HR Peep Show
Three HR and Operations professionals-- Claire Baker (she/her), AnnE Diemer (she/her), and Krista Lane (she/her) bridge the gap between resources and humans, revealing both the deeply human mistakes employers make and how they suggest avoiding them.
HR Peep Show
S2, Ep5: Interviewing
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode of HR Peep Show, hosts AnnE Diemer, Claire Baker, and Krista Lane pull back the “HR curtain” on why job interviews often go badly and what makes them effective. They share horror stories of disorganized, disrespectful processes, highlighting how poor interview experiences can misrepresent the job. The conversation contrasts hazing-style brainteasers with intentional, role-relevant ways to see how candidates think, emphasizing structured interviews, clear rubrics, and preparation to reduce redundancy and mitigate bias (including the “violin behind the curtain” example). They also stress candidate experience details (scheduling, breaks, snacks, respect), recommend fewer questions in 30 minute interviews, regular breaks, and carefully scoped work samples that don’t exploit free labor, reinforcing that candidates are interviewing companies too. Tune in for practical advice and hot takes to help build sustainable, people-driven companies.
Thanks for listening!
To find episode transcripts, participate in future episodes or learn more about us and how we help companies do better, visit hrpeepshow.com. You can also follow the show on Instagram.
If you liked this episode, please be an amplifier and help us reach your colleagues or friends (or enemies, if they need to hear what we have to say!).
If you really liked this episode, you can buy us a coffee.
Interviewing - Show Notes & Transcript
Acknowledgments
This episode was produced by AnnE Diemer, and it is hosted by AnnE Diemer, Claire Baker, and Krista Lane. It was edited by AnnE Diemer and Krista Lane. Music was composed for the Royalty Free Music Library by Rik Pfenninger.
We also thank our friends who gave feedback on early takes of episode 1, and those we spoke to about making a podcast— especially Kamrin Klauschie, Kevin Landucci, and Jenna Lane for their invaluable expertise and advice.
Listener Support
Until we’re famous and sponsored, your support makes producing this podcast more sustainable. That can look like continuing to listen, sharing this podcast with colleagues, friends (or enemies who need it!), or buying us a coffee.
Additional Reading and References
Materials we recommend and/or links referenced in the episode, if you want to keep nerding out on this topic:
- The violin/orchestra study that we reference can be found here. However, it’s worth noting that this study was done in 1997, and published in 2000, and our statistical models and research design in general has been updated since then. So, it’s worth also referencing some of the studies from 2019 and later that address issues with the 1997 study:
Transcript
Krista: Welcome to HR Peep Show, where we pull back the curtain of life in human resources in the United States.
AnnE: I'm AnnE Diemer.
Claire: I'm Claire Baker.
Krista Lane: I'm Krista Lane, and we are your hosts. We may be new to podcasting, but not when it comes to people work. We are each fractional consultants at the intersection of people and operations with a collective several decades of experience, both in-house and consulting under our belts.
—---
AnnE Diemer: 00:26
Today, we're peeking behind the HR curtain to learn about job interviews. I've heard so many people talk about dreading interviews, and that's both being interviewed, but also running the interview. Sure, interviews might not be the most fun you have in a day, but it can be productive, effective time when it's done correctly. So today we're gonna pull back the HR curtain to talk about why interviews suck sometimes and how to change that. But we're starting with the sucking. So can one of you start me off with just a worst interview experience? Krista, I'm looking to you.
