EP 33 - You’re Investing Emotional Capital

In this episode of the Off Grid Down Under Podcast, we sit down with Stuart Lamont, CEO of the Caravan Industry Association of Australia (CIAA), to unpack the standards shaping the Australian caravan industry.

We dive deep into RVMAP (Recreational Vehicle Manufacturing Accreditation Program), salesperson accreditation, and what these actually mean for everyday buyers. If you’re thinking about buying a caravan—or already own one—this conversation could save you from making costly mistakes.

We also explore the future of the industry, the post-COVID boom, and why Stuart believes the caravan sector remains “remarkably resilient.”

MDC is proudly RVMAP accredited, and in this episode, we break down why that matters when comparing brands.

In this episode, we cover:

– What the CIAA actually does

– The truth about RVMAP and why it matters

– Risks of buying a non-accredited caravan

– Salesperson accreditation and raising industry standards

– Common mistakes caravan buyers make

– Where the Australian caravan industry is heading

If you’re serious about caravanning, this is a must-watch.

🔗 Consumer & Industry Websites

Let’s Go Caravan & Camping (consumer site)

https://www.letsgocaravanandcamping.com.au

– Tips, safety info, travel inspiration, competitions, and general consumer resources

Caravan Industry Statistics (data & research library)

https://www.caravanstats.com.au

– Industry data, research, and reports (some content subscription-based)

Escape with Confidence

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

What does a manufacturer actually have to go through to achieve R V Map accreditation?

SPEAKER_00 0:04

It's not a technical flick. Um and yeah, Vaughan, I think you um you you'll you'll admit it it's still a process. You thought at the end of the day, I'll just pay my money and and sign the form.

SPEAKER_04 0:12

But uh I think as a business owner who's been here for 20 years now, uh what role has I guess the industries caravan industry association had in your growth of the MDC business?

SPEAKER_02 0:25

When you're first starting out, you just don't know what you don't know. You know, there's a certain way you need to go build a caravan.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

I'm constantly going into the international market and saying no other um international um market builds, designs um product like the Australian market. Um, because our consumers use the product like no other consumer uses it around the world. So we have to be world best class. Um yeah, we are one team. Um yeah, we all have a different role to play as far as that's concerned, but that's the only way that we succeed.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Hello everybody, and welcome to another edition of the Off Grid Down Under Podcast brought to you by MDC. I'm your host, I'm Sam. I'm joined here with Vaughan Heinley, Managing Director of MDC.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Thanks for having me back, Sam. Geez, I tell you what, we are really moving up in the industry. We're bringing the big wigs in. We've got some special guests. We do.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

So our special today. Wayne Chenivers. Thank you. Sorry to back a special guest. Thank you for having me back, Sam.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Welcome, Wayne.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

And definitely a special guest, uh, the CEO of the Caravanning Industry Association of Australia, Mr. Stuart Lamont.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Sam, great to be here.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

Welcome. Thank you for coming up today. We're uh up in our Kabulcha showroom, so thanks for taking the time and driving up the highway, all of yeah, 20 minutes for you, which was nice and convenient. That's great. It's great to have you on board. Stuart, there's a lot going on in the industry, a lot going on in the economic climates at the moment. Um, I think this is a really timely opportunity to have you on board and speak about, I guess, the caravaning world as you know, the CEO of the association to kind of give us some insights that you're seeing, not just from an NBC perspective, but you know, as industry as a whole, you get to see everything, you know, import markets, locally made stuff, consumer behaviours, the performance of shows and expos and things like that. So we'd like to dive into that a little bit today and um just hear about yeah, hear things from your perspective. So before we kick in, you've been in the role for quite a while. Just tell us a bit about yourself and and your role and what that involves.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Yeah, I think um I've I've been a traveller at heart for uh for as long as I can remember. Um and uh I think caravan and camping is in my DNA. When I first moved out of home, um I moved into a caravan in the backyard. You know, that was the first step of independence. Um, I think my first trip away with um my first girlfriend was in a tent and uh in a in a campground. Um and so you know it you know I've got these massively fond memories of you know every holiday was you know down on the creek bed and and with a group of families um caravaning camping and and you know taking beer out of the um out of the river because that was our natural fridge. Yeah, it was it was shooting rabbits and and um um yeah playing with sticks and all the things that nowadays I think um you know kids miss out on. So you know I I think that's the great thing that caravan camping does. It allows you know this this great connection with with the ability you know to to stay with family and friends, um, you know, to connect together, to you know to get out of your your normal rum-dum drum uh um experiences, this this concept of escapism, but you know, I I think we've missed out on a little bit of that. Um yeah, and and certainly applaud the federal government when you look at um the social media ban for um under 16s and you think, well, okay, so how does that impact it? Actually means that you know kids and or or parents are now looking for what I do with my kids and you know this concept of getting out and playing and socializing, no better way to do that than caravanic camping.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

So tell us about your time in the association. You've been part of that for quite a while. What does that involve?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah, nearly 20 years, and and and I started um out on the road, um, you know, talking to industry businesses and and uh finding out in terms of you know how we could help them and and you know what were their pain points. And you know, that's that's gravitated to you know now being the CEO for some 17 odd years. Um I think you know what it what it does do is you know not too dissimilar as as trends have changed in in product innovation and and and development, you know, the way the consumers look at our product, you know, we ourselves have had to um adjust and pivot and made sure in terms of our association was um you know relevant and contemporary to you know where the market needed to be. And and so you know one of the critical things that we did some 10 years ago was actually merged all the national organizations um you know into one to create a single peak national body, and and what that allowed us to do was um expand the offering in terms of from an industry perspective. Um we far better from a research perspective, understanding in terms of where the trends are. We're far more powerful in international engagement, um, being able to connect with our international colleagues to find out in terms of what was happening out there. Um lifestyle marketing continues to be an incredibly important um component of what we do. Um not only do we want to grow the market with new people coming through the pipeline and getting them to understand what the curve and camping industry is all about, but also to make sure that those people already in market use their product more often. The more they use it, um the more they love it, the more they um you know see the latest trends and want to upgrade, the more they want new accessories, or more they break it and want to upgrade. So it's actually really important that we make sure that we not only talk to new people, but also those people already in market.

