Episode 42: High Performance Is Costing You More Than You Think: How Pressure Impacts Leadership

You’re performing. You’re delivering. Everything looks fine on the outside… but internally, something feels off.

In this episode of Her BOSS Brain – Stress to Success, Pallavi Jain sits down with Kristi Yowell, Chief People and Culture Officer at Loyola University Maryland, to unpack what most leaders don’t talk about—the hidden cost of high performance.

With over two decades of experience in higher education and HR leadership, Kristi has worked across institutions to shape cultures where people can perform, contribute, and thrive. Her work sits at the intersection of people, performance, and purpose—making her uniquely positioned to speak to the pressures leaders face in today’s demanding environments.

Because leadership doesn’t break in big moments.
It breaks in the small, everyday moments under pressure.
Together, they explore what really happens inside leaders when expectations are high, recovery is low, and “being on” becomes the norm.

You’ll learn:

• Why high-performing leaders quietly burn out 
• The “quiet drain” that impacts clarity, energy, and decision-making 
• How pressure shifts leadership behavior—from intentional to reactive 
• Why caring, mission-driven cultures can unintentionally normalize overwork 
• The importance of disconnecting from work to sustain performance 
• Why most leadership development fails under real-world pressure 

This conversation goes beyond skills and strategy—and into the internal capacity required to lead effectively when it matters most.

If you’ve ever felt stretched, reactive, or like you’re carrying more than you should—this episode will resonate.

🎧 Hit play to learn how to sustain high performance… without losing yourself in the process.

🔗 Work With Pallavi To bring the Lead From Within experience to your organization: www.pallavi-jain.com
📩 Send your questions for future Q&A episodes: herbossbrain@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

If you're a high-achieving woman who's exhausted by stress, stuck in constant conflict, and tired of being overlooked in the exact rooms where you know you were born to lead, then this podcast is for you. So here's your host, Paula V. Jane.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Welcome to Her Boss Ring, where we explore how leaders move from stress and reactivity to clarity, intention, and impact by learning how to lead from within. Today's conversation sits at the intersection of leadership, culture, and something we don't talk about enough: what it actually takes to sustain high performance from the inside out. I'm joined by Christy Yowell, Chief People and Culture Officer and Associate Vice President for Human Resources at Loyola University, Maryland, where she leads people strategy, employee experience, and total rewards. With over two decades in higher education, Christy has worked across institutions to shape cultures where people can perform, contribute, and thrive. Her work is deeply rooted in aligning people strategy with institutional mission, which, as we know, in mission-driven environments, can be both incredibly powerful and incredibly demanding. What stands out to me about Christy's work is that it sits right at that tension point between performance and people, you know, expectations and capacity, purpose and pressure. And underneath all of that is a deeper layer: how leaders actually think, decide, and respond when pressure is high. And that's exactly where we're going to spend our time today. Welcome to this space, Christy. We are so excited to have you. Paul V, thanks so much for inviting me. I'm excited to be here. Absolutely. And I want to start on a slightly personal note. So tell me, what's something about how you lead today that your younger self would be surprised by?

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Well, you know, in my role at Loyola, I lead people in culture, as you mentioned. And a big part of that work really focuses on employee experience, how people actually experience work day to day. I think my younger self would be surprised by just how much I'm showing up and helping others be more aware about how they are showing up, not just the work we're doing. Early in my career, I really thought leadership was about having those answers, you know, being responsive, solving problems quickly, you know, and not that those things don't matter. They're incredibly important. But I've learned over time that how you show up, especially under pressure, has a bigger impact than any individual decision I or other leaders will make. Because employers don't really experience an organization, right? They experience their leaders.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

So leadership becomes so much less about being in everything and so much more about the intention and how you show up within it.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Wow. That would have not hit more personal to me than you know what you mentioned, because that's like around why I started all the work that I'm doing. So tell me, when you think about your role today, and I know you take care of a gamut of things at the university. What part of it energizes you the most and what quietly drains you?

