Introduction to Freemasonry

In the first episode of our Freemasonry series, we explore one of the world's oldest and most misunderstood initiatory traditions. What is Freemasonry really, and why has it remained so mysterious for centuries?

Our guest explains the true purpose of Freemasonry, separating fact from fiction while discussing initiation, symbolism, ritual, personal transformation, and the meaning behind the so called "secrets" of the Craft. We also explore why Freemasonry is often mistaken for a religion, how it differs from dogmatic belief systems, and why its focus has always been on moral and spiritual growth.

Whether you're curious about joining, fascinated by mystery traditions, or simply looking to understand what Freemasonry actually is beyond the conspiracy theories, this conversation offers an honest and thought provoking introduction to a tradition dedicated to building better people and, ultimately, a better world.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hi everyone, welcome back to the mystery channel. My name's Morgan and Bjorn. We're talking Freemasonry today. Yeah. A deep dive into Freemasonry with an expert of Freemasonry, someone who's embraced that way. I feel like it's a fascinating subject because you know it is one of the oldest initiatory groups out there. It's also one of the most misunderstood, kind of the most cloaked in secrecy, but one that's still extremely relevant today. We're gonna dive into that with these next few interview sessions.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Indeed. And we we planned on doing seven. You know, seven is like a symbolical number in many mystery traditions, Freemasonry alike. We will zoom in all the important issues or stuff that yeah, goes or hangs around Freemasonry. So, but today the concept is that Morgan asks the questions, you know, and I answer every question that I can answer. Yeah. Surprise me, Morgan. Uh what do you want to find out about Freemasonry?

SPEAKER_01 1:15

And I feel like that would be fun too, just as much as being able to answer all these questions as in saying outright, hey, you gotta join to find out. You know, if you want the deeper tea.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Because there's in the end, in the end, it's it's not easy often to explain. I don't know what questions you will ask, but there will be some standard questions explaining something um that is specific to the ones who are like initiated or who are a member of it. Would be the same as I had to explain to you the game of basketball, whilst you only had seen like a slippet of a game, or you saw a an action of a uh player who like throws the ball. You see, but you don't know, you have never been in an arena where they play it, you never somehow sent it, so that's like difficult. But anyway, I will explain this by a tangible example. So that's yeah, I think it would come in handy to really comprehend. Anyway, but now I'm already answering questions that have not been asked. I'm used to interview, you see, I'm used to interview, but now it's it's a different rule, you know, and uh for me that's not so easy to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Oh, yeah, no, but I I think it's good because it kind of does answer, you know, the first question I had. And plus, that's the you know, thing of being like wanting to teach, being that mentor is you know, anticipating the questions and putting it out there for more understanding. Because, you know, with Freemasonry, there is a lot of meanings and like assumptions. What can you shed a light on for like all of this fact and fictions?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, but can I shed a light light on? You know, first of all, maybe it would come in handy if I explain what Freemasonry is, you know, what it's in general according to the constitutions, but then also what it is according to me, and not that it's so different than what the constitutions say, but of course my own subjective experience. What is Freemasonry? Yeah, and I've always liked this stupid answer. For me, it's like everything, but I know that's like a vague cryptic answer, but for me it's really like a way of life. But yeah, like I said, it's my goal here to to somehow try to explain it in a comprehendable way. According to the constitution, Freemasonry, and I might miss out on some words, but I can give you the real correct context on my own words. I also have to say, you know, I'm speaking on my own title here, so I don't speak on behalf of the organization I'm within, I don't speak on behalf of my mother lodge or other lodges I've been, I just speak on my own title. So I want that to be clear. So I'm not like an official speaker of the organization, I'm just a part of the organization. So that's for me. Important to clear that right away. So everything I say, if it's like brilliant or stupid, it's on my own title. Yeah, but it's pre-masonry, it's like an initiatic society according to constitutions that through symbolic teaching elevates man spiritually and morally, and by doing so, contributing to the improvement of humanity to an ideal of peace, love, and brotherhood. And that's exactly what it is. That is what it is for sure. And I have to underline it's like an initiatic society. And as you know, you know, I really like initiation and mystery bonds and mystery societies. So that is yeah, it might take passion anyway. But in my own words and on my own title, Freemasonry is an initiatic society, it's a mystery tradition, and like you said before, it's it's like a really old tradition, maybe not like the oldest, but the oldest surviving for sure, especially in the West, because there are some other initiatic societies still alive, but they are they don't have this structure and this international network and body. So, yeah, I think that I might make the claim that we are still the biggest and most stable initiatic society in the world. I know that's still vague, but to translate it to modern days, to explain it what it is with tangible and recognizable examples that everyone understands. I can actually give you a very good idea what we do, why we do it, and what it does for us Freemasons, because that's I think the most important part of it. So, why what does it bring for us? So actually, the who, what, why, and when. So that's also somehow why we do somehow the series. But yeah, I can only explain this with recognizable and comprehendable concept because in no way I am actually allowed to give anyone who is not a Freemason any insight information about our mystery, you know, and then I see the eyebrows raise, and you know, that's like special. You know, we all took oaths on that. Uh by uh we we swear that we would never give the mysteries away, and we take this very seriously, at least I do so. And we are, by the way, not even allowed to talk to our own brethren who have not yet received the degree that you have. So we have like three degrees, you come in like an entered apprentice, then after that, you are a yes, fellow okay. Symbolic Freemasonry. So, like in the blue lodges, we have like three degrees. So the first degree, so then you are like the entered apprentice, after that, you are the fellow craft, and after that you become a mastermade. But fellow craft knows more or has received more mysteries than the entered apprentice. So also a fellow craft cannot say the mysteries to a entered apprentice. So that's very important because otherwise you would take away on the aha moment. See it, that's somehow the goal of initiation, and I will explain this more in depth later. So these mysteries or not saying our rituals or what will happen or our passwords or holy words, that's out of practical reasons. That's not by being secretive. See, we have to sort these mysteries, and during and after that, in the lodge meeting, as we call them, we somehow contemplate on that. And that information that comes from there, you know, that's like what we are doing, that's like the alternative information that we receive from there. We hear a lot like mystery, mystery, mystery, you know, mystery channel. We like mystery, that's also like our theme in like mystery channel, everything it has to do direct or indirect with mystery. But to be honest, I have to admit, I avoid to use the word secret and secrecy, because that word nowadays that's somehow mostly understood in a pejorative way. And if the word secret somehow comes on a radar, you can test it for yourself, then you know people think okay, but this is like dangerous because someone else might have information where he can benefit from in my disadvantage. You see, but that's also like the underlying idea. Okay, knowledge is power, and that's actually that's true, you know. But that's not the case here because I can write away the spoiler alert. The most significant secret the Freemasons have is that there are no significant secrets, and that way, yeah, we receive are totally subjective, and even if we wanted to express them, we are not able to do so because you would never be able to fully understand what I experience.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Yeah, that's true. It's all things.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

