WInged Vicory "Classic" Episode 1: Charlie "Tuna" Hainline

The boys are off this week so we thought it would be the perfect time to revisit the episode that started it all, Charlie "Tuna" Hainline and Rob talk about flying jets in the service then transitioning to WWII planes after.

#warbirds #museum #flying  #podcast  #planes  #history #aviation  #family #nationalmuseumofwwiiaviation 

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The Museums next flyday will be on July 18th and the presentation will be about the WAAF's and the WASP's presented by our very own ROB GALE!  We are scheduled to fly the B-25, with Scott in the right seat!  It will be a fun one!  This will be a great one for all the women out there!

Get your tickets now for the Pikes Peak Regional Airshow here in Colorado Springs, CO. at  PPRAirshow.org.  Tickets are going fast!  Last chances to get the VIP experience!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Well, hello and welcome to the National Museum of World War II Aviation's Winged Victory Podcast. I'm your host, Robert Gale. With me is my friend and co-host, Scott Claire's of Westpac Aviation. In this podcast, we're not going to go into as much history as we do on our YouTube channel, although I'd encourage you to look at those videos if you haven't already seen them. What we're going to focus on is the aircraft themselves. We're going to talk to the people who get to fly them, also the people who maintain and restore them, like Scott, and also the people who scour the world for parts to keep these airplanes in the air. They're intended to fly. This is not a wax museum. And it's just going to be a fun trip, I hope. So tell us about yourself, Scott, a bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Well, thanks, Rob. Thanks for uh having me be a part of this whole thing. I'm really excited to be a part of this and doing this. So yeah, like you said, I do uh mostly the restorations as well as uh maintaining. Actually, do a little bit of flying here and there, not very often, but I wouldn't consider myself quite the pilot versus a the restorer. But uh yeah, I've been doing this for about 20 something years now. Um been around it my whole life, so it's really a passion. Really happy to be here and uh excited to tell some stories. So Rob, tell me about you.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Oh God help us. Um as I say in uh in the lead-in of the docent tours, uh, like many of the docents, I'm retired military. Unlike a goodly number of our docent, I was never never an aviator. All my time in military aircraft was as cargo.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

So you weren't dropped on your head as a kid?

SPEAKER_03 2:03

No, no. Uh at least not that I that I recall. Um to go into a little more detail in the interest of full disclosure. I first served as an enlisted Marine and then became commissioned in the Navy. I was what the Navy calls a black shoe, again, non-aviator, all all two-dimensional stuff at sea on destroyers. I finally escaped the fleet to naval special warfare and ended the last half of my career with Navy Special Warfare and Joint Special Operations Forces. And the the last best assignment I had was defense and naval attache in Albania. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

So I'm sure you're very humble about what you've done, but we'll definitely explore a little more of that throughout the years. Hopefully.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

No we'll be doing this. I sh I should be humble, especially when I get around guys who've really done it. I was privileged to work with and for some no-kidden warriors and heroes, but I am neither. Yeah, no doubt. But to get to the chase, we're gonna talk about this airplane. Let's talk about this airplane. Yeah, she's not she's grown on me. I gotta say, when I first walked in here and looked at her and know she was a hell diver. I'm a dauntless guy. Always, well, sorry. Um but she is she has really, really grown on it.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

When we started looking at it, yeah, because I was really looking at it like, oh my gosh, you know, this is this, we're working on this, we're building this thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Bit daunting.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, it's very daunting. It's uh it's a big airplane, it's a complex airplane, it's a rare airplane. Oh well, yeah. I had never even seen a hell diver, and then we're gonna build one. So it was it was quite the quite the shock when we brought this thing in. Um to give a little background on that. Uh, this airplane is an SB2C-1. It's one of three Helldivers now flying in the world. Um the only Dash 1 flying in the world, so it's a very, very rare airplane. Um it was unceremoniously dumped in a lake in Lake Washington, which we will um get into that story in much more detail in the very near future. But it was recovered in the 80s. Um eventually it was sold to the Slattery Family Foundation.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

