Episode 7: Baba Arnold and ULI Brothers

In this episode, Baba Arnold Perkins, the founder of the Brotherhood of Elders Network, sits down with Ubuntu Leadership Institute members Sione Vuki and Emari Adams to talk about careers, manhood and resilience. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Welcome to Bobbers the Brothers, the podcast where wisdom meets action and the legacy of our elders fuels the passion of the next generation. I'm Spencer Whitney, and in this series, we're diving deep into the powerful and transformative work being done by the members of the Brotherhood of Elders Network. Each episode will shine a light on the stories, challenges, and triumphs of those who are dedicating their lives to uplifting our communities. From mentorship programs to cultural initiatives, from education to entrepreneurship, these brothers are making a difference. One step at a time. Whether you're looking to be inspired, informed, or just want to hear the voices of those making an impact, you're in the right place. So sit back, listen up, and join us on this journey from Bobbers to Brothers. Welcome everyone to another episode, a special episode of Bobbers to Brothers. I'm your host, Spencer Whitney, and today we're actually gonna be here with uh three amazing individuals. Uh we have two UOI members, and we have the founder of the Brotherhood of Elders Network. So this is very special. Um how are you brothers doing today? Blessed.

SPEAKER_05 1:14

Yeah, I'm all right.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Okay, all right, all right. Um so we're gonna start with introductions. Uh we're gonna start with uh Mike One and then move the all the way over. Um so uh Mike One, introduce yourself, sir.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

My name is Yone Buki from El Crito, California. Okay, and I've been in ULI for two years.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Okay, welcome, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

And in the middle. The father of four sons, the grandfather of four grandchildren, and the great grandfather of three grandchildren.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

Amazing. Thank you so much for being here today, Bob. Much appreciated.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

It is a pleasure to be here. Excellent.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Okay, and last but not least, you sir.

SPEAKER_05 2:15

Yeah, my name's uh Emari Adams, full-time student. Uh was born and raised here in East Oakland, and uh I'm glad to have been a part of the ULI. This is my first full year.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Excellent, excellent. Well, I'm glad to have all you uh Bobbers and Brothers here today. We actually got some other brothers uh in the wings and uh in some Bobbers as well. So um appreciate y'all being here as well to see uh this is I think it's the first time we've had a crowd this big for Bobbers and Brothers. So uh I appreciate y'all. Appreciate y'all. No pressure at all. All right. Um, well, the way Bobbers and Brothers is structured is I always talk to folks around uh one some of their ambitions, what they're interested in studying, if they're already, if you're already doing something in your career, um, and then we talk a little bit about that motivation. So today, because we also have a Bobby here who's had an illustrious career, multiple careers, um, he gets the opportunity to share some of his wisdom around uh just some of the the hurdles, the challenges, the triumphs that he's been through, as well as some that you know may come up for you all in uh the things that you're interested in studying. So, okay. All right. Um well we're gonna start with uh Brother Sione. Can you talk a little bit about uh what you're interested in in terms of your career, what you want to study, that type of thing?

SPEAKER_02 3:34

I'm in my third year at SF State right now. And I just changed last semester from computer science to ecology and well also conservation biology too. But with um with that major, I wanted to shift from doing computers to working on uh preservation more and um I'd rather not deal with things like AI and whatnot. I'd rather be dealing with like real life and people and stuff like that. Um That's also why I do ULI and I'm also an Hidden Genius to be more like with community. And I would want to do well, I just started with this internship called Oakland Outside, so as to expose black male youth to the outdoors because they don't really get the chance to do that like in places like out here and like in Oakland. Well, there are places, but I didn't even know that we really had places to hike in uh like up in near the observatory. I did that last week. So that with Oakland outside. So that's one thing, but I want to do that like when I'm older, I wanna maybe lead my own program for stuff like that. And then well, this upcoming summer I will be working in the Sierra Mountains for a month. So I'll be gone for a minute just working five days a week on a at a wilderness school. Okay, so kind of working on conservation, but then doing like two days solo camping or something, doing something.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Gotcha. Okay. So really it sounds like you like to stay active outdoors. Um, you know, you want to do things that are geared around community um and essentially staying away from some of the other parts of technology, like you mentioned AI, like you know, just being in front of people rather than having a screen separate you. Does that sound right?

unknown 6:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Appreciate that. All right. Uh, brother, I'd like to hear a little about what you're interested in, um, what you're thinking about in terms of your career, and and yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:15

Recently I've been trying to get as much internships in uh over last summer and this summer to put on my college application. I really I really want to focus on being a student and uh focus on my college career when that comes up. Um but I will say I am an aspiring entrepreneur, so this summer I am hoping to get like an a b a business LLC started up. That's so that's really my passion. So yeah, I do like working um with technology and AI in contrast to brother CONE. So I I find that interesting that we have kind of like this contrasting like duality of some sorts, you know, like we kind of balance each other out within the the brotherhood. So I just find that interesting. But um, yeah, I guess I'm just an entrepreneur.

unknown 7:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

And just around that, like what was your business to being being an entrepreneur?

