Episode 33: Leading at Scale: Confidence, Change, and Self-Agency — with Michelle Mason

What does it really take to lead at scale — when the decisions are bigger, the stakes are higher, and the pressure is constant?

In this episode of Her BOSS Brain – Stress to Success, I sit down with Michelle Mason, President and CEO of the American Society of Association Executives — the organization that supports over 50,000 association professionals and shapes how leaders lead across industries.

As the first woman CEO of ASAE, Michelle has led through complexity, uncertainty, and transformation — not by focusing on optics, but by focusing on the work and the inner clarity required to carry it.

This is a deep dive into the mindset and inner leadership required to sustain success at the highest level:

• How confidence becomes a tool for effectiveness — not validation
• Why self-agency is critical when expectations are high
• What it takes to stay grounded and decisive through constant change
• How inner leadership shapes the success of transformation efforts
• Why community and mentorship are essential for long-term leadership

If you’re ready to stop second-guessing yourself and start leading with clarity, confidence, and impact — this conversation is for you.

Because leadership at scale isn’t just about strategy.
It’s about who you are — and how you lead from within.

To learn more about ASAE and the work Michelle is leading, visit: https://www.asaecenter.org/
Click here to book the Lead from Within workshops for your teams and leaders or invite Pallavi for a keynote at your next event: www.pallavi-jain.com 
Share your feedback, comments, or any questions you would like to get answered at herbossbrain@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

