Freemasonry Origins of the Craft

In Part 2 of our Freemasonry series, we dive deeper into the personal journey that led today's guest to become a Freemason. We explore the difference between traditional and progressive branches of Freemasonry, why symbolism and mythology played such an important role in his path, and how people can find the right Masonic organization for their own interests.

The conversation also tackles some of the biggest misconceptions surrounding Freemasonry, including conspiracy theories, the Illuminati, George Washington, political involvement, secrecy, and why the fraternity has been misunderstood throughout history. Rather than focusing on myths, this episode offers an honest discussion about Freemasonry's purpose, its emphasis on personal growth, and the role ritual and symbolism play in human development.

Whether you're simply curious about Freemasonry or looking for a thoughtful perspective beyond the headlines, this episode offers an engaging look into one of the world's most misunderstood traditions.

Themysterychannel.org

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hey! Welcome everyone. We're here with the second, you know, second part of our series for the Freemasonry.

SPEAKER_04 0:18

Hello everyone. Thank you for uh watching again. I hope that you somehow saw the first episode. Yeah, we also already explained the the concept. So we do like a series of like seven interviews about Freemasonry. And Morgan is somewhat free to ask whatever question that she wants, and I will see that I answer the questions that I'm allowed to answer. So and I already like explained in the previous uh episode, you should really watch that because it's like the framework of it all. Because I think you know, I doubt that the world needs like a parrot. So why should I parrot something that's already been said over and over and over again? So, but of course, some things have to be said if you talk about a certain subject. But you know, what I want to achieve is that I somehow explain Freemasonry and comprehendable concepts that you know out of your life because it's I cannot explain something that you are not part of. That's what I say, like the first episode. So imagine that I have to explain to you the game of basketball once you've never been into a in the arena, once you all the only thing you saw is like a snippet of uh of an action of a player throwing a ball. Uh so it's like difficult, same with like freelancering. But uh, what I want to achieve is that I can explain the concept but other comprehendable concepts that you know out of your or that you can really grab. So yeah, everything that I say again is uh I speak on my own title. So I'm not speaking on behalf of the organization, nor my mother lodge, nor on other lodges. I visit pure on my own title, so everything that I say can be either stupid, probably or valued, maybe valued somewhere in between.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

No, it's always really shoot more than what do you want to find out?