Krista Lane:
Oh, I got one. I got a good one. Okay, so my very first on-site interview with a tech company. Um, this was going into recruiting coordinator position, and I like had no idea what I was doing. So one of the recruiters, I think my first couple interviews went okay. And then the third interviewer, who was the second to last of the day, just like completely grilled me on like ridiculous trivia about the tech industry that I had no preparation whatsoever to answer and did not know off the top of my head how many employees XYZ Company had or what they were known for, or any other random facts um that were completely Googleable. So at some point I kind of pushed back and I told her, like, look, I don't know what you were expecting, but I have no prior experience in this industry and I have no like point of reference for your questions. Um so she just walked me out of the building um and was like, okay, I think we're done here. Thanks for your time. And I found out uh like maybe an hour later, um I had like left and I went home and I was like really upset because I didn't know why this had happened. I was like, how did we get here? Like, why did this happen this way? What could I have done differently? Um, I get a call from the manager of the team who was supposed to be my manager, who was like, What happened? Why'd you leave? And I was like, um, because this person walked me out and told me I was done for the day and I didn't know any different. And she's like, Well, now you have to come back because you haven't done your interview with the final VP of engineering. And I'm like, I like already had to get PTO for this interview, so it was annoying, and there wasn't much of it to go around. So I was like, if I if this doesn't work out and I need to use more PTO for this, I'm gonna be really put out by the whole thing. But I came back and the VP of Engineering, he was fine, but he was clearly really distracted. Um and this was, you know, pitched to me as an entry-level position. And I I even at some point I asked him, he was like on his phone the whole time. Um and so I was like, okay, well, like, why are you even interviewing entry-level candidates at this point? Like, you're clearly really busy. Oddly enough, I ended up actually taking the job. But uh, I would imagine that if I had done that interview process at a different point in my career, I would have run away screaming. So yeah, that's my story.
AnnE Diemer:
Wait. I want to know how did he answer that question where you asked, why are you even interviewing entry-level candidates?
Krista Lane:
He gave me um what sounded much better than what I will share, which uh was probably given to him by the PR team or something, um, about how he felt it was really important to like be the culture carrier of the organization. Uh and so it was like important to him that he like talked to every potential new hire at the on-site stage for his department. And our recruiting team reported to the engineering department, so he would have been my skip level boss.
Claire Baker:
I have a question. Yeah. You took the job, right?
Krista Lane:
I did.
Claire Baker:
Did it suck?
Krista Lane:
The job? No.
Claire Baker:
Interesting.
Krista Lane:
But the interview process was not remotely accurate to the job.
AnnE Diemer:
Interesting. Usually not the case. I I agree with Claire. Usually if the interview process sucks, the job is also going to suck.
Krista Lane:
I mean, there it's hard to say if I would feel that way now, but um, or you know, later in my career, but at the time it was so much better than the nonprofit performing arts. Yeah. And I had a lot, I was really craving autonomy, and um, they offered a lot of that. So I was very excited to basically be given a tech company budget and autonomy to build really cool programs.
Claire Baker:
Did you feel valued?
Krista Lane:
Not at first. Um once once they understood my skill set, uh, things escalated from there. Um and and I got I got really uh I I do believe I was I was valued at some point. I don't know that they really ever managed to make the salary commensurate with that value, but the company was not well known for paying most people very well. It was pretty scrappy.
AnnE Diemer:
So fair. I get that. And it's interesting because I said like if the interview process sucks, the job's probably going to suck. But as I was thinking about this question, I thought about a time when I was a recruiting coordinator and I ran a really bad interview process for a candidate. This candidate traveled to San Francisco for the interviews. And then we didn't have a clear like exactly what this job was going to be. And so everyone who was interviewing the candidate that day didn't have a clear set of questions. And then midway through the interviewer, the hiring manager comes to me and says, We need to add on these four people, but they're not available today. So this person has to interview tomorrow. And I'm like, this person came in from out of town. They're flying back tomorrow. And then the hiring manager said, Change their flight. They're interviewing again tomorrow. And I did it. And this person did end up taking the job and they ended up being really successful at the organization. But it is something that stands out to me as a really bad candidate experience where I didn't set that candidate up for success, nor did I set the hiring up for success. And I think even when we hired this person, the role that they came in to do was not the role they were doing six months later. They ended up shifting and doing something else. And I think that is reflective of a hiring process that like wasn't very well thought through.
Claire Baker:
So lesson is kidnapping bad.
AnnE Diemer:
Yes. That's a great lesson to learn from this. Got it. Don't kidnap people as part of your interview process and not let them go home. That's bad. Yeah. Yeah. But also don't walk them out in the middle of the interview when you don't have a reason to. Don't do that either.
Krista Lane:
Oh, did I even tell you that she it turned out that she thought she was interviewing me for a different role?
Claire Baker:
I kind of was wondering that you were telling the story.
