Jen Sankey on Deck Creation, Lunar Wisdom, and Returning Home to Your Practice

Welcome Seekers 

In this episode, we welcome the luminous Jen Sankey author, tarot reader, deck creator, and professional witch whose work blends lunar magic, intuition, and creative enchantment. We dive into her newest book, explore the stories and symbolism behind her beloved tarot decks, and wander through the mysteries of The Moon as both card and teacher. Jen shares how returning to basics can refresh and deepen your personal practice, why simplicity is often the most magical path, and what inspires her to keep creating tools for intuitive seekers. It’s a warm, insightful conversation filled with laughter, wisdom, and a few cosmic breadcrumbs for your own journey.

Check out her work, explore her decks and connect with the natural cycles of moon and manifest through her book!

Stardustwanderertarot.com 

Themysterychannel.org

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Let's say it's so nice to meet you in person, finally, because I've read your book and seen your work and stuff. But if you want to, you know, introduce yourself to everyone who you are, like what you do, all that fun stuff. I can do that. I can do that.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

So obviously, Jen Sankey. Also Stardust Wanderer Tarot. And I've been a practicing witch for a very, very long time. We don't need to say numbers. Before internet, let's put it that way. The 1900s. So yeah, and really it's just been, you know, I was kind of the quirky weird kid that liked to play in the woods looking for the fae and just kind of evolved from there, found tarot when I was about 12 and really started learning it the best I could. Like I said, there was no internet at that point. So you had that little book, and it was just the regular Ryder Wheat Smith deck. And so, you know, I feel like I feel like back at that point too, we we learned it a little bit differently than we do now because of, you know, we just didn't have the access. So I feel like it was definitely like kind of more intuitive. And then the study came later on for me, and really I started working with the moon as a teenager. I was out of my house at 14. So I had to learn very fast to rely on my intuition. And that's really kind of what led me to my moon work. And then I started teaching and speaking and all of those things. And here we are today. Really quick, quick little well, that's that's like a century in one minute. It was that was the quickest, like it's like that was like just a little snippet of all the things going on. Had four kids in between, we had a have business, all those things. And you know, I think really what it came down to is that because I was out so early, it was just I it I don't want to say I was like forced into my magic, but I was like, I needed to rely on something and someone, and I knew everyone around me wasn't it, so that's what that's really where I decided to focus it. And you know, as a teen, you can go many different ways. So I I consider myself very lucky that I picked magic.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

