Episode 36: Conviction Over Comfort: How CEOs Use Brain-Based Leadership to Make Better Decisions Under Pressure

What does it really take to lead with conviction when the pressure is high and the path is uncertain?

In this episode of Her BOSS Brain – Stress to Success, Pallavi Jain sits down with CEO Amy Hollis to explore what conscious leadership looks like in real time — not in theory, but in the moments that test your clarity, confidence, and decision-making.

Amy is the CEO of Employees First, a company reshaping how organizations think about voluntary benefits and human sustainability at work. But her journey is more than a business story,  it’s a masterclass in leading from within when systems resist change and outcomes are not guaranteed.

Together, they unpack:

• The difference between operating on autopilot vs. leading with awareness
• How high-performing leaders use self-awareness and brain-based practices to make better decisions under pressure 
• Why conviction often requires going against the system — and how to stay grounded when others don’t see your vision 
• The hidden cost of leadership: where energy, clarity, and connection are lost without intentionality 
• How the ATM Framework (Arrive, Take Responsibility, Make a Conscious Choice) helps leaders shift from reaction to conscious action 
• Why inner leadership is the most underestimated driver of culture, performance, and long-term success 

Amy also shares candid reflections on failure, resilience, and what it takes to build and scale a company while staying aligned with your values.

This conversation is especially relevant for women leaders, executives, and founders navigating growth, pressure, and the constant demand to perform — without losing themselves in the process.

If you’ve ever questioned your path, second-guessed your decisions, or felt the pull between comfort and conviction — this episode will challenge and ground you.

Key Takeaway: The most powerful leadership doesn’t come from external validation. It comes from your ability to pause, regulate your inner system, and make conscious choices in moments that matter.

Follow Her BOSS Brain for more episodes on leadership, neuroscience, mindset, and practical tools to move from stress to success.

To bring this work into your organization through leadership workshops or keynote speaking, visit: www.pallavi-jain.com 

You can also share your thoughts, questions or feedback at: herbossbrain@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

If you're a high-achieving woman who's exhausted by stress, stuck in constant conflict, and tired of being overlooked in the exact rooms where you know you were born to lead, then this podcast is for you. So here's your host, Paul V. Jane.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Don't stop.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Welcome back to Her Boss Fray. I'm your host, Palibi. This is a space where we explore what it really takes for women leaders to move from stress and survival mode into clarity, confidence, and conscious leadership. Because here's the truth. Most leadership conversations today focus on strategies, skills, and external performance. But when pressure arises, and it always does, something deeper takes over. Our inner system. And the leaders who learn to navigate that inner system are the ones who lead differently. They lead with clarity, conviction, and courage, even when the path ahead is uncertain. Today's conversation is a powerful example of that kind of leadership. Our guest today is Amy Hollis. She's the CEO of Employees First, who is challenging how employers think about voluntary benefits and human sustainability at work. Long before the market began paying attention, Amy saw a gap and she had the conviction to build something that didn't yet fully exist. That kind of leadership is not easy. When you're questioning systems, pushing new ideas, and building something ahead of its time, you will face skepticism. You will face uncertainty. And there will be moments where you have to decide whether to stay on autopilot or step into conscious leadership. I've had the privilege of working with Amy and her leadership team through the Leap From Within program we did last year. And what struck me most about her leadership journey is the intentionality she brings to leading and handling moments that are unfolding in front of her. The willingness to pause, to reflect, to admit sometimes that she's not perfect, and to make conscious choices even under pressure. In today's conversation, we're going to talk about what that really looks like in the life of a CEO, the moments that test your conviction, the courage it takes to challenge established systems, and what happens when leaders learn to trust their inner compass instead of waiting for external validation. Amy's story is one of resilience, conviction, and purposeful leadership. And I think many of you listening will see parts of your own leadership journey reflected in it. I want to welcome again Amy to this show. Welcome to Herboss Brain.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Of course. And you deserve each and every part of it. And I have a lot and a lot to cover with you. So if you're okay with that, we're gonna just jump right in.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Sounds like a plan.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

All right. So I know this, but for our listeners, most people see the CEO today. But what shaped the leader in you long before that title?

