Odysseus Legion Podcast
The Odysseus Legion Podcast is your source for all things competitive BattleTech. From list building and play-by-plays to event structure and organization. Everything you need to play, compete, and organize.
Odysseus Legion Podcast
Episode 14: New Rules or New Edition?
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The Odysseus Legion Podcast is your source for all things competitive BattleTech. From list building and play-by-plays to event structure and organization. Everything you need to play, compete, and organize.
In today's episode we are joined by both Chris and John to talk about the upcoming BattleTech Core Rulebook and the list of changes in the developer notes. We have some positive, some negative, and a lot of mixed thoughts.
A little disclaimer: These opinions are based on the knowledge we had at the time the podcast was recorded. Things may change as we get closer to the release. We will try and update this episode if so.
For rules of engagement, discord links, and an events calendar visit www.odysseuslegion.com
Sorry Nicholas, I've I've I've usurped you as Joe Runner.
SPEAKER_03What? Why why? Why is that a big who is playing?
SPEAKER_04We didn't need a head cop for that apply to like an Fox game.
SPEAKER_05You guys are preventing me from creating a charge or fix of battle tech.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Odysseus Legion Podcast.
SPEAKER_05Hello, hello, and welcome to the 14th episode of the Odysseus Legion Podcast. I am your introductory rules host, Nicholas, and joining me tonight are standard rules, Luke. Hello.
SPEAKER_06Advanced rules, Chris. Ooh, I got advanced rules. I was thinking I'd be lucky enough to be called the quick start rules from beginner box.
SPEAKER_05And experimental rules, John. He's got the IATMs. Get him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know. Wound up as experimental, but I'll take it.
SPEAKER_05Uh Garner is unable to join us tonight as he is currently at Adepticon. He wanted me to pass along this message. Oh. Karnoff Down sucks. We have a very special. We have a very special episode planned today. Catalyst Game Labs has released their changes for the new Battletech Core rule book that is coming out this year, and we have opinions. But before we get into that, what have you guys been up to, Battletech or otherwise?
SPEAKER_06Uh still prepping for Richmond Open. Uh been painting up my Silver Root Ketchuk guys. There I got some uh uh snow texture uh stuff, I guess so call it, and been experimenting with that. It's been pretty cool. Uh I I actually surprisingly liked it more than I expected. Happy with the outcomes.
SPEAKER_01I just got back very recently from a trip to Mississippi for a SCA event, which was a whole lot of fun, but also it involved uh like 20 odd hours of driving each way. So I have been mostly not doing battle tech, but I have had time to paint up most of the Kirita Ranger Lance when in kind of what spare time I do have. So I have uh I have an avatar which is ready for the table, and I have a chimera ready for whenever Catalyst prints new rule sheets for it that are actually useful.
SPEAKER_05I I don't compliment you enough when you post on the Discord, but like some of your recent stuff has been gorgeous.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, uh that avatar was awesome. Yeah, the avatar. It was an avatar. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I bit my tongue.
SPEAKER_01I bit my tongue on that one. Yeah. As far as mechs go, I think it is it was one of my favorites to paint recently, at least, because it's not too big, so you don't really get model fatigue from it. And also it's got a pretty splayed out frame. There's a couple of mechs which have very close in arms that are difficult to like adequately paint, but the avatar was very, very nice and accommodating, and I had a lot of fun putting this together.
SPEAKER_05I I think it shows because like I I didn't look at it too closely, but I remember seeing it as like like the the details on like the caution stripes and things, and just like that's that's a like that's a good one. That's a real good one, Luke Lynn.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, this is what happens when I'm stressing for midterms and procrastinating and not studying.
SPEAKER_02Um my battle tech has been a little sparse lately. I've been keeping up on force packs and buying battle tech always counts as hobby progress, as we know. And I did do some painting in anticipation of our RPG game that is temporarily postponed, that will hopefully get back together here soon. Um, you'll see the theme of what I painted up when I unveiled them because I don't want any spoilers, but uh otherwise, yeah, just keeping up with everything going on lately, including the new rules.
SPEAKER_05Uh as for me, just some practice games with Garner and a lot of progress on concepts for uh Charybdis Moon. I've talked to you a little bit about that, John, and I'm very excited to actually get some stuff to talk about and show more, hopefully pretty soon. I just got to arrange my time and actually get some drafts and concepts and play some playtest stuff here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_05So, Catalyst Game Labs has been working for a while on new rules. Now, they were talking about this as a new version of Total Warfare, but it has become abundantly clear that this is a new version of the Battle Mac manual that is becoming core rules, and that has a lot of interesting implications. We've talked about some of the proposed rules before as they release them in playtest packages, but this is the announcement for the complete new book, which is called the Core Rule Book. It includes rules for mechs, it's largely an expansion of the battle mech manual and includes some sort of fleshed out rules for battlefield support vehicles, infantry, battle armor, and apparently even some aerospace stuff. And I first want to talk to you guys about the changes that they have made. They have, while the actual rule book is not out, they did release Developers Notes document that highlights the changes in the core rules that they have made. We'll talk a bit more overall about our thoughts and feelings as we get in our second segment of sort of like a meta conversation, but for now I want to stick to the actual rules. The changes are divided into subsections for you know playing the game, movement, combat, damage, the battlefield. They have a loose structure for missions, changes to weapons and equipment, and a uh battlefield support section. So we're gonna start with the playing the game section.
SPEAKER_01There is, I think, some interesting stuff going on in here. The big one is they have changed front loaded initiative, is now the default instead of the current backloaded initiative. I think this is generally a good change. It's the one of the most common rules that I see people play with. Um there are some potential downsides to front loaded initiative that have to do with move blocking, but overall, I think being forcing a side with more mechs to move most of their stuff up front is generally the better way to go.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's there's lots of conversations on initiative, and while front loaded isn't perfect, it's it's essentially of the options that are easy to implement, it's the least bad one.
SPEAKER_06Yes. It so quick question Is this the front loaded initiative where if I've got uh let's say like three extra mechs over you, is it going to be I move two and you move one? Or is it gonna be I move all three of my extra mechs until we're balanced? No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01So it's it's the way it's the way we normally play now, which is if you have more, you move two. If you have double, you move three as your right, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so that is what's what is the standardly, you know, we play with what is widely considered and called as front loaded initiative. There was some version of the playtest that had, and some tournaments have implemented this, what we've referred to as super front loaded, right? Which is if you have more, you move everything you have in excess before your opponent. And while it the the document I'm looking here doesn't specify, I'm assuming and hoping it's not super front loaded. But overall, my thoughts on the playing the game section is this is pretty much all stuff that is, if not constantly, it is easy to change in a format like meta rule setting. There's nothing in here that is die hard to the way the game is played.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so uh half ammo bin loads, that's a good change. Okay, yeah. I appreciate that. They did also talk about they are removing dumping ammo from the core rules, which is a little bit goofy, but I guess this is what we get in constellation. So no more dumping machine guns, but you can take a hundred rounds instead of two.
SPEAKER_05It may also make sense combined with a later rule, which is you can only take up to 20 damage from uh ammo explosion. Oh yeah, which is like okay, so you're not like deleting your entire mech from a machine gun yet. Like that makes it a lot less.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that was the reasoning. Yeah. Do do we know what the initiative die optional rule is? No.
SPEAKER_05I'm hoping it's something similar to initiative compensation that we use, but the that's part of the problem with this document is it's it's a bullet pointed list. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff we don't know. So there are things that I will reserve judgment until it's clarified, like initiative die optional rule added. What is the addition of die optional rule? Yeah, and I and here's the thing it says added, not standard, so that might just mean it's a sidebar optional rule in the book, in which case I don't care.
SPEAKER_02It's something new they came up with for the because I I was trying to remember if this was some Tac ops optional thing, but I I couldn't place it, so okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so playing the game, nothing here is overly uh bad.
SPEAKER_02Like I I'm not particularly fond of super heavies and tripod mechs being core, but well, so that's I that was my more overarching response to this is I'm glad they're finally making the Il clan era more prominent, if not the default setting. Because then they turn around and sell source books that are either Il clan only and don't mean anything, or they keep putting out force manuals that stop at the Civil War. It's like pick an era and let's support it.
SPEAKER_01I do just want to inject because I went and I found it in early playtests that you were talking about earlier, Nicholas. Initiative die is initiative compensation.
SPEAKER_05Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's yeah, so it's you get you get a bonus equal to the number of turns you have lost initiative and you use a die to track it that trades between the players.
SPEAKER_05Okay, yeah, yeah, because effectively, you know, each person has an equal chance to win initiative, but if you end up on a losing streak of that, it's awful. It can really break a game. And while like as for someone who has glossed initiative more often than not in every single game he's played this year, I like having that die.
SPEAKER_02I like having compensation, and that does fit the theme of feels bad. That's the oh, we're we're not touching we'll we'll we'll touch on that later. That needs to be the overall core rule book, parentheses, feels bad. Like it's anything that felt bad, they tried to address in this. Who that felt bad to and how bad is subjective.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I've I have strong thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_05Oh yeah, oh yeah. Chris, do you have any thoughts on the playing the game part?
SPEAKER_06Uh no, like uh like we've said that I think the the half bins is is a nice change. Um, the initiative die, I I love playing with that. You know, and uh the front loaded initiative. That was my main concern, making sure it wasn't super front loaded. But if it's just what we all commonly know as front loaded, I think it's a great change. I think that is like we've kind of said, the best of all the options, even though none of them are spectacular, it's the best.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, they throughout this, there are several very, very, very, very, very commonly played with optional rules that they've just they've just made standard, you know. Front load is one of them. Uh, if we're if we're going into the movement section, we don't play it with it with uh with it in Iliad, but where is it here? Uh I thought the moving yeah, backwards level changes is added as a standard rule. The only reason that's not an Iliad is just it's like it's we there's I didn't want to add another one that was kind of meh to when there's already so many.
SPEAKER_06I mean it it I won't say it never comes into play, but it's it's less of a major issue. It's it's a great optional rule, but it's fine that it's optional.
SPEAKER_05That that that's one that's just like I have no like there's no reason not to add it other than just like I don't know, it just feels like there's gonna be too many if there's not a real persuasive reason to add it, but making it standard means hey, it's it's in there, don't have to fight that anymore.
SPEAKER_06Since we're on the movement phase, I'll say for me, um, the fact that an immobile unit doesn't count as an activation or an emission initiative sync, you know, I I really like that. Not that it's abused much in classic, um, but in Alpha Strike, you know, that can become a thing where it's like, you know, oh you heated up my mech to shut down. Okay, that's great. I I lost initiative, no, I didn't, because I'll just uh sync the initiative on them. And but you know, it's uh I like I like not having it it kind of sucks if you've got an immobile unit, but it's kind of nice to not um be able to abuse an immobile unit or yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05To a certain extent, when if you're playing with front loaded initiative, having initiative syncs matters less. So it oh oh including front loaded and eliminating that, it kind of like I don't feel like it changes much. The movement changes, you know, water is less lethal. Uh overall just feels like a standardization. There's nothing in here that's really objectionable or like I think it's a net positive, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think overall, I think the movement section, these are all unambiguously good changes. Um one thing. Okay, so this got this got thrown down into battlefield and urban combat, but I think we should talk about it in movement. Skidding has been removed. I knew it's fine. She started to say that afterwards. Please go for skids. I yeah, please go for skidding. This this we we should talk about it here because I think this this goes into the same thing. And I think this is I think this is fine. Skidding is has, in my opinion, been one of those. It's it's one of those, like, Jesus Christ, I did something stupid, and now I need to like read five pages of rules to figure out how I die horribly.