SPEAKER_04 5:37

So what does that what does that look like, I guess, from a specific role and its its role as I guess a governing body in some respects to the layman? I guess why does the association exist and what's its primary purpose?

SPEAKER_00 5:54

I think the purpose is we want a really um safe, um uh compliant and sustainable Australian caravanic camping industry. We we are part of an industry which is in Australian's DNA. You know, if when I was growing up, um, you know, you went to school, um, you got a job, you got married, you know, you you worked for 40 years and then you retired and and travelled around the country in your in your caravan. So it's got a high amount of social equity. Um, and uh what we're trying to do is make sure that um our consumers receive safe um products that they can um use, that we can continue to be a value and affordable holiday uh proposition, you know, that we can get our consumers you know out into the regions, which assist in terms of a whole range of small communities. Um and you know, I think it's about making sure that our voices heard uh in the likes of Canberra. Um many MPs and senators actually go cover it in camping, but they don't understand that we're a$27 billion industry in its own right. So making sure that we are part of the, you know, a part of the noise, part of the narrative in terms of government policy decisions. Um and you know, uh also along the lines of our safe and compliance, we want to make sure that our products are very best in market. Um I'm constantly going into the international market and saying that you know no other um international um market builds, designs product like the Australian market because our consumers use the product like no other consumer uses it around the world. So we have to be world best class and we need to play a role in that.

SPEAKER_04 7:30

I I wanted to touch on that. Uh the international connection, because I didn't really think about it from that perspective. Just tell us a bit about what that involves. Are you looking from an education point of view to see what other countries are doing, or uh are we sort of viewed as a a market leader in that RV kind of space, or what what what happens from an international perspective?

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Yeah, very much um uh there is uh a big global three, so to speak. Um yeah, you look at the European market, but predominantly led by by um Germany, you know, they're very strong in that particular place. Um you look at obviously the US market and you know, incorporating terms of uh of what Canada are doing, and then you look at Australia, and um all of us have um you know different products. Um we have um you know different issues that you know raise the head at a particular point in time, but you know what we find is what has happened in Australia ultimately ends up internationally and and vice versa. So yeah, it's really important that I meet with my international heads uh and we try and do it about every six weeks. Um just to understand where the markets are, where the market's trending, you know, what's happening from a demographic perspective, um, how they are changing uh or adapting in terms of their marketing um and also what potential regulatory or or technology issues or opportunities are coming down the pipeline.

SPEAKER_04 8:42

What what do those kind of look like? Because obviously if we break it down, Europe, what are they kind of more motorhomes, self-contained motorhomes, the US, are they more the fifth-wheel kind of trailers, or what does the US market look like in person?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Not so much. I mean, you know, Germany or or Europe generally is a more self-motorised product. Um and you know, there there is a growing trend towards motorised still. Um they are struggling in terms of some of the toad product, and they're seeing a fall-off uh of demand for that at the moment. Um, in terms of the US market, uh, as much as uh that the film industry portrays it as being these very large A-class motorhomes and what have you, um, they're very much a trailer market and not too dissimilar to what we see in Australia, with give or take 90% of the product on the road being trailers or caravans and 10% being the self self-motorised product. Obviously slightly bigger numbers, but if you look at um you know RVs as a percentage of population, um, yeah, we're doing incredibly well and and certainly exceeding in terms of where you know both of those markets are at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 9:44

And what are some of the I guess repeat issues, well not issues, but uh discussion points that come up? Obviously, I'd imagine road safety, compliance in manufacturing, things like that. Are they are they as big in the US and European markets as they are here?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Oh, look, they're important. Um but you know what we're seeing is you know regulator involvement is is um always tough in all markets. You've got an Australian government who who wants to harmonise to international standards, and so you know we need to see what's happening in Europe, and a lot of our standards are being um drawn down from Europe. So particularly um at the moment, it's about emissions. Um it's about you know driver licenses. You know, we're obviously in a privileged position um over both the Americans and the Germans in terms of of what we can tow under the current licensing regime. So you know the the worst thing that can happen as far as we're concerned is is um dash cam footage of sadly very small number of highway footages, which look incredibly spectacular, but are not the norm. And then you get all the ducood that's coming out calling for for licensing as opposed to you know what we think is a far better model around education. So um understanding in terms of how that impacts markets um overseas, um, you know, you look at you know product designs. Um there's a big push um in Europe at the moment around formaldehyde testing. Um and you know the the challenge that they have over there is you know the the the trailers um you know don't um uh and and certainly motorhomes as well. Um yeah, they're looking for exemptions because um what is what is represented in those products is not you know reasonable based on on what the regulation's coming down.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

So we want everyone to be safe, but um, it's controlling the big fist of government to say, look, this is not always what what it seems, there's there has to be some give and take.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

And and you have to be practical and realistic. Um again, yeah, yeah, we understand the regulators have a role to play, um, but there also has to be some you know commercial sensitivity attached to that as well. And so yeah, we're there for the voice of reason to make sure that you know we get in these conversations before they you know gather too much steam and get away on us.

SPEAKER_04 11:43

Yeah, cool. Vaughan, I'm gonna throw this to you. As a business owner who's been here for 20 years now, uh what role has I guess the industries, Caravan Industry Association had in your growth of the MDC business?

