Dune Part 9 - The Ecology of Arrakis and the Fremen

We start off with Paul and Jessica, dodging desert dangers, and encounter the Fremen, and we learn more about the sometimes unforgiving nature of Fremen society.

Kynes feverishly reveals his insights on the ecology of Arrakis.

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Transcript

Into The Desert: Stakes Set

Michael Kentris 0:04

Hello and welcome back to Brothers Reading Books, your sci-fi fantasy literature podcast. We are your hosts. I am here with my brother, Will Kentris, and I am Michael Kentris. Will, how are you doing this week? I'm doing pretty good. The weather's been great, and I had plenty of time to catch up on some reading at the last minute on this as I kind of willy-nilly went around doing stuff around the house. But yeah, it's been it's been a good week. How about yourself? You know, also pretty good. I too, I don't like to read too far in advance of us recording this, so I want it to stay fresh in my memory. So I was actually reading up until about an hour before we started recording today. It is it's a delicate balance of yeah, having reading ahead of time versus, you know, you know, if you read at the beginning of the week, because we usually record these on either Friday or Saturday, by the time we get to it, it's like, what happened? Desert stuff. Desert stuff happened. We are in the desert on the desert planet Arrakis, living that Erakeen life. So so yes, so we are covering chapters 29 to 32 today. And as always, uh, because every episode is somebody's first, this is not a spoiler-free podcast. This is a spoiler spoiler-full podcast, as per usual. If in fact we ever have a spoiler-free episode, if we do any more modern books, we will let you know. But uh just assume spoilers ahead in in all of our recordings unless otherwise specified.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yes.

Michael Kentris 1:38

So, Will, do you want to give us the customary elevator pitch for what we're covering in these chapters today? Absolutely. Yeah, we have a lot of perspectives from Paul and Lady Jessica. So initially, we know we left them on that cliff edge after they had been buried in sand, and now they are crossing the sand, and then afterwards we get a point of view from Kines as he does some mild hallucinations in the desert. Also, also in the desert. We pivot back to Paul and Lady Jessica as they try to prove their water weight is the way I described it to myself. Can they carry their own weight? Is that what you're saying? Exactly. Basically. And then uh we jump back, or I know we're not jumping from it, we stay with them as they have uh some further encounters with the natives. Yeah, it does feel like kind of going from the first book of Dune to the second stage, we're we're getting kind of a narrowing down of our perspectives, and we're really focusing down on Paul and Jessica over the last several chapters.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Right. I assume as we go forward, we'll have a few more from the From any people that we're introduced to, which we do have a few here who become pivotal characters, I assume, based off what I've seen in the movies, but they certainly have names, so yes, they are named characters, which is important.

Michael Kentris 3:08

So yes. Starting off, we've got another passage from a book by the Princess Arulin. You know, when we get near the end of the book, we'll have to like just write down all of the works of literature that are attributed to her from the book and kind of go through those. I think that would be an interesting uh little exercise to do at the end. Right? No, she is definitely a prolific author with how often well, to be fair, I'm sure with her firsthand experience to the subject matter, you know, she's she is going to be, yeah, kind of the first voice on a lot of the writings regarding the, you know, pick pick whatever prophetic name you want, the Al-Kizarach, the Lisan al- or was it Lisan Al-Gaiib? Yes.

Walk Without Rhythm: Crossing The Sands

SPEAKER_01 3:55

So there's there's a few, but yes.

Michael Kentris 3:59

So I thought this was interesting, right? So we get this uh little perspective from the Royal Kresh, um, which kind of gives echoes a little bit of kind of like the like the old Chinese uh rear imperial palace, you know, there's a bunch of concubines and uh offspring of the emperor and all that kind of stuff. At least that's what it evokes to me. But she says that he has only one real friend, Count Hasimir Fenring, the genetic eunuch and one of the deadliest fighters in the Imperium. Who, if I remember correctly, we had a note from Lady J from the Countess Fenring, who is a Benny Jesseret, to Lady Jessica in that uh water.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Yeah, like the water, yeah.

Michael Kentris 4:44

Yes, conservatory, thank you, Will. But uh, I don't think we've actually met these characters in the flesh, as it were. Not to my knowledge, no. Yes, so I think this will, you know, is this foreshadowing? It must be, if this is a character who is counted one of his closest friends. But I thought this was interesting here. I I highlighted a couple little bits here. My mother and sisters and I became adept at avoiding subtle instruments of death. And they talk about this uh woman who is given as a gift to the emperor. Uh she had a dancer's muscles, and her training obviously had included neurointic. Very seductive sounding. So but he says that uh she's too beautiful, we'll save her as a gift. And then she mentions subtlety and self-control were, after all, the most deadly threats to us all. So I thought that was interesting how they're kind of reflecting that this self-control remains a primary character trait of the emperor.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Absolutely. I did also enjoy the description that they included with the count, a dap or an ugly little man. Just like is he's gaudy, but also just uh ugly.

Michael Kentris 5:51

You know, there's nothing stopping you from being well dressed.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

That's true. That's true.

Michael Kentris 5:57

So we switch now back to, as you said, Lady Jessica and Paul. And so we've got Lady Jessica's kind of internal monologue here, and I like this this axiom. I always enjoy the Benny Gesseret axioms. The mind can go either direction under stress, toward positive or toward negative, on or off. Think of it as a spectrum whose extremes are in consciousness at the negative end and hyperconsciousness at the positive end. The way the mind will lean under stress is strongly influenced by training. So right, they're kind of under this, obviously, very highly stressed thing. They are crossing this wide pan of salt, the open the open sand.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Mm-hmm.

Michael Kentris 6:36

And they have to obviously get across it without getting either seen from the air or eaten by a giant worm.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Right. Dangers above and below.

Michael Kentris 6:47

Yes. And I thought that uh, you know, we're starting to get some really beautiful language. And it's time to it's still it's interesting to me how he's still able to work in some e ecologic descriptions here, even in the the midst of this. This bit about the salt pan. A salt pan glared white there with a blending of dirty tan at its edges, a field of white out here where white was death. But the pan said another thing, water. At some time water had flowed across that glaring white. So again, right, we keep getting these hints and things about there's water somewhere on Arrakis, but where is it? Um And as we go, I think we're going to learn more about that today. But again, right, we're just kind of the the contradictions that are the Aracheen ecology are very interesting. It's it's such a well-fleshed out ecology, you know, as as a non-ecologist, at least that's the way it seems to be. Right. Yeah, no, definitely as someone who's not trained in that field. It seems to be at the very least decently researched. Like it's not kind of just flippantly all put together.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

There's definitely the kind of whole life cycle thought out to some degree with just the water cycle, the plants, the animals, the people who live there. I appreciate that level of world building.

Michael Kentris 8:10

And I think it's important to think back to like this was written back in the 60s. For us, we're able to jump on our phones or on a computer and just do a quick search for for any of this stuff. But this would have required, for someone who wasn't trained in the sciences, like a fair amount of research and diligence. And as we said before, there's just so much woven in here from different cultures, you know, like Christian, Islamic, Arabic, and then the ecologic science aspect of it, right? We hear about things like, you know, aldehydes and esters and like all these chemical compounds and so forth that are and even like sometimes it's like weather, like meteorologic phenomena. And uh the amount of research that would have had to go go into creating something that didn't, as you said, seem just like it was kind of thrown together, would have been quite momentous. So it's it's just very impressive, you know, thinking of how things were written, you know, back in the day, uh, when you had, you know, you go to the library, you get books. That's that's how you do your research.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Right. Yeah. No, and especially because I I remember when I had to do like a bug project back in high school.

Michael Kentris 9:19

You know, those before we had readily access to the internet. So it's like, all right, I'm gonna check out like ten different books on dichotomous keys on identifying bugs.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

And even that was, you know, in of itself, a arduous task. So I can't even imagine, yeah, something to this extent.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Yes.

Michael Kentris 9:38

So as they're going, they smell cinnamon. He said, Paul says he can smell it even through his filter, right? If you remember, they're in their still suits, they're wearing a lot of times they're wearing masks over their faces, they're wearing nasal plugs to catch every drop of water that is in their breath and recapture it for reuse. So even through that, he can still smell the the melange of cinnamon. So I like this phrase here. If we must walk without rhythm. So this is kind of like a recurrent thing that is mentioned in these chapters, and I'm going to assume it becomes a continuous thing later on. But here, this is their first time really describing it. And we get this, I think you had mentioned this uh when we were talking before the recording last week. But if you wanted to describe how this walking without rhythm goes well. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I feel like, you know, naturally, you know, they show it in the movies, and it seems to make sense there. But here it's just kind of like literally trying to echo kind of the natural kind of falls of sand without, you know, indicating to worms the vibrations that there's something here.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

So the way they describe it here is they must sound like the natural shifting of sand, like the wind, a broken pattern, step, drag, drag, step, step, weight, drag, step.

