Inside the Doolittle Raid; A real B-25 co-pilot explores the Dick Cole story: Winged Victory Ep 43

Rob and Scott sit down and discuss the Doolittle Raid from the perspective of Dick Coles book, "Dick Cole's War" by Dennis R. Okerstrom as well as his time in the CBI flying "The Hump".  Also Scott goes on a bit of a rant about some peoples expectations when it comes to airshows as well as what to expect when you attend one.  They also touch on Rob's upcoming presentation on July 18th about the women flying the Hot Ships followed by the flying of the B-25 by Bill and Scott Klaers.

#warbirds #museum #flying  #podcast  #planes  #history #aviation  #family #nationalmuseumofwwiiaviation #b25 #doolittle #dickcole

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The Museums next flyday will be on July 18th and the presentation will be about the WAAF's and the WASP's presented by our very own ROB GALE!  We are scheduled to fly the B-25, with Scott in the right seat!  It will be a fun one!  This will be a great one for all the women out there!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Hello everyone, and welcome to Winged Victory with Rob and Scott, a podcast by the National Museum of World War II Aviation here in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Welcome to another episode. I'm Scott Clares, and I'm here again, once again, with my partner in crime, Mr. Rob Gale.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Speaking of.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Yeah. So today it's just going to be the two of us. We don't have a guest, but my partner here, Rob, he actually kind of threw a little gauntlet out for me and decided to give me a little bit of homework.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Well, and we do have a guest.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

We have Dick Cole.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Dick Cole, Mr. Dick Cole's warrant. He gave me a little bit of homework, decided that tell me to actually read a book.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

So I wanted you to prove you were actually literate.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Yeah, and I actually can read a book, but I only, as you can see, got about halfway through it. So far.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Yeah, you got the you got the good stuff. Um well it actually's all amazing. Spoiler alert, they were the ones who, when they were invading Burma, they pioneered the system to have a Goonie bird fly over and snatch a glider off the ground.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Oh, really? Yeah, see, I haven't gotten to that part yet. Uh spoiler alert, but it's I'm working through the CBI right now, and he's flying the hump, but you know, I haven't got to that point yet.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

So yeah, it there's just so much cool stuff, you know. That's the first book I bought at this museum.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yeah, I've bought a few books. Um this one actually I'm very fortunate. Um, you know, Mr. Dick Cole was here on a couple of different occasions. Um and he was actually here, I think about three months before he passed away. And he he presented the museum with so every year, I guess, at the reunions they had a lithograph, and then they would all whoever attended that reunion would sign the lithograph. So he brought us one of the original lithographs, and it actually is the one with the most signatures on it.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

That's that's the one right in the entrance. Yeah, that oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

It's right by the SBD display over the side.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I was just looking at that this morning.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

And then it I was even more fortunate because we did a presentation and had a bunch of press out and everything else, and and he actually presented it to me to give, you know, giving it to the museum. And I thought that was kind of appropriate seeing as I co-pilot B-25, and he was Doolittle's co-pilot.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Well, and I had the thought, see, I had thought he was younger when he flew the raid, but he was 26 to Doolittle's old men. To Doolittle's 47. Yeah. And I think that's about the interview interval between you and your left seater.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Yeah, actually, yeah, about 20 years. Or actu actually right at 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Yeah. So quite an interval.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

I'm older than Doolittle was then. So that's all right. It makes the pilot of this airplane a lot older than than that. But uh, that's quite the book. I mean, you know, to the impressions that I got, I mean, just opening up and reading the ep, you know, the epilogue and the the preface, uh preface. I mean, the emotions that I got from that you know, it really just stirred some stuff. But it was kind of different for me in the fact that I was kind of really sad because I I've been around these guys growing up, and I didn't know his story. I wish I had known more of his story before he actually I got to meet the man, and and you know, have so I'd actually have something that you know, other than just being like, oh my god, that's Dick Cole, you know, doolittle's co-pilot. There was so much more.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