So I don't know if if this resonates with you.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Absolutely. It's like, yeah, because when you learn something and take in something and have those things, it does will be give somebody a better understanding of what it means to them, where they're going to use it in their life and where they actually understand it. It will always be different. So that's why I like that. You know, you give them the pieces for them to put together in how it works in their life, even with the gods and goddesses. I mean, I'm just using that example. People will find different lessons in what the basic information is and how they're going to utilize it in their life and how it moves them. So I like that. Yeah, just something I understand, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah, thank you very much. But that's the thing. But we somehow took an oath on that that we would not give these secrets away. Yeah, but you know, back in the days, secrets and even other words relating to that, they had a totally other conceptual understanding, you know, back in the days. Totally different.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Okay, so then how would that like be different if you can talk about it?

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Like, because it did it just move with modern times, or no, like I said, you can also look at it this way, Morgan. So initiation. I don't know if you were familiar with with the work of the anthropologist. You know, it was like from a previous century, and he somehow can in cultural studies and all that, he's like uh a big player. He comes with the concept of the humoludent, so the playing man or playing human. And he also talks about even like the concept of the game or the framework of the game, it's like the magical circle. Okay, yeah, that's like a brilliant concept. What's the use of playing? So the use of playing is playing in and by itself. You see, when you're we're start playing as a kid, you are just like playing and you have fun, you know. You are like in a different zone and you go really totally up and yeah, whatever. You know, when when I was like a little kid, I was sitting like in in a carton box with a plate in my hand, and I was sitting like in a car, you see, and I like if I was driving a Formula One car, you see, just by playing, you know. If you would rationalize that, you know, no parent in his right mind would say, Yeah, but you know, act normal, you're just like sitting in a carton box with with an eating plate in your hands. So you're crazy, but if you look at it that way, yeah, you you you can have a point on that. But the ontology of it all, you know, if you can step in that mind of that child, you know, you're like the best Formula One driver.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I know, I love that. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

And for me personally, doing rituals is somehow the same because that is what people do intrinsic, you know, wherever they are born, all over the world, and especially in like an archaic society, yeah, they somehow have a cosmology and a cosmology. So, how came the earth to be, or how came our universe to be, how is our universe structured, and that's how we somehow live in this universe. We need a myth in explaining myth, and in order to somehow engage in that life, people automatically do rituals, yeah, they become the hero, yeah, or they become the god of this or that feast.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