Michael Kentris 10:55

It's just it's very tedious. And it did describes in great detail, like this is you know a very unnatural process for them. Uh they can feel it in their muscles almost immediately, but they have several kilometers that they have to cross doing this. Yes. So they're making their movement across these spilling dunes across pea sand, continuing this irregular walking, and then the sound. Uh right, they they placed a thumper. So we talked earlier about the things that were like in the Frem kit, which are all these exotic kind of tools with uh what do they call them? You know, the echo Paul's thing, terrible purposes. But they they indicate these these unknown dangers of the desert. And so the thumper is essentially it thumps, right? It creates vibrations through the ground. So although I thought it was funny that instead of thump, they used lump as the onomatopoeia for the thumper. It is unusual, yes. Lump lump lump. Thumper makes a lump sound. Right. You know, there's no accounting for taste. But it was interesting. They talk about how you can kind of like uh light a fuse on it to an extent, and that'll give you like a certain amount of time to get away from it because it's going to attract the worm, so you don't want to be standing right on top of it when it goes off. So you need to get some time to get away from it. And so they had Especially Yeah. Especially when walking without rhythm takes so long, you can't just run. Right, right. Because running would be rhythmic. So they start hearing it. It started so low that their own dragging passage masked it, but it grew louder and louder out of the west. And then suddenly a grating sound of fury exploded from the rock shadows they had left. It was a flailing avalanche of noise. And uh I like this here. Uh we get Paul shouting, keep moving. And I don't know about

Wormsign And A Narrow Escape

Michael Kentris 12:50

you, but I immediately thought of the movie The The Chronicles of Rivic. Yes. Yeah. So when they're escaping the fire planet or whatever. Yeah, yeah, some hell jail planet. Uh but it's like uh the sun is so powerful and dangerous that if you get caught in its blast, you basically get like fried. And so what's the what's the actor's name in that? Some triple X. Vin Diesel. There we go. Vin Diesel, yes. So Vin Diesel is is Riddick, and you just seem to be like, keep moving. Keep moving. And he does that like a couple of times. So when I saw this in the setting of a desert planet, I'm like, did they take that from here? I don't know. It's a common enough phrase, it probably isn't, but the parallels were too much for me. It just overwhelmed me with a little giggle. I did I did have the same thought, so you're not alone in that. Okay, good. So, yes, any of our listeners who are also partakers of at best B-grade science fiction flicks over the last 30 years uh will hopefully appreciate that reference. Absolutely. So they start hauling off, and so Paul lurches sideways, and now we get a boom-boom, and we get the drum sand. So we're getting all of these things that they talked about in terms of like the natural dangers of the sand. Well, I guess not all of them, but several of them in a row. And so now they're on this like giant echoey thing of sand that is very loud. Right. And then they hear this hissing. And I love this description here. Like the wind, like a riptide where there was no water. And so they run.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Right. Because yeah, like you said, the the danger of that sand is very rhythmic.

Michael Kentris 14:29

It is going to attract the attention of the worm, which was before preoccupied with the thumper that lumped. The lumping thumper.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

The lumping thumper.

Michael Kentris 14:39

And so at that point, you know, it's basically they gotta run and they make a dash for it. And kind of kind of like in the Chronicles of Riddick, it very much is like, well, we just gotta keep moving, we gotta keep rotting, because at this point, to stay where we are is going to only let the danger catch up to us. Right. But but I really like this, right? Because it's uh it's in a way to emphasize a riptide where there was no water, right? Obviously, there is no water here. And the description of a riptide, kind of like in that scene at the dinner where Paul was describing that one anecdote about the drowning fisherman to one of the young women from Arrakis. And, you know, it's like, what is a boat? What is drowning? Right. Like all these things. So, like, what is a riptide? So it's kind of a way, I think like a subtle wink at the reader, or maybe wink is maybe too strong of a word, but that this is a reference that would mean nothing to the residents of the planet, but to those who come from a water-heavy world, it would be a reasonable comparison. So they're running, and Jessica's all she could think of was the fatigue, the sound, and the terror. So they they eventually uh reach some rocks, and they're able to hide in kind of a crevice in the rocks, and the worm reveals itself. I don't know if you had this part highlighted as well, but I thought this was a great this is kind of our up close description of the worm here.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Right, no, absolutely.

Michael Kentris 16:07

The dunes began perhaps fifty meters away at the foot of a rock beach, a silver gray curve broached from the desert, sending rivers of sand and dust cascading all around, lifted higher, resolved into a giant questing mouth. It was a round black hole with edges glistening in the moonlight. So it's a terrifying image, because literally, yeah, it's just like this giant beast with like obviously it knows it's there, just can't see them because it doesn't blind his eyes. I presume. Yes. So yeah, the mouth snake tore the narrow crab where Paul and Jessica huddled, cinnamon yelled in their nostrils, moonlight flash from crystal teeth, very evocative, just overall the senses being overwhelmed by like the immediate danger that's before them. Yeah, I I always enjoy when people use descriptors that take one sense into another domain, right? So like a smell like creating a sound, it's so powerful. It always to me it gives such a it's a powerful way of describing things. So I I really do appreciate that kind of imagery. And we've gotten this a couple times where in the book he'll use the phrase race memory. So in this case, subduing a race memory fear that threatened to fill her mind, as in like, you know, being pursued by some large megafauna predator. At least that's how it seemed to me. And so I just uh again, right, it's kind of this this very primitive thing where all you can do is run, right? There's nothing else you can do but run. There's you can't fight it, you can't trick it, you just have to get away from it. So yeah, I think that was uh again just something that I've noticed a few times where they've talked about like a race memory of XYZ, you know, an insert thing, but it's usually some very strong emotion, a very primitive emotion, kind of attributing to humanity.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

I mean you see that all the time on other animals as well, like when like a small rodent sees like a shadow overhead, you know, it's indicative like, oh, there's a predator above, gotta run and hide. It's kind of, yeah, the exact same vibe I was getting there, but for people.

Michael Kentris 18:11

For people. So here we have again a little further description here. Crystal teeth. And again, like some not so subtle hints perhaps at things to come. Crystal teeth with the curved shape of Chris knives glinting around the rim, the bellow's breath of cinnamon, subtle aldehydes and acids. What has the worm to do with the spice melange? He asked himself, and he remembered Leah Kynes betraying a veiled reference to some association between worm and spice. So again, right,

Kynes Alone: Ecologist’s Last Vision

Michael Kentris 18:40

there's like this hidden piece of the ecology that we don't know. And uh we get more of this in our scene with Kynes coming up. I thought it was very interesting as far as like the way the I mean you could call it an info dump if you want, but I thought it was still a very good little bit of world building.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

I went ahead and coined a new term for kind of these connections that Paul is making and whatnot.

Michael Kentris 19:06

Mentuit. Mentuit, he's mentuiting. He's mentat intuiting, he's mentuiting. Nice, I like that. I think at one point uh he refers to it as the waveform.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Okay.

Michael Kentris 19:19

Like this like super advanced mentat plus. Yeah, yeah, his like his uh prescient psychic future prophecy type things.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Gotcha, gotcha.

Michael Kentris 19:28

So anyway, as the worm is questing around their hiding hole, trying to devour them, a another thumper goes off and it draws the worm away. And we get some back and forth, you know, Paul's like, it's Freeman, must be. Why would they help us? Um And I was like, maybe they were just calling a worm, and she asks why. And he had this vision in his mind, as you said, he's mentuiting here. Something to do with the telescoping barbed sticks in their packs, the maker hooks. Which again, if we remember the conversation earlier on with Jessica and the shadow mapes, she is like questing around in their conversation for the keywords for the missionaria protectiva, and she refers to the maker. So now here we have maker hooks, although these are lowercase M, not a capital M. Yeah. So But it suggests that these are something to do with with them.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Right? Again, I know I we figure it out relatively soon.

Michael Kentris 20:27

There's I feel like there's enough context provided in the upcoming chapters that make it pretty obvious, especially if you haven't seen the films, or if you have seen the films, but even without that context, it's pretty obvious. So but what are you talking about? What are they talking about? Right? Maker hooks. What?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

But uh so yeah, the worm leaves and they have a moment to kind of think about their current situation. So as they were coming into this uh new cliff space, the rocks, whatnot, uh, they realized that they had passed several poles that, you know, had been passed there, presumably by Fremen.

Michael Kentris 21:05

So kind of, you know, they're on this current path of seeking out the Fremen to get refuge as they are, and they're still flight from the Harkinans. He, you know, it's presumed that they are dead, but best not to give them a chance to rectify that mistake. So as they're going, they finally reach a basin, an oasis, if you will. Alright, so we get this really physical description of of their weariness. In spite of weariness, the irritation of recaths and nose plugs, and the confinement of the still st still suit, in spite of fear and the aching desire for rest, this basin's beauty filled her senses, forcing her to stop and admire it. Spreading away in front of her stretched desert growth, bushes, cacti, tiny clumps of leaves, all trembling in the moonlight. And Paul says, This must be a Freeman place. Uh and I like this a little bit here. I don't know why, they just struck me. She uncapped the tube to her still suit's catch pockets, sipped at it, warm, faintly acrid wetness slipped down her throat. She marked how it refreshed her. The tube's cap grated against flakes of sand as she replaced it. Right? Sand everywhere. But um but yeah, just the physicality, and if we remember from the earlier, like the initial traverse across the sand, that uh Lady Jessica reflects without rest there can be no mercy. So this is their first kind of moment of rest. Uh-huh. Brief though it may prove to be. And so it's a both a spiritual and a physical rest, it seems. So yeah, like you said, this is uh a nice little basin, there's the plants. And then uh they see some motion in in the uh bushes and weeds, and it's some mice. It's interesting. Up, hop, jump, pop, hop. It just very it reminds me a lot of like kind of the uh old school Batman automatopoeic. I was kind of thinking when I read that of like um, you know, the hobbit, how he would describe a lot of movements and stuff like that, or even like have little songs and stuff uh in the hobbit. It kind of was evocative of that a little bit to me. Anyway, so we have these mice, and the mice are just having a great time, aren't they, Will?