We love the Slatteries.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

We love the Slatteries here, they're great people and they really do a lot for this community. And uh so they tapped uh Vultures Row in California to do the restoration on it, start the restoration. Um they did the majority of the center section and a lot of the fuselage and made parts and and whatnot. And then uh we finished one of our last projects, and then Mr. Slattery decided he wanted to have us finish it. So we brought it here and spent the last four and a half years um getting it to where you see it today. It flew for the first time on August 10th, 2024, which was pretty monumental. Um again, like you said, same thing, you know, it it has grown on me quite a bit. And to see it in the air, and it's just a magnificent airplane, very great airplane. So we actually just did a public demonstration for the first time. Sure did uh a couple a little about a week ago, and you were fortunate enough to be able to grab the pilot, Charlie Hainline, affectionately known as Tuna. He's out of Houston, he's our one of our chief pilot, and uh you were able to sit down with him and have a nice little conversation.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Yeah, a couple of notes. Um I'm a docent here, and so I I give tours, and typically every time I have made a mistake, Scott's dad, Bill, is with an earshot. And one of the mistakes I made was telling people that the standard at Westpac is perfection. I was quick quickly brought up short, reminded there is no such thing as perfection. However, there is as perfect as human hands can make it, and that's what you're gonna see here. I guarantee this airplane is at least as good, probably far better, as when it rolled off the border line. Because you guys, I I I can't even begin to express my respect for the level of craftsmanship here. Finally, uh as a warm-up for our interview with Charlie, I allude to the fact that he is an Air Force combat pilot, retired, uh, out of the Air Force. But more importantly to me, at least, Charlie is also a qualified naval aviator. He did a cross tour flying F-18 Hornets off of carriers. So when he talks about getting an airplane back aboard the carrier, I will not call it a boat. He knows what he's talking about. He knows what he's talking about. He's an amazing guy, and we'll uh we'll all look forward to the time where we can spend time with Charlie. Um but with that, I'm gonna see this interview. Yeah. We'll be talking to our chief pilot, Charlie Hainline, after he has taken our Curtis Helldiver on its first public flight. Thanks, Charlie, and welcome. You're welcome. Good to be here. First uh impressions. I mean, you spoke about flying the Helldiver yesterday, and uh unlike its reputation and unlike some other people, you you're liking the airplane.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

I do. I like it. Um it's uh it's a big airplane, obviously. It's uh so they're they're you know, for it's a heavy airplane to fly on the flight controls more so than obviously like a P-51 or a a Corsair, but it is um not as bad as other airplanes out there and uh with like the TBM and the Yeah, you mentioned you mentioned the Avenger and that massive thing is that the city is a good thing. That thing's a truck, and and uh it's cool. I don't get me wrong, it's a historical, historically great airplane, and and it is a great airplane, but boy, I just think the SBD or SP2C, sorry, flies much better.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Well, the same power plant. Now, you've flown the Dauntless as well, so if you could kind of compare and contrast both of those aircraft in your experience.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah, different league, I would say, um, completely. Uh and and the historians would probably agree with that. You know, the Dauntless is is much smaller, uh, you know, carries basically one, yeah, there's other configurations of smaller bombs in the wing, but basically one big, you know, armor-piercing bomb uh where the helldiver can carry up to four uh in different configurations. So obviously a much bigger airplane, so kind of a different class, I would say. Um SBD is a great flying airplane. It's it's just a really nice, honest, you know, bunch of dihedral in the wings, uh very stable. Uh, I can see why the pilots liked it for sure, and probably why a lot of the uh negativity to the SBTC comes from because these guys are coming from a little sports car, SBD, to this to a truck.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well, and Hal Buell, the author of Dauntless Helldivers, said, you know, the the new kids who were just starting to check out in the SBD were really intimidated by the Helldiver, and I can see why.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Sure. Absolutely, you know, and you gotta think back in the 40s, you know, the experience level of the average pilot wasn't much, you know, steerman, T6B, T13, you know, a little bit, and then maybe maybe in the fleet for a year or two. But I mean, boy, we weren't as experienced as we are now in the military, and you know, there not many used it as a career or anything like that. So, yeah, so they're generally inexperienced guys.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Well, the old the old quote from Roy Grumman is this has got to be flown by a 19-year-old with 200 hours.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Right, exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