I like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

If you if you start to rationalize that, yeah, of course, then there is something to say, okay, are you crazy or just like playing this is not real? But if you do the same, like when I was like a little child sitting in that box, and you somehow pass your critical thinking, and you just go along without rationality and just be there being ritualistic. Yeah, so Heusinger, he he called that so the playing man or playing human, the homo ludon. I call this the homo ritualis. Yeah, that that's like an invention, you see, but that's somehow what's happening there, you see, and that's something that's like really transforming stuff inside of you, yeah. You know, and the best thing you can comprehend in that regard. So, of course, I'm like a therapist, multidisciplinary, so my core business is still like hypnotherapy. I do like, you know, I call it like alternative, yeah, conversational sessions, but I also do a lot of systemic work. So, systemic work is like uh family constellations where you somehow make use of the room, the magical circle, like the homolutens, and you somehow put people in there that represent people in your life, even if so, most of the time is like in your family context or like in a workplace context or whatever. And there you sometimes put the the blueprint in the room. And if you change that blueprint, no, it changed stuff inside of you. No, that that's not magic, that it's not something strange. That's also like yeah, therapeutical. It might be a bit strange though, I have to admit it, but it really does work, you know. And and the fun thing is that the people who who invented that or who somehow got a grip on that, you know, in the early 1900s, previous century, they got a grip on the concept of that like theater players. If they had to go for a practice, and for instance, they left the house uh with angry uh with their spouse, for instance, and then they got a role where they had to be somehow like aggressive or they had to be assertive. They pretty much immediately saw when they stopped with rehearsing that they felt much better. You see, because they had somewhere like an angle built inside of them, and then in the other concept, they somehow gave attention to that angle, or they expressed themselves, or they they took on another role, maybe of like a hero or something which really like observer, and when it's like done, it really had something transformative inside, like that. And that is our metric, that's where we stand out. So, of course, as a therapist, I think for now I work for like 30 percent with particular clients. I don't know even if this like in in an English world uh word as explained it better for like 70 percent. I work like with entrepreneurs, with people from the sports world, and and longer trajectories. No, that's like personal development. Actually, you can say okay, but Freemason is also like personal development because we make from good men even better men, you know, and conceptually we go from the rough Ashler to the perfect cubic stuff, but it's like an old concept, you know. The alchemists they went from lead to gold, oh yeah, from hero from zero to hero to hero, yeah, the hero's journey. And I'm talking from a full of the woods to the best knight there is, yeah. See, there is this symbol structure of personal development, and our personal development, our method, the method of the Freemasons, is with rituals and symbols. But this nowadays, people might scratch their head and say, Okay, this is like strange, yeah, I have to admit. But back in the days, this was like totally normal, you know, and in that regard, there were many mystery traditions, and they somehow often had like the same goals, even like the same symbolic structure, because the underlying spiritual idea is that we go for unification, that we go back into one, that we you is one, not within ourselves, but also the idea that we somehow fell out of the sacred and that we now have to go back home. No, by means of initiation. You see, and in old mystery traditions, there is this idea, and you can also see this like in the Garden of Eden, that by misconduct we fell out of the sacred. You see, that so this is has to be the moral undertone, and then we fell from you can somehow comprehend that in a bigger structur, bigger symbolical structure that we fell from the space behind the fixed stars, and we fell all the way to the earth. We came somehow to the seven classical planet atmospheres, and falling further down, we lost our sacredness, of our holiness. Yeah, you see, and there is something interesting in the word holy because it's cognate with healthy, so we lost our health. You can also see that in that way. See, falling on the earth, and now we are like here, you know, here is like and we have to somehow see to go back by means of initiation and evolve through those stages. You know, that's also why we need those mysteries because you will find out that's the underlying idea and the underlying structure, you know. But in not in modern times, yeah, if I would sell such a trajectory at my clients, they would say, You are crazy. But it could really work. I have my own personal development, you know, in the lodge as we go to our temple and our working place. But in regards to secrets, our secrets and our mysteries, come on, people. Everyone with three brain cells, with some functional brain cells, can really find all our rituals. So, yeah, what can I say more? But I will not tell them because I did an oath on that.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Even like in even, I think the first one was like even in the in the 18th century, and and also after that, there were some, yeah, how we call it, I don't know if it's like a good translation, but in Dutch it's called like traitor writings. But I think you you better can grab the context. I used it exposing writings or something like that, where somehow Masons who stepped out of it somehow yeah, throw all the secrets on the street, you know. And I I really have to say, you know, they are like exact, they are like really exact, they were even so good that some nunjists use that trade writings, their books to somehow read through their uh ritual.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Yeah, oh funny.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

You see, but these are like no, yeah, but these are the so-called secrets where everyone is like uh curious for, but you can really find that. Yeah, the the thing is, Morgan, I cannot care if people know these secrets. But people who want to become Freemason, it's better that they will not know the secrets because it will take away from their aha moment and it would take away from their initiatic flash of light, so to say.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

I can absolutely see that because it's like anything else. You can read all the subjects you want, but until you experience it step by step and how you're putting it into your own way of practice and, like you said, your own spiritual development, knowing the answer at the end of the book changes how you're gonna go through the journey, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, yeah, totally. So, yeah, I'm glad that you somehow understand it in the way that that I explained it. And these are the so-called secrets people are so often scared about. But I can understand it, you know. If you say, okay, that's like a secret, you know, and then they hear like snippets of the history, and then you know, and then you get like the conspiracy theories, you know. And I have to admit, there are a lot of conspiracies. Really, there are a lot of conspiracies. The world is full of conspiracies. But if you really think that we Freemasons have some old world power and pulling the strings behind the seats, come on, that's bang out of order. And if we were able to pull the strings, you know, then we would live probably in a better world, I assume.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yeah, yeah. It's like the Zoom to Yeah, no, I get that.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the secrets we are really like, yeah, that's it's like functional, and you know, and in like a mystery tradition, you also have to understand that we have like exoteric and an esoteric part. So there's always like the inner circle who somehow finds out the double layers of what is in the exoteric teaching. You know, and the most simple example in that is for instance, like the Bible. See, so the Bible nowadays that was also like different in the past, but like nowadays everyone can have a Bible, he can read what's inside of that. Yeah, but there are also people who are like initiated within Christianity, it's like the pastor and the priest and all those, and they have also like a structure, you see. And there are like in the past, also when people left the the mass in the church, that like the pastor is like somehow reading a part often from Saint John, also the part that we work with, but he reads it like in silence, but he does read it, you see, as like and in a shed in the mysteries of Christianity, no ordinary man knows what he said. You see, but it's also like the idea and the atmosphere that you create, and for modern men, that is like crazy, but it's only like a very recent in regards to history, yeah, just such a smoke slipped in time that we somehow lost that or did not practice it. Well, and we as Freemasons never like other uh mystery traditions who still practice that, as we both know and we yeah, a lot of our viewers like uh tarot cards and touja. Yes, yes, they're just like Edward Waite, you know what he was also like a Freemason, his society, so the Golden Dawn was also in his yet. Oh, yes, yes, yeah, that's like this the same structure, you know, and back in the day, so theosophy and all of that, you know, it had like the structure.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Yeah, with the Golden Dawn, but that's completely separate for like a different order.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