So much more. Um but even if you'd known the story, he was such a self-effacing guy uh from all accounts. I was just doing my job.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Yeah, I don't know how much of a story you'd really get out of him.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Well, and in CBI he flew with people, dozens of people, and they didn't even know he'd been on the raid. Yeah. Because he wouldn't say anything. Yeah. I mean, that's that's what so many of these guys were so modest. I was just doing my job, just flying an off an off an aircraft carrier in plane number one.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

Well, and that's what it was. You know, I mean, it wasn't like they knew what they were volunteering for. They didn't even know what they were volunteering for. They just knew that, hey, I wanted it, you know, we're we're flying airplanes. I think in his case, you know, he just wanted more time.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

He wanted to fly airplanes. He wanted to, you know, whatever was going to get him the ability to fly an airplane, he was gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Well, and that's how he wound up in the hump, you know. He wasn't getting enough B-25 time, and they desperately needed to be.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Well, yeah, they were talking about the CBI. They didn't have enough airplanes. I mean, when they the CBI was the the the Oh, the bastard stepchild. Yes. I mean, they didn't want anything to do with like really getting any anything over there to help that. That was like third or fourth on the list of priorities, and so you know, they were they didn't have anything. They what they say at one point they had four airplanes and 30 pilots.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, total shoestring and the end of a very long, long, long supply line.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

Oh, yeah. They I mean for them there they were insane, like half the airplanes they got there were wore out by the time they got them because well, because they had to fly halfway across the world, nope, more than halfway to get there. Yeah, so I mean just the logistics of it, and you know, so the fact that you know he just wanted to fly, and the fact that they didn't they didn't even know what they were volunteering for. So it wasn't like you had a bunch of guys that were like, Oh, that's gonna be a I'm gonna volunteer for that raid because that's gonna make me famous. You know, and that wasn't what it was. It was just, hey, we wanted to do our job, um, we've been training for this for a long time. You know, we want to get out there and get our time, and and so that that that just tells you the makeup of the of the guys that were doing this, you know, that they didn't have a clue.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

No, that I mean I think Doolittle's whole speech or whatever was, hey, I got a job, you'll be out of the country for a while, who wants to go?

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

And in Dick's case, he was he wound up being out of the country for over a year.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Well, yeah, and but I mean I think even before that they were volunteering for this thing before they even knew Doolittle was even a part of it. You know, he didn't know that his his boyhood idol or somebody that he watched you know flying airplanes in and out of of Ohio, you know, he was famous.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

And well, when in winning air races, I mean, yeah, he was second only to to Lindbergh, I think, as a as a aviator idol. Um but and he certainly didn't know he was gonna fly with Doolittle, it was only that his pilot got sick.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

Yeah, that was the only reason he actually flew with them.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yeah, well, and and that I Doolittle, I think, wanted to go anyway.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

He was probably looking for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Well, and he had he had to go up to DC and he he kind of horn swoggled Arnold.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Yeah, the story's pretty interesting in that. You know, he kind of got him just he like you know, he just pushed him and pushed him, pushed him until he finally was like, well, if you get somebody else's approval, I'll let it happen.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

And then he scrambles down the hall to this guy before the phone call could come across.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

It was faster than the phone call could be made. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

So hap, I already told him he could go.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Well, okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

Yeah, it's too late now.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yeah. And uh so that that is the the legendary side, but as you're seeing in Flying the Hump, that's dangerous. I mean, several of the uh of the raiders lost their lives in China after the after the raid.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

Well, three of them lost their lives on the first ferry flight over or something. They were they said that they were doing uh moving some of the airplanes across, and they had a guy that was new to the area who was in command. Yeah. And everybody was telling them, Don't, yeah, this is not good, don't go. And he, oh, I'm going, and we're going.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

And yeah, you three guys are going with us.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