SPEAKER_02Um driving on racing slicks, apparently, has no traction.
SPEAKER_01Um I think we can we can talk about whether or not it's realistic, but at the end of the day, I think this is a good thing that it was that it's it's been pulled out of out of the core because it's it's yeah, goofy and it just it takes up a lot of bandwidth. And while it does lead to a lot of very, very silly moments when you're uh playing on city maps where you have stuff, there's a um a thing I'm thinking of of a mega mech screenshot I saw where Princess fails a skid with a locust, hits a fuel tank, blows up three of her mechs, and then the print that for those who are not aware, princess is the mega mech AI. Um and then this breaks princess and it stops responding and it stops making inputs. Because it's lost three things during the movement phase. Yeah. So yeah. Skidding going away is just like, cool, this was I it that it's skidding is I think the perfect optional rule. If you want your city game to be weird, then whatever version of tactical operations we get will give you this back.
SPEAKER_02And I think it's because, again, much to Nicholas's chagrin, BSPs are the default vehicles, which don't skid anyway. So I think they're just leveling the playing field with that, and it's it's nice. We we just had this happen in my RPG. I had to stop for 20 minutes to figure out how something skids, and it was great, it was a great story beat, but it took you right out of the game.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, it's great when you resolve it, it's not great for the half an hour before that happens.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's it's one of those things that it comes up so rarely, and or also part of the reason people might avoid pavement is that pavement in general is that they don't want to deal with skidding, and so and they avoid water, and some building rules, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love the changes to water, like water might as well have been lava before these changes. No one ever wanted to walk through it because they were so afraid of failing that piloting role. So that's it, it's gonna make a lot more maps, not just usable but enjoyable to people, and they're not gonna dread the the couple pieces of road or the little pond, they can't go all the way around, things like that.
SPEAKER_06So one river's map will no longer be like you know, impenetrable walls that you have to jump over. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I think part of the problem with water was just that people weren't familiar enough to understand the consequences of their actions. Because even with current rules, I I go into water constantly in specifically Mega Mech, because I know what to do to not cause instant death while Princess doesn't. But I that doesn't mean I I disagree with with these.
SPEAKER_01That just sounds like you're torturing the AI. That doesn't sound like water is actually being tactically useful.
SPEAKER_05Oh, it's so tactically useful. I mean, it's free partial cover. Yeah, and if you have heat sinks in your feet, which you should, you get extra heat sinking.
SPEAKER_01Dog, the rest of us are inner sphere players, we don't get doubles in our feet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I no, you did not, I just said heat sinks. I I play both IntroTech on Mega Mech and Ilklan in Mega Mech. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_06No, but I I think to to all of your points, I mean, like making water and roads more accessible at the start and not to be this thing like, oh god, I'm I'm moving on a road, now I've got to look up four pages of rules, or oh, I'm afraid I'm gonna fall in the water and drown. It removing that fear barrier, it it does make the game more enjoyable. It lets you in, I think that's what it at least all the movement rules, definitely, and many others, it makes the game enjoyable.
SPEAKER_05I'd also phrase it as a fear slash knowledge barrier, right? Because if you you could you could be rightly afraid of something, or if you know the rules of the game where you're not surprised by the consequences, because I feel like part of skidding, part of water is oh, I'll go in the water, and then you trip and fall and realize that if you have armor gone from a location and it hits the water, you will get an automatic breach and your unit's dead, right? If you if you know that, like, hey, my our my unit's got full armor, I'll go into water and it's fine, or you're gonna go like, oh shit, we'll go in the water. No, I have an exposed torso, right? That that different understanding of the rule where you're not caught by surprise means you know, like it is a different experience for the knowledgeable player versus the less knowledgeable player, and I feel like make these changes and a lot of the other changes in the in have a similar feel to a certain extent, and I'm not always opposed to them. It it just it varies a little bit by rule, but we'll we'll get into that. So it seems like movement section nothing thumbs up, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yep, big thumbs up, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Alright, here we'll get to a little bit more contentious here. The combat section.
SPEAKER_01Oh, there's so many things they changed here, and like half half of these are like I don't like like weapon phase changed to ranged attack phase. Okay, cool. Uh club attacks get make a PSR, cool. That makes clubs. Actually, maybe do something. There's some of these where I look at them and I'm like, I really need you, I really need more explanation of what they're up to here.
SPEAKER_05Like the uh Yeah, number six, line of sight always ignores partial hexes.
SPEAKER_06What is a partial hex? What does that mean? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05A fundamental part of the game was putting your opponent on the line and having the defender choose. Like you can take advantage of cover or not. It was a strategic decision. And you're taking that away where it no longer counts.
SPEAKER_01Well, I like what? I have a feeling on the I have a feeling that's not partial. I have a feeling partial is gonna be like if it's just if you have like a uh a line that's managing to pass through like three different uh hexes at once. Yeah, like one of those. It crosses the corner of a hex.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Okay, if if if there's a specification of like you can ignore that little case where you have to get out the laser and try to judge, it's like, does this hit the little itty-bitty corner of these woods or not?
SPEAKER_01Like, I need them to tell me what's going on there. Cause yeah, if it's just like, oh yeah, just it it touches like the vertice or something of like an otherwise unrelated hex, like, okay, that makes sense. If it's but also like that, there's just not enough detail here. We can't we can't really glean a whole lot from that.
SPEAKER_05So surface level, if it's if it's a complete change to the on the line hex declaration rule, I have problems with it.
SPEAKER_01If it's the you can ignore if the if it hits like like uh both you and your opponent are scratching your head about whether or not this hexing is part of the equation, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_05It's it's not exactly like if you have to get out the laser and stabilize the table and the laser to get out like protractor and ruler to figure out if that woods is along the line of sight. You ignore the woods, don't worry about it. I'm okay with that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say this leads into number seven. Water no longer blocks.
SPEAKER_05Water no longer blocks line of sight, but attacks are forbidden to be declared across the water.
SPEAKER_02Meaning I can see that submarine, but I can't shoot it. Is that what that means?
SPEAKER_01I think it I think practically what this is going to function as is you can put a unit underwater which can spot for things on the surface, and vice versa.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I'm also curious about the full explanation of this because they're in a later section, not you know, we keep just jumping to later sections. They they mentioned how there is a PSR for sensor checks, and I'm curious if they're going to be talking more about mech sensors, which I feel like they would mention a bit more in here, but I guess it's not a rule.
SPEAKER_02That's gonna be more along missions and things like that. Yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_06That that seems reasonable. So on partial cover, I think number 15, where it's a height advantage no longer negate world.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I forgot.
SPEAKER_06I was that one feels like they're changing the whole concept of level changes. Like, I think we've had this discussion where it's more like right now, it's more it's supposed to represent a slope and not a ridge. And now it feels very ridgy, you know.
SPEAKER_01So I kind of I will I will from like from like a from like a narrative standpoint, I can see where you're coming from. But as someone who has had to deal too many times with the immense power of the high ridgeline that someone's just set up on, this is I there is so much strength in being able to take the high ground, and I think at least giving some sort of band-aid to that is probably fine. Uh, I will have to see this. I I tested out a couple of like games at home with this um at one point, and it felt reasonable. This is also one of those things where you have to like, as someone who has taught a lot of new players the game, you kind of like oftentimes will find yourself in like a weird situation where the new player is like, oh, you have partial cover, or oh, I have partial cover, and you have to explain no no, partial cover doesn't exist here for one of us because the other mech is so much higher, and it it slows the game down. And I think this is I think I'll wait to pass judgment to play more with it, but uh from onset, I think this is a fine change.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's this one. I I definitely have some significant concerns with. Just like like like Chris, I like to I I know that Battletech, the hexes are larger than they appear, and it's part of why I don't always like 3D terrain because it it just makes everything into cliff faces and they're not supposed to be cliff faces. Essentially, you know, mechs are to scale closer to the size of like the element uh elemental miniatures than they are to them themselves. And if you look and if you think of the game as representing that scale, you know, partial cover does make sense. Every time I've taught a new new player when I'm just like, hey, we're sitting right now and there's a table between us, you can't see my legs. But if I move back from the table and you stand up, you can see my legs. So it it's it's not hard to teach and illustrate players, and it's not hard to understand the rule of I'm higher, you don't get partial cover. I don't think it's a complex rule that that is hard to grasp when explained properly. And as an organizer, as a competitive player, I do have concerns about suddenly making that plus one ignore my legs such a powerful, like a constant thing where it's really going to make faster, like smaller mechs stronger.
SPEAKER_01It will emphasize um the uh uh mobility as a way to defeat that.
SPEAKER_05But that's all one of the one of the one of the worst things when you have uh faster mechs is if you get hit with a you know a light mech, if you get hit with a goss rifle on the leg, that pretty much always breaches armor. And you risk losing legs a lot. Like legs are incredibly vulnerable on lighter mechs. My my howler constantly will lose a leg. But if I can put it behind partial cover, that's that's a significant chance that that the damage disappears, and one of the worst places you get hit on a mobile unit is trying to accomplish objectives now is is shielded. I think in balance terms, this is probably going to be very problematic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because I guess that I guess that is the other side of it, is it will depend on I think this is gonna be problematic for people who really like playing the your 10,000 points versus my 10,000 points, last one standing is the winner type games. I think for a lot of games which force players to move on objectives, this is gonna be a lot less objectionable. I would almost think the inverse. The thing with objective games is the whole point of it is you are not making decisions for optimal survival. You are making decisions based on you need to move towards points. Whereas so you can win the game that way. Whereas in just like a like a deathmatch game, your entire kind of decision process is basically boiling down to I need to be in the most threatening and protected position possible all of the time.
SPEAKER_05Right. But when you're playing for objectives, you have specific units that you bring to handle objectives where a lot of times you don't care if they get hit anywhere except the legs. You can choose oftentimes you can choose terrain that will now take for greater advantage of uh partial cover, and partial cover will be fantastic right up until you have to make a move where your path is definitive.
SPEAKER_01Until you actually have to like make a capture, but also like let's be real here. On most of the time, you can find a way to, if you are bringing uh kind of low weapon, high speed light mechs as objective grabbers, most of the time, those are not good. You are going to be moving those to keep them out of your opponent's ability to hit them in the first place until they need to hit an objective. Like your howler that can jump seven, how often are you currently giving your opponent a shot better than an 11 on that before it is touching the thing it needs to score?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, but that just means here's the thing, right? I will jump from woods to woods to make them shots on 11s, but now I can just jump from woods to partial cover wherever the heck I want to find it, right? Like my options for moving that howler have just expanded a hundredfold now.
SPEAKER_01I think that's over. I think that's over too.
SPEAKER_05Okay, a hundredfold, right? But but like some it is a can be a dramatic amount depending on the map.