You know, and we also have to zoom in on that, you know, when we do this uh series on on tarot, and because a lot of uh people back in the days who really were pioneers in NVD as a terror world, we're free nascent. Or stood really beside Freemason. See, it's a real interesting era, you know, 18th and 19th century, also in regard to enlightenment, you know, uh changes also within Christianities, also like the religious wars in Europe. Oh, yeah. See, that's also something that in that era, you know, Freemason was also born as like a center of union as well. Yeah. You see, as like uh opposite factions could meet each other, you know, and then you have like a really interesting cluster of people, you know, like somehow the elite thinkers from science, from religion, yeah, uh politics maybe, you know, even like royalty and all that, you know, then you have like a real interesting cluster of people, and the really great thing about it is that we are like a center of unions, you have like really uh good rules for that. So we are not allowed to discuss politics. We can talk about politics, but we cannot discuss it, and we cannot discuss religion. That's yeah, I think everyone can understand, you know, at the family table. Yeah, people are so smart to not talk about religion or not talk about politics, so things where people really identify with, and if you then have somewhere like a critical vote, then it's often like a personal attack, that's how they receive it, and all of a sudden the party is done. No, that's yeah, the same uncle goes for Zerk, yeah, yeah. Just crying on a bat.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

It's like stupid often, you see. But if you take those dividers away, you know, most people can really go through the same door. You know, that that's that's something you need.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

No, and I was gonna say that's interesting, you brought up religion because that's the big thing with like even Freemasonry or other things, whether people want to categorize it as, you know, either a way of life or a religion, like Catholic. Oh, it's a religion. But for some people, it's just I'm gonna show up at Christmas Mass once a year versus everybody else who lives and breathes it, versus like even Wicca or witchcraft. It's oh no, it's not a religion, it's a way of life. But people can't, they have a hard time with that differentiation needing to label it, needing to have that label. So, for as Freemasonry, what would you say on the religion versus way of life versus that initiatory?

SPEAKER_00 24:20

You know, it regards a religion. I always look back now at religion because I have to, you know, but religion in a traditional way, that's something else, you know, because it's also like religion as this binding factor, so it also goes back to really gare, so to bind again or to bind, you know, but this is because this will bring astray from nowadays' point of view, religion, but we understand all religion that there is like a dogma, there is a holy book, and that's that religion. So you have like the religions from the book, uh, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, you know, and whatever. So in that way, it's definitely another religion because we have no dogma, only one thing that is important, and you don't even have to say who it is, what it is, but as one thing you have to accept a like the French say, a principe creator, creative principle, and you can fill that in with whoever you want. See, it's like the Christian God, is it Allah or Yahweh, you know, or Wodan or whatever. Yeah, so I think that you somehow can guess what's what my um creative principle was. Yeah, I can also say that, so that's not not a problem. But a Freemason does not have to say that. You see, so you can sit there, here can sit a Jew, here can sit uh someone who somehow prays for Allah, and we can all sitting there, we are no competition for each other, and we can all be there with our own ID, doing the same ritual. That's something amazing, you know. I really find that amazing, yeah, and that's like the unique concept of Freemasonry. That's also why it's still like a center of union. You see, and back in the day, like uh in England, during the religious wars, you know, there we have like the worrying fractures uh the uh between the Catholic and the and the Protestant. See, so there it was like a center of union. And the interesting thing is if you see like the constitutions of Anderson, that's like the somehow, like, yeah, the constitutions, the book with all the rules and all the regulations and all that, and it's like a book from back in the days, and there you see that like two leaders of opposite factions from uh from back in the days. One it was like the worshipful master, and he hands over his task to the other. Whilst in the normal life, they are like standing opposite of each other. You see how how amazing it is, and later on, you know, when it came to the continent, yeah, now it it's like spread all the world, so now it's like a center of union of all religions, like that, yeah. You know what? I I think that's like like really something yeah, unique. And if you want to unify people, yeah, then that's like the way to go.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

