Lenormand, Aquarius and Language of the Cards

Welcome, seekers. In this conversation with Marco Felgueiras, we dive into Lenormand, tarot, what truly makes a powerful reader, Aquarius energy, and everything in between.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Welcome, Marco. Thank you. Thank you for the invite. Where where are you on the globe? Oh, I'm in uh Lisbon, Portugal. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

I yeah, okay. I'm trying to think, like, I have a friend who travels like in a boat, so she's always like moving around and stuff. And I think she was just there before she went to the Canary Islands. I know it's like a long thing, but she travels everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

From here, she would be really near to the Canary Islands.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

I'm bad at like the international thing, but yeah. Okay, so you are closer to that area. All right. Oh, fun. Do you get out and like see things a lot or just you know do any exploring?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Where? In Lisbon?

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Yeah, and everywhere. Like you said you're so close to places.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Oh no, yeah. Um, I've been all over Europe. I've been to the States multiple times. I've yet to go to Japan, which is the you know, the dream journey, but um it's still on my bucket list. And um a couple of years ago I was in um in Belgium as well. So you know, I go it's when you when you're here and Lisbon is kind of like you can get cheap flights to go everywhere, it's kind of affordable to move around. Pretty privileged in in that in that instance.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Because like you're the fifth person I've talked to this week that's all about Japan. It's like what's going on in Japan that everyone's like, I've got to get to Japan this year.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Uh I have no esoteric reasoning behind Japan or spiritual reasoning uh behind Japan. It's just that I grew up with um we know with Japanese media a lot, with cartoons and things, and it where I really like it, and I like to learn uh languages. So I've learned I started learning Japanese when I was 19 years old. So it's kind of in my it's kind of that thing where I gotta go there, see if I can survive. Speaking of Japanese in like a couple of weeks. I think when I go where I go, like Tokyo, I'm pretty sure everyone can survive. But if I go into an island or or something, uh either I can say, uh, where you know, where's the restroom?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Or I just ate some poisonous fish.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Yes, yes. Please help me.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

No worries, no worries. Necessity, necessity makes creativity.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I don't I don't speak Flemish though, so I I speak a few languages, not Flemish.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

I'm sorry if Jorn actually my my my Portuguese ain't good either, so that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Okay, which is kind of funny because the last time I was in Antwerp, I was on uh you know one one of those monorails, and the guy in a really strong corner, I fell down. So, you know, I hit my head and I was fine. I sit down, and someone, a lady starts talking Flemish to me, and I turn to her. I was past the mistake of trying to speak French, which they hate there. And so I started saying in English and said, I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. And she's like, You're bleeding, your head is bleeding. Oh, but but you know, if it were here, I would have been dead uh because the emergency would have taken so long to get to me. But there no, so they were saying, like, oh, you know, it's gonna take a long time, it's Sunday. We're so sorry. Ten minutes, 10 minutes, and I had someone stitching my head.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 3:27

But it was fine. So as long as the admins good, so yeah, as long as so tell us, Marco, what's uh what's uh what's what are you doing in in Portugal?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

What's what makes you passionate? I think I've told this origin story before when it comes to cartomancy. There was a cartoon, uh which is from the 70s. It's a Japanese cartoon, so tracks, which is called Candy Candy, and it's very soap opera. Poor little orphan girl suffers a lot, etc. etc. So she is with the love of her life an affair, and they go to see a gypsy fortune teller, and she lays out the cards, and then from her expression, from the card, uh, you can see that the love interest is going to die. And I I I was probably five or six years old and I was mesmerized. I was like, oh my god, someone can do that. So I went to my mother and I said, Mom, I want to do this. This is what I want to do. I want to read cards. And my mother, of course, she says, she turns to me and she says, Yeah, sure. Yes, honey, sure, sure you will. Fast forward 10 years later, I bought I bought my first deck, and it I haven't stopped since then. I'm really, really passionate about reading cards, reading to other people. And uh it basically was just like that. So no esoteric story, no, I could say, I could lie and say, you know, my grandmother was a huge mystic, and in my veins flows the blood of ancient fortune. No, no. It all the blood in my veins that has to do with cards has to do with my grandfather who loved to gamble and play cards at the local pub. But perhaps that also makes me be passionate about cards. But uh, so it was a cartoon, and uh, and from then I was really, really interested to know what I could do with that.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

So yeah, yeah. And what's your go-to with uh cardoman's system, Marco?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Uh I usually when I have when I have readings, I kind of like go from tarot to playing cards to Le Norma. I really like learning new systems like the Sibylla, Le Conjour. Le Conjo fascinates me because I love Greek mythology. And so the fact that you have all those scenes and the stories that pan out, and you can actually adapt those kind of like mini comic books into Am I going to get fired? And then you have Helen of Troy surrounded by all those women crying, and you're like, probably gonna drink yourself to stupor with your friends uh after you've gotten the bad news that it's not gonna happen. Uh but usually it's those three it's playing cards, uh Tarot and uh and Lenoma, you know, Lenoma, of course.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Oh I love that. Yeah, because I was gonna say we thought that you had we were in the summit that you you know we were also talking at, everyone was there together. But you did the Grand Tableau or you're you're but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

I yeah, I love the Grand Tableau. I love having a lot of cards in front of me because it becomes like it becomes like a game of chess or like a detective game where you're kind of looking at those cards and seeing which goes here and where does that diagonal go and what card is on top and where is he looking at, and and if they're so happy, why is she on one end of the board and he's on the other end of the board, and they're actually meeting, I don't know, in the coffin or something like that. And you can just tell stories on and on. And I also like I wouldn't say like with historical spreads of like the Russian linchpin, or something like putting out 40 plain cards and uh on the table and just telling a story because uh probably I'm gonna be canceled after I say this, but I just can't stand anymore. Like um, new equinox reading. What can I take from the equinox? What expects me after that? It's like I created this new no, I just can't. I I don't like positional readings where everything is it's just in in a box and you just talk about things randomly. Like someone comes to you and they says, you know, what town am I going to move? And and they're like, Oh, you know, uh, yeah, it's the moon, so you're kind of dreaming about it, or you're unsure. But how does that help? It doesn't help. Maybe it's kind of like probably there's gonna be a lot of noise from beasts in the woods, like wolves, or maybe foxes, or things that make noise in the night, or you're going to an area of town where it's gonna be hectic and it's gonna have like either drunk people or you know, something like that that actually can mirror what's going on in day to day. Because I think at least the goal that I have when I'm reading cards for someone is to actually bring clarity and to bring things to the table that the person can leave and say, Okay, I have this to work with, and so from here I can, you know, I can go right and do this, or go left and do this, or do nothing. Because sometimes I remember someone came and she says, You know, I had um I was offered a new promotion at my job, and uh it's going back to the commercial area of things, I'm really hyped about it, or but I'm not sure if I still should stay in the area that I'm in. What can you tell me? So and I look at it and I'm just like, you know, one area, everyone someone's gonna take the credit of everything that you do, and that's gonna frustrate you quite a lot. And on the other one, there will be no evolution. And the person looks at me and says, like, well, thank you. And I was like, Well, what do you want me to say? That's what I see, you know. That's what in front of me. So I take no joy in saying that it's not gonna be great, but sometimes you're kind of like, you know, damned if you do, then what you don't.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

