HR Peep Show

Episode 5: Getting Fired

• HR Peep Show • Season 1 • Episode 5

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In this episode of HR Peep Show, hosts AnnE Diemer, Claire Baker, and Krista Lane explore the complex topic of getting fired. They discuss the societal stigma surrounding firing, share personal and industry experiences, and provide practical advice on how to handle such situations from both employer and employee perspectives. Drawing from decades of HR consulting experience, the hosts aim to normalize the conversation around being fired, stressing that it's a common aspect of work life and not necessarily a mark of failure. Tune in for insights into the firing process, negotiating exits, and the importance of maintaining empathy and dignity during such moments.

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Getting Fired - Show Notes & Transcript


Acknowledgments
This episode was produced by AnnE Diemer, and it is hosted by AnnE Diemer, Claire Baker, and Krista Lane. It was edited by AnnE Diemer and Krista Lane. Music was composed for the Royalty Free Music Library by Rik Pfenninger. 

We also thank our friends who gave feedback on early takes of episode 1, and those we spoke to about making a podcast— especially Kamrin Klauschie, Kevin Landucci, and Jenna Lane for their invaluable expertise and advice.


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Additional Reading and References
Materials we recommend and/or links referenced in the episode, if you want to keep nerding out on this topic:


Transcript


[00:00:00] Krista: Welcome to HR Peep Show, where we pull back the curtain of life in human resources in the United States.
AnnE: I'm AnnE Diemer.
Claire: I'm Claire Baker.
Krista Lane: I'm Krista Lane, and we are your hosts. We may be new to podcasting, but not when it comes to people work. We are each fractional consultants at the intersection of people and operations with a collective several decades of experience, both in-house and consulting under our belts.
AnnE: I wanna talk about firing because I think it's got a stigma associated with it that I don't know that it always deserves. And obviously, that's like a pretty weighted statement, but what got me thinking about it is the host of Australian Survivor. Do you keep up with Australian Survivor?
Krista: No.
Claire: No, I can't say that I do.
AnnE: No, that's totally fine. I really didn't either until this summer. So the host of Australian Survivor, Jonathan Lapaglia, got fired and he talked about it like, really openly on his Instagram on podcasts, and that surprised me because people don't tend to talk about getting fired openly.
Here's what he posted on Instagram. "Australian survivor has had some of the most epic blindsides over the last 10 years, but this one just might be the craziest one of them all. Because it happened to me. I received a call from the network thanking me for all my hard work and dedication to the show. But for the next season, they are quote ‘going in a different direction.’"
And it's so rare that someone gets fired in this way and told that a company, the team, whatever, is going in a different direction and they're able to say it. So often there's a severance agreement. There's an NDA involved. And I just thought it was really interesting that he talked about it so openly because one, that probably means there wasn't an NDA involved, which I think is interesting. Maybe that's like a cultural difference, but also because it's incredibly normal to be fired, actually. We know that, we're HR people. We’ve fired people. It happens all the time. And it doesn't need to carry the weight that it carries. I'm not saying it's not a hard thing to do, and we're gonna talk about that, but it just got me thinking that we can normalize talking about firing a little bit more in the same way that Jonathan did.
So that's kind of why I wanted to talk about it today.
Claire: Well, I think there's a difference between being fired for cause and being let go because maybe you smelled funny or you know, like all of the reasons that you could be let go not for cause that may not be a layoff, for example. I think that if you maybe like did something unethical, that maybe, maybe you should have some shame about that. Only you can judge. But, uh, if, if it was just that you and your boss like didn't see eye to eye on something or you're going through a lot and your company needed something different right now, that's totally fine. And that's nothing to be ashamed of.
Krista: Yeah, I think what I'm taking away from this, uh, from both of your statements is that there are so many different reasons that someone could be fired and like only a very small percentage of them are things that are bad and maybe you should feel bad about. But there are so many like societal implications and behaviors that we see reinforced all the time where people take the bad situation and apply it to every firing.
AnnE: So what we wanna do with this podcast is we want to help folks see that being fired is both routine and normal. And can be complicated. And in public it is treated always like a shameful failure, but it doesn't necessarily need to be. And I think that disconnect does real damage and it's time to talk openly about what getting fired actually means and what it doesn't mean. And I wanna start off by asking a question so that we can pull back the curtain on the HR side of this. Have y'all fired someone? How does it feel to fire someone?