With the brand new B-25s, and I think only two of the six actually made it to where they were supposed to be going.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah. And I I forget the the stats exactly, but a lot a lot of guys died flying that route, and I think the author does a really good job of explaining how horrific the conditions are. I mean, you could have a 100-not crosswind setting you into the Himalayas and and not know it.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Yeah, I mean, just reading the description made me just it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Like, what are you thinking? I and they had to do it.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

You know, I mean, they had to supply Kunming and get all the supplies across. But I mean, you're just talking, I mean, the most treacherous. I mean, the way he described it, it was it's the worst place in the world to fly. I mean, you got 26,000 foot peaks.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

You know, the the it seemed like the the sky was never clear unless it was after September. I think between September and and December was probably the best, it was the only time that was halfway to the floor.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

About as good as it got. Then, of course, you know, the uh the living conditions would absolutely horrify any proper Air Force guy. You know, you're living in a thatched hut and slogging through the mud, and you know, and and the end of the supply line for everything food, spare parts, yeah, um, just that that was a heroic effort, but it it kept the Chinese in the war and tied down hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops that otherwise could have gone against our guys or other guys uh elsewhere in the theater. Um but uh I think it's so cool that you got to meet him. Uh I was talking to one of the docents who said, Well, yeah, I saw him, but you know, there was a whole crowd of people around him, and I just well, there he is.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

Yeah, and honestly, like, because I found out that day that he was coming out. I mean, it was a really patched together type thing, and um it kept growing and growing. Like next thing I knew, we had news people here, and and then I found out that I was gonna be the one that was gonna have to speak or whatever, and I don't have that public speaking gene, and it's getting a little bit better and better with this thing that we're doing here. It's it's but back then, so it I to me I was almost I I don't even remember the guy's face to be honest, because I was so like overtaken, but so no, I mean it was just it's just a privilege. I mean, but it it really made me God you you gotta go back and think about all the missed opportunities um just because they didn't know you know exactly what I mean everybody knows to do little raid, everybody knows the gist of it. Well, 16 B-25s off an aircraft carrier and we bombed Tokyo four months after Pearl Harbor.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Everybody should know that, but uh on the N3N when I have the kids do an outside loop and it's great because our screen goes red. Yeah, well that's yeah, that's blood rushing to your eyes.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

And and then I I ask him, I said, Do you know who did the first one? Who did the first one successfully? And nobody knows that. Then well, no. And and as soon as I say Jimmy Doolittle, about half of them go, Oh, and the other half I say, you can't leave this museum until you find out who this guy was. Yeah. So it's not gonna be hard.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

So another good book, too, that I've read, um, didn't actually finish it either, but I need to finish it, The Aviators. Have you read that book? Yes. That's another excellent book. It talks about Eddie Rickenbacher, and it's got Jimmy.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Lindbergh and Dulilberg, and it talks about their their whole stories, you know, from kid to Yeah, that's a that's a great insight into three of the of the key aviator, key American aviators of the 20th century. And uh I became even more impressed with Rickenbacker from that uh from that book.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

I didn't realize he was a professional race car driver, so that like hits all for me, you know. I mean the guy was like he was he was a top dog back then, which was something because you you didn't have a very long lifespan. I mean he everything that that guy did was would be considered a very extreme today.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Well, and and I think he was fifty-two years old when he spent three weeks on a life raft in the middle of the Pacific.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

And charmed charmed life, I think.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

So I want to ask you, because you you dealt with a lot of planning in your career for missions and stuff like that. So what would go into I mean, how does a how does you how do you go from getting a call from the president of the United States saying, hey, I want to bomb Tokyo?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