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Oh yeah, having a great time. Not a care in the world, which is how you end up dead.

Michael Kentris 23:26

That's right. So yes, this uh this bird, uh basically a ghostly gray bird, gets the mouse, and we see it lifting away with a small dark shadow in its talons. We needed that reminder, Jessica thought. Yes. Right. Hard times ahead. Always on the knife's edge. That's right. As they're talking, tomorrow we can try to find the Freeman, and then we get a voice, a heavy masculine voice, chopping across his words. Most intruders here regret finding the Freeman. Please do not run, intruders. If you run, you'll only waste your body's water. And then Jessica thinks they want us for the water of our flesh. I don't know. There's just something more visceral about wanting your physical body rather than like, you know, being robbed and killed versus that, right? It's it's a much deeper, like, you are the thing. Right. I don't know. We want to harvest you. Yeah. So I like this little bit at the end here. Still, he felt the edge of fear within him and knew its source. This was blind time. No future he had seen, and they were caught between Wild Freeman, whose only interest was the water carried in the flesh of two unshielded bodies. So, yeah. Uh very interesting. We get this again, right? We've talked about this several times now. The water is always the most important thing. And we've seen it's like with people who died or were wounded beyond care, you know, harvesting the water for the good of the tribe, for the good of the clan, etc. etc. And so now we have intruders. So what do we do with intruders? Well, why waste?

SPEAKER_01 25:00

So And that's where we leave them.

Michael Kentris 25:03

We are on to chapter 30, and we get a uh a nice perspective shift. And again, we get uh another little thing from Arrakis Awakening by the Princess Arulin. And this is she's talking about music, in this case, something called the old man's hymn. And I thought this was very interesting. Like it's it's one of these things we've talked about before where it's like, is this something from somewhere else, or is this unique and new written in this book? And this is one of those things where it's so evocative of a certain style that I thought it must be from some old wisdom literature, you know, from from like the Middle East Semitic tradition, something like that. But no, I did not find any any direct things. I don't know if you found anything, Will.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

No, nothing came up for me.

Michael Kentris 25:50

But if you'll indulge me, I'll just read this here. Please. So this is the as she says, Who has not heard and been deeply moved by the old man sim? Well, apparently we hadn't. Until now. So I drove my three feet let me start that again. I drove my feet through a desert whose mirage fluttered like a host. Voracious for glory, greedy for danger, I roamed the horizons of Al Kulab, watching time level mountains in its search and its hunger for me, and I saw the sparrows swiftly approach, bolder than the on rushing wolf. They spread in the tree of my youth. I heard the flock in my branches, and was caught on their beaks and claws. So it's very much evocative of like the Psalms or other kind of poetic stuff from kind of the Middle Eastern region. And I had to look up some of this. I believe I looked up Al Kulab, which, from my cursory search, found that it was a well that was involved in a conflict, a civil war between two brothers that was located near the bank of the Euphrates. So this is a real place on Earth. So kind of roaming near the Euphrates River, watching time level mountains in its search and its hunger for me. So it's very evocative of the passage of time. And there's a lot of poetry about that, uh, especially from kind of the first millennium BC up until, you know, forever. But uh basically I guess one of the Psalms, you know, like seventy years was the span of our life, eighty if by strength, and the

Pre‑Spice Mass And The Maker’s Secret

Michael Kentris 27:20

greater number of them is toil and travail, yeah, stuff like that. And it's it's all about how time is coming for us, we will be ground down, our bodies will fail us, et cetera, et cetera, right? But yeah, I these sparrows seem to be uh like time as well. Kind of as you get more and more birds in the tree, they they ravage you, right? You're caught on their beaks and claws. So anyway, I I thought it was very, very evocative. But uh and I I very much thought it was like real like wisdom literature from the kind of the ancient past, but uh it's all Frankie. So now we get our actual scene. And we get uh Leah Kines, and he is he is looking a right mess. He's not in good shape.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Yeah.

Michael Kentris 28:03

Uh the way he's initially disguised, or dressed only in torn remnants of a jubba cloak, his skin bare to the heat through the tatters, his hood has been ripped from the cloak, and yeah, like a turban that he's fashioned, but again, just he is not in the uh necessary equipment to thrive in the desert.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

And we learn in a little bit here that it's because the Harkinans have not uh been kind to him.

Michael Kentris 28:27

They've, I assume, been torturing him, interrogating him to some extent, and then left him in the death to so that they can deny some level of culpability in his death when they're inevitably asked about what happened to him, but also just so that they uh, you know, can put a little salt in the wound, be like, ha ha ha, your precious planet is going to be the thing that kills you.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

You know, a little sadism there.

Michael Kentris 28:53

That is the hearkening away. It's the hearkening way, fear and power, or what is it, money and power, or fear? Yeah, they're power, they're things of statecraft. Right, right. Yes, the tools. The tools. So so yeah, we as you said, uh he's in this semi-delirious state. You know, he's like talking to the empty horizon. I am Leot Kines, I'm his Imperial Planet Majesty's Planetologist, Planetary Ecologist for Arrakis, I am steward of this land. His voice was a hoarse caricature of the strength it had known. He realized that he was semi delirious. Hence the semi-part. If he knew he was delirious, so then he wouldn't be delirious entirely. That's right. He's aware somewhat of what he's saying. Right. So I like this. So he's he's walking around, right, and he's kind of falling, and sometimes he's getting up, but a lot of times he's kind of like rolling around in the sand trying to get up. He could still smell the rank, semi-sweet esters of a pre-spice pocket somewhere underneath this sand. So for those who aren't familiar, esthers are one of the main scent compounds that we pick up from like a lot of fruits and organic compounds, like like vanilla, banana, things like that, uh, a lot of other stuff. But yeah, they're they're very volatile in as much as not volatile explosive, volatile in as in they very readily become gaseous, and that's how we smell things. So anyway, just you know, I do have a little bit of a chemistry background.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

That's all right.

Michael Kentris 30:22

You know, esters, aldehydes, certain kind of organic acids, they're all chemically, structurally somewhat related to each other. So just a fun fact. But uh anyway, he I like this little part. If he could smell the pre-spice mass, that meant the gases deep under the sand were nearing explosive pressure. He had to get away from here. Well, I guess that meshes with the volatile part, right? Mm-hmm. So we get these hints and these intimations around the edges of the things that he refrained from telling uh Duke Leto at that dinner on that previous night. So he hears a voice, and this shocks him because he recognizes it, and he knows the owner is long dead. It was his father, planetologist here before him, killed in a caven at Plaster Basin, and his father is like lecturing him the entire time that he's dying here in the sand. So definitely being kind of a dick. Yeah, which you know, well knowing what we know about uh Kynes, maybe that's not too surprising. Mm-hmm. Right. No, like literally one of the first things he says to him is Gut yourself into quite a fix here, son. You should have known the consequences of trying to help the child with that duke. Right. And I like this. You get these little quotes from the more life there is within a system, the more niches there are for life, his father said. And Kynes continuously thinks, like, why is he telling me such basic stuff? I knew these things like when I was a child. And uh we he he kind of has this similar thought like multiple times throughout this exposition here. Uh and he talks about you know, planetology is not a cut is a cut in fit science. Uh that's why I created this entirely new form of ecological notation, which I don't really get too much about. Kinds, he says, began to feel cool, but that corner of logic in his mind told him the sun is overhead, you have no still suit, and you're hot. The sun is burning the moisture out of your body. And as he's like having these thoughts, his father kind of is droning on in the back of his mind, create a true Siraco, a moist wind, but we will never get away from the necessity for for wind traps. So he's talking about like all the things we need to do to grow life on the surface of the planet, you know, talking about different kinds of like grasses and grasslands and different kinds of water entrapment devices to get to that point. So as his father is having this ecology conversation or lecture, I should say, with him, he is like looking around and seeing, like, oh, there's there's carrion birds, right? As all birds on Arrakis are, circling around. Maybe the Freeman, because this is a spice desert, right? You can just smell the pre-spice mess. Maybe the Freeman will see the birds and come and investigate, if only to see if there is a source of moisture to harvest.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Right.