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Just to kind of recap from last time, just to do the segue, is we really didn't address like why you became a Freemason, like what drew you to become that, how you became it, exactly how, you know what I mean? That's a great thing. The how, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Yeah, but you know, in my case, it it was probably hard to not become a Freemason. Um as you already know, I as a kid I was really obsessed with with uh with symbols, you know. Uh and that started with with simple things, you know. I had like uh like I was back in the days and in the 70s and early 80s, people had like an encyclopedia. You know, there were like very expensive things, you know, that that was like the the pre-Google. So everyone had to buy like in Google uh books often with like uh a leather cover, you know. Yeah, and they were in yeah, were the old all the the flags of the countries, for instance, you know, and I somehow knew them all right away. I had like an interest all this insignia from the firewall, or for instance, from the army. I was always like interested in the story behind that. No, yeah, that was one thing. Another thing was that my father was like a comic book uh collector, you know, and we have like in Belgium a really culture of comic books, you know. There's even like the Belgian school of comic books, you see, and a lot of uh comics that my my father uh somehow collected were these Belgian comics, you know, and and there were like series of like Torga, you know, Torga as like the hammer god, uh you see, like uh, and there were other like uh asterisk, you know, about the ghost, you know, and that's our legend because we are somewhere where they see it as like the interesting point between the German and Celtic world, but as there's already like a lot of overlap since we are somehow the heirs of like in uh Indo-European original, mythological and linguistical culture, anyway. So this really so I this interest like symbols, but also about uh mythology, you see, myths and Celtic tribes, Germanic tribes, Roman army. So I was always like really invested, also like warfare, you know, it's like like a little boy, you know, uh with tin soldiers and all that. And later on, I get, and even though I am raised in like a uh really atheist milieu, I was sort of always like intrigued by spirituality, you know, and things with like uh yeah, suiting and and you know, uh rituals uh alike, but yeah, this was not a thing, you know, within my family. Of course, later on, so all this interest stayed. I got to be talking about this subject, yeah. As you know, where you know me from uh the cardomancy world, you know, talking about uh symbols on cards, yeah, and I always was like in those millions. So we had like uh talking about uh philosophy, spirituality, symbolism. Of course, these were also like the climates that uh Freemasons frequented, for instance. So, and especially when I came in those international uh worlds, a lot of people were Freemason, or they had like a mental recon came out of Freemasonry. So I always somehow knew what it was, but it to be honest, it did not really attract me. Yeah, because yeah, when I watch it from the outside in, it was uh especially gravitating about uh Judeo Christian symbolism. But I did not know much back in the day, but from the artwork in actually, I think it's like interesting what these guys are doing, it's like mysterious, but yeah, I don't know because I like symbols, but I'm not really like interested in and really Judeo Christian uh symbolism pursuit yet at that time. So, but whenever I came in in these environments, people often said, Okay, go on, but you have to be a Freemason, you see, you have to come with me and be a member of a large. So then I asked for further explanation, you see, and then I found out, you know, we have to zoom in on this topic, but not for now because it's like a big thing. Then I find out that there are like two ways uh of going about it regarding Freemasonry called like regular Freemasonry and a regular Freemasonry. Of course, I think people now who don't know about this subject might uh receive a regular some uh how as a pejorative as clandestine. So that's not the case. But the idea is that the uh regular Freemasonry is what I somehow uh said the previous time. There are certain rules, so you have to accept a uh pressive createurs or a creative principle, whoever that is, as a rule, so no politics, so no discussion discussion about politics, and no discussion about religion. You see, that's like the original Freemasonry, and that is like somehow the center of union. So they often people who ask me, they were somehow much more engaged in the irregular Freemasonry, and what made them uh all of a sudden irregular in history is that they wanted to take a stance politically, and that they wanted to somehow make up for themselves if they want to accept a creative principle, you see. So therein somehow came a schisma so between regular and irregular. But you know, I I don't think that I really like these words, you know, they don't cover all it really is, I think, because they are not like clandestine, but you have to see it as understand through misery as well is your focus. But I was not interested back in the day because often they yeah, wanted to talk about politics, or you know, and I was not interested in that. See, I was interested in politics, but in that overall concept of geopolitics, you know, being interested in warfare and all that. And when I then somehow asked those people, okay, but where what what things do you discuss about politics, even and and do you understand geopolitics? And and then yeah, they said no. So I so I was thinking, okay, but what will I discuss? And I'm not even like interested in politics, you know, yeah. Uh nowadays, certainly not nowadays, because um, anyway, so I was never like intrigued by that. I thought I thought it was like interesting, and also like in the tarot world, as you know, a lot of people, especially in the era of esoteric uh tarot, were Freemason, you know, like uh Edward Waite, Crowley, but Crowley, you know, he was like really irregular because he somehow got almost 33 degrees on one day somewhere in Mexico and they pull out somewhere in the backstream. This was like a really interesting era. So somewhere in the back of my mind, I had this idea of okay, that's like interesting, but it does not attract me. And you know, and and I don't want to get if I get involved, it should at least be have like spiritual age because that was like a world I wanted to explore because that was not something I knew, but that somehow triggered. So, but again, I have nothing against people who are like in political Freemasonry or whatever, because I know a lot of them like in person. You see, there's also like this interesting uh thing. So one of my best friends was like also like a Freemason, his father is like also like a Freemason, but he's like with the Grand Prix of Belgium, you know, and we have like the most uh great conversations, you know, but they father and son have like a different perspective on Freemasonry, each good in his own life, you know, because uh is like a real intelligent guy, you know, it's like uh a lot to do with economics, you know, politics, you know, a really intellectual guy, but that's like an auto-focus on Freemasonry, you know, and that's like good in his own. We would not feel good in his lodge, while he would not feel good in ours, you know. That's like good. I like this diversity, long time short, but then all of a sudden, and everything uh you're with me, so I would think that it would come in handy since I always had like this interest in like Indo-European mythology, you know, the Romans, the Germans, the Celts. Then all of a sudden, you know, this book came to me and it's called that's like a Dutch book, the North European Mystery, you know, and this book somehow claims that uh modern Freemasonry is like, of course, natural hair of the uh medieval guilds, but from uh the Germanic uh era, so the ballhutter, so uh the the building yeah, lodges so it is like a lodge, and that it comes from the German, the North German bonds initiates to root, and then I want to think, Oh ho, now now it's getting interesting. You see, that was then I want to presume more in on that item, you know, and that's like a real popular item, and even like because this book is like uh very old for like previous centuries, but even like in modern times, then we have like uh the book of Armit Istad is somehow saying the same. So the three masons in the Viking Age. You see, but it's like a modern thing. You should really have this book. I think it's been yeah, this is a reprint, but I think this book all runs for somewhere 2019. I don't know for sure. Oh you see, but this was like a real interesting thing for me. Then I got to investigate this, but since I already was somehow seeing spirituality in like how you have to call it the new hidden societies, you know, but but these are like after like a very intellectual group, you see, uh, especially like in Bangladesh, and that parted me are to more works in that regard, and there were also like Freemasons, but they were like regular Freemasons, you see, and from there it's really got fast, you see, and then I was like triggered. I wanted to find out if it's like really true, you see, and then I could keep true with and I got somehow to explain me the synchricity, uh, for instance, you know, that uh certain concepts merge so that for instance, you know, even concepts, you know, somehow got soaked up and and and Christian symbolism, you see, and that's also like really interesting. That's also what happened during medieval time, you know, and that's also that you can certainly recognize in like the tradition of the guilds, but also in like uh initiation, you know, because in the European culture something really interesting and very layer. So yeah, and from there on I got really interested and uh became a formation.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

