Smart Freight Conversations
Welcome to the Smart Freight Conversations!
Our mission is to create world-class educational content and learning experiences for people at all levels of business, providing them access to practical, informative, and actionable learning to enhance their decarbonization efforts. Our podcast covers a wide range of topics related to that, and each episode features in-depth discussions with subject matter experts who share their insights and practical tips to help you decarbonize your logistics and freight operations.
For more information, visit:
Smart Freight Conversations
Episode 32 | The Catalyst Series: Scaling Sustainable Aviation Fuel Through Collaboration Between Neste and Finnair
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
No single company can scale sustainable aviation fuel on its own.
In this episode of Smart Freight Conversations: The Catalyst Series, Andy Golding, Director Strategic Services at Smart Freight Centre, sits down with Joerg Huebeler (Neste) and Tarja Koski (Finnair) to discuss what five years of partnership between a fuel producer and an airline looks like, and what it takes to scale sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) across the industry.
Topics covered:
- Partnerships like this one are what make solutions like SAF applicable across the value chain.
- Finnair has doubled its SAF usage every year since 2023, reaching 1.6% of total fuel burn in 2025.
- Neste aims to help customers save 20 million tons of CO2 emissions by 2030.
- Standardization and regulation will be the next major driver of adoption.
Learn more about sustainable aviation fuel and freight decarbonization:
https://academy.smartfreightcentre.org/aviation?utm_source=buzzsprout&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=educational+media
Learn more about SFC: https://smartfreightcentre.org/en/
Follow us on social media:
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/smart-freight-centre/
Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/smartfreightcentre.bsky.social
Buzzsprout https://smartfreightconversations.buzzsprout.com
Hello and welcome to another episode of Smart Freight Conversations, where we share interesting and important insights and updates on freight decarbonization and the drive towards a zero emissions logistics industry. I'm Andy Golding, Director of Strategic Services here at Smart Freight Center, or SFC, as you'll hear us call it, and I'm your host for today. In this episode, we're exploring how collaboration between fuel producers and airlines is accelerating the adoption of sustainable aviation fuel and what it takes to really scale these solutions across the air freight ecosystem. Whether you're working on emissions reductions in aviation or you're looking to better understand solutions like SAF and how these solutions are brought to the market, this conversation is going to offer practical insights at how partnerships can really turn ambition into action. Joining me for this episode, I have Jörg Hübler, who is the head of Global Accounts, Renewable Fuels and Solutions at Neste, and we have Taria Koski, Senior Sustainability Manager at Finair. Jörg, Taria, it is great to have both of you here with us today. Let's drive in to today's episode. And maybe you could start off by telling us a little bit about Neste and Finair, your core activities, and why you're on the couch together today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. So I'm Taria Koski, as uh mentioned, I'm senior sustainability manager at Finair. And um Finair is an airline, obviously, and uh we are based in Finland. We are a bit over 100 years old, and we serve a bit over 100 destinations. And uh in terms of uh cargo and logistics, um we have um a white body fleet that operates mainly to um Asia and uh North America, uh where we carry a lot of uh Delhi cargo. Our A350 fleet is very uh new, beautiful. The average age is uh eight years, and um we also the official airline of uh Santa Claus, if you didn't know. And um, on my um specific responsibility area, I'm uh looking after the uh customer engagement part uh when it comes to um sustainability solutions. So uh covering uh cargo, corporate travelers, but also um our um leisure customers. Great to be here. Great to have you, Jörg.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks for having us. Thanks for having that dialogue. I mean, uh we can only win together in this challenge ahead of us, fighting climate change. What we as NASA provide is we're not yet 100 years old, founded in 1948, so still have some history, but we have been early movers, early adapters on that change to go into renewables. Um we're currently expanding our production capacities, and what we basically provide to our customers are renewable fuel solutions which help to reduce the carbon footprint of our customers and their customers' customers. So, and this basically on the road side as well as on the aviation side. Uh, and this is where, of course, the emission derived from fuel being used in aircrafts has an heavy impact to airlines. That's why we are, I think, sitting here together and have a common sense of how can we get that carbon footprint down together?