If you're a high-achieving woman who's exhausted by sex dress, stuck in constant conflict, and tired of being overlooked in the exact rooms where you know you were born to lead, then this podcast is for you. So here's your host, Paula V Jane.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Welcome back to Her Boss Brain, the podcast where we explore what it really takes for leaders to stay grounded, decisive, and effective under pressure. Today's conversation is about leadership at scale and leadership from within. My guest leads the organization that supports and shapes thousands of associations across industries and sectors. But what makes her leadership compelling isn't just the title, it's how she leads through change, complexity, and expectation without losing her center. This is a conversation about self-agency, inner clarity, confidence, community, and what it takes to be the first without letting that define you. So let's get into it. My guest today is Michelle Mason, president and CEO of the American Society of Association Executives, ASAE, the organization that serves and supports associations around the world. Michelle leads this organization that represents a membership of over 50,000 professionals, guiding not just an institution, but an entire ecosystem through transformation and change. She's the first woman to serve as the CEO of ASAE and is widely recognized for her leadership in strategy, innovation, and change management, including navigating complex political and organizational transitions. Michelle has been honored as a Chicago Business Journal woman of influence, CEO of Date Professional Society, CEO of the Year Award, and a smart woman in meetings hall of fame inductee. But beyond the accolades, Michelle is known for leading with clarity, confidence, and a deep commitment to developing others. Michelle, we are so, so excited to have you here. Welcome to Her Boss Brain.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm really thrilled for the conversation we're going to have.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Absolutely. And since I have so many nuggets of wisdom to unpack with you, so if you're okay, should we just dive in?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah, let's dive in. That's what boss women do, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Absolutely. There we go. So let's start with, you know, um, now you lead the association of associations, an organization that shapes how leaders lead across industries, right? And you didn't just modernize ASAE, you helped safeguard the ecosystem of associations during political and structural uncertainty as well. So when leadership includes protecting an entire sector, right, how does that change how you show up?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Yeah, that's a great question. When you are responsible for a sector and all the ripple effects that comes with your decision making, you have to lead with a wide lens. Lead with a lens that where you can take your subjectivity out of it and focus on what's best for the greater good. And sometimes that's hard. We bring our own individual biases and opinions, but leading with clarity of purpose and focus, when you have such a diverse industry, is very important. Another is that I've had to really lean into my listening muscle, being an effective listener, to seek first to understand, to learn what it is that the various data points or messages are telling me, and then form a decision based on it, but also based on fact. I also had to really lead with my values first, but not compromise them, not overreact. And so, with that steady leadership focus, with that clarity of purpose and intent, effective communication, even if it's an area that I might have a disagreement with, I often ask myself, what's in the best interest of the industry that I have the honor to serve? And so that's how I show up. I am a very inclusive leader. I value opinions that are not necessarily based on my professional, my personal views, but those that I can learn from to support the direction forward.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Oh my goodness, so many amazing values and centers and pillars of how what keeps you grounded. And we'll unpack a little bit more on some of these things and maybe ask you for some examples as well, because I think sometimes people only see these as values, as like names and things on the paper, but they don't really realize what it means to truly live them. And your leadership is definitely an example for that. So let's, you know, as we go forward, we'll unpack this a little bit. But let me ask you like when you step back, okay, and you look at the weight of that responsibility, what does leadership actually require of you on a daily basis?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Leadership, you know, again, I said listening, being an active listener, having a very clear focus on the direction and where we're going, it requires me to make sure that we're aligned, but also recognizing not everyone's gonna be in alignment, but it does, it means that we need to still move forward. And that's very important. Operating businesses in uncertain times requires us to uh realize that we're not gonna have all the answers, but we need to still move forward as a business. And that's very important. It also requires me to make sure I take care of my people. It requires me to truly understand what their needs are so they can support the direction that we're going in. There's truly, you know, we've the old adage, there's no IN team. That is so true now more than ever before. I say to my team, together everyone achieves more. But the reality is we still must show up every day to serve this organization. And that's the beauty of working for an association or a nonprofit. We are servant leaders at heart. But yet we are businesses or we are organizations with a business purpose and a focus and making significant contributions to society.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Yeah, that makes sense. So you mentioned a lot of things which are sometimes not in our control, right? So some people may not agree with certain things, but you still gotta move forward. There may be other factors that may come in the, you know, in all of this. So there are all these external forces that can be unpredictable at times, right? And you have to make a decision, you have to move forward. So, how do you lead decisively? Like, what is your inner anchor that helps you stay focused and say, you know what, we may agree to disagree and move on? Like, how do you live that? Because I know with such a different, you know, things that are happening in the world, I'm pretty sure you're at that crossroad many times.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yes, absolutely. You know, I strongly agree, and I would say I have a growing appreciation for the diversity of thought. I have a growing appreciation for different ideologies and how they can inform my decision making. So here at ASAE, I have a core team of leaders that I appreciate their input into the strategic direction of the organization that's set by the board, but ultimately I make the decision. And what they provide me from a team-based approach, different inputs, right? Into for my consideration, I want to understand what my gaps are. What should I be thinking about that I've not thought about? But ultimately, we'll need to make a decision to move forward. So that helps me in terms of one, I take personal responsibility for the decision, but I buy others into the conversation because I am ultimately the person that's accountable. And that has helped significantly, but it also helps me to grow the leaders that are around me in leading this organization, in helping them to feel a part of the decision-making process.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. And you said something very important here, which we sometimes, and I think women does that more than men, is that we want to be liked by everybody, we want to be approachable, we want everybody to agree with us. And sometimes that takes us away from the action or that personal responsibility that sometimes as a leader we have to take when we have taken into account everything that has been presented to us. So there's great power and wisdom in that.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

There's a lot of wisdom in that. I mean, we know the reality is that we're not going to be liked by everyone. That's just life. But what we can do is seek first to understand and let's find that one thing that we can all galvanize behind to move forward. And so when we take that pressure off of us and when we know that we're showing up for a collective purpose, let's focus on that. Let that be our anchor. And we can put the other things aside, that truly builds a strong team.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Yeah, uh, very true. I love that. So I also know that you're the first women CEO of ASAE, but you have been clear that you don't lead with optics, so you lead with the work, which is kind of what you're just saying, also. So, you know, saying that, you're focused on doing the work, not on how you look. Where did that mindset come from?