Michael Kentris 33:04

I also enjoy this thought from Kyne's like, oh, he's lecturing me. Why doesn't he shut up? Can't he see I'm dying? Yeah, why won't he help me? Right. But yeah, the yes, father keeps kind of like, hey, you need to get out of here because this bubble that's forming right now underneath you is basically going to swallow you up. So Right, a what do they call a rapid transposition of the surface and the depths. But we get, I mean, while it may just seem like exposition, it gives some much-needed clues to the reader, right? Because obviously Kines is not divulging this information to Paul or Jessica or anyone else who is going to be, like from any of these other perspectives. So this information is solely for the reader. So yes, it's a bit of an info dump, but I think it's still delivered in a pretty interesting way. Mm-hmm. Right, so I like this, these lines here. We get some very useful information. Is there a gap in it, that is, say, in the ecology? Then something occupies that gap. Science is made up of so many things that appear obvious after

First Contact: Stilgar’s Standoff

Michael Kentris 34:10

they are explained. And then later on, Arrakis is a one crop planet. One crop, it supports a ruling class that lives as ruling classes have lived in all times. Which I kind of thought was a little uh little bit of class commentary there. So they keep talking about the lines, you know, things, clues that led them to discovering that the association between the spice and the worms. Yeah. There's also the comment real quick from Kynes, like a worm, a maker is sure to come when this bubble bursts, but I have no hooks. How can I mount a big maker without hooks? So again, kind of yeah, draws the literal line there of yeah, okay, worms equal makers, but there seems to be some sort of classification on big makers versus little makers, is what apparently is being used to. They're talking about the small makers with the pre-spice mass, and then that uh like it must only be like a hundred meters below the surface, clear running water that I cannot reach. If only I could have it, then I would survive. And his father talks more about like uh we must do something different. We must make man part of the ecology and integrate them into the cycle. Something not done, you know, man has always been a taker, a destroyer, and we must make him a part of the cycle. And to that effect, they talk about understanding the flow of water. Most of them will have only a semi-mystical understanding of how we intend to do this. And then religion and law among our masses must be one and the same. An act of disobedience must be a sin and require religious penalties, which that kind of has a certain implication, right? We're kind of in a desert culture here, right? Kind of like, you know, Middle Eastern, Bedouin-ish, where, you know, things like like theft, right? You would historically get your hand chopped off. So some pretty hefty consequences for for crimes. So an interesting way to frame it, certainly. Right. And I mean that makes sense to an extent just because, you know, you need the unit acting as one.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

So anytime you have somebody kind of acting in their own self-interest or doing something that otherwise kind of puts the tribe in danger, it's like, well, we have to react accordingly to kind of make sure that everybody keeps in line. So in an ordinate punishment for any sort of crime is required, yeah.

Michael Kentris 36:32

Right. Keep things cohesive. Right. The tribe above the individual. Which again, for for us as Americans and Westerners in general, there's a lot of emphasis on the individual over the collective. So it is a different way of thinking compared to probably what most of our modern readers would be thinking of. Absolutely. So I like this line. They talk about uh well, not this part, only three percent of the surface to tip the entire structure over into our self-sustaining system. So that's just a little interesting thing. Three percent's not that much, theoretically, but a whole planet's a lot. And he says, No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a hero, to which he immediately thinks like if the Duke's son is alive, they'll find him and protect him as I've commanded. They may discard the woman, but they'll save the boy. So, as this is going on, he hears the sand rumbling. Somewhere beneath him, the pre-spice mass had accumulated enough water and organic matter from the Little Makers had reached the critical stage of wild growth. A gigantic bubble of carbon dioxide was forming deep in the sand, heaving upward in an enormous blow, with a dust whirlpool at its center. It would exchange what had been formed deep in the sand for whatever lay on the surface. Yes. And he felt the bubble lift him, felt it break, and the dust whirlpool engulf him, dragging him down to cool darkness. For a moment the sensation of coolness and the moisture were blessed relief. Then, as his planet killed him and occurred to Kynes that his father and all the other scientists were wrong, the most persistent principles in the universe were accident and error.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

So exit stage.

Michael Kentris 38:09

I know, right? That's a bit of a bummer. I like Kynes, but you know, such is the way of things. It did not feel yeah, right? Life can be cheap. So, but yeah, at least a very well-written scene, and he had a bit of hope still for his planet, right? He was always it seems like a multi-generational thing, right? A family tradition of making Arrakis become a paradise world, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Right, yeah, that does seem to be the ultimate goals, making Arrakis actually inhabitable, which I do believe is talked about a little more either this next chapter or in chapter 32. But but yeah, that does seem to be the overarching goal for the Fremen's getting water more abundantly put out there.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Which was fair. Yes. So why don't you take us forward, Will?

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Absolutely. So goodbye, kinds.

Michael Kentris 39:06

We liked ya, we'll miss ya, and now we jump back to Paul and Lady Jessica, and again, we left them previously in the hands of some for meni who have ambushed them to some extent. They did sneak up upon them and were able to elude Lady Jessica's kind of preternatural capabilities of, you know, detection and what have you. And we have, again, another excerpt from uh a writing by Princess Arulin. Oh, this okay, as is referencing that waveform term that you had said earlier. And I did like uh the one line here. Consider how much is actual prediction of the waveform and how much is the prophet shaping the future to fit the prophecy. Again, a very much pinning up on that idea of free will versus fate, which with somebody who has some ability to see into the future or at least predict with his mental plus abilities of what are the likely paths that the future is going to alight us on. It is interesting, again, kind of just getting this perspective with Paul, who is constantly like having these moments of blindness where he is like, okay, I'm in the now, I have to focus on the now, versus knowing kind of some of the paths that are likely to come from the decisions that they make immediately after they've been made. Yes. So yeah, I mean that's very true. Apologize, my notes were a little out of order here. So we kind of, as you said, we're we're back up kind of like exactly where we paused, right? Where Paul and Jessica were just getting ambushed by the Freemen, and we have a little bit of back and forth, uh a little bit of a Mexican standoff, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Yes.

Michael Kentris 40:51

So they're kind of basically saying that uh, you know, we're just gonna take you for your water. Yes. And they're talking. Yes, they're talking to each other in this language here. And again, right, this is one of those things. Is it real? Jacobsa. Is it created? Yes, Jacobsa, which I did look up. It is fictional, but it is based somewhat on like hunting languages from kind of like North Africa, Middle East kind of things. So it's kind of tribal languages. So there is a basis, per se, but not a a true human language on our world. But uh, Lady Jessica was able to understand it due to her Ben Gesserit training. Right. And yeah, the thing that she kind of takes away from their exchange is that there seems to be some doubt as to whether or not these are the two strangers that they are seeking. So it does seem like they are currently acting on the previously alive Lietkai's orders to find and help Paul Jessica. Right. And so, yes, we have, although he hasn't introduced himself just yet, we have Stilgar making himself. And I like this. What have we here? Jinn or human? So obviously Jinn referencing the kind of like deserts desert spirits, yes, um which kind of can be mischievous or even downright evil. So basically, Jessica, I like this, puts all the royal arrogance at her command into her manner and voice, and says, uh, who comes on us like criminals out of the night? She demanded. And so we get a little back and forth here between mostly Lady Jessica and Stilgar. I like he keeps referring to

The Weirding Way Proves Its Worth

Michael Kentris 42:30

Paul as a cub, which is very interesting. And later on we get him referred to as a child man or man child. And uh but basically he says, if you're fugitive from the Harkonins, it may be your welcome among us. What is it, boy? And get a little back and forth between Paul here. Why should you welcome fugitives? And he says, A child who thinks and speaks like a man. Well now to answer your question, my young Wally, I am one who does not pay the five, the water tribute to the Harkinins. That is why I might welcome a fugitive. And I looked up uh Wally is roughly like a friend or a guardian. Uh-huh. So it is it is a an Arabic term, I believe.

unknown 43:11

Right.

Michael Kentris 43:11

And I do like kind of again, like a child who thinks and speaks like a man. That was definitely something that seemed to really impress Kynes during the dinner was kind of the way that Paul carried himself. And again, Paul just being Paul is impressing everybody that he meets and encounters consistently, you know, thinks and carries himself in a way that, you know, definitely to the Iraqians at the very least, you know, they find to be very appropriate. So Paul's like, I remember you, Stilgar. I was there when you came away to visit my father at his uh council with my father's man, Duncan, Idaho, in exchange of friends. And sort of like, and Idaho abandoned us to return to his duke, he said with some disgust in his voice. So But we get uh this a voice. From in the rocks. We waste wasting time here, right? Because it's nighttime. They only have so much time to escape the heat of the day. But this is the one who Liet told us to seek. And we get, again, Stilgar is kind of defending him. The Duke was a man, and this lad used a thumper. That was a brave crossing he made in the path of Shai Halud. And so, yeah, it definitely seems like, again, there seems to be some internal discussion about what to do with them. You know, there seems to be one specific individual who I believe eventually we learn his name is Jameis, or however you pronounce it, J-I-M-I-S. But he seems to be the one who's kind of like, we don't got time for this, let's just take their water. But uh Stilgar is very hesitant because again, he's like, they could be the Lisan el Gaib, which, you know, is embedded into their culture, their whole religious right. This whole messianic prophecy, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

And so Jessica, being Lady Jessica, just like, okay, they're looking for some sort of signal, some sort of hint that we are kind of these figures that they hope that we actually are. And so, yeah, she uh kind of I'm sure I'm not jumping ahead here too far. Now that happens later. Okay. Her faint. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Well, we're close to it.

Michael Kentris 45:21

Yeah. So uh so yeah, um you know, Jessica thought uh the voice or they're kind of we get this voice and still go back and forth. You heard the voice of Cialago. That's why do you press me? Cielago, which uh apparently in Spanish, Murcia Lago is a bat. So this is kind of a type of bat, and I guess they say it right here, a small flying mammal. So they had heard a distrans message, which is kind of one of those uh sci-fi portmanteaus, perhaps. Right. To seek Paul and herself. But as they were saying, kind of what Kynes was saying in his delirious state also, but they may not spare the mother. So they're kind of talking about Lady Jessica's water as opposed to Paul's at this point in time. So if he does not if she does not know the ways of the desert, then her water is forfeit. And so initially, you know, he kind of tries to determine her worth in general. So he does ask her if she is a reverend mother, which again is a term that is used by the Bene Gesserit, which you know seems to be the head of their organization. And so rather than lying, she answers truthfully, no, she is not. He's like, Are you training in the ways of the desert? She's like, No, but many consider my training valuable. So there's like, we make our own judgments about what's valuable. Yeah, they're kind of at this standoff here where Stilgar's trying to like, you know, be logical, very pragmatic, like, we don't have time to test you. You know, we have to think of the tribe as a whole. I can take the boy man as he refers to him here, your son, and I will basically, you know, take him in, treat him as part of my tribe.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

But for you, you know, we can't necessarily do the same. You know, we will have to take your water.

