A Marine's TBM Legacy: Honoring His Father Through the Museum Winged Victory Ep 39

Scott and guest host Nicole Bertola sit down with veteran and friend of the museum and talk about his fathers legacy flying TBM's and more throughout several wars as well as how he has been able to share his fathers story through the museum.  It is an endearing story of a son's love for his father.

#warbirds #museum #flying  #podcast  #planes  #history #aviation  #family #nationalmuseumofwwiiaviation #grumman #TBMAvenger 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Hello everyone, and welcome to Winged Victory with Rob and Scott, a podcast by the National Museum of World War II Aviation here in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

SPEAKER_05 1:30

Welcome to another episode. I'm Scott Clares, and my normal co-host, Rob Gale, is off today. So sitting in with us is two-time guest, Nicole Batola.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Hey Scott. Hi, Nicole.

SPEAKER_05 1:41

Happy to be here. Glad to have you here. Thank you for sitting down and doing this with us.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Of course. Sorry I don't have a sultry voice of the normal Rob.

SPEAKER_05 1:47

Well, you know, there's only one Rob Gale. Only one. And he will be back next week. So we're missing them, but we appreciate you sitting in with him or with me today, I should say. So today we have a special guest. He's a friend of the museum. He's uh got a pretty amazing story. His dad is uh was used to fly TBMs in World War II, and so we're gonna actually sit down and talk about all this. And Mr. Mark Cooper.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Hi, thank you. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_05 2:17

We really appreciate you sitting down with us for sure. This is a big deal. That's a good deal.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

It's just it's you know, this is for my father, this is for the museum. Yeah. Uh it's just been a phenomenal experience being with you guys.

SPEAKER_05 2:30

So, speaking of your father, how did he uh start out in the service?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Uh you know, he was in high school, um, went to college, went to the academy, and he just wanted to fly. He's always dreamt of flying. He was a depression air uh depression area era era uh baby, and he thought, you know, flying, being in the military, serving my country was something he wanted to do. Uh his parents came from Belarus, and they said, This country was gracious enough to open their arms for us. You will serve this country one way or another. And he chose uh the Navy at the time, uh, from the Navy to the Marines, and uh twenty-three years later, uh it's it was his passion.

SPEAKER_05 3:21

Yeah. So what was his name?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Carl Cooper.

SPEAKER_05 3:24

Carl Cooper.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

But it used to be Karl Lubovich. And they were from uh Minsk, Belarus. They came over kind of the uh fiddler on the roof story, where the Bolsheviks pushed him out of Belarus. Uh they came to uh New York with nothing, and um, you know, it was just his way of again serving the country that that opened their arms to his family. So when did he enlist? He enlisted, I think, 1939, 1938. Okay, so things were starting to heat up at Malaysia and Well 39 uh Poland was invaded. Yeah. And we still weren't in the war yet. No. But we were slowly getting dragged in because of the oil and because of different things. And uh when he went to flight school, um we were already at war. It was already December uh 7th of 41. Uh Japanese had already attacked Pearl Harbor, and that's basically right after that is when he went to flight school.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Did he know immediately that he wanted to fly?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

He knew he wanted to fly, yes. Yeah, he didn't want to be on a ship, he didn't want to be a ground pounder. He just he always had dreams of flying ever since he was a little kid, and he saw some of the basic barn stormers and biplanes and things like that.

SPEAKER_05 4:52

So uh so what was his path? He he so he starts flight school, where is he at in flight school?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

He went to Pensacola. Okay, and he flew uh the steerman. In fact, a lot of his memorabilia you'll see uh his first day of flight school where he's got leather gloves up to here, he's got the leather skull cap on, everything's pristine. I have a picture that I carry on my phone of his first day.

SPEAKER_05 5:18

Yeah, you just I've had a couple of weeks of Pensacola, and that that stuff started getting shedded.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

I love his face in that picture, all white-eyed and ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

It was his first day. He had his hand on the prop, and uh in fact, we just looked at the picture. Uh, so he went from um uh Pensacola Steerman's and then they flew the uh T6 SNJ, uh kind of interim, you know, fighter type plane to learn more aerial maneuvers.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

And then the Marine Corps was starting a torpedo bomber squadron, and it was called VMTB 134, and it was in Santa Barbara, and uh they all got shipped to Santa Barbara and learned how to fly the torpedo bomber, which is behind us.