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Yeah, isn't that a the conundrum for all of us, right? Yes. What energizes me the most? I would have to say really building environments where people can do their best work, right? Where we have clarity and alignment. And, you know, for me, you know, as I've grown older, you know, it's not just the work I do, but it's where I do the work. So I'm also going to add in that sense of purpose, right? Those really mission-driven organizations and driving that home. So especially in those organizations, those ones with strong mission statements, strong value statements, that connection to why we do the work as leaders and not just me, but anyone, right? Like that connection to the work matters so much. And it's really what helps people get and stay grounded in the bigger picture, even when that day-to-day work is so complex. I also personally think I really get energized by taking those complex things, right? Maybe it's organizational compensation, you know, thinking about the employee experience from, you know, offer to retirement, right? That whole damage, those leadership dynamics and making them more understandable and usable. So whether that's micro learning, whether it's diving into specific topics like this, whether it's having just transparent one-on-one conversations, but taking those really complex things and making them more relatable, more understandable for all parties, I really think for me, that shows up in transparent communication. You know, whether it's defining structures or explaining the why behind decisions, you know, creating tools and resources that help people navigate more confidently. I think when employees understand those things, they're more able to and really more willing to engage more fully, right? And step back. And, you know, for managers, having trust that your people will make stronger, independent decisions that you don't have to be involved with, because that sense of engagement is there. All right. So that's I could talk all day about what excites. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

That makes sense because I think, and that was one of the things I even said to you like, you know, just the way how you show up and how transparent and authentic you are, I think that definitely has an impact on the people around you and how you even receive the information that they're getting, right? So that makes total sense. So now tell us the juicy part. What really drains you?

SPEAKER_02 6:07

You know, I think for me it's like a quiet drain, right? Like I'm envisioning like that big soaking bathtub and just kind of watching the water go down the drain. I don't think it's like a big whoosh, right? It really is that quiet drain. And for me, I think it's when there's a leadership misalignment that is not being specifically addressed, right? It's one of those things that you can start to see it, right? When you think about like water on a lake, it starts as kind of that little ripple and then it just grows like a big old boat's driving by and creating the wave, right? It's so small in the beginning that it's almost easy to ignore, easy to miss. But if you continue to do it, like that wave just knocks you down, right on the shore, right? Decisions start to slow down, communication becomes more inconsistent. We're not showing up for our teams like we need to, right? People experience their work different. So I really think like putting on that HR hat, you know, what you start to see is even though it can build and be a little slower to grow, yes, that actual culture shift can be pretty quick when you look at it over a course of time when it's not addressed, right? That clarity breaks down, the culture really starts to drift, I think would be the word I'd use, right? We'll just stick with the water acronyms. You know, if you think of it drifting, it's that culture is going to change whether you intended it or not, right? Like you're framing culture by those things you do or don't do.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

What you just mentioned, I think it is so important. I want to use those words again so people really who are listening to this episode really understand. You mentioned the quiet drain, and that is so scary because you don't see it. It's not very obvious, it doesn't show up in dramatic ways, but it's like this slow drain that keeps happening. And we're gonna talk a little bit about that because I think that is so important for people to recognize that because it's not gonna get fixed by itself. You have to take a different action to actually improve that or do something about it. So that's something we'll definitely come back to. But you also mentioned HR. So let's move something specifically to the HR world. I feel like we could probably share a swap a few HR more stories here, but instead, right? But let's talk about what those experiences that we have both had actually taught us about leadership here. Because, you know, having worked in HR, especially in higher ed, for both of us, we have had a front row seat, right? Of how leadership really shows up behind the scenes and what's something you've seen. So I'm curious, what's something you have seen consistently that most people on the outside wouldn't expect?

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Well, I think something that people have heard is that employees don't leave companies, right? They leave managers. So I'm gonna say, let's free frame that just a little bit. You know, what I've consistently seen is that employees don't experience an organization, they experience their leaders, right? And what gets amplified, and that really gets amplified when it's under pressure, right? That microscope test of if it's good under pressure, it's gonna look good. If it's not great, when you magnify that, you're gonna see even more cracks and fractures, right? So when things get hard, that leadership behavior becomes the culture, right? That's that drift. It's either going to drift in a positive direction or a negative direction. So it's not the policies or the values or the things we have on paper or nicely printed on our websites, right? It's really how are your leaders communicating? You know, how quickly do they respond? What do they prioritize? Even what do they avoid? Right. Like all of those things send a really intentional message. And when leaders are overwhelmed or constantly on, right? Like that constant on, you know, they find themselves reacting instead of responding. And that shows up like we talked about before, and lacks of clarity and inconsistency and that disconnection. And really the gosh, I'm gonna keep the water references going, right? That downstream effect, right, of those day-to-day behaviors really start shaping that employee and the experience and not always in a way we want, right? It can be really subtle until it's not, right? And then it looks like burnout or separation or this makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