So can you imagine that it's like when you enter such a room with people who are aimed towards that to support that ID, yeah, then it's like all other cattle are fish. And it's not that there are never discussions, and it's not that there don't happen things that should not happen. You know, they're just people like everyone else. You know, that's something something really great to be part of and something really great to work on. Because there you also see the beneficial part from that. Yeah, you know, and like in in in a brotherhood, you somehow have an art that you support each other, see mentally or or in whatever way. Yeah, see that's something really important. And in the end, you know, guys, we will do a a different uh episode on on history because yeah, that's as a history buff, that's something, and you you like that too, Margaret. Yeah, to really dive into that. But I don't want to dive too deep into that today, because today I want to explain somehow what is Freemasonry. Yeah, but no, no, there are also discussions, but an overall idea is that we somehow are the organic hairs of the real stonemasons guilds of medieval time, the cathedral build. You see, and we Freemasonries nowadays we are speculative Freemasons. So back in the days they were like operative Freemasons, so really builders, and now we are still only speculative, and of course, some brothers are like really like still builders in their work or do something in like construction or architecture, or I also have like a really great brother who is like uh a sculpture, you see, so they are like still like operative masons as well, but these are like a really small minority, you see. But I was also like during history, so uh in Europe. So the importance of the stone mason skills dwindled because you know there were like other fractions and privatized and all that, and the overall idea is that at a certain stage, people who were not active builders somehow got interest in the spiritual ideas of the real Freemason active builders and somehow joined their lodges and they took over. There are discussions on how that went, and if that went, I will not zoom deeper on this, but this idea. But what is clear is that we go further on their constitutions, on their rituals, on their rules, on their regulations. You know, that that's like if we are still like wearing an apron, having those gloves, so we take on that identity, you know. But that's also our team. You can also see that as a team we work in, and that team, those builders, we built mythical on the Temple of Solomon. Yeah, so we are actively the builders of the Temple of Solomon, and that's also our myth. And during the rituals, we stepped in that myth as a sort of you can see it from out of my therapeutic perspective, in some maybe like a systemic constellation. That's how I see it. Yeah, you see, but the big advantage of doing a ritual, you know, it's interesting, also in an etymological way. So a ritual goes back to bringing order. You see, if you cannot grasp something or something is fake, and you somehow try to measure how it works, and you somehow take the outskirts and yeah, you somehow measure it. Yeah, yeah. If someone has really severe anxiety, people cope with many ways, but often people get neurotic and they try to stem their way out of anxiety and they have to touch like corners or they have to double check everything. Somehow that's also like a ritual.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

You see, but I come here from another way, so that's what we do organically. If we have like we tend to somehow seek patterns, we tend to somehow, even with anxiety, to control, to get a grip on. It's not something strange, that's something that we do. I know you can understand it from our therapeutical thing, you know, but that is like reactive. That's anxiety. I want to control, I want to seek patterns. I like that, but you can also see it as proactive, where you proactive order your world or your understanding. You see, that's also something that happens ontological or psychological, at least from my point of view. And that's of course coloured by my lens of uh being a therapist.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

I like it, it makes sense, and you can see how it comes from the stonemason, seeing the pattern in the you know, the block of stone before you start sculpting it, seeing the patterns on anxiety ritual. I like that because it kind of like you're creating something.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Also, but for instance, you know, the history of tarot, and we will also zoom in on that. And I'm really looking forward to it, you know, and I'm working on a publication. So these triumphs they come from the idea of wagon plays or somehow full theater where there's some happy play, like a myth, a local myth, even, or a bigger myth from the Bible or whatever, you know, it's like a morality play, and also like within creation, it's also a morality play because we train our virtue. Certain things happen, you know, within these rituals or in that midst, and you get exposed, you get tested by your virtue, and by becoming the hero that has to undergo in the mix this battle for virtue, being good or bad, you live that you step in there. You see, it's like a totally irrational experience, so to say, and later on, you know, what that transforms that is like the method, and afterwards you start rationalized or whatever, or you talk with another brother, or you somehow start to write a journal for yourself, and that's our method, that's like the information, that's like the method. Yeah, I like that people throw your ideas off of it's probably still vague, but I hope that I can shed a bit more light on what we actually do by giving comprehendable examples.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, because it's gonna be individualistic for everybody coming into it and what they're getting from it. So, like for you, since it's your way of life, what inspired you to become one? Like, what inspired you to join that circle?

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, and the thing is, it is about morality. I gave you another example. For instance, if we take the Arturian legends, something we we really like, we all often talk about behind the scenes. So the Arthurian legend is also a quest for morality because the hero has to go through all the stages, and in the beginning, he does not act moral, so he bumps his head everywhere. So what he wants to achieve does not belong, and then he learns, he learns from the people inside. You see, that's like an anesthetic idea from the people inside, and then he somehow evolves more morally, and then he somehow wins. He went from, you know, we have like several stories, but it's like always the same symbolic structure. He goes back in the woods, he starts like uncivilized or like a fool. You know, his mother made this like a stupid costume, and then he he meets some knights in the woods, you know, so he comes from uncivilized, wild man, beggar to a knight.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