SPEAKER_05 6:05

So they actually started in the TBMs, they didn't they didn't start in some older.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

No, they went right to the TBMs, and they were it was a brand new Marine Corps squadron, which was the first one ever activated in the Marine Corps history.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, wow. Did he ever describe what it was like flying the TBM?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

He said it was low and slow. And uh I had a uh a pilot here. Um I was fortunate to go up with Ian, and um when we were flying, we were talking about it, and he said, you know, your father, you probably never thought about it this way, but the TBM pilots, when they were flying, they had to fly, you know, 50 feet off the water and straight. They couldn't turn at all because once you release a torpedo, if you turn the plane a little bit, the torpedo's gonna hook. If you're too low and you release at a certain angle, it's gonna go underneath the boat. If you're too high, it's just gonna hit above the water line. So he said, I don't know how your father walked with you know giant cojones. Yes. Yes. And um, I never thought about it that way. And then it makes you think about the you know, the dive bomber pilots. These guys are flying at an angle of attack like this, and they can't do this, they can't do this, you know, they can't move either. They're flying fast and and straight down almost.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Straight into all the flak.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Right.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

But at least they got gravity going for them when the guys are shooting the bullets up, the gravity's working against the bullets where you're on a straight line.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

They're just kind of everybody on the deck is shooting straight line.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

It's like you know, when you go to you ever been in the carnival and you've got that water game and you're trying to hit the target, and you just gotta sit there and you just find that trajectory, and then you're set, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

But he um he said that uh he just loved flying this plane, it was just a sturdy platform. Um he uh it could take a lot of fire, you know, a lot of hits and keep flying. Um he really enjoyed it. And uh one thing that uh that we were just talking about was somebody that he had met in uh flight school in Santa Barbara, Cal Hutchins, they remained friends throughout their whole Marine Corps career, and it was just neat to see that you know you make a friend and 23 years later you're still flying with them.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

So that was that was actually pretty neat to see. And then his son and I became friends and stayed in contact.

SPEAKER_05 8:45

So he was island hopping, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:47

He was island hopping. They were never carrier-based, yeah. But they flew in um, you know, they were 100% uh Pacific for all their missions. And um he, you know, he would explain to me what the islands were like, the air raids, uh, the coming back, every mission you'd come back, first thing they would do is patch holes, yeah, you know, assess damage, assess damage, uh, reload the torpedoes, reload their ammunition, and uh they were back out. In fact, his flight logbook is over here, and I just showed Nicole one of the pages that's on my phone, and it's anti-sub patrol, anti-sub patrol, anti-sub patrol, strike on Japanese boat, anti-sub patrol, strike on Japanese boat, fired rockets. So these actually can, you know, they had rockets on these, they had the torpedoes.

SPEAKER_05 9:46

Oh, yeah, they were figuring out however they could to get anything on these things that they could to use against against the enemy, you know. That was kind of the thing about the island stuff is there was a lot of ingenuity going on with the airplanes, you know, in the field. Yeah. Hey, you know, we could we could put this on this, you know. B-25, hey, let's put eight 50 caliber guns in the nose. Hey, let's put a tank cannon in it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Well, and that's yesterday when we were talking, you were telling Chuck Fogelman, who was a Navy flight surgeon, that they put a tank cannon in the bit in the in the nose of a B-25. They had what I think you said eight 50 calibers up there at one point.

SPEAKER_05 10:24

Yeah, that's just in the nose. Right. I didn't work the side pond in the top turret. Right. I mean, you had serious firepower on that side.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

You know, and and necessity is the mother of invention. And back then, you know, you didn't have time to test. You just went up and said, Did it work? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_02 10:42

That is the test. That is the test.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Go for it, and if it works, then we'll keep doing it.

SPEAKER_05 10:47

So he's out island hopping like in the in 43, like in the in the middle of it all. I mean, it's really like that's really when the the tide of the wars.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

End of 42 through 45.

SPEAKER_05 10:58

Yeah. So he was he flew that entire time.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:01

That's pretty amazing, especially in a TVM.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Well, and what's crazy is if you look at his flight logs, which you guys have here at the museum, if you look at the number of hours that he flew, today you couldn't do that. I mean, they were literally flying two, three times a day, every day. They may have one day off. And then their one day off was the part of the squadron was still flying missions, they would come back just to sleep, and then they'd get four, five, six hours of sleep. They were back out on missions.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Well, Mark, I know that there's a pretty uh pretty amazing story about your dad on his day off.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

That says a lot about him.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

He um he had a day off, and actually I just showed Nicole the picture, and one of the Navy SB2C pilots came up and said, Hey Coop, how'd you like to fly as a rear gunner on my dive bomber? My dad goes, Yeah, why not? I've got nothing but time. So I showed her the picture of my dad waving with the one finger right before they take off. And my dad flew a dive bomb mission, and he was the rear gunner.

SPEAKER_05 12:13

So there goes my whole theory that I tell everybody when they look at the hell diver, they always ask, the question they always ask in the back is, Well, is there an interrupter on the gun so you don't shoot the tail off? And I always tell them, No, they're they're highly trained gunmen. Well, that goes out of the out of the air there to put anybody back there.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

And I don't I never asked them the question about the interruptor, but I'm sure the Navy pilot said, Coop, whatever you do, don't shoot a rudder off. Yeah, the interrupter's right here.

SPEAKER_04 12:43

I mean, we don't want to use the chutes today.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

And I just remember him saying it was the most unbelievable ride he ever had, going like this and looking up this way and having to swivel.