SPEAKER_02Fuel producer, airline, decarbonization conversation, let's do it.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02So, from a market and customer perspective, you both do different things, you have different objectives, but it would be really nice to understand from each of your perspectives when it comes to a decarbonization achievement. What are some of the achievements that you've had in really moving the needle?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so of course, um uh being an airline, the uh carbon footprint comes from our um uh flight operations, and uh there what we can basically do uh to reduce the um fossil footprint is to reduce the weight, uh reduce the fuel burn, um, and then uh go for the renewable auctions. And uh this is uh obviously where um our cooperation with Neste also uh comes into the play very uh heavily. And um uh perhaps if I talk a bit about the uh reducing weight part, it's um for an airline uh fuel burn is also a cost item. So um we are doing uh what we can uh to reduce the weight that we're flying around. And um uh we call this work the weight and fuel uh work, where we then talk about you know the um uh fleet modernization, how much potable water we load, um how do we build the cargo um pallets, for example, so that the materials are as light as possible. Uh that reduces the um fossil footprint already, and then together with our partners, both on the um supplier side, but then also on the customer side, um increasing the use of renewables uh is key.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but but I mean you're still using fuel, right? So we this is um and this is where if if you optimize that efficiency with the quite a new fleet with optimization of multiple facets factors, um you still need fuel, and this is basically where we kick in uh with providing uh in a reliable way uh fuels that can reduce up to 80% in the aviation, the carbon footprint. Um, that's basically where we kick in on a reliable way, and then uh we are producing this basically on a global scale. So Nesta is available with global refinery footprints, and this is what helps us then also to support aviation customers in multiple hubs in multiple areas across the globe, because these aviation businesses per definition a global business, and then we need to have access to those solutions on a global scale. So this is basically what we where we basically jump in and finding solutions.
SPEAKER_02And I think this is the fact that you're on the couch together is a perfect illustration of collaboration in action, and I would love to understand a little bit more about this collaboration and the work that Neste and FNER are doing together.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and I think uh we have a long history. I mean, we've been working uh together since I don't even know when, but for a very long time. Um, and uh with the sustainable uh aviation fuel side already over five years. And we both Finland-based companies, uh we uh share the same values, we have a very uh close relationship, and I think uh that is very important in this uh nascent uh industry where we're all uh still learning.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's matching values, I would I would say. So two companies originated in Finland with a long history, long track record. Um, and I think we have been an early mover in scaling up the renewables production. Um, and of course, you know, these types of partnerships are quite relevant to showcase what's possible because uh Nestor alone uh cannot conquer that and also Finair, but I think this is really one of these examples where one-on-was one-on-one basically is more than two, where we can showcase that these solutions are applicable throughout the value chain, that they are here and now and to be used as we speak, basically. And this is nothing what we need to wait for, we just push it down the road. Um, this is very necessary that the product is also being used and showcase that it works, right? This is where the the benefit of that partnership kicks in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so and that of course at the end of the day, the uh the target is uh shared. We just want to lower the fossil carbon footprint of uh of aviation and do it for the world and for our customers, for our joint customers as well.
SPEAKER_00And and maybe one funny fact to mention that I mean Neste has been producing renewable aviation fuel since 2011. We're now in 2026 and already still educate and talk about that that solution gets adapted. Um, so we have been heavily investing in that solution going forward, but you see that we alone we cannot change the game. So this needs a much wider perception, and also institutions like the Smart Freight Center are quite relevant to share the news and make people confident and the solutions which are already available.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I think there's so many important points in that. Firstly, that no organization can decarbonize alone. This is a collaborative journey, and the only way that we can collaborate is if we come together and have these conversations and explore the opportunities and educate ourselves on what actually exists as a possibility. And I do think that that is really the magic of SFC of Smart Freight Center is that SFC can bring together shippers, carriers, logistics service providers, fuel producers, tool providers, policy makers, institutions, governments, all of the parties that need to actually be at the table to have the conversation. Um, and then as a consequence, we get to have cool conversations like this one with you guys to really learn about what is actually, you know, practical examples of how this collaboration is taking place on the ground. So with that in mind, you represent different organizations. And the question that I have is why? Why why focus on decarbonization? And it's easy to say, well, because we should, but why make it such a big strategic focus of the organization?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think uh we need to talk about the big picture that you uh alluded to. I mean, uh the need to decarbonize is not going anywhere. We all need to do it for the planet as well, uh, but also for future-proofing um uh our respective businesses. Uh, that we um have the confidence uh to say that we are resilient and we can actually uh support ourselves as well.