And you know, they they did that way. Well, but you are a qualified naval aviator, and you were talking about going into the pattern with the hell diver, obviously with the dauntless, it's probably a little bit easier to get down in the groove and right and get on the deck.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Yeah, I would say the hell diver, you know, if if I was to bring it aboard ship, um the difference, excuse me, mainly being it's just bigger and it's harder to make a quick correction to to the glide path or lineup, as you will, uh, to the carrier. So I think that part would make it the hardest, you know, to to and then it did in the difficulty. Again, just a just a bigger airplane and just bigger, doesn't move like the little SBD does, and then it's just it's a truck, you know. It's just a lot of a lot of strength to move it around. And what do you think it would be like getting off the deck? You know, that's about the easiest thing in the world. Well, I wouldn't say I guess the easiest thing in the world, but uh uh I you know it gets off the ground pretty good. It's you know, it got a pretty good set of flaps, and and uh uh I think the airfoil's a nice high-lift airfoil, so I don't think that would really be an issue. Of course, you're flying a lot heavier, you know, a lot you know, bigger bomb loads and fuel loads than the the Dauntless did.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

So again, relying on your experience as a no-kidden combat pilot, what's the choice? Now, I don't want to be controversial.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

That's right. I uh I well that's actually a great question. Um part of me says the the hell diver just because of the uh bulk of it, you know, that that that breeds security, you know, when you're flying with a lot of metal around you. Um kind of like the P47. I I think about when I fly that versus the Mustang, you know, man, I'd rather much rather be in a Thunderbolt than a Mustang. But um so in that respect, yeah, I think the Helldiver would be kind of the one people are shooting, shooting at you, and it has had proven itself, you know, pretty, pretty durable.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Well, and four guns instead of two forward. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

You know, you know, and it's just uh it's just a a uh level more advanced than the Dauntless. The Dauntless is the 30s design, and you can tell. I mean, in the cockpit, and the way, you know, it it is definitely a 1930s design where you know the the even though they were starting to design in the 30s, the hell diver seems more of a 40s. Well, it's all those change orders. Right, that's right. Exactly right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

That uh we learn about. So I you've flown a lot of war birds. Uh have you flown a C-47 and a C-46, though, for example?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

No, I have not. Uh the I've flown uh B-25s quite a bit, uh B-17 quite a bit, uh, but not uh not yet anyway, I usually say.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

Well I was uh I was thinking again back to the Curtis Douglas comp comparison between those two those two aircraft. Again, same mission, right? Uh but vastly different aircraft and vastly different reputations. So I I wanted to to get into that a little bit farther because I know you've flown Mustang's Corsair's The Thunderbolt, which I'm extremely envious of. Oh, yeah. But uh but I thought we'd we'd get into multi-engines, but you've got some acquaintance with the C-23, which was the other aircraft that was considered for the Doolittle raid. Right, the B-23. The B-23, yes, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Exactly. Yes. So uh uh one of the many things I do is I have a restoration shop in Houston, and we are uh currently uh restoring a B-23 dragon. Douglas built, obviously. Uh a lot of people say, oh, it's a DC3 with a bomb bay, which is about as far from the truth as you can get. It's uh it's a completely different airplane, it it just has some Douglas characteristics that kind of went throughout a lot of them.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

Well, you know, these aircraft companies reflected their founders, right? You know, Cartveli and Sversky and and of course Roy Grumman and all these guys. Right. In those in that era, they had their stamp on those airplanes. Absolutely. So most, I mean, very few B-23s uh built uh tail draggers. Obviously, you know, in hindsight, you look at the B-25 for the raid, you go, yeah, that one. Right. Um in your restoration, a lot of them wound up as executive transports. Are you going the bomber route or the transport route?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Right. We are going the transport route, and largely because it was owned by Howard Hughes. Oh, cool. And so it's got that um uh bit of history uh associated with it. So uh that's the idea, is uh kind of a Howard Hughes uh keeping the stock or not stock, the uh uh modified uh executive interior in it, and uh that's gonna be pretty neat.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

That's gonna be pretty glossy if it's a if it's yeah adhering to Hughes. Well, uh we're gonna land the figurative airplane here pretty quick uh and get you on your way. But I wound up at 223 this morning idea. Um and I wound up going back to Dick Cole's book because again, I had this idea of asking you about the uh the C-47, C-46, and of course Dick flew a lot of missions in the hump. It turns out, according to this book, he did fly a couple of couple of runs in the in the commando, but not much. Right. But I know you had the the privilege to, you know, meet him on several occasions, speak with him. He was a great friend to us as well. Right. I mean, we've got some beautiful stuff in this museum, courtesy of him. Yep. And I'd just like to touch base with the ability to sit down with a guy like that. Well, of course I am.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

No, you're too way too kind.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