SPEAKER_05 12:56

So is is this something that that he would when he came back and as you're growing up, he's kind of telling you these stories? Or is this something that you got later on in life with him?

SPEAKER_01 13:06

It's it's later on in life. My father was the epitome of Marines. If there's a movie called The Great Santini with Robert Duvall, and I ask a lot of people, have you ever seen that movie? They go, Oh yeah. And I go, I had a wonderful childhood because my father was not as bad, but he was as stract as you know the great Santini was. And I used to ask him a lot about, you know, Dad, what about tell me about the war? And he goes, Well, I don't want to want to talk about it now. He started talking to me about the war and about his Marine Corps days when I came back from Saigon in the Army. He goes, You have now earned the right to hear my stories. When his friends would come over, they this is how they they this is how they talked. You know, they would go, you remember so-and-so, we do this, you know. This they they never really said a lot of words. They'd go, Yeah, remember that one boat? You know, that's this is how they spoke. When I finally came back from Saigon and getting ready to go to college, he said, You've learned the right. What do you want to know? And that's when I, you know, that by that time, you know, I'm 20 years old, and I could really understand. And you know, I've already been in combat now.

SPEAKER_05 14:29

Yeah, now you know what questions ask, what to maybe stay away from.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

And you know, there were days that I just, you know, back then you were either shell shocked or you had, you know, battle fatigue. And I never understood why once in a while I'd go, hey mom, how come dad's in his bedroom? You know, how come he hasn't come out for two or three days? They didn't know about PTT, you know, PTSD back then.

SPEAKER_04 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

And he had, you know, he had days where he had weeks and weeks and weeks of good days, and sometimes, you know, you could see him kind of going back to the war. And it wasn't just um, you know, it wasn't just World War II. He flew missions in Korea and uh air gunner instructor 62, 63 in Vietnam. So he had the gamut of Yeah, he had a really big gamut of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:22

That's that's amazing service. Oh, he again I mean, yeah, the idea of being I mean, I always thought that the those guys would do tours for like, you know, and do 50 missions or whatever, and then they'd be out, but he he went for three years.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

If you again, when you look at his logbooks and you look at the dates, you're gonna go, wow, even the pictures here that have some of the handwriting of the dates 45, 44, 42, or 43. Yeah. He um I think he was the kind of pilot that even if they said, Coop, you gotta go home, he'd go, nah, I'm gonna stay. I'm gonna fly a little bit more.

SPEAKER_05 16:02

Yeah. That's what you say. You know, he had a passion for I mean his his parents put it into him that, hey, you're gonna serve this country that has given us everything, you can give us in a home. And then the fact that he had the flying bug as well. Right. I mean, you're not gonna leave there and then go home and probably do much flying.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Well, you as a pilot.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

If if if if every day somebody said, Here are the keys of this plane, you'd be up in the air.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

Well, maybe. If you're not paying the gas, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

I'm not paying the gas. Right. If they said we get we're giving you gas and here are the keys.

SPEAKER_05 16:38

Yeah, you know, sure, of course. Yeah, it wouldn't do except for I'm not getting shot at at the same time. You know.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 16:45

Did he ever have any real close experiences that he told you about?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

He had one honestly, um, you know, they they took they took bullets and they took flack. Nothing that ever made them crash or he had to bail out. He did have one experience in a TBM. They were uh stateside, and they were in uh Pensacola, and engine failure.

SPEAKER_05 17:09

Of course, stateside. Right, not even in the war.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

No, of course. He had an engine failure, and he circled around the beach, landed it on the beach, you know, belly up. Yeah, and I guess some army guys were in a Jeep saw it come down. They came over, my dad walked her to this army MP and goes, watch this plane. Got in his Jeep and drove to the base. So, you know, that's that's that was his only uh his only crash. It was just a belly, belly landing on the beach. That's pretty funny. But most of it was, you know, come back to whatever island they were on. Uh his uh his tech sergeant uh would figure out what we need to patch, what needs to be fixed, go out the next day, and a lot of these planes were held together with uh winged a pair of bubblegum bailing wires. You know, they didn't have speed tape back then. Yeah, but if they would have had duct tape or speed tape, it would have been all over the plains.

unknown 18:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

You know, and speaking of that, you have to have you know a lot of trust in your crew. I mean, to be able to keep these flying, to trust that. Yeah, did he maintain relationships with a lot of those men?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Maury Horowitz was brought he brought Maury with him every island, every Korea and Vietnam. He was Maury was, I think, an E8. You know, my dad was uh uh uh an an O5 or O4. And uh Maury and him were best friends. You know, Maury maintained his planes for 22 years.

SPEAKER_05 18:46

That's amazing. So he was able to just keep him with him the whole entire time.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

And then Maury became like the squadron, you know, head mechanic.