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, the mindset is really originated from early in my career. I was one that was not quite sure my path. So, how I entered into the association community is through a temporary position. And I realized this is this wonderful sector, this nonprofit, not-for-profit sector, where I could focus on mission-based work, being that servant leader, but also focus on the business component of running or working in an association. So, what that derived from is the fact that I've probably served in almost every position in the association community, and that helped me to develop a true appreciation from temp to manager to director to vice president to managing director to CEO. So I really have a broad lens of what it's required to serve in an organization. And when you are serving in a nonprofit organization or not for profit organization, despite the size, you need to be a humble leader because it's really about the people, it's not about the optics. Everyone wants to be a CEO, or not everyone, but most want to be a CEO, or maybe I should even say some. But there's a lot of weight with that responsibility. And so, in order to be successful, it's really about humility, it's about accountability, it's about leaving with purpose. But for me as well, it's about being a very decisive leader and working collaboratively with our memberships to accomplish a common goal. At the end of the day, when we think about associations, we are talking about a collective group of leaders joined together for a common purpose. And with that, when you say join together, it's not about one of us, it's about all of us. And so that's how that grounds me every day.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

It's just so beautiful. And you said it with such an ease, Michelle. But I know that you probably have moments in your life that define that ease that has come with, you know, going through your life, growing through these motions of different positions, moving, you know, like you said, from a 10 position to now a CEO of an organization. If I may, and if you feel okay, do you want to share something that, like, for example, what did you refuse to carry that wasn't actually yours? Because sometimes we have those moments, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah. Well, you know, I'll share with you this. I used to carry what people some call the imposter syndrome. Yes. I used to carry that. And I used to project that. I would be in the room and I would be silent, or I would feel like, you know, I have something to say, but my voice would not be respected or appreciated. And I used to carry that it was others who allowed me to feel that way. But then I had to own that. That's a personal responsibility and accountability to say, in order for me to be an effective leader, I need to reverse that. I'm not an imposter. I deserve to be at this at the table. And that's why I'm at the table. So, what am I going to do to show up in a different way? That takes practice and it takes time because that's not the way that I was groomed in terms of, you know, into my leadership role. So I had to use my mentors and I had to use the tools and the resources to help me to become a more effective leader. And that helped me to realize, you know what, I was always sufficient. I always had enough, but I had to realize it myself. It takes a community, it takes a village. But once I started to realize my value, my worth, and that I am sufficient, I am an effective leader, then I started showing up with more confidence. I started entering a room with that aura of, oh, who is that? Right? Not just kind of fading into the meeting, but it's a personal responsibility and accountability. And it's using the resources and the tools around you to become an effective leader. And it's not a situation where you believe that you've risen and you we always need to be learners. We always need to perfect ourselves. We always need to see first to do better and to be better. So, you know, it's an ongoing process. I'm on a journey like most, but it's a learning journey which I've embraced.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

That is just so powerful. And for our listeners, I want to mention a few words you say here, which I truly, truly admire and I stand by. And like, you know, these are the things that I have tried to do in my life and has done so much good for me. You mentioned personal responsibility, ownership, being decisive, taking accountability. And, you know, I would say, and I'm sure you would agree to this, that your thoughts really create your reality. What you're telling yourself and what you really believe in, right? And that's kind of what you're saying. So there's just so much power in that, and that's in your control.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Yes, in your control. Yes, you're so right. And I appreciate the way you frame that. Your thoughts create your reality. So, but it also we need to be held accountable for ourselves before we can hold others accountable.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Absolutely. And then I think the second tier that I see of your this powerful position that you have been able to, you know, build in your life is again taking responsibility and do taking an action about it. So your thoughts create that reality of making sure, okay, what do I really want? And I can achieve that. And then it doesn't stop there. You got to take that first step. And sometimes you're not sure, but you still take that first step, right? And that's what's so powerful about what you just shared with all of us. That's really when things started to change because you took responsibility and you took it, took an action about it, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Exactly. You know, in every data point, you know, people use the word failure a lot. I believe that failure just sets me up for success. It helps is a data point to help me to understand what I can learn from this is a data point for me to become more resilient. Sometimes it's is painful at times, but nevertheless, had I not gone through that, learned from it, I would not have advanced. So I try to change the narrative. And in my mind, it's that personal responsibility, right? That's not my reality, it's what I do, the actions that I take.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Yep, yep. And since you're talking about self-agency, right? And in your life, I'm sure that it looked like when expectations were coming from all directions. Do you have any tips, Michelle, that worked for you? Where how did you prioritize? Where do you need to take the self-agency? Or with all these expectations that are coming to me, like how do you prioritize or how do you tread through those expectations?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah, that's always tricky. It's always hard, right? Because, you know, being in a role, you want to do so much, too much at times. And you can burn yourself out, right? For me, I had to learn how to set my boundaries. I had to learn how to say, you know, no, not now, or just no. And that's okay. I had to learn how to lead through people to help them become more effective, which allowed me time to focus on my mental wellness, my mental health. But to delegate like that, it just sometimes doesn't come naturally, you know. I was a self-starter, I was very ambitious, I wanted to do all the things. But there was a period in my career where I had to step back to say, you know what? A true leader would lead through others to help develop them, which allowed me to focus on my self-agency and such. So again, it's a learning process. It is one that we learn through our experiences, we learn through our successes, we learn through our failures to allow us to truly understand how to show up and be present for others, which means that we're being present for ourselves as well.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

