy 54:45

Is so impactful.

Lorri 54:47

Yeah. And the moving, I mean, I think. It's always been this kind of the body and the mind. The body and the gut. But we know like our body can help us regulate. You know, when you, when we are dysregulated, the body doesn't know the difference between being like, you're chased by a tiger or on the train tracks with a train coming right at us or being told you were fired. Or I'm breaking up with you, I'm divorcing you. I mean Right. The fear, the threat. It's the, the shows up the same in the body, and so we can help regulate ourselves and bring ourselves to a state of calm just by moving the body, breathing the fresh air. So not just the side by side, I think. But it's such a beautiful thing because you're helping, you're just in a state of where that body is moving and gets a chance to be regulated. Now both people start sprinting, you know what I mean? Then you realize like. We need to slow down and take a breath. But it's such a great way to bring the body into that experience.

Quincy 55:38

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's why I like hiking so much. Yeah, me

Lorri 55:41

too. And

Quincy 55:41

just after nine 11, we hiked Mount Whitney, one of my best friends and a group of us.

Lorri 55:46

Awesome.

Quincy 55:47

And it was so fantastic. It was, it literally fantastic. It, it was either the weekend after nine 11 or the weekend just after that. It was very, very, very new. And it was such a great experience because we were all outside. When you hike Mount Whitney, if anyone on this podcast has tried anything at that 14,000 feet elevation, it takes every cell in your body to put one foot in front of the other. But before that, I mean, you're still at a very high altitude when you start at base camp. Right. It's still pretty high. You're, you know, kind of breathing deeper and heavier and things like that. But you ha you're, everything's so intentional, right? Yeah. You have to remember to take a drink of water, right? You have to remember to take a, you know, a pull off of your, your electrolyte

Lorri 56:31

Yeah.

Quincy 56:31

You know, apple sauce. Like whatever it is that you have that you're like sucking on. And, but you get to talk to so many people that are so intentional out there with so much base in their head. Yeah. But so much intention in the body to make, make the summit. Make it to the summit. Right.

Lorri 56:48

So, cool.

Quincy 56:48

And I didn't make it to the summit because as I started going up the switchbacks, I was probably two thirds. To half the way up the switchback. So I was very, very close, but I started to get extremely dizzy. And I was like, no, I'm not pushing it. Yeah. Like there's no reason

Lorri 57:05

No. Right.

Quincy 57:05

Thank gosh I didn't. 'cause one of the other people in our group did push it and when she got up there like crapping herself, she was delirious. My god. She fainted. Like all of these things. So I said, altitude sickness is not worth me getting to summit. So I ended up walking down with somebody else, but the walk down side by side with somebody. 'cause it takes about half the time to walk up, which is, should be, I don't know, sometime between seven to nine-ish hours is supposed to a good ascent time. Yeah. And down, I mean, you're killing, you're kill your knees, kill, everything hurts. You have your poles, you're walking down. But you get to have these really incredible conversations. Yeah. 'cause people's brains have been with this fresh air and this pressure and this fight for survival. Yeah. And now you're going down the hill and you know, it's at the bottom. Shower food. Oh my gosh. The fire. Yeah. Like you can't wait to take off your boots. Yeah. Like all of these things. And it's just such an incredible relational experience to somebody.

Lorri 57:59

Totally. Right. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's so cool that you, I haven't done that yet. We, but one of the, my favorite kind of memories of camping, I backpacked with my mom, my daughter, myself. So my, you know, and my mom's amazing. I think she was like, it might have been 70. I mean, so how cute. And she, you know, up to Cottonwood Lakes, which is sort of near there. Mm-hmm. And I think the highest we got was maybe 12, like maybe 11,500. But my daughter and my best friend and her daughter. And it was just such a cool experience being out there. And she got a little altitude sickness too. And then we had to, you know, drink the water, maybe take some ibuprofen to kind of calm the headaches and stuff. But just being out in that like air. And we sat down and we gathered rocks and brought cars and like they were our poker chip, you know, money. And it was just so fun. And you're away from everything else, but you just had to connect and like such, this purest way of everybody doing something physical and helping each other through it. I mean, it's just, it's so we don't do enough of that.

Quincy 58:53

Right.

Lorri 58:53

And I don't mean just backpacking with that place where we show up for each other. There's no devices. We totally connect on this shared experience. You know, you have nothing to do but look at each other. Mm-hmm. And just, you know, talk or side by side. Yeah. Talk and walk. Be in the body. Be in the heart space. Those are the things I think we need more of in this device driven culture.

Quincy 59:12

Coming around that device thing, how are the, how are relationships being worked out with devices being so involved? Like, what are, how much screen time are you telling people? Especially when so many of our businesses run off of our phones. Yeah. Or laptops.