No, it's true. So what what but what makes a good reading Marco, uh, according to you? So you say clarity, but are there other things that should be a non-negotiable? I say that you shouldn't backtrack.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Sometimes when you have those people you read for that want to create some sort of narrative around them, and that they are so fixated on that narrative that they will start bullying you. You're reading and they're constantly interrupting. Oh, he's not like that. No, no, he's not like we're great. No, it's great. Everything's great. Usually I never backtrack. It's like I'm not infallible, uh, I'm not a deity, so you know I can. But usually if I say something, I don't backtrack. But for me, the best reading is the one where the reader listens to the query, listens to what is being said, but also to what isn't being said. Sometimes what the person doesn't say about the situation is as important as what they put on the table. So I don't I don't know about you. I'm sure I'm pretty sure that you have this experience as well, is that sometimes we get fixated on things that weren't mentioned or weren't giving a lot of uh of attention to, but it it then became the whole focal point of the things that we are reading. I see this a lot in in like relationship readings. The other day I was reading for someone with a relationship, and they were asking, you know, what they could do to their for their partner to be happier. And I said, Well, your partner wants a mother, so if you can treat him like a baby and like you're his mother, he's gonna be really happy. I'm not sure if you're gonna be happy, but that's what he wants. And the person cuts me off and says, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, he's fine, he's great, and we're fine. And he's like, Okay, fine. That's what I say, you know. I have you here as the Queen of Cups with a boob hanging out. It can't be any more maternal than that. Uh after a while, and we're talking about something completely different that also involves the partner. The person says, He had a really shitty childhood, lots of issues with his mother. And I was like, Didn't I sense this person is in desperate need for it for a mother figure? But then you know, you kind of don't, at least for me, you don't gloat and say, aha, got to be there. Uh you just go, you you nod. I usually I am of the school of nodding. It's like, oh, okay, hmm, interesting. But then you're on the back of my head, I'm like, why didn't these two things connect? Yeah. I know it's not glamorous if someone tells you you need to baby up your partner or your partner wants to be treated like a child or taken care of. I I know I'm sure that it's not the sexiest thing you've ever heard, or it it's not hashtag relationship goals. Uh but it is what it is. Um, you know, so it's kind of like that. So it's it's listening. We have to listen and we have to avoid to project because I think when we're reading cards, we're going to be thrown with a lot of situations and dynamics that sometimes are very close to our own. And there might be sometimes the that kind of like spark of like, oh, I'm gonna start making this all about myself. It's never about your it's never about you, it's always about them or the situation that they're putting in front of you. So I think these are two and and you don't pussyfoot about it. You know, if if someone asks you yes or no, you're gonna say yes or no. I know I know that people hate these kind of questions, but if they ask you a yes or no and if they're paying you, just give them yes or no.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

But if you just get the most brutal, honest answer, isn't it that they don't want to be wrong?

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yes, they want to. I have sometimes there's a there's a tradition in going to fortune tellers in in where I come from in Portugal. So if you talk to people, you're going to talk inevitably to someone who's either been to a witch or been to a card reader or been to some sort of divination. It it's very common. It's not something that people boast, but in conversation, it's gonna show up. So a lot of people, when they go into a reading, if they are if they are Portuguese, they want to test the reader. So they want like the first 30 minutes of the session to be about them and about the past. I usually tell them, you know, it's your money as I'm being I'm like Julia Roberts and pretty woman, I'm being paid by the hour, I can do whatever you want. But do you really want me to waste 30 minutes of your session telling you things that you already know of where you are in your life and why this has happened? And and sometimes they will say yes, and I'm like, okay, let's make it all about you. And they always want a grand epic story. It's never I lost my job because I was really not that competent or I didn't have the skills to advance in that job. It's always I lost that job because people hated me and they were bullying me. Sometimes it happens, you know. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but but people like these like odysseys where they are they sometimes are the savior, they sometimes are the victim. Sometimes they are the the abuser. When they're the abuser, they don't like being the abuser. Uh, but they usually go into this like the the drama triangle, and they just want to go in these circles. Sometimes in the same story, they're gonna be all three, they're gonna be both the victim and the savior, and uh and the abuser or the opposed. Brutal honesty sometimes I think leaves people sort of like disappointed if they come to me and I'm gonna say, if some if it's someone that I've never seen, I say, has someone referred to you or have you found me online? If someone says has someone that they came to me because their friend came to me or someone they know, I'm gonna say, no, I'm I I am extremely blunt. Not blunt to the point that I'm going to make fun of what you're going through, but I'm going to call a spade a spade. Because I think even when, and then we have to resort to different degrees of empathy, you deserve my respect. And if the situation you're going through is not optimal, you're going, you're going to need me to be professional and be respectful. But not create a story to validate what I'm I'm not the person you seek for validation. This is not the droid you're looking for if you want personal validation.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah, yeah, I think that's that.

SPEAKER_04 15:14

I also meant uh Marco, like like uh doodle truth, yeah, that it's one sided. But I I asked this question because you said, okay, they don't like this question, but then I think that you talk about readers in general, but they are maybe afraid of being wrong.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yes, that's I think the most uh the biggest reason why people avoid direct questions of yes or no, this or that. Yeah, it's because they are afraid of being wrong. And I think this is something you need to make peace with that no matter how talented we are, no matter how knowledgeable we are in our field, everyone's gonna have a bad day. Everyone's gonna have a bias of no, they're tired, or they just look at the card that they really like and they're going to miss the and they're going to miss it. I mean, even doctors sometimes get diagnosed wrong. So why wouldn't we? Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:05

I think more more as they would admit. Yes. Uh more than they would care to admit. I I I work in the medical field, so yeah, not as a doctor, but I often put them around the table, uh, and they real uh familiar context, so I know a lot of strange things.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

So I think I think we have to make peace with the fact that sometimes you're gonna be wrong, uh, and then own that we were wrong. I think for me, the most liberating moment for being allowing myself to be wrong was when I had uh classes with Camellia Ilias many years ago. And she's like, everyone, you know, everyone's just right 50-50. I was like, I was like, if this woman says 50-50, well, I have to be worried being right all the time. Uh and it's and it was really, really liberating. That kind of allowing yourself to be wrong. Uh, maybe the odds are you're not 50-50 or better than 50-50, but uh, I uh sometimes I will say this in the session, you know, odds are 50-50, especially when you're stretching time. For example, when we're making predictions for I usually don't do them, but people sometimes will don't. Will I ever get married? And then you start to go say, but are you dating? No, are you going out? No, are you asking your friends to meet someone? No, so it's like so the pizza guy is gonna deliver the pizza, you're gonna look flap, look him in the face, and it's you're gonna fall in love with the pizza guy, it's gonna be a story for the ages, they're gonna make a Hallmark movie about it. How can I answer, will I ever get married if the person in this point in time is doing nothing?

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Which is but maybe, maybe, and now I'm the devil's advocate. Maybe you say so, so you don't know what's behind that. And maybe you say so and they are not uh going out of the house, but now they are confident that they will marry in the end, and maybe now they dare to speak to someone. I don't know. Maybe so so you you never know what the ripple effect can be on something that you say.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I I had a story that you could find true love in the Kengood Isles at the supermarket, which never happened, until a friend of mine hooked up with a total stranger at the Ken Good store and ruined my start my story forever. So these things can happen, you know. Yeah, these things of like not looking for love and meeting someone and hitting it off, they can happen. And you can pull cards for am I ever gonna get married? And you can might get like a faint yes, or it's gonna take a long time, or not at the moment. But sometimes people I agree with with Bjorn when he says that people sometimes need a boost in their confidence of things will get better. And I don't know if you have these, but sometimes people will come and they'll ask. Good vibes only. Tell me the best stuff. Oh no, yeah, and I can't, and I've had instances where people just tell me I really need to know the best thing about this situation because they're so down in and and you then you kind of say the best thing that there is to say. So I agree with Bjorn that if you say yes, but but we I think we are reading probability and causality. So if the person at the moment is not doing anything, um odds are that it's gonna be more difficult. Yeah, or am I ever gonna get rich? I buy a lottery every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, but then I'm dealing with another set of odds.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

No, I actually like that too, because you brought up Camila, and we actually have an interview with her. So we uh we interviewed her a while ago and she was talking about what you were saying where you're wrong, because she did a reading that and she went back and looked, but it's about giving the person hope. But it gave the person hope for a little bit longer in the situation. It's actually really interesting how like that the cards can do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the sometimes we you know, we're fortune tellers, we speak in mysterious ways. We are sometimes agents to something bigger than than our own design.