SPEAKER_02 3:03

So you know the whole question around leadership and is really very thought-provoking because you can have a vision of something, or you can be have a thought or foresee things that are happening or what that could mean, what the impact is. That doesn't necessarily mean leadership. You know, it literally is a part of the puzzle, but it's not the full puzzle, and frankly, it's not the key puzzle. So I think that shaping my leadership has come through a lot of mistakes, through a lot of being open to hearing difficult things, which I've never had a problem with that, which is, you know, I feel very fortunate with this, but that is probably the, you know, if you're not willing to listen to and hear the things that you could be doing differently, then you're never gonna get to do it differently. So I've never had a problem with that, but it makes you really face who you are, why you're doing it, what's behind it. And most importantly, I think from a leadership standpoint, you know, the difference between having a vision and having a vision that you see and that you could follow or you could get behind is being connected.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

So that's you know, that connect, bringing the intentionality. And frankly, the reason that I do see things that other people may not and solve problems that other people may not be there yet, is the very reason why I had to be so intentional about being connected and understanding and being present in the moment. Yes, yes, because it's not about what I believe, it's about what you believe after encountering or hearing from me.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

That makes perfect sense. And was there an early moment in life where you realize that you know you tend to question systems rather than simply follow them? Or actually, I'll put it another way because it's just a perspective, or put it another way was like you were always looking for improvement and how to make things better. Right?

SPEAKER_02 4:58

I don't remember a time that I haven't done that. So there wasn't like a point in imagine that there wasn't a point in time that you know that's just been a part of my DNA of like and I love that. You know, the the you either love what you're good at or you're good at what you love. I'm not sure which is which, but it's literally it gives me a euphoric feeling to solve problems. I just I love that. And the other thing that gives me euphoric feeling is seeing people kind of rise above what they thought who they thought they were or perform or uh get who they are with they didn't know that before. I love that too. But that part of the journey is something that's just been a part of my DNA from day one, from school, college, and even early career. But like I said before, that does not necessarily shape a leader, you know, because doing something about a vision is and bringing others on board to a vision takes a completely different and frankly, sometimes an opposite skill set that brings it into reality.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yes, that is so true. So I love the work that you do, right? So just bringing coming back to that, because also as an HR leader, it was very intriguing to me when we first connected and you told me all about it. And I'm like, gosh, I didn't know any of that. So anybody listening to it for the first time, so the work you're doing in voluntary benefits, right, is something many employers actually are only now starting to understand, and maybe very few of them. But what problem did you see early on that others weren't seeing yet? If you can talk about that, because I think a lot of HR leaders like me didn't know what their broker was telling them, what was really happening. And I think it it's really enlightening to really understand how this all works. So if you can tell us a little bit of that, somebody who has not heard any of this, so it makes sense to them.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Or just to give high-level, you know, voluntary benefits first defined. And we're not talking about supplemental life or disability, which have been a part of the fabric of benefits for years and years and years. The ones I'm talking about are they have really emerged since primarily since the Affordable Care Act. And frankly, the exchange or the marketplace started to give the employers more choice to give to their employees for diverse workforce and things like that. And the whole term marketplace means shopping, right? So that's when these plans started taking really more of a front and center role. Things like the critical illness, accident, hospital indemnity, or even pet insurance, some of the others, the things that are the non-traditional employee-paid benefits that employers are offering to their employee population with you know group purchasing power, right? And to expand the benefit menu and to provide you know diversity in the benefit options to fit the diverse population. So they became really popular. And I think that, but the it was not a well-understood space, if you will. They knew medical, they knew life and disability. But how things work behind the scenes for some of these other plans was very different. Usually these came from the individual marketplace. So individual policies that you really can't change the plan design and pricing based on your population. That has evolved, but where it came from is really important to where we are now. And the number one attribute of these plans is because they can be really great plan designs, but there was a lot of money in these plans, a lot of profit margin in these plans that used to go towards an agent that was, you know, having to promote or sell the plan, individual products, and mitigate the carrier's adverse selection by selling it at the work site, ask about it at work. So that was a huge campaign in the early 2000s that really kind of anchored this. But then these plans became a part of the benefit menu. Employers were not really understanding very much about it. And that what I'll call an ecosystem, ecosystem of benefit delivery, benefit consulting, benefit, you know, all of the different aspects of the benefit delivery system. There's a lot of margin in these products that could, you know, that they became profit margins for the benefit ecosystem and not necessarily with the employer knowing or understanding it. And they're the fiduciary. So, you know, it led to the plan value question as to whether or not how fallibility is plans, because if they could pay out that much of compensation, how much are they actually paying in claims, you know, compared to the 85% requirement of Affordable Care Act? So the seeing that the problem evolve really struck right after Affordable Care Act. And we all thought that after they started becoming mainstay, that they'd be part of the regular benefits menu and that the loss ratios would drop. And they did not. And so when the more I saw that, the more I realized that employers were, you know, wanting to bring value to their population and didn't necessarily understand that they may not have been because they were trusting the ecosystem and not understanding where all the dollars were going. That's the bottom line.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Wow, that's a lot. And that's like rocking a complete full plan, action, system that that's in place for for years. And so when you first started advocating for this approach, right, did people understand it or did you face skepticism?