And you need to figure out how we're gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Well, and and what it first took, it uh it was at the inspiration of a submarine officer, uh, Captain Lowe, he was flying out of Norfolk and he looked down and he saw the Hornet, pretty sure it was the Hornet, and then some other uh activity on uh the runway, probably at Oceania or somewhere, and that was the idea of I think here's how we can do it. So, first of all, he had and uh this book has the names of the two pilots that actually took B-25s down and flew them off the Hornet. They weren't part of the raid or anything else, it's just proof of concept, and proof of concept is a big deal, but um one of the best ways to plan, and I I learned this on the job, I never got sent to staff college or anything like that. Okay, this is the objective, this is what we want. Now you start planning backwards. Um, you know, what's the situation? Okay, the Japanese own the Pacific, what's the mission? Bomb the Japanese homeland, and then you get into execution, and so you you start planning backwards. If we want to be here by this time, it's gonna take us this long, and then you start getting into logistics, which is the the reign of the professionals. There's an old saw that says amateurs study strategy and tactics, professionals study logistics. Because it is how much gasoline does this airplane need? And okay, and then if it's got that much fuel, what's the bomb load? Um and that's when they started stripping things off these airplanes. You know, they took the bottom turret off, they put uh there was a bladder on top of the bomb bay, yeah, and and then all these other fuel tanks besides, and then you have to figure out, okay, well, let's see. Gee, we have, oh, I don't know, three aircraft carriers in the Pacific, and we're gonna send two of them initially 400 miles off the Japanese coast. Yeah, and they've got four cruisers to escort them and some destroyers and a couple of oilers. Because the oilers, again, are gonna be crucial because you're gonna have to refuel at least halfway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:32

And itself is is a crazy endeavor.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Well, according to the book, like you know, 30-foot swells and yeah, and and having done it with the the method that works now, uh in World War II, they were sending just you sent a fuel hose over and you had a hole in the top of the fuel tank. And you just threw the end of the hose in there and hope that it doesn't come out. And uh it's it's crazy. It's one of the things our Navy has done, has pioneered and done very, very well is refueling at sea. And I mean, back in my day, back in my day, uh, we did it every three days. Rain, shine, day, night. Um and so just being able to do that was something. And then you've got the only group of people who are flying this airplane. Because the only other alternative was the only alternative was the B-23, a tail dragger.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

I thought they were talking about the B-26. They thought about the B-26 initially too short, and they it had to take too long to take off roll.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, yeah. Wait, I mean, there's no way you were gonna get a B-26 off in that.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

I wouldn't think you'd have a B-23 sitting on the carrier deck, or you'd have maybe eight of them instead of 16.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, because again, the the tail drag is gonna take up more room.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

It's the size of a B-17.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Well, it's I I don't know. I always cons consider it kind of like a DC three, C47.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Yeah, it's the same size as that. But I mean the wingspan and everything, it's yeah, it's like right. So it wasn't very prepared.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

We had we had the ideal airplane, yeah, brand new in service, again, one group, four squadrons of guys, and everybody volunteered. Yeah. And then once they had all of what three weeks of training?

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Uh that was a little bit longer, but I don't I don't remember the exact timeline. Not a whole lot. So they had another competing idea as well, which was gonna take they're gonna take B-17s and fly them to China, and then fly them from China and and hit them.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

And then so how do you end up with 16 B-25s on a carrier instead of just for the expediency of it?

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Well, sure, because remember when we were talking about the hump, you know, those airplanes were worn out by the time they got to China.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Yeah. And well, they ended up showing up there, but it was like about a week or two after the raid was done.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

That group showed up.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

And this first of all, the Japanese would have been expecting something like that.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

Yeah, coming from the land.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

And totally unprecedented.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Um yeah, it's something that had never been done before.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

So No. Well, and uh I think we were when we were talking about gliders with uh with Mark, um the criteria for a special operation um as As outlined by a guy I actually used to work for, is you know, new technology, rehearsals, stuff like that. But the thing that astounds me, and they did have a cover story, because that's also part of operational planning, is well, why is this group of people over here? We need some kind of a plausible cover story. But they sailed the Hornet under the Golden Gate with 16 bombs. I know. Sitting there in broad daylight.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Well, I mean, at the time, I mean, it probably wasn't too uncommon because they would ship planes on carrier. I mean, it it wouldn't have been an attack carrier like that. It would have been a you know a freighter carrier or something.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Well, but except we didn't have them then.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