SPEAKER_05 7:08

Yeah, so it's not just mine, it's uh I'm partnering with my my brother and my friend um Larry Darnell and Kayen Beff, and we're kind of focusing on like all aspects of technology. So I'm an aspiring mechanical engineer. I kind of want to dabble in bioengineering, but I'm focusing more on the mechanical portion. I can't really say too much about that, but we I do have some some products and some designs in the works for that. And then they have their own uh projects that I kind of know about and help out with that has something to do with like biology and like neuroscience. So it's um it's pretty interesting.

unknown 7:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 7:48

Can't wait to put it out.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

It sounds very interesting. Yeah. If we want to hear more about that. Excellent. Okay. Yes, uh Baba Arnold, please tell us just a little bit about your career and just some of just a few of a few of the uh amazing things that you've been part of.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Um thank you for asking. Um I've been a gardener, I've been a college professor, I've been a counselor, I've been a uh uh uh principal, I've been uh a director of a youth service, I've been a director of a county department. So I've done I've been blessed to do a lot of different things and um have enjoyed the work that I've done because I always work toward being me. Uh so I'm not trying to do or be anyone else. So um I have a commitment to self uh and to the community. So um I've done a range of things. I've done 30 marriages. Um I just enjoy life.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

I hear that. Okay, okay. There's a lot around that. Uh so I want to talk about around resilience, and I'm gonna ask everyone, but I'm gonna start with you, Baba. Um, so was there a moment like early in your career um when you maybe felt uh undervalued or maybe even invisible? And if so, how did you navigate that with what you were doing?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

So um it was an interesting moment. So I was in the Navy. I joined the Navy at 18 years old, and um I was the only officer in boot camp that was an officer from the day I got there until the day I left. Um most of the Europeans washed out. I was the only one that didn't wash out. There were there were six squads, and there was a company commander, a sister company commander, and they all washed out except me. And so I realized that the company lost a skill because of race. Um and what happened as a result of that, it propelled me to go to college. Um, because if that was my competition, I didn't have any competition. And so as a result of that, it it propelled me to uh advance my education um and to put myself in positions that I didn't have to necessarily answer to the type of person that I had to answer to in service. So it was um it was eye-opening for me. Got it.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

And just around that, um, was there anyone at the time, I guess, that you'd consider a mentor when you were going through that, or you just kind of were able to figure it out for what you were interested in and then kind of move forward?

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, I was able to figure it out. It's it the story's interesting. So I went to Berkeley High School, and um I thought that white kids were really smart. And what, because they'd be talking about they went to Rome. I didn't know where Rome was, I thought Rome, Georgia, Rome, Texas, I didn't know where where where Rome was. And they would be in Switzerland, and I just had no idea where those places were. And so when they would come back, and and they were usually, most of them were, their parents were either working at the university or or their parents were students at the university. So they had advantages about travel that I didn't have. And so it wasn't until I got in service that I realized if if that their advantage was they had traveled, and that was it. My advantage is I had intellect. And when I was able to go in service and realize that my competition in service was the same as my competition in high school. The difference was traveling, it just allowed me to soar. And I realized, so my attitude is if if this is my competition, I don't have competition. And so as a result of that, I was it um, it gave me the confidence to move forward and to achieve what I wanted to achieve. The only thing that has ever stopped me in my life is me. You know? I mean, I I've I've been, if I if I had an enemy, I was my worst enemy, and the things that I didn't do was because I didn't have the courage to do. And so I don't blame other people for what I did or didn't do. It's on me.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

I hear that, taking taking ownership over your life and just everything around that. Uh, where do you think some of that courage, I guess, came for you when you just talk about that, of like, you know, something that maybe you thought was a risk at the time and shied away from it and maybe changed your mind? Or did did you experience that too?

SPEAKER_00 12:52

I did, yeah. I mean, you know, there have always been low times, but I've never allowed the the low times to be the main thing. Um, you know, when I'm driving a car in California, I have flatlands, I have hills, I have mountains, and I come back to the to the flatlands because that's how life is. Life is a series of up and downs, and the goal is to even it out. And so I've always thought about how do I even even out. And I and I come from um from a strong family background. Um my uh I'm a I'm a father's boy, um, and I just had a lot of respect for my father because he instilled in me that you can do what you choose to do, that the only people who can stop you is you. There's always a way around something, you know. Um, and um I've been able to move around um pretty well as a result of the teaching that I received. And then I have other mentors. I have, I have one of my great mentors was Lee Franklin, who was 21 years old when he died. So he died, he uh he was 21, and I was probably in my 60s. And just the fact that he went through a health issue and never complained. The inside of his mouth sloughed off, for example. And he never complained, he never complained, and and to this day, um, he has given me the courage, even though he's been gone probably 10 years now or more, he's given he gave me the courage. If if if he can do it and not complain, I know I could do it.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

I hear that. I hear that. That's a real example there. All right, uh, brothers uh Sione Um and I'm curious if there is anything in particular for you all, like a challenge that you are facing as you're starting in your career, just learning more about it, or just something that's maybe been like like a rough patch that you've had to like kind of get over or figure out. And brother Sione, I'll start with you.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

I think that or I know that one of the things is maybe my effort, or I think that I'd hold myself back on purpose sometimes. And it could be from like when I was younger, and like if I was putting my full effort into things, it seemed like I was trying too hard, or people would complain. Or that's what it felt like to me, so then I just stopped really trying, or like believing that I should put my full effort into things, even like I'll do it, and then maybe it like they'd make it seem that I wasn't doing things correctly in anyways, so then like I was putting in minim minimum effort afterward, and if I got good results, then I'll just be like, okay, but then bad results. It's just I think that I could try harder in things in general.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Okay. Um, what do you think is I guess some of that I guess motivation is just try harder? Because you mentioned about like sometimes you doing things and not maybe getting the response you want. Do you feel like it's more about being like a perfectionist or you just getting more comfortable with whatever the task is and then you know, you know, focusing on that?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Um it could be comfortability, but I think it's just well, how I see things, like um not as important in ways, like maybe my values aren't in the right place. So, like, I feel like I could also value my time better if I was putting in full effort.

unknown 17:20

Got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

And um, one more question around that. Is there something that you feel like as you're moving into your career that you feel like you need help at or help with that you haven't been able to receive it before, but you're maybe not sure how to ask? Has that come up for you?

