Dune Part 11 - Fremen Rites And The Water Of Life

Paul and Jessica learn more about Fremen life in the sietch. We experience the mysterious Water of Life and the strange effects it has on both our characters and the Fremen at large. We revisit the Baron and his plans for the future once again.

Transcript

Welcome And Scope Of Today’s Read

Michael Kentris 0:05

Hello and welcome back. Thank you for joining us. And you are listening to Brothers Reading Books, your sci-fi fantasy and other literature book club. We are your hosts, the brothers who are reading. I'm Michael Kentris, and I'm joined by my lovely brother, Will Kentris. How are you doing today, Will? I'm doing very well. How are you, Michael? I'm I'm doing all right, you know. Uh end of the week, going into the weekend. Glad to be here today. We're we're continuing our read of Dune, which has been fun. I know this is, again, we've said this a couple times over the last however many episodes. This is your first read through. This is a, I think, third read through for me. And uh it's been really enriching, I think, to do a deep read-through on this. There's a lot of things that I'm picking up on that I had not in the past. And uh yeah, I'm just uh overall having a good time. Yeah, I mean, I this being my first time reading it, I definitely don't dive into it, I feel nearly as deep as you have, but I get the benefit of your deep dive by listening to it. So it has been both an informative and enjoyable experience. Awesome. Well, good. I'm glad we're both finding this enriching, and hopefully you, dear listener, are as well. So today we are doing uh chapters 36 through 38, which will put us into the first chapter of book three. That's right, the final third of Dune. And uh, you know, this is uh I think we'll get talk about it when we get there, but this is uh a nice, nice little leaping off point. So I found it very enjoyable. Like, oh, I had an O moment when I turned to that chapter. So it's nice that I can still be surprised uh after reading this a few times. So we start off with, as always, a passage from the Princess Arulin, this time from Stilgar's preface, though. So it is uh Stilgar who is writing here. And so I think this is worthwhile to read here. Muad Deep tells us in a time of reflection that his first collisions with Erican necessities were the true beginnings of his education. He learned then how to pull the sand for its weather, learned the language of the wind's needles stinging his skin, learned how the nose can buzz with sanditch, and how to gather his body's precious moisture around him to guard it and preserve it. As his eyes assumed the blue of the Ibad, he learned the Chobsa way. So just a couple phrases here. Obviously, uh we get some intimations about like what are the skills of one needs in the open desert here. But also uh I just love the phrase phrase, his body's precious moisture, which again, right, we've been talking about moisture and water a lot on these uh recordings. And uh it's just good to continue to see that. Something else was the the blue of the Ibad. So I did look up the word Ibad here, and it roughly translates to servant or slave. And uh I thought it was interesting that we kind of get this through implication that uh Ibad is how the freemen refer to themselves as as the Ibad, like kind of like the people or the tribe, right? Or the servants. So that implies if they are servants, whom are they serving, right? But Shahalud. It's always a reasonable guess. Right. Yeah, Shahulud whose uh passage cleanses the world, I think was the phrase from the earlier chapter, or something to that effect. Anyway, and we have to remember Chacobsa is like the hunting language, which is some sort of synthetic thing that uh Frank Herbert came up with based on some real world tribal languages from like kind of like Saharan Sub-Saharan Africa. If memory serves. So anyway, well, you know, again, I'm going to pitch it over to you for our 50,000-foot view summary of the next three chapters. Let's just do the first two chapters actually, since we can hold let's hold off on book three until we get to that point. So in this first chapter, chapter 36, Paul and Linda Jessica reach their new home. So they they reach the siege. And then in chapter 37, uh Lady Jessica drinks some water. Understated as always will. Yes, and then proceeds to trip out. So yes, no, I think that is that is well said. So we get this uh return to the siege. So we kind of get some some cultural hints here as far as like, you know, the the need to avoid detection as you return, right, to not endanger the tribe, right? There's all these animal calls, people talking about how you know you need to make sure to your noise doesn't break the environmental background noise. So the tribe's good at that, except for Jessica and Paul. Something that I thought was interesting here, wind-raked dead leaves strewed the cliff base. So dead leaves, right? That again, right, this implication there's plant matter around. We know this is autumn, the month of cap rock, which when I looked up the word caprock, all I could find was in fact rocks that are caps, or caprocks, if you will, that are some sort of geological formation that are sometimes over like oil reserves or other kinds of, again, geologic structures. So I didn't find a deeper meaning to that necessarily. Anyway, we get some chastisement of Paul for his water discipline here. He's not wearing his clothes entirely correctly in Chinese, saying like you waste moisture. And I love this little phrase here. A whispered command behind them demanded silence. The desert hears you. Sometimes it's just like the way that you say something, right? It's like, oh, it's like they could have said be quiet, but instead they're saying like the desert hears you. So it implies, right, that the desert itself is a character, that it has a sentience or a consciousness. So I just like that uh that versimilitude, if you will. That's that's definitely been something that was going on for a good chunk of the book where yeah, Arrakis has kind of been like this. Not just a stage, but something that they referred to, yeah, as an entity, just in terms of, you know, the Arrakis is your enemy and things of that sort. So just to see it be prevalent in kind of you know the culture and verbiage that they use is it's nice. It's consistent. Right. It feels fleshed out. It does, right? It has, yes, a a realness to it, an immediacy. So we get these little sounds, right? The bird chirps, a pumping mice sound. Uh so kind of these what I believe are meant to be kind of a call and response for uh guards and approaching groups, and so we kind of get this little back here, and then there's a stillness of breath, and then these covert glances towards Chani. So we kind of get this hinting that something's going on with Chani, and as they get back, I won't jump too far ahead, but um she gets taken away, so they get into the siege. Yes. And I love this this description of uh Paul slipped out his nose plugs, swung the mouth baffle aside. The odor of the place assailed him, unwashed bodies, distillate esters of reclaimed wastes, everywhere the sour effluvia of humanity with, over it all a turbulence of spice and spice-like harmonics. So it smells real strong, basically. Very pungent. Yeah, you know, effluvia is just one of those words that never sounds pleasant, basically. I tend to think of like the stuff that sloshes around in the bottom of a portijon when I think about effluvia. But uh, you know, stuff like that. So anyway, so Chani gets taken away, and uh, you know, you heard the message, poor Chani. Right, so the other people understood this message, right, from the the sounds of the birds and the thumping of the mouse-like sounds. Obviously, Paul does not know the language yet. So we we basically get a a reveal here that well we have the as another readers have known for a while, is that Lietkines has died due to Harkin and treachery, and so now she is in mourning essentially when she comes back. Yes. Yeah, she has like a green scarf kerchief that she's tied around her arm, where in this culture, instead of black, they use green to indicate mourning. Right. Because they wear black all the time, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

It's true, it's true.