Krista, I'll start with you.
Krista: It's not great. Even if it's not your decision that you made, it never feels good to be the messenger of that decision. Especially one that affects someone's livelihood, that affects, you know, where they're getting their next paycheck from.
Yeah, it's hard. And I also know that like it's not about me. It, you know, I have more power in this situation, so I need to wield that responsibly and empathetically and make sure that, you know, I've done everything I can to either change the outcome or make the outcome as soft a landing as possible.
Claire: I'm, I'm lucky because I am usually the one in the background who is on call shutting off the accounts, and then I swoop in with the tea and sympathy and buckets of money like right afterwards, and I'm telling them about like their final paycheck in Cobra and unemployment and all of that stuff.
So. I have been in the room. I don't love being in the room. My heart can't really take it. But I, I think I actually like when I get an opportunity to be there for somebody because, it's a moment that they're really vulnerable and it's an opportunity to step in and just treat them like a human being and treat them with dignity and like in a moment that they're not expecting it. It really can make a difference for people.
I know that it has made a difference for people. And just as an example, like one thing I always do is I say, feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn and if there's anybody that I'm connected to that you would like to meet. Please by all means, and I'm very happy to make an introduction and I, I think that like that has made an impression on a lot of people just to send the message that you're not damaged goods.
I still believe in you and I am to put my reputation behind you because I want you to find something that's a better fit. And obviously this wasn't it, and you deserve better.
[00:06:22] AnnE: Ugh. That's so well said from both of you. I agree. It, it never feels good. I've fired, I don't know how many people, but I've done it and it feels bad every time. And I found myself wondering at one point, like, will it feel easier? And I think if it starts to feel easier, then we're not doing it the way you're talking about Claire. I think we're not bringing that empathy. We're not trying to be humans while doing it. And I'm not asking for any sympathy because as Krista said, HR is the one with the power in this situation. So you have to hold both things. Like we have the power. And it still sucks. And usually if I'm firing someone, there’s been a lot that's led up to that. It's very rarely a quick decision. It's very rarely a manager comes to me and says, I wanna fire someone, and I'm firing someone later that day. There's a lot of conversations before that. What are some things that you all think are important in the decision making process for firing?
Krista: I like, I wanna make sure that the employer has considered their role in how we got here.
AnnE: Yes.
Krista: And whether there's anything else that we can do differently to change that outcome. Like they might say, I have decided that I think this is what needs to happen, and it's my job to make sure that they've actually reviewed everything and make, you know, reviewed their own role in it and their complicity in how we got to this point, and if there's anything else that we could have done, to either prevent the, the current outcome or to make sure it never happens again for someone else.
Claire: And I think, Krista, you bring up a good point, which is that like sometimes it isn't the person's fault necessarily, but it still has to happen, and that doesn't always mean that it's something that they did, which is really unfortunate. But I think the other thing is if you have been in these rooms a few times, you realize that a lot of times it wasn't the person's fault, but if they were to stay, it would be a really shitty situation for them, and you don't wish that on anyone.
AnnE: Absolutely. You gotta consider: are there any other options? Like, is there anything else we can do? Have we set someone up for success? Have we been clear about expectations? Is there any team switches we can do? I've never seen that work before. And -
Krista: I have.
AnnE: You have?
Krista: Yeah. I, I've seen, I've seen a team switch work because the issue was about like a manager who had a difficult relationship with their report, and they felt like it was not repairable because their values were so differently aligned. And we were like, okay, well is this, is this a values misalignment with the company or is it just between these two individuals and that their working styles are incompatible with each other, and could they be more successful on a different team? And I think it ended up working out reasonably well with the new team because that team just didn't have a lot of exposure to the other team. you know, and I, I don't think that they stayed, you know, super long or anything, but I think they valued that option, over, you know, just saying, well, we're an at-will employer and, sorry, you gotta go.
