HR Peep Show

Episode 7: Your boss is an asshole and no one cares

• HR Peep Show • Season 1 • Episode 7

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In this episode of HR Peep Show, hosts AnnE Diemer, Claire Baker, and Krista Lane delve into the often uncomfortable reality of workplace dynamics in human resources. We discuss the frustrations of dealing with asshole bosses, the limitations of expecting justice through HR, and the practicalities of when and how to report workplace issues. We also talk about the nuances of performance improvement plans (PIPs), emotional regulation, and finding the balance between standing up for oneself and protecting one's peace. Tune in for practical advice and hot takes to help build sustainable, people-driven companies.

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Your boss is an asshole and no one cares - Show Notes & Transcript


Acknowledgments

This episode was produced by Claire Baker, and it is hosted by AnnE Diemer, Claire Baker, and Krista Lane. It was edited by AnnE Diemer and Krista Lane. Music was composed for the Royalty Free Music Library by Rik Pfenninger. 


We also thank our friends who gave feedback on early takes of episode 1, and those we spoke to about making a podcast— especially Kamrin Klauschie, Kevin Landucci, and Jenna Lane for their invaluable expertise and advice.


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Additional Reading and References

Materials we recommend and/or links referenced in the episode, if you want to keep nerding out on this topic:






Transcript

Krista: Welcome to HR Peep Show, where we pull back the curtain of life in human resources in the United States.

AnnE: I'm AnnE Diemer.

Claire: I'm Claire Baker. 

Krista Lane: I'm Krista Lane, and we are your hosts. We may be new to podcasting, but not when it comes to people work. We are each fractional consultants at the intersection of people and operations with a collective several decades of experience, both in-house and consulting under our belts. 

Claire: My topic is: your boss is an asshole and no one cares.

A lot of people when they are in a tough work situation and, um, it's maybe not working out, but it is not to the point where it is getting to a resignation or termination type situation.

I think that a lot of people, their initial gut response to those situations is, um, to lean on a litigious type response. And maybe they're not going to file a legal claim, but they're gonna complain to HR and “they won't get away with this.” And there's, um, there's kind of a, a response where people expect to get justice and, um, I'm very sorry that this is happening to you if you're in that situation. Um, but that justice often doesn't come. And I think it's a misplaced expectation. You deserve to be treated well. You deserve to be treated with respect. Yes. Um, but that, that justice just sometimes isn't coming. And I think that people who are waiting for vindication often wind up getting burned unnecessarily. And so my topic is just like I wanted to talk to you guys about, it's not illegal to be a butthead. It's not illegal to be bad at your job. Most of the time it's not even illegal to be unfair. So when should you report something and when should you just put your energy into making alternative plans?

AnnE: Oh, that's such a tough one. I want it to be illegal to be a butthead. No, not really. Not really. 

Claire: Me too. Except sometimes I'm the butt head. 

AnnE: Exactly. That's what I was thinking. Sometimes I'm the butthead, so we, we can't make it illegal to be a butthead.

I think it can really depend on the circumstances, but I don't think it hurts to report. I just think you, what I wanna do right now is set expectations about what reporting it is going to do. I can't guarantee that person's going to be fired. I can't guarantee there's going to be consequences for that person, but as Claire said, you deserve to be respected at work. You deserve to have a great workplace. So reporting it gives someone an idea of what's happening. I can't guarantee something's gonna be done when you report it right now. I can't guarantee it's gonna happen the way that you want it to. But as HR, like, I wanna know because I want workplaces to be better and to make workplaces better, I have to know what's going on. And while I try to suss it out sometimes, sometimes I don't know until someone comes to me. So I wanna know. I want you to report it, but I wanna set really clear expectations that that may not change anything. And depending on who your HR is, it could be tough for you too. So know what you're doing going into it. 

Krista: It's also helpful from a documentation standpoint too, like maybe your individual complaint goes nowhere, but having it on file could be really handy as supporting evidence for either a bigger complaint or once there is a sufficient volume of complaints that are along the same theme. Maybe that's important feedback that this person really needs that they wouldn't get otherwise because it wouldn't seem like a big enough deal because nobody else had reported it.

But at the same time, I also acknowledge that there's a lot of power and retaliation concerns that are at play that could really make it, you know, a privileged position to be able to report freely, um, you know, maybe HR, like that awful Coldplay concert thing, like maybe HR is in cahoots with, with the CEO, right? Maybe you're complaining about the CEO, like maybe that really won't go anywhere and might even be retaliatory and you don't know. Um, so it's, it's valid to be concerned and fearful about whether reporting would be valuable for either yourself directly or for the greater good. And no one can really make that decision for you. That's something that, that you have to judge based on, what your situation is. 