That's interesting too, because on the regular and irregular, because if somebody like you said, you were interested because of that regular one and you wouldn't be do well in somebody else's lodge. What if somebody's coming in? Do you find where they would go correctly? Do they have to find where it is? Because I know some people if that they decide that lodge isn't for them or that way of doing things like the irregular isn't the way for them, and then they just lose interest and walk away. Is there like how would you work that out?

SPEAKER_04 13:09

You know, for us, you know, regular free. You can talk about it. Yeah, yeah, I can talk about it. That's cool. Yeah, sure. These are things that should be said, you know, and I think that that's good to have like cooperation with people who are like interested in like Freemasonry that you also know, okay, but he does not fit within our organization. But you know, let's hand this guy over to another organization, you know. That's also like interesting. But if you don't have like any spiritual aim or if you are not open for spirituality, yeah, then you rather should not be like a member of the regular logic, you see, because you would be getting probably disappointed, or you might maybe find something in there, you know. But if you look at that statistically, at that that would not be happened too often, you see, and and I so I think it's like it's good that there is like a certain diversity, and you know, I I yeah uh for me personally, I can really understand. So the father of my friend, you know, and really see how he is like passionate in his way with his age. So I will never say, okay, but what we do is like the only thing to go. But I think you should choose what you want to uh somehow, yeah, but what attracts you authentically. That's what I really find. So I don't put any words in in yeah, your word in comparison, saying, okay, what we do is like better than the arts, yeah, but I am not interested in that kind of Freemasonry. Whilst they can say, okay, but I am not interested in your kind of Freemasonry. You know, and that's also like where the schisma was, you know, but it's like so uh such an interesting evolution because then people all of a sudden they charge and they want to be uh hyper-progressive, you know, and they throw everything overboard, you know, and then you can see it after a time, people go back radical to the source. You know, that's that's what always happens, you know, they swam out, they calibrate, they between you. Yeah, that's also the human condition somehow.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Because that's interesting, on why, like for your journey, you wanted to, you know, be there at first. I mean, you you know, because you didn't want to be in that one and did your research. But like nowadays, like why somebody should join, but if they're not getting into the right place, that's something that you would help them with, or they would have to discover these things on their own. Like, why would they want to become a Freemason at first, but then making sure they get to the right place?

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Yeah, but you know, nowadays it's it's like easier, you know. Back in the days, uh this uh I think it's it's like really an American creed of if you want to be a Freemason, or how can you become a Freemason? So ask one.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:49

Not very a sandwich pedal, but I am like a Freemason, so that would be crazy. So yeah, but if you know someone or someone's uncle or you have um it also depends on which country that you are, yeah, what is like happening there? How uh but nowadays, if you want to become a Freemason, you somehow have like an ID on if if this matches your ID, so and then you can visit like uh several organizations. There are several organizations, you know, you have like regular Freemasonry, you also have like uh women Freemasonry, yeah, like mixed Freemasonry, you know, that there's a whole palette of of uh of Freemasonries that you can choose. Yeah, so people know that. So if you want to be in a lodge with like women only, so if you want to become a Freemasonry, yeah, and you want to do that with women only, yeah, you should visit the the women's lodge. If you want to do mixed Freemasonry with men or women, you know, you should uh choose for mixed Freemasonry, or you choose you know, uh to be uh a Freemason only with uh males, and choose if you want to do this regular, old school, or like progressive way, let's let's call it that way.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:02

So and and nowadays there's a lot of information, you see. And if you are like a hardcore atheist and you would visit the the website of the regular largest, you know, and there you read, okay, but there is one thing you have to accept, like a creative principle. Probably you would not accept that. So you would yeah, look further to to other organizations that that somehow or if you want to do political uh things, you know, then you should go to an organization who do that, I find.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Does that take away though from the core meetings? Because you know, it always starts with the traditions, the core, like where it started, what it did, and then moving it into something else, it becomes something else, then that's that's of course perspective, Mart.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