No, you didn't have them then. But you can say that.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Hey, we're just Well, and that's what they did. They said, Oh, we're, you know, we're ferrying airplanes to Hawaii. Well, and part of it was And then hit Japan. Part of it was the World War II generation understood that we're fighting for our lives, for civilization, you know, loose lips sink ships. You you should be quiet. But to to do that, and of course, not everybody, you know, they actually, I think, planned for 15 airplanes, and Dick Joyce was gonna fly one off hundred miles, they were gonna fly it off just to show the guys that they could do it.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

And then they decided, nah, we'll just hold on to that air airplane.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Extra airplane.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Yeah, it was all different because I mean the plan was different than what it ended up being. Because I mean, Doolittle was gonna take off an hour before everybody he was gonna go set fires, and that was gonna kind of be their homing beacon, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Well, because they were they were supposed to take off at dusk.

SPEAKER_03 23:52

Yeah. From 400 miles. From 400 miles. Not 620 miles.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Oh, well, um and you know, when they when they found out they were discovered, you know, Halsey comes over and says, What's it gonna be? Uh you want to go about now or should we shove your airplanes over the side? And so that they'd they'd taken the 16 airplanes, but they took all the crews onto the s onto the ship. I think there were 22 or 23 trained. No, because that again exposes you to an operational security leak. Yeah. But um but I'm sure there were guys who, hey, I'll take your place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Oh yeah, no, I mean there was definitely they were saying that they kept waiting, you know, hey, you are you sure you want to go? Because I'd like to get on that.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah, and and Doolittle kept saying to the guys you could still back out at any point. No, no harm, no foul.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Uh you know, and that's what really to me makes it remarkable is because it it was their choice. You know, I mean, and that's not something you normally get in the military.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

You know, usually you're told, hey, this is where you're going, this is what you're doing, and they didn't they had that. They had their the total choice to do that, and they all chose to do it.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Well, and having worked in both the no-choice and the all-volunteer military, and then off into soft, where everybody's a volunteer, uh, it's it's a different kind of atmosphere.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

I mean, you know, I I enlisted to dodge the draft, and I was with people who had been drafted, and they were really unhappy. Yeah. And they made no bones about their make a lot of correlations to the museum, you know.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

It's a volunteer-run museum. Everybody here is a volunteer, and it really makes the atmosphere a much different place than it would be if we a bunch of paid of them, you know, disgruntled employees.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Yeah, yeah. Uh or even gruntled employees. I don't know. But um, but yeah, this I mean, that's one of the elements that makes this place so special is everybody wants to be here. And what at the meeting we were at uh this morning, we've we've had an increase in volunteers. There are still lots of opportunities to uh to be a part of this place. And I I feel fortunate that I found it, uh although you talk about wasted time. I'd I'd heard heard about it, but it took me years to finally just hey, I gotta go find that place.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

And I still run into people in town, lived here 20 years. Where is it?

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Yeah, no, we get it all the time, for sure. I mean trying to get the exposure out there. Well, and it's been international level or national level versus you know local level. Yeah. But I think we're trying to kind of shift that a little bit and kind of get a little more local support. But anyway, I mean, yeah, it's just the whole thing was, you know, the doolittle race just I mean, it is legendary for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Oh yeah. And uh and again, uh uh using uh McGraven's criteria, it it met all of the criteria for a special operation. And never repeated. No. I mean, I found uh where late in the war they were experimenting with B-25s or actually PBJs on carriers. I actually have a photo of a PBJ H model on a carrier, and the thing's got a tail hook.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

It's got a hook on it. Really? Yeah. I'd never heard of that.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Yeah, and and it's it's very obscure.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

Well, I mean, it's a great airplane. You know, they picked the right airplane. I mean, well, they didn't have a lot of choice of stuff to pick from in 1942.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