SPEAKER_05 18:54

Well, the fact that he can go through all these missions and get back safely every single time, I think I would do the exact same thing. Yeah, I I would almost put that guy in my airplane because I'm gonna just get in the airplane.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

You know, Maury was one of these guys that uh, again, his parents came from Belarus. Um, he didn't want to fly, he chose more of the mechanical side. And my dad and Maury, um, you know, even though he wasn't enlisted, my dad was an officer, they were best friends.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

And Maury lived in Southern Cal after the war. So he would come over all the time. And in fact, he became a Russian linguist at uh UNLV in Vegas, where he taught Russian. Oh wow. Yeah. Very cool. So it was uh So you got to know him. I got to know him really well. He was kind of like my my uncle growing up.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:43

So did you get a lot of the same uh stuff that your your dad got from his parents growing up that you were gonna serve this country? I did. In some ways, short shape or form somehow.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Yeah. My my dad said, you know, Mark, um it's up to you, but I hope you serve this country in one form and another another. I um I always wanted to be, I I always loved the spy stuff, and growing up with James Bond and all that. So I I enlisted in the army and I chose uh counterterrorism, which uh three years doing that, went to Saigon with it, tried to myself and a bunch of people tried to find approximately plus or minus one or two weeks when Saigon was gonna fall after the 73 Paris peace talks. And we were within six days. We were six days off, but we were pretty close. Afterwards, um, I said, I'm never gonna sleep in the field again. I don't ever want to camp again, because I grew up camping with my dad. I'm just gonna be a computer scientist. And uh went to college for computer science. While I was in college, I worked summer internships at Lockheed Aircraft writing weaponry software, and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna be a software guy. Computers are new, you know, this is gonna be a great, great environment. Um, I'll make lots of money and I'll I'll be able to afford hotels and all these things. And well, I got recruited by the agency for counterterrorism and spent 36 years with them out in the field.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

No hotels.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

No hotels. So I had uh 72 deployments over 36 years. Uh spent a lot of time in Afghan, a lot of time down in South America, uh following the drug trade that was ousting governments with their own terrorists. And um I do it again. So I had thirty nine years of federal service.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

That's amazing. Well, thank you for that service. Thank you. I mean you're you and your whole family actually. Yeah, that's just um American dream.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Right. Well, uh you know, um we didn't grow up rich, we grew up, you know, just Lower middle class, you know, America. And my dad taught me the value of friendships, the value of a dollar, and and to serve.

SPEAKER_05 22:14

So how did you end up in Colorado Springs?

SPEAKER_01 22:16

My first assignment with the agency was here. I was working some different things in the Denver, College Springs, Pueblo area. And I was more training other agents, and we would use certain places to train. I was working with uh ATF and DEA. And so I came here. This was kind of like a home base, but then from here I was going other places. And we were close to one of the Intel sites up in the Denver area where they have those big, huge white golf balls. Yeah. Those are ray domes.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

And then from here, um, I went to Virginia, which was close to the mothership. Um, and then back here, but in between California, Colorado, Virginia, and Colorado, I lived in 14 countries.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Just a few experiences over here.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

And some of them uh not the best. Not the best, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

It was uh how often would you I mean, would you ever think about your dad in those instances?

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Honestly, um, you know, we had uh one of those love-hate relationships where I love my father, but he was definitely a disciplinarian. And there were days where, you know, I I told you, his hand from here to here would break the sound barrier, and he'd have to pry his hand off me. But you know what? Um I grew up with respect. Um, I grew up with making, before I did something stupid, go, one, what would my dad say?

SPEAKER_05 23:57

Yeah. How's this gonna look? Right, how's this gonna feel in 30 minutes?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Right. And also, am I gonna embarrass my family? Am I gonna embarrass myself? And is it the right thing to do? It's not like I've led a perfect life, believe me. W we've all, everybody, the president, everybody has done something, go, uh, why did I do that?

SPEAKER_04 24:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Um But he taught me the values of you know what it what it means to be a good citizen and make some make some choices, good or bad.

SPEAKER_05 24:29

Yeah, it's uh it's an important thing to have as kind of semi-lacking a little bit these days. Yes, yeah, and we talked talk just talked about that. Yeah, without getting into all of that. But so you ended up here, and then uh how did you come to know the museum?

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Well, um I know I know I know how you came to know so um I I've always loved planes. Yeah, and I've always loved just being around them. I grew up on a flight line. I grew up, you know, with my dad's mechanic, Maury. When when if I'd go to Los Alamitos or El Toro for the summer for a couple weeks here and there when I was out of school, Maury would put me in an A4D Skyhawk, he'd disable all the avionics, and I'd go, you know, that was my day. And um, so I've always loved planes. Yeah and when I found out that we had one here, first thing I did is I came over here and um I met Debbie, yeah, your mom and dad. And um I started talking to them, and they where do you guys live? They said, Oh, you know, over in Camelot. I said, Oh, so do I. Wearing Camelot. They said, like, this is my dress. I said, Oh, I literally live across the street from you guys. Because we're all on acres, so we don't get to see everybody all the time. And uh I've been coming here, you know, ever since. And I have brought more people here that never knew we had a museum, just like me. And even now, I'm still bringing people in. And uh, but that's how I found out about the museum was coming here meeting your parents, and then um just so now you're part of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:17

So was it about a year ago now that we were able to uh arrange to put you in the airplane that your dad flew?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

It's actually just I think October, August, maybe August. Yeah, so it's getting close to a year. Yeah, I guess it is it is, I know. It's flying.