SPEAKER_01It it'll make it'll make fastmex, it'll give fast mechs more options, but also I think as we've seen, the um kind of criteria for a fat uh for an effective light mech are so tight at the moment that I don't think that's necessarily an issue.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, this well ultimately we're gonna have to play, we're just gonna have to play this one out, you know. Like this is definitely a thing that statistically, and in particular the way we play in a competitive environment. I think ultimately, like reading sort of the preamble, the way, and we could talk about this more later, but I do feel like a lot of the decisions in here are based off of people who play in a more ongoing campaign RPG narrative context rather than people who play with a higher concern for balance.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's surprising this didn't make the larger playtest. That seems like something they would have liked to have seen experienced on the table.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_02Some of these kind of popped up like that, that were like, oh, they they went that direction with that. That was not in the playtest. So it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so as far as other ones, because we have a bunch of other sections, uh I want to give a few words on a couple of these, and I figure each of us can do that. Uh Clearing Woods, I am sad about this getting removed, but it's also a relatively small part of the game, and I know a lot of people, when I bring it up, have no idea it's even part of the base rules.
SPEAKER_05That's what most people forget, and in my my little notes here, I put no more clearing woods, parentheses Luke sad question mark. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Garner and I are Garner and I are gonna be disappointed about that one. I there's terminology changes, they're kind of whatever. The club changes are good. Yeah. Uh clubs are cool but very bad right now, and this makes the club a little bit less awful. Um the ability for your uh your archer or whatever to forgo using its medium lasers to just like yank a piece of rebar out and hit the wasp that jumped at it are is pretty nice. That's that's totally where my head was at.
SPEAKER_06I'm looking at this, I'm like, I'm gonna start like digging around for rebar and smacking people with it. It's it makes it cool again, I guess.
SPEAKER_05People have asked me with my howler, like, oh, you pick up a club and hit people with it. No, I punch them in the face because I want two potential head hits, but I might consider a club now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think the big one, the other big one in here is the uh the general melee attack rules. Kicks going to a minus one target number modifier, punches also going to a minus one, and uh leg weapon fire only disables a kick by the leg that's kicking. That one is, I think, uh okay. This is wasp stocks and crusader stocks are up. I thumbs up, but it's not particularly positive or negative, it just kind of is. Yeah. The other two are uh I I'm gonna use the word interesting with a lot of connotations there, and I know other people have more in-depth thoughts about that.
SPEAKER_06I'll I'll let other I've got a potential rant on this, so I'll let you guys uh I I so from my perspective, I I'm in favor of going to minus one for both kicks and punches, or I I would have been fine with eliminating the the kick altogether and leaving both kicks and punches at zero. It's just uh to me, it's just it's can my pilot do the thing that it's you know not trained to do, but capable of doing. I would have left it at that. But if they're at least now they're both the same, I feel that's better because I felt the kicks were you just that's all you're ever going to do because it was just I get a minus two if I kick you, and I'm probably gonna take out your leg and cause a PSR, or or I could try to punch you, and yeah, there's a chance I could punch you in the head, and that would be awesome. Uh, but it's it's not enough. It was never enough. It was like I could do double damage and a kick and likely wreck your leg. That was always more powerful as an action. Now it feels I'll try and punch you if that's if I have fists and I think I can get your head, I'll I'll do that over the kick. I'll I'm more willing to chance the punch now.
SPEAKER_02I was kind of surprised they didn't remove the PSR for missing a kick.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Since they removed a lot of PSRs. Or at least made it a PSR with a negative or something like that. I'm I was kind of surprised.
SPEAKER_01I think it's it's still such a powerful option that forcing you to have to make that calculus is still worth it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, apparently it's not a feels bad moment to have to make a PSR if you miss with a kick.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's it's uh it's uh I I tried to be cheeky and disable your mech, and now I'm paying for my sins.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I did a nice pirouette when I missed and fell. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05I I think originally, right, you get a minus two to kicking, but if you miss, you get a PSR. With how difficult PSRs could be, was uh a reasonable trade. It allowed you to potentially deal with faster units, you had a sort of like an accuracy choice. And if you're playing it in the four-five base and you never leave it, you're pretty much only ever going to kick because you know, punches, you know, that minus two, the differential between punching and kicking was huge. But the moment you left a four-five, the moment you moved away from five piloting to four, three, two, punches become suddenly become so much better depending on the the mech and the differential, because all of a sudden, you know, you're not depending on the minus two in order to hit, and uh you know, like, yeah, you know, the the penalty when you have a higher piloting for kicking and missing, like you're okay, you're more likely to succeed, so it's kind of like a whatever, but the advantage of uh obviously depending on the level your target is at, because like a kick to the on the rear punch table is still amazing, but so is a punch on tables depending on on the mech, and you get two of them, yeah. And it's even better two chances to hit, two chances to hit, yeah, and possibly hitting the head or just the upper body on a lot of occasions. Once you get rid of the difference between a zero and minus two, it's huge. On with a minus one to punch, the moment I have a four piloting, I might I unless I'm you know a level above the person, you know, particularly because getting up is easier, PSRs are easier. So the whole point of okay, you kick them and now they have to make a PSR is all is a lot less advantageous. So most of the time, it's like I'm gonna want to punch. I I see very little reason to kick when they're both at minus minus one, and particularly the moment a mech takes one pilot hit, I I know this because I use my punch monkey and I punch all the time, right? Let's okay, you get one lucky pilot hit, whatever, it's not that not that big of a deal. But the moment you take a second or a third hit, it suddenly becomes a lot more likely that the mech falls unconscious and bad things start to happen, yeah. Right. And so the moment somebody gets a head a head hit, all of a sudden, oh my punches are minus one. Like, if I don't have that many arm guns, like I'm gonna go, I'm chart, I'm going for punching now because I'm at minus one. It's you're and you're not losing that much in terms of sacrificing your kick and PSRs now to punch, right? Yeah, punching is better than kicking now, but they're trying to make punching more useful, so kicking isn't automatically good the best option. Well, again, if you leave the four or five space, punching is great. And now, if you're in the four or five space, you there's really unless you're kicking there's oh they're both at minus one, you get two chances at minus one. If it's a high TMM, you're better off punching. You know, if you're going if they're a low TMM, you're probably better off better off punching, it's a bigger thing. A head hit is more important than knocking them down because getting up is easier.
SPEAKER_02Well, punching is now better than kicking, in my and like we said, all these changes made okay pilots good and good pilots great. So yeah, we'll have to see how that plays out. Yeah, when people actually start bumping their piloting skill.
SPEAKER_06I mean, I know it's a later item, but then you start adding in things like a retractable blade and punching or claws, you know. I mean, there's a lot of like I agree with you. I think punching is gonna be the new kicking in terms of melee. Uh I also think clubs are I I'm excited for clubs. I'm I'm still going back to that. I think that clubs will also be uh more than the club is gonna be fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um oh and one that I completely skipped over. Uh actually someone else can go this. Um charges and DFAs are getting some significant changes.
SPEAKER_05Charges are broken. Yeah. As someone who basically like if it wasn't for outside events in my life, I would have gone on 5-0 with my Black Lantern J. And Chris, you brought that thing to a tournament. Yeah, but that there's a reason we no longer allow piloting too, and that is things like that. Yeah. Where the differential bonus on charging makes it so that if someone brings a 4-5 and you've got skilled pilot, you could automatically hit, and you can automatically hit for stupid amounts of damage. Yep. And I don't know exactly. I mean, I'm assuming when they say it's based on a TMM rather than hexes. So, like for like for example, with the Black Laner J, if it was a 10 hex charge, TMM 4, 5.5 times 4, you know, it's like much more reasonable than you know, time 17.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 22 damage. I think there is a decent chance the way they work it is they will try, they will change the modifier on the charge.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, chart the charge damage formula rewritten to be to be based on TMM rather than hexes moved, and to include the hex the target is in, reducing damage from high speed, 10 plus hex charges. Like that's fine. I'm okay with this. Um change. It it it makes, you know, again, the Black Lanter J, you know, if it hit 18 hexes, so you know, on a straight line charge and hitting the person that is, you know, TMM five, five point five tons. You're looking uh I'm not gonna do the do the math, but I'm just gonna say close to 30 damage, which is about the same as if you hit with all of its guns.
SPEAKER_01It's like 37. And I could also I could also see them bumping it, so instead of being a tenth of tonnage, it's like a seventh of tonnage or something. Like they might they might mess with the modifier to bring the damage up because I think what they will try and do, because up to 10 hexes, uh TMM scales fairly linearly with um hexes moved. They will try and fit the previous damage to um uh the uh they will try and fit the previous damage calculations to the TMM, and then after that, it's basically because TMM starts to decrease linearly from that point, not linearly, it kind of decreases logarithmically, it will basically just be nerfing the things above 10 hexes.
SPEAKER_05And I am fine with that. It was kind of stupid and kind of broken where you could find things that like again, like the Black Lanter J or certain fire moths or certain things where they're just like the fireball. I'm a missile.
SPEAKER_01The fireball, the uh the what's gonna call it, the uh the celerity bull notorious for their ability to just deliver a 40 hex charge and delete a mech from existence. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And in addition, it seems like they're making charges and DFAs less punishing to do. Yep. And I Think I'm okay with that. I don't want to feel it and see it and see what's written and explained more exactly. But DFAs are always kind of like right now wild chaos cards that rarely pay off and having them be a little less punishing because they they're pretty they pretty much never work. To see them work a little bit more, I'm okay with it.
SPEAKER_01I it doesn't seem so much like they're changing the they're making them work any better, so much as they're rationalizing some kind of clunky stuff. Like charge attack, like the main ones are charge attacks. You can if you're interrupted from your charge attack, which I'm taking to mean your attacker, the thing you're trying to attack becomes no longer eligible to be charged, you can try and throw a punch somewhere else. Or uh what's the other one? Failed charge is no longer displaced. That's probably for the best. But it's it's stuff like that, or the DFA stuff is mostly just kind of dealing with some kind of clunky wording of the DFAs. I don't necessarily think it'll make them easier to do, but it will make them a little bit less weird.
SPEAKER_05My phrasing wasn't necessarily make them easier, but I don't remember the exact thing. It's more less punishing. Because, for example, on other actions, the PSR modifier for making a successful DFA attack was reduced from plus four to plus two. When you fail a DFA, it's a it counts as a fall from two levels. So you essentially take three falls worth of damage, and by by reducing it from plus four to plus two, you're less likely to experience that, and so it's less punishing to do like to fail the DFA. You're alright. It's it's much the the risk reward calculation is significantly different. And so, sure, the the your the the effects of a successful DFA haven't really changed, but the fact that a DFA is less likely to be catastrophic for the person trying it means it's it's definitely definitely better overall. Alright.
SPEAKER_01We have damage uh pro all of the ammunition rules are back from the survivability playtest. These are all very good.
SPEAKER_06100%.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yep. I wish they had included the one damage to mech warrior instead of two as part of the playtest. It's included.
SPEAKER_05It's there, it's in it's in there. Ammunition, eternal explosions, deal only one mech warrior on it instead of two.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, it wasn't in the original playtest rules. They slipped this in later. And I I I like it, but I I think there would have been more opinions on not only reducing damage, but also making it less lethal. I I think there might have been some discussions, but overall I I like it.
SPEAKER_01Alright, so here's I guess is there anything in here? Because I think this is another section where most of the things in here are pretty unambiguously cool. Um does anyone 50%.