Life Inside The Sietch Economy

Michael Kentris 8:34

But one one thing I wanted to also touch on is you also get kind of a little feedback from the lady Jessica. She also takes out her nose plug and everything. She handles it a bit better than Paul does, just because, again, he's just taken aback by the stench. And she says, How rich the odors of your seats still, guys. So you do much working with the spice, you make paper, plastics, and isn't that chemical explosives? And apparently this is something that she can intuit all from the various scents that are mingling in the air. And even someone else is like, you can tell all this just from the smell. So I feel like this is something that Paul should also ideally also be able to mend to it, but perhaps he is distracted by all the various kind of sensory overload and other areas, other capacities. Right. And it is important to remember that you know Lady Jessica's an adult and he's still a teenager essentially. But and this is one of those things that that always like kind of flummoxes me a little bit, right? So we have the spice, which is this kind of like psychotropic life extending the geriatric spice. And then we also get well you make it to make paper and plastics and explosives and you know, who knows what else. Right. I just like, what what are you? But I guess that's kind of like the the kind of fictional mystical element of this chemical, essentially. I did think it was funny. It was kind of a catch-all material that can be used for any number of things. Right. You know, oh it's like, you know, it's like, oh, you got a little scratch, they just throw a little spice on it, you know. A little spice on it. Right. You know. It's like the Windex of Arrakis. Oh my gosh. So So anyway, yes, we get um, you know, Shawne returns at this point, and yes, Lyette's dead, and uh, you know, Paul gets angry about it. And I like this. We have this character here from the the group that they were traveling with named Faroque, very similar to like a Farouk, and she's like, Does Uso hunger yet for revenge? And then uh basically, before he can answer, we get this description of a new character. And uh I like this here. He was confound himself in an open space confronted by Stilgar and a strange woman wearing a flowing wraparound garment of brilliant orange and green. Her arms were bare to the shoulders, and he could see she wore no stillsuit. Her skin was a pale olive, dark hair swept back from her high forehead, throwing emphasis on sharp cheekbones and aquiline nose between the dense darkness of her eyes. And she has golden rings threaded with water tallies dangling from her ears. And basically her first thing she says here is an insult. Like this bested my Jameis, she demanded. And uh we get from Stilgar, be silent, Hera. It was Jameis's doing. He invoked Tahadi al-Buran. So if I may indulge in some etymology. So please. So Hera, which I thought this was interesting. So this is from a kind of a Hebrew root which is similar to Hagar, but uh it means essentially to become pregnant or to conceive, which I thought was interesting as we learn in a few moments, because we learned this was James's woman, and she has a child by James. She has two sons, one from her previous man and one from Jameis. So she has two children, and then we also know, right, if we think of the Abrahamic tradition, so Abraham had more than one wife, so one of them was named Hagar, which is essentially kind of a a transliteration of Hera, and that is the Yeah, she he had children by her when he was unable to conceive with his first wife initially. So it does have some implications here as far as, you know, some some sort of ancient line, if you will. I don't know. What do you think of that? I mean, it definitely sound stands to reason, uh just because it does seem like uh with him having bested Jameis in this trial of combat, he does take on this burden, or I don't know if you want to say burden here, but basically taking on the responsibility, yeah. Of not only her for at least one year, but the responsibility of her two children, since that was previously Jameis's responsibility, who had also previously bested her first husband, partner, man. Yeah. Uh so uh it sounds like at the very least, yeah, there there is this responsibility of trying to make sure the children are cared for in perpetuity till they're at least reach age of adulthood. I do think it's kind of interesting how you know all all the friend that we've been introduced to so far have been ones that we've seen out in the desert. So to see one who seems like spends basically her entire life in the siege is a stark contrast to what we've seen so far.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

So kind of seeing her in this framework of the housewife, more or less.

Michael Kentris 13:39

Right. Yeah, the in-see, if you will. Which we kind of got a hint of that when uh Thufer was with that uh group of freemen, right? That when he refers to like you were caught in siege, right? They weren't wearing their still suits. So this is uh kind of we have some hints that the the in-seach dress is different than than what they normally have to wear going around out in the desert. So again, right, kind of like what is the home life versus what is the outside life, so to speak. And then just to remind everyone, the Tahadi Al-Burhan, right? That was the challenge, which meant challenge of the proof, essentially, right? So kind of like a formal ritual combat.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yes.

Dew Collectors And Desert Ecology

Michael Kentris 14:16

So, so yeah, uh, but uh she's like, How old are he? Are he oh Stilgar asks, like he's 15 standard years, right? And but she's like, My child, my children are made fatherless by another child. Surely twas an accident. I just love that. So we kind of get this back and forth, you know. He's like, he's got the weirding ways, right? Right. Don't challenge him. Right, right. So yeah, his mother is an outfrain cyadina, mother to this lad. They're both masters of the weirding ways of battle. And she's like, This Lisa Al Qaeda. So Yeah, there's a there's a lot of whispering in these next two chapters. I I have a note here. I'll mention it more when we get to it, but uh husking. You know, people don't speak sometimes here, they husk. That's right. Uh I don't know. But uh but we'll see. There's a couple characters that do it, and it's just one of those things where it's like where a word kind of sticks in your craw for a moment. But uh is it overused in these chapters? Yeah, probably. But that's okay. Um we'll make some allowances. So so yes, we learn that he's got two sons, his yali, his quarters, uh his coffee service, right? Very important things, coffee service, and this, his woman. And so he's asking how you accept her, right? This is one of those traditions, and it's like, do you accept her as a woman or a servant? And Paul's like, if I accept her as a servant, may I yet change my mind at a later time? And you apparently have a year to make your decision if you change it. So and then I love Hara's reaction here. Uh she stamped a foot, shook her shoulders with anger, but I'm young. And uh basically saying, like, you know, she wants to I can only assume that you have more status as a someone's woman or spouse than you do as their servant, which just makes sense to me, I suppose. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

At least, yeah, a certain level of equal standing, I would say, you know.

Paul’s Place Among Jameis’ Sons

Gathering For The Rite

Michael Kentris 16:08

Yes. So basically, she takes him back to their quarters, his quarters now, and they he uses the voice on her at one point here, right? Show me my quarters, Harrod, we will discuss your youth another time. And she like she backs away and is like, he has the weirding voice she husked. This is the first husk game, but not the last. So uh so anyway, you know, she's like, you know, kind of afraid of him essentially, and she's like, You'll not cast me out when the year's gone. I know for true I'm not as young as I once was. And basically, you know, it's like, as long as I live, you'll have a place with me. So he's you know, doing the upright thing here. And then, yeah, we're kind of uh Paul still kind of trying to grasp the general culture, uh, because you know, this is somebody that she had previously the woman of Jameis that he has now killed. And he's just wondering, like, why don't people hate me? And ultimately, he has participated in these various rituals, like, you know, he vested Jameis in fair combat. Uh, you know, you participated in the funeral rites where they had the whole ceremony. Uh, she even references the fact that he cried for Jameis. Silgar said you gave moisture to the dead. Is that the truth? And she mentions like it's more than I'll do or can do. So and then I thought this was a little ominous. In the time of mourning, I'll mourn him. So I yeah, I'm kind of curious what does that actually mean here? Because you know, we obviously already had a ceremony where you know the tribe reclaimed the water of J Manso, right, and put his shade to rest with like kind of the ritualized granting of his worldly possessions. Yes. So yeah, definitely, definitely curious to see, you know, if that comes back at any point soon. It's a fair question. And so I I thought this was interesting, a little more look into the right, because uh we can't just have you know descriptions. We get a little bit of like kind of economic background here on the uh the Freeman culture. Yes. So as they're walking here, uh we kind of walk by various like production areas. So he sees some people at a stand-mounted machinery with an extra tempo of urgency. They're looking to finish the quota in the plastic shop. We need many dew collectors for the planting. And they're planning to flee, right? So we get again, right, we've had these background information, but you know, they've been in the deep desert for a period of time, so they haven't had news necessarily coming to them. So we know the Harkinans are right, they're trying to stamp out the Freeman essentially. And we when we had those flashes over to the Baron and his group, now they talk a little bit about that as well. So basically, they'll continue to hunt them until either they drive them off or they lose interest. And uh so we get this description of do collectors. And it's like, what are dew collectors? And he's like, Don't they teach you anything in the wherever it is you come from? And uh I love this. All right, so we get some some economic and ecologic description here, if I may indulge. Each bush, each weed you see out there in the erg, she said, how do you suppose it lives when we leave it? Each is planted most tenderly in its own little pit. The pits are filled with smooth ovals of chromoplastic. Light turns them white. You can see them glistening in the dawn if you look down from a high place. White reflects. But when old Father's son departs, the chromoplastic reverts to transparency in the dark. It cools with extreme rapidity. The surface condenses moisture out of the air. That moisture trickles down to keep our plants alive. Dew collectors, he muttered, enchanted by the simple beauty of such a scheme. So I thought one one thought I had here was dew collectors seems kind of not necessarily obvious, but I feel like, you know, there is an implicit understanding of what that means. I I did have written down here, Paul can't meant to at context clues. Like Yeah. I thought, you know, with this prescient site that he has coming and going that you know he's able to at least kind of understand to some degree what a do collector is being utilized here for. I I do vaguely recollect, you know, I remember back many, many moons ago when I was uh a youth in the Boy Scouts, um, you know, Will and I grew up in Ohio, right? Uh not necessarily a water poor environment. But I remember reading about like desert survival stuff. It's interesting. But uh one of the things they talk about is a way to collect dew, exactly as they talk about here, where you kind of you dig a pit and you lay like a plastic tarp or some sort of sheet that is water impermeable across it way when the dew does come, you are able to collect that and uh kind of put it into a canteen or some such. So it it is a thing that happens with these temperature shifts. So this is a little more fancy with the kind of the transparent changing plastics, but uh I mean the principle's roughly the same. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So as they keep going here, um, we get a little description, a little more background on Jameis. Good man, quick to anger, good provider, wonderful with the children. Uh, made no separation between Jeff's boy, my firstborn, and his own true son. They were equal in his eyes. Would it be that way with you, Osul? And he says, We don't have that problem. And she's like, but if. So her her implication here, I think, is quite clear, right? Like if if she were to be his woman, so to speak. Then we get another factory, we get a weaving factory, um, and then beyond that, there's food processing and still sue maintenance. And she says, I'm good with suits, I work in the factory in the season if your suit needs repairs. So and they finally reach the home. So it's uh it's both implied and explicit, I think, here, as far as the description. You get uh heavy carpets on the raised ledge, rooms with bright fabrics on the walls, piled cushions. Oh, and she says, you know, people find it strange you bested, Jameis. You'll likely have some proving to do when we're settled in a new siege. And uh Biggs says, I don't like killing, and she doesn't believe him essentially. Right. Nobody does. This was interesting as well. We get I keep walking, and we get a uh a glimpse into a schoolroom here, which was interesting. A chalkboard against the far wall with a woman in a yellow wraparound, a project stylus in one hand. I wonder, is this like a like a laser pointer? That's what I was envisioning it as, yeah. Yeah, a projectos stylus. You know, this was written in the nineteen sixties, right? A little more like solid, almost like a lightsaber type thing. Maybe like a physical light, hardened light. I don't know. I don't does that exist in this world? I guess with shields, kind of.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Kind of, yeah.