And I will again take what you just said, the day-to-day moments. So something I've often noticed in HR too, especially, you know, in high-performing academic environments, is leadership doesn't usually break in obvious moments. It actually breaks in those ordinary moments, those day-to-day moments under pressure. And you know, as you're talking about the water analogy, I'm thinking of, and that's how it felt when I was in that moment, is like, you know, you remember that feeling of flight cockpit during turbulence, and you're in there, but from the outside, from the passenger view, everything looks controlled. You can't even see it, right? Pilots are calm, systems are functioning, and the plane is still moving in the right direction. So, but internally, what determines whether that flight stays stable isn't the turbulence itself. It's whether the pilots are coordinated, whether they are communicating, whether they are regulated and clear in their response, right? Under stress. So, in organizations like you're saying, I have noticed the same thing. It's very similar because on the outside, you see decisions, you see meetings, you see strategy execution, but behind the scenes, what actually determines the quality of leadership is kind of what you were saying is that can the leader stay internally steady when information is incomplete? Can they regulate when tension rises? And how you're saying like it impacts their communication, how they're making decisions. And are they able to shift into, you know, are they actually shifting into reactivity? So, like, are they speeding up decisions? Are they narrowing their own perspective or defaulting to old patterns? And what's interesting in HRI, I believe, is you start seeing those patterns, and it's really lack of competence or lack of intention, it's really the loss of internal alignment. You've used this word a few times, and I completely agree with you. It's really the loss of that internal alignment in high pressure environments that quietly shapes those real outcomes, those real impact that happens. And most people outside the system, you know, they just assume leadership issues are about strategy and competence and capability. But you and I both know it, you know, it's something else that that happens, and it's really starting within them. So I'm curious, first of all, if that resonates with what you have seen in your own experience, and where do you see high-performing leaders quietly struggling the most right now?

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Yes, right. Like you asked the question, and I can instantly see it. One word comes to mind when you ask me that, and it's sustainability. Right? Like it almost seems counterintuitive, but I really believe that some of the strongest cultures are also the most vulnerable because the leaders care so much. Right? That sounds crazy to say that you become vulnerable because you care so much, right? We all want to work for institutions where we care about the work we're doing, and we all want to work with people that are engaged and committed, but at some point, right, like that care turns into something not positive. So where is it, right? Like, what is that line of like where it turns from something good to where it doesn't? Yeah. So when you think of these leaders, right, and we ask questions to gauge this in interviews, right? All these things. No, these are capable, committed people, right? They care about the mission, they care about the work, they want to help, they willingly take on more, they stay highly responsive, they stay committed to doing excellent work, they keep that plane moving forward, right? And for a while, it really works well, right? So people keep doing it, but then over time, that level of intensity just becomes the expectation, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Like a drain that you were talking about, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:30

That that starts to happen. Right. Like it's no longer this, right? To use your plane analogy, it's no longer this temporary period of turbulence that we're doing something different through. Now it just becomes the expected ride, right? So if you're not careful, that just becomes the expectation and the new baseline for everybody, the leader and their employees. And because performance probably still looks strong for a while, the strain isn't always immediately visible.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

So what you start to see is people pushing through, right? Doing it for the greater good, putting on that brave face, all while unintentionally normalizing that new level of output as that baseline. And for me, that's really where that shift that we were talking about happens, right? And you really got to be aware of it to recognize when it's happening. So rest or boundaries, start feeling like underperformance, right? Which is crazy. Like we all say there's positives and disconnecting and you know, normalizing a pace, but burnout doesn't just affect the leader either, right? Like you have that burnout and it starts to spread throughout the organization and it surprises people because performance may still look strong. People are still delivering, leaders are still leading. But underneath, you start seeing those ripples and they start gaining some momentum behind them. And you start seeing things like decision fatigue or you know, people being less thoughtful in their communications, you know, shorter, less empathetic, leaders having less capacity to really be present with their teams. And exhaustion really takes over well-being. And in time, that like erodes trust and connection.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

I mean, it's really what you said, right? So it's like that emergency was supposed to stay for one or two days. Now it's emergency all the time. And you can't sustain that, right? It's just not possible as human beings. And yeah, and you know, you mentioned decision fatigue. It's interesting because I actually did, I don't remember, there was an episode I did specifically for decision fatigue because it shows up so often in today's work cultures, starting from you know, professionals to managers to actually leaders who are in the midst of it and they're making all these high-stake decisions and they're completely exhausted. So, what do organizations think? What would be the quality of their decisions at the end of the day when they're doing it? You know, when their internal state is like that, and it's not their fault because they just don't get any recovery. And so it brings me to also, you mentioned, you know, leaders care so much. So we see that definitely, you know, in higher ed, where there's this caring culture and mission-driven organizations, people care deeply. But where does that start to become a liability, right? Because does purpose sometimes justify that overwork or emotional burnout? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