SPEAKER_05All right, I'd say like 50% of stuff. I think the ammunition stuff, hull breaches, stand like, yeah, like it's fine. I do think that as a whole, I I can't exactly argue individually with changes to say leg actuator crit changes, or or it's just as as a whole, when they add, like, okay, the penalties for these hits is worse, and you can only get one PSR from each leg total, no matter what the damage is, combined with everything else. Mechs are gonna stay standing a lot longer, it's going to drastically change the way the game functions in terms of obviously is reducing a lot of feels bad moments, it's reduced the significance that increased piloting makes on the game. And I feel a key balancing aspect to take advantage of was piloting differentials, or hey, that guy brought like uh increased gunnery but improved the piloting, so you can take advantage of that and force them to fall, or if you go for the legs with, say, a kick at a minus two, you know, you can force the PSR, get them to fall, maybe they'll hit things, or you know, masks were a much more significant risk because you could create yourself in the legs for a lot of these things. And the fact that as a whole, they have changed so many of these and masks and all of this means that the game's going to play, I think, a lot faster. People are gonna make risk, what would have been riskier moves a lot more often, mechs are not gonna fall as often, and it's going to be very much a gunnery, shoot 'em, kill 'em more action rather than tactical game. And it's it's an interesting thing that I judging from this and what I what I've read and what we can talk about a bit later, feels like they they might not have really thought or played out as much as I would have liked them to. Like it's individually, I can't necessarily argue against any one of them, but as a whole, it feels like a big change.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I am going to say, yes, it is a big change. However, I'm going to bring back what I said when the initial damage play test, because a lot of this was in the uh damage play test already. Um I think one of the interesting changes here is they have completely removed the importance of the hip, uh, where uh hip hip now just counts as another leg actuator, which I think is probably for the best because it was really clunky previously. I think overall, these are going to be big significant changes. However, most of the time when you saw these changes prior, the problems that arose from the the problem that arose from them was you end up with a mech that gets its leg at its leg shredded, and then you're like, cool, this is gonna stay on the ground for the rest of the game. It was, I think the difference here is yes, I do think this is going to create this is going to make people push to play with units less conservatively, and I think that's a good thing because the pain of a PSR with a shredded leg or a gyro hit previously was oftentimes it wasn't you weren't allowed to take the sheet off of the table yet, but you already kind of internalized that your Mac was down. And I think making that less of an issue is for the better.
SPEAKER_02And the fact that you only get a single PSR over the life of the leg, whatever happened during that turn is a big one.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I mean that alone I think would have done a a lot of the lifting on these issues, you know, because like it was kind of silly where if you got, you know, two or three, you know, you got kicked and you lost a a foot and a lower leg actuator, lost both of them. That's three PSRs all of a sudden.
SPEAKER_01That yeah, now it's only two.
SPEAKER_05Now it's only two, which you know I feel like that alone would have done a lot of the heavy lifting for the feels bad moments and kept some of the other more interesting gameplay thing. It's it's again, I can't argue against any one of these individually, but as a whole, I feel like it's going too far.
SPEAKER_02I I think reducing your MP by only one for losing a hip doesn't feel punishing enough. I I think half half was okay, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think that's fine.
SPEAKER_05I it's it it going back, like I think some of the previous rules for critical hits were too punishing. I think and the real problem was cumulative damage and the way that really made a mech fall apart. But this feels like the now the punishments for each individual one isn't enough, and they reduced the some of the penalties for cumulative stuff, where it's like I it's again, like I feel like they could have done done less and gotten a more you know.
SPEAKER_02I guess the hip one really just sticks with me because it it flies in the face of 40 years of uh fiction where you you hit something in the hip and it's limping along now. Now your locust instead of 812 is 711. You're like, oh, okay. That's yeah, that that's 711 lay also.
SPEAKER_01But they did also remove hip crushing crutching, so now the theoretical PSR modifier, I believe, is actually higher if you have a totally wrecked leg.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, I don't remember the rules.
SPEAKER_06It does accumulate instead of just taking the giant or the hip, the hip damage.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, when the leg is completely destroyed. But yeah.
SPEAKER_06I I think you know, they uh I think if you look at it from what was their intent and their intent, I feel generally was to make it more action-y, uh, more and and I don't mean this in a diminutive way, but more like an arcade game or you know, like the like you know, the computer games where you it's really hard to to fall or to to really kind of um you're always in the fight because of what you said.
SPEAKER_02Well yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_06You lose the hip, if you lose a gyro, you might as well just count the mech out. That that's if they didn't like that.
SPEAKER_02How mech warrior 5 is now you completely destroy the leg, it doesn't fall over. It it limps around pretty slowly, but it doesn't fall.
SPEAKER_05So I do ultimately, in terms of a balanced sense, my instinct is that this benefits lighter mechs more than it does heavy mechs, right? Because like uh, you know, a turret, a turret tech mech, you you take crits, you manage to stand up, you stay still, you're still in terms of combat effectiveness, and still in terms of achieving your role, you're closer to achieving your role than you are as a lighter mech, right? Like that locust that you know loses speed, can't run, you know, gyro hit. Like those are the mechs that if you lose a if you lose a gyro on a locust or a hip on a locust, okay. Yeah, now what role does it serve?
SPEAKER_02It doesn't it can't yeah, for accomplishing mission is it useful.
SPEAKER_01I I think I think that's I we'll we'll see. I do think that's not necessarily true because oftentimes I find um slow mechs in bad situations need to very carefully micromanage the few pips of movement they get. So if you are in a bad position with a heavy that doesn't have that much movement, you can get really, really boned really quick, and those are way more expensive than that locust is.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, it's it's a weird uh dichotomy here. Like um do it there's there's gonna be some very different different results in clan versus is tech elements in some of this, but also I think you're definitely right that like you know a cavalry line heavy that does need to be able to move to accomplish a goal is closer to the locust in that it has to move to accomplish its goal, but you know, an annihilator on a hill probably doesn't care all that much. Like this makes the I you know.
SPEAKER_01Alright, do we have anything else to say about damage?
SPEAKER_06I think I'm good.
SPEAKER_05Does anyone actually care about the little heat section?
SPEAKER_01No. No, they've removed they've removed standing, adding heat. That's fine. The other things here are basically just consequences of too much heat. Those are fine. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Other actions. There's sensor checks. They exist, PSRs are easier. Uh leg damage only one PSR. We mentioned that. Some successful clarifications on Domon effects and falls. A lot of this is kind of. I mean, facing after fall table is deleted.
SPEAKER_06I'm good with that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, one less roll. That's exactly unlike one less roll, it's fine. Well no, it's no, here's the same number of rolls because you still have to roll a 1v6.
SPEAKER_06It's the front, yeah.
SPEAKER_05On the rear is a one instead of a four. So you're not eliminating any role, you're just eliminating randomness. And honestly, in terms of seeing here's you know what I'm thinking about it now, in terms of no eye of randomness in a competitive setting, if you're trying to create a balanced game, is almost never good, right? Having a random die determine your facing and having the consequences be negative or positive as a result, where your opponent can potentially take advantage of that, I don't think is good. And so while it doesn't eliminate a die, and I'm not necessarily fond of some of the stuff they're implementing in terms of a roll one, like all these mechanics to now roll one d6. This one I'm okay with. This one I like. But yeah, this is fine.
SPEAKER_01Uh seatbelt checks got rationalized a little bit. Like, seatbelt checks no longer add damage to mech terrain modifiers, etc., to the PSR. I I'm going to need to see how they're wording this because that reads to me as the I'm not sure. I I assume that just means like leg and gyro actuators aren't going to impact it effectively. And also the seatbelt check isn't easier in water, but I'm not sure what else that's doing. So I'm gonna need to know more.
SPEAKER_02Are they including the plus one for 20 points of damage? Is that what you're if that is gone now?
SPEAKER_06Well, that's what it would imply. That's what number 10 would imply, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And that just means your mech is less likely likely to take head hits. Yeah. So uh they're getting rid of another feels bad moment where you take a head hit and fall unconscious. And it makes it means it's less punishing to have people fall over. Because it used to be you kick, they fall, they get a seatbelt check, and they might take a head hit, which also means kicking is less good because now you can punch to get the head hit.
SPEAKER_06But also then with number 12, there where consciousness checks only use the highest uh number to avoid. So if you do two head hits or two punches and get two head hits, I only make one consciousness check.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but still on a higher number. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, it's uh I think that change was to make the ammo explosions better too, now that they don't do two points.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that but now a lot. You know, two punches and then I I fall. Uh I don't know how to make the one but two punches and then I fall and I fail my seatbelt, so I take another one. You know, it's it normally that could be a lot of rolls and a lot of chances for you to fail. Now it's one roll, one chance to fail.
SPEAKER_05It it eliminates the cascade effect of you take a head hit, you're more likely to you know fall, or like these other effects, but also I don't know, if it feels like it's going too far because like John, you were saying, Oh, they they did it because of the two you know hits to the pie for ammo, but they got rid of the two, so now it's just one. Right.
SPEAKER_02They could have done one or the other, yeah. They yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05There they're it feels like another thing of oh, we we have these separate ideas, we have a problem of oh, nobody likes it when their mech wire goes unconscious. How do we deal with this? And they all pitch in ideas, and it's just a blanket yes, and it feels like it's going too far in the other direction.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna give an alternate explanation for this because I think this is a fine change. This is taking the framework of the existing PSR rules and applying it to consciousness checks.
SPEAKER_02It yeah, I I can see that. Yeah, it's always just take the higher, no matter what.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is, it is. We are we are going because one of the issues with consciousness checks is there was some squirrely timing with them uh that kind of require, and this is just no, if anything triggers a consciousness check at the end of the phase, your mech warrior just you you roll 2d6 against the highest pilot hit number that you've reached. That's how we're doing it, and I think that's fine. I think that is as a change, I think that is a fine way to do it.
SPEAKER_05I I stress two two things here. One I it's one of those any I can't argue it with it as an individual change, but as it's adding up with everything else, the it's the cumulative problem, but also you you compared it to PSRs, which it's very different from PSRs, because all of your PSRs on the highest number and you make multiple. This one is you don't make multiple.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So I think you realized that as you're saying it, didn't you?
SPEAKER_01I did, but also I still think it's I still think this is a better way to do it of just like okay, you've crossed the threshold for a pile for a piloting check, you need to make one at the end of the phase.
SPEAKER_05Like I think it's better under the old rules. Under the new rules, I think altogether it's it's just hey, consciousness checks are easier. Also, you're a lot less likely to take head hits in many different ways. So uh it suddenly you're you're kind of pushing it off further away from the relevance it has to gameplay is not is not just lessened but severely lessened all of a sudden.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, it's ammo explosions are much more survivable, but you'll still have to make a consciousness roll. But by the way, you only take one point now, and you're like, oh, well, have all these been tested together as one, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I also again I think that the ammo explosion rules, I think, are another one where I look at those and I go, Yeah, this is probably they are I think a lot of people are misunderstanding exactly how powerful 20 or 10 points of internals are.
SPEAKER_02Without case, absolutely oh yeah, 20 points, you're gone.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like like Luke, you pointed out that it's like uh 20 damage, only like the heaviest assault mechs can possibly survive that on their internal structure. And like, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, like it's one of those like it it feels very different, but then you actually look at record sheets and it's like, oh yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well it's it's basically it's basically heavies and assaults with a standard engine can survive an uncased ammo explosion, but when it happens, they are losing a side torso, they're taking a consciousness roll, and they're also getting crits to their center torso. Like, it's bad. It's really bad.