Michael Kentris 47:10

And I like this, yeah. The phrasing, again, is very, very religious. He shall have my countenance, sanctuary in my tribe. So again, right, a lot of old literature from kind of like the like either whether well, like in the Semitic tradition, whether that's like Old Testament or other writings from the area there, it's the like, you know, the favor of my countenance or the you know, such and such. And they talk about the the rule, the istisla, which I apologize, my pronunciation is probably terrible. But uh this is something referring to Islamic jurisprudence to derive new rulings for the public good, uh, or as they say here, in the general interest. So so Paul isn't necessarily picking up exactly what they're putting down. As they said, he is in a blind space for his vision. So as they say, a someone who is not trained could bring an entire tribe to ruin. And we cannot carry useless dot dot dot. And then we get the slump. So why don't you take us from here, Will? So yeah, this is the feint that I was alluding to before. So Jessica started pretending to slump a deceptive feint to the ground. It was the obvious thing for a weak outworld to do, and the obvious slows in opponents' reactions. So she uses his opportunity to more or less get the better of Stilgar. And while this is happening, Paul also acts, he kind of immediately knows that you know his mother is taking this opportunity to more or less get some sort of advantage leverage that they can utilize to ensure that they will not take her water. So while she goes ahead and handles Stilgar, Paul, what's he do? He dives for the shadows, he grabs somebody's weapon, he jabs them in the sternum, and takes his weapon and clambers up into the cliffs. And so, some sort of projectile weapon, it's not really sure exactly what it is, but again, he kind of like has this derisive thought about how another clue that shields were not used here, because you know, with shields, projectiles really aren't gonna do a whole

Chani Revealed And Tribal Tensions

Michael Kentris 49:20

lot. But he does have the thought that they'll concentrate on my mother and that Stilgar fellow, she can handle him.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

I must get to a safe vantage point where I can threaten them and give her time to escape. So again, kind of using this opportunity to keep both of them alive, because despite Paul's kind of lack of emotion that he was right.

Michael Kentris 49:40

So so as he's kind of crim climbing off through the rocks, uh we get Stilgar's voice roaring up, get back you worm-headed lice, she'll break my neck if you come near. So, you know, Lady Jessica can handle herself. Yes. And I I like this. He says, Why didn't you say you were a weirding woman and a fighter? So I like this phrase, weirding woman, which again, uh that's kind of more of like a um like an old English kind of thing, you know, like the W-Y-R-D. So kind of like she's got these mysterious ways about her uh mystical knowledge, if you will. Right. So basically, you know, Jessica's like still trying to like throw at him and be like, tell your men to fall back. Uh ultimately he's like, Leave, woman, we mean no harm to you now, great gods. If you can do this to the strongest of us, you're worth ten times your weight of water. So again, they have they have passed this initial test at the very least to more or less be like, okay, they are not going to be useless. They will not be dead weight that will bring harm to the tribe, so to speak. So basically, uh as she's making demands, he's like, and if I refuse, how can you? And it's like this happens like three or four times in a row. He's just like, you know, like uh like she's like probably got him, it sounds like in like some sort of chokehold or some sort of grappling maneuver where he can't get loose. And uh he's like, Great gods, if you can do this to the strongest of us, you're worth ten times your weight of water. Um So, and again, right, if we get this next paragraph, he's like, you know, talking some crap, and it's like, I all I know is you came here with that stupid duke who I So Right, it's it's very amusing, but uh but also kind of like this high-tension situation here. Just the way they wrote his exclamations was very kind of over the top. Right, and definitely I feel like stuff is starting to kind of de-escalate at this point, despite the fact that he is still under immediate threat of death. Right. But to the Fremen, that is a threat on every day. Right. And uh I enjoy he has some really good insults here. It's like do as she says, you worm faced crawling sand-brained piece of lizard turf. Do it or I'll help her dismember you. Right. So so yes, yeah, I like this here. Uh we carry no weapons for the Chris knife is sacred, but you woman, you have the weirding ability of battle. We'd only heard of it and many doubted, but one cannot doubt what he sees with his own eyes. You mastered an armed Fremen, this is a weapon no search could expose. And so basically she's like, you know, they they come to an agreement, right? I'll teach you the weirding way, like if you look after me and my son, essentially. And it's like we d we have no contracts, our word is our bond, that kind of thing, right? It's like, you know, you you are from the world of like paper contracts and signatures, not me. Right. Which I feel like is a very common thing with kind of these sort of cultures depicted where it's like, you know, you know, if if you break the contract, you know, probably the result will be some sort of blood feud or you know. Right. It's it's an honor culture, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

The word, yeah, like you said, word is bond.

Michael Kentris 52:39

Your word is your bond, yes. And they can kind of say this in some of the phrasing, right? Uh teach us this weird in way and you have sanctuary with us as long as you wish. Your water shall mingle with our water. And then it kind of gets a little bit of an update on the news, right? I just said that you two died in a mother storm. The hunter does not seek dead game, referring to the Harkonens. And then she's wondering again, like, well, if you know who we are, I'm sure there's a reward out there. Why won't you turn us in, you know, at the first chance you get? And again, we get another reiteration of like, you know, we would there there is no amount of money or resources the Harkonens could offer that would ever make us want to cooperate with them, more or less. So, again, they're more or less safe from the Harkonins because the Fremen also hate the Harkonans. So enemy is my friend. So I like this here. Uh just like I yeah, right. My word is my bond. Or literally says here, word bond. What could the Harkonens give us our freedom? Ha! No, you are the Takwa, that which buys us more than all the spice, and the Harkinin coffers. So Taqwa, again, this is a real term, and it's uh in Islam, kind of a idea of being cognizant of God, divine truth, piety. So it's it's some sort of yeah, it has religious implications in as much as like being faithful to this or to this idea, essentially. So yeah, they reach a way of agreeing with one another, you know, the relative trust between one another, you know. They they have kind of to the counter of what Thufer was struggling with, you know, they they've been able to kind of understand what the other is trying to convey, despite their words not necessarily matching up one to one. Ultimately, you know, Jessica lets him go, and she is like, all right, this is it. You know, either I get killed here and Paul can get away, but you know, this is this is the chance to more or less, you know, show if we can trust them. And it seems like they can, because Stilgar knows immediately where Paul is up in the cliffside. And like you said, he kind of has another insult there for an individual who was above Paul had found Paul. Uh, and she's like, I said leave him be, China, you spawn of a lizard. Right. Yes, and she's like, Spawn of a lizard. Call call me spawn of a lizard. Um anyway, so they kind of you know are having their little thing up there, and then uh she's like, How may we be certain of your word, right? You from the civilization, from the paper contract land. Yes. And she's like, We of the Bene Gesserit don't break our vows any more than you do. And then we get multiple hissings. It's like a Bene Gesserit witch. So anyway, uh But it it is one of these things. So they uh if you are the Bene Gesserit of the legend, whose son will lead us to paradise, and then you know, Stilgar shrugs. All right. Yes. And she kind of has some cynical thoughts here. It's like, uh yes, the religion, it's all it's all pretty rote from our books, essentially. Um she says, the seerers who brought you the legend, she gave it under the binding of karama and ijaz, the miracle and the inibitability of the prophecy. This I know. Do you wish a sign? And so Karama, from what I could tell, it's like a different spelling of like karma, essentially, and ijaz is uh referring to the Quran, which has a miraculous quality in both content and form. So kind of and that that's what they talk about here also in some of the definitions was the inimitability of the prophecy. So the fact that it is both miraculous and true in both its content and its delivering, so which you could say that that this is kind of like a sign. So if

Night March To The Cave Of Ridges

Michael Kentris 56:30

we think about, I think we might have talked about this once before, when we talk about a sign in terms of like ancient prophecy, so you would do kind of two things. You would make a prediction for the short term, and when that short term prediction proved true, the other thing that you said would then be given greater weight as a prophet. Right? So we have here, says like uh she says, Perhaps when we get to siege Tabor, which, you know, that is they had not told them where they're going, but she remembers from the charts and the notations back in the thing that there was a place called this, right? So she's tricking him, essentially. But that being said, and I do wonder if Tabor I should have looked this up. But um there is in in the Bible there is a Mount Tabor, which is where the transfiguration of uh Jesus occurred, right? So the basically where the the Holy Spirit appeared to uh several of the apostles, and that was where uh Moses and the prophet Elijah appeared next to him, like in like a divine spectacle, essentially, to to uh it was Peter, James, and John. And uh so I think that might there may be some elements there, not to get too far ahead of ourselves, but there is a cavern that they talk about when we get there that is quite large, and uh I believe stuff happens there, which you might say has some parallels to a transfiguration type event. That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

That's fair.