No, right? And teams, you know, we've all heard like the leader that says, take care of yourself. Yeah. But then sending emails at two in the morning or on the weekends or on vacation, right? Like they never stop. And people pick up on that, right? Like one, that leader is going to, at some point, that's going to catch up with them, but at their team, right? It's what you said, right? It starts shifting that baseline. So leaders really need to take time off and be clear about it, you know, not give in to that immediate response to everything. And let's be honest, like our world doesn't make it easier, right? Like we're probably battling three or four things right now, right? It's a Teams message, it's an email, it's a phone ringing, it's a text message, right? And they could all be happening simultaneously while somebody's knocking on your door, right? It's so overstimulating that you have to be really intentional about stepping away from it and not like truly prioritizing what needs me now and what can wait a couple hours, right? It's funny. And my team, we were talking the other day. Like, do you remember the days of work where if you left at five o'clock, yeah, you would get up and then to get you, they were calling like your home landline phone, you know, and it was truly like the building's on fire, right? They weren't going to call about an email, they didn't even know the email was there, right? Like the world has just changed. And while there's some amazing things that have come with that, it's so easy to just always be on.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Yeah, and I think it's also what you said, what we're also rewarding because it's the instant everything, it's expectations, right? It's like how you've set the expectations. So if you're always replying back within 10 to 15 minutes, now if you don't respond for two hours, people think something is wrong. Right. So I think it's really being intentional of what those boundaries are, what those parameters are that you're defining for yourself. And then you're also, you know, people who are reporting to you as a leader, they are looking up to you. You are kind of the role builder or the trendsetter, or you know, you're bringing what kind of expectations because then they're imagining, oh, if I have to be a leader, that's the expectations. And the truth is, you know, I've shared this before in this space, but you know, one in five Gen Z only are looking to be in a leadership role. And that's a problem because we're setting such a bad example. I mean, you and I kind of in that mix, we are trying to be intentional about it, but it's hard because that's how the systems and the leaders and you know the rhetoric is kind of going in the organization. So I think it's very important. You know what?

SPEAKER_02 20:18

You made me think of something else. And, you know, I think the other thing that we never talk enough about at leaders is well, those things all sound really great, like, right? Like, don't get sucked in, take the breaks, disconnect. We also know there's very real times where we all just have to like put our heads down and you just have to get through it.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Right. So I think most of us listening to your podcast at this point were working and very clearly remember COVID, right? And for so many of us, the work just didn't end. It was a constant evolution of data and deciphering and communicating, you know. But for many others of us, maybe it was something like a workday implementation, right? Or something with like these crazy deadlines and massive amounts of data and decision making, or maybe it's even something you're battling, you know, maybe you're going through just a messy personal time, right? And it's busy at work and it's busy at home, and it's just, you gotta get through it, but it's just this point. And I think that's another one where for me, that reality, like I think we also do leaders a disservice sometimes by acting like those things don't happen because they do, right? We've all had that thing where it's like, my kid has this thing going on, and the doctor's office is only open till five, and you can't get them unless you sit on hold for three hours. I just have to be on hold for three hours to get this taken care of, right? They happen. And that's the reality. Yeah. Right. So in those moments, I think what has worked for me, and not perfectly, but I think it's made me a better leader than what I was in my younger years, is just again going back to like transparency. And not, you know, I was just gonna say that how much I tell my team might vary, right? But just owning it and saying something to your team, like things are going to be messy for the next month, for the next semester, for the next week, for today, whatever it is. Like, I'm not my best self today. I'm dealing with something. I'm going to get through it. I'm okay. Or ask for help if you need it. But say, like, you're going to see me doing things at weird hours because there's not enough hours in the day for me to get through this. I don't want anyone else to feel like this is expectation setting. It's not. I just have to get through this so we can get back to a baseline, right? And not that like the modeling doesn't matter, but some points I think just saying it, I know I'm not modeling what I want or expect to be or want from you. And I want you to hear it, right? Like that carries a lot of weight.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