AnnE: And if you just have to get yourself out of the situation. Get yourself out of the situation.

[00:05:00] Krista: yeah, protect your peace. 

AnnE: yeah, if you can report, if we can help with things, I wanna help. Not everyone wants to help. If you don't feel like someone's gonna wanna help: take care of yourself, that's what you gotta do. 

Claire: If you feel unsafe, like absolutely report it and do what you need to do to get yourself out of this situation. Uh, I, I want that to be very clear.

I, I think on the other extreme, HR is also not gonna come along and smack your, your boss upside the head. Um, and so I, I think some people in those situations when they complain, and I'm not gonna call it a report, like if it's a, a complaint, they're not maybe necessarily willing to participate in the solution and sometimes the solution is a type of mediation. Um, and, and be aware that sometimes you're gonna have to contribute as well and, and work toward a solution. Not in every situation. We don't know what situation you're in, but, um, I think sometimes like people are angry and they just want somebody else to tell this other person how it is, and often in those situations, for every finger pointing at someone else, there are 4  pointing back at you. So I, I think work trauma is real and sometimes it's more important to get yourself out of a bad situation than to get vindication. So, what are the long-term effects of staying in a job that doesn't respect you? Even if you do quote, win the complaint?

AnnE: Stay in a job because you need to make rent. Because in the US you need health insurance, those sense of security things. But if you can get another job, if you have enough savings, if you have access to other types of health insurance, I don't think you stay to win. That sounds really defeatist of me, especially as a person who really advocates for people-centered workplaces. But I also know that we live in capitalism and it's not always realistic that one employee is going to win, and I care so much more that you take care of yourself. And I wanna believe in some kind of workplace karma that if workplaces treat their people badly, they're not going to be sustainable. Those businesses are not going to be sustainable. So you don't need to keep sustaining it. You go somewhere else and take care of yourself. Because the burnout, the trauma, it's so hard, and I just think you deserve better than that. Oh, that's so hard to say though.

Krista: Yeah, I'm with AnnE on this one. I think like, I, I get why you might stay if you really have to. Um, I know there's a lot of people, especially right now in this marketplace that are holding tight to jobs that, that, you know, maybe they haven't had work trauma exactly, but are just not at a situation that they enjoy anymore, or ever enjoyed, I'm not sure. And they're holding tight to those jobs because of the way the world is right now and, and capitalism and all that. And I understand like why they would do that. Um, and at the same time, like that is a path to burnout if I have ever seen one. People really can really be changed by that experience of sustaining a slow and painful decline. Because if you know something, like if something bad has happened, like just the aftermath of that, like how, how a company responds, how, you know, whether that's how the power dynamics change, how the social dynamics have changed, like do people look at you differently? How do you react to that?

Um, there was a really interesting episode of HR Confessions. I don't know if you listened to this, with Kim Roher and Rebecca Taylor that talked about someone who had a really, they made a terrible mistake and accidentally showed something that people could not unsee. And that person ended up leaving a few months later, and I can imagine just a situation like that, like, you know, obviously that's not the same type of situation, but just like, you know, the company, like everybody looked at them differently, um, after that. And, and I, I think that can also happen with a complaint, especially something that might have been public or that somebody saw, or, you know, if there were witnesses or, or things like that. Or where, like there might be two sides of the story and maybe some people are on a different side of that story than you are. So I, I get that it can be really hard to stay, uh, or, or really hard to go if you feel like you don't have other choices. Um, but I would say living with a bad situation can often be worse for your mental health long term than living with the uncertainty of what could be different somewhere else. And we are often, we are primed as humans to like be reallyuncomfortable with uncertainty, like even more than bad situations. And I just, I just wanna encourage anybody that like the uncertainty of the unknown is better often, even if it doesn't feel like it will be.

[00:10:00] Claire: So then how do you move on with your life and deal with the idea that these buttheads who made your life so miserable are going to quote, get away with it. And we've talked about this a little bit with like, it's unsustainable, but when you are leaving a situation like that, the feelings are very, very big and unsustainable doesn't cover it. Question mark. 