SPEAKER_02It's still not a good it's just not an instant delete of the mech.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, and the the 10 points on a case dammo explosion is also really bad in a lot of cases. It's it's gonna make tax maybe a little bit less feel bad, but most of the time, I think for Intersphere XL mechs, it is going to still kill the mech.
SPEAKER_05And this goes back to the concept of randomness in a competitive setting where you don't want victory or loss to be determined completely on random, and like randomly hitting that ammo and the mech is just completely gone, you know, is not hey, here's a fresh mech, and I rolled a rolled a 12, then a two, then a 12, or whatever that you know, whatever it is, and you get the ammo.
SPEAKER_02I think that's why they changed the mech warrior hits too as well, since every clan mech has case, it would you could live through three ammo explosions with case, whereas this would have scrambled the pilot and you're dead. So now that they made case so much better or survivable, they they had to make sure the pilot could live through it too.
SPEAKER_01And which granted, uh you were already seeing that because improved heavy lasers and the like small boar gauss rifles did ammo explosions small enough and they tended to get packed together that you could end up firecracker chaining mechs. Which was always really funny when it happened.
SPEAKER_05I used there, I there's a brief point point in time where I really liked the anti-personnel Goss rifle and some of those mechs. Yeah, man, it's got eight of them, you know, 369, 3 damage, efficient BV costs, decent, you know, decent ammo efficiency. You know, there was uh a Shadow Cat that for its BV with a bunch of them. It's like, look at this thing, it's heat efficient, got them, it's great. And then somebody somebody uh crit one out and reminded me, it's like, yeah, it explodes three damage, but two head hits. Oh crap. Yep, nope. I'm not bringing I'm not bringing an AP Goss machine anymore because it's it's a melt the pilot machine. I might consider them again now.
SPEAKER_01The uh the inner sphere mag shot gauss rifle might actually see some play. We'll see. Uh I think the only thing we haven't covered here is dumping ammunition. I think the dumping ammunition rules were already very, very limiting. And I think with the changes to how ammunition is handled, they are going to be a lot less relevant. I think this is whatever.
SPEAKER_02Agreed.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, if if you only take 20 damage from your machine gun ammo and you can bring half of it anyway, that was the main culprit. Yes. And so just like, hey, you're no longer taking 400 damage, you're taking 20. That's that's a lot less abysmal. So yeah, I'm alright. The battlefield and urban combat.
SPEAKER_01Uh something that's going to see how these implementations work. I can't I can't give you any I can't give you any commentary on any of this.
SPEAKER_05This is definitely more interaction, more thing. The main thing I'll say is smoke has been added to core rules. Oh boy. And I need to see how it says fire and smoke added to core in a form modified from previous implementations. Okay, show me what this is, because that causes problems, particularly, and I'm going to skip ahead here, they have added smoke munitions.
SPEAKER_01It's only artillery smoke and presumably setting fires.
SPEAKER_05Inferno 4, smoke 4, thunder 4. Yes.
SPEAKER_01It is not a we are not adding SRM and LRM smoke munitions, as far as this show.
SPEAKER_05If is listen, if first of all, I don't think they should have smoke rules as standard. I mean, I I will see how they implemented because current smoke rules, uh, it's widely joked that they are a megamech only rule because no one wants to use them and measure them in the wind in regular games. And so if it's just the artillery and it's more of a people think and choose rather than having to you play it with it in a standard game, I'm okay. Yeah, like whatever.
SPEAKER_02BMM smoke rules were pretty decent, the simplified ones.
SPEAKER_01The issue with the BMM smoke was it didn't go away.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I uh yeah, unless this goes away, but then how do you track it? Unless every turn you have to roll something. We'll have to see.
SPEAKER_01I yeah, I think I think that's a case of like there's already so many dice on the battlefield. You can either it has a lifetime of one turn, or you just put a dice counter next to it and it just goes away after like two or three times.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. It it's gonna put smoke for this round or something in. But we'll see. I do like that weather is weather is in there now. That's that's nice. Although most of it is just gives you a plus one to hit or something like that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So the weather rules in Battletech are some of the worst rules and worst optional rules of all of the optional rules in the game. They just make the game worse in an attempt to be more interesting, but it's like, hey, everything is a penalty, it's just flat added, there's there's little interaction or usability in the standard weather rules.
SPEAKER_01You don't like the 2% roll for the tornado killing everyone?
SPEAKER_05Oh, in Mega Mech, that's the worst. No, any kind of situation where suddenly you're dealing with weather it in Mega Mech or not, it is awful. I'm curious what they what how what they're adding or doing here. I'm very excited because there's some alternate campaign weather rules I'm working on for Charybdis Moon that I I want to uh reveal at some point, but not today.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I think, and also I think just putting these rules more visibly in front of players, this is kind of whatever. I think some of this stuff, I think for people who like battle tech as an RPG, this will be cool. I think for people who like battle tech more as a war game, which uh I know a couple of us are really into, these will be things which can either be excised because they're not on the maps you're playing with, or they're something that you can just say, alright, we're playing with standard weather conditions, I don't want to roll low visibility.
SPEAKER_05And this is officially where skidding has been removed. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05The next section is missions. I think this is my thought on the missions rules are kind of similar to the scenarios in the back of Total Warfare. It's a starting point for people who don't know what else to do, but once you figure out what else to do, you move on from these, because I don't think they're the best written or made.
SPEAKER_01Having played a couple of them, they're way better than the ones in Total Warfare right now, and I think that's just that like that's what I could ask for. Like, it's a it's a reasonably it's is it the best scenario pack in the world? No, there's some goofy things in there, but also at the same time, I think for just having a bunch of relatively easy to understand missions that you can quickly run through, I think it like they could have done so much worse. I'm uh pleased with what it is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, from the play chest. A little a little something in core, and then I'm sure they're gonna have a book later of missions.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. There you go. Yeah, because they're my from my understanding there with like the chaos campaign, with the like campaign systems they've been doing, they've been putting they've been putting in more work of figuring out how to write missions.
SPEAKER_06So I I I'll say this. I mean, putting it into the core book, putting in some good basic missions is a is a very good thing so that a new player can pick up the core manual, be able to flip to a mission, set up some mechs, and start to play. I think that's a great thing, just for the for the hobby. Is it for the experienced player? Is it for like after you've played it three times, it's probably not worth it.
SPEAKER_05You know, it's but it's a good thing for the new player, and I think it's like yeah, me as the middle school boy who's got this book and played a few times with his you know second removed uncle or whatever, and now I'm just excited, you know, teach people during recess in fourth grade or whatever, having the missions at the back of the book, great.
SPEAKER_01All right. So with that, we're on to weapons and equipment. There are 50 entries from here. Sorry, Nicholas, I've I've I've usurped you as showrunner. Um uh here's what we are going to do. Each of us is going to choose one of these, or uh, like, or if there's two that are connected together, and we're just gonna go around and we're each gonna talk about one and we can we can open it up for discussion, and then if it and then we can do a second round.
SPEAKER_06Okay, so I'm gonna jump in because I I I really only have one that I care about, which I um am generally pleased about. It's it's C3 slash ECM. As a C3 user, play a fair amount of Dracronus Combine, so C3 is my jam. Um I like that ECM no longer totally negates C3. I am a little worried that if they I now understand better why they were manipulating the multipliers for you know, if you're if you have when you're building your C3 network. I will I'm cautiously optimistic that the net result will be the correct one. Um, but I I do have some concerns that they may have overcosted C3 it while you know giving it some bonuses against CCM that way. I would have rather have left it as is.
SPEAKER_01But go ahead. Let me uh let me uh uh butt in on you real quick.
SPEAKER_05Are you talking about yeah, in the book here it just says its BV costing system has been revived.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so so you went with so you you're you're talking about the the initial play test, it was all C3 networks are plus 30 BV per unit. In the scenarios pack, they changed it again.
SPEAKER_06Oh, what they changed it to?
SPEAKER_01I missed that. It's 20 for a two-unit network, 25 for a three-unit network, 30 for four or more units, and then boosted c three adds an additional five percent.
SPEAKER_05It's still more expensive for smaller unit deployments. Yeah, that's that's the thing. We've seen people use you know, two, three, or four linked units in a c3 in classic to great effect. I've brought a small c3 uh as part of my Wrestle Hog Force 1 Iliad season, and it functions great in small detachments and efficient. The problem I saw that people were complaining was the cost when you started bringing a full company of C3. And I'm just like, what?
SPEAKER_03Why? Why is that a big who is playing the kind of games where bringing a company of C3 in classic is is a concern?
SPEAKER_05I don't I feel like that's not a reason to change the fund of the mechanics of the game because someone's like my you know week-long in my basement permanent setup game is not as I can't bring the company fairly. Like I I don't understand the reason I get the ECM thing, that's fine. I think they're changing it to line of sight, they're doing some whatever things for that. Cool. Don't care. The fact that it the cost increased the cost increased so much for small deployments, I think is a bit ridiculous.
SPEAKER_06That I agree with. I I think it is um that's a bit much. I mean 20% is a bit much.
SPEAKER_01Um I think it's yeah, it's still it's still costly. We'll see how it I think the I think in general the fact that it is far less easily hard countered by ECM because uh again, uh not only does ECM simply degrade it, but ECM only works if you're if you actually manage to catch one of the nodes themselves within the network instead of being able to isolate them by cutting off line of sight. So I having played with it, I think it is it is going to be tricky to use, just because it is it is a significant cost still, but I think for the extra resilience they've added to it, I will I will wait to see how this functions because I think this is going to lead to I think the I think the added resilience is something they needed to factor into the cost because C3 can do some really nutty stuff when you do it right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's it's no longer hard countered by ECM, but also it's a lot easier to apply the ECM effect.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yes, you know, but also the the C3 unit has to have line of sight, but also for a four-unit deployment, like the cost is something what like 10% higher. Yeah, yeah. When it was already relatively expensive. I uh I'll wait. To make bigger C three deployments more valuable, they hurt smaller deployments, and I don't know.
SPEAKER_06Considering most people want to play, you know, of somewhere we'll say between five and ten thousand BD on average, to play in a reasonable amount of time, I think yeah, it did go a little bit too the percentages do go a bit much. Because you know, having a a two or or even we'll say a full lance, just one lance, that's expensive, uh you know, percentage-wise.
SPEAKER_05The thing is, I I get that in many ways it was annoying to calculate, you know, the five percent per each unit added together, but we are getting as battletech is getting more popular, we're getting tools that are making it much, much, much, much, much easier. You know, it's yeah, before Mech Bay, like my I I'm proud that my spreadsheet did it correctly. You don't have to load up Mega Mech, but now you have Mech Bay that does it for you, like you know, and these other apps and features. They could have just, I don't know, updated the master unit list to do C3, and suddenly, you know, people aren't trying to do it by by by hand with a calculator. Yeah. You know, like apps of implementation for some of these problematic things can make it so they're not really problems anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but yeah, I think the the resilience changes to C3 and the reduction in the kind of line of sight powers of ECM are good. We will see if the costs are correct, they do seem a bit steepy. Yeah. Alright. Nicholas, do you have a Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I have one overarching thoughts and two specific thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Alright. We're picking a change to a weapon and we're gonna do a mask. Okay. We already changed.
SPEAKER_05As somebody who uses masks all the time. I it was kind of silly how bad masks were compared to superchargers. Yes. I think if we weren't playing with a reroll mechanic, masks might be more punishing. But you know, this this feels like a little too far into making masks, less not feels bad because I know like the way we play and a lot of other systems are played, this just means I'm gonna be masking all the time.