This is so important. And honestly, what you just said, in my opinion, that is modeling. You are modeling permission. You are modeling that, you know, in this moment, I am not my hundred percent. And I think it's so interesting that I don't know why we have been taught that leaders have to show that they have it all under control because that's the expectation then we're putting on the younger generation, on people who are, you know, in our teams, because none of us have everything under control all the time. We have these moments, and you know, it's really about, I'm gonna bring back to that alignment thing that you mentioned, it's really about that inner alignment. That an inner alignment doesn't mean that one is important than the other, it just means to have that intention and be conscious of in this moment, the personal situation is more urgent than the professional, or in this moment, this team project is more important than something else. And that's really what inner alignment is. There is no work-life balance, work-life integration. I mean, we've used thrown, thrown these words, and that's fine. But really, it's about that inner alignment of knowing what is it that truly matters in this moment that needs my more attention, that needs my, you know, me being more conscious of it and openly communicating that to the people you're working with, at least, you know. And I think there's so much wisdom in that.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Yeah, and we see it in our own personal lives too, right? Like just recently, you know, I was home in the evening with my husband. He's like, let's sit down and watch this show. And I was not paying attention. And like he knew it. Like he was annoyed at like how distracted I was, and like, I'm on my phone and I'm like staring off into space. And at one point he's like, Are you mad at me? Like, did I do something? And I was like, No, it was like, it's just such a busy week for me. I'm like, and tomorrow was like the peak of it, right? I'm like, tomorrow is such a day that it's just running through my head. And every time I try to think of something else, I'm thinking of a million things I need to do or need to say or need to remember. It was like, I'm sorry, but like you're right. Like in that moment, I didn't say to him, like, that's the priority, not you, right? But it certainly was over the TV show we were watching. I'll be better tomorrow. Like, just give me the night, right? Like tonight, I'm just I'm distracted and it's just my reality. Tomorrow, the worst of it will be behind me. And that was all it took for him to be like, okay, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Like, see you tomorrow then. Like you said, it's I think when you're so clear inside, yeah, and then you know what your priorities are and what is it that matters. I think half of the times we are stuck in our own kind of dialogue. Oh, why am I doing that? I'm so bad. We start all this nonsensical thing that we do in our head, and that keeps us from actually being honest in that moment. Yeah, and you know, it there's just so much grace to that. So, you know, we've been talking about this, and you and I definitely aligned with a lot of these things from how we show up and how we see leaders should be showing up. So we both have also, you know, when I was an HR leader and now you, we invest a lot in developing our leaders, developing our managers, doing a ton of you know work on those, and especially in these institutions. But clearly we know there is something we're falling short. So, where do you think it's falling short?

SPEAKER_02 26:18

You know, I think companies as a whole spend so much time in the development space, but they often fall short on really leadership, right? Like even differentiating management versus leadership. You know, we spend a lot more time on the management skills because they're more operational, they're more tactical, right? But that leadership space, I think we need to do more. So, not that management training isn't important, right? It's the what, it's the how to run meetings, how to manage performance, how to give feedback. Those things are all important, but leadership or you know, that's more of the what, you know, leadership is really the how, right? Like, how are you going to do those things? How do you show up? How do you communicate? Not just what words are you saying. That's right. You know, how do you navigate pressure? And that's really where I think organizations often don't spend enough time. We often assume that if someone knows what to do, they'll be able to do it efficiently, right? We've all heard things like who gets promoted? You get promoted for being really great in that job, and then we put you into a completely different one and are surprised when maybe there's some gaps, right? This is it, right? This is the thing we're talking about because most leadership challenges aren't knowledge, they're behavior, right? Especially under pressure, right? When things get amplified. That's why, right, what do those pilots do? You overpractice for the worst case scenario, so it's more muscle memory. Do we do that enough with leaders? I would argue not, right? And not just stress or conflict or uncertainty, but really thinking about leadership from everyone, right? I'm a big believer that everyone has a leadership role, even as an individual contributor, right? It's not about saying that.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Thank you for saying that, because half of the times I have to actually make people understand when I'm talking to these organizations that when I'm talking leaders, I don't mean leaders, leaders who are like talking about everybody is a leader in the organization because what they're doing, either they're leading themselves or they're communicating, collaborating with other teams. It's all self-leadership. It's all how you're showing up for yourself and for those around you. And it matters.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah. And for a place like this, right? It's how are you showing up? And what do the students see? What does the community see? What do their families see? If you're in a hospital, what do the patients see? What are your right? Like we're all leading from whatever role we're in. We're not talking about the organizational structure here. So it's really, do all of us know how to operate and do those things so that when the pressure kicks in, we're deferring to good behaviors, intentional behaviors, and not bad ones, because we haven't developed the time to really develop the thing we want, right? So for me, it's not just more training, it's really that intentional development, right? That awareness and intentionality, not just capability.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

That's like my biggest pain point when I'm working with organizations and I hear this so often. Because the problem is leadership doesn't happen in these training rooms where we are teaching them theory. Like you said, we need to teach them how to run an effective meeting. That's all important. But if we don't teach them this inner leadership, then in those moments, they're not going to even apply what you taught them because they're not even in control of what's happening. They're just, you know, frazzled or reactive or whatever is unfolding. So we have talked about how these leadership challenges, right, that is actually a reflection of what's happening internally for the reader. Right. So at what point in your perspective does high performance stop being sustainable? And how can leaders recognize that line before they have already crossed it?