That makes perfect sense. And you know, this reminds me, so I was doing my lead from within workshop with one of the organizations, and the directors, they were overwhelmed. And those that was one of the pain points we were trying to figure out. And as we were doing the science and the science nugget part of it, I was like, they couldn't delegate because there's a sense of insecurity, right? So a lot of people who are unable to delegate and they want to do everything by themselves, there's also the sense of insecurity and that, you know, if I let go, what if? And, you know, they feel that insecurity. So I think there's a lot of wisdom again and power that again you need to build inside you and within you. That's what it came out, right? When we're doing the workshop, when the leader understood that it was because of their own insecurity and they were able to actually be aware of that, it really helped them let go and actually delegate, which to somebody like you who is, you know, have that confidence within themselves, and it probably comes naturally.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Well, it didn't really come naturally initially. I find myself asking a question when I'm in a meeting, yeah, or let's just say I'm preparing for a meeting, I'll see a meeting on my schedule. I'm like, you know what? Do I really need to attend that? Or could someone else? Yeah. Right? I've invited to a conference. Well, if I don't have a speaking role, do I really need to attend? You know, so I continue to ask myself the question when is it, when should I be present, or is that a learning growth, professional development opportunity for someone else? And so I'm in that phase of my career now, where it's not necessarily me as much as empowering my team. And it feels good to be in that position. Early on, I can say I wasn't there. I felt that I needed to be all things, all people around, and that was my identity, but that's not what my identity is now. My evolving as a leader, and it's about the empowerment of my team and encouraging their success that really gives me the greatest joy.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

That's beautiful. And when did you realize that confidence wasn't about that proving yourself, right? Because a lot of us are doing that, but about being more effective, kind of what you're saying, about building this next cohort and empowering them and giving them the chance to like. Do you remember, like, was it a more slow progression that happened in your life, or was it some pivotal moments that happened that made you realize that?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

You know, it's probably both, right? It was a slow progression because again, to understand what is required of me to be an effective leader, to work on myself first was critical. It set the foundation for me to support and help others. And then the moments when my team are very excited about something they've accomplished, and I look at, well, how were they able to accomplish that? It's because I was an ally. I was a sponsor, I encouraged them. And sometimes it was just a simple thank you. I would not have done X if not for. Those moments are the joys of my life, I would say now. And because I know they'll carry that through in terms of their leadership, their empowerment and support of others.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