SPEAKER_00I mean, two fundamental things, and this is also what I basically grabbed in the in the discussions uh now in the last day, is um in the past we had that mindset that sustainability and being successful in business is a bit going in two different directions. Yeah, but I think it's not, we think it's not. Uh I think we have a common sense that we we need to do climate protective activities and that this basically is a is uh is the key driver for Nestor. So this means we want to do good for the climate, we want to improve um the situation for the generations to follow. Um, and this is why we have been early on investing and making that commitment to renewable fuels, even with within the absence of regulation being in place at that point in time. So I think now um looking to what we have achieved with companies and partners and customers, it's very necessary to understand that currently what we see the the supply is outpacing the demand derived from regulation. And we see that this is also a strong opportunity to showcase that there is more possible right now compared to what is asked for. And this also has another aspect of reducing the reliance on fossil. Um, so I mean, looking to the current situation, what we are in on a geopolitical scale, I think reducing the dependency on fossil is quite an argument. What we should also take into consideration to say how can we ramp up, speed up the usage of renewables to make our dependency less relevant.
SPEAKER_01Yes, definitely uh agree with that. And the uh the long-term goal is is not to rely on fossil fuels, uh, but to actually have the alternatives that can be then uh possibly also be produced uh closer to to where we are and operate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and um you both you you mentioned future-proofing our businesses, you mentioned taking clear, you know, these climate-protective activities, and I think it's it's often easy to have this conversation from the perspective of because it's the right thing to do, but we know that. Park that aside, we still have organizations, we still have businesses that need to run, and we need we need to be able to make a business case for the work that we're doing. But if we're also future-proofing our businesses, future-proofing our supply chains, we're keeping ourselves in business. So there is a very real reason why we should be doing this and should be paying attention and should be scaling up our action.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think that's uh that's a very important thing to remember that uh we are in it for the long run. Uh this is not um not uh a sprint, it's a marathon, it's a very it's a very old saying, but that's how it is. And and we've been um uh actively engaging with Nesta for over five years, and we have grown our SAF usage yearly. We have doubled uh every year since 23, and yet still we are at 1.6 percent uh in 2025. So uh that also shows that yes, uh we all need to um do our share and move this um uh industry forward, uh, but it's not gonna be fast and easy.
SPEAKER_00So it's a lot about education, and this needs to happen in conjunction with each other. Yeah. Um I think that's the key also to create that type of atmosphere of understanding that's uh I would say reducing emission comes with a cost. Um, and and also we need to make the right comparison between the solutions, what we have at hand, right? Because if we're using fossil, nobody talks about the climate damage caused from using fossil. Basically, the damage comes for free. Uh, and if you want to do something good, it comes with a cost. Um, per definition, the the production of renewable fuels is more expensive because simply the feedstock collection is much more effort compared to the fossil production process. So, and that's what we need to pay attention, that's what we need to educate the customers to be also willing to join in and hopefully also to generate regulation which stipulates then the pickup of these types of solutions. I mean, giving you some some numbers, I mean Nesta has the wish by 2030 to save 20 million tons of CO2 emission reduction for our customers in in total. Uh, we already achieved something like 14 million tons last year, which was an increase of 17% compared to the previous year. So this means we are on a steep commitment on growth path to get the ramp-up of these types of solutions up and running and recognized.
SPEAKER_02And do you predict that it's going to stay as steep for the foreseeable future, that growth path?
SPEAKER_00That's a great question. Um, of course, we're doing our utmost to support that, but I mean, this is not the battle which Neste can win alone. This needs the buy-in of multiple functions throughout the value chain. So this means we need to have a very consistent safeguarding of the environmental attributes from us as a producer to our customers to the end customers, there we come into the part of regulation registries and organizations like Smart Freight Center, which stipulate a conjunction of a discussion, uh, that we say, hey, how can we make that work? This this is a is quite a big topic, and of course we we do our utmost to support that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think um uh when you are here on the Smart Freight week and people are very uh invested into this topic and and very knowledgeable about this topic, um, here you tend to forget that outside of uh of this bubble, it's not that's not the case. Absolutely. I mean I talk uh a lot, especially with our corporate travel customers, and um I would say that the uh logistics cargo is a bit um uh maybe uh more advanced than they are on the corporate travel side still, and um just to um educate people on what SAF is uh and especially how they can uh also benefit and participate uh is something that we do sort of day in, day out, and we do it together with Neste. Uh we have um, for example, last year we participated in the biggest um uh business event in Finland uh together, the uh Nordic Business Forum, uh, where we spoke about uh this possibility of uh lowering the carbon footprint of uh business travel. Amazing. Sorry, you go for it.