SPEAKER_02 30:18

You know, I think one of the ways we really recognize the line is by paying attention to how we're managing. And all right, I'm gonna give you a different analogy here, right? So think of just addition and subtraction, right? Generally, I'm going to say we all find it easier to add than subtract. What do I mean by that? If we go shopping, it's easy to fill up your cart and buy more. It's hard to go home and purge your pantry or purge your clothes closet, right? It's really easy to add. The subtraction takes a lot more intentionality and effort. So similarly, I have found that it's really easy for organizations to add new initiatives, new programs, another priority. It's much harder to take that step back and ask, you know, what can or should we stop doing? What should we do less of? What should we do differently? And that's really where I think sustainability starts to break down because we just keep layering more and more on without creating space for it. Right. My husband would say, my closet is a prime example of that. I'm just shoving more stuff in and it is max capacity.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Get discharged.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Right? So, but again, that closet is like an analogy for the workplace, right? We all do this, we've seen it. So for me, this is where like that intentional leadership really matters. And it's about creating space for those conversations and being willing to answer those hard questions. It also requires, though, accountability, because this, much like before, when we said like be honest with your team when you're not leading from your best self, I think this is one of those things too, right? Like this is so much easier to do in theory than it is in practice. And for me, part of it is being open to feedback, both feedback from your own leadership, and even more importantly, I'd argue, your team, because they are the ones that can let you know when that balance isn't right, maybe before you even recognize it. So that intentional kind of two-way conversation and accountability really helps reinforce that sustainability isn't just a thing we say, right? They're not just words on a paper. They're really something we actively manage through our decisions and our behaviors. So if we're never willing to subtract, we're never willing to listen to what other people have to say to us, we're definitely going to cross that line before we realize it or without even realizing it. But the minute you open yourself up to that feedback and accountability checks, right? Like my husband having the okay in our relationship to say, you don't seem fully present tonight. And me being able to say, thank you, and you're right, right? Like I could have said, no, I'm sorry. Let me put the phone down. It's very easy to do that. In that moment, I said, You're right, I'm not. Let me tell you a little bit about what's going on, and I'll be back to fully present on you tomorrow. Right. It was just owning that I was open to that feedback in the moment and then telling them where I was with it. It's not always what they want to hear, right? But he appreciated it. I'm sure he didn't love it, but he accepted it, right? Tonight, I'm not her priority. Tomorrow, I can be. Right. And it was so much better than just feeling ignored, right? It gave a direction. I think that really holds true in the workplace. Like, I want to hear from you. I have five minutes right now, or I have two hours tomorrow. Do you need the five minutes or can it wait? It can wait. And thank you for giving me the time, right? Like you're creating that space and really giving someone else that honest answer of what do you need? And let's talk about where that'll fit in.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

I love that. I love that. And like you said, it's all about that intentionality. And I love your analogy of subtraction. So I have a reflection moment for all our listeners because that this just reminded me of a question that I can pose for them, which will help them reflect and actually subtract something from their life that's not working. So, for all my listeners, if you are an HR or a people manager listening or just a manager just striving, you know, in your work, what's one thing that you have normalized in your organization or in your routine that, if you're honest, isn't actually working? Okay. And I want you to listen to Christy and subtract that from your life today. And I want you to share your answers with us in the comments on the platform you're listening. Okay, let's do this together. And while you're doing that, I want to pose the next question to Christy is what is the importance? And you and I have discussed this, but I think it's important to also mention this as leaders that what is the importance of disconnecting from the work?

SPEAKER_02 35:22

I can't even say like how essential I think it is to effective leadership, right? Most of us are not doing that these days. I know. And I think leadership is at an all-time ineffectiveness because of it. I think they're directly correlated. Leaders need space, right? Like what separates leadership from management or operations? It's the capacity, right? Like, if you don't have the dedicated space and time to think and reflect and reset and do things like after action reviews, right? Otherwise, everything becomes reactive, right? You're constantly reacting. So, you know, it's creating those spaces so that we can model the things we want, communicate the things we want. And we can't tell our people to disconnect if every action that we take says, I really don't mean it, never disconnect, right? So I think it's so important for our own well-being, for the well-being of others, and to really lead effectively and have a chance to step back and think about where we're going instead of just acting in the moment every minute of the day.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Yes. No, that makes perfect sense. And I want to just add a quick neuroscience perspective to that for our listeners. So your brain doesn't fully reset unless there is real psychological detachment from work. It's real. And Gallup's workplace research reinforces that burnout is less about doing too much in a moment and more about never fully recovering between demands. Okay. Over time, that compounds into reduced clarity, energy, decision quality, kind of what Christy was mentioning with this quiet drain that starts to happen. And a few weeks earlier, if you all remember, we discussed the problem of pressure without recovery with even Ebony Travis, who is the chief wellness officer, and how important recovery is. So I just want you to pause, you know, during your day, at least once or twice in the day, and really think about are you really intentionally crafting that recovery time in your week? And if you don't intentionally do that, if you don't put it on the calendar, at least for me, it doesn't happen because that's how we lived our lives today. So you have to be intentional. Don't think, okay, let me finish this and then I'll get back to it and I'll figure it out. It will never happen, right? So I just want to also point this out. And now this also brings me to the point that we know what we are doing, all of us currently as leaders, managers, professionals, is not working somewhere. And if we know that these patterns start early, right, then this isn't just an organizational issue. It's a pipeline issue. So if students are the future workforce, right, what leadership skills are we not equipping them with today?