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah, I guess um it's been a very important part of what we do because when you're first starting out, you just don't know what you don't know. So it you know, regulations, um compliances, there's uh you know, there's a certain way you need to go build a caravan. You can't just go put electrical appliances in everywhere and water everywhere and um turn it on. Yeah, there's a lot of safety um considerations, which also changes the way that you can build a van. For instance, you know, we want to have power near um in your kitchen near water, right? Because it's just convenient.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

You might want to plug something in or yeah, but then plug in a toaster, but your kitchen's only that big, so it's gonna be near water naturally.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Exactly, which is a problem, right? You know, you've got young kids that are washing up, making a mess, you don't want water to go into powerpoints, stuff like that. And um, you know, initially it took me a a long a little while to actually become a member and understand it because I didn't know it was around. Um and um I guess back in the day we let we ran into a few little problems, things that we weren't quite doing correct on our early camper trailers. But um the association was very um forward in saying, hey, these are the rules, this is what you need to do. And you know, we quickly uh change to make the product correct. And now we have a team in place. Um, you know, there's six people that work on RD and um how we design the vans going forward, which is uh something that I'm not while I oversee it, I'm not in it in the day-to-day and do you see Wayne?

SPEAKER_04 13:32

This is for you, is do you see this do you see I guess the customer behaviour or awareness around the role that I guess the association plays?

SPEAKER_05 13:41

Is that publicly known or it's I I think for the for the consumer that has has an interest in it, yes, definitely. Uh and I know obviously the the state bodies, you know, that they're more what the the customer sees, you know, on at shows or in more rooms, yeah. They're more of that yeah, cole-face, you know, customer-facing kind of uh bodies. Yeah. Whereas uh the the national body, you know, you you uh oversee everything. So it's kind of all all the back end stuff that some consumers would understand and would would be uh would benefit greatly from. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

And I think Sam, yeah, yeah, one of the things that we are a large country and our our products cross borders. Um and state governments are um are very great at interpreting regulations in different ways, which is quite frustrating. And so um, yeah, just as um Anthony Albanidi, uh Albanese uh convened national cabinet in relation to the you know the fuel crisis. Yeah, we had a similar conversation uh um over in Perth caravan show just last week, where we got all the state associations together so that we could work on you know how can we have harmonised positions, you know, what are we doing, what are we seeing in the market. And so um yeah, we are one team. Um yeah, we all have a different role to play as far as that's concerned, but that's the only way that we succeed as an industry. And and I've seen many other industries um you know try and replicate the federated structure that we have. Um and you know, I think we are you know you know generally we can always be better, but we are best in class when it comes to you know, even from an association and representative body in terms of the way that we operate and and we work together.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

Yeah, fantastic. We've talked about, I guess, the role that it has and why consumers, I guess, should see value or can how they can recognise the value of this of the industry association protecting them. There's a program in place called RV Map. Can you explain what that is and and what its purpose is?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah, the the uh it's um um R V Manufacturers Accreditation Program, and so it's a licensed program, it's uh it's an opt-in basis, so it's uh from a voluntary perspective. Um and those individual businesses or manufacturing product uh who um show a clear commitment to safety of their consumers, um, yeah, continued education, uh compliance of their products, um, you know, sign into it. Um and as part of that program um they place a um a key, uh, accreditation key on the side of um on the side of their product close to the door so it's it's well recognized. Um and we will um you know not only provide um education, you know, we'll get them involved in terms of um understanding in terms of regulatory changes that are coming up. Um we'll go into product on on new designs and make sure that in terms of you know those products are um compliance safe for consumers by the time that they actually get into marketplace. And you know, we've saved many millions of dollars for um you know individual businesses uh who may have found themselves in trouble in terms of putting some of their products on the road. Um but I think as far as a consumer's concerned, you know, it is a it's a level of confidence that you know the the individual that they're dealing with is committed to uh best practice and continual improvement.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

It's almost like a seal. A seal of approval that that the Industry Association is backing that and that the company's done the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Just one thing I just want to you know blow our horn a little bit. But um there is a photo that's up on the wall um at head office there. Um myself and Stuart, you know, MDC was the first uh manufacturer in Australia that has an overseas partner, so the product is imported that actually achieved R V Map. Absolutely. So we were number one. Yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

It's not a technical flick. Um and yeah, Vaughan, I think you know you you'll you'll admit it it's still a process. You thought at the end of the day, I'll just pay my money and and sign the form. But uh I think you it took it took it took about nine months or whatever to you know we we want to make sure that there's something behind that particular um badge and and it is about continual inspection and improvement and and what have you, because you know we want consumers to you know you know deal with the best and and and that's what we think you know RV Mike uh um licenses are.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

So I've got a couple of questions around that. Then what does a manufacturer actually have to go through to achieve RV map accreditation?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Well, first of all, they need to have um a look at at um certainly some of their business processes in terms of making sure that they have um you know a genuine um you know compliance and and and marketing um business plan um that legitimately um are able to supply product to market. Um but then the real crux comes to it is actually continually inspecting product until such time as we have a level of comfort that um while it's not a guarantee, um the majority of products that are going to be rolled out that line um are going to be safe and compliant. And and what we do see, and we've done some seven, eight thousand uh you know, product inspections over the last you know six or seven years. Um and um those products that come out of um an RV map licensed business are some three and a half times you know better, more compliant, whatever you want to call it, um, than you know those products outside. So yeah, quite clearly, you know, um not only is it about getting into the program and being very tough and and doing this over several months to make sure that you know it's not a fad and you know they're not just designing a product for inspectors to come in and have a look at it.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

And your inspectors can turn up I wouldn't say necessarily unannounced in that respect, but you're often at a lot of the shows and and will come in. Maybe it is unannounced, yeah. I'm not hand Wayne shaking into the show.