That's true too. That's been amazing though, because like it was, you know, that speaks to me because like it's at a time where it wasn't that popular. You know what I mean? It wasn't that out in the open or it was like really looked down by, you know, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Oh, for sure. Yeah, and and you know, and that's always what I've been drawn to as well. Like if it's something that nobody's talking about or like, oh my gosh, what is that? You know, I'm like, oh, okay, let me see what this is about. I'm gonna start doing it. So, you know, I guess that's part of my hard-headedness there. You know, I've Evan Aries moon. So I'm I'm all about blasting into spaces and being like, what's up? Let's do this. What magic? Oh, people feel weird about that. Okay, well, I'm gonna dive head first. So I I think that, you know, I think that's definitely has been a big part of my my life. And I think, you know, just especially, and again, just working with the moon because it's always been there, you know, and it's there no matter what, whether you practice magic or not, if you're a witch or not, that moon is still out there and everybody notices it, right? Like nobody's not like, oh, I don't see anything. Meanwhile, it's like right there. So, you know, I think I think that's really a part of why even I wrote the book, because a lot of people want to work with the moon, but they don't know where to start, and they see it out there and they know they feel a certain way when the full moon's out, or they only see a crescent moon. So, you know, I try to like bring it all together.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, because that's the book behind you, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yes, all over. I have everywhere they're everywhere, you know, and then and then of course the tarot decks too, and and I love tarot, you know, that's always gonna be my my main thing. I, you know, and and then I started creating tarot decks because and I didn't think I was gonna be able to do it, and then I started, and my first tarot deck is Stardust Wanderer Tarot. So that one is over here. That's that's this one. So she was self-published, and let me tell you, that is a journey, that is a very long, very interesting journey. That's what I'll say about that. So probably won't be self-publishing again. It was it was a lot, you know, and I give people credit for that that are constantly self-publishing stuff because it is it's just a lot of business, and so I I was I was able to self-publish it. We kickstarted it and it was successful, thankfully. And that is really like a sci-fi pirate, space pirate, gods and goddesses, and it was a story. The fool is Mina, and she's a space goddess, and she kind of just like the story just kind of downloaded and was like, Here's our tarot deck. And I'm like, I don't know. I was making a tarot deck, but here we are. So it was it was really interesting how that all came about. And like her dad is Blackbeard, her mom is Celine, goddess of the moon, and a really crazy story about that is the name Mina just showed up in my head, right? And I'm like, okay, the fool's name is Mina. Well, I was looking, you know, just doing some research because I'm like, okay, now I better research all this stuff if I have to write about it. And Celine had 50 daughters, and one of her daughters' names is actually Mina. So that was crazy. Like, I was just like, whoa, okay, this is what's happening. And it was it, it the art took a while to do, it's very detailed, like I said, but we got it out there, and now US Games actually picked it up, and that's going so the Mass Market edition is going to be coming out in the end of June. So I'm super excited about that. I do have a couple, like, I think I may have like 150 copies left, and I am selling them on Amazon because it's just easier for shipping. So, and if you really don't want to use Amazon, you can contact me. I do have some here. And after that, after June, those won't be available anymore. So if you want a first edition, definitely get on that because that that window is closing very quickly, which is crazy. It's so crazy to think that, you know. We change, you know, we we changed a couple of different things just to make the mass market unique. So I'm I'm excited. I'm hoping in the next like month or so I'll be getting my like author copy of it, and that'll be that'll be cool to have. Yeah, yeah, I'm excited about that. Yeah, so I'm super excited about that. And and then next we have Enchanted Forest Felines, and that is my kitty cat deck. So that's this one here. It's super cute. And Llewellyn did this thing on it. I'm just trying to open it. They um they put like a little paw print, like a see-through paw print. You see it right there. Like I just thought that was so much fun. So that's my my kitty deck, and that's with Llewellyn. I also have a goblin deck coming out with Llewellyn, Goblin Whispers Tarot. I posted a couple pictures of that, and that's super fun.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Yeah, I think I remember seeing that because I like that goblin thing. Nobody does like the darker, creepier, you know, like goblins since like Brian Brown, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, well, and that's what I love. I love, love him, and I love David Bowie. But I'm just getting that out there. I'm obsessed. I have actually I have long sleeves on today, but I have a whole 80s sleeve of tattoo sleeve of all 80s movies. So I have Labyrinth, I have Dark Crystal, I have Never Ending Story, I have all of that on there. So, you know, that's my yes, that's my inspiration for that. And I love that. And then I have a couple other ones that are hopefully soon to be announced, but right now, yeah, we've just been, we've just playing with the moon right now, getting that out there.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yes, no, I love that. Because it's true that I feel like there's so much information that, but like somewhere to start with it. Not like so much, but you know what I mean? Like everyone's kind of like, oh, do this, do that, but like not in a way that's magical. You know what I mean? Like, not in a way that actually works with it like that. So yeah, I'm excited about that. Because I did order a coffee, it did not come yet. But I know the story of my life. Like when I ordered somebody else's book, it shipped to like my old address. Amazon and I have not been getting along.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, well, they were being weird too when the like the book first came out, the shipping was like, oh, next day shipping, and then all of a sudden it was like three weeks out, and I'm like, what is even happening right now? Which was annoying because it kind of like messes up your algorithm in Amazon. And I'm like, that's not fair. Can we redo that? Yes, yes, but it's it's out there, it's fine. Um, it's at Barnes and Noble too. Barnes and Noble bought a whole bunch. They reassured me that there, so it's out there, you can get it. But Amazon seems to have gotten a little bit better, but you know, it's Amazon, it's it is the animal that it is. But yeah, but yeah, so I mean, with my book, the first part of the book really is about learning a practice and creating a practice. And if you've never done spell work, if you've never had an altar, if you've never worked with any sort of deities or anything like that, all the everything in part one is about that. And it's really all about just okay, well, this is how we kind of start our practice, and then you get into part two, and that's each chapter is a moon face, and then tells you exactly what you need to do. Gives you, I give you so many options that you know you don't have to do them all. That's also one thing, and that goes with any books, anything that you get, right? You don't have to do every single thing at first because that's overwhelming. And that's the one thing I wanted to not do is overwhelm people because once you get overwhelmed, you don't do it, right? Like you start going and going, and then you're like, Oh, I can't do it, and then then you just you ditch it, right? Mostly like all the crafting I do, you know. I always have good intentions, but then then they kind of land there after a while because I'm like, what did I get myself into? I try though, I try. There's so many good that that's a problem. You go online and you see all this like crafting stuff, and you're like, I could do that, I could do that, and you get all the stuff, and you're like, wait, I can't do that. Just like I I can't draw, and that is something I do know. So I am so lucky to have been blessed with amazing artists. And even with manifesting by the moon, the cover art and everything, they did such a good job with it, and they asked me all my ideas, and I gave them and they did they did such a good job. So that's pretty cool because you don't really get to pick your cover, you get to like have choices, but you you know, I mean, I think if there's something really specific that you want, if it fits their vibe, but just kind of give them ideas and they they come up with it, so it's always really cool when it aligns.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Oh, I love that. Yeah, it is good. Well, it's a beautiful cover, yeah. Because it's like that ancient looking kind of, you know, not like the mystical things people do because the moon's so much more than that, you know what I mean? Because it is ancient, it is old, it is mystical, but it's old first, you know, old magical. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, it's got the moon, yeah, it's got the moon flowers on it. So that was good. And I didn't want it to be in intimidating, but you know, because I feel like socially if a beginner's picking it up and the book has like, you know, runes and sigils all over it, it's like, oh, I don't know, this might not be for me. So I wanted to make it like I just wanted to be super approachable too. Like, oh, okay, anybody again could pick this book up. And I liked it, I you know, even with the spell work and even, you know, that I have tower spreads in there, there's a card assigned to each lunar phase as well. And I wanted you to be able to just kind of pick it up and go, but also doing the spell work is practical. Like that, I'm I'm really big on being practical because if I put a spell in there that needs an herb that is like $500 for two ounces, you know, again, you're not gonna do it, you know, it's ridiculous. And there, you know, when you're first starting, I literally want you to be able to go in your kitchen and go in your herb cabinet and take out what you need, you know, like use that first. And I and I always say, go outside, you know, if you need, if you don't have a crystal, a specific crystal for something, go outside and find a rock. Like literally just ask. Like, I need a rock for you know, my new moon working, and just walk around and whichever one pops out, that's it. It doesn't need to be fancy. And you know, as your practice grows and as you, you know, start doing more, yeah, you're gonna start picking up some crystals and learning the properties of them. And I have all suggestions in there as well. But in the beginning, you know, just use what you have. I'd rather you do it than take, you know, three months trying to like source all the different things. And I always say to you, it done is better than perfect, you know, perfect. Just it doesn't need to be perfect. And I feel, you know, a lot of times with people, you know, especially on the internet now and everything, they have these beautifully queried feeds and they have alters and and spell work and it just looks so like pristine. And you know, I've talked to a lot of people who are like, Oh, I just don't have time to make it to do that. I have pets that, you know, they're gonna just jump all in that. And, you know, that's fine. If if somebody has the time to do that, you know, unfortunately, a lot of the time it's performative, they're not actually doing the spell, they light the candle, they take the picture video, and then they just put it all away. And you know, I've I've talked to people who do that, you know, talk to them, you know, but it's it's I just want people to know that they really can do very simple magic, stirring intentions into your tea or your coffee, you know, taking a shower intentionally to cleanse. You know, it is, it's like for people who have practiced for so long, it's like, oh, this stuff is just whatever, it's the basic stuff. But how many times like do we need to go back to basics? I feel like that just refreshes our whole practice, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Yes, I agree completely. That's what I love. Yeah, books like that, because starting and seeing how you do things differently, you know, because like you said, you start doing things and not even realizing it. Right. Yeah, it's like habit instead of intention.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah, it is, and it does. It becomes a habit. Like if you're pulling cards every day, you're just pulling your card and whatever. But if you're doing it with with the moon phase, you know, if you're if you're going, it's all right, well, the full moon in my book, you know, mostly most times it's related to release and all of that, right? In my book, it's more geared towards balance because it you're working through the phases. So I want that to like you have to let things go in order to bring things in, right? So, excuse me. So those tarot cards, I picked two for that one, is the sun and the moon. Because what is the moon shining on that you're keeping hidden that needs to be brought out, maybe released, worked on, worked through? And what is the sun shining on that you're showing everybody, but maybe you don't need to be, you know, and that's the other thing is a lot of times we're always just constantly, you know, throwing things on. Oh, yeah, this happened, this happened, this happened. Some things aren't meant to be shared until they're where they need to be. So it's just like having that discernment as well. Like, okay, I'm gonna just balance everything out, take a step back, and focus on me and where I need to go. And what do I need to do to finish out this moon cycle? Because now at that full moon point, we're going into the waning phases. So that's kind of like the tying the loose ends and all of that. And really to I also focus on the dark moon. People like to like to skip over that. They're like, I don't need to do that, but that's really where the big integration comes in. That's where just taking that self-care and that time, because as a society, we suck at self-care and giving ourselves space and just being mindful in the moment. So I really focus on that when we get into those waning phases as well. Because I want you to integrate everything you did. I want you to realize that okay, maybe what I wanted at the new moon really isn't what I want now. And that's okay. Because then that means that you've done some work, you've moved through and you've moved space, you've created space, and that's awesome because that next phase that you know, the next cycle you work with, now you're gonna be able to do even more.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yeah. Yes, clear the way for yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

That's true. What what is your what is your definition of magic anyway, Jen? Um, I think really it is knowing yourself and knowing what you're capable of, being able to focus your energy. I think that's really important. And that's something I really talk a lot about in my book too, is being oh being able to focus your energy. Because a lot of times, you know, there is chaos magic, there's chaotic magic, and that's you know, that's kind of a different thing. But when you're first starting, you know, just people will do a candle spell and they'll light the candle and just be like, okay, I lit my candle. Now I'm gonna get whatever, whatever I asked for. And they don't focus their magic, they don't really focus on that intention. Why do they want it? Why, what do they think is going to happen when it does come to fruition fruition? So being able to know that about yourself and know, again, just having that discernment, like, is this what I want? Or do I think I want this? Why do I want this? Asking those questions, being able to kind of touch on the shadowy parts of things and still be able to be focused. So it's work. It is work. It's it's not just this easy thing, like, you know, there are a lot of places and and things that want to be like, oh, you can manifest in three days, just do X, Y, and Z. You'll have everything you want. And by the way, it's gonna only 10, you know, it'll cost you 10 grand. It's fine. But you know, you have to put in in order to receive, you know, to receive it, and which is the worst thing ever. I can't stand when people say that. But I I think that by focusing your magic and and really getting to know yourself, because that's when you're able to use it properly.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