AnnE: Yeah, that they've tried something else. Absolutely.
Claire: And I, I see it happen where the manager is not… like their primary duty isn't a people manager and folks who are in that position often, like leadership positions and stuff are flawed human beings. Some people get it, some people don't. But you can take somebody really good that isn't working with that one individual, put them in another similar position with somebody else, and often it works out.
[00:10:04] AnnE: Absolutely, because something not working out in one place doesn't mean it will not work out anywhere. So I'm glad Krista, you've seen examples of that working because that's what I want hiring managers, people managers, team leaders, to be able to think about is what other options do we have here? And then sometimes that option is going to be firing someone.
And that leads me to thinking about something that a founder brought up at a networking dinner that Krista and I were at was that they didn't wanna hire someone who had been fired before. Not someone who had been fired from their company before, but someone who had ever been fired before, and they were explaining this because that's why they do back channel conversations. And I was baffled by that because there are people who I have fired, and I stand by firing them, that I would absolutely hire again. So I'm curious, do you all have that experience too? Can you think of someone who you fired and it makes sense? And you could also see an opportunity to hire them again. Why or why not?
Claire: Hell yeah. I, I have seen just that situation that we were just talking about where the problem is the manager, and for some reason the manager like, cannot be let go and these two people cannot be in the same organization.
And there's one that I'm thinking of right now where the person who got fired was burning himself up inside, like this, this man was tearing himself apart, trying to make it work, and it was not being reciprocated. And, I, I think a lot of times you see people who are, are so locked in on trying to make it work and because they think it would be failure to not make it work like this person is not going to put in their notice because putting in their notice would seem like surrender.
And at, at that point, somebody has to make the call and they have made it clear that it's not gonna be them. And I like I don't want to say that it's a mercy because I think that taking that agency away from somebody is like, it really sucks. It really, really sucks. Um, but at some point when you recognize that somebody is not well anymore and this place is not good for them, I am glad when we are able to get them a severance package and give them an excuse to move on.
Krista: Yeah, I, I think, um, I've definitely had folks that, that I fired who I would hire again, under different circumstances. I, I think a more recent example is someone made a bad mistake that was against policy and was pretty cut and dry and we know it was a mistake, but at the same time it impacted other people.
And so we were like, well, sorry. Uh, I hope you learn from this experience. I know that you have really great qualities that will carry you in the future, and they just won't be here. And I don't think that somebody should be necessarily punished for that mistake in the future either, which I think is why it's so important that someone being fired is not, you know, a scarlet letter on their back.
AnnE: Absolutely it makes sense in the context, but you're in a different context when you're hiring this person, so consider them in this other context. And I think in this case, I suspect I know what Krista is referring to, and I completely agree it was a mistake that I don't think this person is gonna make again. Man, if they did, I'd be so disappointed. So disappointed,
Claire: Oh, I'm dying, I'm dying to know what this was.
AnnE: I will tell you after the recording. So, so what's something that you want folks who are getting fired or who have gotten fired to know? What is something from behind the HR curtain that we can tell them? I don't know if it's gonna help them or not, but what's some information you would like someone who is being fired or has been fired to know?
Claire: You can't see it now, but this is probably a good thing.
AnnE: Ugh. So hard to say. So hard to hear, but I completely agree with you on that, and I say that as a person who's been fired. I couldn't see it then, but it was a good thing.
Claire: Has anybody not been fired in their career like what career is this that you haven't been let go, you haven't had like a disagreement or irreconcilable differences.
AnnE: yeah, it's just life. It's just life with humans. It's work life with humans. Although I don't think Krista has been fired.
[00:15:04] Claire: You've been laid off.
Krista: But I've been laid off and, I have experienced, like I, it, the, the phrase that was coming to mind that when Claire was talking earlier about like the manager and the other people that just don't get along, and like neither one of them is gonna like, make a first move. It's like chicken. Um, I have been in a game of chicken with people at work, and then I was the one who left.