SPEAKER_05 19:13

Every single association show. And it is you you do get to know you know the the inspectors that are coming. Um not the person that's actually going to be inspecting your unit, but you know, we have our new staff come on board and they're like, Oh, Wayne, someone's in that caravan over there. And I'm like, yeah, they're fine. Yeah, the association shirt with the clipboard, yep, they're fine.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

But but but it's not only shows, it's also dealerships and it's um uh at the factory through the construction phase. We've also um had reason um yeah to actually go to a consumer's um place and actually see the product you know after it's actually been delivered to them. So you know the this this is about making sure this is as robust as possible and and making sure that we if we do find you know an issue and and you know in most cases, you know, touch wood now from an RV map perspective, it's only a minor one, um, that it actually gets instilled into the manufacturing process and the design. So you know they're not rolling out very on a repeated basis in terms of the issues that we do identify.

SPEAKER_04 20:08

Correct, it's not repeating those situations. So I know that's something that uh I guess from an MDC perspective, we've since implemented the ISO 9001 accreditation process, which is then having a system in place that makes sure we tick all the boxes along the way to that we don't miss the things that are important as part of that RV.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

ISO's incredibly important, Sam. But you know, if you've got a bad product or a bad process, it just continually rolls out bad product, bad process. Correct, yeah. So you've got to have an intermediary in the middle to sit there and and um circuit break that um yeah, change it and then obviously ISO is incredibly important at the point.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

Having that process in place to tick it off and make sure that you don't repeat that issue again or it's captured and then reassessed and it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Yeah, and if you don't follow those processes, it actually costs the business a lot of money in the end. Um, you know, first and foremost, you want to have happy customers, you want to have a compliant product, and you want them customers to have a good experience, you don't want the product coming back. And so if you follow those ISO practices um which are best practice, it it helps install a level of quality um in your product and continual improvement of that product.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

So from a consumer's perspective and I guess an awareness around R V Map, uh how many manufacturers in the industry would hold that R V Map accreditation, I guess as a percentage or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Uh in terms of volume, um, it's just under 50%. Okay. Um in terms of actual manufacturers, because we have a very long tail from R, of course, industry.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

There's a small number of manufacturers that do a whole lot of volume.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah. And yeah, we talk about the 8020, it's not quite that um as far as we're concerned, but you know, we have you know many small um businesses that are uh are producing you know um single units or or or tens of units and and so forth. And some of those are very good and some of them aren't so good. Um but certainly from a volume perspective, um, the majority of those guys uh you know see and want to you know promote to consumers that yeah they are um you know continuing wanting to improve and and produce good product for consumers.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

It highlights I guess from a consumer's perspective to to pay attention. Yeah. Pay attention when you are looking at a manufacturer, just have a look for that R V map accreditation as part of your decision making process.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

And I think um yeah we we're not kidding ourselves it might not necessarily be the number one thing as to you know why people would think but but what we are finding is that about two-thirds of people that are in market recognise um in terms of the R V Map badge. Of those two thirds are saying that um yeah it's somewhere in the decision making process and if they were coming up a against a product that is um RV map badged as opposed to the not um yeah we hope that that you know they they tend to go into the you know the RV map product and yeah you only have to go to a consumer show and and sit around lunchtime and you know when they're listening to the conversations and so forth and it does come up. So um and and certainly we've got you know a lot of feedback from consumers that come to us um you know wanting a replacement badge because it's uh it's um yeah deteriorated over time or or a repair at the end of the day that's looking at putting a new panel on um and you know you go and ask them in terms of well you know why do you want to do this and they add value because you know they think at the end of the day it has um added resale value um and there is a badge that well badge of honour so to speak in terms of well you know I I want to be part of and have a product that you know is carrying in terms of you know some some level of industry credibility. With that yeah seal of approval we were just sort of referred to and I and I think sort of some um yeah this is part of a cradle to grave strategy that we do have in terms of you know we've got we've got a program for um um campgrounds caravan parks and we've got one for dealerships we've got one for um repairers coming up um yeah we've also got uh in terms of suppliers um we've got um you know obviously the manufacturers um and we've got salespeople as well so you know the idea is no matter where um a uh consumer interacts with a product person yeah uh um yeah business in the caravan and camping industry you know that appearance of the of the of the key um yeah should give them you know hopefully a better experience than dealing with with someone that's that's not part of one of those industry programs so you talked about some of those programs we've had um uh chissy from toe like a girl on um she's obviously part of the the Vansafe training program things like that um those education programs what they're obviously a big part of the association as well what do they look like and I guess are they a national program are there national programs that people can look into from an educational perspective and they are they something that would be then obviously accredited under that R V Map model? Yeah look we're we're we're talking to um those people that um do towing and working in terms of well what does that look like around an accredited towing program yeah we're advocating at the federal government in relation to subsidised towing because we think it's it's incredibly important to make sure that you know even those people that have towed before there's you know a refresher things have changed product has product has moved and and you know they're they're not expensive to get into um yeah you know Queensland and you've had Jason and Chrissy um yeah on here before you run that van safe program and you know they they get around Queensland um you know a lot of some 15 odd destinations around the um you know around the calendar yeah we would love to see um that being incorporated you know more nationally and across some other states I know there's some police programs and and what have you but yeah it still relies on funding so um you know we're we're working hard and I know you know Jason's working hard with with the Queensland government and and some of his counterparts are looking to try and get funding for it but you know we only had a conversation last week in terms of how how can we nationalise this and actually take some of those programs and take the template that's learned and um you know take them into state as well.

SPEAKER_04 25:38

That kind of leads into I guess that national show program and then the salespeople for for the businesses. So we talked about the actual product itself being credited and and assessed and audited from time to time. What about the salespeople what about these fellas with the big beards that roll around and actually are talking to consumers what what's stopping them going rogue?