If you don't know yourself, if you don't know, you know, why you want things and how you want things, how can you focus magic to make it happen? You know, at that point, it's just kind of all over the place. And I do think it's important that as you choose a path, whether you're doing divination, whether you're doing ritual work, is learning and being open to different perspectives and really understanding the basics of things. I think, you know, your intuition, it deepens your intuition when you understand the basics. Um, and that doesn't mean that you don't harness your intuition, you don't move that way, but you want to just make sure it gives you that basis. It kind of gives you that starting point instead of just kind of willy-nilly like going for it, like I was saying, like just lighting a candle and go, you know, woo-hoo, let's see what happens. But it gives you that basis. And then, you know, even as you're doing divination, having that basis and doing taking that time to do that study and see why, you know, why did they, you know, Pam, why did she put that in this card? Why is that color in there? And you may hate the Ride-a-Waitsmith deck, you may hate it. You the colors, you know, so many people are like, that was my OG first deck, and I'll always love it for that reason. But there's reasons why there's different things in there. There's reasons why we work with the moon phases and and taking the time to kind of do that study, I think, also helps you recognize what it means to you and how you feel about it because everybody feels different, you know, and everyone has a different perspective on things. So also seeking others' opinions and talking and having these discussions with other people to get their perspective, even if you don't agree with it, it still hangs out in your head. And you might come across somebody and they may be like, Yeah, I don't really like this. I it doesn't really sound right to me. But then you'll think of, you know, Morgan's perspective on this, and I may not have agreed with it, but this person, oh wait, somebody told me once, you know, X, Y, and Z, and and they may be like, Oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. And then that opens up a whole other realm for them. So I think it's again, it's just being open and and being receiving and you know, seeing what you can do with it because you never know. Because a lot of people, you know, if you're just doing your practice, again, you're just doing it and that's it, then it closes you off. So reading books, using, you know, getting readings from other people, I think is so, so important.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

That is true, especially the different yeah, modalities that they have, even beyond tarot.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yeah, yeah. Cause I mean, again, that's gonna, they're gonna draw that perspective from what they've learned and experienced. And it may not be something that, you know, maybe a modality that you'd probably never do, but their experience and their perception of a card, a meaning, may really spark something in you and be like, oh, okay, that makes a lot of sense. I never thought of it that way before. And, you know, then you can dive into that and see what it means to you and and how it affects your magic and how maybe you can build on your magic from that.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Oh, yeah, I like that. Especially if you're just yeah, coming at it from that magical aspect.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Yeah. I mean, I think I think that, you know, it's hard now too, because there's so much gatekeeping. There's so much, you should do this, you shouldn't do that. And I purposely on Facebook joined like beginner witchcraft um groups. I mean, a lot of it's painful, I'm not gonna lie. Like sometimes I just gotta keep scrolling because I'm like, oh my gosh. And you know, I need a spell for this, I need a spell for that. I need and it's like, friend, no, you need to call the cops and you need to go to the doctor. And that's, you know, but every once in a while there's there's a couple of good questions in there. And I just, you know, I do that for myself to keep myself humble, you know, and and just be like, you know, I again, we're here to help and to serve. And I do feel that, you know, doing that also, and and again, even something so simple or a book recommendation, or maybe my opinion on something can help focus them and create a better practice for them, then I tried to do that, you know. And so sometimes I'm like there's some really great questions I'm in there and I'm typing away, but then sometimes I have to back away because sometimes it's like, woo, but you know, don't do this, don't do that, don't use this, don't use that. And then and you know, and I feel that, you know, if people just approached it a little differently and say, oh, maybe I wouldn't use that. This is traditionally what it's used for. Why do you want to use it in this different way? And, you know, make it more a teachable moment instead of don't do that, don't do that. Because if you go on there, there's so many that say that. Don't do this, don't do that. You know, and even if somebody is trying to work in a practice that's closed, you know, oh, don't do that. How are you doing that? Oh, you're this, that, and the other thing. How about this? Usually is a traditionally closed practice that, you know, you may need more sourcing. Maybe read some of these books to learn about it so you know, you know, why it's closed, why maybe this isn't going to work for you, but there may be something else. You know, I again it's just that redirection. And I and I I feel like sometimes that gets a little bit lost. And even in my book, there's a couple of D Ds that you can create altars for and and work with, but that's kind of as far as it goes. Like you can work with them in the moon aspect, but that's as far as it goes. And I state that in there and I say why. And and the back of the book has so many resources of different recommendations that I did. I did like a section for each thing I talked about in the book and why, you know, to recommend. So let me see, for instance, and I think that's important. Everybody's like, Well, you wrote a book. Why are you recommending other books to people? Because again, that's how we learn. That's how and I and I, you know, I mean, I have like, oh my gosh, there's probably four or five pages of recommended reading that I have. You know, I went through each of these and I really made sure that I, you know, felt they were aligned with me and with my, you know, what I was trying to get across in my book. But, you know, for the goddesses, you know, Lilith Dorsey is fantastic with all of that. So I'm like, read her stuff. She actually did an endorsement for me and she's wonderful. You know, there's intuition, there's sigils, there's herbs, there's all of those things. And, you know, I even have like my bibliography is literally like 10 pages long. And that means I had to cite every single one of those. And let me tell you, writing a book, that's the one thing that you're just like, I can do this. I can do this. So again, it's just making, you know, taking these little bits from everybody and and you know, including them in your practice. And I think that's so important. And, you know, take my book, take other moon books, put them all together and create this whole practice for yourself. That's totally fine. And I think that people sometimes feel like they could only read the one book and they could only do what's out of that book, or else they don't, you know, it's gonna be crazy. No, just take your time because that's another thing is people want to rush through it. They want to rush through everything. I mean, how many people you know that are learning tarot and they want to they want to start doing readings for people like in five minutes? And it's like, no friends, breathe. You're gonna, you need to understand what's going on here, you know. So I think that's a really big thing. And and even with magic and practicing magic is take your time and learn it, integrate it, let it become a part of you, let it and let it move around in your body a little bit before you really start like pulling out the big, you know, the big guns of spell work and all altars and all of that. If you just have a simple little altar every day that you work with, that's fine. You know, it doesn't need to be crazy, it doesn't need to be huge, but I, you know, again, it's just taking your time to learn it, to understand it, to understand it for you and how it feels for you. Because I feel that people start reading, and even when they're working with the moon, they're like, okay, well, the moon, you know, we have this last quarter moon phase is the last push. So I should be doing a last push, but they're not like, what is the last push? Why? Why do I need to do that? What does it mean for me? Because sometimes that's where the resistance shows up, and that's okay. And we want that, you know, and everybody's like, oh, all these things are popping up as I'm starting to learn magic and practice magic. That's okay. We want that. That means it's working. That means that you're touching on those shadowy things that need to be touched on. And if you're, you know, when that stuff pop pops up for you, just take it slowly, you know, again, like it's it's just this isn't a rush. This isn't a race. Take it slow. You know, if it's something that feels really big, just poke it a little bit, just poke that little bear. You know, you don't need to dive head first into the big deep hole, and and then that's the end of everything. Just, you know, the more you kind of get it little pokes, the you know, the more familiar it is, and you can go deeper and deeper. But I do think that if you learn to kind of play with the shadow and you learn to harness that part of you, because that is, it's the light and the dark, right? We all have that, and a lot of you know, there are a lot of you know people or groups that are like, just stay in the light, stay in the light, Carolyn. You know, it's like, no, this isn't polar, guys. We're not staying in the light, friends. You know, you do need to touch in the dark. And even in my book, I I'm like, okay, well, if stuff is popping up, this is what we do for it. If, you know, if you need to stop working on your intention during the cycle because something big popped up, then do that because you know what? It's gonna happen again in a month. You can start over, and that's totally it.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah, yeah. I like that. Especially giving people doing giving people grace to just kind of do that, skip around, like spend time with it. Maybe you have the same intention for like two moon cycles.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Right. And sometimes that is how it is. I mean, really, sometimes just working through a moon cycle is kind of batting off all of that or just giving it some attention. And you may not have come to, you know, come to that, you know, whatever you wanted to manifest at the end. But again, you've created space and giving yourself that, like you said, that grace to create that space is really important. And I mean, I know when I've done readings for people, I've given them, you know, it's like you give them permission to take the time, you give them permission to do self-care. And it's kind of crazy to think about like, I'm giving this grown adult permission to do self-care. But sometimes we need someone else to tell us because like we know we need to do it, but it gets ignored, it gets put at the bottom of the list. But if someone's saying you straight up, like, listen, you better take care of yourself or else then you're like, then you listen, right? Like, so we shake it up sometimes. And sometimes, you know, again, it's that other perspective telling you that, yeah, I'm seeing this in you too. I'm seeing this in the cards for you as well. It's time for you to take a step back, it's time for you to work on these shadowy things. So, as you know, as you work through the moon phases and you see, you know, and you work with the different cards that are attached, that is going to bring up stuff. And it's meant to, like we want it to, because again, we want to deepen your magic, we want to deepen your practice, we want to, you know, make you the best magical being that you can be for yourself. And that's what it comes down to. This isn't for anybody else, this is for you. And if you do the work here, you know, you you start working through the book and you're doing it, you don't have to post it, you don't have to talk about it. And you know, I feel like a lot of times that it's like, oh, I gotta, I gotta write about it. I need to post about if you want to, you absolutely can. But also realize if it's taking away from your practice and and again you're losing that focus, your magic is getting unfocused, then you need to take it down and maybe do it after, you know. Maybe put you know, take some videos and and leave them and save them till the end so you know that you're staying focused.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Definitely get that.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, it's important.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah. And people don't really, you know, people don't, I think people forget that. Again, it's like it's that basics, you know, people forget about it because they get so caught up in all the other stuff that, you know, it's like, I need to do this, I need to do that, I need to do this, you know, alter and I need to change this, and and you lose your focus, and then you're losing your magic's all over the place, and you need to refocus. And a lot of, you know, I also have affirmations in there. I have like moon exercises just to connect with the moon, and really it's a lot of mindfulness, and it's a lot of, but in more magical way, not like in a weird, quirky, you know, new age way, which new age is fine, it's totally fine. But the, you know, again, this is geared more towards people who want to really create a magical practice. So it's really using these tools to help you do that, and you know, and and you know, then you start learning about the moon phases and you see how you feel during the moon phases, and then you start noticing other things about other people in the how they're reacting to the moon phases. And in the back, I have a whole zodiac chapter and it talks about the zodiac and the moon and bringing that into it, and then you start, you know, seeing it's like when you first learn astrology or start know about astrology, and you start like, oh, by any chance do you know what your moon sign is? Do you know it's and you're then you're like, oh, okay, all right, I I see what's going on. But it helps you to understand others as well. And I think that's so important, especially nowadays with just communicating. And if you're doing work for others, you know, magical work for others, it's great to know those things because then you know how to commute communicate with them more effectively and that you know, you're not just kind of saying whatever, but okay, well, I know that, you know, again, I'm in Aries moon. I know that, you know, I'm in Aries moon, so just say direct. Like, I don't want any nonsense because I'm gonna burn that shit up. I'm like, forget, I don't want to hear all this fluff. Like, tell me straight. Like, if I meet somebody who tells me straight, I'm like, it's like the best thing in the world for me, but that doesn't happen very often. A lot of people can't do that, right? Like they can't handle just telling you straight up. So it's like every once in a while I can find find those people that just tell me, and I love it. And it's and you know what? For me, it's like, yeah, let's let's just cut through that so we can have a real discussion, whether we agree or not. I just feel like it makes it so much more effective. And that's just how I communicate. But if I'm talking to a Pisces, then they're not like that. They're not that Pisces moon is not gonna be shooting his shit. Like they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm feeling all of this, and I gotta talk about all these feelings. And so then I know, okay, I need to taper it down a little bit. I need to calm down, calm down, Jen. And then, you know, and then I know that I need to approach it differently. And so, you know, and that's even what I'm doing reading as for I'm doing teaching people about moon work and all of that. Like, you have to come at it where you know that you're going to be able to integrate it the best, understand it the best, and make it work for you the best. And what works for me isn't gonna necessarily work for you. So that's why, you know, even with the book that give you all of that, like learn your moon sign, learn about it, understand it, and see how it relates to you. And, you know, there are people too that kind of on a cusp, you know, there kind of might be a little bit of both. So learn about both of those and see what you can do to kind of integrate that to make it work for you. And again, it takes a little bit of, you know, research, a little bit of reading, a little bit of learning, and taking that step back to give yourself the space. And again, you know, like I said, and and I I'm always constantly repeating that is just taking time, taking space because everything is so rushed now. And as Aries moon as I am, I do know that much. I do know that I can taper it. I'm pretty good at it, but it's like slow slow your roll a little bit because then your your practice is just gonna be a lot deeper and a lot more effective that way. No, it's not true, and me and my my fire all over the place, and I'm a Sagittarius rising too, so there's even more fire, and then Libra Sun. So I'm like a weird mix.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