The Water Of Life Revealed

Jessica’s Transformation And Ancestral Memory

Michael Kentris 22:52

Who knows? Anyway, in my mind it's going to be a laser point supplier. Yes. So they're just pointing at designs on there, and the children chanted in rhythm with her moving hand. And we get, you know, tree, grass, dune, wind, mountain, hill, fire, lightning, rock, rock, sus, sand, heat, shelter, uh, you know, so on and so on. Like a bunch of words here. Shelter, heat, full, winter, cold, empty, erosion, summer, cavern, day, tension, moon, night, cap rock, sand tide, slope, planting, binder. So And he's like, you conduct classes still, right? They're in the middle of an evacuation, but they're still teaching the children. And she's like, Liet taught us we cannot pause an instant in that. He must Liet, who is dead, must not be forgotten. It's the Jacobs away. And so they reach the quarters. But uh, but yeah, I thought it was interesting, right? We have this very cultural thing, right? Working up until the moment that you must leave, right? Waste no time. Absolutely. Yeah. And it does seem like this classroom is kind of the uh legacy, I suppose if you want to put it, of Liette Kynes. So, you know, in addition to Liet wanting to obviously make the world habitable, you want to make it habitable for the Fremen. So I know he's been referenced several times as kind of like a leader, which is how he was able to get this troop to come find Paul and Linnae Jessica in the first place. I do wonder if his role was primarily just with this siege or with a larger group of them in general. Although I guess we have been told they're kind of like a little more tribal in that capacity. So I guess it makes sense if he was only relevant in this siege. Well, we don't know that necessarily, right? There there is some implication that he has some standing in a broader sense, but but we have a limited perspective so far, so I'm sure we'll find out. So I just like this, this inner monologue that Paul's got here, that this Freeman world was fishing for him, trying to snare him in its ways, and he knew what lay in that snare, the wild jihad. So he he uh he keeps ruminating on this jihad vision that he has had, and he's continuing to try and avoid it. But as they said in a previous chapter, right, the only way would be if he, his mother, and everyone in that uh were wiped out at that point in time. Obviously that did not happen. And so, you know, onwards and upwards, I suppose. So again, we get his place here, thick blue carpets, blue and green fabrics hiding the rock walls, glow globes tuned to yellow overhead, bobbing against draped yellow ceiling fabrics. The effect was that of an ancient tent. So the the implication and the explication, if you will, right? This is again very, very much a like nomadic kind of feeling, even though they are like in a cave, right? So, yeah. The children are with a friend, uh, Hara explains, so they're not there presently. And ultimately, uh yeah, Paul kind of asks about like why aren't we packing? And like you said before, they haven't gotten close enough yet. So they they are kind of waiting until the last moment so they can keep being productive, keep doing what they need to do before they do have to pack up and leave. So yeah, she makes some comments about his eyes, how he doesn't have the blue eyes of the Abad. It's strange, but not entirely unattractive. And he's like, get the food, I'm hungry. And so ultimately, yeah, she goes to get food, and he gets again assaulted with some more smells. There's some burning creosote bush that comes to his nostrils, riding on the omnipresent stink of the siege. And so Paul saw that he had already suppressed the odorous assault on his senses. So again, just the there's a lot of stuff going on as far as sensory overload. And then just kind of like sitting there waiting, the two boys come back and uh they got Chris knives, and they look a little uh suspect of right, right. Because again, they don't know about I assume his Janus having passed yet, so just alright. And that's kind of how the the chapter ends. Paul recalled the stories of the Fremen that their children fought as ferociously as the adults. Right, right. So yeah, we we get a little bit like it's a subtle difference in the culture, right? There's no poison snoopers, but he could smell poisons, strong ones, common ones, right? It's it's a different different flavor of culture, right? There's a a trust, like if you're part of the tribe, you're part of the tribe, right? Which again, this is as we've seen demonstrated time and time again, this is an honor culture, which means that there are highly ritualized ways to deal with disagreements face to face. So that's I think part of why we see this, right? We aren't seeing this backstabbery that we saw with the nobility and the Lands Rod and all that kind of stuff. Instead, we have this kind of like, you know, I won't stab you in the back, I'll stab you in the chest with a knife. Right. To your face. So anyway, yes. Moving on, chapter 37. Another we got a little short description here from the manual, a manual of Muaddib by Princess Arolin. The hands move, the lips move, ideas gush from his words, and his eyes devour. He is an island of self-dom. That's interesting to me. So the self-dom part, right? Because a lot of what we've gotten with Freeman culture so far is about the tribe, right? A collective idea, less about the individual. And but here, an individual self. And there are, right? There's there's certain cultures that don't have a word for like privacy, things like that. It's is an interesting concept, which you know, us as modern-day Americans, right, we're very much an individualistic culture, much less collective than, say, like a lot of places in East Asia or other parts of the world. So just something to pay attention to, especially kind of as we go into the rest of this chapter, where there is very much an emphasis on collective memory, if I may. But uh set the scene for us well. What do we see? Absolutely. So we jump now to the Lady Jessica's perspective, and we join them in a giant cavern, even larger than the sort of rooms that she had seen in her hall of the Benny Jessuit school. So she's standing there with Stilgar. Apparently, there's several thousands of people there, even more continuing to come and gather. And it seems like there's kind of like an air of inquiry, just in general, hanging in the air. The air was murmurous with people. Murmurous, murmurous. Yeah, I always love sentences like that where you get this crossed, basically these odd adjectives, right? Things that just kind of perk you up because they lack familiarity, if you you know. But um, I like this. There's this r this technique he uses here in this chapter. More than 5,000 people were gathered, right? And we get this like more than 10,000, more than 20,000. So there's this repeated emphasis through the chapter about the continuing gathering of this large amount of people. Also, it gives us an idea of the size of the siege, perhaps. You know, so we get tens of thousands of people here, which, you know, in the middle of a highly inhospitable desert, hospitable, sorry. Yeah, it's a lot of people, right? And they have to move all these people too. So there is a potentiation here, right? There's something in the air. So they talk about a decision to make. And does she want Paul to be involved with it? And she's like, nah, basically. My decision stands. And she worries here, she has an unborn daughter to think of as well. What endangered the flesh of the mother endangered the flesh of the daughter. And so we don't know what's going on, but there is an implication that it is dangerous, right? Yes. Yeah, some sort of trial. Right, right. And that's that we kind of been getting this over and over again, right? So first it was Paul's trial. I should say first there was the physical encounter with Stilgar's group, then there was the ritual combat, and then now we've got this. So this is Lady Jessica's ritual to undergo in this setting. Right. Yeah. They don't explicitly come out with it right away, but Paul does get summoned, and she sees that he is now being flanked by the two small boys that he was previously introduced to. So Stillgar mentions the sons of Jameis, who are now the sons of a soul, they take the escort duty seriously. And he kind of like smiles at her to kind of get her a little loosen the tension a little bit. Obviously, you know, there's a very uh dangerous upcoming ritual coming up that, again, we don't fully understand at this point. But it seems like Paul is at least adjusting decently well to things. It seems like there's been at least some sort of time skip here. I don't know if it's been just a few days or a few weeks, but Lady Jessica does mention, like, yeah, I have no choice but to do this. We must move swiftly if we're to secure our place among these Fremen. So, you know, with kind of the implications of her being a cyadina, oh, is it a frame cyadina in references to a reverend mother previously? We can assume that it's some sort of capacity of her taking on a larger role within the community.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Right. So very true.