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yes. The reason I say yes is because those that were in the space, now this is what I would say. I've lived deeply on the health plan cost management side. Yes. I've also lived deeply on the, you know, been in the trenches on the voluntary benefit side. And not until you've been in like lived it do you really understand it. Yeah. And so those that had lived it and known it, they knew exactly what was going on. They knew exactly what I was doing. But most did not. I mean, employers and even some of the smartest consultants, you know, in the industry that were, you know, I would start to talk about these plans, these programs, and the whole ecosystem, and they'd glaze over and they're smarter than me, but they didn't know how it worked. And there's, you know, it's death by a thousand cuts. There's a so many minutiae things to know about these products to understand how to first navigate it and how to make the, you know, create the best value for the employer and the employee ultimately. But there's a lot of ways around that too. When you have a veil of obscurity, and you know, the Affordable Care Act required that these plans, in particular, some of the supplemental health plans, as I call them, they required them to be fully insured. That brings available uh obscurity of where the dollars are actually going just by the nature of being fully insured as opposed to opening up like a self-funded. And so I think that the population that needed to understand what this was, and they had to first understand the problem before they could understand the significance of the solution. I'm still educating, you know, I'm still literally going in front of employer forums, not even talking about my company, just to educate, just to explain this is what's happening in the market, this is where these plans came from, this is what it means to you, and this is where your risks, this is where your benefits could potentially be. That's the fun part because there's a lot of potential, huge potential, which don't get me started. That's the closet actuary. I'm not an actuary actuary comes out or the wannabe actuary, but then there's also a lot of risk.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

So, you know, it's the explanation and the education part. And frankly, as you well know, most employers they have untenable cost factors going against them today, you know, with the rising cost of healthcare. Their primary focus, as it should be, are going to be on those the key plans. And so they they haven't even the bandwidth to stop and actually understand. So they typically would turn, you know, that those decisions over to their advisors or their consultants to help them craft that, and that really great consultants out there that are really assisting employers in very appropriate and very meaningful ways, and many that are not because there's so much money to be made. Behavioral incentive, probably this is what behavior will follow incentive. And so you have to figure out where the dollars are going to understand what the incentives are and where that misalignment of incentives could occur because of where the dollar's low.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, that makes sense. Again, once you understand it, it makes sense. But the problem is a lot of us don't understand when we are in the system and we're used to doing things in a certain way and you know, kind of falling back on our broker or the person we're working with and then saying, okay, they're gonna tell us all the things, right? That's their job.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

But exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Well, what's interesting to me, and we have had these conversations, like what made you stay committed when some of the other people didn't see this vision or may have even the problem with this vision in their own ways, but right, what was it? Because I think that's where your power lies. And I really wanted to share that that with our audience, with all our women leaders who are listening today. Where did that commitment come from?

SPEAKER_02 13:51

I think the biggest part of it is because I understood it deeply and in the positions that I've held, you know, over time that they helped to shape the industry, is where it is today, is knowing without it, knowing certain terms, that this was the right path to go down. And I don't mean to, I hate the word right, you know, because it's not about reading right or wrong, but this was a correction. There was clearly a need for a correction, clearly a need for education and understanding so you could make better decisions. There's just no question about that. And I think that my conviction came from that space of knowing you can't put the cat back in the bag once you know what's going on. You just can't. And I think that the conviction of knowing the extent of you know some of the misbehavior in the market. Frankly, I had no design. I think I told you this, I had no design on starting a company. I was independent consulting, I'd done that a few times in my career. I build a practice and then I go out and do my own thing that I build. That's my thing. I'm a builder. That's my brand is you know, get us two to three years ahead of the market. And that because that's what I love to do, right? Yeah. And so I didn't have any design on starting a company at this stage in my career, but it was seeing firsthand that the problem was getting worse.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