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Wayne's actually got the accreditation he's wearing it does.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

So yeah there's there's actually an accreditation for for the salespeople as well right what does that look like I I think it's twofold um yeah one yeah a caravan in many cases is is not a small purchase yeah it's one of the second or third largest purchases you'll ever make in a lifetime um and I know if I'm talking about$500 my wife saw me in terms of you know wanting some sort of security and so forth attached to it. So if you've got someone going in even spending you know you know$10,000 on a secondhand product up to you know$200,000 in terms of a you know um U-bute caravan motorhome um you you want at the end of the day um the people that you're interacting with you know to have um a great level of um you know technical education um and understanding in terms of what uh what legal rights that you have um and you know you want them to be of of good stature um and so that's what the that's what the salesperson accreditation program's about you know we want to quiz them in relation to strand consumer law obligations um you know we want um them to uh have a dealing of respect um you know with the consumers we want them to have a level of education and and if for any reason it's quite visible you've you've seen Wayne in terms of you know proudly displaying in terms of uh of of the badge on his on his chest um you know if there's a problem with with with Wayne there's uh actually a mechanism in in terms of to investigate that and and uh so forth as far as the consumers are concerned so yeah you know it's it's it's something that you know we want to give consumers greater comfort uh comfort in terms of dealing with the individuals that they're dealing with so Wayne you've been investigated a number of times now haven't you I'm joking I'm not I'm not good at another standpoint I know about it is there is there something we can do it would have been a lovely segue though it would have been a lovely segue.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

Look no Wayne can you just tell us a bit about what's involved from a from the salesperson's point of view what do you have to do Covenant Industry Salesperson accreditation program I got it right it should have I've had it for four years now I think um it is a annual uh renewal so the uh association reaches out to uh manufacturers and and dealers and salespeople uh and then you know they they send out your renewal notice so that you have to uh re-resit the course and it is 30 questions uh they're not the same questions so you could have six people in one particular uh dealership they're not the same questions so they can't just copy paste no no there's no no copy in place yeah oh can you come help me with my homework no um and and they are quite in depth and it comes covers everything from uh consumer law and consumer rights uh your obligations as a as a salesperson and a dealer uh your obligations to a consumer uh if if you were a dealer and not not a not like uh MDC how we have all of our own showrooms um where your obligations to the consumer if you're selling another manufacturer's product as well uh and it does it it covers everything from from where to go from a warranty yeah warranty you need to make sure yeah you need to make sure that that and you'll see it across uh all of our sales team is one of the big questions we ask now is what vehicle are you towing with what what is your tow capacity but also what is your gcm what what what can you do because yeah it's it's one of those things where safe safety is first and foremost for for a lot of uh salespeople and consumers these days so it's understanding that you know what you're talking about in that respect and yeah you're not just pulling numbers out to get a van across the line with a customer right it does it it's it is a good segue for uh especially at consumer shows it is a good segue so you know you you're talking about the product um and all of our sales team have obviously got their uh c sap badges on their and you know on their lapels um so you can talk about one while while the product is rvmap accredited also your obligation as as a salesperson because the we are rvmap accredited as a business but then all the salespeople it's actually a different key it's a salesperson key so and you're all individually accredited there yeah you've got your own badge number and yeah as the uh business owner when this um program became available and we were part of the initial pilot we actually jumped on it and the reason is um we want our team to be given our customers or prospective customers the correct information and um what they learn and particularly in this industry there's a lot of people that come from CarWorld that come across and they don't have experience with the caravan but it sets them up for success that they're having the right conversations and we're not given um customers the incorrect information and so they can be happy with their purchase and there's nothing that we have to underw unwind going back if we're given out the wrong information right at the start.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Yeah and the customer kicks back and goes back to the industry and says hey I was told this but in fact this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

And also those tips and tricks you learn um it's like well I wasn't aware of that and it it's also um puts ideas in their mind of what a customer's going to ask them and and you know they've got the answers there correct and given the correct information they can trust the information they're being told.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

So so how did that come about Stuart? I guess from a how did the salesperson accreditation program come about? Was there sort of bad experiences or was it just a a follow-on kind of next step?

SPEAKER_00 31:15

It was a natural progression but I I think um when you have a look at what the ACC um and um its view towards the industry is concerned um you you look at the end of the day in terms of um yeah automotive salespeople and and and uh yeah the rap that they get as far as consumers are concerned in terms of you know not having the confidence to deal with those um yeah we just thought this was a natural progression um to not only protect the industry and the industry businesses so that you know if one less recall, one less buyback, one less you know warranty claim um but also to give greater confidence to consumers. Again large priced item with a lot of emotional you know connection attached to it. We wanted to make sure in terms of that was the very best experience that they could have and this is part of part of that that progress.

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Fantastic um well look we we're just talking a little bit about the customer experience and the sales team's role and I guess what makes a good salesperson out of the program. They're getting educated as part of their training and their accreditation is there features that sort of separate from a customer walking into say a dealership or a showroom is there something that stands out between a good and a bad showroom or dealership?

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Are there sort of things that people should look out for I think we've come in my time in the industry you know the the dealerships have evolved immensely you know from a um from a little demotable on a gravel yard and and and so forth to um the yeah even the the the sophistication that comes with with this particular um you know dealership here in Kabucha. Customers again if they're they're parting with the hard earned money um you know they want to feel as if that experience from the time that they are uh transacting and coming in looking at product and so forth yeah that they want that to to also meet their expectations consumer expectations have also you know enhanced greatly in relation to you know what they expect and and accept and so you know presentation is incredibly important as far as that's concerned. But I think in terms of um you know you look at a consumer coming in and purchasing a product um you know um through a dealership you know this ability um of people to sit down and and take it away from being a transaction sitting going well how can we help you what's the experience what's your toe vehicle what are you looking to do with your product and how can we help you because you know I need to look at MDC they've got a product for everybody.