Michael Kentris 58:01

So uh we'll see if my again, I haven't read this in quite some years, so we'll see if my memory holds up, but I think that may be something to think about. Okay. Anywho's. So anyway, she uh that that is a little bit of this kind of motif, I would say. It's something that that I think a lot of cultures would be familiar with that kind of have that religious tradition, that Abrahamic religious tradition. So anyway, uh we find out that the person who Paul kind of whooped on here is in fact Jameis. And he's like, even your cub knows the weirding way. Basically, she finds yeah. We'll get some descriptions of some characters here. So we get Chani. You say Chawny, Shawnee. Chawny. Alright. It's a CA. So we get a description of her, a small figure in Freeman robes, a shadowed face peering out from the hood, and the muzzle of one of the projectile weapons aimed at him from a fold of robe, and we find out she is in fact the daughter of Liet.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 58:59

Sorry. Sorry for your loss.

Michael Kentris 59:02

Well, you know, right? So we see an elfin face, black pits of eyes, the familiarity of that face, the features out of numberless visions in his earliest prescience shocked Paul to stillness. He remembered the angry bravado with which he had once described his face from a dream, telling the reverend mother, Guyus Helen Moyam, I will meet her, and this was the face. But in no meeting he had ever dreamed. So and she just basically says insults him, You were as noisy as Shai Hulud in a rage, and you took the most difficult way up here. So she is immediately dismissive in the way that only young women can be of young men. So uh they kind of scramble their ways down back there, and I like this little tete tet here between Jessica and Stilgar. I hope you and your people feel no anger or violence, it seemed necessary. You were about to make a mistake. To save one from a mistake is a gift of paradise, Stilgar said. So yes, um they get some more back and forth here, and we get these kerchiefs placed around the necks of Lady Jessica and Paul, the Baca, and if we get separated, you'll be recognized as belonging to Stilgar's siege, and we'll talk of weapons another time, right? Because Paul still has this pistol that he took off of Jameis, which he did not give back necessarily. Yes. And then Stilgar more or less is like, Johnny, you watch you watch the child man, keep him under your wing, keep him out of trouble. And then Paul like gets kind of you know snippy about it. My name is Paul. We're well you. Stilgar's just very dismissive, like, we'll give you a name, Manling, and the time of the Mina at the test of Accul again, more or less. You're not yet a man. Do not seek to be above your station. Right. So Mina, I found I did look up. It is a test or trial, but it may also refer to a time, it was an Inquisition launched by the seventh Abbasid Caliphate. And so there there was also a period of of this, like trials essentially. But it can be like a religious trial as well. Accl, AQL, I did not find any direct reference um to that. Doesn't mean there isn't one. If there is one, write in, let us know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Well, it seems like she kind of immediately says like the test of reason. I don't know if Accl here is supposed to mean reason specifically one to one. Perhaps, perhaps. That was that was what I took away from there.

Michael Kentris 1:01:23

And then she says he's been tested with the gom jabber. The gom jabber. Yes. So uh and then that can just causes like a lot of silence. And then still, as much we don't know, we must not tarry over long. And so they kind of get moving.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Yes.

Michael Kentris 1:01:41

And then, yeah, if we learn the name of the individual that, like you said, Paul had bested Jamas, and he's like, Surprised me he did, twas an accident. I can travel. I'm sure he doesn't have that type of accent, but that's how I read it. It's like some sort of backwards English accent. It's sort of, yeah, like very unpleasant, cocky accent with the way that dialogue's written. So I was like, it wasn't an accident. I'll hold you responsible for for his safety. Yes. These people have my countenance, right? We get this several times, both in this scene and a little bit later on. And Jessica stared at the man Jameis. His voice was the voice that had argued with Stilgar from the rocks. His was the voice with death in it, and Stilgar had seemed fit to reinforce his order with this Jameis. So kind of just emphasizing the fact that Jameis may not be the most reliable member of the tribe as far as taking orders. Yes. We get some other characters, uh Laris, Farouk, hide our tracks, uh extra care. We've got two who have not been trained. We must be at the cave of ridges before dawn. And so they kind of head out. There were forty freemen, and she and Paul made it forty-two, traveling as a military company, even the girl Chani. So as they're going here, they basically Chani's like kind of saying, watch where you go, don't leave fibers attached to bushes. Forty people crossing the basin with only the sounds natural to the place, ghostly falucas, their robes footing through the shadows. So a felucca, I did look this up. It is a wind-powered wooden sailboat, uh most famously used on the Nile, typically like kind of considered pleasure craft, but very silent, right? Just sailing along, right? So it's again this kind of juxtaposition of they are in a desert where there is no water with a nautical reference. So I just find it very interesting, the continued juxtaposition of the desert with all of these nautical terms, which, you know, kind of gives the it's drawing a parallel, I think, between like the perhaps the danger, right? If we think again historically, like the sea, the ocean, was very often considered a place of danger and chaos, unpredictability. Likewise, the wilderness in a lot of ancient literature was also considered very dangerous and unpredictable, like due to wild beasts, robbers, spirits, etc. So I think there are some parallels there from like a spiritual perspective. That's something that just kind of struck me a little bit there. But you do kind of see that in a lot of, again, kind of like Old Testament type of stuff. And they kind of she reflects a little bit on the word siege, a meeting place and time of danger. The profound implications of the word and the language were just beginning to register with her after the tension of their encounter. Um, a Jacobsa word, unchanged from the old hunting language out of countless centuries. So it's just kind of interesting that we get this kind of going on as far as that goes. So we get a little variation here. So moving on to our next chapter, we are continuing with our same perspectives, and we have a little The Wisdom of Muadib by Princess Arulin. The Freemen were supreme in that quality, the ancients

Siege Politics And Sacred Knives

Michael Kentris 1:04:45

called Spannungsbogen. My apologies to any German speakers in the audience. So German. The self-imposed delay between desire for a thing and the act of reaching out to grasp that thing. So delayed gratification, essentially. So so because we've heard people talk about, like, not for my my children or my children's children or my children's grandchildren, but uh the the kind of working on planetary scale for these changes to the planet. Yes. So they get there at dawnbreak.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

Yes.

Michael Kentris 1:05:18

And they're they're in quite a bit of a rush, and it seems like less than the fear of the sun itself, it is the Harkonnen patrols that they're making sure that they're avoiding. Which makes sense considering the little tidbit we got previously, where the Harkonans are more or less on a warpath to destroy any and all Fremen that they encounter. Right, right. That had been mentioned earlier. Best not to be seen or leave tracks or any sort of traces that the Harkonans can find and again bring a ruin to To the Tribe.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

Yes. So they leave some guards outside.

Michael Kentris 1:05:57

Paul has some tactical thoughts, maybe. Be better if we came in small groups rather than whole things we don't lose everybody. Uh he remembered his father's fear that the Atreides might become a gorilla house. Right. Which is a shame because there's not much of the Atreides house left to uh do such a thing at this point. Yeah, yeah, essentially. So they uh they're kind of uh going up through this narrow defile, or how do they describe it here? There's there's basically just a tiny gap. And uh he thought of the words of the Surat from Yui's tiny O.C. Bible. Paradise on my right, hell on my left, and the angel of death behind. So again, the Surat is again from kind of like this Islamic tradition, the correct path of religion, which is sometimes also referring to a razor-thin bridge that believers must cross on the day of judgment. So they have to cross over hell to reach paradise. So kind of interesting. Uh there's uh a tradition in some like Orthodox Christian sects of something similar called toll houses, where after you die you have to pass through these toll houses of um like different demonic temptations. Uh that is not dogma, by the way. That is what some people say. But uh anyway, uh but yeah, there's so there's this, again, right, in many religions there's this thought that after you die, you know, you there's more temptations or challenges ahead of your spirit before you reach you know paradise. More tests. More tests. Ugh.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

And study for that.

Michael Kentris 1:07:33

So so they're in here, uh and uh yeah, Paul sees his mother coming up and notes how she fails to blend in, even though her garb was identical. The way she moved, such a sense of power and grace. So yes. Yeah, I think that was interesting just because, you know, it's a very positive way to describe somebody, you know, power and grace. You know, you might consider that to be like, you know, the way a lion moves or some other like kind of apex predator. But you you would assume that there would be, you know, some sort of similarity between that and the way the Fremen move, but again, they're kind of trained to move without rhythm, move without any sort of, you know inconspicuousness that might leave them, you know, right to blend in. Right. Yes, with power and grace, you obviously are going to stick out from the environment to an extent. So I like this here. Uh two leaf she Chani gives them some food, two leaf wrapped morsels reeked of spice. And they kind of send out an order, get the door seal in place, see to moisture security. Yes. And uh yeah. Yeah, they need to seal off things so that and again they don't lose any moisture, but obviously, you know, we want folks to be able to relax a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

You know, it's been a hard night's work, but again, moisture above all else.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:59

Right.

Michael Kentris 1:09:00

So we've got this large basin here. So so Stilgar takes Jessica and shows her an opening high in a cliff wall looking out across another basin, about ten or twelve kilometers wide. So a very large basin, shielded by high rock walls, and there's sparse clumps of plant growth scattered around it. So it's kind of interesting. Uh she noted how the sun of Arrakis appeared to leap over the horizon. It's because we want to hold it back. Night is safer than day. So, again, right, it just makes sense. In a planet like this, the less direct sun exposure you have, like just from like a gardening agriculture perspective, the less moisture loss you'll have. So it makes, I think, a lot of sense that there would be like this kind of basin oasis type thing here. And then uh he kind of directs her to look over there. And you know, he's she sees movement, people on the basin floor scattering in the daylight into the shadows of the opposite cliff wall. So again, we got quite a number of people here, or from any, who are Stilgard's people. So it looks like that they were working, doing some level of, I would assume, spice collection. I don't actually know what it was that they were doing, but we do learn that uh there is kind of, you know, some work that they do under the table for the guild at some point here in a little bit. Yes. So they kind of have, again, they have a conversation about what is our relationship going to be. So Jessica asks, like, has she compromised his leadership? And uh basically says, like, well, you didn't officially call me out, right? You didn't challenge my leadership, so it's fine. Um, and he's like, There's not one of those sandalites that I can't handle. And now they hope to learn from you the weirding way. And some are curious to see if you intend to call me out.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

Right. No, yeah, like you said, it's definitely a whole back and forth because, you know, Jessica's proven that, you know, she does have superiors.