SPEAKER_04 20:07

And we are helping them. And I think I so I I don't read cards anymore, but if I should do this nowadays, I would see it much more abstract because telling someone's fortune, maybe you know, because and I don't say that I did not do it back then, because somehow, if you are uh a professional cardaman for some kind of reason, I think it's logical, they see you out for being right. So yeah, it's it's it's really like top spot often. Yeah, but I also think when they ask you a question, will they ever marry? Then you somehow in your head have like a yeah, what what's the probability, you know? And we always do that some some kind of way, but maybe we should have the courage to let that really aside and be really like a cardamancer. So I don't think that that they would seek me out to uh somehow make a logical deduction on what probably is going to happen. So I don't think they could have been taught that by themselves, and maybe they should be open for the information that the cards give. And maybe I can be wrong given like a shot treatment where they do something, or maybe don't do something, but would be harmful for them. So maybe we can do something really creative and with other professions and creativity. If you make art or if you make something creative, while thinking, okay, what would people like to see or hear from my creations? But that's something yeah, we we should feel obligated to in regards to uh earning our money. But if you can really be so free that you make something creative for your own, I think that that can really make much impact. And if I would look back at doing cardmas, I would think I would do it more this way nowadays and give them like an experience. Experience. That's why they always say get like an experience. And maybe do be something much more theatrical than ever, you know. And that as a impression or an experience. Yeah, that that's something. What do you think about such concepts, Marco? And be brutally honest.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

I think it's always an experience when you go to the definer, right? You are in that moment, you know. Sometimes many of us now do it through Zoom. Uh like for I'm not gonna get people I don't know in my house and I don't have uh a studio. If I had a separate studio, I would. But I think it's always an experience. It's always there's that the those pregnant pauses and the moments where, especially with people who know cards, at least who know the iconography of cards. No, if if they're talking about their relationship and you kind of get, I don't know, emperor, tower, empress, and they know a little bit about cards, they're like, they're gonna be like, oh uh oh, uh oh. And you haven't even opened your mouth. And it's gonna, it's always an experience. There's always what's that person gonna say? Are they gonna say what I want them to say? Because I'm pretty sure that more than 90% of people who come to a reading have a set desire of the outcome of that reading. So that in itself creates an experience. Uh, when I was much younger, 20 years ago, I was asked to do fortune telling for a New Year's uh party. Uh I think it was the it's either the Hilton or the Sheraton music. And I was gonna travel the the following year, so I was like, I need money, sure. And so I was talking with the people from the venue, and they were like, Do you have a turban? Do you have a mustache? And it's like, I'm not gonna show up in like full drag makeup. Because I thought I was doing something really, you know, light. And and people are like drunk with champagne, and I and I thought, stupidly, I thought, that people weren't come to go, weren't them going to come with like these huge questions. How wrong was I, even as a diviner, we get it wrong. I'm there. I have a mother asking for uh son's cancer condition, where she asks point blank, is my son going to die? So, spoiler alert, I did say no to and he did not die. Oh, okay, yeah, which was good. I do not know what how what I how I would have phrased it if the answer wasn't so and I was in a tent and it was very, you know, they had the the I think the theatricality comes from the question, the moment the person asks the question. And uh I think there's a slight shift because we can be joking and laughing, it's like, oh you know, it's so and so I brought you here, blah blah blah. But the moment it starts, I think we're just like laser focused and it creates an experience. I I think people would be very entertained if we could make, I don't know, uh silverware flying around and lights flickering, you know, like in the seances and in the 19th century where it was all about the show. But I think in itself, uh reading done right is always very immersive because there's that from the moment the person is shuffling, and there are people who pray while they're shuffling, or they repeat the question over and over again, there's this kind of like in ritual that creates the event in itself, I think. We could make it 4D, where like, oh, you know, be careful with your car, and then the you know, the chair is gonna shake and people are gonna be like, oh my god, that was amazing. The spirits were were awesome. But I think it is, it's always an experience. And I think if you took back card reading again, because I I had indirectly a few classes with you, Bjorn, from the World Divination Association. So I know you also do hypnotherapy, right? Uh that's what you do right now. And uh and I think it's always to me, because I remember being very, very young and going with my mother, you know, to the ye old uh card reader, and she was a woman who had she was very pale, she wore red lipstick, gaudy blue eyeshadow, and she had blonde hair, was always like in a bun, very messy. So the woman in itself was an experience. But the moment she had she had a very tiny, you know, those tiny decks, those tiny playing card decks. She had one of those, and the moment she started, you know, shuffling, I was like, oh my god. So to me, that was the experience to just seeing and just to see her lay some for me at the time that were abstract figures, you know, just clubs and spades and you know, hearts and so on and so forth on the table, and started telling me things. Not at the age of seven, I started, she started reading to me when I was 15, but for me it was like intense, you know, because it's about decoding a language that the other person isn't privy to. It's like you're having a conversation and you're translating something that is right in front of you, but that the other person can't read or can't fully read or can't fully understand.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

Yeah, a whole world of desires is in her mind, so to say. Yeah, I think that you fell in love with the atmosphere there.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:16

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

And she had, you know, she had uh it was a very small office and it smelled musty and of old perfume. So she had the uh I think if if it were me, it would be a lot more sterile because I like white and light and things, but uh for practicality purposes. But for me, that was the magic. The moment she started shuffling for me was magic.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Uh uh.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

It was a show.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

I love that. That's amazing. Because you never think about the shuffling part, it's just something that starts off every session no matter what.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

I would love to be a good shuffler, you know, those people who do these things, and no, never. I am just this the the stupidest shuffler in you know in existence. And sometimes I get frustrated because you shuffle and shuffle and shuffle and you need to get the same cards over and over again.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

No, yeah, yeah, no. And no, that's no, you're good, you're probably better than me. I did a thing this weekend where I was shuffling cards and I shuffled them straight onto the floor three times, and then I'm just down there picking up my cards, so I look like an idiot, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

That has to be on occasion.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

So you're not alone in that extreme. Show mosco on. Show musgo on. I have I have a deck that I like very much, which is a set of Japanese playing cards called and they're and the word for them is from the Portuguese. So Portuguese cards is carta, and so in Japanese it's carta. And so they are like this. So beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

If you move it over just a little bit, yep, they're right perfect.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Oh but they're very thick, it's a very thick kind of part stock. And whenever I feel like I want to read with this card and I'm shuffling, half the times they're gonna fall on the floor because they're so the the you know, the width is so thick, yeah, that it makes shuffling a little bit more cumbersome. I love the size of them, they're so cute. Yeah, they're they're very tiny and cute, but basically they're just like playing cards, but they have flowers uh for for the for the pip symbols, you know, they have cherry blossoms for what is it called? They're they're always called different things in many countries. Diamonds, for example.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Um and you know, plum flowers for summer and so on and so forth, and wisteria's and and things. So the the minute the minute you lock, but and they have the number of flowers according to the number, like for example, here these are nine, and you're gonna find nine flowers here.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Oh, I like that. That's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

They are. Um I think I kickstart. I I have to stay away from Kickstarter because I like take Morgan with you. Yeah, I like old decks and you know, representations or or things about old decks, and if and if they have it, I know the cardstock is gonna be a bit off and that I'm not gonna like, or they're they're gonna be too big. I don't know why sometimes the creators think that the cards have to be like this. And you're like, but I want to lay out 20 in my table. That's what the people have.

SPEAKER_04 30:31

That's that's for experts, such cards.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah, yeah. Um and I always fall for it. I'm like, oh my god, this is gonna be the deck. I'm gonna love this deck. And then I buy it, I use it four or five times, and then it's in my shelf somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

Yeah, I'm I was actually just telling him that I cannot go into Kickstarter because I went on Kickstarter. I went on Kickstarter to buy Andrea's new deck, and I'm like, just buy the deck, just buy the deck, six decks later, you know?