SPEAKER_04 33:35

So and they're all they're all out in the lot.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

You can see every one of our models they're all on display yeah um but but it's about you know matching in terms of the right product for how this you know particular um customer customers are looking to use their product and um you know we've we've we've had a fantastic you know period honeymoon period you know through COVID and so forth where I think even I could sell a caravan and that's saying something. But yeah you know yeah nowadays in terms of yeah you need to make sure that um the customer's validated in terms of the decision going well we're going to go and buy a caravan today and we want to make sure in terms of we've got the very best one that suits our needs and and um and so forth. And that's why you know going into a dealership there's accredited um dealing with an accredited product dealing with salespeople that think you know that's part of the experience.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

I think from as a marketer my biggest pet hate in sort of purchasing something is putting an order in and then saying I want this and this and this but I can't actually see the finished product when I want to actually touch it, look it, feel it, see that that's going to go there and that's going to go there. The other side of that is actually seeing the model that you're looking at in its entirety and having it on display I think Vaughan and Wayne from an MDC perspective that's obviously the model you've looked at let's have all the inclusions included as standard so people don't have that doubt about what they're buying. Just want to talk about that and I guess showrooms are a huge part of our business something that I guess we really pride ourselves on.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

But what's the thinking behind the showrooms Vaughan from from the top of the tree and then weighing in the execution yeah um you know these caravans are a really big purchase and the idea is you know we want to supply them with turnkey solutions that's got absolutely everything involved just add your food clothes and away yeah and you know away you go um and from the dealership perspective I always like to have one of everything because I want the customer to come in and go oh okay I see that XT16 HR Island there I'll have a look over it I like that and I'd like to place an order but it's hard for a person to go if you don't actually physically have the product there to inspect how do you expect them to spend you know twenty fifty hundred thousand dollars if they actually can't eyeball it and you know understand that it it works for them. It's uh sit in it, look, such feel yeah a big purchase to go through and make a mistake and then go on hand over actually don't like it.

SPEAKER_04 35:58

So it's a big order to place and then turn up and not take it home with you.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Yeah and I mean um it takes a lot of uh I guess to have one of everything across all eight stores across the country it's a lot of investment it's a lot of product sitting on the lot there and my um CFO's like you know mate are you sure you need one of everything? I'm like mate if we could do two we'd do two just in case we sell one we'll want another one on backup. Yeah and we're a high volume seller but so also you've got what's on the lot but also what's coming in the pipe customer orders and what's going out you know the door every month.

SPEAKER_05 36:34

So Wayne you're an you're responsible for a lot of the actual execution of the showrooms like you oversee a lot of them nationally make sure they're they've got stock they're laid out in a certain way you often categorize ranges talk talk a bit about some of the the considerations we have and I guess the other thing is like our finance arm we have MDF so we're trying to make the showroom the one stop shop so they come in and talk it is it is uh as Vaughn said it is uh a motto that we always have had is one to show one to go and in some locations two or three available ready to go which is handy around consumer shows because we sell a lot of caravans in such a small amount of time but uh you're right so we we run what is uh a uh help me here for one what's Andrew's word one team one dream no a franchise model a franchise model correct where uh all of our showrooms are that you could walk into you know completely any location in any of our any of our showrooms across the country and they are all the same so they're all laid out the same all your styling is the same the process from start to finish is the same so you know whether you're coming in for for just a look and outing on the weekend with the family or whether you're actually coming to sit down and make a commitment you you're gonna get the same service across all of our team you're gonna get the same service from from the MDF team as well and then you know down to our our handover specialists who are all uh trained in exactly the same process and that comes back through obviously our R V map accreditation uh and our own internal uh programs that we use to streamline that process yeah can you just talk about the handover because it's not a it's not a matter of just coming and picking up the van and off you go very high level what it uh what that involves because it's not just a 10 minute process. We do have some customers that just come in and they're like just hook it up I'm going which you know that that's fine because they don't want to go through the process that's fine. It does depend on location. Like uh some states such as Queensland we can pre-register vehicles before the customer comes to pick up so they're gonna come into the showroom and their unit is going to be registered before they actually physically come into the showroom and that's normally done the day before. New South Wales is an example uh number plates and registrations have to be done on the day because the paperwork has to be submitted on the day and that's that's a separate state regulation. But the handover process itself is well once a unit comes out of production and is transported to a showroom you're gonna have uh we have our own uh showroom PDR so uh a QC that gets done I think there's about 110 odd um point questions in that where the uh sales team and the handover team will go over every single unit make sure it has everything that it's meant to if the customer has made any uh special change requests which doesn't happen very often with our units because we have a turnkey solution for everybody uh once that's done the the consumer is booked in for a handover and then once the handover is is locked in the customer comes into the showroom and much like the showroom PDI our handover QC also has about I want to say nearly a hundred odd questions these days but at the very end of that the customer the the consumer themselves so Stuart came in to buy a caravan we'd run him through that handover QC and each of those points is is explained to Stuart and it's you know everything from how to open your door how to turn on your hot order system how to lock your door little things yeah and then at the very end of that handover QC and sometimes we we take as long as or as uh short amount of time as as we need so we tend to allow pretty wide window in those don't we? Yeah about an hour we we tend to tell customers across the country allow about an hour and an hour and a half hour 45 and you know sometimes they go out to two hours but at the very end of that handover QC that the consumer actually signs it to say I thank you I understand what we've discussed.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

So and if they ever need that's why we shoot all the the YouTube videos and stuff and explain us and the walkthroughs and can see your beautiful face up there turning on the hot water system right that video is a great video. It is a great video if you ever want to know how to turn on your hot water system just jump on YouTube and you'll ask Wayne ask Uncle Wayne he'll sort you out.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