No, but they somehow North American built the ideal airplane. Um, you know, and in the research I've been doing with the WAFs and the WASP, everybody who flew that airplane loved it.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Yeah, it's a really great airplane. I mean, it's uh like I said, I kind of liken it to a slow fighter. I mean, you you do have to kind of wrestle it around if you're trying to make some you know maneuvers. You know, when you're doing the air show and you're coming around and you're going out to your ass and you bank, and then you gotta come back in and bank, and then get you know, it it you gotta move it. But I mean it it'll do it, you know, it'll it'll move for you. And I mean it's got the range that they needed, it was just ideal. Yeah, and it's a comfortable airplane to fly. Oh and if you it's got great single engine characteristics. I mean, it's just that's a that's a they did a really good job on this airplane.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

So well and North American built great airplanes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

They did. They're pretty simple. I mean, we're building the Mustang wing right now, and I mean it's just pretty straightforward, you know, and it's there's no surprises where you you get to a certain point and you go, uh oh, I didn't do that in the right direction. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty easy to you know, all their stuff's easy.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Well, and they just they kept cranking them out, kept improving them every time. Um and we have really the penultimate J model here. That's just that's as good as they got, and it was mighty good. Yeah. And I I am thrilled for you and not a little bit envious that that you can talk about flying this airplane.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Yeah, it's uh it's a privilege, for sure. I mean, fly it kind of, you know, like Dick Cole flew it. You know, you're kinda on the right seat, and every once in a while the the pilot throws it to you because he gets a little tired or wants to take a break or something, but you know, it's it's it's the same experience. It's funny because when I'm reading the book, yeah, and he's I'm like I could relate to everything that he's going through on that.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Because he talks about some pilots, it's like you sit there. Yeah. And others, it's like, I'm I'm gonna bring you along and teach you.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Every pilot's got their thing, yeah. You know, and and I had the fortunate ability to fly with Tony Ritzman. So um in California, we went back to for Chino Air Show in the Pacific Princess. You know, he wanted to take his family up for a flight after the show. So he asked my dad, hey, go come fly with me, and he's like, Ah, take Scott, you know. So I got to go fly with him, and it was it was a whole different regimen, you know. I mean, different expectations, different, different, hey, why aren't you doing this? Uh, because I don't normally do that, you know, or why are you doing that? Because I normally do that, you know, kind of thing. So uh you got to learn each each pilot, and I'm sure that was quite something for those guys because you know, he was jumping in and out of different crews throughout his entire training, really.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Well, and speaking of air shows though, uh, this morning we got the lineup.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

Uh, I don't think we can we can give it out, but we're yeah, the lineup set it's set, it's set in stone, I believe, unless we have something crazy happen. Um, we definitely got the FA 18s set up. Yeah. Uh Rhino demo team, they're gonna be coming out. Um, they're on hold right now because of the incident with the EA18s, but they are very confident that we're gonna be moving forward and they're gonna be able to fly.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Yeah, they'll they'll lift the stand down in time, I hope.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Yeah, no, and I mean, I think you know, we still have a few months, so I think it's not gonna be a problem. But uh, yeah, actually, I wanted to have a little rant on the air show thing if I could. This is where we have the disclaimer that you know the the opinions expressed within are are of ours and not of the industry around us. But you know, you see a lot of chatter online with air shows, and and most of it's positive. But every you know, every year you got to deal with the people that are like, oh my gosh, it's so expensive to go to an air show. You know, it's so expensive. And oh, they raise their prices ten dollars or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Well, which isn't the museum's doing, per se.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Well, no, but I mean it's it's the air show. Well, the people don't even know that really the museum is a big part of you know, the beneficiary of our air particular airshow. You know, the a lot of the money comes to the museum, it also goes to the Fort Carson Museum, it also goes to Peterson Air Force Base or Space Force Base, excuse me, museum. Um, so it benefits a lot of the museums. But you know, I mean, just the logistics of putting on an air show is phenomenal. People don't understand what goes into putting on an event that we we do once every two years. Yeah, we don't we're not like an Oshkosh or somebody that does it every year. And to to be able to put on an air show is I'm telling you, the amount of people that are involved, the amount of you gotta get, you know, you got Peterson, you got Fort Carson, you got you got to get involved. The airport, the airport, the city, the fire department, the police department, your local FBO who's gonna be providing fuel, which for us is jet center. Um you got to deal with the airlines because we are at a terminal airport. Yeah. So you got to be able to schedule at the airlines when you can close down the air airport. Um well and we were just cost is just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