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Like online shopping seems like we're like playing with it's not real money.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

You know, we're just clicking buttons. Yeah, exactly. Especially with Kickstarter, because it's not gone right away. Your money only comes out if they're successful, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Yeah, they always are. I've fallen, you know, I've fallen through that trap many times. So now I just don't go there.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Yes, exactly. I'm yeah, I was just saying that the exact same way. Uh but but it's it's because they do the um because you know you're saying on your thing that and from that um the witching hour newsletter, you're practicing witch. So do you combine that in your practice as well?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Um no, I'm so I am an Umbanda practitioner. Oh and um and I keep my card reading from my Umbanda practice separately. Okay. They are there is I'm probably you know, not gonna get canceled, but maybe some some people might be disappointed. There is no at least no conscious spiritual side to the practice of reading cards. It's to me it it's about technique, it's about paying attention. And when you're practicing, in in my case, as an Umbanda practitioner, it's completely different. So if you come to me in Umbanda session and you speak to me or through an entity that I am channeling, you're going to have sometimes different answers than if you were to come to me to read your cards. And I've talked to my high priestess about it, and I said, I noticed that I am not as blunt. And she's like, Well, first it's not you. She's equally as blunt. So like, first it's not you. And second, usually I've seen you read and you just say whatever you need to say. And sometimes when other beings are in play, they will say what the person is ready to hear, or or what the person is willing to accept, or what could help that person transition or go into action. When I'm reading cards, I usually don't filter because you're coming for a service. So I'm gonna give you that that kind of service. When I was a teenager, yes, I did the incense thing and I kept the decks, and I'm not animistic. People are like, Don't touch my deck, and I'm like, Why not? It's a piece of paper, just touch my deck, whatever you know. Take a deck, don't read with it, play with it, it just don't ruin it. Um and I have and I think you can be animistic with decks, and you can sort of treat them as other beings as well. I just don't do that. So to me, it's two separate practices.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

I like that though, because I agree with that that cardmancy card reading is not like religious, it's not spiritual, it is what it is. It's that guidance, you know what I mean? It's that getting the information. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

And I think it has to do a lot with the culture that I, you know, but I come from. People usually well nowadays younger people do. They're gonna go like, oh, you know, uh, what do my what does my higher being want me to know? But if you take like 30 years ago, people wouldn't come for that. They were gonna be like, is my husband cheating on me? Did that person put a hex on me? Does my uh does my daughter-in-law really hate my guts? That was usually the questions that people ask, very practical questions about usually about either love or work or money or health, or things that would give them pain or that cause them pain. And that's the things that people come to to the cards, and even people who come with a whole layer of spirituality of like my higher beings or my guides or whatever, it's always gonna be connected to these four or five focal points. How they feel, how they relate, what do they build, what do they create, what do they attain socially, economically. Because at the end of the day, yes, we are, you know, people might be on a spiritual quest to better themselves, but they still have to pay rent, they have to buy groceries, they have to take their kids to school, yeah, they have to survive. So I'm very pragmatic. Not that I couldn't do a reading about that, but usually people don't come to me for those. So, you know, and I think to each his own, everyone has their audience and everyone has their their specialty and what in what they're good at, and I just don't want to to be doing something that some maybe someone someone else does it a lot better than me and is a lot more candid and a lot more thoughtful. But I think it's cultural impact on me and and uh the you know the rules of society that I that I grew up with.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

That's that makes sense. But then of course people are coming to you though because they love your readings and your style of it and how you're presenting it, versus someone who just wants big great answers and they're gonna everything's gonna be okay, even though you know the house is burning down around them.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Yesterday I had I had uh dinner with a few friends, and I have a friend who he teaches computer sciences uh at a high school, and he will do a reading to me once or twice a year. And sometimes I will give him answers that don't make absolutely no sense. So he was involved in a in a court case involving a dispute of uh an inheritance, and he asked me like last year in November, he asked, Is it gonna be over? And I said, Well, in the court case, yes, but I don't choose I don't see you getting money yet. And he's like, How can that be? Because when the court settles the dispute, the money's gonna be. And I say, I'm sorry, I just don't see money. There are no money cards. I I don't have any money cards, but I do have them. The you know, it's really clear to me that this is going to be uh resolved as per you know for litigation. And so he was like, he shrugged at a certain point because he's like, that doesn't make any sense. And I said, Well, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know. Sometimes even when people ask me for health advice, I'll obey like I'm going to preface this by saying I am not a doctor and you should go to your doctor. And yesterday we were having dinner, and he said, funny thing, you were right in December, so and so uh the thing got settled. I won the case. We're almost in March, and I still don't have my money because the banks want documentation of bloody blood. And I was like, No, and I was like, Oh, I'm sorry that you still don't have what you really want. He was like, No, I just want to tell you, you were you were right. And I I didn't think that it's gonna be a bureaucracy about the bank, but and he was laughing. He was just laughing, and I think that's why he who is a bit of a cynic comes at least once a year to see how things are going.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Yeah, and that must be nice though, because even though he is like that, he gets that's validation, you know what I mean? That's very validating.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

I think he uh he appreciates the the bluntness and uh and the way that I communicate, and that I don't talk in like spiritual jargon. Yes, yeah, and and I think for some people that is really important. Um and but I think for him it's one of the things that he likes. That uh he's like, Oh, you're not gonna talk about blah blah blah that I'm reaching my Saturn uh return, because then I'm gonna have to ask what Saturn is and why is it returning, why couldn't it stay? But I I do like I do like reading for skeptics. I I read many, many years ago for a friend who to this day is uh is a skeptic, and he says, and he asked me Bjorn, will I ever gonna get married? And at the time, I think it was the late 90s, I told them, yes, but there's like this huge ocean between you, and you're really far apart, so it's gonna take a lot of time. His wife is from Brazil, and she came four years later, and they had they had not met when we had the reading. So, and he was like, I can explain many things, I cannot explain that. And he says, So now I'm gonna say you just had a stroke of luck and you were inspired.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

And I laughed, and I laughed, and I said, if that makes you happy, fool, it doesn't offend me.

SPEAKER_04 39:00

I don't yeah, no, but but in the end, uh a real skeptic wouldn't listen at all.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

But he did listen, and and he said, and I turned to him and I said, You didn't believe, but you did ask the question. That that thing was was uh bothering me. And and I and I think the worst believers are the believers sometimes that we're skeptics because the the moment that they cross the line they they border on fanaticism and things like that. It's like people who quit drinking, you know, that they were really into partying and drinking, and the minute the minute they become sober, everyone has to become sober. Yeah, so they go into opposites. Uh interesting.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_04 39:42

I think that on a more philosophical level, Marco, what would be, according to you, the most healthy way to look to the phenomena of cardemancy?