Lorri 59:29

I don't usually like give a rule for screen time for, you know, adults. But I, I will, if I notice that people are starting to compare, you know, to other relationships that they see on social media or it's like, you know, you don't know the truth behind that post. You don't know the truth behind that reel. I mean, that's, you know, what we put out. Hopefully we're being authentic and honest, but there's a lot of curated stuff and so we just can't compare our relationship to what others are. And I was, so I would, I would offer that. And then I would think too, it's just the matter of. In terms of connecting with each other, we've gotta put the phones down and talk to each other. And that's one of the best things I think we can do, and I'm not always good at it with our kids, is like, put it down, put the device down. Like the kids now, they don't know how to engage without the phone. They don't go to the bathroom without their phone. It's like they can't exist without content, content. The brain be bored. Mm-hmm. Right. We need to be bored. Even as a couples, you know, with our friends as adults, it's like, can we just be with each other? And not pick up our phones, not talk about a reel and say that that's what we're connecting around. But just connect on who you are, who I am being outside playing a game. I mean whatever. Listening to music, like something that is just us as opposed to always filtered through. This like, you know, content information. Mm-hmm. You know, it's, it's, I think it's going to, we're gonna find it's, it's changing the brain. Mm-hmm. I mean, so maybe not our brains 'cause we came, kind of came at the tail end. Mm-hmm. But I think for sure it's changing the way our kids make sense of information and, and process and, and have expectations and relate or don't. You know?

Quincy 1:01:05

So to wrap up, because we're almost done.

Lorri 1:01:07

Yeah.

Quincy 1:01:08

Let's talk about your Instagram presence and how you're helping so many people because you can't believe the number of people I said that we were interviewing together and they're like, oh my God, I know Dr. Laurie. I know. Oh. And I was like, oh my gosh. All of these people know who are, and it was so cool. That's cool hear. He was really happy. Yeah. 'cause on Instagram it's hard to know exactly how far everyone is. Right? Yeah. 'cause you don't have time to go in and look at everybody that's following you or comments or whatever. See where they're from and talk to them. But a podcast, you can see where people, the cities, they're not, we're in like 350 cities.

Lorri 1:01:40

Cool. That's amazing.

Quincy 1:01:41

Which is pretty amazing.

Lorri 1:01:41

Yeah. Congrats. That's

Quincy 1:01:42

amazing. Some, there's only one listener in that city, but hey, hey, one listener in that city that's, I'm in that city. But how have you structured your practice with Instagram? 'cause I don't have TikTok, so I have no idea.

Lorri 1:01:53

You know, I, I, it's been amazing, you know, so I'd say it's been an amazing thing. I do try when I can to get on and respond to comments. It's hard for me to respond to dms personally. But I try to respond to those comments and kind of just for conversation. Mm-hmm. And one of the things I noticed is that I was kind of fed up, I don't remember what it was, it was maybe when, when gen, you know, L word, generation Q kind of ended. I didn't love that. Mm-hmm. You know, that rendition, I thought it was like, could have been so much better. But I just was like, ah, we get, everything is straight. You know, I was kinda one of my petulant, like, you know, we need more lesbian content and I. Then you need to create it, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, then stop kind of complaining about it. It's like, I think Tony Morrison said, you know, if the book that you wanna read doesn't exist, then write it. Write

Quincy 1:02:37

it.

Lorri 1:02:37

You know? And I've been thinking about that too, like, then I need to write it, you know? And so I thought I did one post specific to lesbian relationships because I had a question, kind of a random question, thought, you know what? I'm gonna post about this. Let's see what happens. And it really took off. And I think to be truthful, I had to realize, like, I think I was a a little afraid, right? Like, if I put myself out there kind of with lesbian content so much, is it, am I gonna be judged? Is, you know, is it not gonna take? And, and it was just the opposite. And it kind of just reminded me, like being authentic, being true. Don't be afraid to kind of lean into sort of what you're passionate about and our own sense of who we are. And, and my lesbian identity is a huge sense of who I am. And so I think just feeling like, yeah, we don't get our relationships reflected, you know, kind of in the nuanced ways. And a lot of people say. This could be the same for straight couples. This is for all couples and Yeah. Perhaps, I mean, all couples should think about foundations. Mm-hmm. All couples shouldn't rush in, move in together right away. And I would push back and say, okay, but you know what? All couples, you know, the heterosexual couples have reflections and representation all over. We don't. Mm-hmm. Um, and so it really made me think that I, I appreciate the ability and I'm honored. Mm-hmm. You know, kind of at the, kind of, if I can help either young lesbians or new lesbians or a lesbian couple, like kind of exceed themselves in their relationship because for so long I didn't. Mm-hmm. And even now still, like that's why he rivalry was so cool. Mm-hmm. And, you know, not the hunting wives, like we need a real, a real lesbian story. It's hard not to see yourself reflected in the world. Right. You know, it doesn't feel good. It sucks actually. Right? So if I can just maybe help people feel seen a little bit, you know, then the, you know, the snarky comments that I get from whatever, the religious writer, like whatever, right? I can look beyond because you know what, if it's doing some people good, and if it's helping, and even if it's helping non-gay people, like straight people understand our relationships or understand their sister or their friend, then you know what? Great. Right? I think that's great,