Krista Lane:
Yeah. So she like she walked, she walked… Sorry, I that was a that was kind of a critical part of the story. Yeah. Turns out she thought that I was interviewing for a completely different role that did require experience and a knowledge base. Not that I think her particular strategy was very sound for that, for even that role now that I know more about it, but it made a lot more sense when she explained that. Um, but I was still so annoyed with how she did it and how annoyed she was with me for having been such a dud candidate for what she thought she was interviewing for, that um I did ask how closely I had to work with her when I accepted that.
AnnE Diemer:
That's fair. I wouldn't want to work with someone who walked me out. And like I don't I'm gonna tune the weeds to this, but don't you have to like ask someone before you just decide to walk a candidate out? That's a wild decision for one interviewer to make.
Krista Lane:
Well yeah…
Claire Baker:
She's usually the last one in the loop, though. Because often those those panels are like, you know, one, two, three, four, and they always go in the same order.
Krista Lane:
She was the most senior person at the time on the team. So it's possible, and she was right before like she knew who was next, right? Um in the in the panel. So it's possible she was like, oh, this person will not want to talk with her. I gotta get rid of her or something. I don't know.
AnnE Diemer:
I mean not ideal. I'm glad it worked out. In in both cases, in my in my story too, is like that hire did end up working out, and sometimes it happens. But I do want to emphasize that that's a sometimes thing. In general, I want places to have more thorough hiring processes. Well, where things like this don't happen.
Krista Lane:
Yeah. And I think part of that is that like I think in both cases, you know, myself and this other candidate you're describing, like, succeeded despite, not because of anything that the company did, right? Yes. Um, which I think just means that there's so many candidates we could have enjoyed meeting and hiring if we had actually been intentional about how we build the process. Nobody wants to be hazed as part of their interview. Seriously.
AnnE Diemer:
And yet so many companies do it. I was thinking about the stereotypical interview, how many ping pong balls fit in a bus? And to me, that is just a hazing question. I know, I know, I know. Everyone's gonna tell you it shows how you think and how you problem solve.
Krista Lane:
Does it?
AnnE Diemer:
I don't think so.
Krista Lane:
I don't think so either.
AnnE Diemer:
I think it's hazing.
Claire Baker:
I mean, how many events are you having with buses full of ping pong balls?
AnnE Diemer:
Exactly. Is it relevant to the role? No.
Krista Lane:
I think that that that that particular type of questioning, uh, the intentions are supposed to be about like whether you understand scale, which can be useful for like some software roles where you have to be thinking about like how much data this or bandwidth or whatever this thing takes. I don't know how it works. Um, but but I know that there are things where like there's 10x or 100x type errors that happen because someone didn't quite understand scale. Um, so I can see how there might be some very minimal application at certain levels for that type of question, but it's so obscure. And also at this point, that particular question is so dated. I I think there's probably dozens of of better ways to add to get to that kind of knowledge if you need to know how someone thinks at scale.
Claire Baker:
Well, I will say, and this won't surprise either of you, um, but I will purposely throw people off balance in an interview, not in a way that is meant, like I'm not trolling them or anything. And if you've been in a meeting with me, you know that like this is just something I do, and I kind of can't help it. But but I am sort of calculating when I do it because an interview is such a controlled experience, and it's really hard to see people like what people are gonna be like day to day. And and so, and I will be interested to hear because you both have more experience in interviewing than I do, and maybe I'm just a horrible person for doing this to people, but but I just like I try to find ways to just throw them off balance so that like they can engage with me like it's a real conversation. And I just find that one eventually like people will relax a little bit once they see that they can sort of like step out of that really polished persona and be themselves, and it's like welcome, but also kind of it uh uh it breaks through that that really polished shell sometimes. And um I I think you have to be careful when you're doing it, but I find when I'm interviewing somebody that it's actually like really useful signal for me. And usually that is the thing that I find that that my feedback is is often like focused on. Like I'm I'm f giving feedback on the things I'm supposed to be giving feedback on, but it is filtered through the lens of this is how somebody reacted when they weren't able to plan their response.