AnnE: I wish I had a good answer to that. I think therapy is really helpful because I definitely have those, and, and therapy helps, which is, this is such a bad answer, uh, but we're not gonna win 'em all and I end up having what I need and this person gets to go on treating people the way they're treating people. That's not great, and there's only so much I can do, and I just try not to think about them that much. And when I do, I think I also try to remember that like multiple things can be true. Like they could have treated me in a way that was unacceptable. And maybe they've changed, maybe things are different. Can't guarantee that. But maybe things are better. I don't know. Um, but I can't waste my energy on that. And I'm gonna rant about it in therapy. I'm gonna rant about it all the time in our group chat. I think that's my other answer. That's what group chats are for. 

Krista: Yeah, like my therapist had taught me that like really the only thing you can control is how you react and how you cope. Um, and that's often feels really insufficient. Um, but it is what it is, which is, is why it feels so incomplete and unrealistic, but is often still and maybe an ideal that we can hold up that, like the Michelle Obama thing, like when ”when they go low, we go high.” You know, we can't control what they're gonna do, but we can control what we do and how, how we behave. And yeah, I hear you on like, depending on what it is, right? Like maybe there is a duty to report if it's something illegal or, or whatever. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here. We're talking about like they're just a jerk and they like, they haven't necessarily done anything that would be illegal, but it's, maybe it's microaggressions, maybe it's, you know, some, some other aspect of being a jerk that doesn't have a name yet. But, um, but yeah, you can only control what you can do. And feeling anxious about, or worrying about how other people are and why the injustice of the world is the way it is, um, is tough. Sometimes you gotta sit with it and sometimes you gotta let it go.

Claire: I just had, uh, a couple of experiences that are related kind of around this idea so that, that job, that I'm now realizing that we talked about in a different episode, but was today, at the time of recording, when, um, somebody sat me down and was like, obviously you and the boss don't get along and this is not gonna get better. Are you going to leave or are you going to have us like invite you to leave? And in that case, I chose to let them let me go so I could get the severance. But um, because there was an end in sight. I think it was the right choice to stay, but I was not eating, I was not sleeping. I was a wreck. And, and that job wasn't, wasn't good for me and I kinda had feelings afterwards.

Um, but I ran into somebody a couple weeks ago who was a vendor, um, at that company, and so knew the boss and knew me and knew a lot of these players, and she was just like, “yeah, that, that guy was kinda weird. Like, I didn't like him. Oh, I'm so glad to see you!” And it, it just, now that I was out of that situation years away from it, um, I see that like all of these people who didn't have a dog in the fight who didn't really, care about the power dynamics or anything, still saw that like I was a good person and they were happy to stay in touch with me. And they were happy that this person had decided not to stay in touch with them and kind of on the other side of that. I'm watching a friend right now who is in a similar situation where she's not eating, she's not sleeping, she's just totally flooded all the time. All she can talk about is how stressed she is and like she's got a good job. I understand that, but I, I just, for the amount of stress that she is going through every single time I'm talking to her, and now that I am the third party outside the situation, I, I can just so clearly see it isn't worth you're doing to yourself.

And I think if you can, anything that you can do to get that outside perspective, if it's talking to friends, if it's looking at other people who are going through something similar. Um, if it's getting the perspective of other trusted individuals who can tell you what they're seeing, um, I think that that can be really helpful to just like keep your center and understand that they have to wake up every day being their shitty selves, but you do not have to wake up every day and put up with that. 

[00:15:00] Krista: They don't have to live rent free in your head. 

Claire: Fo' sho.

AnnE: Absolutely.

Claire: So I guess, If you have been pipped, if you have been put on a performance improvement plan or, um, whatever they call it in your organization, if they call it anything at all, or if you are just a window sitter, um, and you are getting pushed out, uh, what would you recommend to folks that are in that position? 

Krista: I, mean, I, I wanna be clear that we have really only seen one–I have only seen one successful instance of a PIP working out in the, in both employee and employer's favor, to be clear. You should know what you're getting into that a PIP usually means that they're trying to fire you and they're trying to get the ducks in a row to justify that decision. So understanding, you know, where like, is this a battle you wanna fight? First of all, you know, maybe, maybe if, if, if they at least designed a PIP with some intentionality, like maybe there's a, a pot of gold that you can take instead.