SPEAKER_01 39:53

I think it's getting the perspective of someone who is not involved with your issue. And the fact that that person is so detached from whatever ails you and that you're going through. And most card readers, I wouldn't I wouldn't say all of them because I know some that do sometimes don't like to read from themselves. They go to other card readers, you know, like doctors sometimes who have to go to other other doctors to to have that thing. So it's kind of like that detachment and that we are not we are not engaged with the outcome, whatever it is. We can feel empathy or joy or whatever for the person that is in front of us, but we have nothing to gain. You have nothing to gain if that person's marriage is gonna succeed or not. So you're going to tell it like you see it. Yeah. And sometimes we are so wrapped up in in what's going on in our in our lives, in our chaos, in our feelings. I remember I was taught very, very early on. Oh, you can't read for people who are related to you. But the person didn't tell me why. So I was like, is it is this a great taboo? Is this something that and so being a teenager and being rebellious, what did I do? I did exactly the opposite thing that they told me not to do. So I read for my three-month-old nephew who was going to get surgery, and I wanted to know how it went. Out came the tower card, and I was completely petrified because I lost complete objectivity, because it was my nephew, and because it was a baby, and because it was all that. Had I gone to someone else, the person, yes, they could feel uh they could care about the situation, they could feel for it, but they have nothing to gain. So they could be objective and they could be. I think it has to do with detachment. And I think what makes a great reader is to be completely detached detached of their ego, of their projections, of their assumptions. Because sometimes, I don't, and I'm sure this happened with you too. Someone asks you a question, and you're like, you know, fudge that if that's gonna happen, that's we're gonna happen. And then the cards say yes. Like, how is this gonna happen? But if you let go of what is a preconception of what you think things will go, then you will do your job and you'll read the cards right. And sometimes it happens completely the opposite way that we thought it was gonna happen, and it's fine. And I think it need it grants a certain personal detachment from the situation, from the outcome. And if I'm really, really involved in something in my own life that I know that I can't be objective, I'm not gonna read for you. Because I know that my brain is going to create narratives that are going to suit either what I desire or what I fear, and I have to put on my uh big big witch breeches on uh and say, you know, I am not at my best uh mentally to read for this for me right now. Sometimes I can read for myself with no problem. Like I had a situation at a past uh at a former workplace that I had that the shit really hit the fan, and I was like, well, what's it gonna happen? And I threw out um justice, devil, and judgment. And I and I shrugged and I said, Well, okay, I'm gonna have a disciplinary hearing. And that's exactly what happened. The nastiest disciplinary hearing that I could have involving lawyers, involving a lot of things, that it was completely draining, it was horrible. But since I was not happy where I was, and I couldn't give two figs about what was gonna happen, if I was gonna lose my job or not lose my job, I was able to look at it and say, Oh, maybe if I were attached to the idea of keeping that job, I would be like, oh, there was someone there who really hates me and it's going to put me to the test. And uh, and but things are gonna be fair for me because it starts with judgment, with justice. Well, you know, justice followed by the devil usually isn't that very nice of justice uh at all. But I think it has to do with that, it has to do with not desire not having a desire or fear for the outcome.

SPEAKER_04 43:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's that's for you the the the context that you somehow try to work in.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

I definitely agree. That's good. That is good advice too. For people who are starting out like learning the cards, you know.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

And I think for people who are starting out reading the cards, whenever I whenever I teach, uh I I always tell students first I do not teach talent. I teach technique, whether you like it or not. I'm not gonna just because you had a class with me, you're not gonna become the best card reader in in the whole wide world unless you practice and you read for everything. And am I gonna get that Amazon package today? Is that thing gonna happen? Uh, how is my day gonna go? Because if we look for omens, you're gonna always find an omen because our brain is wired to look for. I had an exercise many years ago where the task was actually go out and you're going to see an omen. And the omen is going to be something really, really completely out of the blue that you can't. There's there can't be a no logical way why that happened at that moment. So I, you know, I got breast, you know, I put my perfume on, uh, blah blah get out of the house. And I was like, fine, just give me that omen. So Lisbon has weather very much like New York, it's a little bit more uh sunnier than Belgium, but you know, it's not tropical. Well, you know, with climate change these days, I don't know. But at that time, no. And I saw a whole band of parrots, of blue and red parrots, but there were 30 of them in the sky flying above me. And I was like, where the hell did these parrots come from? No, I'm gonna be it's gonna be anticlimatic and say I did not understand the omen, but I did get an omen because it was so completely idiotic, it was so completely out of the realm of normality of my day to see 30 parrots going through the skies in shades of red and blue, and you're like, I am not in Brazil. I am not in the this is not probably someone who was transporting these animals, how do I think someone who had a collection, or a lot of these animals had an accident and they flew away. So there's a logical way why you know spirit didn't conjure a portal to make open, but I did get my omen. So I always tell if you if you look for something, you you're sure gonna find it. Like I know there are people who uh set themselves to look for cards in the street or when and they will find lots of cards. I never find cards, never why because I do not look for them, because I I'm sure that if I put it in my mind that I'm like, I'm going to start seeing cards in the middle of the street out of nowhere, I would start finding them. My brain would be wired, and and maybe uh Bjorn could help us with the you know with the psychological self-hypnosis aspect of this, because it's kind of like a self-enchantment or a self-hypnosis. I am going to see an um and I am going to find this when you actually did.

SPEAKER_04 46:50

Yeah, I don't know how this works, you know. I I can't take your blood and see other sheep where you are at, but it seems the same like uh confirmation bias. If you buy like a grey Mercedes bands, and then all of a sudden you see uh all the same uh gray Mercedes bands because and they have been there for always. Yeah, but if it's it seems like if it's a part of your focus or a part of your world, then you somehow recognize, and that's not woo-woo, even. Uh no, it that's something I I see each day like uh the same digits, you know, uh 2020, uh 2121 on my clock. Uh yeah, so that's okay. As you know, in Europe it's often like 21 hours, 22 hours for the people from America, it's like 9 p.m. But that's never 9-9, that's in the morning here. But it's always like the same digits, you know, and then I say, okay, but what's happening here? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's that's the same, I think. It's confirmation bias, and where your followers goes, uh yeah, that's something powerful, but I don't know how it works. Yeah, it's interesting. We still have a lot to learn about how our brain works and how yeah, or maybe not, and just um experience it. Because when when you uh were saying that what that you saw all those uh those beautiful birds on top of you, that for some kind of reason I am then thinking on a mystical experience, you know, and a mystical experience is all except rational, it's just the experience on its own, and then maybe what does awaken of or what gets awakened by this? What thoughts, what feelings, or what uh perspectives, you know.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

I think maybe we make it too difficult. I don't know. And I enjoyed it, you know. To this day, I don't think I've ever got a more exotic omen. But for example, I remember when I was 19 and I took my driver's license, which I know that for the US it's kind of really late to take your driver's license, but we can only take it when we're 18. And what and I even was so lazy that I was like, I don't know. So it's college there. And so I really sucked at driving, and I was gonna have my final driver's exam that the following day, and I had a mystical teacher, and I I talked to her and I said, I I it's gonna I'm gonna fail fail, and it's awful because I don't want to do it again. And she looks at me and she says, You are not gonna fail. And tomorrow morning, when you're going to the exam place, you're gonna know that whatever happens, you're not gonna, you're not going to fail. And I said, but how? How do I know this? You know, 19 stupid, uh still still drunk on hormones of adolescent. Uh, and and she's like, just go and just go to sleep, uh, rest and go and take your exam. So when we are going to the exam place, we were taking a road that was by the sea. So we have a sea to our right, and sometimes it gets, you know, has a little bit of traffic, and we stop. And the moment we stop, like a whole swarm of white butterflies comes out from the beach and envelops the car, and in traffic follows the car. And everyone's like, Oh my god, I never saw this. And I was like, I'm going to pass the exam. I am going to have my driver's license. My exam was horrible. The instructor insulted me to no end, saying that I was an idiot and I should never get a driver's license.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

And then at a point he says, I am going to pass you because I never want to see your guts in front of me ever again. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

And I was like, Okay, so he insulted me for 10 minutes, but I still pass, right? So maybe the everyone that saw my exam, because there's a rule in Portugal that if the instructor or the examiner uses the brakes on their side while you're doing the exam, you know, you're you're flight. And he did that on my exam at least twice. So everyone that came with me was like, everyone passed, but they had a very somber face. They're like, oh, poor Marco, you know, because I was the last one. And I was like, why are you all looking so sad? I got my license. And to this day, these people believe that I actually bribed the guy to get my bribe license. But I did get like, and I did exactly what Jordan said was someone told me you're gonna ace it, you're gonna pass, and you're gonna know why you're gonna pass, and then these butterflies come out of nowhere, and I said, and I said to myself, I am going to pass in at that moment, and I think this is the true power of magic, is when you go into that mind zone where there is no doubt in your mind that something is going to happen. And it happens because uh, like for example, if someone comes to me and says, Oh, I did a ritual, how's it gonna go? And I'm like, Oh, if you're gonna come on that with that attitude, it's not gonna go great. Um but if you put if you're in that zone in that flow state, like Bjorn said, it happens, and it just for example, I remember being very young, wanting to go to the US. It was 1998, so we didn't have high-speed internet, and we didn't, I didn't have a cell phone, I didn't have a cell phone of my own. And I thought, parents are never gonna say yes, but I I want to go, and I am going to go. And I went to my parents and I remember it to this day, and I go and I said, Well, you know, there's a convention, and I I'm going there, and people want to go there because they want to know how's the experience on this side of Europe. And my father just goes blase in and he's like, and it's in the US, and it's someone that it's someone that I've met on the internet that I've never seen in my life. And my father's like, um Yeah, call the travel agent in the morning, have them arranged, see what papers he needs. And I thought, what? But I really it was, and to this day, I think it was my wish that I was like, I am going to go. And so it it I made it so.