AnnE Diemer:
I think that's valid. I think that makes sense. And like what I'm hearing there is you're not trying to, I don't know, trick someone. You're trying to demonstrate what would actually happen in a work environment. Like it feels directly related to the role, whereas ping pong balls doesn't feel directly related to the role. So I feel like maybe that's the difference or the distinction there. Like I've definitely I wrote an interview for recruiting coordinators, and we had a list of five things and said, here are five things that are on your to-do list. Talk me through how you would prioritize them. I'm not telling you anything more than what's on that page. They prioritized those five. And then I said, now I'm going to intentionally throw you off by giving you more information and asking how that additional information would reprioritize that list for you. And so I like, I told them I'm gonna throw you off because that's what happens every day in a recruiting coordinator's world. And so it was built into the interview. How are you going to respond to these things? And so I think there is a space for that in interviews. When it comes from an intentional place that's directly related to the role, when you're trying to trap someone, that doesn't feel like it's helping the candidate, nor does it feel like it's helping the organization. You know?
Claire Baker:
Yeah, yeah. It cannot, it cannot be at their expense. Like it, it must be something that lifts them up. But I I think if you just you come up with something that they're just not expecting. And, you know, maybe this is maybe this is something that just has to come intuitively. But I had an interview. This is somebody that you both know that I love working with. And they were nervous, and I could tell that they were nervous. And I can't even remember what it was, but you know, they were wearing a blazer and stuff, but it was a remote interview. And I just said something about, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't really matter. Oh gosh, how did I say it? It was like, it doesn't really matter if you're doing like these other things that don't matter as long as payroll gets submitted on time and it's accurate. And I said something like, you could be wearing pajama pants right now, for all I know, and it wouldn't matter. And they just sort of like froze, and I was like, I'm wearing pajama pants, and I lifted up my leg and like there were the pajama pants and the bunny slippers. And I was like, you know, can we work together? And and I mean, in that I already had a lot of signal that like I could make that risk and things like that. But that's just an example that comes to mind of times when when you just come up with something that's like totally off the wall and it it just breaks through the script in a way that also, I mean, lets people know that they can be themselves. Um, and I I think that a lot of people perform better when they when they know that and they don't feel like they're being tested.
Krista Lane:
Yeah. I yeah, I see a lot of care in the intention that you put behind that. Like it's not just about how do they react. It's also like, how can I make this person feel more comfortable? Would they feel more comfortable with me being myself in this space? So that's cool. I like that example.
AnnE Diemer:
And that's a great lead into what I wanted to talk about next, which is what are the components of a good interview? And what I'm hearing from you, Claire, is one of the components of a good interview for both the candidate and to benefit the organization is just being humans together in the same way that we will be in the role. Being able to be our authentic selves, I think is a really important standard to set. And it's easier for the candidate to do if they know the interviewer is doing it. And you were kind of demonstrating that. What are some other components of a good interview for both the candidate and that are going to benefit the company?
Krista Lane:
I mean, preparing is a it's one of those like low-hanging fruits.
AnnE Diemer:
Oh, is knowing the role that I'm interviewing a candidate for is that important?
Krista Lane:
That could be good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
AnnE Diemer:
Noted.
Krista Lane:
Knowing knowing which role you're interviewing for. Uh, so if you're an interviewer, I like I think prep is is true for both interviewers and candidates. But you know, for on the interviewer side, like knowing what role you're doing, you know, if you have a structured interview process, having a sense of the rubric, like what are the areas of responsibility that your interview is covering? Sometimes, you know, you are only going to be focusing on like some, you know, three of seven potential areas that are important for a candidate, um, in which case, like you want to know what those areas really are and like what does a great candidate look like for the level that you're hiring for too.
AnnE Diemer:
Can I pause you there? Yeah, please. You said a couple words there that I want to make sure we're pulling back the HR curtain on. You said structured interview and you said rubric. Yeah. Can you tell me more about those?
Claire Baker:
And can and what a great candidate looks like as well.
Krista Lane:
Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So structured interviews are a way that it's kind of like a methodology for interviewing and building an interview process that has, well, that has like a named structure to it. So you might say, like, okay, we're gonna have the hiring manager do the first interviewer, first interviews, and then we're gonna have a team member do the second interviews, and then we're gonna have an on-site interview or a final panel where we have like sequential interviews back to back on the same day. Or maybe they're spread out with a break or something like that. But you know, you decide what the plan is, and then you stick to that plan. The rubric is a key part of that because you're assigning which part of the interview you want or which what you're a valid, what each each interview is accomplishing. So, you know, for the hiring manager interview, like, yes, that's the first contact. They're not going to make a full decision right away, but like they have a lot of information that they can share with the candidate and they can pretty quickly decide whether or not they can work with that person well enough to like move forward to making sure that they have the technical chops to do the job. And then they give the technical chops, you know, assessment to the technical interviewer, right? And that person is gonna take on that job. That way you don't have like six interviews that are all asking you the same thing, and then nobody has enough signal on some other part that nobody asked you about that turned out to be important to know.