No, I guess, yeah, I'm with you on that with my weird mixes too. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Do you wasn't say, do you work with the black mil black Lilith moon in your book? Or do you put the um we talk about it a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Yeah, we talk about we talk about it a little bit. That would be, you know, if I decided to do another moon book, it'd probably be more of like an advanced, you know. We have a little, we have like a chapter at the end about advanced stuff. Again, don't want to scare anybody. We talk about that. I talk about working with solar eclipses, blue moons, and all of that. Because again, back in those witch, you know, those beginner witch groups. The I don't know, everybody's so freaking scared of a free solar eclipse or a lunar eclipse, like they think it's just everything's just gonna explode. And I'm like, guys, we knew that this was happening. Like, literally, like you can look and see when these things are gonna be. Like, everything isn't gonna just explode. And it's again, it's it's learning about it and knowing what the energy is. Do you want to work with that type of energy? Or do you not? And if you don't, that's fine. If you do, giddy up, let's go, and and start creating a plan of how you want to work with that energy. And I always recommend try it at least once and see see if you like it or not. Some people work with it and they're like, oh, all right, it's nothing crazy. But also, there's also people too that were born under eclipses. So for them, it may be like go time, and somebody on some beginner rich groups like, don't work with it, it's chaos, and everything is everything is bad, and uh, you know, the world's gonna explode, you know? And but meanwhile, that person is brand new to it, they don't even know that they were born under an eclipse, and that might be really great for them. So again, it's just it's it's don't take everything you hear, you know, to heart. Just do your research, vet the people you're researching. But I I think that I love working with eclipses, and I think that depending on what zodiac sign it's in, you could really harness like some good energy and really clearing some stuff. And again, it's all about making more space. And if you want to make some good space, working in the I I definitely don't anybody listening, don't be afraid of them. And you know what they're happening, and if you don't want to mess with it, don't mess with it. You just let it go by and nothing's gonna happen, or else you you take the time, prepare, and you and you work with it. And usually good things are happening there, but it's like good, you say good things, but again, it might bring up some shadow stuff. But don't be afraid of that. And I think that's another thing that's so important is don't be afraid of your shadow, don't be afraid of working with that. Those are the you know, it's those things the moon is going to shine its moonlight on, are those things that you don't want people to see about you, or maybe you don't think are great about you. But sometimes those aspects of your personality can be really effective in your magic and just really effective with communication. Like you may need to like harness those type of things, especially if you look at it in like an archetype type way. Like, you know, I I have some really hard stuff I need to do. Let me harness this aspect of myself in an archetype way. And it kind of gives you again another tool. It's just using what you have, and that's even what you have within yourself, even if you're a little bit scared of it. It's okay. It's a little bit scared of it, you know. That's where change comes, right? That's where changes is in the scared. And and I always say if you're nervous, if you're nauseous about something, usually means you probably should do it. Yes, you know, it's like there's change there, and that's what we want to happen. Because if you don't ever change, if you don't ever grow your practice, if you don't ever learn, it's not, it's just you're just again, it's like you were saying earlier, it's just a habit. You're just gonna move through emotions and it's not gonna do you any good. Yeah, no, I agree. Because if you're not scared or terrified of it, you're just doing the same things you've always done. Right. And nothing changes, nothing grows, nothing happens, and you're like, why doesn't my magic work? I don't have any magic, and it's like you do, but you're gatekeeping yourself at the moment, so you need to stop that. Yeah, make some eclipse work and then blow that open and get going with it. You know, change it up, and sometimes, even you know, if you do feel that you're getting kind of in a in a rut, in a routine with your magic, go change it up. Try even doing a type of divination that you don't love. Learn about it, try it out, do it again, do something out of the ordinary. If you, you know, do tarot every day and that's what you do, and that's it, and you're kind of feeling though that like you're not really getting the answers that you want, you know. Number one, clean your deck. Maybe you need to do a little cleansing, but try something different. Maybe uh, you know, Lenarman, try that out and see, or even just do crystal reading or anything, you know, something a little bit different just to kind of jazz it up a little bit, and then really also working again, tapping into that shadow. Work, you can use a moon cycle with the intention of changing up your routine. How can you change your routine? And that could be really powerful because now that you're moving through and each phase has a specific energy, and now you're taking that and you're using that energy to create change for yourself and your practice, you can really open up a lot. And sometimes you can open up maybe an ability you didn't even know you had, you know, and that's really important, or maybe a Claire that you haven't worked on or worked with, maybe start trying to tap into that or use a moon cycle with the intention of strengthening that Claire. And after that, you know, at the end, you I guarantee something different will be happening for you. And then you can move on from there and build with that and build on that and and incorporate that.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Very layered, very layered.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