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Um, maybe advice on I I know that I procrastinate a lot and things are forget. And those are two of the worst things that you could do if you have a career. Career. But um maybe advice on like next steps because I'm 20 years old. So I'm basically already like once college is over, I'm and I have to be the no the adult. So maybe advice on the transition.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Got it. Okay, okay, that's good to know. Alright. Alright, uh, brother, uh uh, what's a challenge that you've been uh that you've had to deal with? Um, and and I know you mentioned uh entrepreneurship and building that out, and you have uh two of your friends you're doing that with as well. Like what's a challenge you faced as you're getting into your career?

SPEAKER_05 18:41

Um I'd have to say there hasn't really been one specific challenge. It's probably been like a couple of different challenges, but I guess challenges. But I guess one I can mention would probably be scheduling, finding the time and place we can all like, you know, sit down and and kind of plan and and design and just work together because we all have different schedules. And I know one of my friends, he's like a bit older than us, he's already in college, so it's kinda it's kind of hard for all of us to gather and kind of just work together. So that's just one main issue.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Gotcha. Okay, so timing is it around access to anything in particular whether it's resources, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:27

I will have to say that's that that was gonna be my other challenge. Resources definitely, we we do have some some issues around funding and like money, which we are trying to currently work on, but yeah, that's that's another big issue.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Okay, okay, got it. Alright, so for for both of you, in an ideal world, um, as you mentioned, like whether it's around money issues, procrastinate, like what does it look like for you to in the ideal world to be excelling at your career? Like, what are what are those things you guys think you would need or want to add on to your career?

SPEAKER_05 20:02

Um to excel, what would I need like in an ideal world? Probably probably like um well, we kind of have my mentorship because of ULI, which I'm so grateful for, but I would have to say access to more resources uh as in money. Um maybe like a space for us to work in, which you are currently working on, and uh just more time for us to gather and like work together. I think that would really that would really like expedite this process, you know?

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

How about you, brother?

SPEAKER_02 20:37

I think better work ethic or drive would push me farther than any money. Because like my goal isn't to make the most money I can, it's to I guess help the most people I can and also enjoy nature.

unknown 20:59

Got it.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

But okay, okay, cool. Now, Bob Arnold, um, having listened to uh uh both these young brothers talk about some of the I guess some of the struggles they're facing, have you dealt with uh I guess issues around procrastination or around getting money together or that type of things that um in your career might have been a hurdle or something that you've had to deal with?

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Procrastination for sure. I mean, and even to this very day, um I procrastinate, I've figured out how to manage it. Um and also my wife is very helpful because if she has a project due in a month, she'll start tomorrow morning. And um, so so that's when that's been helpful. Money has not been much of an issue. I mean, I've been able to figure that out um in terms of people that. I've connected with people that I know. I think I put in enough time and work in the community, in the philanthropic community for sure, to be able to make phone calls and to cause things to happen. So that's been a blessing. But procrastination can be a problem. Some people are self-starters, and some people have to be pushed. And I just think that's the nature of the world. At one end you have people who are self-starters, at the other end you have people who procrastinate, and sometimes self-starters are working on starting too fast, and sometimes procrastinators are working on starting too slow. And so it's figuring out in your life how to have that happy medium. Because one is not bad or good, they're just different. And I think that the part of the key is to recognize they're different and not bad or good. We often make things bad or good, which are not bad or good. They just are, you know, and those are the things that we have to work on. If I know that I'm lacking in one area, I need to work on that area because it's not so much for you. It's for me and how I feel about myself. Because I always want to feel as comfortable as I can with myself. And if I'm bullshitting, I know that I'm feeling comfortable. So for me to front you off, I got to front myself off first. And I have too much respect for myself to be fronting myself off. And that's part of the lesson that I think one has to learn as you're growing up. That you are what you have, as well as being a part of a whole. And so I think of us as a photograph. A photograph is made up of thousands of dots called pixels. And each pixel is important. If you have blurry pixels, then you have a blurry photograph. And so each person in the Umbutu Leadership Institute, we keep saying ULI, and I don't know if the audience knows what ULI is, but the Umbutu Leadership Institute, each of us make up a picture. So when each of us go out into the community, we we represent the whole Umbutu Leadership Institute. Because we are part of the dot of that. And so we have to carry ourselves in a way that is respectable. So when someone does talk about the Umbutu Leadership Institute, they say, ah, that's an institute that is really great doing great things. If we're sloppy about this, oh no, no, I don't, I don't want to, no, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't put my child in that because they're they're weak and sloppy. So yeah. Life is a practice. What the foundation we lay now is a found is a house that we'll build when I'm 84 years old. It's a house that I've built over the last 84 years. It started when I was young. It started when I was in service, actually, when I was 18 years old. And I've made a point to build so that now I can relax and not be stressed out about what I should have done or could have done or must have done, etc. So it starts now.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