And maybe that's a, a cleaner exit, knowing that the outcome might not change. But if you do wanna go for it, if you do wanna like try and improve according to their terms, like make sure that the terms are reasonable and actually discuss with them. Like you can bring up, I don't think that this is really actionable, or this is really measurable in the way that you might think it is. What are some ways that you suggest that we could rephrase this or understand it a little bit differently so that I make sure I understand my expectations clearly? So then you're really making it like an airtight agreement, about what needs to change. You may not be in the right head space to, to think that clearly about it, which is totally understandable. Um, but that's what happened in the case where it went really well and worked out nicely, is that the person kind of pushed back and said like, “Hey, I wanna make this work. But I also see these issues with how you're describing the improvements that need to be made.”

AnnE: Yeah, I agree. I think look at the PIP. Are those expectations going to set you up for success? Things that wouldn't set you up for success are if they don't give you any kind of timeline. If you have a week to make all of these changes, that's not setting you up for success. If one of the results is changing how someone else feels about you or changing someone else, you don't have control over that. That's not setting you up for success. So I think if the pip's not gonna set you up for success, you ask what the alternatives are. You ask for a package. And you bow out gracefully knowing that the alternative was not going to set you up for success. And you can do, you can manage your exit. You can make it look like you're leaving to do something else if you don't wanna say that you're fired. I think there's a lot of options there, but I agree with Krista. PIPs tend to be a way out. And if you already know you're on your way out, why go through something that may not set you up for success?

Claire: I kind of like wanna drop some more knowledge about how to negotiate for that package. 

AnnE: I want you to, too.

 [00:20:00] Claire: Um, which maybe could be a whole episode, but um. So I, I think when you see that it is an irreconcilable differences type of situation, the, the, PIP meeting is a good opportunity to, if you can keep your head and, and keep a level head to make your case for why you are having trouble meeting whatever these expectations are. And you can kind of go on the record. I, I wouldn't recommend being combative because if you're combative, you're probably not gonna get that package. But if, if you can negotiate it like a business deal, and point out the reasons why you feel like the company didn't set you up for success, um, they also would probably rather not fire you. They would probably rather have something that both parties have agreed to and so you do have a bargaining chip there and especially if you can, if you think it's unfair and you can make your, your case now before you have been terminated, there will be an opportunity for them to give you concessions, whereas like it is much, much harder to make those negotiations after you're being presented with the separation agreement.

Krista: Oh, that's so true because at that point, and here's just like what's happening on the backend–at that point, they've already talked to a lawyer. They've already gotten all of the like, paperwork reviewed by that lawyer. So, you know, it's expensive for them to go back and make changes to it. Uh, I mean, that doesn't mean it can't happen, but you know, to Claire's point, like the leverage is at its highest before that paperwork gets drawn up. 

Claire: And, and just to give a totally hypothetical example, that definitely never happened. Um, let's just say that somebody once was let go, from an organization. They'd only been there for a few months. Um. it was kind of a high pressure position that had had a lot of turnover, um, independent of this person, and they just, they weren't gonna make it. And so they were being let go sort of toward the end of the month. And this company had, uh, um, had a, you know, healthcare ends at the end of that month, and then their standard severance package had a month of COBRA subsidies. And, this person just said, that's not enough time for me to find another job, and my health insurance is $900 a month. And I took this job just a few months ago. I turned down other opportunities, and I just think that it is fair for my health insurance to go on for a little bit longer before I find another job.

And, I may or may not have given that person a few talking points, but they were successful. and, and so that's the sort of thing where if, if you can have the presence of mind to say, listen, when I took this job, there was a contract that like. I mean, maybe not a real contract, but sort of a social contract that certain of my needs would be taken care of in return for my time and effort that I'm spending at this job. Like I understand that it's not working out, but those needs are not going away, and you are breaking that social contract, that expectation that I, for working hard, will have these needs taken care of. And I would just like a little bit more consideration to find an alternative. And if, if you phrase it that way and you can manage to keep your, your emotions out of it, you would be surprised what you can, um, what you can negotiate for. 

Krista: Well, and also like. You know, there, there may be costs associated with that difference on, on the backend again, but those costs are not necessarily substantial compared to your costs, right? So, you know, an extra month of employee premiums by setting your termination date three business days later may not be that consequential compared to an extra month of COBRA subsidy that you might ask for instead, or might not, or like what you might pay for for COBRA yourself if that's not covered. And often those come out of different budgets also. So I don't know that companies, really, well. I'm not a finance person, but it, it feels like it's not as hard of an ask to me, to 

Claire: Yeah, and you can be creative too. I've seen people negotiate for early vesting, for example. 