It is very layered, yes, yes. Very un very much like an onion, right? Lots of layers. Um you know, I and you know, and I think too that instead of instead of making your onion really pretty and putting bows on it, start taking those layers off and start going deeper. And I think that a lot of you know, there are times that people just want to stay at that surface level magic and and intentions and all of that. And and you're not gonna go anywhere. And those are the ones that are again saying nothing's working, nothing's happening, everything's staying the same. Well, if you feel like that, that is, go ahead and start really diving a little deeper. And and if you don't know how to, there's so many books. There's so many, there's there's so many resources available to us now that weren't available available to us, rather. And you know, when I was younger, I went to the library. The metaphysical section was like three books. It was like yeah, that was it. There was like a pick a book, there is a moon book, and there's like probably like a Satan book or something. And and they were always checked out because you know, all us cool kids were checking it out as much as possible. And we didn't have that resource, you know. So I think it's it's like one of those things, it's good and bad, but it's really setting that intention. Like, why am I reading into this? Why do I want to know about this? And sometimes asking those questions also defines your path and defines what you want to do because you may, you know, you may want to learn, okay. I want to learn more about crystals. Why do you want to learn about crystals? Well, I think they're shiny and pretty. Well, maybe that's not why you want to do, you know, maybe that you should think about that a little more or write a, you know, maybe do some journaling or meditation or something. But um, you know, I think giving yourself that space to grow is really important. Yeah, absolutely, definitely.

unknown 43:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

We don't, we don't, and and it because we're just, you know, we're kind of trained not to. We're trained to conquer this, move to the next thing, conquer this, move to the next thing. And you know, magic is not that. Magic doesn't care. The moon doesn't care, you know. The moon's gonna just keep doing her thing regardless of what you're doing. She's like, you're following along or you're not. I'm just gonna keep doing this over here. So figure yourself out.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Yeah, yeah. And all right, no spiritual bypasses here.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

No, no, no, no. No, no. It's it is, it's just it's it's a funny, it's a funny thing. And it's funny how it's just growing and changing and evolving, just just uh everybody's practice because of the internet, because of social media, because of all of that. And I, you know, there's been people that even like, why even bother writing books? No one write, nobody reads books anymore. And it's like, yeah, but. They they do those people who know what they're looking for. They know they want to go deeper. They know they want those resources right then and there. So I really wanted to write a book for kind of geared towards teens. And my publisher was just like, teenagers don't read books. They don't, they're not gonna pick up a book and read it. And I was like, so it's kind of in limbo, but I was just always kind of like, but, but, you know, I I feel like they would like to have that sort, like resource they can write in, they can have with them. Like, at least if we can give them that, like they have that option, you know, instead of just writing notes in their phone, instead of just watching TikToks, you know. I I think it's important. And I I think that it's important for us to focus as people who have been practicing for a while, to the younger generation. Like, read, read, read, read. Like again, I'm always in those groups. Read, read. Here's book recommendations, read it. I don't care if you get it on Kindle, I don't care if you get it in physical copy, just just read. And it's because I just think it's so important. And I feel that, you know, even just supporting authors, supporting creators, it again is so important because, you know, with our artists now, with AI going on, even the writing, you know, to backtrack, I was on the Amazon, like I was looking at the the recently published list or whatever, right? So I was like, my book was hanging out on there, I was so happy. I was like, yay, but then it was gone, it just disappeared. I was like, where did my book go? So, but I'm looking at the titles, and probably 20 of those titles were AI books. And I went and I started looking, and there's this one guy, you know, you have like the Aurora Aurora Kane or whatever, and then there's another one. But this guy, I don't remember his name now, but he published 20 books in the last year. Oh wow, stop, just stop it. It took three years to write my book, like what? So I'm and I'm looking, and of course it's like the every subject is is all these crazy things, you know, and I'm like, but he, you know, they can pay people to review the books, so they pay their Amazon reviewers to review these fake books, and I I think like 10 of his books were on the the uh recently reviewed list and or the recently released list where my book was, but then there's like 10 of these AI books, and then my book gets booted off, you know, and I was like, so yeah, so bad about that because these books were crap, like you know, you can read the little snippet of it, crap. It's just AI slop, you know, and and again that goes again for the the artists, you know, even finding artists for my the decks I have in progress right now. It took it took a little while because you know they're like sorting through AR or not AI, and then now these artists, you know, they have to charge more because of that competition. And you know, even my I had that my artist from for Stardust people were like, this might be AI, and I'm like, holy crap, no, it wasn't. This took four years for her to draw, it was not, you know, but people don't know the difference, and if they see something, they just automatically assume. And it's frustrating, it's very, very frustrating. So I think it's really important for us to support our creators, is whether they're writing or drawing or singing or music or any of those things. All my boys are musicians, you know, and my uh third son, he's uh he does producing, and he was talking about like on Spotify, they Spotify itself actually released a song that was completely AI that was like number one, but it was number one because Spotify was bumping it up to that, you know, it was giving it that platform to do that, and he's like, This is ridiculous, like that. Again, like I'm on the you know, on this Amazon list, but then I'm not because there's 15 AI slot books, and you know, they are they pay people to do all these reviews, and even the reviews sound kind of wonky. So I think it's important to let our younger people know, like, no, there's really good authors out here. These are these people, these are the publishers that you want to follow, and you know, these are the artists you want to support and paying attention to that. And I, you know, I think that again, that's just so important right now, too. And then that's where they're gonna find the authenticity and be able to really work on their practice and hone their practice, and you know, then they could be the best magical people, and we need and we need that because they are they are the younger generation. So I think instead of everybody gatekeeping and everybody telling them no, this is wrong, this is wrong, and we really need to start guiding them. Putting out the book rec, yeah. Book right.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

That's what we try and do. That's why with your book too. I will be posting all about it, trying out things as soon as I get it.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