I hear that. The best time to start is yesterday. The next best time to start is now. That's something I have to remind myself, um, in particular, just when you're talking about uh procrastinating and things like that. I'm someone uh if I know I need to do something and I haven't done it yet, I'll start to get anxious. And once I start getting anxious, like everything else feels feels much harder to do and stuff, so I try to stave that off as early as I can. So I'm not waking up early, like, oh I got this extra thing, and yeah, that happens a lot to me. So I I definitely definitely understand that.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Well, there's a saying that Baba Chabley says, it says, stay ready so you don't have to get ready.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Exactly, exactly. Very important, very important. Um, okay, I'm gonna shift gears a little bit. Um, and this next question is I think more aligned with uh I think some of the the larger issues and things that we talk about in the Brotherhood of Elders Network and the Ubuntu Leadership Institute. Um, and that's around um, I guess how to be a man. Um and I'm curious, I want to start with uh you young brothers, um, and just hear your take on just from where you're at right now, my what do you feel it takes to be a man? What do you feel like is incorporated into being a man? So um, Brother C I'm gonna start with you and then Brother Mari, and then we'll go to uh Baba Arnold.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

I think having control over your emotions and how you react to things. Uh in high school, you can get away with, I guess, emotional outbursts at times, depending on what it is. But once you reach like 18 and up, like you're going to be tested as a man in the real world. So anything that you do, you're gonna be treated as an adult. So you need to have most of yourself together and to be able to live without you know reacting to certain things um the wrong way. Like, and you'll have more responsibilities that you'll take on that you have to continue to do, and then more and more as you get older, and maybe less as you get older, older.

SPEAKER_03 28:15

But I hear that. What are some of the um challenges or uh that you've faced already that make you say that?

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Um I would say in high school and middle school, I had a big problem with like anger issues. So I think an instance, maybe someone could say something, and I'd already like be ready to go or something like that. Even in like if I was basketball, if it was in the classroom, if I was at a camp, and then I s it wasn't as like it I started to think about it more, like, and like maybe how I was affecting other people, even if I felt like I wasn't in the wrong. So because like also I've always been a like a bigger person than people, like I guess strength wise. So then in a way I felt like I shouldn't be using like I guess a gift as a weapon or something, but so it made me not want to do certain things like continue with like judo had done. But also it made me more I don't know, closed off from people. Like I would have friends, but then felt like I didn't really have a good image to like reach out to people and like be very open.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

So got it. And it sounds like uh your anger got in the way of a lot of these things, of some interactions you would be having with people, but you're stopping yourself because you feel like it's gonna maybe push you into like, you know, kind of another mood, and then you know you don't want to be around that because you have to work on calming yourself down.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Is that is that type of thing that you dealt with or um I would say it's just like the results of certain certain situations just made me feel a certain type of way about myself. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Gotcha. And how are you doing with that now versus how you were doing with it then? Like when something came up, someone said something to you, you know, whether they were trying to bully you or whatever, and it just, you know, kind of sets you off. And like, what was your process for like, alright, I gotta chill out now? Like, do you like take time away from yourself? Do you gotta listen to music? Like, what does that process feel?

SPEAKER_02 31:01

I think so for a while I was just I would just walk off or just be okay, like not really react to things, but I feel that recently I feel like there's something missing from my daily life maybe that's making me go back to reacting in a certain ways, like more like um just from mouth, not really like physical things, but like I mean basketball is always gonna be talking, but some um it's getting really competitive sometimes when when I'm playing at SO State. But um I feel like the balance I find is when I'm like uh able to go like camping and stuff like that. That's when I feel like the most where I'm not really like I appreciate everything.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Got it. You feel grounded. Got it. Okay. Definitely makes sense. Alright, uh, Brother, how about you? Um what would you say um are some important aspects of what you feel like is like becoming a man or just being a man?

SPEAKER_05 32:30

Um, that's a good question. To be perfectly honest with you, I feel like I don't really know for myself, honestly. Cause I've had conversation with different like male mentors and stuff, and like every like there are some obvious similarities, but it's all pretty much different. So I'm kind of still figuring that out. I'm only 16, so I don't exactly know. I wouldn't be able to say, but I guess maybe having a certain level of ambition and and tenacity is important. I feel like as like a young man, a young black man especially, you should probably have some level of desire or like lust to achieve certain things or to create a foundation so you can you can build that house that that the Baba mentioned earlier so that you will be stable in your future. So I feel like probably one of the most aspects of becoming a man would be ambition as well as restraint, because you don't want to like overdo or like excess, you know, you don't want to be excessive with anything you do, because then that'll lead to ruin. So maybe maybe balance ambition and tenacity, I would have to say.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