You see, it's it's like a process of initiation and a process of personal development. And with that Arthurian story, I could really make an initiatic association by myself.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I can see that. There's a lot to work with there, even stepping into the king role.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah, you see, and to give an example what we do without throwing our secrets on the road, we can also then step into this Arthurian legend. So someone has to be the Fisher King, some have to play the procession where they came with the lance with the blood and Perseval, and you know, it's like just sitting there, he finds it strange, but he does not ask a question. Once he should have asked, because that's where he gets not so lucky. We could somehow do that ritualistic and then ask, and that could be a password. Why did you not ask? And then it's like the thing that he has to talk about. Okay, but someone said I should not ask too many questions, but then he could reason, okay. But when I should be a hero myself, when should I go for the truth, or where should I somehow help someone? You see, but in the long run, that was his lesson. He should have asked, yeah. See, yeah, he sees the king and he sees that the the wasteland, you know, so and the king is wounded, like in the groin, it's all like symbolically, it's protesta, his creative potential is like wounded, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there we segue into the Celtic myths of like but that there's no place here, but the human thing, yeah. If you have if you have like a leading myth that you can make an energetic thing about that, and that's what we do, we work around those things.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, these are the so-called secrets, you know, but we need these secrets, but I rather call them mysteries, yes, and not and not to step away from secrets, but it's like mysteries because I answer already a question. I don't know if you wanted to ask them, but people often say or claim, okay, but Freemason, uh, Freemasons are like a secret society. We are not like a secret society. Everyone knows who we are. We are like we have like a status, you know, we pay taxes, we have to bring in our accountable things, you know. We are just like an organization like everyone else. Uh, there is like a member list, there's nothing secret about it. And then you know, there is this standard answer, and I don't like it. No, we are not a we are not a secret society, but a society with secrets, you know. But I would hope that it would launch the that that's better that we are a society built on mysteries. But the mystery for me is like the ontology or the psychologically aha moment.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Here I'm there, my my therapist brain. If you can provide a aha moment to someone, that is like really like a light flash. Even like if someone is like a school teacher, or you can relate to that. If you can make sure that people fill in the blanks their cells, that's like a aha moment that lasts forever. And that's also something that is really somehow like the carrot before the horse, because it wants to give you more, it's like a dopamine shop.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yeah, I can see that. And especially your own aha moment is what's gonna lead you as you go further into it and what you build upon because you're gonna see it that different and then build the practice with it. But it's not like yeah, secret society, but it's like cloaked kind of in secret. Like, if you would ask anyone, like, oh, what's a Freemason? They would say some one of the conspiracy theories or whatever, but not have any real tangible knowledge, but like the basics on how to join. You know what I mean? Most people think like you have to be chosen, you can't ask to join, you know, going back on trying not to get into too many conspiracy theories, but I feel like that's where the cloak cloak of secrecy is, the cloak of things, because it's not like you know, it's like that, you know, the building without a door. You just have to be there at the right time for the moon to shine to the keyhole, and you're like, I'm in, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Exactly, exactly. And regardless of that conspiracy theories, you know, that's such a big chunk, we really have to do that separately. Oh, yeah, you know, that's that for me is is really interesting, you know. But that often comes especially from conspiracy thinkers. You see, but I'm not I don't have anything against conspiracy thinkers, but I also think that there are certain conspiracies, you know, and a lot of Freemasons agree on that. You see, but but we are not like a conspiracy, you see. But we have to really zoom in on the on that subject because that's really like interesting, you know, because and how that came to be. That's like really interesting, you know, and and the illuminati uh and all of that, and you know, that's where things go blurred, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

But that's uh oh yeah, but but that was like one of the things I was just using as an example, like on how even how to join, how to become a member, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Nowadays it's like easy. You can just fill in your application. At least now I'm speaking for Belgium. You can go to the website of the regular Grand Lodge of Belgium Freemasonry, and there you can fill in an application. Yeah, and you have to be at least 21 years of age. You have to be willing to somehow work on yourself, and you have to be willing, of course, to do that with this concept of uh ritual, uh symbols, you know, and what we do. If you have nothing with symbols and nothing with rituals, yeah, then that would be not the right place to be. Then you'd rather book a personal development with me in my practice. Yeah, because I won't work with initiation and all that. It's not for everyone, it's not for everyone. And it's not to that it's like exclusive, but it's yeah, you have to like those things, you have to maybe have like interest or at least be open for them. Yeah, that that love can drop. Yeah, but there are at least if you in regular Freemasonry, there is one thing, you know, it's totally not dogmatic. No one will tell where you have to believe in, who your God should be, what your creative principle should be. But there is one thing you have to accept a creative principle, you have to somehow accept something bigger than you, you know. That's also a good thing because it deconstructs your ego. Yeah, in the end, if you somehow want to be a Freemason, maybe a good question to ask yourself out of the blue where do you find that you stand in nature? Do you stand above it or do you take your place in the structure? You know, that's something you know, I think is like an important question.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

You don't even have to have need to have that clear, you just have to accept that that's enough, and no one will ask you for that to explain. It's not that you get like a a lump on your head, you know, and now it's like a big interrogation. No, it's not the inquisition, that's not the inquisition, yeah. But you have to accept it. I don't say to someone else that you should accept it. If you say, Okay, I'm a hardcore atheist, okay, so be it. I'm raised in a hardcore atheist environment, you know, with with the best people, you know. That came from my my grandfather, he's also like my hero, but he he was like a hardcore atheist, and I don't have anything against atheism. I was one for a real long time, but I'm really glad I did find uh spirituality, you know. But I if someone is like an atheist, I don't care, you know, if it's between you and and whatever that you have you aim towards spirituality. But of course, if you want to be a regular Freemason, that's one thing. So that's maybe like a small dog. But it's like a very stretchable, it'd see the most free dogma. But if you would not accept that, yeah, I don't see why you should really join. Well, yeah, then you do some strange things, isn't it? Just say, okay, but I don't believe in anything, but then I got gonna step into a ritual and somehow step in like a myth for once and forever. And yeah, you know, I don't know. That's that's maybe strange. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yeah, no, I get it. You have to align with what's being offered or what yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