I know, I know. Once it gets there and stuff, all that just that little snippet, yeah. Yeah, but it is it's important, and and I think that it's hard right now to tell the difference. And if we don't tell them what the difference is, they're just gonna go with whatever's easy and whatever's cheap, and you know, even the fake decks I for my cat deck in Canada for us be lines. I reported like 10 counterfeit shops with the deck, and my artist, her name's Iva, she's from Croatia, she's delightful, and she even reported like 10 different ones because Llewellyn actually they have a website. If you find a counterfeit Llewellyn deck or book, you can go on their website and they have a place where you can report it and they kind of like put them all together. It's like it must be some sort of website that they kind of compile them. But that's you know, that's crazy too. And I think people, you know, a lot of people are still buying counterfeit decks and they like, we don't know, we don't know. And it's like, I don't know. I think if if there's a QR code, it's pretty well known that it's fake. But I feel that some people say that they didn't know, but they really did. But we see you, but okay. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, there's been stores, I've been in stores, I've gone into some physical shops and they have all fake decks, and I'd be like, you know that these are fake, and they're like, Oh yeah, well, you know, it's just so much cheaper. And and they they don't care. Wow, so I think it's you know, so obviously we don't recommend that those couple of shops that I was in, but I again it's just making people aware, I think is so important.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, no, definitely. I was gonna say that they have websites for that though that lets it know. So it's like guiding them there instead of like the chat GPT for finding it there, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Right, right. Sometimes that's you know, obviously not accurate. And you know, I well, that's like a whole nother realm, too, is is people doing getting spells off chat GPT, getting their magical information off of there again. It's kind of just a mishmash of everything, like they just picks up keywords and throws out whatever. I was on there was one book I was looking for. I'd seen someone posted it and I started looking and looking for it, and I said, you know what, I'm gonna put it in, you know, like the Gemini thing, because I don't have Chat GPT of the, you know. I'm like, let me just see what it is. Like, let me see if it brings this book up. And it brought up the book, but it brought it up with a different author's name, and then I went to research it and it like didn't exist. So somebody was recommending a book. They must have looked on there, and the book actually didn't exist, like it wasn't even in existence, and it just popped out this name. I don't know if it just took names from different authors and like the title from different authors and created this whole thing, but I thought that was kind of crazy, like that was crazy. Yeah, that isn't that that yeah. So people, you know, again, people are recommending books and recommending things without checking them first. So, you know, if you're gonna recommend stuff, at least look into it. You know, I think that's super important because if you're just putting it into a chat bot, it's some of the stuff's not real, like literally fake. I couldn't believe it. Like, I thought it was me. Like, I thought I did something wrong. Like, did I put this in wrong? Did I using this thing wrong? Nope, it just didn't exist, but it told it said it did, and that person recommended a book that literally didn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Oh my gosh, yeah, that's yeah, see, that's crazy. That's the kind of stuff that yeah, we'll be putting out there, you know, and what to get, where to get it, and all that stuff so that it won't have that happen.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

But no, definitely, definitely. And and that's what I mean though, in some of these groups and stuff. I think, you know, again, I think it's good if if people can kind of go in there and and try not to get emotional and just be like, here's information, here's take this little bit of information. If you listen or not, maybe someone else will take it. It's totally fine. But I can tell you my book's legit. I researched the heck out of all of it. I was looking into moon science from the 70s. That was a trip. I was like, wow, there's a lot going on here. And it's always very interesting with the the moon science part of things, because I do include some moon science in the beginning of the book, how it always does wind up tying into kind of a magical aspect. Like I'm reading legit like researcher moon science books, and they're talking about how it affects people, they're talking about affecting women's periods, they're you know, and all of that stuff. And it was crazy. It was crazy to see that no matter how science it got, there was still always that little magical element in there. I thought it was kind of cool, but I'm you know, I'm a moon dork, obviously. So I thought it was kind of cool, you know. I had so much like moon science in there too. They're like, we could probably cut some of this moon signs out. I'm like, no, but it's cool. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Oh yeah. But yeah, no, I love that. And I love about the book because like that's exciting, and it's really good to use the different practices because I know if you know Bjorn's Freemasonry, you know what I mean. So different forms of magic.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

Yes, yes, no, from what I know, they do super cool stuff. So I yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot, it's a lot of secrets in there, yeah, yeah. I actually looked that up one time too. Like I was really interested in in learning more about it and stuff, but there's not a lot of information for like women to like learn about it. So they let women in, right? They do, they they do now, but it's very limited, and so like the uh the uh places where they do allow it, I think it's more in England. And I can't, yeah, no, I can't just hightail it to England. I'd love to. I mean, that'd be great, but but no, but it it's very I'm very intrigued by it, I will say that much. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

Like, I want to know, tell me the thing, it's all fine.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

I won't tell, I promise. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's fun. Well, and I was gonna say too, because you do teach classes then, right? So just for everyone like to teach the moon classes and like how like guide people how they work through the moon too, right?

SPEAKER_00 55:07

I do, yeah. No, I do. Um, I do a lot of speaking and events and stuff like that. So if you follow me on on Instagram or wherever, I post on everywhere. So you, you know, you'll find me. But I am thinking about also, I've been toying with the idea of doing a Patreon. So it's one of those things like I've been thinking about it. I I know that I could definitely like the content is totally fine. It's the time to do it, you know. It's that's the part that's you know, so I'm trying to like figure it out because I do want to start doing something. I may start doing some moon circles, like during the different, you know, stuff like that. So I've been kind of playing with that idea and I'm trying to time it because I I do want to start writing again. I have another book idea that I want to start, so I'm just waiting for the go-ahead on that. So I think it it's all in the timing because when I'm writing, I'm writing. So trying to like start something else, like that whole thing, probably wouldn't, you know. Again, it's it's all about focus, and I need as much focus as I can get. I get very squirrely very quickly. So like I use one little noise and it could derail me for like two hours. And I'm like, all of a sudden I'm sitting here writing, all of a sudden I'm doing laundry and I'm watching TV and I'm doing, you know, and I'm doing all like baking bread or something. So I have to be very careful about what I put my focus to because it can go crazy fast. Like, who knows? You know, it's like the meme where the person's like cleaning their room, but they're sitting in the middle with all the stuff around them and like three hats on. That's me.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Yeah, yeah. No, oh my gosh. I'm exactly like that's why we brought up labyrinth, you know, and all that. Like, I'm like that old lady who's like surrounded by her stuff with the stuff pulled on her back. It's like that's like because I just keep taking stuff in and like, yeah, all that no, it's somebody, and I I actually there was a like a reel the other day I just shared.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Somebody they're like, I I like to think, and it was like Sarah. I'm like, I like to think I'm Sarah, but I'm really this lady, and it was a junk lady. But I didn't she's a junk lady, but it was really her, and I'm like, that's stupid. Oh yeah. I'm just owning it at this point. Yeah, but you know, it's like we could try, but it it does sneak up on you, and before you know it, it's just what it is. Like, it's fine, it's okay. You know, I mean, we're not hurting anybody, we're just piling it on, we're not hurting anyone. No one else has been involved. So yeah, it's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Because it'd be fun, especially like a saying after this book. If you did do like that book to extend on those things, like where you see people, like because I know my chart's always like a hot mess, like with where my moon is because first moon tenth house, but then the next the 11th house is my chiron and my north node in the same house.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Oh, okay. Oh, that's like a lot of like intense business happening.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Oh, it is extremely intense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Yeah, for sure. No, and I and I do, and I definitely want to. So I'm hoping at some point, at some point to revisit that. They like to have these things spaced out, so I'm like, fine. Cause I'm like ready, right going in there, like, no, no, no. Let's, you know, try this out. But and I do have a couple of decks going, so I got, you know, got that going on. So I'm excited about that. But the goblin one is definitely like very goblin from labyrinth inspired. And the artist for that, she's doing a great job. And I did post a couple, I do have a couple of cards on there, and I do. I'm gonna post a couple, I just got a couple more, so I'll probably wind up posting a couple more soon. It's been a lot of moon stuff lately, so it'll be a nice little change. Like, yeah, it's so crazy, like when you're just promoting stuff because it's like for you, you know, you've been doing it for so long, and you know, it's been a couple years for me, and and then you have to like promote it. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So it is it's funny. The internet is a thing. It's it's an interesting monster.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Yes. It really yeah, it really is. It yeah. So I feel bad with people like creators trying to put it out there and you're going up against AI and then the um bot, whatever, bot advertisement. Sorry, I couldn't think of the word.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it is, there's a lot. And even if, you know, now just the AI, some of the AI advert advertisements are like people, and you you can't tell the difference. Like, even my husband is like, he'll show me something and be like, is this AI? And I can tell right away. I'm like, yes, that's AI. He's like, really? I'm like, yeah, but there's even been times where I'm like, I have to watch it a couple times, which gives them money, you know, and then it is in my head. I'm like, well, that's kind of annoying, but I need to figure this out. Like, it's yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's getting like so good, but you know, there's also, you know, again with the AI deck, I'm not a proponent of AI decks. I'm not, I, you know, people, oh, it's like it's my, you know, I'm not gonna buy an AI deck. That's all. If people are gonna do what they're gonna do, and then I'm not telling people how to feel, what to think, all of that, but I do feel that they need to research it and understand how it works and and what you know the process is. Like, because even like I was saying before, that one guy on Amazon had there's no possible way to write 20 books. No, and they're like 200 page books, you know. Um, you know, like my book is I think my book's like three, I think I I got like 85,000 words or something. Like my book's like yeah, just about 300 pages. There's no way that you can write a book 300 pages, no, 20 of them in a year, yeah, yeah. And I think that's important for people to look at because even like I've seen on Etsy and stuff like with tarot decks and and Lenarman decks, they have like 50 of them on there. Yes, like there's no way that you could possibly do that in a year, there's just not, yeah, and and I think some people are like, oh well, it's cute and I like it, and blah blah blah. And it's like, oh, okay, fine, but please just think about where that's coming from. And there's been artists that we've wanted, so Llewellyn will help find the they they find the artists for the depths. They're one of the publishers that they source the artist, and then they give me a couple, and I, you know, one, two, three, best to least. But there's been a lot of them that we've loved the work and we want to do, but they just they aren't even doing art full time anymore because it's not worth it for them. So then I can't have this person who I love their work do this deck or commit to a deck because it is a commitment, you know, it's 79 pieces of art. Because they can't they can't take the time to do that because they they have to do something else now because they're not selling and how they used to. And I think that people need to really kind of pay attention to that, you know, even when they're buying the the written books and and all of that, like what it's actually it's easy for you, it's cheap for you, it's you may like aesthetically how it looks, but when it comes down to there's nothing to it. Like I'm working with my artist on my decks, and we're talking about, you know, the different clothing and the different, there's just so much energy that goes into it. And then I feel like that point too that makes the reading even better because like you know that somebody's putting their heart into it. It isn't just let me type in a few things and see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