No, no. It's you know, I I um I'm gonna talk to a couple of our docents because, as I told you yesterday, just missed out on that 102-year-old Hellcat pilot. Right. And I still want to get to what it feels like to be 23-24 these days and strapping into an airplane and going into combat. Right. And I I think of course we've got a couple of guys who flew no kid in combat in Vietnam, and that that was more akin to the World War II experience when there is no kid in enemy air, there's triple A, there, and of course Sam's. Um one of the, you know, you went to war in the unfair advantage category, which is the only way you can do it.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

I mean every chance you get. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

Always cheat, always. Always if you cheating, you ain't drying.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

So um is there anything else you'd like to leave us with? I again I'm so grateful for this opportunity, particularly the first of our hangar flying segments to be hangar flying with somebody who really knows what he's talking about.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Oh well, you again, you're you're too kind. Um you know, I I was um I flew uh a combat mission. My first combat mission was in the F-117 um over Iraq, actually, in the 90s, right? Soon after the Gulf War was over, and we did uh another strike um uh when they were firing in the no-fly zone type of thing. Yeah, so that was my first, and that was where I first saw uh a um ordinance being shot at me. Yeah. Uh and you know, as as so and I had been in the military at that point, uh shoot uh easy uh 10 years or so then. So you know, you in the A10 training and and stuff, but so we another envious oh right, yeah. Again, very lucky. Um, but uh so you you know you train, train, train, train, train. Um I guess probably the difference between now and World War II is is not always, but generally we seem to have a lot more time to train. They were kind of just rushed through, you know, you go out there, so we have the luxury of time normally. Uh so but that's a a plus and a negative. So you train all this time and you kind of get a little numb to the fact of the reality of everything, you know. So I can remember the first thought, actually, my A10 squadron was deployed to England doing our just normal kind of exercise when Saddam invaded Kuwait. And we weren't sure if they were just gonna send us from England, you know, straight on. We're straight on. And everyone's at first going, yes, let's go, you know, very, you know, the bravado. And then I'm sure everyone had their their own private thoughts of, you know, because he's he's threatening to eat, you know, I'm gonna if I catch a pot, I'm gonna eat him and make him deliver. Yeah, exactly. You know, which is also going, ah, BS, blah, blah, blah. But you think in your back of mind, they're gonna want to be, you know, they're gonna want to kill us pretty hard.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Well, and we we of course have Kim Campbell living here in town, retired.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Right, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Who brought her hog back. Sure. Uh-huh. And again, a pretty impressive Republic aircraft. Right, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

So it's it's you know, it's that that hey, let's go get them, you know, we're we're wearing to go, which we all are and were wanting, let's do what we're trained to do, and then you go, you know, I in Bosnia was more pronounced.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

Well, because we we lost uh a 117 in Bosnia.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

We did, and there was a lot of they were very well trained gunners. They weren't uh you know, they weren't just uh you know guys off the street, they were well trained and knew what they were doing, and there was a lot of it. So that made you think too, you know, there's these people really don't like me very much, you know. Yeah, and geez, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

So anyway, that's that's the that's uh I I gotta close with a uh story I just heard from my younger son's chief. He was a uh machine gunner in Iraq with the Seabees on convoy duty, and over the and he's up in the turret and up over the interphones like fireflies. There are fireflies. Right. What are what are fireflies doing in Iraq? And then finally the chief says, hey, boom, those are tracks are tracers. So just the unreality of it all, like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

That's very typical, you know.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

And yeah, he has since evolved into a a far better warrior than his old man ever was. But uh but that that initial if you get through that, right? Then you know you can you can settle down to business, and I think a lot of the bravado goes away.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

That's a fact. That's a fact, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

But I I've taken more of your time than I ought to. Uh wish you uh safe trip home. Looking forward to uh seeing you again for uh the the lightning day.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

And a few weeks from now. Just again.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

True, well, true gentleman. Truly my pleasure, and um happy to do it and thanks for doing this because it's you know, it's getting it out, getting the the information. Uh the guys like Dick Cole and uh you know Matt that we talked to today, you know. It's it's uh those guys' stories need to be out there too.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

It's Matt's turn in the barrel tomorrow morning. Good. Uh good. And uh William says we can uh do it in front of the airplane. Oh, nice. Oh, very cool. Outstanding no, thank you, Charlie.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Absolutely, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Safe journey. Absolutely. All right.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Well, that was an amazing interview.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