And it's only in that way that you somehow get, I think, the best out of it. Oh, but that's my own subjective thing, you know. Don't don't take that for granted. That's what I find, you know, and and we can all have different opinions at Freemason. We have different opinions, and that's also, you know, by we say by going from the the the rough Eschler to the perfect cubic stone, that's also a way to somehow relate with people who are different than you, but we are also like really in a corporation, we have to make that thing work anyway. We all have functions, you know. We are still like old guilds, we have like a secretary, yeah. Yeah, you know, we we we have like an almond. Is that the right word? Almond, isn't it? Yeah, they collect things that you think, like the treasury, and we also have like an almond, so it goes to talk with so we also have like an almond. And if someone is like sick or someone has like died, you know, he pays a visit and all that, you know, it's like a really a working structure. Yeah, yeah. I am a real big fan of medieval guilds anyway, and their function insists, and all those girl guilds were in a scientific by nature, not only the stonemason girl. Oh, yeah, every every girl, yeah, you know, and and and the great thing is those secrets that they have were also practical, so they were also a protecting unit of a certain profession. People would pay money and they were like protected if they don't have uh work that they would be paid out of the collective thing, you know. But you had also applied to certain rules, you see, but you all were also like protecting, and yeah, you know, the thing what the guilds did in medieval times when you died, they really made sure that you get buried. You know, nowadays it's like logical, but back in the days that was not so logical to give you a decent goodbye and where they took care of the widows, yeah, or without parents from from brother from brethren, or and and there they also did like community work. See, and all those guilds like in medieval cities, you know, they were also protective for the people because they have all the delegation and they had to protect the walls of the city as well. You see, but they were like the inner circles of it all. I do have to go back to our Theraval history, and that's what I have also like. These guilds they had like special privileges because they were allowed to play those wagon plays or theaters or whatever, moral plays.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

I like that. Well, yeah. I like that that they do that, that they were able to because that goes with ritual initiation, I feel at least. Give giving it an intention. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Well, you know, and it's like a really, really great working protecting structure, you know, and out of that that guilt life, a lot of things that nowadays are somewhat privatized. You know, I don't know the right words like in English, for instance, like with the protection of the workers. No, these ideas all stem from there.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Yes, make insurance. Okay, that's I like that. So it's kind of like ahead of their time, you know, and the rest of the world finally caught up.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

You know, and they were also very smart with educating people. Oh, yeah. We we just took over that structure. You know, that's like still like a worker structure, but now we play if if we are like the builders, but we also have like these functions, do it in like a yeah, spiritual way. We built the temple in ourselves, you know, and then you also with with somehow the hermetic principle as above so below.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Yeah, so we built all the temple of humanity, yeah, like that, and it definitely makes sense too.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Yeah, and if we work on ourselves and we progress from the rough Ashlow to the perfect cubic stone, we can fit in everywhere, and we can even be the cornerstones of the temple of humanity, you know. But the temple of humanity is like worldwide as an idea, as an ideal, it's gonna grow together, like and that's all we do, so yeah, please let us do because if you want to have a livable world with morals and you know, and I would want that we somehow pull the strings. Yeah, well there are other other powers that be, you know. The perfect proof, and and you know, I run before here, but we have to do something, especially on conspiracies, you know. But the best proof of that Freemasonry don't have that aim to whatever controlling whatever, you can see it best if there are like political tensions or big changes in country, the Freemason largest really suffer from that.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Oh no, really.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

So, how often often they are also like divided, you know, if there are like big political changes, for instance, you know. So nowadays, if we look back, you know, and by the forming of the nation states, that was also like in those days, you know, nowadays everyone knows like Germany, France, Belgium, you know, but this is like a recent phenomenon, and especially Belgium, we were somehow part of each big geopolitical power around us. No, yeah, yeah. We were part of Austria, then we were part of France, you know, uh Holland, you know, but even like in Belgium, when Belgium came to be, there was like a big schisma because they all those Freemasons they were part of the Grand Orient of Holland. And now they had like their own organization in a new farm country, and there, yeah, the lodges were divided. So some were some loyal to the Dutch card, and some were loyal to the new royal Belgian card. Yeah, see, that is not like one monolithic ideal political aim, no, not at all. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's a good thing because now you sit with people you and otherwise in no way or statistically would never meet or would never sit with every week, and now you have to make things work, so you have to make sure that you go to one door and live by the rules that we pledge our own to. And that's not always that easy. Of course, there do happen things which should not happen, yeah. But it's like the ultimate guideline to do so, you know, and it really cuts off a lot of your edges. I became way more of a diplomat, I became way more calm when there was discussion, for instance. Yeah, well, you know, 10 years ago, I would if I would not agree, I would slam the door and I would never come back. For instance, you know, up to like a like a toddler. But these are these are things you you learn there because you want to be part of that, you just feel and but then sometimes you also have to sit and grind your teeth, you know. Even I don't like it, it does also form you in a good way.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yeah, I can see that.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

And if you were in one echo chamber, I would not find it as interesting as it is now.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Yeah, all the different opinions.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