Good. I I like that those are uh all important words, and uh certainly agree, and and you you all kind of bounce off each other with your answers, with uh what Brother Sioni was saying, just around that level of restraint when you know you're getting angered by someone or a situation is angering you and you knowing how to like dial that back so you can show up as your best self. Um so yeah, very important. Um okay, Baba. Now for you, it's it's I'm gonna uh change the question a little bit, tweak it. So, how is your understanding of being a man shifted between your 20s, your 40s, and now that's what that's what comes in perspective.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Do you know how you get um in my 20s? I was attending San Francisco State, and that's when I was a part of the founding, one of the members, many members of founding the the uh BSU, and I was in SNCC also in Atlanta. So it was uh it was a time of revolution, and we were fighting for um human rights, not civil rights, but human rights, just to be treated with um respect. Um in my 30s um I was um I was teaching. I was I was a teacher and um I guess uh a principal, a counselor. Um I was getting high a lot with my peers. Um and and I had by the in my twenties, by the time I was 24, 25, I had two children. By the time I was 30, I had three children. Um and during that period of time, I was going to either undergraduate or graduate school, and I had to work because I had to take care of family. Taking care of family is really important to me. Family is just really important, family first. Um and then in my, I guess in my 40s and 50s, I just became much more responsible and responsive because I knew I had responsibilities. Most of my work has been as a um the equivalent of a CEO from a very young age from my 20s. And so I not only had responsible for myself, I've had responsible for like, you know, other folk. Um during that period of time, I stuttered a lot, especially in my 20s. I couldn't talk but kick your ass. And so I was my my nickname was Gator because I'd fight all the time. If I thought you were gonna tease me, I'm on you. Like like someone writes, what they say, like I am on you. Um, and so I had to um to figure out that I can't physically fight the rest of my life, but I can mentally compete for the rest of my life. And so what I've figured out now is that manhood is about being able to cry, just being able to break down and cry. Um, being responsible, being accountable, being truthful, being honest, um, and having self-respect. Um so those are seeds that were planted in me when I was young, and it took a while for those, for the crop to grow. Um, and I'm still learning. I'm I'm still learning from these two young men and and other young men and young women about manhood. So manhood is nothing that you achieve, it's a process of of self-ex-exploration. Um, yeah, and just and just honesty, just honesty, you know. Um I I know that if I think I can, I can. If I think I can't, I can't, and both are right. And so I tend to think that I can. Um, so that's yeah, so manhood is um taking care of my family, that's really important about manhood, and um and being able to to um to take um critique from my sons and not criticism, because I have old sons. My I have sons that are 65, 64, 58, and 41. Wow. And so and so I have to take counsel from them. And also being a man is allowing them to tell me what to do and not be defensive about it, not argue with it, because sometimes other people see things about you that you don't see. My children are a mirror of who I am, and so manhood is about being able to be mirrored, and and the mirror talks back to you and gives you feedback, and then you respond back to the mirror because I am my brother and sister's keeper. And I truly do believe that I am my brother and sister's keeper. So I don't talk about homeless people, I talk about my relatives who are unsheltered, because they are my relatives, and for me, that's a part of manhood is being able to reach out and be a part of other people and not apart from.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

I hear that. I hear that. And Baba, what's something that you wish you knew at, say, an early age in your 40s, maybe your 20s, just around being a man? Just some of the, you know, because we all run into different roadblocks, whether it's dealing with family, whether it's work-related, you know, all these other factors. But what's something you're like, you know, you got that advice, you heard it later, or you heard it early on in your life, and it didn't really quit for you until you're like maybe 25, maybe 36, or in your 40s, you're like, oh yeah, I I should have been doing that. That really makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Hmm that's a that's a good question. Um maybe being less defensive as I think about it, because stuttering, I allowed, words important, I allowed my stuttering to make me, I allowed my stuttering to allow me to be defensive. Um, and so once I accepted that because I stuttered doesn't mean that there's something wrong with me. Just I stuttered. I mean, you know, some people have they don't have a fingernail. There's nothing wrong with them, they just don't have a fingernail or whatever. So, so I mean that was probably one of the things and um that I learned over time that I didn't always have to have my guard up, um, that I could let my guard down, and life is gonna flow. If I don't block life, life flows. So I don't know if that gets at the heart of it, but yeah, that was um that was one of the things, because I would fight you in a minute. And and I look back at that and and I I smile about it now because I was defending a weak ego. If I had a strong ego, I wouldn't, because you know, I could call you a sack of whatever. I mean, I won't use the name on this podcast, but I could call you um a punk AMF, and you'd jump and or I could call you a microphone glass of water with ice and you wouldn't respond. And so I've had to learn not to respond to triggers, not to allow myself to be triggered by bullshit. You know, so that's something you know that I've learned over time because you know, growing up they say sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never harm me. And I used to hear that, but I didn't apply it to me until I got later on. And words cannot harm me unless I buy into them.

unknown 42:58

Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

Some some sage advice there. Um, so um for you young brothers, I'm just curious, does uh does any of that resonate with uh with you all in terms of kind of where you uh where you all are in life?

SPEAKER_05 43:13

Um I will say I'm usually the one spewing the words at people. So yeah, I mean, when I'm interacting with people, and it's just natural for me, I have no like malicious intent behind it, but you know, I may joke around a little bit, and you know, people might get a little bit butthurt, you know, they they might react too much, and honestly, I just sometimes I get confused by it because it's like I was just joking. I didn't I didn't re it's like sometimes it doesn't register to me how harmful my words are or how it can impact someone because people do tend to buy into it, especially at my age, so it's like I do have to show a level of restraint with or or a level of a level of empathy because I know we're Can affect somebody, because I've been affected by words. I'm not gonna say I haven't. So I have to show a level of empathy in how I speak to people so they don't react a certain way. Because it's a slippery slope. You know, they react, then they do something to you, and then it turns into a it as it escalates the situation, so it's good for no one. So it's best to just be the mature person and just like don't say anything, and if you do, just apologize and let them have it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

Got it. Okay, yeah, that definitely makes sense. Um I'm uh very similar, especially when I was growing up. Um, you know, get get teased or something like that, and just want to have that quick response right back, so which can serve you sometimes, but it also needs you getting punched in the face.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

So, you know, there's yeah, there's both sides to that, and I definitely punch you in the face. Yeah. It's definitely the case.