SPEAKER_06There's no reason not to anymore.
SPEAKER_05If it's if it's a crit chance rather than just you lose basically lose a leg. Also, the crits are not as bad anymore. Oh, I got a crit to my thing. It actually doesn't affect my movement whatsoever in some cases, or oh, I lost a hip. Now I have lost one movement point on my Black Lantern. Alright, 7-11 to 6-9, yeah, that sucks, but hey, guess what?
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna mask again the next turn. Yeah, I think so. For reference, the new mask rule is it functions the same way superchargers do, where instead a failure, instead of causing automatic crits to each leg, causes a critical hit check for one leg. So you can still roll a 12 and blow the entire leg off. But aside from that, it is I it is I think much less punishing. I am going to push back on you, Nicholas, for one simple reason, which is the way super uh the way mask is costed right now is it assumes you can use it every turn. Um so I think the idea of making it easier for you to use the mech at its full capability is not a bad thing.
SPEAKER_05The thing is the th the the yes it's costed that way, but it doesn't uh because the thing is when you wanted it, you could you could use it, you know. You can I I don't feel like in terms of BV and opportunity costs, that's a sick that is a significant change, you know. I feel like it's appropriate to pay the BV cost for being able to move that far when you can move that far. It's it's not you know, it's it's not assuming every turn, it's assuming when you need to, you can, and that's totally true for mask. I do feel mask was BV appropriate previously, and now it's just better. I get that I honestly combined with again, I think the part of the problem is the combination of factors here. The fact that the they've made mask to a potential crit and they've made those crits less bad, I think mask is better than supercharger now.
SPEAKER_01I so I think the main thing, I I don't know if it's better than supercharger. I think the main difference between the two of them is mask does not destroy itself on a failure, it just destroyed your legs to the point where it would be foolish to use it previously. I think if the new rule is it functions identically to the supercharger, but the thing it applies the crits to is different, I think that's fine. Where if mask, if you fail a mask roll, you don't get masked for the rest of the game. I think that would that would be fine.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, you know what? If that was included, I think I would be okay with this, but it that doesn't say it's included.
SPEAKER_01That said, it does create this really funny situation now where if you fail a mask roll, you are encouraged to try and keep your speed up by masking again the next turn, increasing the chance of a second mask failure, which does lead to some really silly scenarios where you're try where you're like kind of trying to figure out if you could if you could make that seven up to a uh and uh uh manage to escape from a situation with an already broken leg, which I find very fun.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I would very often, you know, one turn mask and occasionally two turn mask, right? Rolling a five, you're more likely than not to get it on an on a risky move. It's worth it. I could see myself going up to five a lot now, and possibly even going up to seven in rare circumstances, because again, it's a chance for a crit, not a guaranteed crit.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you can feel the gambling, the gambling in it.
SPEAKER_05All right, so I mean this is this is the clicky clack, this is a clicky-clacky math rock game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05If it's not gambling, I don't know what is.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Alright. Uh John, do you have a uh change you want to talk about in here?
SPEAKER_02Uh no. I'm I'm pretty happy with most of them. I do like the changes to auto cannons. I I like they got I that was that was pretty nice across the board, ignoring the first crit and unjamming and all that fun stuff. So hopefully u X. Yep, yep. Hopefully more more auto cannons.
SPEAKER_05So the not jamming UX thing is problematic. I they didn't have to remove jamming, they could have just made them unjammable. You know, like if it's one of those things is okay, I I I get it. You you want to remove the feels bad moment, but there was or there's already a solution there. And you already made jamming easier to do. It's another instance of I feel like they just went a little bit too just too far in combination with everything else. And yeah, it I do feel this this comes out not too far after I think it's a conversation episode that didn't get released, where we talked about just how good autocannon tens are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And immediately at the beginning of this document, uh, it said that autocannons suck, like hands down, full stop. Period.
SPEAKER_01I I think, especially if they're with some of the other with some of the battlefield support changes they're doing, I think that the two and the five needed help, and the only way that you can help them is by categorically raising all ships in the class.
SPEAKER_05I'm not saying they didn't need help. I'm saying like I don't think the autocannon suck full stop is a good statement when I don't think they do. I'll put it this way if I'm customizing mechs, I do think they kind of suck. If I'm building custom mechs, I'm probably not gonna choose an autocannon 2 or autocanon five. If I'm playing the game with stock mechs, oh my gosh, auto canon tens are efficient and great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It said, oh dear, dear god help you if you try and put more than one of them on a mech. They do not work well if you try and both them.
SPEAKER_05Oh, there's there's a mech Garner was looking at and thinking about because he's non-stop trying to figure out what the heck he's actually gonna do in some of these tournaments, but there's a mech he pointed out that's like, hey, here's four auto cannon tens, I think two ultras, two LBs for like 2,200 BV on a decent mover. What the he I don't remember what mech it was. Okay, that thing's really good. Uh I said as Jaeger mech? No, but Jaeger mech is really good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. He likes the Jaeger mech, but no, this is something different.
SPEAKER_06Um yeah, it's got two ultra AC tens and two light AC5s and two medium ER mediums, but what has both of these in combination?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I know what it is. It's the uh it's the gladiator, it's the gladiator beam. Yeah, gladiator, yeah. That's it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01This thing is goofy, I haven't used it before.
SPEAKER_05Oh, and it's got jump too. Yeah. I was looking at it thing like that's a that's a such a solid mech.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Which gladiator is this? It's it's the gladiator-b A.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's a lot of things. Is that like the Marauder 2C2 or something? There it is. I found it. Okay.
SPEAKER_01It's they needed to they needed to fill a cannon hole, so they made a weird version of the Gladiator, which is better. Uh well, not better, it's a more conventional assaultback. Um I am out of these. I'm I'm gonna choose because yeah, I think I I agree with you, John. I think for the most part, the autocannon changes, I I'm big hot on most of this. I think the one I'm a little concerned about is I think the armor-piercing ammunition may still be too powerful if people are rocking up with some of the mechs which are loading a bunch of like light AC2s and just trying to pepper people down. I think that's gonna get really annoying really quickly. Um, but I will reserve judgment to see what that is. And that's also if that's the sort of thing where they need to push an emergency or rata, CGL has been very good about that sort of thing from on their PDFs, so I'm less worried about that being uh a super impactful thing.
SPEAKER_05Uh oh, I I know I already know the special munitions thing is gonna be something that we're going to have to uh correct format on our format level. Absolutely. Someone's gonna do something quirky, and I'm gonna have to fill in holes. 100%. I know that's going to be a thing.
SPEAKER_01I said everyone do one, I'm gonna do two because they're kind of connected. There are they have they have given some of the the like awful little missile systems that everyone forgets about, some new fun things to play with. Uh they've let Thunderbolt missiles use special munitions, which is hilarious. Um and they got rid of the they got rid of the arming time within the minimum range, which is kind of goofy.
SPEAKER_05They aren't giving them infernos, which I think is for the best, but I think I I I need to specify they've they've changed thunder bolts, they've also added thunder.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, I'm talking well, they've also added yeah, they've also added thunder, which is that I think if we want to talk about new counters, new exciting counters to Light Mex Nicholas, minefields are the new exciting counter. Um but the uh the other one is they have ch they have removed the plus one penalty from medium-range missiles, and they've stuck them with a cluster hit penalty instead, and they are apparently giving Artemis, uh, which is the uh special fire control system for Apollo. Yeah, so yeah, the the Apollo fire control has a new saturation mode, which I am excited to see what that does.
SPEAKER_02Oh no.
SPEAKER_01I don't I so I don't know what that is. If it is I have a theory, and my theory is it's going to let you use it as an artillery piece.
SPEAKER_02So, anyways, it gets this nifty saturation mode that we'll have to see what that means in the book.
SPEAKER_01I yeah, I'm I'm excited for it. MRMs are one of my favorite bad weapons. I don't take them enough because I think the plus one tends to not be worth it, and the range brackets are kind of wonky. But I think the changes to them, I am very excited to see what they do because I think it might be an interesting weapon type.
SPEAKER_02Well, it it goes up to an MRM 40, doesn't it? Is that the biggest?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it goes up to 40. Yeah. Like Luke's saying is one of my favorite bad weapons. I want to bring them more. It's a reminder of like the difference in the way Luke plays when he's playing just for fun and when he's playing to win.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Listen, I play Draconis Combine, and I have I just painted an Akuma, and I want to use that Akuma so bad.
SPEAKER_05Um I I so many of us in in terms of like the more veteran players are definitely sad and annoyed that your time is taken up with things that are not battle technically because we want to see you play more competitive stuff.
SPEAKER_01Missiles, we're coming up in the world. Oh, also, uh, extended LRMs uh no longer have a bunch of awful rules attached to them and can now use Artivis. Yay, yippee, this is definitely going to make them more effective.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_05Yep. Uh there's there's a lot here. Um overall, in terms of like the weapon section, I have some concerns in terms of what they're adding to core rules in a balance aspect, and I can talk about that a bit more later, but I think just in terms of like any individual thing, I feel like broadly it's good. Um, a lot of this stuff, my issues just come as from a competitive organizer, not necessarily as a player.
SPEAKER_06So so Nicholas, on the competitive aspects, I think, you know, and I I I know Garner has had this complaint about certain competitive classic events that say the MM rules only, and switching that to core rule books only, I think has the same exact problem, which is that the BattleMech manual.
SPEAKER_05I I talk about this later, but like the Battle Mac manual was not designed to be a competition for balanced and competitive books, it's designed to have include the most popular stuff. And I don't think this book is designed and intended for balanced play either. And like, oh there's a I have a whole long section, and I talk a bit about that in in the next section, but uh just in terms of weapons and equipment, it's cool. I mean I'm kind of excited to see what a light plasma rifle and heavy plasma rifle are. Yeah. Nothing good.
SPEAKER_04We didn't need a head copper that applied heat. What?
SPEAKER_03What? No.
SPEAKER_02Were any of these were any of these armors considered advanced? I forget.
SPEAKER_05Yes, all special armors were advanced.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, so basically that's just been introduced to Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's well well let well I've we've got a lot to say of that. Let's let's move on to battlefield support.
SPEAKER_01I um I have a I have a a quick thing for this in this just going, and this is just going off of what something John said earlier, which is that was a change that needed to happen because they clearly want Ilclan to be the kind of standard era now. It was a band-aid they needed to rip off.
SPEAKER_05In terms of like all the added equipment and special armor, all the armor.
SPEAKER_01Like sparrow lambler. Yep, like the like that stuff needed to be it. If they were going to be a good one.