And knowing that who else is gonna stand there. And I would say that there's others as well, and I commend them, you know, and others that came before me that weren't even in the benefits industry, like I was, that saw a problem, but they didn't have the knowledge of the, especially for large market employers, because that's where the difference is going to be made. Large market employers have always been the ones to shift an industry and put it up on Zen, because if they make a decision, then the rest will follow over time. So, you know, I commend those that had attempted and tried to and made some footholds, but from the standpoint of really shifting an industry and changing it where there's no going back, that was my conviction of what do I have to lose? That's part of it. Because I was so uh knew what was happening that was not right, and that once employers understood that, and even the market understood that, and some already knew that they already knew it, but it's business Plot. I mean, uh it's you have to understand these are good people too. Absolutely. They're good people, they're trying to do their jobs, they're meeting their goals, and companies are you know reporting earnings, all the stuff that you know that can lead to that, but it didn't make it right. And there weren't many that were in the position, independent, like I was, to be able to make a stand. And you know, it was just a conviction of knowing that the it needed to change because it was going in such a bad direction as far as just the margin and the lack of knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think I would add there also your inner confidence in knowing that you could fix it and that you have the answers. Because I think at the end of the day, that matters, right? Even as a CEO now, you know, you're leading under pressure all the time with different in various different ways, right? But as a CEO, that pressure is constant, whether it's decisions, whether it's managing your own people, growth, you're in the scaling phase, you know, expectations. What has conscious leadership meant to you in those moments? Because I think you're a great ambassador of that. And I want people to hear that from you.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Well, and I would say that first of all, being a CEO, there was a lot of learning. I have been humbled beyond description in thinking I've launched practices before. I've you know had PL, I've put you know, teams together, I've built organizations. I could be a CEO. I had no idea. I was humbled by that. It's brought a whole it's actually even self-learning, you know, like learning more about myself. It has been a journey for me, and a positive one, but a hard one. And one of the best I've ever taken, really, truly. And for the best reason, right? You know, so I think that just uh the bringing that that you hit the nail on the head is the intentionality. And as a going back to what I was saying in the beginning, you can know what to do and you can know how to do it, which I often do, you know, that's just kind of like my thing. That's what it but leading an organization or people or individuals for that is a totally different skill set. And it's a totally different, and frankly, like I said before, the reasons that I can solve problems are gonna be the very reasons that are going to be an obstacle for me to lead because I'm thinking of all of the stuff that I got to stay connected and I gotta be aware and I've got to, you know, bring the be present in the moment because it's about the people that are gonna be doing it with you and for you and around you. That's the key. So the level of intentionality for me has been so much greater. Some people are very natural as leaders, but maybe not natural problem solving, whatever the case is. That part didn't come natural for me. It really did require, and that's why you see the intentionality, because I wouldn't be able to do what I want to do and what I have a vision of doing unless I really had polished or dug into or refined the ability to be that present and to connect and to make sure people are understanding and tracking with you and not getting ahead or behind or sideways. And that's what I see is the key to leadership is if you can't do that, what are you leading yourself? It's like you have to bring the energy that you feel convicted about to a broader set of people so they feel the energy and then they can do their best and do better than you in certain categories, you know. Um, so I think that the level of intentionality for me, especially in this role with employees first, has really taken front and center stage for me. It had to, because of you know, the it we are we're an island, right? And kind of coming up against an industry and uh challenging an entire industry. And so we really have to band together. Yeah, and you know, that part of that is making the leadership is making really difficult decisions too who should be a part of that team, right? Absolutely, or you know, it's just making decisions around the kind of team members to bring on board is very different when you are with a young company than it is, you know, when you're with an established multi-billion dollar firm, even though you're starting a practice. That was a learning for me, Pahlavi, that I, you know, like I said, a humble, humbling learning, but a good one, a really good one. And something that I had to do if I was gonna set out uh actually accomplish what we set out to do, which was change in industry.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

No, that makes sense. And I know you have many of these, so could you share, like recall, a defining leadership moment where the stakes were high and you had to trust your gut.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Oh, there's several that tells you a lot. I think that some of them are internal within the organization, making really tough decisions in shaping the team and even shaping the direction, staying the course. I I would tell you just it's been grit because as we've developed this organization, we started going down roads and it was the wrong road. And we'd have to go back and go down a different road, and that was it. So it's been a winding road. And I think that the tenacity and keeping the energy towards seeing the goal, seeing where we needed to get to. That was probably the most important aspect of making sure that I kept that in front of mind because it would have been so easy to stop, quit, redirect, go into and it to this day it would be, but it's really keeping in the front of mind where we were headed and why I started the company to begin with. Yes. And why people join the company, right? It's like that that was really defining it. There were more moments than I could even probably describe where we started going in a direction and needed to redirect. It turns out that every single one of those situations, and I said this to you before, it's where we have a guardian angel because decisions that I would not have known to make.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

I was stopped by a brick wall. And it's like, well, I gotta find another direction. I wouldn't have done that had the brick wall not hit. And it turned out to be the best direction for isn't that amazing. It's truly, truly amazing. And beyond, you know, this was not by my wares or anything. It's fortunate. But having the conviction and the clarity of thinking back and remembering why we were doing this and keeping your eye there, because if you kept your eye on all of the things that came up in the front, we wouldn't be here.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

And I do think that this takes a certain level of tenacity and grit, if you will. Absolutely. Honoriness, maybe. I don't know. Maybe resilience.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

I think it's definitely a big example of your resilience and the resilience of the team who is supporting you and you know moving forward with you.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

So, you know, supported me in a really tangible way that is like, you know, without them, it's like it was really Banda Brothers.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Exactly, exactly. And I've known them, I've worked with them, they're all amazing, wonderful people. And with again, such intentionality, and I think does trickle down your own leadership, your own style, your own conviction, it matters because it really trickles down to your team. I have firsthand, you know, seen that in your organization. So looking back, you know, as an example, you are the best person who learns from your mistake, who talks openly about it and help others, you know, around you. So if you have to look back, where did you know operating on autopilot cost you the most, if that ever happened? Was that energy, clarity, or connection, like any example you can share with us today?