Communal Trance And Paul’s Vision

Michael Kentris 32:09

So so yeah. Uh you know, we get Chani coming back around. She's got lines of grief, she's got the green kerchief on her left arm for her mourning, as we kind of talked about earlier. And the two sons of Jameis had explained to him by indirection, telling him they were no green because they accept him as guardian father. And uh I like this a bit here as well. Are you the Lisa on El Gabe? They had asked, and Paul had sensed the jihad in their words. You know, Paul's Paul's surrounded by jihad. So he basically dodges the question. But we get the names of these two children. Caleb the elder was ten, uh the natural son of Jeff, or Geoff, I'm gonna say Jeff. And Orlop the younger was eight, natural son of Jameis. So, you know, Jeff and Orlop, those sounded like very English names to me, or maybe, you know, Norman, if you will. Yeah, I I I don't understand a lot of the sort of etymological context for many of the names we encounter, but Orlop definitely stood out to me specifically. Yeah. Yeah. It's like almost like like Olaf or Right. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, we do get a little bit of historical background on the Freeman, kind of like in their prehistory when we move forward in this chapter, which I thought was interesting. So yeah, right, we get more senses here, his prescient memories to plan a way to prevent the jihad. He wondered if any plan could prevent the wild outpouring of fanatic lesions. Right. So he he spends a lot of time thinking about this right now. As he's thinking, we get a new arrival to the cavern. Four women carrying another woman in a litter. The woman in the litter, a crone, wrinkled and shriveled ancient thing in a black gown with hood thrown back to reveal the tight knot of grey hair and the stringy neck. The Reverend Mother. She steps in front of Jessica before speaking in a husky whisper. Sorry. So she says, You're the one. The shout out Mapes was right to pity you, and Jessica replies quickly and scornfully, I need no one's pity. That remains to be seen. Hust the old woman. Anyway, now now that you pointed it out, I can't not see it. I'm sorry. I've ruined it. I've ruined it. I don't think it happens much more after this chapter. But uh but yes, there's lots of husking going on from uh Hera and from the Reverend Mother. Yes. In siege. It must be an in-see speaking pattern.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Yeah.

Michael Kentris 34:38

Um it's like uh it's like a regional accent, uh, you know, like northern Midwestern uh op or something. I don't know. Just gonna say going right by you. So we get some uh different uh words here that sound a little strange here. We are the people of Mizer, miser, the old woman. Oh, she rasps here. Uh our Sunni ancestors fled from Nilodic al-Oruba. We have known flight and death. The young go on that our people shall not die. So we we get a lot of words here, and you might be wondering, are these real words or are these made-up words? And these are real. So miser is uh it's derived from the Arabic name for for Egypt, which makes sense because Nilotic is a phrase that refers to the Nile. And so, and then Al-Ar Aruba basically means Arabic. So these are Arabic people from Egypt around the Nile. Okay. And we know uh yeah, most people are probably familiar with the Sunni and Shiite uh divisions within Islam. So kind of referencing back to this group of people, essentially. So that's that's what I got. I didn't do a deeper dive. I'm sure you could go deeper than that, but uh that's what I have to work with at the moment. Hey, that's that's a lot more because yeah, the only one that stood out to me was Sunni. And so I was like, okay, I'll just uh keep reading. Yes. But uh yeah, it kind of gives us an idea, so like kind of a reference back to old earth, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Mm-hmm. No, absolutely.

Book Three Begins: The Prophet

Michael Kentris 36:09

So Stilgar starts off this this present this ritual. Tonight we must leave this siege that has sheltered us for so long and go south into the desert. The Reverend Mother tells me she cannot survive another Hajra. I looked this word up here as well. So basically, I think and this makes sense, right? This is related to the word Hajj, which is a a religious journey, you know, to to Mecca in Islam. But uh another Hajrah here, so this is a journey to leave one's home. And yeah, we have lived before without a reverend mother, but it is not good for people to seek a new home in such straits. So that this may not come to pass, Stilgar said, our new Sayadina, Jessica of the Weirding, has consented to enter the rite at this time. She'll attempt to pass within that we not lose the strength of our reverend mother. I like that name, Jessica of the Weirding. Right, since that does seem to be kind of her main attribute that a lot of the tribe has kind of been like focused on. Like, hey, don't mess with her. She knows the weirding way. So does her cub. Right, her cub. And they uh they go further, right? So that we may not lose all if she fails. So they're both kind of getting like a uh promotion and ranks here simultaneously. Yeah. I was reading this, and so Chani has returned from her Hajra. Chani has seen the waters. Has she she has seen the waters. Has she done the same thing that Lady Jessica is about to do? It's kind of my wondering at this point in time. That is a good question. And I feel like the answer is not quite the same. I wonder if there are different types of waters, because as we go forward here, right, they refer to this as the water of life. Yes. Specifically. So is this maybe a less potent version? Because there's a much more involved procedure and description of events that the lady Jessica provides us here as opposed to what it seems like Chani may have gone through. And it hasn't been that long, as far as I'm aware, like maybe hours. They came to the siege in the morning, or maybe evening, I forget. I my days and nights are turned around in the story. They're backwards. But uh But it feels like it's been less than a day. So I don't know if if that would have been the case. So my my gut says different, but uh I don't know. Gotcha. It's earlier on the track to Reverend Mother, potentially. And so the old woman, uh, I consecrate the daughter of Liet in the Cyadina, husked the old woman. So we get some call and response, she has accepted. And uh Paul's thinking, like, if she should fail, you know, kind of like, what does that mean? It has implications. It reminded me a lot of Macbeth when uh Lady Macbeth is basically telling us like, screw your courage to the sticking point and we will not fail. Yeah, not a good role model. But uh so she has a a kind of a superimposition in her memory here, right? Thinking that she has the same aura of power as the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Moeim, who had tested Paul with the agony of the gom jabber. But this is the Reverend Mother Romalo, whose voice speaks as a multitude. Say this to you. It is fitting that Chani enter the Sayadina. And I like this. The old man nodded, whispered, I give her the silver skies, the golden desert and its shining rocks, the green fields that will be. I give these to Cyadina Chani, unless she forget that she's servant of us all, to her fall the menial tasks in this ceremony of the seed. Let it be as Shai Hulud will have it. She lifted a brown stick arm, dropped it. So yes, right, they they call forward the water masters here, and they each have a small skin sack, perhaps twice the size of a human head, full of water, sloshing.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Yes.