Krista: Or their laptop…

Claire: yeah, their laptop. So it's, it's just if you have a legit reason for it, um, and you can make the case that I need my laptop to look for a job. I don't have another laptop, would you mind selling it to me at a discount? I'll wipe it. I'll work with IT. Um, and because you're working with them, they'll, they'll be a lot more willing to give you concessions. Whereas, if you are just coming at it combative and you've done me dirty and I'm gonna make you pay, um, then you know that adversarial stance probably isn't gonna get you as much as if you just worked with them.

[00:25:00] Krista: Yeah, it's hard to do, but it is possible. There's, um, I think, I can't remember if it's big feelings or the other book that Liz Fosslein and Molly Duffy wrote, um, it's really great. But anyway, it talks about like emotional regulation at work and, how like, basically that there are like tactics and strategies that you can use to help manage those feelings in a way that still preserves what opportunities and leverages that you might have to like advocate for yourself well in a situation like that, and you know, honestly, I think emotional regulation, emotional intelligence is like one of those superpowers that not everybody has. And it, it can often command a lot of respect for people to see that in, in an ask. So it's not just about asking well and not appearing combative. It's also that like the more emotionally intelligent you appear about the situation, the more reasonable your case may seem. Uh, and human, then the, the more likely it will be both respected and like really can, can turn things around in a way that like, maybe it hasn't changed the outcome, but it has in terms of you being let go, but it might change the perspective that everyone shares about that exit. 

Claire: Yeah. It's a very difficult time to give the decision makers the benefit of the doubt, um, and have compassion for whatever's going on in their head. But, um. If you can find it in yourself to approach it that way, um, you will probably get a better result. 

Krista: So does it feel like the takeaway of this is like, let assholes be assholes, but also get what you can get out of it?

Claire: Well, not in a black mail-y kind of way. Um,

Krista: Fair enough. 

Claire: Like 

Krista: That was an oversimplification. 

Claire: well, no, I mean, I think that like, it, one thing that HR gets a perspective on that a lot of people often don't is just that, humans are flawed. Like the person who's getting the shit end of the stick. Everybody sees that they're getting the shit end of the stick, but the company can't acknowledge fault. 

Krista: right. 

Claire: But if you can kind of sidestep the acknowledging fault part and say this is a situation that I am in right now. Is there something you can do to help my situation that I am in through no fault of anybody's here? And, and just, just show them that, I mean, I don't, I don't wanna call like emotional intelligence. Yes. And, and the word I'm coming up with is adult, which is probably not a fair word, but, um. If, if you can be dispassionate about it, um, being fired up is probably going to not work in your interests, I think is what I'm trying to say. 

Krista: Yeah. Well, and also like one thing to remember too is that there's what you, what you probably have not seen, that I see all the time, I don't know if Claire, if you've seen this too, is how emotionally dysregulated sometimes a manager can get about the decision that they're making to fire someone. 

Claire: uh, yes. Why, why, yes, I have seen that. 

Krista: So, you know, like you, you being the most regulated that you can be in that and dispassionate to Claire's point, like, you will look like such a bigger person, right? To everybody who has probably had some very different conversations behind the scenes about you. And that will motivate, I think, uh, an HR person to do the best that they can to to help you out.

Claire: And if it's one of those situations, you will also look like a credible witness, which might be scary for somebody who is in the position where they are having to not admit liability for somebody else's bad day. 

Krista: Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. Yeah. If you look like you would be strong enough to file a lawsuit that is not based on just your emotions, uh, yeah, they, they could be more motivated to, to support you and whatever way would make you feel better about signing away your right to sue. 

Claire: But again, extortion is not a good way to think about negotiating an exit. 

[00:30:00] Krista: I am not, I'm not, I wasn't suggesting extortion, to be clear. I just think it's negotiation. It's like, what, what can, what can you gain from a bad situation strategically? 

Claire: Yeah. 

Krista: In a way that that protects your peace as best as possible. And as hard as it is to see through whatever other feelings you might be feeling about how wronged you have been in that situation, if you can see through that fog, there is more that you can gain for yourself from the situation.

Claire: Yeah. you probably have more strategic leverage than legal leverage. 

Krista: Right, right.

Claire: Cool. Yeah, and sometimes people do wicked illegal things and they get away with it, and you should just protect your peace. 

Krista: Mm-hmm.

Krista: That's it for today's episode of HR Peep Show with your hosts, Claire Baker, AnnE Diemer, and me Krista Lane. Thank you for listening and stay tuned for future episodes covering both hot takes and practical advice to build sustainable people-driven companies. To view transcripts and full credits or find out more about us, go to hrpeepshow.com.