SPEAKER_02 24:00

I think probably the first of all, it's cost me in all three of those categories. But the one that is most notable to me is the connection.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Because of going in that autopilot mode. And remember, my tendency is to, you know, be in my own head, you know, which is a part of the reason I can solve problems. But so I have a tendency to go there to begin with, but it's the connection has been the biggest price that I've paid, you know, in all directions. And also the but the reason that it was so important for me to understand and really, really dig into that and understand, you know, we bring ourselves to work. We bring our we can't get away from where we bring ourselves to work and really understand it's not just a price tag in the business, it's everywhere, you know, and that's for anybody. You bring yourself. So I think that staying the power of slowing down. Yes, that brings intentionality to begin with. I've got a little more energy than most, right? Which has been a great attribute for me and probably one of my biggest obstacles and issues. But slowing down enough and just stopping and just getting outside and being aware of what was going on around me and being connected to that has been the price tag and the reward of really addressing that and making sure that you know the connection with the team members or even people that were working with even our clients, just making sure that that has been like in a wonderful epiphany for me of like how important that really is and how fulfilling it is, you know, when you bring intentionality to that aspect.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

I love that. And I have definitely seen you in action, and I'm very, very proud of you. So let's journey. You've been a big part of the journey.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Thank you. Of course. And so when we worked together in the Lead Promethein program last year, was there a moment or idea that really landed for you?

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Oh my gosh, there's not one. I can't think back. There were so many, so many things. And actually, one of them, where is it? I'm gonna find it. What your automatic, and I am here it is, what your automatic reactions are that's just being human. And I'm pointing to this thing against shaking up. This is how people usually know me right here. Um, and that's even in it, you know, because so the awareness of that and the ability to do have take tangible steps, and also not only the awareness of the impact. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of energy here, and that can energy can be positive and negative. Yes, and in ways that I didn't realize, and I think back on it's like that was the reaction that a person or something had that was not even remotely intentional, but just thinking back on that and realizing that was what the impact of because whenever you have a lot of energy, and I do have that can be good and bad, right? And the synergy can be good and bad, and so harnessing that in a way or checking it, bringing the tangible ways that you have taught us how to stop and be aware of it, and actually, of course, correct. That was I think that if I had to say one, and I'm not perfect at it, but I have the tools.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Yes, yes, and nobody is perfect, and that's the thing, it's the you know, always continuous improvement that we're on. So if we have to bring back to the ATM framework that we talk a lot here as a tangible tool, which is again arrive, take responsibility, and make a conscious choice. Have you used that ATM framework in real situations since then?

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Oh, yes. Like I said, I think that first of all, is taking the awareness. Yes, the being aware of what's even physically happening, where you know, and it could be positive or sometimes not going in a positive direction. The first is the awareness and then literally taking the steps it inside of meetings or you know, just in in interactions with team members or clients or whatever. Those it you once you become aware, like putting the cat back in the back, once you're aware of it, you can't be unaware of it, right? And you know what's happening. So there's countless situations that I can't even really number where taking those that moment, first of all, becoming aware of it and learning what to do like tangibly. And it takes practice though. That's right. That's the one thing it's like you're not gonna just think of it on your own, especially when it doesn't come naturally. It's your natural knee-jerk reaction is going to be what it's been, especially with where you come from, you know, what's what where your experiences in the past. That's gonna come naturally. So doing the unnatural, like I used to be a big snow skier, I haven't, it's been years, but I love it. And it doesn't make logical sense for you to lean downhill to have more control. And for those of you that are snowskiers, you know what I'm talking about. You have to do the opposite of what would make sense or what your conscious is saying is that's safe or not safe. To lean into a deep, a steep hill is makes you put you in a safer position than it would to lean backwards, which you want to, and that makes you more at risk. So it's very similar to that. You have to go to those things that don't feel natural, and if they don't feel natural, you got to practice at it a lot. Um in situations where you know you can be taken over by the old reactions that you would have. And it's all about that thought. It's all about your reaction to the current moment, and that's about the and you know, reaction to the current moment as to whether or not it's gonna be successful or not with your team members, with your clients, with your family. It's across the board.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

That makes sense. And what just Amy said, I would just reiterate here because she and I have a lot of these conversations. But you know, what she's saying is real life is happening in the present moment. Past and future are only your mental projections, they're not trivial. The real life is happening right now, and if you're not totally present, you're completely missing on it. That's number one. And number two, what you mentioned about practice, I talk a lot about that here because you know, it's easier to practice ATM and these concepts when you're not in pressure situations, because it gets even harder because your automatic reactions take over. And it's really like building a muscle. When you go to the gym, you start small, you keep doing it, keep doing it, and you're slowly and slowly you're building those muscles same way. You're building new neural connections. The more you do it, the more those are getting stronger. And before you know it, they will become your automatic kind of, you know, how you respond because you've trained your mind over the time with these small little things. So sometimes you may think, oh, what is it doing? It's such a small little thing, but you don't know what impact it's having on your brain, on your nervous system when you consciously keep practicing the same pattern and the same way of responding rather than reacting, right? Just that one thing that we're talking about. So I am very excited for the phase of you know, your leadership, your company where you're in. I know you're kind of, you know, in this phase of scaling for impact. So from what I see, you're entering this phase in your company now. So what excites you most about this next chapter?