SPEAKER_02 38:12

I would say self-leadership, right? Like we have students that are well prepared academically.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Not always well prepared to manage themselves in high pressure environments, right? Particularly when you think of the academic models and not a default to academic models, right? I work in one, I believe strongly in this mission. But these are young adults, right? Like they're going from a home environment where you've got your parents' that support, and we're bridging them for adulthood. So, you know, academic models in general come with a lot of structural support, right? So that you don't fail, right? But within that, how do you then intentionally create those high pressure environments so they know how to operate in them? Right. And not that it all has to be like, well, let them fail. No, that's not what I'm saying, right? But how do you do things like discuss? How do you set boundaries with a roommate, with a teacher, with your parents, with an employer? Right? How do you manage your energy? Do you even know when you're more energized? Are you a morning person or a night person? Have you ever thought about it? How's that compatible with the people around you? Have you talked about it? You know, how do you navigate ambiguity? You know, I will say I do some graduate level work. And even when I work with grad students or even programs here at Loyola with our undergrad students, right? I see these conversations coming about. I even see this, you know, talking with my own college-age young adult children, right? Of like, yes, I'm not gonna leave you out to dry, but I'm not gonna answer it for you either, right? Like making them at least talk through before we solve it. Like, what do you think we should do in this moment? Tell me more about that conflict. What is it? Right. Like just helping develop those brain strategies so that you've thought through, you've processed it. It's not just arms up in the air and someone else solve it for me or ignore it. You know, so many of the things, these important skills help with prioritization, right? Having in the workplace, right? Like asking a supervisor what's the priority out of these three things? You know, what's the deadline with this? I heard you ask me for this report. Is this something you need today? Or is it something you need Friday? Right. I've seen so many people, you know, even stress themselves out because they think that they're good at something. It's like you need it in the next 20 minutes. It's like everything is urgent. Right? Yeah, everything becomes urgent. Yeah, right. So asking things about that, or as new priorities come down the pike, right? Because we know people like dad, right? So you add things in and we had a plan, and now that plan's out the window. That's what we need to ask and say, where does this new thing fit in in the priority list? No, that makes sense. I think there's a lot of opportunity to do that, even with students, as they're balancing like social and academic and competing classes and assignments, and right, kind of walking them through that. Like, you know, even asking a student, like, what questions do you have about the syllabus? None. Here's a question you should have asked me, right? Like helping them think about what are to think that way.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Yeah, this makes so much sense. And it's interesting. Like, I'm having some of these conversations with my middle schoolers at moment. It's very interesting, right? How you build that capacity into how they think and how they operate. But what would it look like as a structured self-leadership program or teaching them before they enter a high pressure environment? Do you think that's something that's really gonna help them in these situations? Because, you know, you and I were talking the other day, and we are like unlearning and relearning a lot of things now, after all these years of operating in this environment and what's not working. So what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Yeah, I've seen a subtle shift, right? It's a ripple. It's not, you know, we're not talking waves at this point. But for example, here at Loyola, we have a first-year program, we call it our Messina program, but it supplements the academics, right? So we've got cohorts of groups and we do it in cohorts so that you're not starting over the conversation every time, right? We know in the workplace, like the conversations get deeper when some of those initial hi, how are you's are gone.