Baron vs. Feyd: Schemes Within Schemes

Michael Kentris 40:04

And I think this a furry redolence of cinnamon arose from the sack. The spice, she wondered. Jessica, that is. So we get this very it's right, it's a very ritualized kind of like call and response sort of thing going on here. Is there water, Shawny asks. There is water, Sayadina, he said, but we cannot drink of it. Is there seed, Chani asked. There is seed, the man said. Blessed is the water and its seed. So I thought this was interesting, right? So we get a lot, right? This is very much a life-giving kind of thing. And if I may also indulge in some speculation once more, God, I I'm indulging a lot today. That's very good. But uh So uh in the book of Genesis, people talk about the seed of Abraham, and so there is some debate among different Christian sects about is it seed singular or seed plural? And I tend to subscribe to more the seed singular, uh. you know, you know, Jesus Christ, the Messiah. But uh but there are those who say seed plural inasmuch as the children of Abraham more broadly speaking. And so this again, it kind of just ties into that Abrahamic tradition, I think, a little bit here, where God says that you know your seed will be more numerous than the stars. Oh, I should probably just let me bring this up here quick. Get the quote right.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Got Lady Judy shouting at you. That's he is eh.

Ambitions For The Throne And A Brutal Lesson

Takeaways And Listener Invitations

Michael Kentris 41:30

Genesis 127. The Lord appeared to Abraham and said, Alright, he was Abram at this point. This was before he changed his name. The Lord appeared to Abram and said, To your offspring I will give this land. So he built an altar there to the Lord who would appear to him. Now, this is the new international version. Let's go, no, let's go King James, right? That's what we've been using the rest of this book here. So in the King James version, we And the Lord appeared unto Abram and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land, and there builded he an altar unto the Lord who appeared unto him, unto him. So, so yeah. Uh and this kind of depends on if you're using like the Masoretic text, which is from the the kind of medieval Hebrew, versus the Septuagint, which was a translation into Greek in the, oh gosh, like second or third century BC. Um and that was so if you're using the Greek, they use a singular seed, you know, spermatose. But uh so it's it's kind of interesting, like depending it right, it's like which which book, right? People talk about the Bible, but it's like, well, which Bible? Which translation, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So anyway, I thought that was a I feel there's some implication there. So anywho. As we go on, uh have you tasted the blessed water, Johnny asks. And uh Jeff, before she could answer, Chani says, It is not possible that you have tasted the blessed water. You are outworld outworld and unprivileged. And then a sigh passes through the crowd, a susseration of robes. The crop was large and the maker has been destroyed, Chani said, and she began unfastening a coiled spout fixed to the top of the sloshing sack. Dangerous sense boiling up. So this is a I think this is just such a such a good scene, right? They're really building the tension here. And all they're doing is like it's a jug of water, right? But uh they're able to make it just have this portentous effect. So they continue. I know I'm reading a lot here, but it's just it's just so good. Chani lifted the spout to towards Jessica and says, Here's the water of life, the water that is greater than water, Khan, K-A-N, the water that frees the soul. If you be a reverend mother, it opens the universe to you. Let Shah Hulud judge now. And as this is going on here, Jessica's worried obviously about her unborn child, the effects on it. Does she have the right to risk us both? But there's no turning back. So she goes forward, and she's wondering, is it a liquor, a drug? She smells the esters of cinnamon, remembering then the drunkenness of Duncan Idaho, spice liquor? She takes a tiny sip. But uh as she takes that sip, Johnny presses the bag down and it just gushes into her mouth. So and I like this to accept a little death is worse than death itself, Johnny said. She stared at Jessica waiting. So I thought that was that was interesting. It has a feeling of like a you know idiomatic expression to me, but and like kind of like the uh you know a coward dies a thousand times, a hero only once, that kind of thing. But uh so anyway, we got this gushing liquid, uh she's getting drugged up, and then stuff gets weird. So, yes. That's putting it lightly. Right? She uh it was like any other drug of her experience, and Benny Jesserit training included the taste of many drugs. So I like this. We get this she becomes a conscious moat, smaller than any subatomic particle. She realizes she had become aware of a psychokinesthetic extension of herself. She was the moat, yet not the moat. And that's M-O-T-E, by the way, not a not a river of water around a fortified structure. Right, like a dust moat. So she had heard that there were, you know, people who did not survive the Reverend Mother ordeal back at the Benny Jesus school, and she feels this is a frozen instance of time. And so her personal time is now suspended to save her life. And she has to look back, and she realized there's a pit of blackness from which she recoiled. This is the place where we cannot look, she thought. This is the place the Reverend Mothers are so reluctant to mention, the place where only a Quisatz haterach may look, right? The male Beni Gesserit, right? Which is kind of interesting, right? We we have this idea of like a race memory. They've mentioned several times throughout the story, and now we're getting this implication that it is perhaps tied to one sex. Whether you're male or female, you can only look at like one of those lines, except the quisatz haterach. I believe they imply can look at both, which is the exception. But most of the time the males who have I shouldn't say most, every time a male has tried to do this, they have died. Yes. So yeah, she keeps kind of doing some searching with her frozen time suspension moat self and searches for the danger and finds that it's within the drug she has swallowed. It's interesting here, kind of she starts describing all the familiar structures and atomic linkages in this drug that she's consumed. A carbon atom here, helical wavering, a glucose molecule, entire chain of molecules confronted her, and she recognized a protein, a methylprotein configuration. Like, ah. It was a soundless mental side within her as she saw the nature of the poison. Yeah, from what I'm kind of taking away here is it's almost like she is transmuting the poison that's within herself to make it not this deathly concoction. I think that is exactly what's happening, right? Because we get this shifted in oxygen moat, which I assume let's just say atom, if we plan allow another carbon mote to link, reattach the linkage of oxygen, hydrogen. So yeah, right, with this idea. And I mean, this is like a fairly common chemical reaction where we have like protein methylation. Like that's a way that like in biological processes things can indicate like uh like a done versus undone status if you'll indulge the oversimplification. And um yeah, shifting things right things are always shifting to a lower energy state, right? The ease, like where is the direction of the thermodynamic decline. So anyway, that being said, we don't get enough details to say, like, is this like legit legit? But that's okay. We don't need to necessarily talk about how we're changing chemistry with our minds to change poison into just like a psychoactive drug.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Right. So we do that every day when we drink alcohol, I suppose, too.