SPEAKER_02 31:17

I would say that, you know, there there's a number of things that are exciting, but is the most exciting thing for me, truly, right, in this space is seeing how you know, from the the team actually the team's gonna be the one that takes us there, not me. Yeah, and seeing that level of ownership and seeing that level of pride and seeing that level of you know gumption and their tenacity. That is, I told you in the beginning, two things get me excited. One is solving problems, and the other is just seeing people rise up above where they even think they are, and I'm seeing that's really exciting. The impact on the market, that's been there from day one. The desire to make a difference, that's been there. You know, all of the things that's been there, but the thing that's exciting me now that is real now are those things with having the team really be able to enjoy the success of where they are taking us, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

No, that makes sense. So, you know, I was thinking about this. So, how do you see inner leadership, right? Because you live it every single day. So the question is, how do you see inner leadership or the lack of it shaping organizations today?

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Inner leadership is the number one. It's got to be first priority. It has to take precedence, you've got to give it, you have to practice it, you have to give it time, attention, focus, and you gotta go to those places that nobody likes to go to. Yeah, it's not fun. And I think and I would encourage, and it's I've had to do more than most, right, in that category, but it's also can be really rewarding. So the inner leadership is really a function of just taking it, doesn't have to be overwhelming. It doesn't have to be, I've got to be baby steps. And I've just taking the very tangible steps and even a few at a time. It's literally just going and the conviction for that, and really kind of reminding yourself why you'd want to do that to begin with, because in the end, you know, the reward is really the biggest seeing and having it occur the way it plays out when you do check that, and that's maybe not the right, but you really have to check yourself, and also not beat yourself up because we all have, you know, I've made more mistakes the and actually the same mistakes many times more than most, right? It's like but it's uh actually okay. It's actually okay from a journey standpoint, and it's okay to be vulnerable and let people know your underbelly, right? It helps to build that team and the trust and to have let people know that you're that this is what you're working with, and this is what you see. I remember we entered into not too long ago, into when some news started coming out, and we entered into okay, it's here it is, and I told the team, this is what you're gonna see from me, because it's my natural and you know, I'm aware of it. Make sure that you tell people, you know, it's actually better to let them know in advance because you're gonna fall back into it, right? It's just you know, it's being human. So the intentionality is just the daily practice, the and and when you're falling short of that, just starting back from scratch again, and which is okay because it's a lot faster of a path to get to where you were and know that you're going to just being aware that it's gonna happen and that it's okay, and that you know, but having the fortitude to stay at it.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

That makes so much sense, and so many I learned all this from. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

I just but you know what you just mentioned, giving yourself permission, giving yourself grace. I was just about to say that, and you said it because I think that is so important because we sometimes be are, I mean, sometimes not always, we are the most unkind to ourselves, so you know, definitely don't do that. And sorry, especially women.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

They will absolutely women are harder on themselves, and I don't mean to be sexist about this, but there is a tendency uh for that self, you know, deprecate, the just nothing. And it's all in the it's all in the pathway of self-correction, but it can go too far. And we as women have a tendency to do that.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Yep, absolutely. No, that makes perfect sense to me. And so how has, because I think that's the other part that people don't understand when we are working on this inner leadership and we have this conviction, the intentionality that you kind of lead with naturally, but how has leading from within transformed you personally, not just professionally? Because I think it's important to note that down as well, because like you said, we bring our whole selves to work, right? We don't have these two separate compartments in our head.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

It's the same impact, you know, even more profoundly with your family. You know, I think you know, I have my three kids, my two the last two are twins. They're going off to college next year, sniff sniff. I know, yeah, they're graduating this year, and it just making the most of those moments and making decisions about bringing intentionality in that connection, and especially now when it's not the easiest thing to connect with a 17-year-old or an 18-year-old. And but it's that definitely has had an impact in my personal life. It's there's not one area, there's never going to be one area, it's gonna impact it and bleed it the positive or the negative into just about every area of your life. So connection, you know, and even just with your family and family members, it's your core as well as your extended family members. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

That's beautiful. So, you know, your work is so much on human sustainability and doing more for the employees and the employers. What is one thing that you think executives and boats, right, on that level, because they're often stuck in these preemptive ways and how they work, right? What do they often underestimate about culture and human sustainability in these organizations?