SPEAKER_05 26:34

Wow, yeah, literally. So so explain, walk us through that a little bit. I mean, the emotional aspect and how that felt to actually be able to get yourself in the TBM and then go experience what your dad did for years.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Um it was such an incredible event. I um I kind of a side note, I have a life-ending illness from my deployments. And um because of my life-ending illness, I wanted to be able to donate to different organizations. And um because airplanes and this plane behind me and everything was you know so dear to my heart. Uh, meeting with your dad, um, he said, you know, I've always been saying, I've got all this stuff. And he finally said, you know what, we don't have a Marine Corps display. Let's build a display that um you know would honor your father. And um, and I've been bugging him, take me up in the B-25, take me up in the B-25. Because I see, you know, he always flies over the house. Yeah. And he finally says, No, we're gonna take you up in the TBM. That was your dad's plate. And um Ian took me up in the TBM when I got here. You know, I've been here when they fired it up. In fact, you guys years ago were working on the fuel pump. Um, I think this one or that one.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

And just being around and hearing it. And the day that I got to go up in it was so special. I just thought, you know, I'm literally crawling up on the wing. I'm even though I'm not getting into the cockpit, I'm getting into the rear, you know, the rear, you know, the rear seat. But my dad would have had his foot here, he would have had his foot here, he would have grabbed right here. Um and then with Ian in front, it was just like, you know, talking to Ian, it was like my father would have talked to the person behind him. And when we took off, um, it was just, even though it wasn't as bumpy as being on a, you know, on an island with the metal tracks or a dirt runway, I still can imagine my dad talking to whatever tower they had or whatever air, you know, air traffic control they had, talking to his his rear gunner, talking to the person on the bottom who's the stinger, you know, talking to the person behind him. And I I I just went into this, wow, this is, you know, as soon as he took off, you're in the air. And I can imagine him flying. And I could start to imagine what's going through his mind. What am I gonna come up against? You know, we're flying out and we're probably gonna fly 50, 100 miles, and we now have to fly straight into some type of boat. And at what point, you know, do you pull the torpedo? What point do you pull up? They're gonna be shooting at me. Am I coming home?

SPEAKER_05 29:55

Yeah, at what point is it too much? Right. And you gotta make that decision.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

There were a lot of TBM pilots lost every mission because they flew low and slow, low and slow into you know the broadside of a ship. Yeah. And they couldn't deviate left or right. They couldn't do this and drop because the torpedo would hook. So they literally had to fly um you know, deck level straight while everybody on the boat shooting at them. And it wasn't just my dad, it was every torpedo bomber flying out there. And I just kind of imagined what it would be like.

SPEAKER_05 30:36

So you didn't have to just imagine it, you actually got to take control of the stick back there. I did.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah, Ian said, Hey, uh, you want to take control? I said, sure. And I uh I took the stick and I said, I got the stick, and he went like this. And literally just if you look at the flight map, it's just circle, circle, circle, circle, out here, circle, circle. We went to Garden of the Gods, and all you see is this at Garden of the Gods. We went around probably eight or nine times, and uh and then Ian took the stick again.

SPEAKER_05 31:10

And then you realize why your dad had that ability to go from here to here?

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yes. Well, it's funny because you know, the TVM, it's got a heavy stick. Yeah, and so when I took it, I was like, okay, you know, I was I was single-handling it for a little bit, and then I was doing the double hand. And um it was funny because we came back, we landed, and one of the greatest things was I coach hockey in Monument, and the owner of the rink was here, and Ian goes, Hey, I've got room for a small kid. So Landon Sherman was able to get in the turret, yeah, and he flew backwards the whole time. He had a little spill right here.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

He did well done.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

Yeah, Nicole actually did a little bit of the cleanup. Like, I got it. Oh, good, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

He was embarrassed. I said, What are you embarrassed about? You just went up in a World War II bomber. I said, So what you throw up? Big deal.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

That's not what you're gonna remember, you know.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Big deal. Remember the flight.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Because we actually went through Kelly Air Park at rooftop level, about 200, you know.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

A missed approach. Yeah. Missed approach, FAA.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