But but I think Sam uh um not only is there large financial investment in terms of these products there's a lot of emotional um investment attached to as well and it's lucky that MTC have product uh on the lot and you know almost drive it away but um you know that's not necessarily always the case and so you know when you become disconnected from um yeah when you sign the deal and put your deposit down to when you're actually physically going into the the dealership to to to buy it it can be several weeks or months or what have you. And so the emotional buildup of that of the consumers is where they're going to go what are they going to do where their first trip is um can get blinded in the handover process. And so that you know they're not really willing to to you know spend the time because all they want to do is is hook it up and get on the road. So yeah you know and I I I had the I had the conversation with uh um yeah with the MDC team uh back in back in November down at um at a New South Wales event and and just some of the the things that they're doing now to make sure that the consumer um might not have picked everything up um as much as they may have signed it and so forth they've still got all these tools available to them as to how they can use the product uh how they can use the you know individual components within the product because you know these things are constructed with you know many hundreds of different yeah yeah components which are features components functions yeah they're amazing vehicles and so you know people just go yeah I know how to use that but um in some cases when you're out on the road you go maybe I didn't so I just want to come back look back a bit more at the industry again and and since COVID we've obviously seen the massive growth everyone's talked about that and is very familiar with it it's obviously changed the landscape you know as you referred to earlier you could have almost sold a caravan during COVID well congratulations that's that's an achievement well done do you think now in six five years on are we seeing a bit of a correction um in terms of is are we seeing any kind of slowdowns this plateau is this the new norm what are you seeing in terms of consumer trends and yeah buying behaviors it's probably a different question today as it was it was two weeks ago yeah I bet um absolutely but but but that being said I think um uh as a country we've actually held our own um yeah well we saw the big COVID uh um um you know ramp up you know we saw other markets fall off quite quickly um and quite dramatically we haven't seen that um you know if if we think back to 2018-2019 we're you know um yeah pushing 30 odd thousand units into the marketplace you know through COVID we're about 60 um last year we're 50 um so significantly above in terms of what that normal trend line was uh we think that that's a baseline um and I think even with you know uh all the noise that's out there at the moment um there's still a lot of bent up um demand for industry product obviously a lot harder to make sure that people want to transact because they're nervous about about what the future looks like in the immediate market but once things settle down and and so forth we're very continue to be yeah and continue to be very buoyant in terms of what the market looks like and and I think you know if you've got a good product um yeah which is you know good RD, understand in terms of where your consumers are market it well, present it well at consumer shows, you know you're going to be ahead of the trend.

SPEAKER_04 43:49

Do you think that quality of product and I guess the systems that the industry is putting in place are contributing to perhaps the resilience of it longer term? Where do you see The long-term future for the industry or say five years' time.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Yeah, look on you know, I only look at back at the December quarter, we had you know record level of people going out and staying in caravan and camping product. Um yeah, we've got now you know so many great um places that people can go, both in commercial caravan parks in terms of the product and features that that they're putting in, but but also you know, other commercial models like um you know farm stains and wineries and and and um eco-experiences that that that people are mixing their product up with. Um and you know, I just look I I'm I'm uh continue to be really excited about the industry because um you know Australia's got so many great um destinations in our own backyard. You know, we consider to be a safe place to go away. And and yeah, there'll be people uh you know, not discounting what's happened in the last couple of weeks, but you know, we'll we'll go on their international travel or they'll you know go on a cruise. But historically it would be one or other. Now it's I'll go, but I'll still keep my caravan there and I'll still go on trips as far as that's concerned. So so that's our role. How do we make sure that they stay sticky? How do they make sure they get out there and enjoy a country? And you know, this you could be constantly on the road and have very different experiences based on you know the weather, uh the the people you come up with and so forth. So I yeah, I'll you know, we're very buoyant about whether it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 45:14

My feeling, my feeling on that is that you know, I'm very involved in the industry myself. It's COVID changed the way people looked at how they travelled and how they spent their free time, and it opened up a lot of people's eyes to how beautiful this country is. It gave birth to this huge volume of YouTubers and people that wanted to go and do a lap of Australia, and that just showcased you know what was actually out there, and I think that self-perpetuated people's inspiration to travel locally and do things themselves and perhaps buy a caravan where they weren't even thinking of it pre-COVID. And so I kind of share the same view. I think it's quite buoyant in itself that it's going to self-perpetuate, continue to do that as more YouTubers come on, they become more self-sufficient. Communications with things like Starlink makes it more accessible for people to work and travel on the road. You know, who knows where we'll be if Vaughan might let us all work from home in the next couple of weeks if we can't afford to drive to work, we'll see how we go.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Well, I work from our caravans.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

That's right. So I I share a similar view.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

But Sam, I I I look at COVID and and we look at the horrific experience that you know people in Victoria went through not being able to get out of the house. And you know, what I heard often through that time is um you know, after many years of being married or so forth, I don't actually like the person that I live with or the you know, kids and so forth. And so, yeah, what do they do the moment that COVID came up and they could travel again? Yeah, they basically went alone with those very people that they now can't stand in a very much smaller environment than what their own living thing and absolutely loved it. So I think that's what caravanic camping you know can do.

SPEAKER_04 46:41

Yeah, bring families closer. Well it does. Sometimes closer and further apart.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

But we've just done some some research which we'll release shortly, and this this concept of happy campers is actually a genuine thing, you know. Yeah, caravanic campers are are more optimistic, they're happier, um, you know, they consider themselves to be more wealthier, uh, they're certainly less um um, I guess, uh lonely, bored. Um and so, you know, even those people that don't go caravan camping um think that you know camping teaches children's life skills and think it's good for children to go to. Um, we're about to release some uh um some research in relation to what kids think about camping. And and um, you know, we just need to make sure that this this pipeline is preserved and this, you know, in a world of of darkness, you know, caravan and camping is you know you know continue to be pushed forward. And um, you know, I think there's you have so many great opportunities that people that you know just hop in the open road and and you know have the flexibility to go left or right depending on whether where the wind blows. That's incredibly liberated.