We were just talking on the way over here, though. We've both bought concert tickets recently. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

And you know, yeah, it's it's it, you know, I have no problem plopping down $250 for two of us to go to a concert.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Well, and concerts, sure, there's there's infrastructure and and overhead, but concerts aren't buying hundreds of gallons of aviation fuel.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

No, they come into a set venue that's set up for air for for hard. For the show. Or if you go to a football game, you're at a stadium, that's what they're there for, and they have eight of those per year if you don't make the playoffs. Yeah. You know, we do this once every two years. We got to go set up a mini city three days before the air show, and then tear it down the day after.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Um, you got vendors, you got you're dealing with insurance, you're dealing with getting statics in, and you know, just to for the performers, you know. I mean, you want to get the private performers in. Well, they're money.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

You know, they have a performance.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

They have expenses.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

They got to get a hotel room. We we gotta get them hotel rooms for three, four, not five nights. Rental cars. Rental cars, food. Um, yeah, the military acts are free. You don't have to pay for the military acts, but guess what?

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Well, we've already paid, we've already paid for the military acts.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

You're still paying for their hotels, you're still paying for their rental car, and they come with a lot of people, you know. Sure. And like the last air show, the EA18s, we had them here, and they had a malfunction, and they had to stay the next or three days waiting for the park to show up.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Which required security.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

Security, it required hotel rooms, it required keeping the you know, cars, and you're talking about for 20 people, and then you talk about a major act like the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds, yeah, and you're talking 50 cars and 50 hotel rooms, and it it is a phenomenal expense to put on an air show. The fact that any air anybody out in this country can put on an air show for people's entertainment is phenomenal. Well, so when you gotta pay that $38 or or $40 or whatever it is to get in, you know, I think a lot of people go to the to the say an Air Force air show and they're free. Yeah. And that's because when it's at a base, it it has to be free because it's being put on by well, it's not free because well, again, we've we've already paid for it. But but I just kind of don't want to throw it out there. I mean, you know, it just you know, people really need to put it in perspective that you know this is a phenomenal undertaking.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

I bought eight preferred front row seats. Yeah. And that's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. That's that's well, thank you for your patronage.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

We appreciate that, Rob.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Well, it's that's only one day. I'll I'll be working the rest of those days.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Yeah, yeah, we'll get you out there and working. Um, so yeah, I mean, just you know, just have that in mind when you come out to any air show, you know, that and most of the people that are out there that are working, they're doing it on their own dime, their own time. Yep. You know, we're all out there, you know, volunteering and trying to make a show that's that's fun and successful and safe. And you know, we're really pride about putting on a good show and really excited about this year. Like I said, we got some people coming in from out of state that we haven't had before. Yep. Um, new airplanes, new World War II airplanes, uh, new demos that haven't been seen out here. So we're very, very excited about it. And we're getting close, you know. It's it as this airs, it'll be in July. So we're a couple months away, September 19th and 20th. PPR airshow.org for tickets.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Yep. Um which are still available for the general admissions, certainly.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we won't sell out probably for maybe the month beforehand, but but we'll probably will sell out. Yeah, the VIPs, yeah. No, we expect to be sold out. We definitely expect to be sold out.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Yeah, the VIPs are gone. Gone.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Uh the preferreds probably proceedings, probably there'll be still be some of that available, but yeah. Um I wouldn't wait. If you're interested and you want to see some amazing airplanes and jump on those tickets, um they and they will be, I think they go up in price as we get closer to the event as well. Okay, that's just economics.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