That's of course perspective. I choose to be a regular Freemason, especially for that, because I really for myself or whatever that's worth value tradition. I see merits in doing these rituals by staying in there, by doing an arts where you stand for, you know, that but yeah, I don't say that it is like better than someone else does, like in another organization. I'm not saying that by being political correct, I say that really out of my heart. I'm not interested in that art of freedom. So see, but I don't say that's like not good. I say that's just what I want to experience for myself. If this would be the other way around, if I would want to uh take a political stance or whatever, you know, I I would also do that. So I would people advise to do what you want as long as you do it like decent, you know. And I would hope that everyone would want to become like a Freemason, even though where you put your focus on, because the core value is that you somehow become a better person, so we would all benefit from that. See, and regularly creatively, this idea is okay, we also build on society, but first build on yourself so that you are somehow like a stone in the temple of humanity, you see, with this idea, and I probably will not fit like in English, but a Dutch saying is that we say if you clean the spot before your house, yeah, and everyone does that, the whole street is clean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This idea, whilst of course, back in the days where the schisma really came, because they were also like like in difficult times, you know, uh during enlightenment, and people said, Okay, but now the community needs us, we need to somehow step away from the dogmatic idea of Catholic Church and all that, you know, and there was something to say for that. I can understand it, and then it would say, Okay, but we have to be of use to the people and not be just like spiritual, here we have to do more, you know. And in that era, I can really understand it, you know, and then they wanted me to start to take a stance in that. See, and then you know, the the regular grant laws they said, okay, but you guys on the continent, you are not uh working according to the constitutions. You see, and then they lost regularity. See, this was a thing on the continent. You see, and later on during enlightenment, they also wanted to take freedom of thought. So they said we don't accept the idea that we have to accept a creative principle. You see, but it is also like an era of thinking, you know, getting rid of the dogmatic church uh and and the clerical system, which was also due. You see, I I don't say that they were not right in certain years, yeah. But that's also like back in those days, you know, and then after a time, people you know it got way too loose. Then you have always like a way reactionary fraction. See, and they said, okay, we want to go back to the roots, and then they got uh again uh accepted by the by uh the Grand Lodge in London, you know, and then you can claim you're already regular Freemasons, but that's really yeah, with rules, you see. Yeah, yeah, with the rules according to the constitution, you know, and um it's a different approach. So, but I don't I don't like regular and irregular, I think it it might better be like traditional, yeah and traditionally emotionally, and I really like to send with you know all that political blah blah. Don't discuss politics, don't discuss religion, be there, do something spiritual, you know, engage in a philosophical way like that. Yeah, that that's what we like, yeah. Yeah, everyone is doing good stuff in his own light, you know. Uh that that's like the big advantage if you take enough uh of whatever is left that you do in Freemasonry. If you do it right, you will be a better person. So I give green light to all Freemasons, you know, but I also give hope that we stand for each other that we can choose the way we want to work.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 21:53

You know, and there is already diversity in the palette, so it's like good. There is something for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

That's why your questions Yeah, yes, no, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

It's just interesting. Cause it's always interesting like how people do that where they feel like they have to change something with the times. Like, because obviously with your your thing, you're still everyone still does politics, just not inside the thing. So you can step outside. But then, like you said, the enlightenment era, they decided as a group they were just gonna become involved to push. So it's like they could still done those things while staying true to the traditions, but for some reason felt they needed to bring the organization out into it.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Like, yeah, you know, but that that's also, you know, there was also uh you know, and how can I put on my uh self-proclaimed anthropological hat? That's that's also what happens, you know, with with revolutionary fractions, you know, that's also always like like a small minority, yeah. And there is this idea, uh catch somehow fire, you know. But back in the days, there was we were like a standoff between the cleric, the clerical Catholic Church, you know, and the Freemasons, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, church really pulled like a stunt in Belgium, they should never have been done. Because all of a sudden they said, okay, but if you are like a Freemason, you get excommunicated. Back in the days, can you understand? You know, 19th century, that that that was a lot, you know, and that was not a good strategy. Because if you know people, and I know I don't know if you can relate to that, most people I think they are like somehow neutral, they are somehow gravitating around the center, you know, out of safety or whatever, you know. But you have always like small fractions on the outskirts, you know, trying to somehow get a grip on the mass. See, yeah, then all of a sudden, you know, the church does something, yeah, not so smart because you have to have this big middle field of people who are reasonable. I can imagine that they sure wanted to go to church, but they maybe wanted to experience religion in a more free way, also not going each week, but uh still doing things with that. By saying something like that, if you are still like a free mason, you get excommunicated. So then you somehow put the most reasonable Mason before a choice, even if he is like still a follower of the church or whatever, you see, and then all of a sudden you black or white, but 80% is great. See, but then you have to make this choice, yeah. And also thinks that, yeah, and of course, then it gets personal, you see, and then you get uh polemics, uh, and yeah, you know, there were also like already like uh papal tools, uh you know, from art of wrong that they want to somehow forbid Freemasonry or go against that, you know, and there also erupts all those conspiracy theories like uh Leo Taxil, uh you know, uh doing the most blatant lies about Freemasonry, but first doing this about Catholic Church. Can you imagine what a what a crazy guy this by like stirring on people, you know, with manipulation, you know, and like a sick mind, you know. But there were also other things, you know, like the famous the other thing on conspiracy theory, you know, the the the Illuminati. So people take Freemasons from the Illuminati, you know. But Illuminati, uh the interesting thing is for all American listeners, so they got somehow they came to be in in uh 1776. And what says uh the that date to you?