AnnE Diemer:
Got it. Okay, so let's say I'm being interviewed for a podcast producer position, and Claire and Krista are going to interview me and they're gonna run a structured interview format. So, in that structured interview format, there's going to be a rubric and it's gonna look at things like can she do editing? Can she put together an outline? And those would be the rubric categories. And then Krista will get on an interview with me and ask me questions specifically about editing, because that's kind of her area of expertise. And then Claire would get on a different interview, and that would be questions about creating an outline, creating content. And then what would a good candidate look like for this role? And how would you use the rubric to identify that?
Krista Lane:
Yeah. So using the rubric, I think tells you what a good candidate could look like. I think, you know, it kind of goes back to the job description too. Um, I really think they're all like an encompassing system, like an ecosystem, right? And it's hard to kind of do one piece without the other. But if you have a good job description that is like formatted in a way that is really clear about the impact of the role and what you're expecting from a solid candidate, what they can learn on the job, what they have to bring with them, what they have to be able to like teach somebody and like have expertise in. You know, if you're really clear about that, then like the rubric part actually becomes really easy. And then also knowing what a good candidate looks like also becomes easy because it's not just about the proxies for what a good candidate is, right? It's not about a degree, it's not about a particular certificate. It's more about what skills or what impact can they have. And if they can't see themselves having that impact, then they're probably not a great fit.
AnnE Diemer:
Okay. We're grounded, we understand kind of the concept. Context that this is all happening in. And I think maybe like an implicit that's worth making explicit thing with structured interviews is coming in with that structure and that focus creates a better process for the candidates too, because it's just a little, everything's just a little bit clearer of what you're supposed to focus on. And I think candidates just tend to feel a little bit more set up for success when it's that focused. Does that sound right?
Krista Lane:
Yeah, I think it's really about setting clear expectations for everybody involved, right? Like interviewers are often really distracted. This is not their full-time job. And, you know, although I'm trying to change this in the clients that I work with, like not everybody considers interviewing even a performance factor. So there's no reason for the for the interviewer to really want to do a good job at this, other than, you know, wanting to help build their teams. Like it's very altruistic.
AnnE Diemer:
Yeah.
Krista Lane:
So they're often coming at this as like the last priority. Like they're like, oh, I have to get this done. It's like tacked onto my day. It's this thing that I have to make sure I get done. So it feels more like a chore than a than an exciting opportunity. That's not universal, of course. Um, certainly I've worked in great cultures where that isn't the case, where it's a privilege to interview and to be part of that process. Um, and there's training and support. But but yeah, this is what it's all about. It's like just having really clear expectations for both the interviewers and the candidates. Candidates can also prep. I didn't really talk about that in my previous answer, but we'll get there. We're gonna get to that. Uh in any case, the um yeah, those clear expectations, man, they're great for everybody.
Claire Baker:
I I feel like we need to talk about the violin test thing. Do you guys know what I'm talking about?
Krista Lane:
I do not.
AnnE Diemer:
I don't know what that is, so I definitely think we should.
Claire Baker:
You've heard of it. So like this was like, I don't know, the foundational study in this area where it was like the 1950s and the I don't know, insert city orchestra, let's just say it was London, where they had mostly men on the orchestra and they had people interview behind a curtain, and female violinists were hired at like some ridiculous rate higher when the interviewers were only listening to them play rather than seeing them as they were evaluating them. And and I think like the the structured rubric, you don't want it necessarily to be robotic, but the rubric is just to focus people away from those implicit biases. We all have them. And and to focus them away from where their mind is naturally going to go from like the most likable candidate or the most like me candidate to this is what exactly we're looking for, and just just focus in a different area. And it it really does help with a lot of those implicit biases, unconscious biases, not necessarily that any of us are evil people, but it just rounds out the team a lot better because sometimes the best candidate is not the one you thought you were looking for.