So in theory, like I could have been fired. And although I'm bummed that I was the one who lost in that chicken game because it would've, there were other things about the, that workplace that were great and would've been nice. Um, it was just those people that were not great. So yeah, I haven't been fired, but, but there, it, it like, it's almost, um, it's like one of those like catchy phrases that, you know, Forbes or whatever, talk about like the quiet firing, where like, you're not really fired but you've been like pushed out. That's definitely happened to me.
AnnE: I've had someone tell me. Well, I think I'm just gonna resign before I get fired. And so I think my thing that I wanna tell people who are about to fired or who have gotten fired is: get fired.
Claire: Yeah.
AnnE: you don't need to resign. You don't need to resign before you get fired. That's that stigma associated with it. Get fired. Get the severance, Yeah. It's okay.
Claire: Get paid to look for a job. Like you can start looking now, and if it works out great, but get that severance, get that Cobra subsidy if you got one, make sure that you vest for another month or whatever it is. Hit that vesting cliff, hit that 401k match.
Krista: Yeah.
Claire: All of it.
Krista: Um, I have two, two things. One of them, I'm gonna start with a question for Claire, which is, um, because you probably know this off the top of your head more than I do, which is: if you get fired, what are the circumstances under which you don't qualify for unemployment? Or does that vary by state or other, like what other implications does that have?
Claire: yeah, well, I mean, you can always try. But usually if it's like some sort of misconduct, so that would be, say fraud, you were stealing from the till; that could be sexual harassment, violence, something like that. Usually if it's under performance, then even if your employer is a jerk and decides to contest your claim, they will probably pay you because the unemployment knows that there are two sides to every story, and it's better for everybody for you to just have a little extra runway to be able to find a decent job. And, and nobody's getting rich off of unemployment. I mean, they're, they're really poverty wages. And so, and if you're at the upper end of it, that means you have higher costs of living anyway. So like nobody is getting rich off of their, like, four months of unemployment or whatever it is.
So, nobody wants to be living like that, but it can be the difference between, maybe getting evicted, maybe having to declare bankruptcy, um, like having to give up your healthcare. It just gives people a little more time to find a real good fit job rather than the first thing that comes along, which can take years of your life if it's a crappy job, like nobody wins, by you taking a really crappy job that doesn't pay the bills, that treats you like garbage, that fires you in three months. Cause then you're right back on unemployment and you've like, got less time because you've already used some of your benefits for that year.
So, yeah, I mean, always file the claim, see what they say. But you, you should be able to get benefits as long as you didn't do something really unethical, um, and weren't fired for misconduct. And the other thing that a lot of people don't realize is if you are in that situation, like what Krista was in, where you're getting forced out and you're playing that game of chicken and you just decide this isn't healthy for me anymore. It - It does have to be pretty bad, but a lot of times you can also collect unemployment in those cases, if you can make the case that a reasonable person would've found it difficult to work under those conditions.
Krista: Well, that's good to know. Maybe I should have. I asked you, but I didn't know you then. So, um, okay. So the other anecdote that I wanted to share was that, um, someone, uh, I know negotiated their firing. And the terms of their firing. Now, this was not in the US unfortunately, but I just thought it was really, it was in Germany, which of course has excellent employee rights. But, I thought it was really interesting because this person was, so, he had, he had violated a moonlighting clause. He was working part-time for one company and then this other company that he had a contract with had an anti moonlighting clause that even applied to part-time workers. But he had been doing his job for like two years and didn't get caught, un-until that point. But it took them a month to negotiate his exit and he was a, like, they basically, they were like, you have violated the contract. Here is the section of the contract you have violated. Now we are beginning proceedings so that you can exit the company. And uh, anyway, so he was able to negotiate. A year's worth of benefits out of this. I could not believe it.
[00:20:56] Claire: Wow. Might as well just let him work in that case.
Krista: Right? I was like, why? You know, do we really care about enforcing this particular policy, but okay. Also, like Moonlighting is such a weird policy to have, like, anyway, that's a whole other rant for a different time. and you know, obviously like health benefits and things like that are, are things that are state provided, so that wasn't an issue, that wasn't the type of benefit he was getting. It was more like perks. It was an airline that he was working for. So he still got to fly for a year for just the standby taxes or whatever. I was like, good for him.