SPEAKER_04 53:04

And it was a manifestation.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

So and it wasn't, I could have said, I could have embellished this story and say, that night in my bedroom, I draw a circle in chalk, and I did this, and you know, killed a pigeon and whatever. It would be a lot more dramatic to any future.

SPEAKER_03 53:24

No, I love that. I love the fact that you say that like that. You could say these things, but you're staying true to yourself, and that's the real magic because that's what made you as magical as you are today.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

I I think so. It's the fact that uh there is no doubt in my mind that magic exists and that we uh are allowed to a certain extent, you know. We are not the X-Men or the Avengers or you know, the that we can make things. I don't know, maybe a monk in Tibet can make things float and fly. And because all he does is pray and and meditate and and is in a in a completely different state of non-attachment that I am not. Well, what is magic? And sometimes people forget uh too much.

SPEAKER_04 54:04

What would be the best uh uh scientifically description of magic? Placebo.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Hey, but it works, right? Um, my my grandmother she had an instance when I was very, very young, and she was very nervous, and and I picked them some sweeteners, and you know, this little tablet is in Portugal, they're in little tablets, and I said, Grandma, take these, their mom, tranquilizers, you're gonna be you're gonna feel great because you're really, really excited. And she took it and she was like, I'm feeling so much better. And what I gave her was aspartame. Yeah, maybe that would have killed her 15 years later. I don't know. Uh but and and and and then she sometimes would say, Oh, you know, this is happening. Do you have do you know if your mother still has those pills? And I would, you know, I would play the magic. I would say, yes, Norma, yeah, let me get one of those. And I was like, Do you want two? Because maybe two. Today is a two-day. And I think she would have peace of mind because she believed fully that those things were gonna give her peace of mind, and that in itself is oh yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 55:12

That's the story what I'm what I often tell. So I was always like in martial arts, and I'm still like a coach on doing uh kickboxing MMA. Uh and once I had this this fighter, and he somehow uh well at the stupid idea that he uh uh got aggressive from pineapple. So he had those little thin boxes, you know, very uh that's that's that's that's really dirty. So and he ate that. And so I uh now I'm really aggressive, and now I'm gonna win my fight and all that. So I I was thinking, yeah, what what what kind of rubbish is this? But I think I have to work with that. This was my first day in doing things with magic and hypnotherapy. So I took some Celtic sea salt and I say, okay, now we do some Celtic sea salt uh on it, and you have now the the the best electrolyte you can get, you know. It was like really buzzing, you know, it was really like magic some and some kind of reason because you really believe that, you know. But there's this problem. If you did not have that pineapple, you have like a problem. So yeah, so that's always like a double-edged to it. Yeah, it works. Yeah, like I'm sure it works.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

I love that. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 56:23

Yeah, and um the from the moment he ate that, he it became like some more like yeah, like in those comic books, like like a superhero. Can you imagine? And we he really needed that. And that's totally homework. Let's be honest. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

I think there's a whole I think there's a whole line of coaching, like mentally, to coach people who are into competitive sports, and that itself involves a bit of pizza math, but making them believe, you know. I I wished I'd I'd care about soccer because it's a great sport here to say something about you know one of one of the biggest soccer players to this day, uh Ronaldo, but I I have no knowledge and no interest, so I can't say. But it it appears I think that he does like trains in in a black room where they like throw balls at him and he hits the ball, and it's like he constantly hits the ball, and it's very strict in his regimen, so that's probably kind of like a superpower in itself. Yeah, I maybe I may be not correct because uh I have no, you know, it's it's one of the big uh disappointments they give my father of the years is that I have no interest in soccer whatsoever. Which for a European person is bad because you run out of things to you run out of things to say at the water cooler. I'm not gonna say, well, have you seen my new deck when I go to my mundane work? Do you like this new deck? People are gonna be like that's very niche.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

It's too niche.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Don't change, don't be like oh, oh, everyone is uh no, no, no. I have a stellion and Aquarius, so I'm gonna be I'm gonna be possessing my own runs until the day I die. Sadly, I do not obsessed with aliens as the memes in the internet say Aquarians are, but you know.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

Aquarius son, seventh house. I know people say that all the time from a different planet.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Which is which is not wrong. I I agree because if you look at at Ganymedes, the poor guy was gorgeous, gets kidnapped by a deity, becomes the deity servant, and does whatever he does with the deity, that the deity does so well with so many people only in mythology, and then he is a mortal who's not a mortal if he goes back to other mortals, but he is not a god, so he's not a deity, so he doesn't belong anywhere, and I think this is the true essence of Aquarius. We just do not belong.

SPEAKER_03 58:45

I always, as an Aquarius, yeah, I always feel that way. Like, and I've traveled all over because I've traveled every two years, I've moved every two years my whole life, and even a year, and yeah, you just never feel yeah, that connection to anything. It's interesting though, because it definitely puts you apart, you know?

SPEAKER_01 59:04

It is, and and sometimes I usually make fun and say, you know, our Aquarius aren't that nice people because we're ruled by a malefa, so by a but by a horrible, horrible planet that hates me. Uh sometimes they're like, oh, aquarians are all about community and belong in other people. And I'm like, which aquarians? I do not know a single textbook Aquarian that is like, I love people. No, I hate people. And that's usually how I would describe myself to my teams when when I when I manage teams, I would be like, hi, I'm Marco, I hate people. And I'm going to do my job to the best of my ability. So and I think it's not, and people would be like, how can that person say hates people? I hate them the banal things that people bring that they think that I need to know, I do not need to know, I do not care. It's not that I'm not gonna be empathetic about it. I mean, if you come to me and you say, you know, my aunt died, I'm gonna say, you know, I'm sorry, and I'm really genuinely sorry that a relative passed away, but I'm not gonna be your best friend just because your aunt died. Again, this is not the droid you're looking for, if that's what you want.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:14

Yeah. But but would that be beneficial? Would that be beneficial in the end? I don't think so. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

I really don't think so. Um to create, and I think sometimes people create these parasocial relationships without realizing that they're parasocial, yeah, at workplaces that kind of is not to the it's like, oh, we're all friends because we all work at the same place and we see each other for like eight or nine hours on end. But when we go away, do we really are friends? Because usually when I leave a company, I'm gonna leave like without one or two people that I'm gonna stay in touch. And it's not that I didn't like these other people, it's that the other people don't have anything to do with me. That's fine. And I was in in that people's uh line of sight and existence for the amount of time that I worked there, and it's completely fine that it was that way. Okay, and I don't I'm not seven years old, and I'm not at uh I'm not at kindergarten was like we're gonna be friends forever. No, it's not gonna happen that way.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:13

But these are these are constructions we make, these are constructions we make, but all masculine giving everyone the idea that you are a good friend and that you bring like comfort and all that. So we do a lot of setting up illusions.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

Yes, I think so. We we are different people every day for all the different people we know. We're not gonna behave exactly the same way to every single person that we we come across. Yeah, because that is in our nature is to adapt and to and to confirm some sort some sort of society, uh societal rule that dictates, you know, I can't be that we we can't always be that honest with uh with our bosses. They don't pay, they don't want us to be honest. No matter how much they tell us that they're honest, if we think they're full of shit and that that that idea is awful, they don't want to listen to that. And you don't say that because you have a certain instinct for self-preservation.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:19

But can we can can we take 100% honesty? I don't think anyone no, I don't think I didn't ever experience it, so 100%. Well, I I don't know if we if we could bear that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