A couple bucks, then get on there and just make your choice and and get with it. Yeah. And uh September will be cooler. The last one was in August, and it was uh it was a bit. Yeah, that's another thing.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

When you go to an air show, read what is allowed to be brought in. Because we do allow you to bring your own water source. You know, people complain that we don't have enough water available. We're out on a tarmac that is not designed for air shows. You know, it's not a venue that we have all the the we have to bring everything with us.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Well, and and you should bring uh cover for the sun.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

Yeah, you can't believe how many people we saw come in in August, like the hottest weekend of the year, wearing nothing but a tank top and flip-flops and shorts and nothing else. You know, didn't bring a water bottle, didn't bring anything.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Well, and and uh there was a lot of f water provided to people.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

It's a lot of water provided to people, but that that goes fat. Like I said, we have to bring it all in. So if what we can bring in, we're we're limited to. So if you're allowed to bring in water, bring your own water. Lots of it. I saw a lot of people with their own trail, you know, the wagons, yeah, and they brought in their giant thing of water and they were set, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Yeah, you can't you can't bring your own beer. Just a general rule.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

You know, if you're going to any air show, you're out on the tarmac, you're out in the sun, you're exposed, be smart about it. You know, that's all I'm saying. Okay, I'm off my high horse now.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Off to I uh I'm I'm glad you let loose with all that.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

I just feel like I just needed to get it out there, you know. It's like I I know that the people that need to hear it probably won't hear it, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

They can learn the hard way. And we we had people learn the hard, hard way last time.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

Yes, we did. So back to better things.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

And truly fly day. Hey, fly day. Speaking of the B-25, and yes, I am prepared. Um my uh my talk reads at 40 minutes exactly, which makes my bride editor coach very happy. Good. She says there are 40-minute chairs, don't talk any longer than that. Um we'll have the B-25 there. Actually, we'll have the B-25 here because this is where it's gonna be. And I'm really happy to tell the story of the women flying the hot ships. Yeah. And somehow the in the promotion the title got changed to hot aircraft. I guess somebody thought people would get confused by the term ships, but that's what the women called them. Yeah. I want to fly the hot ships. I want to fly the Mitchell and the Marauder and the Mustang. Yeah. And they did. Uh there weren't very many of them, but the and some of them paid the ultimate price.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

But uh Well, I'm excited for it for sure.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

I am too. I love telling this story.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

It's gonna be a great story, and then I get to fly right seat for the for the flying part of that. And then uh later that night we're actually doing a flyover for the rodeo here in town. Um we'll be doing two and the B-25. So we're gonna have a long day.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

It is gonna be a long day. You'll get some hours for your logbook.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

But I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

Well, partner, this was really appreciate sitting down. I appreciate the homework assignment.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Well, I you've got a real job, and you know, I I read books for my not real job.

SPEAKER_03 42:07

I gotta say, it's been really nice to get home and and not turn the TV on and actually grab the book. And I I used to be a very avid reader, and I I for some reason I just got away from it. And um sitting down and reading his story and and just really seeing it from well, seeing something I'd never read before, but I mean seeing something from the point of view, I mean, a lot of it's from his personal letters, yeah. Home. Um it's it's phenomenal, and it's really kind of took me back into that place, and and so I'm really appreciative that I got to sit down and read it. So I'm gonna continue this.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Please do.

SPEAKER_03 42:45

And we'll do I got I got a whole shelf full of books that I've been collecting, and and it's time to start opening them up.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Well, and you in this one have uh a unique perspective from uh the co-pilot seat, but uh I history, his story. That's what it is. It's stories, and I'm I'm happy that uh that more people know the stories.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

Alright, Rob. Well, for our producer William Stevenson, myself, Scott Clairs, my partner Rob Gale, Dick Cole, rest in peace. Dick Cole's War, I highly recommend it.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

Check it out. Thank you very much. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Stay safe out there. Please do.