But you know, I did negotiate my layoff. Which is just that like in the US I did negotiate my severance for my layoff, which is a thing that, that not everybody thinks about. I hadn't really thought about it for firing, but I suppose under the right circumstances, like some of the ones where, you know, it's not really your fault, it could certainly be worth asking. I like to say that a lot of things are worth asking for and seeing what happens.
Claire: Yeah, I've, I've actually negotiated my own, I, I don't think of it as firing, but, it was, you know, one of us, it was a, one of us has to go situation. And, um, somebody actually sat me down a couple months ahead of time and were like, listen, you know, it's the boss's way or the highway. Which way do you wanna go with this? And I said, I'm gonna stick around. And she was like, okay. And then a couple months later, my boss was actually on time to my one-on-one for once. And I was like, well, here it is. And it was, and I, you know, and, and I had time to prepare. It wasn't a surprise. I was bitter and angry, but I was bitter and angry the day before that too.
And yeah, so I think if you see the writing on the wall and you think it's coming soon and you can hang on. And your company is in a position to give severance and things like that. Don't do it if you don't know that your company already gives severance. But yeah, I think it can be a way to leave gracefully.
AnnE: Absolutely. And that's really what I wanted to do with this conversation is talk about all the different types of firing there can be and when it's, yeah, sometimes it's because you did something bad and that's not going to feel good, and sometimes it's because your workplace didn't make the workplace sustainable and that doesn't feel good.
I'm not gonna pretend firing ever feels good. It doesn't feel good for us as HR to do it. It doesn't feel good for it to happen to you and it's normal, and I want to reduce the stigma at least a little bit. We make mistakes and we gotta move forward. So if you're firing someone, remember, do it as a human. Remember all the things that they are feeling. Try to take care of the person as much as possible while you're doing it. And if you're getting fired. Know that it doesn't make you bad. It doesn't mean you're not gonna get hired again. It's an opportunity to learn and it's an opportunity to do something different, and as Claire said, it might end up being for the best. I know it doesn't feel like that right now. I know it's so hard to hear, but almost every situation I've seen with this, it has been true. Any final thoughts from y'all?
Krista: I don't think it should be easy. Like it, it never gets easier. Um, and this is maybe more for managers that have to be part of the conversation with HR. Um. It doesn't get easier, and it shouldn't, it should always be uncomfortable. I think for, for managers it will always be uncomfortable and that doesn't mean that it, that you're doing it wrong and being comfortable with being uncomfortable is a really excellent skill. Whether it's about firing someone or having hard performance conversations or any other type of growth that you might experience, it's a good skill to build. Um, not that you should go firing everybody, but just to know that it doesn't have to be the end of the world, or it doesn't have to be something that you really avoid. Like if you need to do it, you need to do it. Don't avoid the hard conversations.
[00:25:16] AnnE: Mic drop. That's a good one. Claire, any last thoughts from you?
Claire: None of this stuff about like, um, it's probably for the best and all that stuff. None of this applies to the federal workers who have put in decades of public service. Um, your situation blows and I'm so sorry.
AnnE: No, that's actually really good to bring up and really good to end on is there's also firing that happens stupidly and badly, and those are great examples of it, and I'm not advocating for that at all. And everyone gets to be pissed about that.
Krista: Yeah. Yeah, I think feelings are valid, first of all, which is, is maybe something we haven't said earlier, but you know, is like it's totally understandable and fine to be upset regardless of the reason, um, whether it's politically motivated or if it's, uh, you know, based on something that you did or whether it's based on a really arbitrary policy violation that you didn't even know was in the handbook, you know, there's, there's all kinds of reasons that, are totally valid for you to be upset about getting fired.
AnnE: And if you've been fired, you're gonna be hired again. I know the job market sucks right now, but it is still true.
Krista: That's it for today's episode of HR Peep Show with your hosts, Claire Baker, AnnE Diemer, and me, Krista Lane. Thank you for listening and stay tuned for future episodes covering both hot takes and practical advice to build sustainable people-driven companies. To view transcripts and full credits or find out more about us, go to hrpeepshow.com. ​
[music fades out]
Oh my gosh. Like why are the cats coming after me?
AnnE: You're muted.
Krista: I know the cats are just very excited about me right now. They’ve been like glued to me all day.
AnnE: That's adorable.