That's so true. And what do you think leaders misunderstand about confidence at that executive level? Because I believe this is less about certainty, but more about internal alignment.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, you know, some mistake confidence with arrogance, and that's not true. But it is about being self-aware, it's about being secure within yourself, it's about being vulnerable, it's about saying, I don't have the answer, let us find out or let me find out. It's about listening first and seeking first to understand and be able to have that level of humility, not to speak when you don't have the answer, right? So I mean there are a variety of ways to approach or to understand and bring context to it. But first, you know, I continue to go back is doing the work on yourself first before you're able to support others. It's really a mindset, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Absolutely. And what I'm hearing is that confidence at this level isn't about having all the answers. Right. It's about being grounded enough to make decisions without needing external validation. Which kind of, you know, what you're saying, it is such a big mindset shift that I think is important, but only can also come from within you, not from anything external.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

You know, and then mentorship provides confidence too. When you know that you have a network that supports you. And even if you fail, which really failures an opportunity, you know that you have a network that will continue to guide you and be that wind beneath your wings. And it gives you confidence to take risks. It gives you confidence to show up in bolder ways, it gives you confidence to know that you're not doing this alone. And that's very helpful to know that there is support out there. So that's why I believe mentorship, having a network, you know, building strong relationships are critical when you're in our leadership roles because it is lonely at the top. But you, you know, the reality is you can't trust everyone. So you need that group, that core that anchors you.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Yes. And we definitely want to talk a little bit more about that. But I want to ask you one question. Because I know you're at such a point in your career and in your role where you probably are in a lot of high-stake changes. Where you know, sometimes there are political shifts, sometimes it's organizational evolution. So where do you, and I'm seeing such a wisdom just coming from you, Marshal, and such a grounded energy. So where do you go internally to stay steady?

SPEAKER_01 22:24

I pull on my faith. That's the one strength, that's the one, is the quiz everything. I pull on my faith to steady me, to ground me, to remind me. I use this, I say this walk by faith and not by sight. When you believe that, then you truly know that that's very grounding and healing for me. My strength is through my faith. I read devotionals, I arm myself with the tools that I need to operate, to navigate in a complex world. And in many cases, particularly nowadays, I don't have the answer. But I can't say that to my team. I have to show up with the confidence. I had to show up with the vision to support them, to lead them through this. What do we call it? A VUCA environment? Volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous. And these are the times. And but for me, that's my grounding is through my faith, just so that I can show up for everyone else.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

That makes sense. That makes sense. And you know, that faith lets you with that inner alignment and that centering. Because again, all of these qualities, even if you think of a leader and somebody who really you admired in your life, it's all those intrinsic qualities, not how intelligent or how well, you know, whatever, how well spoken they were. It was really how they made you feel. So right. So what happens when leaders, especially today, right, with so much change, so much ambiguity, pressure that we all are operating in, and leaders are even in much more kind of that, you know, very peak position where everybody's watching them, right? So what happens when leaders don't do this inner work during this change and pressure? And why is it important?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Yeah, the inner work is important because it is foundational, it helps to navigate you through the change, through the pressure. And when you don't have that, you don't have that as your your guide, if you will, you become misaligned. And when you're misaligned, just kind of think about it like this: you have a map, and if you don't follow your map, you might go in the wrong direction, right? So you and there's a thing we can reroute, we can reroute, but where's the cost of continuing to reroute? So it's having that alignment within yourself, it's having that confidence to the best of your ability within yourself to show up every day to do the absolute best job possible. And then when you retire at night and you lay your head down and say, you know what? Job well done. Through all the complexities and everything, that you do the absolute best that you can do. If you feel good about that, you rise. Well, my experience for me, I rise in the morning and I am definitely motivated, refreshed to get back at it because this world is very challenging. That's the one thing that we'll always have is change. I wish I could slow the pace of change, but that's not within my control. What I am responsible for is how to navigate within it, within the environment that we're in today. And so when you have that clarity and you have that context, then I think that the misalignment will start to dissipate.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Yeah, I completely agree with you. And I honestly think that some change efforts they fail, not because of strategy, but because leaders aren't internally regulated enough to carry them. Because at the end of the day, you know, leadership doesn't happen in a vacuum or in a training room where everything is always great. It happens in these moments where change, ambiguity, tension, conflict, it just happens. You know, and I I see it often, honestly, Michelle, when I'm working with leaders, they have these brilliant strategies that can still hit a wall because their own nervous system is running the show. It's the small inner pauses that unlock the big moves. It's the small inner anchoring that keeps you steady, kind of what you're saying. When you know your map, you know the direction you're going. Otherwise, you're going to just keep rerouting and keep reacting to what's coming in front of you, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