SPEAKER_03 44:59

And uh uh brother Sioni, how about you? Uh was there anything, I guess, that you heard from everyone sharing that resonated with you? I know you spoke about you know anger being something that you've had to like control and rein back in. So, like, yeah, for you, what is uh is any of that advice uh uh yeah, resonate with you?

SPEAKER_02 45:20

Being able to not react to certain things. So I feel like I'm more of a reactionary person. Once someone says something, then it's like after that, then you're just like free reign for me. But I think that's something I could still work on, actually. But um because like Baba said, like there are certain things that can still be said that I'll not be able to forgive or something like that. But I think that I could work on um being more comfortable with myself and like the fact that like whatever it is factor false that I'm okay with whatever people say because I don't care. But I do care, you know. So I feel like I need to work on not caring about like not not caring, but being mature enough to know that they're not being mature.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

Got it. You know, recognize when it's constructive criticism versus, you know, someone talking trash and then same thing with like compliments, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

I just then it it like depends on the situation or who it is. Like I'll be fine with someone trolling me that I know in a way. But then if I don't know you, then I'll feel like it's a like a threat or something, or like that you really have something that you have a problem with. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Makes sense. You you you can joke amongst family, and then someone else from outside of family comes and says something like, hold on, you don't we don't have this level of comfortability. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

You know, she only mentioned a word that's really important that we don't give enough thought to, and that's forgiveness. Yeah, that's a very powerful thing within oneself, because if I don't forgive, it's like I'm holding on to a pile of whatever and carry it around with me, but forgiveness is being able to put that down. And so if and and it's the thought can still be there. So, for example, if you're wearing white pants and you get blood on them, um the blood stain might still be there, but but you wash it off. And it's not like you forget, but you forgive. You know, there is forgiveness, and you recognize that that was an experience that you didn't like, but you forgave the person or the situation. So that's a really important word for me is to be able to forgive. Um, and people say forgive and forget, and I I I don't know about the forget part, but to forgive.

SPEAKER_03 48:28

Yeah, and just around forgiveness, um, that's something a lot of times that's more for yourself than necessarily the other person. You know, someone could do something to you and they'll forget about it and go on with the rest of their life, but you can still be holding on to that as a grudge, you know, it's still there. And when you see them may think about them, that negative thought is the first thing that comes up. Um, and for a while, they're like, oh, that person needs to come and apologize to me in order for the harm to be repaired. Um, which is good in some cases, but a lot of other cases, sometimes people don't even know. Like, um, Brother Mark, you were just talking earlier about sometimes you say stuff to people and you're not even sure the the level or the measure in your words, how much power that that carries. It's the same idea. People hold on to that. Um, I'm definitely someone who's held on to that before, and it is it's its own process of like forgiveness, like of going through that, because it really isn't for the other person again, because it's it's you're the one sitting with that and have to have to move forward with that. So yeah, no, it's definitely definitely hear that around that. Um one of the things I I wanted to bring up too, um, and I thought was important um because Baba, you've been in, as you mentioned earlier, from a young age, kind of being in the CEO roles, and then uh both young brothers are in Uli, Ubuntu Leadership Institute. You all are dealing with leadership in different ways, whether it's learning or just having, you know, just those experiences and being around other leaders and and becoming that. So I'm curious, I'm gonna start with you brothers. Um, what are some traits that you two have noticed about being a leader of leadership or some things that you want to bring into the work that you're already doing, whether it's entrepreneurship or you know, just building uh other things up in your career. Um I'm gonna start with you this time, uh brother Mark.

SPEAKER_05 50:22

Um I'd have to say with leadership, it's kind of it's kind of annoying to me because on it's like a balance, like a delicate balance. Because on one hand, you know, when you're a leader, it's kind of all on you. You know, like this is like it's your thing, like you're leading this charge, or like when in whatever endeavor like you're you're doing, like it's it's it's all on you. But on the other hand, you have to balance getting people to listen to you and leading people, but also taking the time to kind of see their point of view, see where they're coming from, and kind of try to please your tribe or please your group. So not only are you getting stuff done efficiently, but you're also not being a tyrant, and everybody's happy with the ways things are are going. So it's um it's annoying to me because not not not only do I have to watch my mouth and how I say things and how things come across, I also have to watch the way I lead and kind of kind of kind of watch not only like myself, but kind of watch how everybody else's mood is. So I kinda when I'm leading anything with a group of people, it I almost feel almost like a babysitter in a way, because now I have to be aware of your emotions and your like levels and like your comfortability and your limits, and it's it's it's very annoying to me. Because I feel like we're the same age, man. You should be able to control yourself. I shouldn't have to calm you down and you get a little flustered, I shouldn't have to tell you to do this when you know you gotta do this. You know, so I don't particularly enjoy being the leader, but it's not hard, like it's not very difficult for me. It's just annoying.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Gotcha.

unknown 52:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

Brother Sionay.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Can you repeat the first question?