SPEAKER_00I I think the cargo segment is maybe more easy in that sense because you can allocate to the product being transported the on-cost of SAF. So at the end, it's about how can we forward that on cost or value of defossilization transportation throughout the value chain. So we need to come to an ecosystem which works, right? Yeah, so if some party needs to absorb the on-cost, it's not going to work. But if we if we help to dilute the additional abatement cost to the end product in air cargo, I think the the changes are honestly speaking minor and small, uh, which is maybe a different challenge on the passenger side. On the cargo side, maybe it's better to calculate, even. Um, but this is why I fully agree uh with what Taya said. So on the cargo side, it's more straightforward, and also the companies who are basically um procuring the air cargo can also then still use the reduction in their scope 3 emission reduction going forward, right? So it's it's a consistent flow of an environmental attributes what we target so that everybody knows what is the effort done for.
SPEAKER_02What is the effort done for, knowing that we can track the benefits and we can track them transparently and accurately so that there's no blurry lines, there's no confusion. You mentioned something that I think is very important, Tarya. The the fact that inside of this bubble, a lot of this work is obvious and clear to us. And I do think that in this space we have our own uh curse of knowledge where when we talk about the need for decarbonization, when we talk about the action required and we talk about the opportunities for action, it's obvious to us. But for anybody new to this, anybody new to the subject, I mean, I'm and I don't come from a logistics background myself. When I joined SFC, I was for the first while like adhering headlights, kind of like what are we talking about? What is happening? Because it's complex, it's a lot. And I do think that this is the really important role that education and capacity building plays because it serves as a catalyst, it's the first point for action. So I'd love to understand from your perspectives and the different audiences that you engage with, what is the role that training and education are playing in your decarbonization efforts?
SPEAKER_01Um I think it has become already pretty obvious that it's uh crucial, both uh internal and external communication and education. And we need to um make it sound less complicated than we sometimes do in uh in this uh bubble. Uh, because um I'm I'm working a lot with our um uh sales teams, for example, um, and um in those conversations it doesn't need to go into the um the the discussors don't need to go on the level of uh which registries are you using and what calculation logics, etc. But um for basically uh especially internally, everyone who is dealing with our um customers to understand that what can we offer so that the only solution is not to stop flying, but that they can actually uh contribute uh for the um energy transition uh and benefit from from that. That's the uh that's the bottom line, I would say.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, York, just before you jump in, I love what you said there about we need to make it, we need to talk about it in language that people can understand because I think we get we get tripped up by our own jargon a lot of the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and I think it's everybody within that value chain has a different window of communication and education, so that means the one that you are educating might be different from what we do, um, and might be different from your end customers, what needs to be done, right? So this means everybody within that chain has has a certain responsibility to go out and talk about that because I mean I mentioned earlier we are in that since 2011, right? And we are still on that journey to educate. So um I think this is a task which only can be accomplished amongst the value chain with strong partners and people who are committed, companies who are committed, sharing the same set of the values to say we want to explain what we can use here and now, and and this in a way that people can really buy in, understand, and say, okay, this is this is at the end something good, what we can do right now already.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, and it it's um also what we've done together, and it doesn't only uh kind of stay within the value chain, but we are also talking to the general public uh and um trying to make um it more understandable to them that we are indeed working towards uh also. So lowering the carbon footprint of uh aviation.