Michael Kentris 1:10:56

Stilgar predicates this whole thing with saying, you know, the leader is the one who's strongest, the one who brings water and security. So by already having kind of, you know, defeated him in combat, people are wondering, like, uh, are we supposed to be following her instead? But Stilgar kind of, you know, is trying to, again, be pragmatic to a fault, but like, you could do that. I suggest you don't, because people won't follow you because you do not know the desert. And so he's trying to kind of suggest an alternate path that the Lady Jessica might fulfill that would keep the current power in balance without, you know, making her in any danger or kind of putting her out to farm somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

Right, right, right.

Michael Kentris 1:11:44

So, you know, there they're talking about the the spice quota they have to get to the free traders for the cursed guild. May their faces be forever black. So basically saying, like, as was kind of hinted at earlier, like, why are there no weather satellites over Arrakis? And it's because they are bribing the guild with spice to do their own workings, right? So it's kind of everything that had been hinted at for the last half of the book, which we are roughly halfway through the book at this point in time. And we're finally finding out, yes, that is in fact true. The theory is correct, most likely. Yes. That uh that they are bribing them, and that's saying like we bribe the guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep our skies clear of satellites, such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis. And it's like, what is it you

Riding Makers, Bribing The Guild

Michael Kentris 1:12:30

do to the face of Arrakis that must not be seen? And here we get again that that's statement. We change it slowly but certainly to make it fit for human life. Our generation will not see it, nor our children, nor our children's children, nor the grandchildren of their children, but it will come. Open water, tall green plants, people walking freely without still suits. And she says, Bribes are dangerous, they have a way of growing larger and larger. And he says, They grow, but the slow way is the safe way. So as they are going, they see the middle distance a long worm traveling the surface with what looked like Freeman robes fluttering on its back. The mirage faded. And Silver says, It would be better to ride, but we cannot permit a maker into the space, and thus we must walk again tonight. It's like maker, their word for worm, she thought. So in case you hadn't picked up on it by now, yes, the makers are the worms. The makers are worms, worms are makers. Right, which maker making what? Well, spice, right? I think we've gotten enough clues at this point that we can say that, right? The little makers were in the pre-spice mass, and then there was spice. So it is a one crop planet, as it was previously called. Main crop worms. Main crop worms, second crop spice. Anyway, alright. So uh we must get back, else my people will suspect I dally with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:45

Yeah.

Michael Kentris 1:13:47

And they are already jealous that my hands tasted your loveliness when we struggled last night in Toono Basin. Right. I do uh yeah, this this exchange is very humorous. Like, she's that will be enough of that, she snaps. Like no offense. Women among us are not eat taken against their will, and with you, even that kinda convention isn't required. Right. And he's just like trying to more or less compliment her, but also be like, hey, you know, if you want, but Rice. Yes, she had heard what she had heard in Stilgar's voice, the unspoken offer of more than his countenance. It would be one way to end the conflict over tribal leadership, a female properly aligned with male. So that that could be an option for her from a political perspective, right? If she wanted to become part of the group there.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:35

Yes.

Michael Kentris 1:14:35

But then she gets all these, like, all these intrusive thoughts here. Uh who knew like what would that mean for Paul if he was his like stepfather? What if the unborn daughter she still has? What if a dead Duke's daughter? Uh so she kind of has all these like concerns, so she's basically can't necessarily do it, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:56

She has several thoughts, like you said, about kind of like what would be consequences for this for both of her children.

Michael Kentris 1:15:03

And so she ultimately kind of like has this thought, a daughter born here to a woman wed to such a one as this man, what would be the fate of such a daughter? She asks herself. Would he try to limit the necessities that a Bene Gesserit must follow? So again, like first and foremost, she's still a Bene Gesserit, despite being, you know, kind of taken into the countenance of Stilgar and his crew. But uh Stilgar kind of like gets an idea for a lot of these questions. Like he kind of intuits that you know she's not necessarily comfortable with it. And he's able to read social cues. Yes, yes. Still Stilgar, and again, this is something that she notices also is that she's very impressed with Stilgar, just in terms of leadership and like you said, reading social cues and everything. Like she even at one point he's like, Who where did this man come from? Where do you learn such inner balance? And so Right, right. What is his background here? What is his background? You know, did he did he have a Benny Gesseret? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, right? That's that's certainly a a question. Yes. So we kind of get on, and she says, like, well, there she asks, there's several alternatives, and she's he says the the Cyadina, our Reverend Mother, is old. And she's like, the Reverend Mother, but uh yeah, he's like, I I probably shouldn't take you as as one of my wives, essentially, because the the young men might think I'm too soft and interested in the pleasures of the flesh. So basically he says it'd be a bad idea. I like this. My young men who have reached the age of wild spirits, you must be eased through this period, because I would have to maim and kill among them if I give them too many reasons to challenge me. So I like this. A leader is one of the things that distinguishes a mob from a people. He maintains the level of individuals, too few individuals, and a people reverts to a mob. And that's what she said here. Where did he learn such inner balance? And then he goes on a little bit here. The law that demands our form of choosing a leader is a just law, but it does not follow that justice is always the thing a people needs. What we truly need now is time to grow and prosper, to spread our force over more land. And uh she says, Stilgar, I underestimated you. So to your point earlier.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:12

Such was my suspicion.

Michael Kentris 1:17:15

Yes. And so they kind of come to an agreement here. So in a little bit of a description of the Cyadina, uh, they are not formal leaders, they hold a special place of honor, they teach and maintain the strength of God here, you know, in your heart. Um And so she needs to find out more about the Reverend Mother. And uh it said, uh, Benny Gesserit will hold and her offspring hold the key to our future. Right. And he's so she's trying to figure out, you know, do you think that we are the in two of this prophecy? And he's like, I don't know. And she kind of, you know, figures out, like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:49

He's still holding out because there's some sort of cue, some sort of, you know, extra sign that he needs, but trying not to kind of tilt, give us any sort of undue bias to, you know, have him believe that.

Michael Kentris 1:18:04

And something kind of interesting here is it sounds like with that she kind of forces this memory upon herself. There's some sort of like keyword activated sort of remembrance that she forces upon herself, like I said, and then kind of goes into this trance of saying this whole kind of I don't know how you would describe it necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:30

It's it's definitely a very sort of formalized scripture of some sort.

Michael Kentris 1:18:35

Yeah. So it's it's kind of interesting. So should they they talk uh this Dar al Hikman, which roughly translates to like house of wisdom or house of knowledge, specifically of like religious teaching. And this this is a a thing in real life. Uh kind of dates back to the 10th to 11th centuries, and so it's been used by various other organizations since then, but that seems to be the earliest instance that I found. And so the adab, which is like etiquette, good manners, moral conduct. So as you were saying, kind of like this this thing that's been ingrained into her, like in this training. Kind of like a like a trigger setting or something. Yeah, it's it's very interesting. So Ibn Kirtaiba, she said, as far as the spot where the dust ends, I see a freeman with the book of examples. He reads to a lot, which we talked about previously as kind of being like a pre pre-Islamic god. The son whom he defied, son S-U-N, I shouldn't say, whom he defied and subjugated. He reads to the sadus of the trial, and this is what he reads. So a sadhs or sadus, um, are heroes, saints, sages, which are primarily found in Hindi epics. I thought it was interesting. So we get a little syncretous. So again, right, this is another one of those things I had to look up. Like, is this real? Is this like kind of whole cloth here? So this does seem to be a whole cloth, but it really does match a lot of again, kind of that ancient wisdom literature slash poetry from like old religious writings. So it really has the the right tempo and imagery that would be suggestive of it being like a legitimate writing somewhere. And so we get some call and response here, essentially. Some people say, Their works have been overturned, and she says,

Signs, Scripture, And Cyadina

Michael Kentris 1:20:20

The fire of God mount over my heart, and they say, The fire of God set a light, and then thine enemy they reply, The fire of God set a light, thine enemy shall fall. Bila Kaifa, which that part is uh a real phrase as well, which translates to roughly without asking or knowing how. So a phrase kind of indicating the acceptance of God's will, despite not knowing the details. So yeah, that seems to be exactly what Stilgar was looking for. Yes, the sign uh the sign has been made. Yes. And then he bows Stilgar bows to her and says Cyadina. So he basically acknowledges her as a cyadina, you know, appears to be like some sort of like, you know, wise woman, mystic type of figure in this culture. Uh while it hasn't been explicitly described, uh is kind of the flavor we're getting here, is that they're like well versed in knowledge and uh like kind of esoteric rites and such.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:12

All right, some sort of matriarchal society.