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Yeah, that yeah, there's independence, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

American independence, which you have uh filed uh like uh just like the 4th of July.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah, just happened, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:38

That was the exact date when the Illuminati somehow were came to be. So there are people also make like a post-hoc fallacy with a nation, okay. But this somehow hangs together. And do you see on the dollar there's like the Freemason eye, you know, and the pyramid, yeah. Like, you know, the public father's day where some of so this has this edge of post-hoc fallacy thinking, you know, whilst the all seeing eye is not really a Freemason Freemasonic symbol, you know, it's it's the eye of providence. So yeah, we use that in rituals, but it's an already existing thing, you see, and then that pyramid is come out of the Egypt mania, which came uh also from that. You see, but you can really explain this with logical explanations, but people somehow yeah, if they cannot grasp it, they mythologize it. Yeah, yeah. There is always, yeah, the this idea, and then what we talked about like in the previous uh episode, that we work with mysteries, you see, and then they say, Okay, but they cannot say what you do. Then you somehow get this idea, okay. But this is like danger, which I in some way can understand, but that's also my aim that I want to explain without me jerking, you are not dangerous, yeah. Because what we do is like yeah, it's something that archaic societies always have done. Yeah, but it's also yeah, these conspiracy theories, yeah, you know, and they are like interesting, they are like interesting because people want to find out about you know, and and how famous are uh the moves of Dan Brown and you know and Dan Brown, he was like uh he did really good promotional work for Freemasonry because he ended the thirst for mystery or the thirst for uh second wave or third waves and esoteric uh ideas.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah, yeah, he's good. Yeah, he has that, he has a way with words, definitely. His books are interesting.

SPEAKER_04 27:38

Who who did not love Indiana Jones? Yeah, back in the days, and the quest for the holy grail. You know, I was sitting with my nose against the television whilst my hair would go or the yeah, holy grail or the other one, the cut uh Ark of the Covenant. Yeah, but this this is somehow also like a blueprint, I think, that we have inside of us somehow to resolve the enigmas or resolve the mysteries, yeah. That's yeah, somehow, and you know, yeah, don't underestimate it because that's somehow a meaning. Yeah, because being ritualistic somehow receive esoteric information, the aha moment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, but all all those conspiracy theories, you know, but of course, that there are things happened during history, of course. You know, there are just like people. I'm not the advocate for each individual Freemason. Yeah, no, I I can only stand in for myself, and of course, there are Freemasons who are not good people, just like there are no uh basket players who are not good people, or musicians who are not good people are just like people, yeah. Yeah, this crazy idea that from out of the lodges revolutionary were plant and all that, you know, that's like bang out of the law. That's yeah that's and the best example for that. Whenever there are like big political changes in countries, the lodges suffer from that.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Oh, that's mad.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