Quincy 1:04:34

right? 100%. I feel like the more out I can be and tell people that I'm gay and tell people that I'm a lesbian and show people a loving, you know, sane. Productive volunteer. You know, all of these things that people think oh, differently about lesbians that they didn't before. Because you're right, they didn't know them. We don't have our own Barbie. And even though the Barbie movie tried to have you know, gay Barbie, but she was wacko.

Lorri 1:05:00

Right?

Quincy 1:05:01

Right. Her legs were crazy and she had the crazy eye and all those sorts of things. But

Lorri 1:05:06

that's funny. It

Quincy 1:05:07

was funny. But

Lorri 1:05:07

yeah, no, you're right. There

Quincy 1:05:08

was gay kin, but there wasn't Lesbian Barbie.

Lorri 1:05:10

Right.

Quincy 1:05:10

If you don't grow up seeing yourself.

Lorri 1:05:12

Yeah, that's right.

Quincy 1:05:13

You're right. You have to write your own book. You have to make your own movie. And that's why I chose to do this podcast too. It's like people, I wanted people from my, my generation to hear what I'm thinking about and asking younger gay people and trans people and non-binary people. Yeah. What this is like, because when we grew up it was gay,

Lorri 1:05:33

right? That's

Quincy 1:05:33

right. No one said lesbian. Yeah. It was gay.

Lorri 1:05:35

Right.

Quincy 1:05:36

Okay. I can call myself gay. I have no problem doing that. Yeah. But gay guys don't call themselves lesbians. I

Lorri 1:05:41

know. It's

Quincy 1:05:41

true.

Lorri 1:05:41

You

Quincy 1:05:42

know, so,

Lorri 1:05:42

you know, it's like the male is normative. Mm-hmm. And it's funny, not funny, but it's like noticing all the ways that that shows up. Mm-hmm. You know, and you're right. I mean, I kind of do it too, you know? Yeah. But it's just, you know, it's a very true, and it's something to, to look at.

Quincy 1:05:55

Yeah.

Lorri 1:05:55

And it's true about the terms, you know, I always thought like non-binary, gender fluid, non-conforming, like when those terms started to become more popular or more mainstream in the public, it was like, oh. Mm-hmm. So that's what it is. Mm-hmm. Like that's kind what I feel like, you know, it's a totally different, different. Podcast maybe, but you know, I totally dress in men's clothing. Mm-hmm. Shop in the men's section. Mm-hmm. But there never was like a, a word to explain. It just was this feeling of being not quite right. Right. You know, not quite Right. As a woman. Yeah. And even as a mother, because I didn't look like the other mothers, you know? But I think now having the language, having representation, being willing to say like, this is my experience. Someone else probably has that experience. And I think the more we can share our stories mm-hmm. Like what you're doing here, which is so beautiful and amazing. Thank you. The better it's gonna be for all of us.

Quincy 1:06:44

Yeah. I, I 100% agree for yours. Like platform for everything that you're doing for lesbians, for people in general. Like you said, if straight people can understand us better, if straight people can understand, especially husbands understand their wives more through a lesbian lens.

Lorri 1:07:00

Sure.

Quincy 1:07:00

Like you are making everyone's life better. Oh, thanks. And their kids' lives better. And that's like the most important part, right? Because they're going to inherit all of this craziness or not craziness. And we want them to be whole and seen and held, like you said.

Lorri 1:07:14

Yeah.

Quincy 1:07:14

So I really, really, really appreciate you coming on the show. Yeah, thank you. You. So if you have been with us for both parts, you know, this wasn't just a leadership conversation in part one we talked about what it costs to use your voice as a lesbian in spaces that were never built with us in mind. The tension, the exposure, and the refusal to. And in this episode, we moved into what comes after, how we lead with our kids, our communities, and how we love each other. Without reenacting the power dynamics, we survived because, let's be honest, lesbian relationships don't escape power just because they're queer. We still have ego, we still compete, we still struggle with respect and repair. This is the work Lori does. She helps coaches build emotionally safe teams. She helps lesbian couples build relationships rooted in mul mutual power, not quiet dominance. She helps us grow up, not just glow up. And this is lesbian leadership, tender, fierce, and self-aware, and it's all ours. So thank you for coming tonight. Thank you. Thank you everyone for listening. And this episode drops on the 25th of February. Take care. Goodnight. Goodnight.