SPEAKER_02 37:32

What do the executives?

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

I would say that what they underestimate the most is exactly what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

Is the inner, is the it fostering inner leadership.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

And the impact. So they have to think about the organization. And it's all it truly is, it's bottom line. What's the cost of what's the reward of that? And that's you know, that's fair and that's reasonable, and that's that's business. But having the fundamental understanding of you can have training, you can have system, you can have process, you can have all of these things. You can have, you know, consulted with the most impactful way to get to a goal or bring success is to address inner leadership of the individuals. And I think that's the thing that most people just don't are aware of, or they realize the impact, or spending money on it, or you know, bringing intentionality to it, because it's not something that um, you know, we've talked about some studies and things like that that have come out, but it's not something that's broadly discussed. They talk about health in the form of physicality and you know what happens and what's the outcomes and the cost and all that stuff, and not on the price of not having that level of inner leadership and and the intentionality in those areas that we've discussed and the impact on health, right? Um, or even within their teams, being able to get the most out of or the best out of, or for them to have their best experience with you. I think that has been that's evasive for most employers, not just in benefits, but in all areas. Uh, and that's where the power lives, in truth, you know. But there's not the forum today, which the kinds of things that you're doing can shift an organization, but it's not in something that's known. You're very much in the space that I it's like how firsthand you have to educate. So this is why we can activate first you gotta educate. Here's the problem, because most people aren't even aware of it, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

That's right, that's right. So when we think about now the legacy of your work, Amy, which I so passionately, passionately support, understand, and admire, what impact do you hope it ultimately creates?

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Wow, that's a good question. What impact and actually something that you do have to have the answer to, like you bring that sustainability and bring that passion. You know, there's layers to it. Yes, but I I think if I had to distill it into a phrase or word is to bring a level of integrity to this space, because if you can bring that all of the outcomes better, benefit programs, trust, yes, all of the other things that uh stronger, stronger financial well-being. Because that's what all voluntary benefits has always been about, financial well-being. Yeah, how can I, you know, beyond the paycheck, get this employee to want to work for me, and then how do I help save them money from their paycheck or from their you know, their savings, right? It that's all what voluntary benefits are. And so you have to think about, but that's those are all outcomes of just bringing truth and integrity to a space. And nobody's against making profit. That's making the part of it. Reasonable, reasonable margins, and you know, and it's worth it. But I think that that's a part of bringing the integrity to space.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

I love that. So if you could tell every leader listening one thing about trusting their inner conviction, we have talked about a lot about conviction and intentionality here. So if you could tell every leader listening one thing about trusting their inner conviction, especially when the path feels uncertain, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 41:28

So this is a question I had to answer myself is going back to the base and I many, many times, and it's really it's so important is really understanding where the drive, where the impetus, where did it come from originally? Because typically and usually it's from a really good and worthy place, right? Yes, and usually the things that derail or change that conviction are from external, and some of them aren't even real. It's getting centered in is that really the case? Is that really true? And the answer is usually no. But that is typically what will derail a direction because of you know what is perceived. And it's not an easy thing to do, and I haven't mastered it, but going back to the very basics of what your conviction was to begin with, and I hate the word right, but I can't think it was it on the right side. Is it something that is lifting? Is it something that is making it better? If that's what's behind it, then that's where the energy comes from to keep you from being unstoppable.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

You know, because there are gonna be a lot of entities and a lot of people that'll want to stop it. Yes, for good reasons and for some not so good reasons. You know, that's just again, that's just the way of the world, but getting back to that very basic tenant of your initial conviction and knowing who you are in that, and most people, a lot of people don't actually know that. Yes. I had to, I mean, you know, it's not a trick question, but what's it really for? And and leaning on that because that's what will give you the tenacity, the grit, and the fortitude for the tough times that do come and they will come, you know, and some of them actually make things better, like I've experienced in miraculous ways, but it's just getting back to the very basics of your initial conviction.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Yeah, and I love that, and it makes perfect sense because I think from that inner conviction is where the inner clarity is coming, where the confidence is coming, right? Because then you know exactly what you're doing and you're going after what you kind of said the right thing, or maybe creating that meaningful impact, right, that you're trying to make. So it makes sense because once you have that inner clarity, kind of what you said, then it's out of the can, you know, cat is out of the can, it's out. You see it clearly. And grounding yourself and bringing back to that truth that started the whole thing. Because, you know, in my last organization, you know, we were working. A lot of things, and we're working on clean energy and a lot of stuff. And many times organizations forget why they started these initiatives and becomes a competition rather than a cooperative effort of making something better for the planet. I mean, just an example. So, same way, I think coming back to your integrity and to your inner clarity that why did I started this in the first place? What was the conviction? What was the reason behind me going against the grain, fighting with all these people and getting my work, you know, thing done because I believed in it? And what was that? Because it's very easy, like you said, with all the external pressure, overstimulation, people telling us things, we trying to maneuver all this in our day-to-day life. We can get lost in it. And it's very easy. It happens to all of us. And right, just coming back to what you have taught us today is also then not beating yourself up on it and saying, it's okay. I made a mistake. I need to pivot. I need to change my direction. And that's totally okay because that's not where I was meant to go. Right. So I love that. And I have to say this again, Amy, that I haven't met many CEOs, especially women CEOs, who have that confidence and conviction to sometimes also start over and say, you know, I made a mistake. Because we get in ahead of ourselves and we get in our ways where we say, Oh, I've spent all this money, I've spent all this time, what are people gonna say? What is my team gonna say? But it requires a lot of self-security within yourself and confidence that if I know, and I think integrity, you just, you know, it's such a great thing that you just said because that keeps you anchored. Right. And confidence. Right? Is this aligning with my integrity? And if it is, then it's easy to create that inner clarity. So you were saying something.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