And don't forget that we also, you know, have to somehow be under the laws of a certain country. We also pled an oath to the leader of the state, you know, in the tradition, you know, we don't stand above that, you know, and and it is to be able, and and Belgium is like a good example for that. So our first king, King Leopold, he was like a Freemason. Then we also have to think about it because Belgium is like a strange country, you know, it's like uh we have been part of each geopolitical power around us, yeah, yeah. But then all of a sudden, 1930, Belgium comes to be. So it's like a crazy circle around the land somewhere in Europe. You know, we have like three official languages, so we think a little bit of uh German, of uh France, and Bolland, you know, because yeah, before that we are like the Netherlands, you know, and we are like the Sarkan languages, anyway, it's complex. I can let's not make it like a Hindu lesson, yeah. It's fascinating, you know, pre-Mason was already complex enough, but then all of a sudden, you know, the king, King Leopold, he had to unify different cultural fractions, you know, yeah, linguistical, but also political, also economical, you know, it's it's like not so easy. But can you understand that he could make use of already existing constructions to somehow make use of that to hit many birds with one stone to also unify people with the Masonic idea of unification, you know, of taking away what separates us and make stronger that binds us. Yeah, that that's like a really good way to go about. See, and they make really good use of that, also uh with those military lodges, because you know, you don't have to, you should not underestimate what the military does for Freemasonry. So they had like uh mobile lodges also, you know, and doing certain cities uh and all that, but then all of a sudden you also see this that it's getting too big because then Freemasonry is like interesting because a lot of people uh come there often, like okay, the thinkers of society, uh uh the people from science, also people from religion, yeah, people who have something economically to say, you know, uh owners of factories and all that. But can you imagine that all of a sudden this could be dangerous for the powers that be? Yeah, not direct, but if you let to get out of art, yeah, that's I can imagine that for the power step B, that's like that they get like uh on their nerves, and then all of a sudden, you know, once they made use of it first, they said, Okay, but from a certain degree in the army you cannot be a member anymore. You see, they are already uh putting their players back, you see it and restricting it, not like forbidding it, but restricting it in order to get control. You see, we are not a fraction that works on its own, you know, and and we are often like abused and and and and misabused. And you can also understand that you know, in all totalitarian regimes, Freemasonry got forbidden. And especially, of course, during communist time, you know, the first thing that they did is like forbid forbid the logists, you know, and even though, of course, uh, if if we could say this and talk about politics, so there was there was some political influence, of course, during the times that people were fighting for liberal ideas, you know, uh, especially in Belgium, they made sure that there was also like uh free school, so to say, that people would can go to university without pledging it all to a certain religion. No, I think that's something really uh strong and and and a good achievement. But it's also like the proof, yeah. So then they were somehow yeah, uh the legals and the liberal fraction, or even like in the socialist fraction, but they also often got to compete each other because whilst they were like friends in the fight for for the free schools, they were like opposites, like in politics, you know, and their idea and what the state should be, so minimal or maximum influence, you see, and there they often also fell out of each other, you know. That is like crazy because people that that's what happens, but it's also the proof that even you see, like any good reason, okay, but they are really behind communist or socialist plots. You see, but that's also not true because there was socialism, but from the moment got really to the extreme and became communism, they forbid the logics. You see, but I'm not speaking on behalf of any organization of evil mind where I stand really behind that. But now I'm also maybe speaking a little bit on behalf of the irregular fraction because you know we also have to talk the truth. You see, even that they are like apolitical, they are not behind all that things, you know. And the same goes, of course, for for the far right, you know, uh during fascism and all that, you know, not just well forbidden. There comes the Judeo ID, the Judeo ID of world dominance, you know, coming from out of that fraction. You see, but we don't match with totally parry regimes, yeah. You see, yeah, that should also be like a proof of that, you know, left, right, extremist, you know, because we aim for the unification. Yeah, that's also like a spiritual but also practical way of going about it. You see, but of course there are happen things, you know, and also you know, for instance, like in Italy, but also reactionary. So a lot of Freemasons they because there were all of a sudden there was this, you know, Europe is something really strange, you know, it's like wars and inside jobs, and you know, it's like, but all of a sudden, so the French came to play the pause in Italy, yeah, and a lot of Freemasons said, Okay, we have to do something against that, but from out of the lodge, they could not take a political stance. So, a lot of Freemasons back in the day, they had like a French group, a more combatant group, you know, to fight that. You see, those are things that that happen as well. Yeah, yeah, that is not representative of Freemasonry. Yeah, you know, you have to have to say, okay, this is like Freemasonry, and this is yeah, and of course, there won't be misconduct, you know. That would be a blatant lie to somehow claim that uh no Freemason does something wrong, you know, that would be bang out of order, you know. Then you should uh tore and feather me right away because I I cannot even know that, but I I assume it. Yeah, you see, but that's not something that would not happen in another scenes, so uh business or whatever, you see. Yeah, yeah, wherever people are, it's like dangerous that they don't conduct in a way it should be, you know. But if then they did not learn anything from Freemasonry because you had to become a battle man uh someday.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

No, I get that, yeah. That's interesting, then for banning, because going back on that, well, when the independence thing is funny because like that's the big conspiracy theory is they believe George Washington was a Freemason, and that's why he started that whole thing so that they could practice freely. So, like the Illuminati coming at the same time as the George Washington conspiracies, there's a lot there. But also, if you're being banned everywhere though, and I know keeping away from the politics, is there somebody though that advocates for you so that you can not be banned? You know what I mean? So that you could practice freely. I know like a couple of religions have done that, like someone who advocates for that.