It is, and uh, I need to expand some on Charlie Hainline. I alluded to the fact that he is a combat veteran, he's a retired Air Force uh fighter pilot, uh, got to fly the A-10, one of my favorite airplanes, and then flew the F-117 Nighthawk in combat. But for my purposes, especially given this aircraft, the fact that Charlie Hainline is a qualified naval aviator, he did a cross-deck assignment with a Navy F-18 Hornet Squadron, so he is qualified to talk about getting the airplane back aboard the carrier. Again, I'm a non non-aviator, I don't call anything that size a boat, but Charlie knows what he's talking about, and it was just a real gift to be able to get his initial impressions on this airplane. Again, I got to see her fly in 24, yeah, but the the public flight that was really special.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

It is. I mean, to be able to just that that that's seeing the airplane in its natural environment. You know, and and you know, my thought every time when I get to sit underneath one of these airplanes while it's flying over my head is I can't even imagine what it would be like if there was 600 of them flying over your head.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

With a bunch of 20-something year old kids flying them and and and the fact that they could do that and and make those operations on a daily basis, it was just it just blows my mind.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Yeah, they were amazing people. They were and a lot of those folks in the backseat weren't even 20.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

No, they they were not.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

So goodly, goodly number of them, yeah, but they they stepped up and uh and served well.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

So yeah, so like you said, you know, I mean to have a guy like Charlie, who's obviously the guy is he's been around, he's he's decorated, he is, he has flown a lot of really cool stuff. Oh yeah, you know, and to have such a storied career in the Air Force and then to to to move over into the Navy with the that cross-pollination program, and then to um end that and then get into the warbird sector, you know, and to be able to go out and and continue that flying with Air Force heritage flights, yeah um, you know, he's been able to fly on both sides of that.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Exactly. He flew the phantom and flew with the phantom. Flew and flew with the phantom in a Mustang and a Thunderbolt. Yeah, so I mean that's that's that's quite a curriculum Vitay.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, it's quite a career. So anytime you get a chance to sit down and and and get your ear bent by Charlie, you do it.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Well, I'm and I'm looking forward to the next time. But speaking of the next time, I'm about due for my docent tour. Well, then let's get you out of here. Let's wrap this up so I can go uh tell stories.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

So where can we find you on your you obviously you you told me you don't have any social media? No, no, I so we're gonna fix that. Yeah. We're gonna get you on the social media so we people can can tell you what you're doing right and how you're not looking right and everything else on campus.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

There'll be plenty of the latter.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

But you can find me on uh Facebook or Instagram at Scott Claire's. Um you could also highly encourage to go on to the museum websites. Um we've got worldwar iiaviation.org. That would be the National Museum World War II Aviation website. There you can see where what our events we have going on for the month. Um, any special dates, anything going on, you can see it on there.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Well, we uh I notice we haven't put up the August fly day.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

So yeah, we'll be doing an August fly day, and that's August 16th, and that's gonna be with the P47, and Fred Betcher is gonna be doing the presentation on ground attack.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

So you can uh for the price of admission, you can come out, you can see a presentation, you can see a vintage warbird fly. It's really worth the price of admission. And if you haven't been here, you need to come out. We were just uh put on travel trip advisors uh list for number eight in the country for top attractions and things to do. So that's over everything in the United States. We're number eight. So you really, really should spend the time to come out, bring your family, spend three, four, five hours out here. You never know what you're gonna see.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Oh, you're gonna see treasure.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

We're flying museum, and there's oftentimes where we just decide we're gonna go fly something, and you happen to be there and see it.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

So yeah, it's really good. That's that's really fun, and you see uh a 10-year-old's face light up when they're flying our uh N3N simulator. That's that's cool. And all those kids at the fly day, man, they were they were mesmerized by this airplane.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Well, yeah, I mean, it look at it. You call it a beast, it's gonna bring your attention, it's gonna get your attention, and kids love it. You know, everybody really, really enjoys being out here, and we enjoy being a part of it.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Well, Scott, I promise this old uh Intel guy will get over his aversion to social media, and uh, or maybe it's just that I'm a Luddite. I don't know. Scouts honor. I'll uh I'll get out of here.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Well we got time to work on that. So that's good. Make sure you check us out. Uh we're gonna have several more, a couple more segments on the Helldiver on different aspects of it, and we look forward to uh speaking with you guys on a hopefully weekly basis. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you.