SPEAKER_03 42:27

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Right. So cohorts allow the conversations to build and get a little deeper over time. We meet with these students, you know, over the course of their first year, and we have conversations that are in depth, right? It might be like, tell me about a time you had a conflict. What did you do and how did it go? Right. And they might say, Well, I ignored it until we blew up, and then the RA showed up at the dorm, and then there was a fight, right? And how might that have gone differently? Like, right now that you can think on it, right? So we'll talk through things like that. And again, entry level, but a lot of these things of like, well, okay, so we waited till we hit the breaking point, right? Like, did you notice signs earlier? And could the conversation have been different if you started it earlier? Did you communicate what your needs were and why they were your needs, or did you just yell, stop it, right? Like talking about those things. That's very nice. But they're not obvious things that we would all do. So that's right. We talk about that programmatically here. I'm also involved with a nonprofit board, and we do a lot of those kind of things with our middle and high school students, like you said. Wonderful. Just supplementing the academic with more of those behavioral things, giving scenarios and saying, let's walk through this.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Honestly, I mean, those are the real skills, the real human skills that they would need, you know, to be successful in life, whether it's, you know, starting their own business, whether doing a job, you know, however, and even in personal situations, personal relationships. So that's incredible that you have started. All these initiatives. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

You know, and it's one of those things, like these are foundational skills, right? Like this is the foundation the house is built on.

unknown 44:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

We don't treat them that way, right? We assume that because they're foundational, everyone is like born with them, I guess. Right? Like, but you still like when you build a house, you have to still put the footers in. You can't just assume that like they're magically going to show up overnight.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

So true.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

So true.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

So knowing you, you know, I have found you to be deeply centered, empathetic, and really present person, at least whenever I have interacted with you. So what have you had to learn? You know, sometimes the hard way about protecting your own well-being while still showing up as a leader of such an authentic leader you are for others.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

I would say that I have learned protecting my well-being isn't separate from being an effective leader, right? It's not there's this bucket and there's this bucket. It's actually what allows me to show up, I think, fairly consistently. One of my personal early signals, right? So when I know things aren't going well because they don't always go well, right? Like that's human and that's life.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

When everything starts to feel equally urgent, right? When everything is a priority one, it's usually my sign that I need to step back and reprioritize. And that does it for me, like that reprioritizing might be like turning off my cell phone and turning off the radio on my commute home, right? And being like, I'm offline for the next hour, no one can call me. Like it's my headspace to think. It might be my husband might go to bed and I might stay up for another hour. I might take a walk, right? I might do something. It's not always like I'm gonna block my afternoon during the workday and think about it. That's not always real, right? But you can find time. It might be 10 minutes in the shower, it might be 30 minutes on a commute, it might be a walk after dinner, right? Like you can find the time and just being intentional about where you're going to find the time and what you're going to do with it can really help you step back and reprioritize.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

This is so important. And I think what you said is this is right again about that intentionality and that awareness, right? Is what most leaders skip. It's like creating that pause for that awareness to show up, and they don't realize they are drifted until they've already impacted how they show up. So this makes total sense to me. And Christy, I can keep going with you. And but as I listen to this conversation, what stands out is this that so much of what we call leadership challenges aren't actually about capability. They're about inner capacity. You know, capacity to think clearly under pressure, capacity to regulate in the moment, capacity to even pause and assess what's really going on and to make decisions, not from that reactive place, but from intention, right? And in environments like higher education, where the mission is meaningful, where the work is so purposeful, we can really get lost and the expectations can get really high. And that capacity gets tested every single day. So I really want to close with this that if a leader is listening right now, doing meaningful work or caring a lot, performing at a high level, what's one shift you can make to sustain that performance without losing yourself in the process? Right? That's where the real momentum kicks in. That's where you bring that intentionality and then awareness. So I just want to thank you again for this insightful conversation. It's just always such a pleasure to talk to you. So many nuggets and great real wisdom that people can use. And it's human, it's real, and it's authentic, which is who you are. So thank you again. Thank you. Absolutely. And for all our listeners, I just want you to remember that sustainable leadership isn't about doing more or even doing less. It's about leading from a different place internally, especially in the moments that matter most. And when we learn how to do that, it doesn't just change how we perform, it changes how we experience the work altogether and how others experience us, right? Because at the end of the day, leadership is not defined by what we know in calm moments. It's defined by how we think, perceive, and respond when pressure and change show up. And that's exactly the work we do, helping leaders build the internal capacity to lead from within, especially when it matters most. So reach out to us if you would like to learn more using the links in the show notes. Reach out to Christy on LinkedIn. She's doing amazing work at Loyola University. And please, everyone, take care and have a wonderful week.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

So that's it for today's episode of her boss brain podcast. Head on over to Apple Podcasts iTunes or wherever you listen and subscribe to the show. One lucky listener every single week that posts a review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes will win a chance in a grand prize drawing to win a twenty-five thousand dollar private VIP day with Pollovy herself. Be sure to head on over to her bossbrainpodcast.com and pick up a free copy of Pullovy's Gift and join us next time.