SPEAKER_03 52:15

Yeah, uh, what are some things you've noticed um about like leadership qualities, things that um you would either like to have or things you've noticed about being a good leader, you know? So just your insight around leadership.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Well, I'll talk about a situation last year when camping. Um so it would be my second year in Ubuntu Leadership Institute, and like as an intern, but then I'd be coming in and as an older person in the group with like high schoolers and whatnot. And I think that I was very comfortable in the place I was, and so I was willing to like I guess lead in a way that wasn't very like outgoing or like very like big, I would say, like, but just there, like the presence I guess is there. Like the the leadership is like I it's because like someone told me that I was a good leader there, or like that I was showing good leadership, but I didn't even notice. So I felt like just being myself there or and helping people in the ways that I do was good leadership. Because I for me, I don't really like being the first person to like do something. Like if someone's like um wants to answer a question or an answer to a question, like I'll I'll be the second person to answer if someone else didn't answer or something. Like I don't really like being like the forefront. Like I'll be support, like in basketball or something. If someone wants to be the best scorer, they can be the best scorer. I'll just do the other stuff.

SPEAKER_05 54:27

So So like you take one for the team often. Say it one more time, brother. So like you're like you're the type of leader that takes one for the team and kind of like holds it, holds it down.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Yeah, I feel like I would be like that, like the the backbone. And if I needed to be the first person to lead, like to lead something, I think that would be like something I'm not as comfortable with, which I need to get used to, because I'm going to be. Well, I want to be someone that is going to lead, like maybe like lead my own organization or something.

SPEAKER_05 55:08

Do you um because I I've noticed this, like, this one toxic trait about leadership that kind of like really like gets on my nerves. Do you notice that people tend to follow, even if they're not qualified or intelligent enough, or even have the right social skills, they tend to follow the people that they like the most.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_05 55:28

Like you like you have to like certain certain people that get leadership positions are often like people pleasers, or they just have popularity. So, like, do you notice that sometimes a leader might not be leading effectively, but they just they're just popular so people listen and then things don't get done.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

I think that's the reality of like today, like on social media, but just because someone's famous or the way they look, then they're automatically like a leader. Right. So I mean I I agree with you that they're not that that shouldn't be the redeeming quality of a leader.

SPEAKER_05 56:10

Has that um has that like affected you in like any way?

SPEAKER_02 56:14

I would say for me, um not really like a leader for me isn't like someone like LeBron James or something. I think a leader for me is like Baba Arnold.

SPEAKER_05 56:37

So I'd I'd agree with that. Bob Arnold is a is a very great leader.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

I'm not I think well I after high school I was able to figure like it's not like I was able to figure it out, but I was not as immature believing that our leaders in our community are athletes and rappers and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 57:04

Right, but they do hold like a lot of influence on the community. And like unfortunately, a couple of those guys are like maybe more than a couple are not maybe the best influence, especially on our community specifically.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:18

Like if you had to change that, would you like kind of shift the focus that that rappers and athletes have over to maybe s like some other community leaders like like our host, like Spencer Whitney, you know, like he's he's a great guy. He seems like a um a decent human being. He he has a great work ethic. I mean much appreciated. You know, he's asking us these great questions. Or or Baba Arnold or Mr. Holiday, who I know personally, who's helped me a lot, who has his own business, you know, he's he's a great role model. Like, do you think we should as a community try and shift the perspective or like shift the influence these rappers and athletes have over to like these other community members who probably don't get as much shine on them, which is unfortunate.

SPEAKER_02 58:03

Well, we definitely should, but I think the issue is that the most money is made showing those people as leaders.

SPEAKER_05 58:13

Yeah, and it's kind of like it's almost it's like intoxicating to the youth and like enticing because they want the same things and they unfortunately aren't exposed to different um areas or like different pipelines to where they can do other things that they may be interested in, but they have no idea it exists.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Because they're putting all their eggs in one basket.

SPEAKER_05 58:34

Exactly, or they just don't even know what those eggs are because they see these different things on television or teachers telling them one thing, and you know, they just haven't been exposed to the right areas, so it's kinda tragic in a way, you know.

SPEAKER_03 58:48

I hear that. There's limited ideas around success. And because there's limited ideas, it's like, oh, it's this path, this path, or this path. You can let's say rap, you can play sports, you gotta be an entertainer. That's pretty much it. You know, those type of things definitely come up, and it's like, oh, well, these people are successful, so naturally they must know what to do with everything, so they should be, you know, good leaders in that sense or have good advice, but everyone's path isn't the same. And you know, how they people achieve certain success isn't always the same, and it can be positive, it can be negative. You there's different ways to achieve it depending on what you want to do. So all that's important. I'm glad you were able to highlight that.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