AnnE Diemer:
I think that's I like that example and I'd forgotten about that study, but that's a good one. And what that violin study does is that curtain that is a passive bias mitigation. So the interviewers are not having to do anything different to have some bias mitigated there. What we're doing with rubrics is we're doing active bias mitigation. And so we're giving people some like very clear things that we're adhering to so that you can check your own biases. And I get that question all the time. People ask, well, let's let's block out the name, let's let's block out people's voices, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, no, let's not do that. The the passive bias mitigation can be helpful in some circumstances, but it can also be dehumanizing in others. It can be creating a barrier between folks that we don't want to create. Whereas a rubric, that's gonna give you an active way to mitigate your biases and really make sure you're hiring the right person for the role based on the skills and qualities they're bringing.
Krista Lane:
Yeah, I think it just gives you like guardrails that don't let you stray too far into like, let's get a beer or like the vibes are off or not. And like the to be clear, like intuition and those like kind of gut or vibe check signals aren't irrelevant, but they do require interrogation and reflection. What is it that makes this person easier to connect with? What is it that makes this person harder to connect with on a personal level? What does that say about, you know, what what could this person be adding to the conversation that is not already shared or within the collective conversation you're having at your company? Yeah, add, not fit is the other phrase.
AnnE Diemer:
Add I love not fit. We could do a whole episode on that, but we won't. Well, we will. We will just do it another time. But Krista, you mentioned that you talked about how interviewers can prepare for their interviews in a structured interview environment. What advice or tips do you have for candidates as they're preparing for the interview? Obviously, there's only so much preparation you can do. You don't know exactly what you're getting into, but there is preparation you can do. And it's not just the STAR method, although I think that's a good starting point. What should candidates be thinking about?
Krista Lane:
Well, okay, so I'm I am literally writing a book about this. So keep an eye out for that. Um, it'll be free for anybody who asks. But, you know, I think the the really shortest answer I can offer um is think about like what information is available to you, or what information can you go find to prepare? Right. So in a structured interview process, you'll kind of know that that has happened because you'll probably get a lot of information sent to you from the company that says, like, here is what you can expect. Maybe it's who you'll be interviewing with, maybe it's the role that you'll be interviewing with if they don't have a person assigned yet. Maybe it's um here is an interview guide that we wrote for you. Anything like that that they send you in advance about to set those expectations, I would read thoroughly and make sure that I understand. And feel and if you have questions about it, feel free to ask them. There's, you know, they may not get back to you, but if you don't ask, then you don't know. You know, and then how else can you like find other information, whether that be primary sources, like what uh what the website says about different things, um, what kinds of, you know, and maybe secondary sources on like what the internet says about this company or about their process. Different roles can have really different processes. So I wouldn't take too much, you know, if they're like the sales process is awful and you're not interviewing for a sales role, that may not be very relevant to you. But yeah, think about like what information you can get in advance, how you might present yourself. You might want to practice what that looks like, um, whether that's recording yourself. Um, I know that can sound really uncomfortable, but I will say, as someone who started making a podcast this last year, it really helps to practice. Um, it really helps you get a lot more comfortable with yourself on camera or on a microphone.
Claire Baker:
You've been practicing?
Krista Lane:
I mean, the podcast is practice, right? But we forced ourselves to do it. AnnE, you you are muted, so you didn't answer.
AnnE Diemer:
Okay. I said we're better now than we used to be, but I said it while muted, so we're not that much better than we used to be. Noted.
Krista Lane:
Fair enough. In any case, yeah, there's a lot you can do to prep it, just depends on what part of the interview process you're you're in. I think it's also really important to know what you're looking for too, to the same extent that companies need to spend time thinking about what the ideal candidate might look like, whether and not what they look like literally, but what they're what possibilities they have for what they need from that role. I think candidates need to do the same thing for what kind of companies or what kind of roles they would be interested in. And having that kind of self-knowledge going into it will make it really easy to know whether or not you've found a really great opportunity that you want to put more effort into pursuing, um, or if it's something that you know you aren't as interested in and maybe you don't need as much, and then you don't have to waste your time, which is a bummer.
AnnE Diemer:
Key, absolutely key. Okay. I want us to finish up with a couple not really hot takes, not really lightning round, but a couple quick questions. Claire.
Claire Baker:
I have something to say.