SPEAKER_05There's there, I I there's the it could have been handled better and differently, and I like we can cover that later. Let's move on just to the next section here battlefield support. Which this is definitely, at least for me, a section that I will more fully judge as a whole, because I think there's definitely individual aspects in here that could be good, and there's individual aspects in here that I think are absolute horrible crap. Um, so you know, like I have strong opinions on battlefield support, particularly in a competitive environment, and I don't like that they're removing full vehicle rules.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. However, if you do need to use, if you do need to use these, I do like that they changed, that they go in the normal initiative now, they don't move first, and they broke up the attacks into multiple attack roles instead of an all or nothing. So those two changes goes a long way to making these more tolerable. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05As a narrative RPG thing, when you want battle mechs to be the heroes and to have little things that are on the side of the field that kind of like don't occupy too much time and and let you know your mercenary players be heroes in their mechs and whatnot, battlefield support vehicles and things, I think that's where they can serve a function. But in terms of immersive and balanced gameplay, going back to a previous topic, which is randomness does not feel good and does not actually contribute well to a competitive environment. And when you have units that can be very combat effective and they die randomly, you know, there's a random role when you reach a threshold where they either completely vanish or do refuse to be removed. I was gonna say then in the mech dichotomy, things are either made of balsa wood or titanium, and this just amplifies that up without understanding of cause and effect.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I just I have I have battlefield support RPG, cool competition, anything where you're playing against another person in a come in a com primarily competitive environment, they should never be used.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, and I'll I'll we'll wait to see because I know they have said they plan on having a separate non-mech uh like full rules unit book that they will be releasing at some point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, everything else is gonna come in another book.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Which yeah, I will especially, yeah, I will I will pass I will pass judgment on that when I when I see it, because I think there's definitely some squirreliness with vehicles that they could tighten up if they wanted to. Uh, and I would like to see how they deal with that.
SPEAKER_05This might be a bit of a hot take, but I think the overall the level of change in the rules here is more than just a new book. They're they're trying very hard to stress that this is not a new edition. Uh, but it's my opinion that simply by calling it Battletech Core Rule Book and excluding full vehicle rules, this is a new edition.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Their metric for an edition change was whether or not this book changed existing record sheets, and according to them, it does not, except they fail to understand that this new book invalidates every single full rules record sheet that is not a mech. Those rules are now optional, and BSPs are now core. Now, this might this might not meet the need for say a full integer version, but these changes are at least on the scale of say DD 3.0 to 3.5. By taking full vehicle rules out of the core rules and adding in battlefield support vehicles into core rules, they have fundamentally changed the mechanics of the game that now completely invalidate many of the ways people play. Sure, they may make a new vehicle book, but it will be outside of the quote core rule book, unquote. It will be optional, and the problematic BSPs will be at the core of the game. I also have some significant concerns behind their methodology for changes. In the developer notes document, it specifically mentioned that part of the reason the proposed side hit location tables were dropped was due to statistics provided by players. This implies to me that they did not do their own statistics. The proposed side tables were just objectively bad if you looked at them mathematically. And like many of the rules they are changing here. It really seems that the criteria for these changes was based on what feels good rather than how many of the these changes will impact the totality of gameplay. You heard me previously talking about like some of these rules individually, I like, but as a totality, I have an issue with the the push they're making in different directions of the game. I mean, that said, nothing I have read is so bad that would stop me from enjoying the game. It does cause a lot of concern and problems for me as an organizer and format creator. The first being how this book is coming out as a complete rule book without complete rules. BSPs are not complete rules. They have also not made any adjustments to battle value, nor have they apparently made any considerations for what equipment is balanced for competitive play. Previous editions of Battletech have kept their own problematic rules level designations in part to keep interesting but potentially unbalanced equipment out of quote turdomant, unquote, play. However, these rules level designations were combined with an in-universe tech level, which was honestly, I think, idiotic and a constant frustration for pretty much every single CDT agent. There was a constant pressure, particularly from up high, to add technology, add equipment as it becomes widely available and product in production in universe to standard rules or out of experimental into advanced. And it doesn't seem like a lot of consideration was made to keep the game balanced. The Battle Mech manual is made without balance or rules level in consideration, and was made and intended to give players easier to understand rules for the most popular use mech things. I think yes, but the problem was that they were combined, not that they existed. I think they could keep all of the equipment that they're adding, they could keep all of it, and all they have to do is make a designation in there and say this is you know, this is standard, this is advanced, this is standard, this is advanced in the same book, just to have some consideration for what is a balanced game versus just a deep and interesting narrative type of game. You know, I like some of the changes, I dislike, but most of all, particularly because this is one book coming out, this is not a combination of this book and a tech manual and BV changes and a vehicle book. This is one book coming out on its own with so many changes, and it doesn't have companions, it doesn't have an expanded sort of feel to it. You know, it's not like you know, DD 3.5. It came out with the player's handbook, the monster manual, and the dungeon master's guide all at the same time. Imagine if, hey, we're making DD 3.5, here's a dungeon master's guide. And you're like, wait, how do I implement all of this? Just wait, we're coming up with a monster manual eventually. You know, this feels very rushed.
SPEAKER_06I can agree with that, and uh I I think where my concern is is speed on the follow-up books. I I I would put money down that CGL has in their plans to come up with the next set of books, like uh whether it be uh technically. They're not coming fast, and I think that their way that they were working with the force manuals, Davi and then Karita and now Mercenaries, as was mentioned by John, where they're still dealing with, you know, like hey, we're still in civil war, and we'll come out with the Ilklan PDFs, you know, coming out soon, PM. You know, it's like guys, I mean, I agree that there's a rush for this, but you know, I think it's also a call for at least some patients. Like if they're not maybe they're not complete rules, maybe it's as players, it's gonna be hey, you know, this year we're gonna implement these aspects, and next year we'll implement the next phase, and then we'll get the rest of the books, you know. But I guess I mean overall, I think this is gonna be good changes to the rules. There will be pain. I I don't think that it won't be hard, but the net result will be positive growth for battle tag. I think it's going to reduce and explain some of the complexity in the rules, you know. So, like I was saying, skidding rules, you know, that was a good thing. Get rid of that. It was causing four pages of nonsense that really did not help. Um, I don't think this is gonna result in a schism, say something like between D D and Pathfinder. These changes are evolutionary and not revolutionary. I don't think it's uh it's gonna be yeah, it's gonna be pain, but not the end of the world.
SPEAKER_05I mean, 3.0 to 3.5 was an improvement. Yes, like 3.5 was 3.0 was okay. 3.5 was great. They really they made a a lot of changes from second edition to third edition, and they had some issues that they needed to you know ring out, and 3.5 came out, and it was I still my favorite edition.
SPEAKER_06Yes, 4.0 was terrible, and that caused what the schism. I don't think it's that. That's I think where where I'm landing is that's the analogy. Is this is not this is not a uh is it would be closer to the three to three point five, where it's uh yeah, it's it's a significant change, but it is not uh a full dot or full version change, it's a dot version.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It's yeah. John is it sorry, Jason?
SPEAKER_02Just that I liked uh just that I liked fourth edition.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I thought I heard it.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, no. I have strong opinions on the case.
SPEAKER_02I was deep into World of Warcraft, like it was right in my wheelhouse, but I also understand it was not DD. Fourth edition was a yeah, right.
SPEAKER_05Fourth edition was a good miniatures game, it was a pen and paper MMO.
SPEAKER_02Oh, best tactical DD game I've ever played.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Tactical DD, but it wasn't like it wasn't an immersive RPG, right? You go from No, no, out of combat, I didn't know what to do. It I hear, like, yeah, people who played it like a miniatures war game really enjoyed it. Uh, but you know, like you had DD 3.5, which definitely had more of a simulator vibe where it had left there's a rule to roll for everything, particularly if you get past the books. You have 4.0, which is like, hey, we made basically a miniatures war game, and it's kind of the root of DD almost with Chainmail and sort of what they started to do with some of the minis, and people really didn't like that. Pathfinder 3.75 really took off, and then fifth edition came out, which was less immersive and more kind of cooperative storytelling, where the broad strokes are there and you're left to sort of fill in with your imagination rather than the nuance of the details. And now you are, I guess, 5.5 with DD Beyond.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I haven't really gone into Beyond Much myself, but I think in terms of Fifth and Beyond are the most popular DD has ever been. And while I can't say it's my favorite, the amount I've played is it's been enjoyable, and I think in terms of battle tech, really the the the mech rules and changes they've made are you know on an individual basis, you know, kind of okay. I have some problems with methodology, and then ultimately, like I I I feel like I just my instinct from what I've seen so far is that they should have waited, they should have put a little more thought and planning because I have I have concerns that are already being raised.
SPEAKER_06I I think you know, to that point, I I can agree. There's nothing that immediately demands that they release the core rule book, like there's no fundamental problems that you know we haven't already solved, like either you know, with house rules or just those are optional rules and we're ignoring it. The the the the market or the community doesn't require a core rule book change today, it will take it on, but it doesn't demand it. And I think if they had delayed it and come up with other rule books to uh go along with it, it would have been a better release. You figure 40th edition books were just printed last year.
SPEAKER_02They just came out, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, they just came out like to push uh I mean like that's where I agree that you know they could have paused on on uh releasing a core book until they had all the you know the dungeon master guides and monster manuals and all the other assistant books. At least the vehicles and and you know uh aerospace and interstellar ops could probably have waved uh waited, but yes, a vehicle rule book would have been useful or a mech construction book, you know. That kind of a thing I think would have been a good idea. Oh, I gotta buy the 48th edition book, and oh, it's already outdated. That isn't that great. You know, that's that's disappointing.
SPEAKER_05That's well, yeah, because the the the 40th box had like different cover art and stuff and everything, right?
SPEAKER_01No, I think the 40th edition box art was pretty bad, but yes.
SPEAKER_06I I'm just suggesting that you know, I mean, like for me who's more or less returning to the game, you know, I made investments in in buying the latest books because they were the 40th edition. I figured, hey, these will be great for a long time. And to find out that nope, they're they're good for all of about a year, you know, that's that's you know, that's max of the game.
SPEAKER_02I will say that's been the one other games bonus of uh Total Warfare has been out of print for months now. So at least they haven't been selling people Total Warfare right up until the new one comes out. But yeah. Although you still need it if you want vehicles, yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's uh yeah, I'll that's that's the other problem.
SPEAKER_05If you want to play with full vehicle and infantry and battle armor rules, you still have to bring out total warfare, right? And that causes more issues. I I feel like not coming out with full rules for everything all at once, it it it feels it it feels like it feels rushed. Or maybe they think maybe they think BSPs will will do the job, but I think for a lot of people they will.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Um I think for things like hinterlands and you know uh that kind of uh we'll call it non-competitive uh you know role-playing kind of elements, I think it's great. I I don't think it works for a competitive mindset, and you know, it's entirely possible.
SPEAKER_05Maybe we're just the odd ones that we actually play competitive, and everyone else is just narrowed.
SPEAKER_06I know that you play DSPs. What are you crazy?
SPEAKER_05I yeah, but tournament classic tournaments are growing, yes, they are, uh very much so.
SPEAKER_06Uh and I'm glad to see it. It's making me want to play more classic, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_05So now, in terms of you know, our implementation, I I've we've been talking about this as I'm thinking about this for a long time, and particularly when thinking about you know, Zest is going to be trying to push and run a major tournament whose you know rules and format is largely you know Iliad with some changes where we could almost I'd almost consider that something not quite created by us, but inspired by us, and then like if our rules are a major part of a of a big tournament, I'm happy. And I still want Iliad to focus on something that in theory, not maybe not in practice yet, but in theory is something that people could pick up and run and use anywhere as a very thorough, thorough format. I think if that is still the intention, we should switch to this book. Yeah. As problematic as that might be, and what to do, how to do that is is a question.
SPEAKER_01So, my my opinion, and this is my my general thing, is for this, I would recommend. I mean, I would recommend doing basically not switching out like the day of launch and basically doing a moratorium until the end of the year and then reassessing then. Because that'll be that'll be the easiest way to do it of just being like, hey, this is a this is a brand new book. We're looking into implementing it, but there's some big kind of seismic changes it did, and we need to rework our format around those. And I think that's a that's a reasonable thing to do.