But that is like the method, and that's like the big advantages. But you have to see that, and you have to be open somehow, yeah, to step inside of that with an open mind, but also stand your ground, but also yeah, express your academic. Yeah, you know, and if you can do this in an environment where people support each other, where people have somehow the same goal or the same idea, and not the same thought, but I hope that I can express that this really transforms yourself in many, many ways. And I would never ever even believe that beforehand. Because you know, my core business has always been, of course, symbolism. You know, from a child, a small child, you know, I was really fond of symbols. I I know all the flags of the countries, I knew all the insignias of like the fireman of the army, you know. That was something I really wanted to know the story behind an emblem or a symbol. Yes. I came there and I thought I thought this is like really like heaven for me. But I received so so much more than just that without even realizing like your aha moments, yeah, yeah. See, but it comes like in many ways.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Oh no, absolutely. And so basically transforming you in ways you don't even realize, especially like helping people development, mm-hmm. Yeah, and I like to but not but not just that, like you said, like helping people, you know, find their paths, not just in the regular way you're talking about or ritual or symbolism, but finding a career path, finding like what fits them in this world so that they can be more a part of it as well. Because a lot of religions or a lot of groups, a lot of institutions don't do that. It's just like you're coming, spending time here, and then we'll forget about you after instead of furthering you along your path. That's nice.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

You know, I think if if you want to be actively a decent person, if that's your aim, if that's your mission, you know, that's something I think you can succeed in. But that's also the most important thing, I find be a decent person, be an example, be a community builder. You know, and that that's what we think. What we do, Morgan, somehow, you know, we that's how I see it. We come into an ideal world, you know, with with all brothers, you know, an ideal, it's not always as ideal as it should be, but the best ideal possible for us humans. I always say I go and look at the construction plan there, and I try to remember, I try to measure it. It's important to be especially a Freemason outside of the lodge in your community, in who you are. And I'm really like a Freemason in my practice with that aim, and I'm so happy that I can help people. Yeah, really, I'm I'm part of a success, and I'm part of yes, seeing that people get better, even though they are somewhat devastated. No, that that that's also my mission. That was a mission already. The center of union that Freemasonry is, is also like the center of union of my identity, of the understanding of myself. Yeah, so in that regard, so it's in no way a religion. Oh, it's understood as a religion, but it has these religious tendencies. Yes, yes. Like I said, Freemason is Freemasonry is everything.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Encompasses all that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

For me, it's like a high qualitative Swiss pocket knife, and that's like many fashion. Yeah, yes, everything, yeah, but it's not like a religion, like a dogma, a book, but it's like yet, it's not a religion. Point. Yeah, but yeah, if you understand the classical religion as something that binds people, as something that or reconnects people, yeah, then it has really like religious tendencies, but it's not like a religion.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Yeah, no, yeah. Well, yeah, and even that term has changed, you know, where communities were religious in a way of life, then as it moved through, it became more less of that community feel, more of that we just want things from you, or you have to live this way instead of bettering it. It's interesting the evolution of religion anyway. So that's like because obviously you chose, you know, to be a Freemason and cultivate it, but like obviously if somebody isn't doing that or they're just trying to be that fair-weathered Freemason, you'd probably either help them or send them on their way. Because I've obviously things aren't for everybody, you know what I mean? And you only get things back what you put in. So if you're not putting anything in, you know, do you guys deal with that a lot? I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Yeah, you know, if it's like you have to be active. You see, it's it's like with with a lot of wrong done, and we have like a smoking and uh toxed, you know, it's uh that's this edge of royalty. That's one thing, but you also have to understand that we have to be there beforehand, that we have to somehow build the temple, and that we have to prepare the tables where we eat on, and that you know, and we you know, we have like a really good lodge because we uh our meals and and nowadays get cooked, and we have like a good organization in that regard. My older brethren, they still have to back in their days, they have to really cook their own meals, you know. But during the rituals, they have to jump and look at the potatoes for cooking, you see you know, so it's not all in that way, you know. We have to also make that work, and that is also that's also something interesting. So there are a lot of people with often though, like in professions where they somehow are like the big boss, but here they come in like uh an entered apprentice, and they have to somehow stand behind the bar and serve everyone. Yeah, yeah, you see, it's like it's like in the army, you see, you have to deserve your spot.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Yeah, that's I was just thinking that too, like I was thinking of that too, like internship. Well, because then you get to see like you're standing on the outskirts, you know, paying your dues, but you can actually then see how things work, see the structure, you know, without being a part of it yet.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Exactly. So I hope I set I shed a light today on what Freemasonry is. Yes, then yeah, on next episodes, it's like interesting to dive deeper in the subjects that we already touched. So everyone watching this interview, you know, Freemason, non-Freemason, reach out. Do you have questions? Do you want to become a Freemason? Yeah, just reach out, you know, and we will answer your questions in next interviews, you know, during our lives. What can I say? No, you can ask. Yes, and what I can answer, I will answer. But I will not definitely not say anything about our rituals. But like I said, you know, everyone with a few functional brain cells and a laptop can really find out, you know. But I'm not gonna give. I hope that you understand that. But if you want to search for really important secrets where you can benefit from, you know, in a financial way or whatever way, you rather research other eras. Yeah, you will be disappointed. Yeah, but anyway, you know, go ahead. Yeah, you're forewarned. But if you want to find real richess of the heart, then we should talk.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

Yeah, definitely. I know I'll be in the comments section of here as well. Plus, our groups that's what the groups are for discussion and questions. Bye. Bye.