That is very true. And, you know, we make changes and shifts along the way, but we need to steady ourselves, not to react to everything. And when you're grounded, you know that that in purpose, and you're grounded, and you know, there are times we need to we need to exercise intuition. We know these things to be true. But when you have that core in a strength, I strongly believe that that helps you, it helps you build stronger teams, it helps you to navigate change, but most importantly, it helps you to become resilient. And a resilient leader now is more important than ever before because we have to adjust or adapt, not necessarily adjust, but adapt to the evolving environment, the uncertainty as you just described that we're facing. And it sometimes feels like whiplash. We just don't know one day to another what's likely to occur. But as a leader, we have to adapt to the change and we have to build the strategies and the teams to persevere through it. And that's just what we need to do. I mean, there is no roadmap these days, like the past.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Anything can happen.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Anything can happen, and we're creating new roadmaps. And sometimes, you know, the roadmaps will cause us to reroute, but nevertheless, as you mentioned earlier, it's taking those actions, and we're all learning together. And so through this process, we have to remember grace. We have to remember that we're all at different stages in our leadership in terms of our leadership journey and our careers and things of that nature. But that's when we really help each other, we support each other through.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah, that makes sense. And you know, there was this one senior executive team member I recently was working, and they had this brilliant transformation plan, by the way. But what was happening was every meeting would go sideways because the CEO was constantly in stress and inner turmoil. And, you know, they kept reacting with tension rather than responding with choice, kind of how you were saying. And it really drove home for me once again that change isn't just a plan on paper or you know, competencies on a slide. We just make it so complicated these days. It's really just it's a system that starts with the leader themselves from within.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, the leader sets the culture of the organization, the leader is the orchestrator of the strategy. And so it's our responsibility to truly understand how do we align the first voices, how do we align it behind the plan and prepare our organizations for a future success. We have to take the emotion out of it. We can't react to everything. There are times when I am extremely stressed, and I might verbalize it every now and then, but for the most part, it's not going to set the tone in terms of the culture of the organization. So it starts with us.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Yeah. So we've talked about, you know, leadership and the leader and the individual in it and how we are transforming what leadership or workplace would look like, honestly. We don't know yet. But we also know, and you have alluded to this, and I want to a little bit tie on and a little bit talk about that now, is we know the value of partnerships, communities. And I truly believe in being intentional about who you stand by and what rooms you stand in. So if you're going back to your journey, Michelle, who helped you hold your center as you moved into larger leadership? And how did you build a tribe that could support you without pulling you off course, you know?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

You know, I was very fortunate in my career to have leaders that believed in me when I did not believe in myself. They pushed me, they encouraged me. And in many cases, I did not understand what that meant. Yeah, I was a vice president of research, and as you probably know, this is my second term here at ASAE. I came back just five years ago as CEO. And I was vice president of research before I moved on to do some other things in the industry. And my supervisor at the time, her name is Susan Safati. She said, you know, and I'm like recovering from this imposter syndrome because I moved from manager to vice president and like within a five or six year period of time. It was very rapid. So I'm at this table. I'm feeling a sense of security. Like, oh my God, do I speak up? Do I not? And Susan always believed in me when I didn't believe in myself. And I remember during my performance review, Susan said, Michelle, you know what? You get things done. I'm not going to discount that. You are great at your job. And I had that confidence, right? She said, but the one thing you need to do is find your voice.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