But uh no, it was just uh it was just it it gave me a chance to think about what is he going through. But the greatest thing was a week later, I went up with uh you and your father in the B-25 when you were flying, and um we had the the P-38 and the P-47, almost an echelon, flying next to us for the uh the videotaping. We get on the ground and Ian goes, Hey, your dad flew the steerman, let's take that up. So we go up in the steerman, Ian goes, You want to take the stick? And I said, Sure. He goes, You got it. And the first thing I did was TBM. And the plane went like this. We and Ian, you know, calmly goes, you know, we got about 500 feet. I'd uh I'd maybe pull back a little bit and off to the left. Because this he was like this. And I got control, brought it back up, and he goes, uh, little loose stick, isn't it? I said, Oh yeah, I thought I thought it was gonna be the TVM. And uh we just literally went like this, and and I'm like, uh, Ian calmly, hey Mark, you know, we've got ground coming up. What do you think? Pull back a little bit? I said, sure.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

I like how you've done it in the reverse reverse reverse order from your father. You know starting the TVM, then you go to the steering steerman.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

So yeah, it was just uh but being in the plane and then seeing the display, it's just it's like being at home.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

I think one of my favorite moments of that day was, you know, I was working the ground, like Scott said, and watching you come out of the airplane and coming back down on the ground in your face, and probably the emotion that was going on in the air. It was it was incredible, very even meaningful to me.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

No, it was incredible. It was just uh what a great day. What a great day. That was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_05 34:09

Well, it was all yeah, I mean, it was all amazing. And we, you know, we here at the museum really appreciate the fact that you would, you know, you're looking for donations to give out to different organizations, and the fact that you would take that, you know, money and you know, can help us continue to honor the men and women that were in that war.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

And it's kind of funny. I, you know, I started off with $75,000. And then after talking to your dad, I went, no, we're gonna go for a hundred. And then when we had the uh the groundbreaking ceremony, um I said, I'm gonna make it 150. And after the groundbreaking ceremony, I walked up to your dad and I said, You got 200,000. And it's all in a trust, it's all legally laid out. The trust lawyer put it in the trust book and it's there uh as soon as I pass.

SPEAKER_05 35:01

And you just kept saying, What else do you want to fly in?

SPEAKER_01 35:04

I know you know, everybody goes, What else can we cram you in? Everybody goes, how lucky are you? And I go, well, you know, all you have to do is die and give $200,000. You get to go, you know. No. Honestly, even if I wasn't dying and you know, and and I had the money, I would be don't doing donations all the time here.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Well, you'd be here all the time too.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

I I would. I'd I'd actually be in Westpac with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:26

Yeah, and we'd still be flying you all the time. Yeah, I mean that yeah, that's something I'd like to actually touch on because you know, you're talking about coming over and working with us, and I mean you you've done some of your own restorations and on cars, and uh from what I hear, is they're pretty damn meticulous. So I don't know that we could have you anywhere because I I think it's just too too good.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

No. You know, it my dad was one of these guys that taught me if you can't do it right, don't do it. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. You know, don't overextend. And again, if you're gonna do something, do it right. And my, you know, even though I was a computer science background, I've always had this engineering kind of mentality. And the peel back the onion. Okay, so I did something. Is it something that, one, I would approve? Two, looking over my shoulder, would my dad approve it? You know, I've I've I I was always, I always, whenever I did something, I always taught, what would my dad say? And that's kind of stuck with me because he was, you know, math physics kind of guy. Um he was an immaculate pilot. I mean, he was one of these guys that, you know, based on some of his awards and just making rank and and flying. And um he taught me just again, if you're gonna do something, do it right. Sometimes I took a little bit overboard his heart. Like your dad goes, he's too anal. But you know, I just I don't know how to do it any other way.

SPEAKER_05 36:59

Well, you know, if you got the time and you got the ability, yeah, then why not do it to that extent?

SPEAKER_01 37:05

And actually, the greatest thing is um I've got a welding shop at my house with a welding setup table, I've got a wood shop, I've got the lifts, and a lot of that is all coming back here to the museum.

SPEAKER_05 37:19

Oh, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

And and the tools are immaculate.

SPEAKER_05 37:21

I mean, even though some of them my dad said he walked through it, it was like you didn't even look, they look like they were brand new. And I didn't even want to walk on the floor.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

And it's funny because I use the tools all the time. Yeah, but I wipe everything down, and I took, you know, the first thing I told your dad is, you know, this table I've probably welded a thousand projects on it. And he looks and he goes, I didn't even see any splatters. Because I take care of it, and all my tools I take care of. And that's my other gift back to the museum is you know, you get a lot of tools, but they're all donations, and some of them are just you know, they're beat up. And this way you'll all get uh a lot of really nice wood shop tools, some really great welding table that are jig setup type tables and welders, and yeah, well, and it's also part of you continuing through the museum, and I think that's very important. You know, when I when I walk in here, I feel like I'm walking through my house. It's just I feel at home. And and the greatest thing that um you know your dad has done for me, and you you guys, when I come in, I I don't feel like I'm in a museum. I feel like I'm in my garage. Yeah, you know, everybody knows me, the docents know me, the greatest guys in the world, all your docents. One of the first things I do here at the museum is I take them to the volunteer board where everybody has their little picture and their name tag, and I go, all of this, all these people are volunteers.