SPEAKER_04 36:38

If that makes sense, like no, I I think I don't understand the question.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Well, because if you like you said, if you're not gonna get involved like in politics or anything like that, but yet people are banning you or not allowing, oh, if you're a Freemason, you can't move forward. So they're literally telling you you have to choose between Freemasonry or the support of that, even though you've already pledged it. Is there like a spokesperson that would advocate and be like this is unfair and fight the challenge or fight something like one person? So everyone can still not get involved, but one person can advocate for you? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Yeah, so we have only like official spokesman, so I'm not like an official spokesman. So you know, and with within regular Freemasonry, yeah, that that's like always like easy because we have like the most simple, clear, and workable ideas, so no politics discussion, no religious discussion. So we are like a spiritual movement.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Well, no, yeah, and I got that, but like when people say, Oh, we're gonna ban Freemasons, is that just like you accept it and then don't join it, or does somebody go in there and try and stop that ruling?

SPEAKER_04 37:44

But but nobody, yeah, no, if you know, if if they're like political political changes, you know. Uh for instance, someone yeah, grabs Belgium, you know, and they say, Okay, Freemasonry is forbidden. So we have like a king, but that's like nowadays, like a ceremonial thing, you know, but they take the king off out of the throne, and someone else is going to sit there, marches, for instance. And then they say, Okay, Freemasonry is forbidden, and I'm the boss now. Yeah, then it's forbidden. But then we have to tother, I do will do something in my garden house. Oh, yeah, then bite my brother. You see, but but officially, yeah. If the state says okay, we forbid it for for you know it did it did happen in the past.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, that's what I was asking. I didn't know if there was somebody who decided, like, hey, this is our representative, he's gonna fight it for us, you know.

SPEAKER_04 38:39

Yeah, you know, but but there's also like regulations, you know, in the country. We have also freedom of how you call it freedom of unity. You know, I I think I don't say the right word, freedom of yeah, making a sports club or debate club. You know, these are like free things, you know, they they cannot take that away. And normally they cannot say you have to stop it.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_04 39:02

At least if you're doing not something that is like forbidden or criminal.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Yeah, well, yeah, then you're getting into like yeah, a whole other category of criminal stuff, because obviously no no religion would be containing criminal stuff, yeah. Well, hopefully.

SPEAKER_04 39:15

Yeah, but but can you imagine? That's also, you know, that's also a thing, you know. Uh that's maybe like a strange comparison with powers that be, you know, that that would not be a smart thing to do. Yeah. If you wanted to, or if you have like want to do bad things, why would you join a group that's somehow wrong? Or you see, that's that's not something that you can use if you want to do something wrong. You understand what I mean? Yeah, yeah. If you have like because here my neighbors have like a big tree with cherries. So if you want to pick some cherries, I would not do that with like a lamp on my head, like something I would have to go in the night, you know. Yeah, oh my god, what what a comparison I'm making is anyway. That's what I said, you know. The world doesn't does not need a parrot, you know, and I have to explain it with with comprehendable concept, but I don't know what I achieved with this, but anyway, let me know. But this is the thing, you know, that that would be like crazy, isn't it? If you want to do things wrong, why do we want to belong with a group? That's somehow already in the lens of of uh of people. Like all what I'm saying here again. Next question.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

No, and that so yeah, because it is in the lens of like the public, and it is like something seen, but there's still like so much mystery around it, just like how you become a mason, like and even where did it start? Because that's a huge conspiracy theory, too, on where it officially started. Because like we just talked about, you know, George Washington Illuminati, but like people say Templars and like exactly how it went from like the stonemasons to you know Freemasonry.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

Yeah, we don't there was discussion about that, so we already talked about that previous time. So yeah, yeah. Overall, I believe that you know we are the natural heirs of the medieval uh stone freemasons, yeah, stonemasons guilds, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Yeah, no, I do know that.

SPEAKER_04 41:35

So all of a sudden the narrative goes okay, but uh the numbers were dwindling of those free stone masons, but other people were not like active or operative stone masons, like the spiritual ideas behind it, because I explained the previous episode that like the Metrieval Guilds, they were in a sciatic societies, so don't underestimate. And there they summa because it's like really interesting morning, you know, like geometry and all that, you know, all included, you know, Pythagoras. You know, there are also like you know imagine and myths of the Freemasons, you know, but uh there's also something to say for the mythological history, you see the perennial philosophy and all that, but that's somehow abstracting. We have to talk about that maybe like in the next uh episode uh because the function of myths and all that is really like important if you want to be like a regular traditional Freemason, because that's also why I want to explain the ontology of it all so that you can have the utmost experience and the utmost uh beneficial uh transformative things inside of as a personal developer. Yeah, but overall it's assumed that you know, uh after Renaissance, really in the times of enlightenment, especially at that era, that some uh people who were not operative Masons some uh joined those lodges. This is debated. I have to admit that. Some people say okay, but they started just somewhere, but there is also proof, tiny proof, that it really did happen, that there were lodges, you know, with operative masons who had like a few members who were not operative, you know. Uh but there's also like this idea of of convergent evolution that you also see the during history, yeah. You know, it's like a product of the time, you know, and then it has its its couleur locale. Yeah, but that's the overall idea.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Yeah, I think I didn't get most of it. It kind of like froze for just a second, but I mean I got the majority of what you're saying when you're just saying people join lodges and then came in with the rest.