And that pop pause. And I'm like, find my voice. What do you mean? I'm doing all of these things. I was checking the box. But she said, you need to find your voice. And so then that helped me to realize that I needed to take responsibility and accountability for the change in me. And that led me to making a career choice to move from Washington, D.C. to Milwaukee for a position in a large global association that I had an opportunity I probably would not have had had I stayed here in DC to learn all over again in terms of about leadership. I was there and not having my family or that network. But it really forced me to be in a place of being uncomfortable to truly find that voice. And that voice led to the next role that I was able to achieve in Chicago. Then now back here at ASAE. So when I think about my tribe and I think about those who helped me and have supported me on my journey, and those that I'm very close and connected to, they're the ones that tell me what I need to hear, not what I want to hear. They're the ones that will tell me how I'm not showing up, not, you know, oh wow, you're doing great. No, I know I'm not doing great. I need you to tell me what I need to know. Now I'm doing something well, I want to hear that as well. But that's how I learn. That's how I am able to become a more effective leader. They're the ones that will help me to understand opportunities where I am not seizing in terms of my leadership journey and growth proactively. But also when I need to cry on your shoulders, they're there for me as well.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

So this is just so important, what you just said. And I want everybody to hear this. Like, you know, Michelle is a CEO of an organization which thousands, 80,000, like so many members and you know, making global impact. But none of this can be done alone. And none of this can be done in vacuum. We all need our tribe, we all need our people, we all need each other to see the light in us that sometimes we don't see in ourselves. And that's the beauty of you know, building these associations, building these communities, that Michelle is part of it now, and so many other amazing women. Honestly, Michelle, I've been meeting the last few months. It's just been amazing how all these empowered women are creating amazing opportunities and spaces for so many more to follow and guiding them and inspiring them. Because that's the other thing, right? When you see people who talk about their journey, who talk about the realities of what it is really to lead at that level, it really gives other people permission to say that, you know, oh, okay, I can do that. And, you know, and show them the power of standing beside one another.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Absolutely. When we say it was alongside each other and support each other, that's our greatest strength. Yeah. Right. Division is easy, but strength is something that just is that glue that holds us together. And it is important. It is important for us to see leaders that look like me, right? To see, that see me, that understand me. You know, there's that representation matters now more than ever before. But it's also not just the representation, but it's the actions, it's the outcomes of that elite that leader is driving towards, which is critical.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think as women, we want to hear this more than anybody else, because I do think that sometimes we believe that we must carry everything alone and that we have to figure everything out by ourselves. And it's just been so ingrained in us. So I think, again, inspirational people, women like you, and hearing from you makes a big difference because it's again that permission slip that it's okay to not have all the answers. It's okay to ask for help sometimes, or just be open to what others may see you that you may not even see in yourself again.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

So it is okay to you know venture into opportunities where you're totally uncomfortable. Those are learning opportunities. Exactly. And you know, one of the things that I try to do is to engage in communities that I absolutely have no experience or no understanding because you can learn from everyone. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

I love that. And so if we pivot into when you look at the leaders coming up now, right? Kind of you and I were having this conversation last time when we met that you know, you're in that phase where now you want to look that for giving support to others and you know, grooming others. What inner capacity do you believe they need the most right now?

SPEAKER_01 35:38

This next generation of leaders, what do they need to you know? I think the next generation has an opportunity to understand. Yeah, I kind of alluded to this, you know, there's weight to leadership, right? I mean, in some of the heaviness of it. It looks great to be in these positions, but you know, they offer so much in terms of the world that they have navigated today. But there's a lot of weight and responsibility, and they need to first seek the opportunity is to first seek to understand, as I mentioned, to appreciate, they have self-awareness, right? Yes to regulate their emotions. We can't respond to everything. We must stay steady in terms of the constant change and the pressure. There is value to stability. Yes, you know, it's not always the next thing that's most important. But when you're stable, is what it how am I learning, how am I growing during this moment of my stability to become a more effective leader? And then and just being able to appreciate the fact that, you know, there is value in respecting and protecting your mental wellness and your mental health. We all need that as a leader. We know that building teams is very important. We know that community is important, and we know that we can't do any of this work on our own. So just having that clarity of focus and purpose is important as well. So I believe in reverse mentoring. As I'm saying all of this, I realized that I operate, I am from a different generation. And they're in a generation with the most advanced technology and all the things. And I need to learn that too. So I am excited that I have next gen in my life that push me and you know to do these. And one thing they try to push me on is to be more active on social media, but I'm just not there yet. But sometimes that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Sometimes that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Social media can be super overstimulated. I like that. I like that energy in my life. I like their curiosity. I like the fact that they, in some cases, are uninhibited. They don't bring kind of that legacy way of thinking. And that helps me to become more rounded as a leader. And actually, in some cases, I get very excited because I know they are the future. And my responsibility is to support that future.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