Michael Kentris 48:00

So yeah, it sounds like she successfully does the transmutation, the catalyzation that is required of her for the ceremony. And then she notices that Trani puts the tube spout from the sack back into her mouth to collect some of the moisture, and it sounds like that this is then also going to further transform everything else that was in the sack that was not poured into Lady Jessica's mouth. Right. So yeah, basically the catalyst for the reaction. So basically changing all of it to not poison. Yes, because as we find out here shortly, everybody's gonna have a little sip-sip of it. So but before that happens, she's placed next to the old Reverend Mother Romalo, and they're sitting next to each other, they're touching hands, and that's when the Reverend Mother also kind of develops a psychokinesthetic moat of awareness that is able to communicate with Lady Jessica, and they start talking, more or less, about what's to come for her. And more or less she's like saying, you know, you'll have it all soon, Jessica. Jessica's like, this is a hallucination, obviously. The Reverend Mother's like, you know better than that. Swiftly now, do not fight me. There isn't much time. And then she kind of is taken aback, like, you should have told us that you were pregnant. So what has happened to Lydia, what is going to happen to her, is going to change not only her, but also the daughter, her unborn fetus. So they don't know what's going to happen to her. They just know that it's going to change hers drastically. Right. Right. Because instead of having like like most human children, a gradual introduction of experiences and being shielded from things that may, you know, an infant or a young child may not be ready for. Right, she's getting exposure to all of these life memories from the Reverend Mother, and indeed beyond that, right, this entire chain of life memories from everything that the Reverend Mother herself has been carrying forward. Right. And so she she feels now this mouth within herself, and she feels uh the terror that it has. And so she works to kind of calm it down, and the terror recedes. And so basically, like, this is unfortunate, but the tribe needs this, so we must do it. So I like this. It was like a lecture strip in a subliminal training projector at the Benny Jesuit school, but faster, blindingly faster. And in my mind, I'm thinking of like that scene from like Clockwork Orange, where they're just like showing scenes, bop, bop, pop, bop, bop. Um, but we get a lot of images here, you know, a a man that it seems a reverend mother used to love, and we get some other things here, different little flashes. The old one was dying, and in dying, point out her experiences into Jessica's awareness as water is poured into a cup. And then she realizes I am now a reverend mother. And yeah, so that that is what happened. And then she feels guilty that she allowed this to happen to to her unborn child. Mm-hmm. Right. I did it, my poor, unformed dear little daughter. I brought you into this universe and exposed your awareness to all its varieties without any defenses. Yeah. And it seems like the fetus moat is not completely destroyed, or it's it it seems to have some semblance of being okay. Right. It recedes a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Yes. Yes.

Michael Kentris 51:41

So yeah, she gets a little tiny outflowing of love comfort, like a reflection of what she had poured into it came from the other moat. So very interesting, right? That implies that there's like some sort of, at this point in time now, some sort of mental processes going on that you wouldn't expect from an unborn child. So to me, this implies that, yes, there is a change already occurring. I like this. Before Jessica would respond, she felt the adab presence of demanding memory. And this was, I looked this up, a category of Islamic law dealing with etiquette. So basically, like this kind of mandate that she she has to, which you know would be redundant, mandate demanding, right? But uh anyway. So she must go on with the uh the process. Yes, with the ceremony. So and she gestures to the water sack that Johnny has and has been blessed, Jessica said. Mingle the waters, let the change come to all, that the people may partake and share in the blessing. So it sounds like that the everyone else who's going to drink from this catalyzed drink is going to have some not necessarily the same experience, but almost like a similar experience of being able to kind of sense each other in a collective sort of manner. So to at least a similar extent to what Lady Jessica is experiencing. Yeah. And uh we basically get this this other memory. They say, let them have their orgy. They've little enough pleasure out of living. And I was like, huh, okay. Yeah. So I I haven't watched the uh the second Dune movie, uh, the recent one, so I don't know if this was played out in the theaters as well. Yeah, I'm trying to remember. I I don't think there was an orgy, but I I could be wrong. It's the director's cut. No. Anyway, man, I hope we don't have to put a content warning on this. Anyway, jumping forward. So we continue reintegrating the memories from the Reverend Mother in Jessica, and she realizes now the Freeman culture is far older than she had suspected. And we get some reference here, Freeman on Poritrin, people grown soft on an easy planet, fair game for imperial raiders to harvest and plant human colonies on Bella Teguse, and a name we recommend or recognize here, Seleusa Segundus, the prison warrior planet. And we get here, they denied us the Hajj, right? So kind of a reference back to like the Hajra, Hajj, this religious pilgrimage. We get these kinds of kind of like these uh prison fashion sort of things where they're passing down like an oral tradition through these different areas here, and then sciadena after cyadena, first by word of mouth, hidden in the sand shanties. I like this. Kind of like uh like a modern day example would be like kind of like the gospel style of singing, um, like the slave shanties, working in the fields, things like that. So kind of like it gives me a similar flavor. And then they discovered this poison drug on Rossack, and then the developed the subtle strength on Arrakis in the discovery of the water of life. Another voice screamed down the inner corridor, never to forgive, never to forget. And this revelation was interesting. Jessica's attention was focused on the revelation of the water of life, seeing its source, the liquid exhalation of a dying sandworm, a maker, and as she saw the killing of it in her new memory, she suppressed a gasp. The creature was drowned. It's like, where do you get enough water to drown a sandworm? Great question. That's a lot of fracking water. More mysteries regarding the sandworms. Yes, yes. I like this. I'm like a person whose hands are kept numb without sensation from the first moment of awareness until one day the ability to feel is forced into them. And I say, Look, I have no hands, but the people around me say, What are hands? So, anyway. Very much like a, you know, kind of Plato's cave sort of thing. But Paul asked her, Is it okay for me to drink this? And she's like, Leave me alone. But uh and she's like, You can drink it, it has been changed. So, yes. So she is she is properly drugged up now, and she's just like chilling. Yes, like muzziness to her senses, uh warm and soothing. How beneficent these freemen to bring her into the fold of such companionship. So now I kind of switch perspectives a little bit to Paul here. And uh he could assemble some knowledge about it, like kind of observing what it's doing to his mother, but he doesn't completely understand. And he realized suddenly it's one thing to see the past occupying the present, but the true test of prescience was to see the past in the future. And so basically they're saying, like, drink it, lad, you delay the right. So so yeah, basically, he drinks it. He drinks it. And uh Tony also drinks it. Everybody's drinking it, everybody's having some. And uh yeah, he's he's kind of concerned initially because he's realizing that as he's about to drink this, it's going to kind of trigger another one of those. What was the term that he's used previously? His Nexus visions or yes, the waves. Yeah. Kind of again, him. I don't know. It it's definitely like a certain sense of dread of him being aware of like what's to come since most of those pasts lead to the jihad.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

The jihad. The jihad, his terrible purpose.

Michael Kentris 56:56

I think we do get that sentence later on this chapter. Probably. But uh so anyway, uh Shani kind of pulls him away, and you know, she's worried what his mingling of his thoughts would do to the rest of the people, so she kind of takes him away. And they they have this moment, he tells her that he's had these visions of them together in his in his past, you know, episodes of Prescience, and he names her Sahaia, the Desert Spring. It's a pretty name. And so uh she's afraid to share with him something frightening in you. I did it because I could feel what the others wanted. You press on people, you make us see things. And Paul has his thought. They have a little of the talent, but they suppress it because it terrifies. So yeah, they uh we get uh Paul, you know, kind of beal style, he falls into a dream. He sees time stretch out in its weird dimension, delicately balanced yet whirling, narrow, yet spread like a net, gathering countless worlds and forces, a tight wire that he must walk, yet a teeter-totter on which he balanced. And we get this like long cataloging, and to me this seems kind of like what we've had in the past, where it's a catalogue of future conflicts and plot points that are laid out in front of us, and then the question is how will those be fulfilled? So he says on one side or I shouldn't say he says, he thinks, on one side he could see the Imperium, a Harkin called Fade Routha who flashed toward him like a deadly blade, the Sardacar raging off their planet to sped pr to spread pogrom on Arrakis, the guild conniving and plotting, the Beni Gesserit with their scheme of selective breeding, they lay massed like a thunderhead on his horizon, held back by no more than the Freemen and their Muad Dib, the sleeping giant Freeman poised for their wild crusade across the universe. So But yes, and he's he's seeking peace, right? This thin wire of peace with a measure of happiness, a moment of peace between periods of violence. And so Paul starts crying. And uh like this. Chani says, Usul, my strength, do you give moisture to the dead? To whose dead? And he says, To one's not yet dead. I like that. Uh I thought that was that was well done. But uh they go back and forth a little bit, you know, providing comfort to one another, and he basically says, You're the strong one, Chani, stay with me, and she says always and kisses the cheek. So I don't know. I thought it was a pretty powerful ending there, right? Uh a lot of vulnerabilities revealed in our character, right? A lot of his anxieties. Um what are your thoughts on on the end of this? This is the end of book two here. Book two, that's right, that's the last chapter. I thought it was pretty solid. Like definitely the part with Lydia Jessica in particular was certainly a little hard to follow or at least visualize. There was definitely a good chunk of it where it's like, I understand these words individually, but together, I don't necessarily what 100% they're trying to convey. Now, I will say this. When I have read this book before, I felt exactly the same way because it is very much like a trippy 1960s, like LSD acid trip kind of thing. And that is how I remember this when I had read before. This time it seemed so much clearer to me. And I don't know why that is, if I was just reading it more intently, or if it's become somewhat familiar to me, which I don't know what that says about me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

But drink of the waters of life.