SPEAKER_00Creating a momentum of trust, maybe together. So this is uh this is maybe uh if you would ask me for a summary, this is um getting that solution uh considered and evaluated. I mean that's the key, what we need to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, creating that trust is so important. I want to go backwards just a little bit, backwards in time. I mean, so each of you have been in this industry and with your respective organizations, you've been doing this for a while. And I know that for people sitting here today, it can almost feel like why haven't we done more? Why is more not happening? But I do think it's helpful to look back in time for a moment and say, well, actually, this is how far we've come. And so I'd love to ask each of you, what are over the past couple of years, over the times that you've been doing this, what are the most exciting things that you see? If you look back from where you started to where we sit here today in 2026, how have we progressed? Like, let's take a moment to celebrate that we have made some progress.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think indeed that is very important because, like I mentioned, 1.6% uh of our fuel burn is soft. It doesn't seem like a lot, but it's a lot more than it was uh five years ago. And um I want to um highlight from the customer perspective, I mean, when I started in this role almost three years ago, um we didn't have any uh customer engagement. And uh what we are now seeing is that um there are different types of collaborations that we are um actually forming with our customers. Uh it's definitely not uh one size fits all, and we just uh offer it out to the market and everybody picks up, but there are some need to start smaller, the few percentages, some go all in. There are multiple different approaches how this can be um tackled, and I think um uh the great thing is that uh people out there are willing to explore. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00From from a Nestor perspective, I I would like to put this beyond SAF, this response, because there's SAF and HBO for us, so this means renewable diesel. Um, and I see that in the last years I've been in with Neste, we see regulation understand the solution. So, one example is Germany opened up for HVO100 usage, which was basically not allowed before. So, this is a solution which was accepted on the regulation side, which helped us to, I would say, get get HBO 100 into the German market. Um, and next to that, I think I'm quite proud of uh Nest's daring type of mindset to say we invest early on. Uh, and I was just in Rotterdam uh on Monday this week seeing how the construction side of the refinery expansion is going forward. So every time you go there, you see that progress. Um, and this is quite quite stunning to see uh that this is going to be the world's biggest refinery soon when it's up and running, which will give us 6.8 million tons of installed capacity for renewables. This is this is massive, right? I mean, this will be the biggest site on earth producing renewables. Um, and and this is certainly something if you if you stand in front of that facility, you can really grasp that this is on an industrial scale and that there's more more to offer. So um I'm and and this is from from my point of view uh quite a quite a big achievement. Um, what we see there.
SPEAKER_02I think anyone could argue that that is the big the biggest refinery on earth is a pretty good achievement, and such a what else would illustrate progress more than the fact that this refinery needs to exist?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, definitely from a partner perspective, this was uh uh fantastic news that it's got still going on. And I think maybe um I will go back a little bit to my answer as well, that uh sometimes we forget to celebrate these sort of uh back-end uh successes that don't really show on the um balance sheet, maybe, but make everyone's lives easier and enable scaling. So kind of uh the more we use um sustainable adios and fuel, the more we put uh environmental attributes into the market, the more robust uh the back-end systems need to be. Um, and I would say that we've taken um big steps uh on that side as well. And and we've worked together with Nesta, for example, to uh to streamline the um POC documentation so that we can actually automate uh and yeah, make everyone's lives easier. Fantastic. Thank you for sharing.
SPEAKER_02As we come towards a close of this episode, I want to do a quick lightning round with each of you. So a one-sentence sum-up. What are you most excited about? We've just spent some time looking back. Now I want to go forward. What are you most excited about in the next three to five years of freight decarbonization? And you could say the opening of the refinery. I get that. I know that that might be an easy go-to answer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But you guys, you you're both in it. You're working in it from different perspectives. So, what are the things you're most excited about?
SPEAKER_01I would say uh what I'm uh we talk about freight uh in particular. Uh, what I'm um most excited about is to see um sort of the the next round of customers coming on board. Um we've seen a lot of the um forerunners uh also presenting here, and uh and now I want to see the uh the next round uh come up. Love that. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean it sounds boring, but it's uh it's not, it's standardization and regulation what I what I have in mind. What I think is really exciting as the next movement um to make the pace of the acceptance of the solution hopefully more steep. Um, I mean these types of investment they need to pay off, right? So we need demand pick up pace. That's why we believe that regulation, standardization, these types of things are, from my point of view, the most exciting wave now ahead of us. Yeah. Where we hopefully see that um this will help expanding that understanding and trust in the solution what we have at hand can be easily cascaded through the value chain. So this plays quite an important role to make people understand and buy in.
SPEAKER_02It also stimulates the market in a way because it creates requirements, and that can also really help to shift, and it really helps to shift when you have already the proof of concept. You said you've had the early adopters come through, these things are already happening. Now we have the regulation and the policy, follow it up, and then then we get that real large portion of the sector involved and moving things forward. With that, we're gonna wrap this episode. Jurg, Tarya, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for joining me with your different perspectives and for sharing a bit more about how Neste and Finair are working together to really, really scale the adoption of SAF and move the decarbonization needle forward. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much for having us.
SPEAKER_02Thanks. If you'd like to learn more about sustainable aviation, head to academy.smartfreightcenter.org where we have courses and free educational media resources available to help you on your journey to decarbonization. Thank you for listening to this episode of Smart Freight Conversations. If you've enjoyed the episode, if you've learned something interesting, and if you have a colleague, a partner, or a friend who you think could benefit from the listen, please share this episode. Until next time, thank you for listening.