SPEAKER_05 38:53

Yeah, they all want to be here.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

And they go, Wow, all these people are volunteers. I said, Yeah. And it's because this museum opens their arms to people who want to be here.

SPEAKER_05 39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

And it's nobody's getting paid. I mean, the volunteers aren't getting paid.

SPEAKER_05 39:12

No, they're not.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

And the greatest thing about that is they're spending you know hundreds of hours a year here.

SPEAKER_05 39:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Whatever hours at the minimum they have to. Plus, a lot of them just come here because they want to be here.

SPEAKER_05 39:28

Well, you know, and a lot of them have been here for a long time. And they've built this place. Right. You know, I mean, all the displays, everything you see is all volunteer built. I mean, to to cleaning up the weeds outside to maintaining aircraft, I mean, it's all it's all the same. Yeah. And everybody's on the same plane field. Right. And it and it's a thing where everybody wants to be here, so it's just a great place to be. I mean, everybody, they're pleasant, they're nice, all nice to talk to. And as we're finding out doing these, you know, podcasts and sitting down with different you know, people, they all have amazing stories, you know.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:02

And they're just looking for an outlet to you. Some of them don't want necessarily want to talk about it, but then they sit down and then they're happy they did, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

But it's just an amazing place. There's a combination of people here. There's um a lot of the docents and volunteers have served. Some people haven't. But they've been involved in organizations that have helped and done things like this. So it's a it's a great combination of um people have served, people who haven't. But the number one love and the number one piece there that keeps the non people who haven't served and the people who have served is the airplanes, the museum. And and having a national moniker now being recognized in a national registry for museums. Yeah. How great is that? Yeah, it's huge. I mean, it's it's massive.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

So built on the shoulders of the volunteers, and it's definitely growing and expanding. And thanks to people like you too, who put in that love and dedication.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

You know, this isn't about me. This is I've just I was just fortunate to be able to donate and fortunate to have these things in my possession. Um this is about my father, and this is about uh people coming in to see more exhibits in the museum.

SPEAKER_05 41:24

Well, but it is kind of about it's not just about your father, it's about you as well, you know, and we're gonna be here to to honor all of that, you know, you know, in per perpetuity. So you know that's that's our goal, and that's what we're here for. And it's like you said, the airplanes are nice and they're cool, but that's not really what it's all about. It's really about all these different displays with different stories and you know, and keeping that alive.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

So I mean, every airplane here tells a story, but the pictures of the people in all these different displays, they're the ones, that's the heart of the story. The the airplane um is just a tool. It's like, you know, I like Nicole, she's an ex-hockey player, and I I I'm gonna actually leave here and go coach hockey. And I tell everybody, the puck, it's just a utensil. It's not the game.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

That helmet that somebody actually had on their head, uh the pictures of them, the the people flying these airplanes, that's the game. Yeah. The plane, it's a utensil.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

There's something about when you actually fire them up and fly them where you can almost feel that connection to those people, and that's what makes it special to me. You know, they represent so much. Right. Keeping that alive, I think, is a way to serve.

SPEAKER_05 42:47

Well, Mark, this has been fantastic. I think they were gonna keep it off on that note. Thank you. And you know, I really uh do appreciate you doing this, and I and you know, I really wish that we would have been able to meet a lot sooner. Well, you know what? It's been the the time that we've been able to hang out and talk and so is always been wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

So it doesn't matter if you have a second or a lifetime. Yeah. So sorry, I'm gonna but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:13

Well, I I really do appreciate you. Thank you. And we and the museum appreciates you, of course. Thank you. I mean, we just you know love having you come out. Anytime you want to pop out here and keep visiting each day. I love when I see you walking in the hangar.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Well, and and the funny thing is the connections, like yesterday, the flight surgeon, he knew one of your docents that passed.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

And then Dale Meyerose, who was a president, um uh president-appointed, uh, Senate confirmed uh director of national intelligence. He's friends with General Radege. General Ratage was friends with Phil Heathcote. And it just, and then Paul Mogah, the new superintendent of the academy, I coached in hockey. I coached his kids in hockey, he's an F-22. Pilot, he knows Dale Meyer Rose. It's just this connection of everybody here. So it's just uh I again I walk in here and I feel like I'm at home. You are. Thank you very much, Mark. Thank you guys. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Scott. Thanks, Nicole. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 44:22

Well, that was pretty amazing. I mean, I I know that just the idea of sitting down with Mark, you know, we've been trying to get him on here for a while, which thank you for that, by the way. You did all the coordination on that, you know, getting him here. And I mean, with his health issues and everything, and and then obviously his hockey schedule. I mean, that's actually more important than anything.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

He needs to be doing that.