That's beautiful. And that's such a great message and anchoring on our future generation, which is here before you know it. But, Michelle, before we wrap up, I want to give you a chance to share a little bit about the amazing work that ASAE is doing right now, especially for leaders navigating change, complexity, and growth. We've talked about community and how that's so important. So if you can share that a little bit and what are you most excited about in the work your team and members are driving?

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah, it's wonderful. Well, you know, ASAE, as you share, we're the association for associations, and we are doing some incredible work. Our focus is the protection of the not-for-profit community, but specifically focused on associations. And the work that we do are is centering around impact and influence. The work that we're doing is about centers around talent readiness, making sure this next generation has the tools and the resources required to effectively lead into the future. And also may centers around our member experiences that they have because our members are expecting for us in many cases to go first in terms of that's why they join us as an organization. We will not always be successful. But the excitement is when we're not successful, when we fail, we bring our members on that learning journey, what that is as an organization. So when we think about ASAE, there are three pillars that are starting to emerge for us as we enter into the future: influence, impact, talent, readiness, and member experience. We have a very strong public policy apparatus here at ASAE. We are very committed to representing and advocating on behalf of the profession. We are very committed to growing the profession through our certified association executive programs. So we're doing a lot of good work. But one of the areas that really get me excited is that we're experimenting on behalf of the association community through an incubator that we created about three years ago. And so that's where we take risks on behalf of the association community. That's where we bring others in from outside of our community so we can learn together on what are those new advances that will move this sector forward. So that gets me excited. It gives me hope because, again, as we talked about earlier, there's no roadmap. We are all creating new roadmaps, and then we'll kind of reroute and all of that. So, where do we go to bring this ecosystem together so we can learn and support the sector? Whether you are an association professional or industry partner, if you touch this community, we want to be that go-to place, and we are definitely committed to collaborating with you to lead forward in the future.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

It's so exciting. Oh my God, so much happening, huh? I love that incubator idea. Well, I love hearing that, and I will love forward to, you know, again, get more deeper with you when we meet next. But it really highlights for me how leadership isn't just about a title or a strategy. It's about creating systems, communities, and environments where leaders can show up fully and do their best work, honestly, right? So today's conversation has been such a reminder that leadership doesn't just require vision, it requires a leader who can hold themselves steady and lean under pressure while the system moves, changes happen, and confidence, self-agency, and community are nice to have. They are the infrastructure that allows change to actually land. So I want to say this again for everyone listening. If you're ready to step into that kind of leadership, to lead from within, strengthen your inner system, and activate your own boss brain, head over to pallavy-gen.com to learn more about our workshops and resources to get started. Because leadership isn't about leading when everything outside is great, but about leading with inner clarity and conviction when pressure hits. And I definitely want you to check out ASAE to see how Michelle and her team are helping thousands of leaders elevate their impact every day. So I just want to thank again, Michelle Yu, for so much sharing and your wisdom, your lived experience, and the heart that you put into leadership that you have shared with us today. This conversation will definitely stay with me and many of us, and I'm deeply grateful that you joined us here on Her Boss Brain. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Thank you so much. So grateful, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

So that's it for today's episode of Her Boss Brain Podcast. Head on over to Apple Podcasts iTunes or wherever you listen and subscribe to the show. One lucky listener every single week that posts a review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes will win a chance in a grand prize drawing to win a twenty-five thousand dollar private VIP day with Pollovy herself. Be sure to head on over to her bossbrainpodcast.com and pick up a free copy of Pollovy's Gift and join us next time.