Michael Kentris 1:00:13

The waters of life, baby. But but yeah, it I don't know. I guess this is this is probably one of those books. I mean, it's almost certainly one of those books that benefits from multiple readings, but it it does seem more clear to me, where you kind of have an idea of what is happening in the future, and so you know what's being referenced to an extent. While my memory is not perfect, obviously. I know a little bit about what happens later in the book and what is just kind of like fluff versus what is like clear foreshadowing. So I think that that probably helps a little bit because like as I said previously, I think the first time I read this I was in high school, and the second time was just a few years ago when the first of the remake movies came out. And so it's only been a few years since I've read it, so it's a little more fresh in my memory, perhaps. But it didn't feel like even the time that I read it just a few years ago. I remember reading this and being like, oh my gosh, what is happening? This is so, you know, trippy. But uh not so much this time. I don't know, reader, what do you think? Our dear listeners, was this too trippy, just trippy enough? Did it make sense? You know, that's that's always a thing I find with with sci-fi from this era is that it's either like really kind of hard sci-fi, or if it gets into some of this metaphysical type stuff, it gets really goofy. I know one book we've talked about before, um, it's kind of on our to-be read on the podcast list is Neuromancer by William Gibson. And I feel like a lot of that book is like this, where it's just like so cerebral and abstract and it's challenging to follow sometimes. We'll see if we'll see if I do better whenever we get around to that. But uh yeah, anyway, that's my perspective on it. So we get a so book three, The Prophet. The Prophet. The Prophet. So I'm gonna put you on the spot, Will. What do you think of when you think of a prophet? So I mean, it definitely puts me, of course, in a religious perspective. You know, you've heard about all the uh popular ones with the various Abrahamic religions.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

Right. Honestly, one of the biggest ones that comes to mind is like Muhammad.

Michael Kentris 1:02:20

But uh yeah, it's kind of like a a leader at the very least. I know also this if you look at it from the perspective of kind of like a more fantasy type perspective as well. Obviously, you know, there's been many references to prophets in those sorts of books. I want to say in like The Bulgarian and Melorian by David Eddings, there's references to a lot of uh works by prophets and right, like some chosen one type of situation, right? Very common trope in fantasy novels. So it definitely does impart some level of prescience as well, just being able to know what's going to be coming. Just for yeah, for me, it's definitely kind of this combination of yeah, religious slash future telling. Right. I always think of it as kind of you know, someone who has had some sort of revelation or encounter with the divine and has brought that information back to the people, whether that is in the form of spiritual teachings, moral guidance, some sort of leadership from a worldly perspective, right? It's often like to provide some sort of corrective or revelatory information. So that's that's kind of how I think of it, which I think that's pretty like if you go through like the Old Testament and uh certainly, you know, through through the Abrahamic traditions there, a lot of it is like like wisdom literature, moral instruction, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I I would basically agree with that. So the question is, who is the prophet to be determined? Although I think we have our guesses at this point, but we'll see. We'll see if that bears out. So we get another book by the prodigious Princess Arulin. This time it is from Count Fenring, a profile. So we get a little bit of commentary on the Pasha Emperor, and he has no woman, no man, no child ever was deeply intimate with my father. The closest anyone ever came to casual camaraderie was the relationship offered by Count Hasimir Fenring, a companion from childhood. I like they talk about two ways to see his relationship in the positive light and the negative light. So the positive, he allayed the Lansrod's suspicions after the Arrakis affair, and then second, in a negative sense, he refused to kill a man even though it was within his capabilities, and my father commanded it. I will relate this presently, looking forward to that. But uh yeah, it uh it does make you wonder who was he instructed to kill and who did he not kill. Right. So anyway, so we get a hard scene transition to the Baron, Vladimir Harkinin. And I feel like we're getting kind of like a two or three to one as far as like Paul and Jessica to Harkinen perspective. Something roughly in that ratio. Absolutely. Yeah. The Harkin chapters are kind of in there to almost serve as like bookends to storylines. Right. We kind of get uh perspective because we've been very limited in scope and the amount of information that our main characters have in the Freeman setting, right? So very limited to Arrakis, just that narrow slice of Arrakis even. And then here we get kind of more of the imperial perspective, like an interstellar political milieu. Although also this this particular chapter does bear down to the private quite hard, also, in some, I think fair to say, grotesque ways. But um I like this. The Baron Vladimir Harkinin raged down the corridor. So so he rages. Again, this is probably not an intentional thing, but it does catch my eye. You know, like the opening line of the Iliad, uh like sing muses of the rage of Achilles, Peleus' son. Probably not a direct reference, but it it evoked it for me at least. So so anyway, right? It's the opposite as opposed to being like a, you know, peak physical warrior specimen. We have the fat, uh degenerate Baron. So he bobbed and twisted in his suspensers with violent movements. Right. He just everything about him is grotesque. You know, from his you know, the way they describe him physically to his thoughts, to his actions, like just everything about the man. So so anyway, he is tracking down his guard captain Nefud. Uh he finds him basically high on Samuta, listening to Samuta music with his own little posse, his court sitting around him. And basically, uh Baron is unhappy. Yes. He's raging. I like this. This is a nice way of saying it. Uh long have you been my guard captain to food? He swallows since Arrakis, my lord, almost two years. So we get a jump forward in time, which I thought was very interesting. Book one to book two was basically instantaneous. So now this is our first, as far as the story goes, somewhat significant jump in time. Everything else has been pretty measured, with maybe the transition from Khaled into Arrakis being the biggest jump in time up till now, maybe of like a few weeks or a month or two. But um but now we've got two years, so a lot of stuff has been happening, and we get some implications of things developing as the conversations go on here. Right. It seems like tensions between Phaedrotha and the Baron have some level of friction there, let's say. Which is, yeah, putting it lightly.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Right.