Yeah, no, it's yeah, no, it's exactly true. Because we had we a couple artists on here too, like talking about that with their work that it takes months, months just to do like one card, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

Yeah, no, absolutely. Like I get I'll get up for the goblin, she'll do three at a time, and it's usually like four, six months, you know, sometimes before I get those three, and and it it does take a lot of time. And if anybody's popping them out that fast is just just like the books, there's just yeah, you're just putting in prompts, and you might be able to write a really good prompt and it might come out how you want, but there's an artist whose livelihood you just kind of trashed for that, you know. Yeah, I mean, literally, like there's I like I said, there's been a couple of artists that I really love, and I have not been able to work with them because they just can't commit to that full time because it's just not it's just not gonna make them money. And they and the end of the day, they are getting paid for a service, you know, and they do need to make money, you know, and that's just even that goes into the tarot readers and stuff now. You have the or the spell which is you know, an Etsy that they're trying to get rid of, which is ruining it for everybody. But some people are putting in, you know, oh, do a this person's asking about this, this, and this. Give me a reading for them, and it's popping it out, and there you go. And you're like, but wait, what, what? Like to me, that's wild. It's wild. I'm just like, this is crazy talk right here. Like, this is I was at a conference once, and the subject, this one person was talking about was using AI in your tarot business. Yeah, I already had an issue with the uh title. I was just like, oh boy. And you know, again, you know, I'm not trying to tell people what to do. Everybody's gonna do what they're gonna do, you know, whatever. I didn't go to it, I just couldn't because I know again, Aries, I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut. So I really is for everyone else's safety. It's probably best they didn't go to that. So I I noted that it happened and I talked, you know, to the people that organized it, and I was like, all right, it's really interesting choice. And you know, and I'm trying not to be like, I'm trying not to be a jerk about it, but it's really hard, you know. Again, this is what I do forever. Like, and this is this is you know, she's saying basically it's okay to use AI for your reading. So I'm talking to this one older woman who COVID happened and this was a little bit after COVID. So she felt like after COVID, she kind of lost her spark with tarot reading, and she was trying to like bring it up. And I said, All right, you know, and she was asking my opinion, and I'm like, do this, this, this. She's like, well, I went to that class about using AI in your tarot business. And she said, I can just use AI for my my readings for my clients. And I was like, I'm like, okay. Like, do you want my real opinion? Or do you want my very nice fluffy opinion? You know, and she's like, no, no, tell me, tell me. And I did, and I told her, I said that it's not you giving the reading. What's the point of doing that for what 20 bucks? Because you know, she's giving like cheap readings or whatever. I'm like, why? Like, how would that, you know, if you have to even go and she's like, well, then she's told me that I can just go in and edit it after, then what's the point? Then just pull out some cards and do a reading. If you don't want to type it, do voice text. Like that's all you gotta do, you know. Like instead of what's the point of doing an AI tarot reading and then tweaking it afterwards, just do it. Like, I feel like it's like extra steps, but then she's like, Yeah, but I lost my spark with the reading. Well, then you know what? Then maybe you need to take time, focus on tarot again, go back to basics, go back to the beginning, read a tarot book, pull a card a day, start there instead of jumping back in and and doing that if you don't feel ready.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:21

Because yeah, that was a frustrating moment. It really was, and that person is now kind of like disappeared into the other, which we knew it would happen. We we knew that would happen, you know, because that's not gonna last.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

No, the AI, no, no, no, yeah, no, and that's why I don't even like like you know, the talk to textile people do it, but if someone wants like a reading that just is delivered to them, I like Marco Polo. I don't know if you've ever used that where you just marco Marco Polo the reading to them, so it's still you talking and then it's that back and forth, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

Right, right. Oh, okay, like the okay, just like a conversation, yeah. I mean, I've done like audio readings and stuff before too, like there's ways to do it, you know what I mean? Yeah, and it's like, and even when you're doing it in that way, you can do the audio reading and listen back. And and does it sound how you want it to sound? If not, redo it, you know, like you're you have options. It's I just feel like instead of just typing it into to spot and letting it do a reading, like there's no nuance, it's no feeling. It's just they're taking keywords from what you put in and popping out a card that relates to that somehow, which most of the time doesn't, but yeah, no, you know, yeah, and that's even worse if you're asking them to pick the cards.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Like, I thought you just meant they typed in like King of Swords. This is what does that mean? But asking them to pull the card like that, oh yeah, that's even worse.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:48

Yes, this is the woman told her she can just put in the queerance question and ask it to do a reading based off that. And I was like, please do not do that. Yeah, that's if anything, if you feel like you're in a slump, if you feel like your readings are off, you know, ask somebody to just like a friend, you know, ask somebody like, hey, can I just do some practice readings? Like, or reach out to somebody. There's plenty of like even like on the websites, like the different things, like people will have like practice Tuesday, and you can practice doing readings with other people and stuff like that. You know, I mean, there's definitely ways to go about it. So to just ask it, it wasn't even the person didn't even pull out cards, like it was they just said put in the question and just that's what the reading is and give it to the person.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:41

See, yeah, but you know, feeling no, that's so much better because that's like takes out all the magic because you're intuitively pulling cards. There might be a flyaway card, or there might be like a card that flips out with one, like you're because even if you're not that great at working card, the biggest thing is pulling the cards and laying them, and then you know, that's what it is, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:04