SPEAKER_05I I might might just switch to eliminating combined arms and allowing people to play with either Total Warfare or new core rules. Yeah. So it gives time to people to play, gives us some time and information to go through. I think we've discussed in the past switching list checking to mech bay instead of the master unit list. And if we switch to mech bay, we could provide people with a direct link to a filter that eliminates things that we want not included right off the start. Right as an easy access. Like, yeah, we we create a manual list people can look at, but if we provide them with a click this link and the filter eliminates blue shield or whatever, yeah, as a default thing, so that it's easier for people to not fall victim to grabbing something that's illegal, or so it's not difficult for us to list check, yeah, you know, and have something slip through the cracks that elite that's illegal. Plus, if they're eliminating standard advanced experimental, it means that MacBay's variable tech level, which was part of the problem of using it, is no longer an issue.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I think with I so I think with regards to equipment, if you go to the core book and you are letting people play out of the core book, you need to let people use the options from the core book. Like it's it's going to have to happen.
SPEAKER_05I don't know about all of the options.
SPEAKER_01I think artillery weapon like I think artillery is a reasonable ban, but I think you can't go and start ticky tacking out of um the like gear or stuff.
SPEAKER_05I mean, you can't voice signature system. There there's there's hard L3. I mean, there's things that we can have conversations about. Like radical heat sink system, it's masked heat sinks. I don't think that's you know, there's a risk, there's a built-in risk reward of explosion or whatever. I'm not concerned about that. But you know, certain things are worth having a conversation about in terms of should they be allowed or not. I know we've talked about previously you can have one unit of um special armor so that somebody doesn't show up with, hey, look, all hardened or whatever. So yeah. Like there's there's things what we are going to have to do and adjust and consider special ammunitions. Also depends on the Master Universe and Mechbait and how they adjust. But I think for a while, being mechs only, still standard rules, you can play with Total Warfare or new BMM. We recommend new BM or core rules. We recommend core rules, but if you don't have the book, you're not familiar enough, you and your opponent can still play Total Warfare as you know a extent a vocalized extension of the rule of consent. That might be what we could do to play things out and get a feel for people playing the the new rules. That's just a thought for now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. We'll see. Um on that's gonna be a whole other episode. Yeah, yeah, dealing with the outcomes of this. And then I do just I do just want to briefly mention the uh the new boxes they're coming out with, the new starter box and the core box set. I'm I'm excited for these from a mech standpoint. I think all of the stuff they've included are some real heaters for like we are we are moving the timeline up. This is no longer we are no longer kind of stuck in like this weird interstitial period between clan invasion and 3025. This is now a game where we are focusing on Oakland. Uh, I am very curious to see what they're doing with the starter box. Because uh in so the starter box, for those who are not aware, this is a extension of their previous introductory and essentials boxes, which give you kind of a very truncated learn-to-play version of the rules. Um and previously these have featured basically introtech mechs. The mechs they have put in this it this time are the Hammerhead, which is a clan tech they're both clan tech mechs, but it's the hammerhead, which uses uh hardened armor and a number of kind of special weapons and actuator enhancements. And the Contio, which is maybe one of the most powerful beneficiaries of some of the melee changes in the game, but it is a triple strength Majomer Stealth Melee mech. And that is a big step change in the amount of trust they're giving new players. I did go and watch Tuesday Newsday, which um I think it was Randall, uh, had some explanations about how they're planning on handling it, and it's it's basically we trust the average Battletech player to know what like the person who is interested in this game to be able to handle these much better, and we think they're going to be a much more exciting introduction to the game. They also talk a lot about basically spoon feeding out some of the equipment over time. So this I'm interested in because it if they were just doing another introductory box, I would be concerned because it would at these seem like mechs that are wholly unsuited for an introductory box. If they have actually taken the time to make an introductory box that can actually teach you all of the functions of the Contio, I think that's a I think that's a big step change up in terms of the trust they're giving new players and also in terms of their interest in providing for new player experience. So we will see. I am uh very interested to see what's going on there. I'm definitely gonna get the box because I want a Contio. I'm definitely gonna get the core box because I want basically everything in that box. I want my Rock Shassa. So let me, and I I will just kind of reiterate again what he said, but it was basically their argument was for a long time they set introductory products in 3025 because it was considered easy tech and also kind of the introduction to the game from their experience talking with people who ran their grinder games, and I think we've also seen this with our salvage games. If someone is receptive enough to play a game of battle tech, they can handle a more advanced mech, and you don't need to hand them a really boring intro tech slog fest in order to get them interested in the game. You want to hand them something kind of electrifying, and from that perspective, I understand why they went with the mechs they did.
SPEAKER_06The cons go is definitely electrifying.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you bring up a good point, and something in in particular to consider is it is very easy to pick up and play and have a good experience with complex rules when you're playing with one mech. And so giving somebody one mech to learn and learn all of its complex interactions is not a big ask. You're right. Like that's the that's in the salvage. You someone can join the salvage if they've played, you know, one like learn to play thing. As long as somebody's around them to remind them, like, hey, that's a cool piece of equipment. It does this. People play and have a great time.
SPEAKER_01It sounds like they've also the way they're doing it is they're they stage out and they give you multiple record sheets for each of the introductory mechs. So there's one which is just basic movement and shooting, and then there's another one which introduces things like the claw attacks and melee and uh like actuator and so you're not so like I said, I'll be very interested to see what that turns into in sum. But I think the focus on creating a better new player experience, I think, is uh admirable. Because I don't know if you guys have read them, but I I I do not like the intro I do not like the introductory box or the essentials box. I don't think they're good introductions to the game.
SPEAKER_05I I think as we're getting new players in, people who are not beholden to the grognar love of pre-clans and clan invasion, moving away from that sort of die hard fan base, like die on a hill territory and pushing into Ilklan is really gonna make the game grow.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I also just think like rifleman versus centurion with an AC-20, and also you've removed heat rules, is a really bad fight. And that's what essentials put you into. Or two mechs with jump jets kind of like pinging off each other because neither of them can hit each other in the Starbox.
SPEAKER_05I bought it for the mechs for the$20 coupon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and with essentials being the long-awaited Solaris rules re-release, and it was a super watered-down version of it. It's like why they chose Solaris as the setting, but gave you none of the Solaris stuff was kind of odd.
SPEAKER_01But yeah. Yeah, uh a box with a mech that has a hatchet and they didn't give the mech at it, they didn't give you the hatchet rules. Like, so if they're working, if they're working on actually putting like effort into making the the new player experience better, I am all for that. I think that is gonna be super cool. Uh, I think the core box, if it is just basically Beague armored combat, I I talked about this earlier. I think some of the the weight class matchups in that are kind of hydrogen bomb versus coughing baby. The uh the Hollander getting matched up against a solitaire is hilarious. Because on one hand, you have famously, famously kind of sacrifices everything to mount half of its total tonnage in one big gun versus uh a mech kind of double its speed with twice its firepower.
SPEAKER_02Hey, but at least there's no PSR for firing that thing anymore.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, it's not even a Holly, it's not a Holly 2, it's just the basic, it's just the base Hollander with the Gauss rifle. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02Nice.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, that the Rock Shassa versus the uh Mad Dog Mark IV is like, I like my rock shassas, those are not comparable, Max. I hope they I'm guessing they're giving us a new version of it, and I I I wish it's good.
SPEAKER_05Alright, gentlemen, as we are approaching the two hour 30-minute mark, I'm going to make the executive decision that we're gonna skip games played, and I'm opening up to closing remarks. Any sort of final thoughts, things you want to get off your chest and mention as we come to a close here.
SPEAKER_06I'm good. I think we talked a lot, and I think it's all gonna come out in the end.
SPEAKER_02Yep. I'm I'm looking forward to all of this. The boxes, the rules, the books. I'm I overall, I think this is a good thing.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02It's it's gonna be a little bumpy, but I'm I'm looking forward to it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yep. I am I am tentatively excited. I think this is as far as rollouts go, I think this is one of the smoother ones I've seen from Catalyst, and I am excited to see what they do with some of this stuff. Uh, we haven't talked about it, but I'm also excited to get a whole bunch more ghost bears when that snowblind box comes out.
SPEAKER_05I'm thinking now my position might be summed up into an analogy of the game, you know, the the big video game as you approach release day where you're like this thing's gonna have bugs and it's gonna need some patches day of. What is it? What's the what's the game they just released that has like so many problems? Crimson something.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I was gonna say, is this is this the cyberpunk release?
SPEAKER_05Because this sounds like cyberpunk is a good analogy. I'm looking at this thing and thinking like I'm getting cyberpunk vibes. I'm thinking like this is we're like if if they if they don't patch it, I'm gonna have to like find some mods to patch it. And I think it's gonna be at the core good. The core rulebooks could be at core good. I'm gonna enjoy it and have some fun experience, but I don't think I'm going to like it entirely out of the box, so to say.
SPEAKER_01But also, like, Randall builds is not coming into your house and stealing your copy of Total Warfare, like we will still have that. So if it's catastrophic, battle tech will still be played. Exactly.
SPEAKER_05I'll still play Battle. It's just you know, trying to run a competitive league is going to be it's gonna yeah, it's gonna change.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's a lot of regulars. Well, I mean, one of the one of the founding principles of uh the Legion and the League has always been kind of healthy community discussion and debate and making the most of community connections. And I think this will be a test of those, but I don't based on our local players, I have no doubt we'll be able to come to a conclusion that will be good for everyone.
SPEAKER_05I I appreciate your optimism in relation to my pessimism.
SPEAKER_01Listen, this wouldn't be a good podcast if we all just agreed with each other. I need to I need to I need to take I need to take a suddy disposition here, not the least because I do have a suddy disposition, but also because it makes it a better podcast.
SPEAKER_05I've I've expressed this before, and I'm gonna express it, express this again. I I really this would not be the the Legion, our local gameplay, the things we're creating would not be the same without like without you Luke, without Garner, and without a team of people to very specifically point out when I have a bad idea.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_05I I I call it I call it the the George Lucas effect, where if you remember for the the original trilogy, there was a team of people, very talented, intelligent people who were also directors who when George Lucas had an idea, they could look at him go, like, that's a bad idea, George. We're not doing that. But for the sequel trilogy, George had a bigger head and people weren't around to tell him no, and that's how you get like the the Japanese whale aliens in Jar Jar Binx. So you guys are preventing me from creating a Jar Jar Binx of battle.
SPEAKER_01I I mean I was gonna say, isn't that basically what the uh the uh the the the the the the unpersoned book was about it's all good well thank you John thank you Chris and as always thank you look at Luke Thank you for listening to the Odysseus Legion podcast.
SPEAKER_05This podcast was created by the Odysseus Legion, a battletech club organizing play around central and western New York State. Rules for all of our formats, as well as a calendar of Odysseus Legion events, can be found on our website, OdysseusLegion.com. All music and audio in this recording was licensed through Adobe Stock or open source. All views expressed herein are those of the person expressed to them and do not necessarily represent the views of the Odysseus Legion, Catalyst Game Labs, or the Catalyst Demo team. Please make sure to like and subscribe to the Odysseus Legion podcast on your podcast platform of choice or on our YouTube channel. Have a great day.
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