And just the you know, the word confidence and it especially for women, that's that can come across in a way that is off-putting. But confidence can be, and sometimes confidence it depends on what the source of that confidence is.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Right? And it's uh confidence isn't a bad word. It actually can be a really good thing. You can self-check, you can be aware of, you can be clear on, you can own your mistakes, you know, without having to drown in your mistakes, because that's easy to do as well. But confidence is actually, you know, the core of the conviction, I think. And that's because you can get so easily derailed, and it doesn't have to be a obnoxious thing, you know. A confident woman can sometimes come across as a certain way, and it's having that grace with the confidence. That's right. Not saying that I've mastered that, but that's what I admire when I see I can recognize it a lot. It's easier to recognize it in others than it is in yourself, as well, of course. But that's emulate.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

That's absolutely true. And I think kind of what you said that also reminded me of you gotta have some sense of optimism to also build that resilience, because I think that you do that naturally. And you know, you've even alluded to in our conversation, it has happened a couple of times where you mentioned, and the person who is optimistic, they are the ones who are ready to pivot because they see like there is a greater power, there's something else, this was not meant to be. Rather than getting stuck in that, you know, being in that icky feeling and saying, Oh shoot, this didn't work, and then this is it, right? So I think there is resilience comes from that naturally. So there is a lot of goodness that comes from because optimism, I want to clarify that optimism is just being faky positive, that oh, you know, that's not what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

It's the real confused with like the but true.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Right, because a lot of people say that. Oh, I'm just and we're not talking about that, just being positive. It's really about that conviction, that belief is so strong that if I have my integrity, I'm doing this to make a positive, meaningful impact in other people's lives, right? And I'm building something that I am passionate about that gives me joy, and I'm not doing anybody any harm, then I am optimistic, right, that this will move forward in the direction it's meant to be. And there is power to that, and that's how you become resilient. That's like the straightforward way of becoming resilient. So, again, and the reason I mentioned that is I see a lot of those qualities in you when you lead, when we converse, when we did our program, when we talk about things and how gracefully and with so much humility you say, Oh, yeah, I didn't handle that, and this is how I should have handled that. And that takes that, right? That takes that resilience, that takes that inner confidence to do that. And I think you cannot have enough of that. So I just want to congratulate you again for your leadership. So much I have learned from you, just working with you and so many more women, I hope, who learn who are listening to this, learn that, feel that confidence, and know that if you have the inner conviction, you can always move forward and you will find ways to do that. So I just want to thank you again, Amy, for such an honest and thoughtful conversation today. And just to bring it all together, what I got from it, like what stands out in your journey is again the courage to trust what you see. Even when others didn't see it yet. The kind of leadership, I mean, doing it that way is not easy. It requires questioning the status quo in navigating uncertainty and staying grounded within. And that is exactly the kind of leadership we talk about here on Herbos Brain. Because when pressure arises, whether you're leading a team, whether you're building a company, or you're navigating your next chapter, the real question is not just what should I do? The deeper question is who am I choosing to be in this moment?

SPEAKER_03 49:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

That's the moment we move off autopilot, where we arrive in the present, take responsibility, and make a conscious choice. Again, Amy, thank you for sharing your conviction, the work you're doing to reshape how organizations think about supporting people at work. And for everyone listening, I'll leave you with this question. Where in your leadership are you being called to choose conviction over comfort? Ponder over that and thank you for joining us on her boss brain. Until next time, remember the most powerful leadership always begins from within. Take care, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

So that's it for today's episode of Her Boss Brain Podcast. Head on over to Apple Podcasts iTunes or wherever you listen and subscribe to the show. One lucky listener every single week that posts a review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes will win a chance in a grand prize drawing to win a twenty-five thousand dollar private VIP day with Pollovy herself. Be sure to head on over to her bossbrainpodcast.com and pick up a free copy of Pelovi's Gift and join us next time.