AnnE Diemer:
I want to hear what you have to say.
Claire Baker:
that I did not prepare us for. But I I also like you were talking about the interview prep packet and things like that. And I I think that the part of interviews that people always discount is the candidate experience. And just things like how easy is it to schedule? And does like, do people show up on time? Is it clear that it was prioritized in their schedule? When they show up, are you getting them something to drink like they're a VIP? Are you like scheduling in five-minute breaks between interviews so they can go to the bathroom? If they're gonna be there for a meal, are you asking about dietary restrictions ahead of time? And I have worked at a lot of really early stage startups where we did not have the budget to be competitive on salary. And we punched above our weight because we were treating people like we really valued them and we really wanted them to be part of the team. And for people who were maybe like those more expensive hires and stuff, like certainly it helped. But also when you are interviewing that entry-level candidate as well, I think it it shows them that we treat people here with respect, not just you, but you're expected to treat other people with respect. You're expected to treat your work seriously. And anybody that you interact with in your work, you're you're to treat them like they are serious people. And and with your interview, Krista, where they like walked you out, or um Yeah, I I just I have been in enough interviews where they just haven't taken the care with those things. And for me, I'm just like, no, I'm good. I that just gives me enough signal on what you think about your talent that I don't like. It tells me what it's gonna be like to ask for more money. It tells me what it's gonna be like to like when I'm on PTO, how much time am I gonna be on my phone? Like, are they going to kidnap me for a business trip or something? And um, I I just think that like people don't put thought into it and they don't realize how much signal's coming through.
Krista Lane:
Oh, that's so true. I I'm I love Candidate Experience. You know.
Claire Baker:
I do. I learned everything from you might have heard of her. Um, this this great woman named Krista Lane. Everything I know, I learned from her.
Krista Lane:
Well, and and it's it's not just about like intentions, it's also about whether you're consistent about it, right? Like I've also had interview experiences at early stage startups where what someone told me in advance was not what happened in person. And some wires got crossed. And sure that can happen maybe once in a while, but if that's consistently happening or, you know, there's it like it just sends a dysfunctional signal that we're not sure. That was also for a job I took, so I don't know what that says about me. I'm just very patient.
AnnE Diemer:
Well, and you know, you're in a lot of these roles, you're coming in to improve the process. So there's a bit of like a biased perspective here is like you're learning about what you're going to end up working on eventually.
Krista Lane:
That is so true.
Claire Baker:
And you can tell when it's like, oh, they didn't know. Yeah. Um, like the difference between we don't respect people unless we're paying them and like we're doing our best, but we're still working it out. Yeah. That's that's fair.
AnnE Diemer:
Okay. I want to transition us to something. A couple of the like common questions I know like are out there about interviewing. Let's like give our version of the answers. We're gonna try to keep them short and sweet, but I know these are questions a lot of people wonder. So my first one is how many questions should an interviewer plan to ask in a 30-minute interview?
Claire Baker:
Half as many as you think. Minus two.
AnnE Diemer:
I like that answer actually.
Krista Lane:
Krista, what do you say? I think you have a you have a long list of prepared possible questions, depending on the direction it goes, but expect to ask like no more than five. Agreed. And that's only if they're giving you short answers.
AnnE Diemer:
Yeah, those those gotta be pretty efficient because you also want to leave time for the candidate to ask questions too, because that's gonna help inform your decision and will definitely help inform theirs. So people who are trying to ask 10 questions in a 30-minute interview, stop it. Stop it right now.
Krista Lane:
It's not a lightning round. It's not working.
AnnE Diemer:
It's not a lightning round, just like this. Not a lightning round. Okay. Claire alluded to this, but let's get explicit about it. How many interviews can you have in a row before you give the candidate a break? And this can be for remote interviews or in-person interviews.
Claire Baker: Two.
AnnE Diemer:
Yeah. I've seen I would say maybe max three if they're 30-minute interviews, like maybe an hour and a half. Ugh, even still. Yeah.
Krista Lane:
That's a lot. Yeah, it depends on the length of the interview, but like, yeah, no more than 90 minutes before break, like of time passing. Absolutely. And it should be a real break. It shouldn't be like, now let's go to lunch as a group, and then it's another group interview. Like, no, it should be like a 15-minute break by yourself or whatever it is that you need to do to recharge.