SPEAKER_05 44:41

Yeah, and and so, you know, the fact that we could finally sit down with him and and get his dad's story and and you know, the connection to the museum and everything.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Yeah, Mark's one of those guys. I mean, you know, like we mentioned, haven't really known him that long, unfortunately. But in the short time that I have known him, I mean, he's kind of one of the reasons why I took the jump that I did. Oh, really? You know, he really gave me that kind of insight motivation, you know, go for your passion. Like he's just a really inspirational, really amazing person, and I just it was really important to get him on here, you know, and share that.

SPEAKER_05 45:14

Yeah, that's a very good word. Important. Yeah. I mean, he's just it's just a phenomenal guy. Like I said, I I really wish it's sad because he's lived across the street from my dad for I don't know how many years now.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Yeah, I had no idea that you know that for so long.

SPEAKER_05 45:27

Yeah, I didn't we didn't know that, you know, and you just never know who's who's around you that you don't even you hasn't touched your life yet.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:35

And so to have him come in and yeah, and the money's great and and the displays are cool and the story, but I mean he's just a phenomenal guy.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Just having him here.

SPEAKER_05 45:44

He's just a really, really good guy. And it's just every time he comes in, you know, everybody kind of stops and just it it just kind of lights everything up and makes you feel good. Yeah. And you know, and it's it he does have a terminal illness, which is very sad. I mean, it makes it makes everybody here very heartbroken to know that he's not gonna be around much longer. But um the fact that we can get as much as we can from him and the time that we got is is a blessing.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

He has a very, yeah, again, important perspective to share, and I definitely want other people to to experience that.

SPEAKER_05 46:16

Yeah, you know, and I know that we didn't really get into his career too much, but I don't know how much of that we could actually talk about. But I really wish we could have, you know, just kind of get into that. Hey, hey, American government, let him talk.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

That's not gonna happen, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 46:30

Yeah, no, we got a lot of that around here, but you know, and Rob probably really missed this because I think they probably would have traveled in some of the same circles, I think.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

Yeah, Rob would have loved to speak to Mark.

SPEAKER_05 46:40

So um, we miss you, big guy. Yeah, we'll see you. I'll see you in a week. So, well, anyway, uh, you know, I really appreciate you sitting down and and and doing this and bringing your perspective and your knowledge of Mark's past because I know that you've done a lot of sit-downs with him and had dinners and really got to spend some time with the man.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

I just wanted to enable his voice getting out there. That was the important thing to me.

SPEAKER_05 47:02

Well, we're very happy that we can give him the platform to do that, and hopefully uh everybody out there really enjoyed this. So, on that note, um we got our June fly days coming up, and I know that previously I sold it as the Helldiver would be flying, but that has been changed. So instead of the Helldiver, you're gonna get probably what I think is the sexiest airplane ever built, the F7F Tiger Cat. So on June 20th, you're gonna want to come out and see the Tiger Cat fly. I mean, it is it is a phenomenal airplane. To me, it's it's the epitome of a piston-driven, propeller-driven airplane. I mean, it just has the look, it's big, it sounds like it it looks, you know, like I mean, all I have to say is like 4,200 horsepower. Oh man, and open headers. I mean, you know, like you look at the thunderbolt and it looks it's a badass airplane, right? But it's quiet because of the turbo, so it goes by and it's like not the tiger cat. No, that is not what we're gonna get with the tiger cat on June 20th. So please come on out and see that. Uh Charlie Hainline will be out here. Tuna.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Tuna's gonna be flying.

SPEAKER_05 48:08

We'll be flying it. So one of one of Nicole's favorite people. Um, another big event coming up. Uh, I really, really recommend it is the 4th of July, the 250th anniversary of our country, and we will be celebrating it out here uh in style at the museum. So we'll have food trucks, we'll have a bunch of airplanes out on the ramp, ability for you to get up and check out the cockpits. Um, we do plan on flying B-25 and two TBMs. So there's gonna be flying, there's gonna be music, we're gonna have uh our friends from Peak to Plains that will be out doing weather updates for everybody, and it's gonna be a phenomenal, phenomenal deal. It's always one of our biggest events every year is the 4th of July.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

Yeah, super fun way to spend the day.

SPEAKER_05 49:00

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean it it's just it's just phenomenal. So come on out.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

You come sit in the cockpits too? Yeah, we get people in the airplanes, sitting in the airplanes.

SPEAKER_05 49:09

Um, some of them, yeah. We don't normally sit everybody, sometimes we just get them and let them look in the air. But there's a couple there's a couple airplanes they let sit. The ones that, you know, if they beat them up, we're not too worried about, I guess. So I guess on that note, I'd like to really uh say my appreciation for Mark Cooper for sitting down with us today. I mean, it was a phenomenal talk, and and really wish him the best. Um, I'd like to thank William Stevenson behind the glass, my guest co host Nicole Bertola. We'll see you soon, Rob Gale, and myself, Scott Clares. Stay safe out there.