SPEAKER_04 47:37

If people want to see that research, where does that, where, where do things like that become publicly available?

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Um well, we will be releasing it um from a media perspective and we'll be releasing it to to industry in the in in the next um month or so. Um yeah, we do have um a very good um uh uh set of library uh under caravanstats.com.au some of that is is subscription based, but there's a lot of a lot of free information as far as that's concerned. And and and even for consumers who are you know looking for for tips or inspiration as to where they go, yeah, they should just go to the you know, let's go caravan and camping.com.au website. That's uh that's our consumer website. Right. And there's you know sign up to the newsletter uh and and um you know have a look around there. There's there's great um yeah, towing tips, safety chips, uh inspiration of where you can go, you know, industry features and what have you. So we run some great competitions as well. So people should get involved.

SPEAKER_04 48:28

That's really cool. Look, where do you see innovation happening in the next five to ten years? We wouldn't have ever thought we'd have you know full air conditioners in caravans that you could use off-grid just while you're sitting on the beach up at Noosa. But we do now. Lithium batteries. Where's where do you see uh innovation coming?

SPEAKER_00 48:46

It's interesting. Some people think innovation is a slap of paint. So um, but when I look at stickers, yeah. But when I look 10 years ago in terms of you know what those products were then and what they are now, and and and you many caravans don't die. You see them on the road up and down the highway, you know, these these you know 1970s products and so forth, you know, still still tramps in the Ks and what have you, but yeah, they're very differently styled, very different in terms of the features um you know that are that are now in a van as opposed to when they were now. And you know, you know, big focus in relation to all the electrical components that are in your van and 48 volt is is now starting to become a bit of a buzzword. You look at um battery management systems in terms of the convenience and um yeah, the ability for people to check their products, um, um, you know, check their check their levels um remotely in terms of turn product on or off. Um you know these are features that you expect at home. You know, you mentioned Starlink, yeah, the ability to connect um no matter where you are around the world. Um uh but yeah, this is gonna be ultimately consumer-driven. You know, if a consumer trend happens and it's in your part of your normal lifestyle or it's suspended in your home, you can expect at some point in time that's gonna be miniaturized and you know brought into the caravan industry.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Absolutely. And then I guess the last couple of questions. For someone who's about to buy their first van, what are the top three things they should prioritize?

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Oh, look, I I think first of all, um certainly understand in terms of of uh the towing capacity of your vehicle. Um now, if you're gonna go and buy a van a van at the end of the day, you're gonna look to upgrade, you know, make sure in terms of you know the that the the van has the um capacity to actually tow whatever product that you're doing. Alternatively, you'll be talking to the the dealership salespeople and go, this is what I've got. Yeah, there's no point you know hooking up a 19 to the back of your back to your mini minor edge trail. Um I I think second um Lee, you need to have a very clear understanding of how you're going to use the product. Every everyone loves to to talk about off-road or what have you, but you know, the the the reality is they're not using um you know the features that the product's designed for. So you know it it may be in terms of you know you need to look at a different spec vehicle. Um and the only way that you can get the right product um you know to suit your needs is actually uh having a honest conversation with a salesperson that's selling it. And if the salesperson's worth the salt, you know, you know, that they're they're worth in salt, you know, they will make sure that they match you know to how you are intending to use your product. Because as Vaughn said before, yeah, there's no point having an unhappy customer and coming back and going, that's not what I thought I was getting into. Um and I think as as we talked previously, you know, you want to have comfort in terms of investing your hard-earned and emotional capital into a product. So you should be looking for someone that is um certified under industry accredited programs because yeah, it means that you're gonna have a better chance of having a positive experience than than what you may do. Yeah, yeah, um, for those that aren't uh involved and committed.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

Sounds like a very sound top three. That's good. And then I guess just lastly, online resources for customers. You referred to the Let's Go um website. Is that the best place for people to go from an industry to be?

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Someone to start and as a as a launching pad, yeah. Let's go caravanandcamping.com.au is a is a great starting point. Um yeah, we've got towing resources and safety resources, we've got education, we've got inspiration, you know. As I say, um we've just finished a magnificent program, you know, Road to a Million, which encourages people to go out and stay in in campgrounds and travel around the country. And um, you know, in a couple of weeks we're going to give one lucky person that stayed in the campground of the last four four months the chance to win a million bucks.

SPEAKER_04 52:20

So we'd almost cover it two nights at San St. Point.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Just about, just about. But um, yeah, and and and to be honest, we hope they win. So um, and we've done this a couple of times, and yeah, just going out in the campground and and hearing the magnificent stories about where people have been and what they're doing, and you know, yeah, the people that they've met and and how well grounded their kids are and and so forth. Um yeah, it's why I keep turning up to caravan parks and uh going around uh around the camp kitchen and listening to in terms of of where people are have been, where they're going, and what their experiences are.

SPEAKER_04 52:50

That's brilliant. Love it. Well, look, Stuart, that's been really insightful. Thank you very much for joining us. Um yeah, look, it's opened my eyes to I guess the depth and complexity of what uh what the industry does provide, and um, yeah, I'd I would feel a lot more comfortable as a consumer knowing that there is that backing there. So thank you for taking the time today. Pleasure, sir. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Wayne. Always a pleasure, Sam. Thank you, Vaughan. Thank you, everybody, for watching, listening, and uh, we hope you enjoyed what you've seen or heard. And uh, if you do like what you like or see, please like, please subscribe, and we'll see you on the next episode of the Off Grid Down Under Podcast.