AnnE Diemer:
Yeah. Let them sit alone. If they want to. If they want to be kept company, sure. But give people breaks. Interviewing is a lot.
Krista Lane:
And snacks.
AnnE Diemer:
Okay. And snacks.
Krista Lane:
If it's if it's in person, right. And honestly, I think it could be great experience, candidate experience, if you send them like snacks or a gift card or something for a remote interview too.
AnnE Diemer:
I agree.
Claire Baker:
That's a little weird. Is it? I think so. I mean, I hate people coming to my door. Oh. That's fair.
Krista Lane:
I wouldn't do it for like first interviews or anything. This like final stage, like we really like you. And even then it would probably be like a digital gift card. It wouldn't even be, you know?
AnnE Diemer:
Yeah. I mean We'll workshop that one. Yeah, we can. We'll think about that one. Not all ideas are perfect, but it's good to like think out loud about these things. Okay, last question. What do you think about projects, work samples, tests as part of the interview process?
Krista Lane:
It can be fine if it's deeply intentional.
AnnE Diemer:
What does that mean, deeply intentional?
Krista Lane:
Like if you've actually thought it through and not uh the the thing you're trying to avoid is exploiting labor for free. Yep. So if you're going to have a project, you need to have really tightly scoped guidelines about it so that it's clearly not going to be used in the company's work. You're not asking them to end like you maybe you're asking them to answer a real problem, but it's a real problem that you've already answered. So it's not something that they're gonna feel like, oh, but the company just like used all my work and didn't give me a job. Or you pay them, but even then I'm like, eh, that gets complicated too. So I think it's viable, but it needs to be intentional.
Claire Baker:
I agree. Yeah, I think I I mean, I think it is more useful than a practical interview a lot of times, and pay them for it or make it some totally surreal thing. But yeah, it's way better to actually see their work than have them talk about their work. Yeah.
AnnE Diemer:
Yeah, you gotta find that balance. It also helps the candidate get to know the role and what will be expected of them as well. So there's helpful things. But I had a friend who did an interview process recently, and they asked her to do a project where she had to build out like an entire board plan of how the board was gonna be engaged in all of these different ways. Oh no. She submitted it to them. It was probably four or five pages. She submitted it to them. Then she did her on-site interview. They did not ask her one question about this entire project that she did. Oh. And then she was rejected like three days later.
Krista Lane:
Oh. No.
AnnE Diemer:
And they didn't say anything about the project, but they still have it. And I feel so much rage every time I think about this.
Claire Baker:
It should not take more than an hour. Yes. That is rude to give somebody like a seven-hour project.
Krista Lane:
And people need time to schedule it into their day. Like it's it's not, you can't be like, you have 24 hours, here you go. You can be like, you have 24 hours from the time that you click go or something, but giving them, you know, a week to do it or something like that, or even just a few days is so much better because people have lives and other interviews and other stuff going on.
AnnE Diemer:
Yeah. And I think setting expectations for how long it should take, like when I do written projects for clients and when I design written projects for clients, I usually say like, we expect you to spend no more than two hours total on this. If it feels like you're spending more, please reach out to us because that means we might have not explained something. Well, like I try to take that on us so that we're setting really clear boundaries and we're not just asking for absurd amounts of work from candidates. That often goes unpaid.
Krista Lane:
Yeah.
AnnE Diemer:
Okay. A lot that we've learned here. We learned when we peeked behind the curtain that a little preparation goes a long way. And it's on the organization to design an interview process that sets candidates up for success when they interview. And that's also going to result in a better hire for the organizations. And candidates have an important role too. Whenever possible, they need to be asking questions about the role and the organization to see how it aligns with their values and what they're looking for. Because candidates are interviewing the company as much as the company is interviewing them. And ideally, we want to find a mutual fit that's what's going to work best for everyone. And to do that, it requires putting a lot of intention into the process. This is one of the most important things companies do is hiring. Let's do it well.
—--
Krista: That's it for today's episode of HR Peep Show with your hosts, Claire Baker, AnnE Diemer, and me Krista Lane. Thank you for listening and stay tuned for future episodes covering both hot takes and practical advice to build sustainable people-driven companies. To view transcripts and full credits or find out more about us, go to hrpeepshow.com.