It was it that's funny that you say that because one time I was at work and I had someone who worked with me. And she would call me boss for for for shit and wiggles, and she would say, Boss, you can't say every single thing that goes through your head, you know? And I was like, Anna, I don't say every single thing that goes through my head. I and she's like, Oh no, you do, you're not even aware. And I was like, Okay, let's play a game. I am going to tell you every single thing that I think from this moment on, and you will tell me when that's enough. It it didn't last two hours, and she's like, You have a huge filter, you are so controlled. She never told me that again. And sometimes people say, Oh, there he goes, just saying everything that goes to his head. She's like, he is not, he is not. But I don't think I could, you know, be that persona forever for every single day in my life, because that would I think that would wear me out and that would be of no service. And also, who asked for my a hundred percent honesty? No one asked. So if no one asked, I just I will shut up and just sometimes you just shrug, you know. You have you have that, I don't know, you you probably have this experience everyone has, which is you have that friend with that significant other that you hate. You can't stand, but they're really happy with them, so it seems. And sometimes they broke up, they break up, and and you're like, I never have to see that person again. And then they get back together. What are you gonna say is the biggest mistake you've ever done in your life? No, you're just gonna shrug and say, How how nice. Are you sure that's what you want? Are you really sure that the person makes you happy? Uh but but they didn't ask for it, they didn't ask for you. Sometimes, even when they do ask, they they're not asking, they don't want to know. Because sometimes they know the answer, but they want you to reply in a completely different way because that's their hope. And that, and you find that going back to cards, you you find that again, the person most of the times knows the answer when it is about interpersonal relationships, you know. Um and but they are they have like this flicker of hope that you are going to see uh that you're going to say something that is not what they what they expect. You know, if the card, if the card person said it, uh that must be that means it must be true. Um I think that's in human relationships, no one wants us to be fully honest. I don't think so. Not even I want people to be fully honest. Well, sometimes I'm full of shit or I have some stupid idea, and I don't want you to be fully honest.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:20

Yeah, no, I that that's self-awareness. So I know it's like we're into morality and ethics.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:29

Yeah, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

I know. Um I think morality and ethics in in card reading is funny because sometimes you will hear this a a true card reader will not read for third party issues. And I'm there and I listen to this and I'm like, What the fudge am I going to read for then?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

Because everything is a third party issue.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:54

But but that's framing a true card reader, Fray, will not do this. So I'm like, block the L three.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

And and I wouldn't sometimes see people make those Instagram reels where they're like. If you want these types of readings, don't come for me. And sometimes I want just to and sometimes I comment. Come to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

I will gossip about and I will tell you if you're going to have sex with your next door neighbor.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:22

And if you're there will be cuing. There will be cueing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

I will do that. Sometimes the person just wants to know if that hot dude in 4B is into them and if they're gonna have the sex with them. And that's fine because that's at the moment that is the most uh anguish or burning question that they can. Yes. And it's fine. I don't believe I don't judge questions. Sometimes I will say, if you ask me how will I kill my mother-in-law and not you know, uh and get away with it. I could hypothetically answer, but maybe I will not. So maybe there will be what I I would draw a line. But um I think we can ask we can answer everything that has that is in front of us, and you can say what is in front of us. And I think the person that comes to us um does not is not paying to feel judged or preconceived. Whatever I think of their life choices of what they did that brought them to this state in time is none of my business. I did and also that I think is also what makes a good card read. It's no judgment. The question is the question. You don't care if her husband is the same old alcoholic who beats them up and spends all the money, and you think that they should be better off doing their that's not relevant. That's not relevant. That is that is not my job. I am and I also have and and people who call uh card reading therapy. I also kind of like it irks me a little bit because we are not therapist. At least I am not a therapist. I am a fortune teller, I am a soothsayer, I am going to say some shit about what's gonna happen, and woohoo, you know, I am not gonna give you therapy. If you need therapy, you maybe you should not go into. And I have said in sessions, I think you should see a therapist. Yeah, I think you should speak to a profession, a mental health profession who can give you perspective and tools to overcome what you're going through.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:21

Yeah, you're right. But though, you know, yeah, you're right, 100%. But you have to be aware of the fact that you can say something that you read in your cards that can have really a therapeutical effect.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:32

So you you're not a therapist, but you can do something therapeutical without you even uh for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:39

I agree. We can sometimes say things to people that will have a huge impact on their lives and that will bring enormous amounts of change, but we are not playing therapy. I don't think it's our role. But but I agree, it can be it can be therapeutic and coming to someone that you do not know.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:04

So yeah, but what's therapy? What is therapy? Yeah, what is therapy? I I think therapy is that what works. That what works, that what gives a solution to your problem is therapy.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:15

I I had therapy many years ago, and one of the questions at the beginning, I thought I was gonna hate my therapist. I think everyone at the beginning thinks they're gonna hate my therapist. And the person said, the therapist said, Don't you have friends that you could talk in about so and so? And I looked at her and I said, If I wanted to hear things that would make me feel good, I would go to my friends. That's not why I'm in therapy. I need help for this and this. Yeah, so I'm not looking for a friend. Uh, and we would have laughs because I'm you know, I I think erroneously that I'm funny. So I would make jokes and she would laugh, and and we would have some breakthroughs and sessions. But I never in my head created this narrative that this person was my friend. She was not. She was doing her job and and she helped me doing her job. But someone who does a divinatory practice and calls it or or puts it in the same well as conventional therapy, you know, uh I think it could be dangerous to me because you can sometimes deal with things that are very, very complicated. And no matter how, you know, the the the road to hell is paved with good intentions, no matter how much we think we can help someone, sometimes it's not in our skill set. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:32

But I was just saying don't underestimate what you can open up with people, you know. I a broad perspective on what actually therapy does, because that's nowadays my work, and I do so many things outside of the box that really open up with people, you know. Work with people doing uh boxing work, you know, and that can even be therapeutic, like people they where you somehow uh ramp it up, you know, give them uh something to work for, and they start like crying for half an hour or mathing half an hour. You see, and they've I I I've not been laughing for like a year. So I see I have a broad perspective on that. So never never underestimate what you can do, but you are right. If you need therapy, go to uh a therapist if you need a doctor. I always if you have like an exploded appendix that they don't come to your table but go to the emergency.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:23

So if they're lucky to make it to the emergency, yeah, yeah, yeah, for those things.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:33

So so you would be an advocate for absolute free speech, Marco. Yes, provoking questions, yeah. I like provoking questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:41

I like and I like those questions that kind of like give you that make you ill at ease when you're not at ease with the thing that was asked about. So another story was I was giving a reading one where the person starts with, are we really mind, body, and soul? So, okay. Uh cart said yes. It was it was Lenormand, I think it was the woman, the woman, the three and the son, I believe. Yeah. So yeah, sure. And to to what she believed it was mind, body, and soul, and I said yes. The second question out of the out of the was I sexually assaulted when I was four years old. And I was like, oh my god, how do how do we come from this, from this woo-woo talk of souls and things and mind and to such a horrific thing that happened. And I was shuffling my cards, and here I was with my bias. I was like, please let this person not have them had nothing happen to her, because I I I am not equipped to deal with saying this. And I think many card readers should be aware of the responsibility that we have of the impact we create on other people's lives by what we say, good or bad. Also, spoilers according to my cards, she was not assaulted.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:05

Um good good, good.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:08

She probably just saw a relative naked and it stuck in her head when she was very, very young. There was a huge tower, so I was like, oh, phallus, you know, dick. The dick in the leather shows up, but sometimes, and we need to be aware that whatever we say to someone has an impact, can change their lives, can be a therapeutic moment, like like the both of you said, and can provoke something. You know, people make decisions on what we tell them. And I think we should be very responsible and ethical on what we're doing. You know, I'm I might be joking and nonchalant about talking about things, but I take it very seriously in the sense of this is going to have an impact on on someone. Because they're they're opening up to you, they're sharing maybe fragilities that they usually do not share with other people because they do not know you most of the time, or they have no uh emotional connection to you. So even if you judgment or they're afraid of judgment, that they're not you're not a part. It's not someone that you're gonna see at the supermarket that's gonna look you at the right eyes like, oh, you're cheating on your husband. I know, because I saw you in the cards. So that's not gonna happen, and they're and they feel free, and we need to respect that and be ethical about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:22