I I have a different perspective about the notion of leader. So uh even though I've been the in an executive position for years, I was a steward. So leadership has passed between the four of us during the time we've talked. Stewardship is I take something and make it mine, and I do everything possible. So my notion of quote-unquote leadership is the more that I could join you, the more we get something done. So um people say Trump is our leader. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It would be someone who would have stewardship and made whatever it is theirs, and they're gonna make the do the best of it. And and I encourage people to look up the word leadership, um, stewardship in the in the dictionary and see what it says. So my goal where I've always worked is my title was director. That's a title. And what that meant to me was I wanted to work with you and cause you to be the best you could be, not to tell you what to do. You know, I work with my last as the public health director, 500 people, 500 colleagues. And when you walked into my office, and this a lot with doctors, always interesting, they want to come in and be in charge. And I would say there's a picture, Malcolm X was up there, and I said it's made up of 100,000 pixels. Which pixel is the most important pixel? And so they'd say, Well, there's none. And I said, You're absolutely right. And so your job is you're part of a puzzle, and you determine where you fit in that puzzle. But the goal is to is to complete the puzzle. So that was always my goal is to complete the puzzle and not you put it there, you put it there. No, mm-mm. Where do we think the pieces ought to go? And and that's been successful. The same thing with the with the uh brotherhood. I am one of the people in the brotherhood. Whether I was one of the founders or not is unimportant. The important to me is that the brotherhood is still going, and we have the Ubuntu Leadership Institute. That's what's important. And so um I think people get all charged up about the whole notion of leaders, um, you know, a rapper's a leader. He's not a leader, he's just a rapper. You know, he's able to run his mouth so that people can uh listen to him. So um to me, stewardship, I've never wanted to be a leader, I've never tried to be a leader. I will be one among those of us who lead. And when when when when my turn comes to play the saxophone, I play the saxophone. When it's when you're the trumpet and and and and uh yours is the oboe. So that's kind of we are an orchestra and I I just don't yeah.

unknown 1:03:10

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

So anyway, that's just how I see the world. And and I think the whole leadership thing is a European thing. Because in Africa, we're communal. You know? And so you know, we're so anyway, it's um I'm I'm with you, Baba.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:28

I'm definitely with you on that. Um, it is there is a um a large communal aspect, and particularly for those who aren't um or uh or don't know too much about the Brotherhood to Elders Network, um, there's plenty of opportunities for different people to lead. So during some of our monthly meetings, we get the opportunity on it's really on a rotation now to do the Mhotep talks. Uh not the TED Talk. I forget how long TED Talks are what, 10 minutes, something like that?

unknown 1:03:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:55

A little bit longer. Um hours is a little bit shorter, um, but it is um it's a different type of AI. It's not artificial, it's ancestral intelligence.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:05

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:06

So, you know, bringing that into the fold. So um, well, gentlemen, this has been great. I have um one last question for you all. Um, and it's uh it actually kind of dovetails into what uh Bob Arnold was talking about um with uh the different organizations. So I'm curious to hear from um from you all. Um I'll start with you, brother Sione, um, and then uh you, brother Mari, um, and then uh Bob Arnold. Um what do you hope to see with the future of ULI and the Brotherhood? I'll start with you, Brother Sione.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:41

I hope to see myself still in there in uh Brotherhood and ULI. Um I do feel a lot better when about what Baba Arnold said that I don't really have to be at the front to be a leader, and I can be the backbone or piece of the puzzle. And I just think that I do have a lot that I can bring and achieve and improve on, but like I mean, start today. Ah, here then.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:23

Okay, alright.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:24

Alright, Brother Mari.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:26

Um I think ULI and the Brotherhood is very, very um useful and it provides a good influence on our community. One that could produce a lot of good um young black leaders for the next generations to come. So I think kind of how like missionaries from the church spread the word of God, I think I might take it upon myself to kind of spread it throughout the the country. You know, I feel like I feel like other young black men in different Could use the same level of resources that I have. I've had the blessing of um being able to use. So I think once I once I graduate and um get a bit older and get a bit more experience with leadership, I might take it upon myself, with their permission, of course, to kind of spread it to different states, you know. And push the message through my business if it when when it gets up, not if it's it's gonna get up, trust.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:28

For sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:29

Like that. Alright. Baba Arnold.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:35

I see. Um I'm a gardener, and um um if I take the seeds and throw them on the ground and put water on them, they might not grow. But if I take, if I prepare the soil and plant the seeds with purpose, with the right distance, with the right fertilization, a crop grows. And when the crop grows, the crop puts out seeds. So I see the brotherhood as being um, over the last 15 years we've gardened, we've we've planted seeds, and now we have a instead of having 10 seeds, we have 30 seeds, 50 seeds, 100 seeds. And I would see the umbuntu Leadership Institute fellows be the seeds that are sown throughout the community here and throughout the nation because I think that what um ULI is doing is really important. Um I think that um there are seeds to be sown, and I think that we can create a great crop. Um and so ULI is the Brotherhood in perpetuity. So I'm just first of all, I'm honored to be sitting with the two of you, um, to allow me to take this time to hear from you and to share some of my thoughts. It is a real honor. It's a real honor because everyone was not asked to sit in this seat. So I'm honored to be able to be invited to sit in and thank both of you and the rest of you. Right on, right on.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:28

Um, well, I want to thank everyone who's come out today. Um, Baba Arnold, uh Brother Sione, Brother Mari, uh Brother Terence, who uh uh sitting over here. And uh the rest of you brothers and brothers in the bedroom. Give yourselves a round of applause. Come on. Have a sea uh I appreciate um you all taking time out today um to speak with me and each other, to just talk about this, um, particularly for Bombasa Brothers. Um I think one of the best things about these organizations is the intergenerational aspect of it. You're sharing how you feel, Baba gets to hear about it, gets to respond back, and yeah, it's it's that that knowledge being passed back and forth. And like Baba said earlier, um, everybody gets a chance to lead. Um, and I think that's important because it can't just be one and it should be all. All right. Um, but thank you all so much for your time on this uh Saturday afternoon. Um this has been another episode of Bobbister Brothers. Um please stay tuned. We have a lot of amazing interviews coming up, but uh definitely take some time to uh listen back to this one. Thank you all so much.