Michael Kentris 1:07:36

So the Baron kind of preempts this whole conversation of like, have you always anticipated dangers to my person? It's like, of course, my lord. Then where is Phaedrotha? And it's like, do you not consider Phaedrotha a danger to my person? So again, just kind of reiterating over and over, like, hey, Fadha should be an object of your concern. You should know this already. And so we learn that Phaedrotha is down the slave quarters. Apparently that's one of his frequent haunts with the slave women down there in the pleasure quarters. So the Baron kind of, yeah, reiterates again. Did I not command you to know precisely where the Gna Baron was at all times? Did I not say to you that you were to know precisely what the Naw Baron was saying at all times and to whom? So again, we are spying on Fed Rotha. We do not trust Fade Rotha. He is a danger to the Baron, most likely because the Baron, you know, is the only obstacle saying his way of him becoming the Baron, Fayed Rotha being the Baron. Absolutely. And so he had, you know, because the Baron's disgusting, he had a slave boy sent to his quarters. And uh, did you perchance not see the blemish on the thigh of the one sent to me this evening? And then as he's ranting, Fayed Rotha appears behind him, and uh he finds that he looks a little hurried, and the Baron deduces that Fayed Routha has his own spy system, right? So this is a spy versus spy type situation here. Right, feint within feints. As we will say explicitly later. Yes. And the Baron says, There is a body in my chambers that I wish removed, uh, and he's got, you know, basically a hidden projectile weapon under his robes, thankful that his shield was the best. And uh I presume you left matters peaceful in the slave quarters, Fade. I've been playing chops with the slave master, some sort of like those pyramid chest. The boy we sent to my uncle, and the Fade Roth thinks, the boy we sent to my uncle has obviously been killed. He was perfect. Even Hawat couldn't have made a better choice. The boy was perfect. And then Baron asked, Did you win? And he's like, Baron says, Nifed, you wish to be restored to my good graces. And he's like, What have I done? Like, that's not important. Fade has beaten the slave master at Chops. Did you hear that? Yes, sire. Uh I wish you to take three men and go to the slave master, go roat the slave master, bring his body to me when you finish, that I might see it was done properly. We cannot have such inept chess players in our employ. Just like, oh my goodness. Now, uh something I skipped over here. Fade Routha nods at two of the guards there, and they obey Faye Routha. And so they carry the uh slave boy, yes, to get the body from the Baron's quarters, and as they go past, they uh stagger past the antechamber door, and the baron watches until they're out of sight, and uh the Baron next says, And when you finished, add those two who just passed to your list. I don't like the way they carried that body. One should do such things neatly. I'll wish to see their carcasses too. So basically, he's making up these like ridiculous excuses for eliminating the people who he believes are loyal to Fader out then. Yes, cleaning up his uh system of men, his rights, people who are acting on his orders at the very least. So Fade Rotha, of course, realizes that his uncle is seeing through this scheme. And at this point, he's like, all I can hope for now is to save my own skin. And it's it's interesting. There's like this back and forth inner monologue between Fade Rotha and the Baron, which perfectly mirror each other. Like uh it's it's very much that Fade Rotha is like a learned student of the Barons, that he acts in a very similar manner capacity that the Baron does. Right. And that's it happens like multiple times here, right? Fade thinks something and then the Baron says it, and there's not really much acknowledgement of the parallelism between them. Yes. So as Fadroth is walking in front of the Baron, have I failed? Will you slip a poison blade in my black back? And then the Baron thinks, let him experience this moment of terror. And then as they get to his chambers here, they have a little conversation. They have a new prophet or religious leader of some kind among the freemen, the Baron said. They call him Mu'adib. Very funny, really, it means the mouse. I've told Rabin to let them have the religion. It'll keep them occupied. And uh that doesn't go anywhere else, but it is interesting that it's it's reached the ears of the off-worlders. So they reach the chamber, and uh there's subtle signs of a struggle, you know, some lamps, displays, bed cushions on the floor. And then Baron says, It was a clever plan, but not clever enough. Tell me, Fate, why didn't you strike me down yourself? You've had opportunity enough. And he thinks I must be bold now. You've taught me that my own hands must remain clean, right? Kind of going back to the Reverend Mother Truthsayer that sits at the elbow of the emperor. And uh he asks him about that gladiator episode. Was that truly uh sent that slave set to kill you? And uh basically he says it was a sham arranged to discredit your slave master. Um and he said, like if you had finesse and subtlety to match such courage, you'd be truly formidable. And then he just shakes his head side to side. So I thought that was funny. But uh he continues to mourn his loss of Peter the Mentete, a man of delicate, devilish subtlety. So yeah, he he still misses his terrible mentet. But we learn that even though they don't have Peter, they do still have Thufer employed as the mentette. And it seems like he's kind of playing both sides here, both kind of acting as uh mentat advisor role to both the Baron and to Fayed Rotha. Right. And basically he's like, I offer you a bargain, and then Faye's like one bargains with equals or near equals, and it's like you persist in refusing to learn my true value, you're obstinate. This was foolishness, I do not reward foolishness. Get to the point, you old fool, Fade Rotha thinks. To which the Baron replies, You think me of an old fool. I must dissuade you of that. Right? And this is kind of that back and forth that you were talking about. Well, so you he says, like, he had a poison needle on his thigh, right where I'd place my hand.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

Mm-hmm.

Michael Kentris 1:13:50

Um and the Barons think, it would have worked if Hawat hadn't warned me. Well, let the lad believe I saw the plot on my own. And then we get Fadaratha thinking, he can't live forever. And then, like in the next paragraph, like, I can't live forever, can I, Fade? So basically he says, like, here's the bargain. I'm going to set Thufer over you to watch you, and in return, you will stop trying to kill me, and then I will step aside when the time is right for you to ascend and for me to retire. And uh that's the bargain, right? It's like it's like you can't refuse, essentially, right? It's like uh godfather style, I'm gonna make him offer he can't refuse because he has no other heir, right? That's that's kind of the sticking point here, is that there's no other suitable material, as the Baron has said. Yes. And they then they kind of shift to talking about uh Thiefer Hawat and how he is a dangerous toy. He's a weapon. I like this this Baron's assessment of this. Who does Hawat blame for his present circumstances? Me, certainly. But he was an Atreides tool and bested me for years until the Imperium took a hand. That's how he sees it. His hate for me is a casual thing now. He believes he can best me anytime. Believing this, he is bested, for I direct his attention where I want it, against the Imperium. And uh they kind of say, like, against the Emperor? And uh he's basically let him chew on that for a moment. So Yeah, the Baron's ultimate goal is to put the Harkinans on the throne. Right. And uh Faye says, I've learned much from Howat, but the more I learn, the more I feel we should sub dispose of him and soon. Hawat is subtle, he is dangerous, devious. Sword is dangerous too. We have the scabbard for this one. When we withdraw the antidote, death will sheath him. And then we get the famous saying here Faints within feints within feints. In a way, it's like the arena. You watch to see which way the gladiator leans, which way he looks, how he holds the knife. Yes. And uh so they finish their conversation here, except now the Baron said, We'll go down to the sleep quarters, we two, and I will watch while you, with your own hands, kill all the women in the pleasure wing. And so, like, this is his punishment. Learn something from it, the Baron said. And uh basically says, the Baron will not refuse. I know you fade, you will not refuse. And basically he says, like, all right. I think said I will I will need you now. I see that the bargain's made, but I'll not always need you, and someday. So yeah, right, they're both terrible, is uh is the moral of the story. And um, yeah. Like as he's about to go down and and strangle to death however many slave women. Right. That's yeah. Probably a lot. Probably the Harkins have a lot of slaves, if the past descriptions measure up. So yeah, uh they're terrible, and they've got plans for getting him on the throne of the emperor. So And yeah, we've learned just from general context clues that it's been a two-year time skip, and during that time Paul has built quite the reputation for himself as Moad Deep. So it looks like his plan to kind of avoid that jihad isn't working quite as well as he's hoping. Perhaps not. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

Terrible purpose.

Michael Kentris 1:17:02

So yeah, we finished book two. We've started book three. Let's start with a a bang here. And thoughts? I I'm excited to see where it goes. I mean, I wasn't expecting book two to be quite so short. I feel like it was significantly shorter than book one, so I almost feel like it was more of just like a, you know, a transitory transition type piece to be like, okay. They're in the Fremen now. And I mean, that's kind of what it was, right? It was their it basically wrapped up their encounter, meeting the Freeman to being accepted as members of the tribe in a more official capacity for both Paul and Jessica. So it it does bookend that that stage of the journey fairly well. So I think this next part is gonna be a little more less more or less less defined. So it it definitely feels like there's the ramps, the training wheels are coming off here a little bit, and you know, where are things going now? We're we're kind of ramping up, right? The scale is getting bigger again. So, what does that mean with the Freeman, with the Harkinans, with the Emperor? So, where's that gonna wind up by by the end of this story? I I actually don't recall very well. All right. Well, thank you to everyone for listening again today. We will, of course, continue our reading through Dune next time in book three. And in the meanwhile, feel free to drop us a line. You can find us on X at BrothersReading. You can find our website, brothersreadingbooks.com, or you can email us at brothersreadingbooks at gmail.com. If we missed things, if we misinterpreted things, if you have suggestions for future books, you know, Will and I have been talking about that. You know, this is quite a doorstopper for this one, and we're looking maybe doing some short stories going forward, so we've got some ideas, and we'll talk more about those as we get near the end of June. But uh, you know, depending on how much feedback we get, uh, you know, we're open to suggestions, of course. All right, Will, I will talk to you again next week. Sounds great. Looking forward toe, everybody.