It's a service, it's it's a service. It is, it is, you know, and you also have to think if they could know it, yeah. Probably they often know it, but in order to have a maybe like an alternative opinion, they have to consult you or whoever they think could provide them. Yeah, because yeah, often those people who who are sitting in front of you, they don't they want to get a grip on something that they don't have yet. Yes, I think that's sure, yeah. So whenever you can provide an answer on that, maybe, and that goes even further than right or wrong, I think that yeah, you can give them merit anyway. And maybe the answer is not what they would expect it, but maybe that is the answer that is necessary to open something up. But then at the same time that I'm saying this, because that's that's why where I somehow lost interest, I was somewhat disappointed by cars. Then I say, Okay, but am I now filling in the blanks that cars cannot do for me, or something like that? Do I give them too much credit? So that was always like in my head. So, how do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:26

Um, can you can you rephrase that? Because I'm gonna be I want to be sure that I got it right.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:31

So then you've got for some kind of reason I think uh yeah that an answer is like a merit anyway, if it comes from the cars, because they can consult before an answer for the cards. Can they make it work? Yeah, that's up to them. But that's one side of the thing, that's something how I look at it. But on the other side, are we done then not like apologizing where they go wrong and what is wrong anyway? So these are always the conversations I had, but with my own mind, where I often got disappointed by cards and have a love-hate relationship.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:04

When I started reading cards, I was very emotionally invested in other people's business, you know, rookie mistake number one. And I think when you are reading cards, one of the things that we have to do is that regardless of how practical or good our advice or our reading is, the person has free will to do whatever the hell they want with their life. And also, it has been my experience that people will do whatever they set out to do most of the times, regardless of what you say in your card session. For example, someone who is in a job that is not good for them, that is a toxic environment, that yes, can maybe promote them, etc. etc. And they come to you and you tell them all this. If they don't want to leave that job because of social status or income or whatever the reason they they will not, and you have to make and I made peace with that early on, early on in my life. It's it's not for me to say or dictate how people can fix what's going on in their lives. I am giving them options. Yeah, I think you always have options, good or bad. Sometimes you get shitty options, you know. But I do not get invested in the outcome of what they decide to do. Of course, if someone is a close friend of mine, I am going to wish that they will do what's best for them. But if they don't, I have to respect that they didn't, and I don't have to make them feel bad. And it's not a failure on me or the cards. I think always I always think the cards are right. If when they're wrong, usually it's us that are wrong that we didn't read them correctly. Hey, I am I'm being I'm I'm being contradictive because I didn't say that cards were animistic, but okay. But the message in the cards is correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:43

Sometimes is the translator who is not uh having their best day.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:47

I think we But it's not it's not a fact, it's not really a fact. I I also do think that that was always going through her mind, but is this a fact? That the cards are always right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:57

Yes, sometimes I I've had things that I've said wrong, and for some reason when I have those things, I remember the cards. I don't remember if it's like you know, a 40 tableau, 40 card tableau or something, but if it's like a string of three cards, I'm going to remember those cards, and I'm going to sit down and look at the cards and I say, so I know the answer, and now I know the question, but I gave a different answer in my desk and I got it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:21

So where did I get it wrong?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

What agency of the card did I did I not read? Did I not take into into my into my equation? So sometimes I will go, and if I get something wrong, then I am going to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:36

For example, I remember during COVID, I was with a group called Coffee and Cards, where we would get together every day at eight in the morning to read cards for each other. And most of the questions that half the questions were did I get COVID? We got we would get a lot of those. It would be an hour slot where we would do these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:55

And we would get a lot of predictions. And after a year and a half of doing these, we did those things for many, many years. That group ran ran from uh a long time. It was uh done by Elise Orsa. And um at a at a point, you run out of questions. So sometimes it's gonna be is my Amazon package gonna arrive? And I remember all the cards in my in front of me had indications of mourning and yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:21

And I got it wrong. I said yes, and the package did not arrive for that person, it arrived like a week later.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:28

And so I went back and I looked up the cards and I thought, oh. And I didn't say, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:33

I didn't because I was looking at a knight and I thought, you know, night knight of cups, the guy, you know, that Lancelot asshole with that cop in hand, like, the guy with the package. No, no, he's really slow as fudge. No, hearts are slow, hearts are really slow. And I and I missed that because we were just, you know, it we it was for sports, it was for community and bonding.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:55

And so I missed that point that the suits in front of me were extremely slow. So even though I had the sun card there, yes, it's gonna arrive in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:04

Yeah, it did arrive in the morning just a week later. And so the answer was there.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:08

I just didn't see all the things that that I could have seen with it. And I jumped the gun, you know, I had a a moment of premature prognostication, if you want to call it, or prediction. And I think this is why people are afraid of predictions. But I say no, make make a game out of it. I think prediction is the most fascinating um field of cardomancy, is and sometimes world events. I remember, you know, for the US election. I'm so sorry, Morgan, that you have to live in backcountry with where these things are happening. But I remember reading for that election and and and saying, and I was in conversations with Farrell Humphrey, and she was reading for the election, and people were reading. And I remember one that had like the Queen of Swords, which you know, she said it was Kamala Harris. And I remember a particular reading of her that I looked at, it's like, oh my god, no, he's gonna win. And because it had Ace of Cups, it had the Queen of Swords, it had another card that I don't remember, uh, Lovers, also, and it had the King of Cups. And I turned to her and I said, the man who has the heart of the people is the one who's going to win the election. And and that kind of like broke me at that moment. Yeah. Uh because it was not what I wanted to do. Um, but but then and then we we but she was in front of him actually. But I said, I cannot ignore the fact that I have this huge heart and I have the king that rules, the lovers and people who are enamored of an idea of making something right again, you know. People do not like Queens of Swords, they they are disliked for a reason, they do not win popularity. Yeah, no, so maybe you liked it, didn't you? I was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:53

No, I just yeah, that's that's actually the one time I never pulled the cards for it because it's like I live here, so I already know which way it was going. No, but you know, it's like astrology, all things will pass, and I hope that but like you said, moving forward, you know, or trying to, at least through community, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:14

I I think that what what will keep us uh sane is the sense of community and the sense of hope. Yes. And I think that in times of scar uh scarcity, in times of uh when people when there's not not so much, you know, a economical power and so on and so forth, people will tend to get angry and they'll tend to get angry at a the lowest common denominator. And and I and and it's not something it would be silly of us to think that it's something that just would happen in the US. No, I don't think so. So and we we lived under a dictatorship until the mid-70s. So I don't know why we were so stupid to actually be enamored with that. I I mean, I see kids the other day. I was going, I was at the mall and I saw a group of like I don't know, they would be like 19 or 20, and they were talking about how great things were in the dictatorship. First, they weren't alive during those times, so they're must be listening to stories that their grandparents were talking. So I was so in so enraged that I went to them stupidly because you're not gonna it makes sense of teenagers. So I went to them and I was like, you know what? During the dictatorship, you wouldn't be drinking that can of coke because we wouldn't have coke here. And look at those Levi's you're wearing. We didn't get Levi's because you would have to get them on contraband, and you have to have come from a very affluent or families with a lot of money to be able to buy them. Oh, and McDonald's, McDonald's only came to Portugal in the 80s, and it would and people were lining up to go to McDonald's. So and I said, So shut the heck up with those ideas because you weren't even alive. Yeah, yeah. But there's this narrative, it's like, oh, everything was fine and people didn't hurt, crying out loud, both my parents escaped this country in the 60s because there was not enough jobs and money, and people were you know, people were were hungry and they didn't have jobs, and they were sending kids six, seven years old into the fields to work. There was a lot of poverty, a lot of ignorance.