Michael Kentris 1:21:15

Or at least some sort of priestesshood, if you will. And then she's like she feels cynical bitterness at what she had just done. It's right, it's this kind of weird, cynical thing about religion in general, right? The the Bene Gesserit have created the environment for this religion to take place, but is it a true religion? Is it just a tool? Is there anything to it, right? So, like, how can there be a prophecy if the whole thing was made up out of whole cloth? I think it was kind of hinted at, as you said earlier at the beginning of this chapter, from the passage from the Princess of Rulin, right? Where it's like the prophet versus the prophecy, you know, what is fate? What is basically things that are observed by the person that they're able to strike at the right moment to affect the changes that they quote unquote see. So this whole thing of you know, fate and destiny versus free will, I think, still remains in interplay here.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:12

Yes. And so all that's going on, obviously, you know, everyone else in the cavern is watching as well. So Paul's standing beside Chani, and he had eaten, again, the leap raft food, the bird flesh and grain bound with spice honey encased in leaf.

Michael Kentris 1:22:29

And he realized that he had never eaten such a concentration of spice essence, and there had been a moment of fear, because again, he's concerned that this level of spice concentration is going to push him back into that waveform mode, his men to it mentat plus straight up.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:51

But uh, so yeah, Shawnee's like, again, taken in by the whole kind of not sham, but kind of sham of the the exhibition, if you will.

Michael Kentris 1:23:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:03

Yes, by Lady Jessica. So she's also whispering the Bila Kaifa.

Michael Kentris 1:23:09

Yeah. And can we just say uh you know, bird flesh and grain bound with spice honey and encased in leaves. So let's just say heavily cinnamon flavored meat and grain. You know, you and I will come from a uh Greek background. And uh that sounds very similar to many dishes kind of in the region, kind of to the the Mediterranean at large. So it sounds kind of like a dolmada to an extent, you know, like something wrapped in a grape leaf, which has various fillings, whether it's meat or I mean, usually it's like lamb or beef, but uh they can be vegetarian as well, and lots of different regional variations in them, certainly. So it certainly sounds to me like something that would be very and everything, I shouldn't say everything, but many things in the cooking tradition are heavily spiced with cinnamon.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:52

So or Right, right.

Michael Kentris 1:23:57

You know, all all of the desserts are like honey and spice, or uh cinnamon and honey, I should say. That's that spice, gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:07

It's the melange.

Michael Kentris 1:24:09

Right. But uh but essentially, yes, right, it's very evocative, I think, of that that Middle Eastern culinary culture to an extent. And so Paul's looking around, and the only one that doesn't seem to be kind of taken in by this whole performance was the man he had messed with earlier, Jamis, Jameis. Like he stands aloof from the ceremony, holding himself apart with arms folded across his breast, obviously, you know, still kind of peeved about having lost to Paul earlier.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:36

And so Paul just kind of takes that in right before he kind of goes into prescient mode.

Michael Kentris 1:24:42

And so And we have your favorite phrase here again. Man, it's terrible purpose, his old friend. It's rising up. It's rising up a note to myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:55

Yes.

Michael Kentris 1:24:56

Paul tripping on spice again.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:59

Yes.

Michael Kentris 1:24:59

Basically, right, uh, we do, right? We get this kind of like whirlwind kind of thing going on again. Uh he could view time, sensing the available past, the winds of the future, the winds of the past, the one-eyed vision of the past, the one-eyed vision of the present, and the one-eyed vision of the future, all combined in a trinocular vision that permitted him to see time become space. There was danger he fell to overrunning himself. The flowing moment, the continual solidification of that which is into the perpetual was. Which, you know, so so yeah, tripping. He's tripping on spice. Yeah, hard time. And so again, he's getting another another glimpse of the pathways and whatnot. So I did like this one part where it's described as kind of a Heisenberg indeterminacy, where, you know, things that may be, things that could be, all determined by what could happen but hasn't happened yet. But uh yeah, he's kind of, you know, you know, like last time, just freaking out a little bit. And so the vision made him want to freeze into immobility, but this too was action with its consequences. Which reminds me very much of Rush with even if you choose not to decide. You still have made a choice, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:15

It's the exact same thing.

Michael Kentris 1:26:17

Now, should we talk for those who might not be familiar with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle? Do you want to take a crack at that, or do you want me to like you go ahead. Like I understand it to a degree, but not enough to make me sound intellectual while doing so. That's okay. I mean, that's was this is not a science podcast. But I mean the the general idea is that right, you can have a set of possibilities and then you have like the basically the known observations. So you kind of think of it like it's mostly with like electron clowns. So you can know the direction and the relative like likelihood, statistical likelihood of something being in a place. But like once you observe where it is, those other possibilities collapse, right? So it's the collapsing of these possibilities into a single reality, essentially. That is a vast oversimplification, and I'm sure that someone would be able to um actually me for sure if they so desired. But I mean that's that's the general idea here, right? Like we get um we get Paul in a couple of these instances at the center of these vast web of possibilities here at the end of this year, to move forward a little bit, uh time nexus within this cave, boiling of possibilities focused here, wherein the most minute action, the wink of an eye, a careless word, a misplaced grain of sand, moved a gigantic lever across the known universe. He saw violence with the outcome subject to so many variables that his slightest movement created vast shiftings in the pattern. And as you said, freedom in immobility. But the countless consequences, lines fanned out from this cave, and along most of these consequence lines he saw his own dead body with his

Spice Visions And A Deadly Nexus

Michael Kentris 1:28:00

With blood flowing from a gaping knife wound. So that's the waveform, right? So once you observe one of these, the other possibilities collapse, right? They no longer exist. So hopefully Paul escapes the knife wound with his blood flowing out. But but this is like the blind spot, right? So his visions stop here at this nexus of potentialities. So it's kind of interesting that um that in some theological circles, they'll also describe a body. So not a physical body, but a spiritual mental body as a nexus of potentialities and powers, right? If we get like kind of mystical with it for a second. So so we kind of have here this same thing, right? This is a nexus of potentialities. And so until those other potential outcomes are eliminated, his way forward remains unclear. So kind of interesting. I always enjoy this kind of like timey, whimey stuff. It really strains my ability to understand things a lot of the time. Now you can either do that like in a good way or a way that just leaves everybody confused and disoriented. And it's really hard to kind of ride that balance a little bit. But but when authors do, and obviously, you know, uh Herbert's like kind of a very good author, but um I always find it very satisfying when you finally move past that point of confusion to comprehension. And that's it's that kind of tension release, tension release that you get with uh with a lot of good stories. So any final thoughts on today's chapters, Will? Not particularly. I mean, obviously, you know, they are moving towards what their initial goal was to find refuge among the Fremen. So in that aspect, they at least have succeeded. There we go. But uh obviously there's a much more immediate pressing concern now of, oh hey, I'm gonna get in a knife fight probably with somebody.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:51

Gotta make sure I survive that next hurdle. Yes, that is a good point. What are your thoughts? Were your closing thoughts here?

Michael Kentris 1:29:59

Yeah, I feel like we're, you know, the end of book one, we had kind of this climax, and it kind of was a little bit of a de-escalation, and now we are again kind of in a rising action moment. And so we've got some exposition, we're we're learning some more about the Freeman culture, the dynamics within their social group, and it's kind of providing some background for events that are coming up. And so I think what we're seeing is Paul and Jessica are about to find how they fit into the Freeman culture. And so that's going to be kind of the interesting thing is seeing what are the trials and tribulations that they have to go through, the rites or rituals that must be accomplished to gain purchase in this society, and what will those roles be, and how will those shape the future of the story going forward? So I think that's kind of where we're we're headed as far as the kind of the rising action. So I think we're building up to another climax here. And we are, as I said, right, we're a little past the halfway point in this book. Um, you know, good storytelling has a lot of these kind of like, you know, rises and falls as it goes. And this is a fairly long book. So, you know, can't just have one climax, otherwise it'd just be like, you know, 400 pages of rising action, which would be insane. That would be hard to achieve, well, at least. Yes, very much so. But but yeah, I think this is good. You know, it's been a transition, right? We had the kind of the imperial section initially, and now we're moving kind of into the the Freeman, the desert power section.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:35

Yes.

Michael Kentris 1:31:36

And what comes after that, I think, is going to be a little bit more mysterious. Are we going to get what everyone's hinting at with that like guerrilla conflict? Are we going to get some sort of uh religious awakening of the Freeman? What will that look like if it is? And um, you know, what are the consequences of that? Because obviously, you know, these books are what's 60-ish years old at this point. I think it was 1965. And we know that there are multiple, multiple sequels, uh, I've heard some better than others. But um so the story will still play out further, and you know, people will have to let us know. Should we should we continue reading Dune in this? Should we you know bounce around? We might bounce around a little bit. At least a little bit. At least a little bit. But uh but yeah, to your original question, I feel like this is rising action, and we're we're building up to a kind of a a climactic moment as far as like some ritual, right, with respect to you know the Reverend Mother uh type position, right? Because there's another Reverend Mother here. So this time a Freeman Reverend Reverend Mother, and we already saw how impressive the the initial Imperial Reverend Mother was. So it's very interesting. There's been a lot of information giving in a non-info dump kind of fashion. So I've I've enjoyed that. Right. No, it is nice again to have some level of context or world building where you you understand the rules to some extent.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:00

So, you know, there there is a concrete definition to what is and isn't possible. Yes.

Michael Kentris 1:33:07

So let us know what you think. Do we miss anything? Correct my pronunciations, I'm sure I messed them up badly. And uh, you can always message us on X at BrothersReading. You can email us at brothersreadingbooks at gmail.com. You can also find our website, brothersreadingbooks.com. Well, talk to you next time. Talk to you next time, Mike. Bye. Bye.