Because it's always like you pull out your cards, and there's always that pause as you're like picking up the energy and you're seeing like what do we have here? kind of thing, right? So if you're just like putting the prompt in, like you just eliminating all of that, like the whole energy, like there's no energy to it. It's it's literally nothing, you know. You also just get a fortune cookie and open that, and that's even more intuitive. Exactly, exactly the magic eight ball, yeah. Right, like I think I'd rely on that more than I would put it into the chat bot to tell you it's crazy. It it's it's wild, it's wild, like what uh what people are what they're doing and what they're saying, and and you know, thankfully I haven't seen that person and any anything else, or she had some deck that she did that had the like keywords and like the meanings on them, which those decks aren't my favorite. No, don't love them. I I understand the point of them, but I don't love them. And when I teach Tara, I'm like, you get your own set of cards and write in the margins in pencil because it's gonna change. Yeah, you know, if if you really feel like you want to write some keywords, I always tell them take a pencil, write it around the edges on the white part, you know, in the border. But I feel like when the meanings are on the cards like that, it kind of locks you into that. And there's no, like it kind of blocks your intuition at that point. And you get like you can't, because it says, Oh, this says this means blah blah blah blah. Okay, that's what it means. And meanwhile, it doesn't. I mean, how many times have we pulled cards that you just like in in your intuition's like this is what this means in this situation, but it's not the textbook meaning, you know? Oh, I mean, that happens all the time, and it's like you're totally bypassing all of that if you're just relying on whatever that is, and that's that person's perception of what that card meaning is.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:59

Exactly. No, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:01

You lose that too, you know, it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:04

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like if Bjorn, he says he's waiting room, but either way, he'll have to figure out his business. But he always says the same thing, like, you know, when a card could mean red, but then there's scarlet, there's burgundy, there's like a million different ways to go off of that red, you know, on what your intuition is.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:24

No, absolutely, and really what it means to you and what red means to you. Some people see red and they're like, Whoa! Some people see red and they see power, some people see red and they see comfort. So it again, and that's what like even when you're doing a reading, like if somebody sees the butterfly in the card, to me, it might just be a butterfly, but to you, it might be, oh, my grandma Nelly said that anytime you see a butterfly, I'm around you, right? So it just like by doing that, it just takes it away. And like throwing in the AI is not gonna know that, you know. So it's crazy. It's it is, it's it's kind of crazy with all of that. Oh no, it a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, I don't like even, yeah. It's people are getting, yeah, too much with that. I remember someone was saying that somebody just type into chat GPT, I think it was what teach me tarot. Like, and it's like, oh, because now you're talking about it's like, yeah, yeah, bypassing people. When he said that, I was like, oh my god, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:23

I know, that's painful. That's painful. Yikes, yeah. I don't recommend that. I don't recommend that. No, like there's so many, yeah, no, there's so many books. There's so many people that want to teach it. There's so there's so much, there's just there's no need for that. I mean, yeah, it's the quick, quick way, but you're not even learning it. You're it's not even gonna be what you want it to be anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:48

Yeah, yeah. I still feel like there's room too for tarot because I was doing this so oh, the equinox reading at this bar, they were doing an event, and I was busy like the entire time. But every single person who came up, and there was like it was from like six to two in the morning or something, and every single person, it was their first reading. Like, but that's the thing, is that it you still have that interest, you know. That's so that's why like your books are so important, you know what I mean, to start with and not googling it and not putting in there, but actually going to the source of books to learn these things, to get the deck and learn these things. That's why I love you know, writers like you that come out with these this knowledge, because they're still people where this is their first dive into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

Right. And it, you know, and it leaves it open to interpretation and and how you want to work with it. And it gives you the option so that you could kind of, you know, it's like the choose your own adventure books, I always say. You know, I love those. I love those. And it's really like, are you going to page 32 or are you going to page 47? And you get to choose and you get to do that. And you know, we all went to both pages to see what was the better outcome. I mean, don't lie, we all did it. And so, but then you can do that and you can check it out and see, and then reset if it doesn't, if it's not how you're you're wanting it to go. And I think that's that's a part of it. And that's if you don't, if you just throw it into a a Google search or whatever, you're losing that that choice. You're losing giving yourself choices, and that's how you learn and that's how you grow. It's by choosing things. And if if you just pop something in and just says, This is it, and you go off with it, you're losing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:24

Yeah, yeah. Yes, that's yeah. It's crazy. I know it is like, well, that's yeah, definitely a deck. I'm actually looking to to choose your own adventure deck based off the books.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

They do have one, they did make one. That inside editions, they do all those decks, they have the license for all that, like they have all the the Disney decks and stuff, and I usually don't want them. Oh, they're not good, okay. I wanted to love so much because that's labyrinth, but I it's okay. Like the guidebook, Minerva Senegal or whatever. She writes a guidebook, switch. The guidebooks I don't mind so much, but a lot of times I don't know who decides. I don't know if the artist decides because usually the art's done first and then she writes the book for it. So it's not as collaborative as other decks, but it's I don't know who decides what the images are going to be on the cards. I don't know if that's up to the artist or the inside editions, like Disney tells them this is what you need to put on the cards, and they just draw it. I feel like I do feel like that's kind of how it is. But all of they they have like the Nightmare for Christmas deck, they have the Labyrinth deck, they have, I mean, all of them, the Supernatural deck. They I think the two-year-old advanced adventure garbage trail kid deck, like they have the licenses for all of those. But I mean, I probably wouldn't, I would they're good to take pictures of for online. But I mean, I would maybe use them for myself. I have a couple of them. I probably use them for myself, but I probably wouldn't use them for clients because I feel like the the images sometimes don't match the cards. How you would think, you know. I think in the labyrinth one, I don't have the deck with me, but like Hoggle, you know, the the main yeah, his I do like he's like on a weird card. He's on a weird card, and I don't love where so it kind of throws me off. Yeah, so honestly, in my goblin deck, in my goblin deck, I have the four of pentacles, it's kind of like a hoggle-ish looking, like it's not, but they could be brothers. Yes, I love that, yes. So I have like a lot of that, and and in my in my goblin deck too, I have a lot of I call them eye tubers because I don't know the name to give them. Then they're like the eye plants, you know, like in the labyrinth, the eye plants, like there's a lot of those throughout my deck too, because I just love them. Yes, I love them. So there's like a lot of like you know, like borrowed, but not has nothing to do with them. Has nothing to do with them, no issues here, no, no, but it's definitely like how you see it inspired, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

How you see it. In my show, I saw it, and that's that's yeah, how you see it. Yeah, definitely it's how you see it. Yeah, like I said, yeah, we'll definitely post all of that stuff. I'm still, you know, with I post all of it, like interpretations and all that stuff and giveaways. So yeah. Oh, yeah, you're always doing something, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:27

That's so much work though. Like, I don't think people realize like all the posting on social media and stuff, like how much work it is. It's a lot of business. Yes, yeah. And when I do follow, please always give a like.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

Yeah, you do the Substack because I follow you on Substack. That that's like the new thing now, Substack.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:46

It is, it is. I'm I'm still kind of getting used to it and kind of feeling it out and all that, but yeah, I'm like, oh great, something else to post on. I just want like one service, like you could put your post and then it pops it out to everything, but I've not yet found that. There are a couple out there, but they don't pop out to who I want them to, and then the way they do it is kind of weird. So it's like you're going on each one and posting.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:13

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. That's I feel like you it always works out.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:19

It always works out though.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:20

It does, it's like that balance, you know. Okay, yeah. So yay, thank you so much for being here. And uh we'll like in this comments and in this link and everything, you'll find your pages, your Amazon, because everyone should be grabbing your deck before, you know, the first edition deck, you know, that special first edition before it goes there, and then the everything, you know. So we'll be posting all of it so you can dive in. And I'm sure you have on your page too talking about all the moon cycles and like the tarot raids. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:51

I got all the stuff on there.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:53

Yes. So everyone should like, follow, subscribe, support artists, support creators. Yes, all the things. Yeah, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:02

I really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:04

Yeah, we do love having you. Yeah, so definitely. And then um, yeah, we will yeah, definitely do this again and then follow up for live. Perfect. Sounds good. Thank you. Thanks.