SPEAKER_04 43:37

Yeah, that they uh that they from from there on somehow, even if they were not active stone builders, yeah, that they from there on, uh and there is proof of that that they have like all also like a few people who are not active Freemasons in the lodge, and but from there on their reason okay, but from there they took over this like an overall idea, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

I cannot know that for sure. But what is for sure that we go further on the regulations, on the myths of those of those old stonemasons guild, that's like a fact, you know. And there's like a spectrum of people thinking, okay, this is what really the case, or it's like I don't know. And but there's also something to say for that we're the heirs of an overall mystery tradition, and this is actually undeniable truth. No, and here in the hair also come like the Templars and all that, which we need to zoom in on the next episode because I have to also give some more context about that. Yes, because and therefore I have to explain what is like mythical history. In order to explain this, I really have to feel more that I have to explain the functionality of myths in general.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Yeah, I think so too, because like you've got the different mythologies because everyone everyone thinks of mythology, not to get abstract, like they think mythology of the gods and goddesses in this story, but really there's like the mythology of a culture, the mythology of like society, mythology of like family, and then your personal mythology that you have yourself, you know.

SPEAKER_04 45:10

And these myths are practical because we have to step in those myths, and how can you step in those myths once and forever? Yeah, to do rituals, yeah, you step inside of that using symbols, using rituals, you know, an archaic, intrinsic way, natural, organic way, yeah. To step in the ontology of life. Is this strange from a ritual standpoint? Yes, it is strange, but from a human standpoint, I it's totally natural. But this was also what I had to somehow understand or grasp, so to experience that really deep me on Freemasonry. You see, because I I was also really raised at theist, you know, and I really struggled with was really much interested in uh spirituality and even like religion. I struggled to somehow really get something out of that. I uh somehow to really force me to believe something, you know, and wanted that. I hoped for it, you see, but I could not easily experience it. So I don't know, I'm like thinking about that it's well, I experienced it. But by being there, being ritualistic, all the puzzles fell to the right place. Yeah, you see, and there was this aha, it was totally different as I could somehow grasp in my narrow mind. You see, and there are there are I really like an advocate for the method, yeah. You know, and I'm all about all about the methods, you know, and but this is like a real archaic method, you know. If I would believe like 2000 years ago, I would be initiated in the Mithras tradition, probably, or in a Germanic manner book, yeah. Achieving the same thing, yeah, yeah, different uh area, different cultural, but using the same concept. Yeah, you are not doing something strange, you know, and that's how I see it. And again, I speak on Titanic. We are still like a traditional mystery tradition, but what makes us stand out is of course the center of union of uh regular free masonry, so yeah, no discussions about things that are the virus, so that's like unique. Another thing is like unique is our team of stone builders. But if you invest, you know, what the Rosicrucians did, what uh capitalists do, what the Martinist Order does, you know, and all those fractions, because Europe had so many things, and not only Europe, you know, all of the world. Yeah, yeah, such a large palette of esoteric initiative societies, you know, having often like the same aim, also borrowing the same symbols, even also like crossovers. Uh yeah, that's like, but we still stand and we are known for the symbols that we use. You have to understand everyone, if you say Freemasonry and people know something about uh our symbols, they probably immediately get the compass and script. Yeah, yeah, we use that, but it's not symbols from us. No, they were from thousands years ago with Confucius, you know, in order to measure the world. Oh, yeah, and you also see that in like religious depictions or emblemic books. You see, that this has like a deeper symbolic structure, yeah. And these are the things that we talk about, especially like in our organization, but because we are deeply aimed for esoteric and and and spiritual wisdom, and of course, this is also a spectrum, Marty. This is also a spectrum. Some people are just like amused by it, and other people like I am like obsessed by it, you know. And everyone freemason for like in Germany or in France or in Holland, so yeah, just reach out, yeah, and um I can give you the information that you need. So thank you everyone for watching for your attention. Be back next time.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Yes, hey, thanks, bye everyone.

SPEAKER_04 49:02

Bye.