Punishment Isn’t Working

In this episode of Halfway Human, we sit down with Dr. Jessica Moreno and Dr. Lawrence Scott, authors of Advocating for Educational Change: Reimagining Student Discipline Through Restorative Practices, to challenge how we think about discipline, learning, and what students actually need to succeed.

This conversation goes beyond policies and into people. We explore why traditional discipline models often fall short, how restorative practices can reshape student outcomes, and what it really means to center humanity in education. At its core, their work pushes educators and leaders to rethink systems that were never designed for every student to thrive, and instead build environments rooted in empathy, accountability, and growth.

Together, we unpack the tension between structure and support, the realities educators face on the ground, and the bold changes required to move from punishment to development. Because if education is truly meant to be the great equalizer, we have to be willing to reimagine it from the inside out.

If you care about the future of education, student success, or simply doing things better than we’ve always done them, this is a conversation you don’t want to miss.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome to another episode of Halfway Human. We have two very special guests in a studio today. They've written a book called Advocating for Educational Change. We have Dr. Moreno, I got it right. And we have Dr. Scott. I just call you Lawrence because I've known you forever. And they've come very prepared. I'm going to tell you right now, this is the most prepared, I guess. They both have printouts. Like they I mean, I'm educated. I was like, what is I'm not even this prepared. Okay, guys. Like, y'all wrote this book. There's gonna be a test, right? Oh no, don't do that to me. Don't do that to me. I guess uh and I'll open up to both of y'all. I'll kind of uh I I have y'all on both sides, but I'll let y'all kind of uh answer these questions back and forth if you want to, but or both answer it. But what uh is the overarching thought of the book for somebody that has not read it or has looked at it? Um, what what is the overall concept of this?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Sure. So the overall concept of the book is that discipline should be handled on a spectrum and not just um be particular consequences for specific infractions. What I mean by that is we have kids that are engaging in behaviors that are requiring consequences when they don't understand what they've done, why they've done it, who they've harmed, and what they can do to be better about it in the future. And so when we talk about discipline in the book, we really talk about equitable discipline, things that we can do to help students learn how to take accountability for their actions, repair the harm, and restore relationships and community in the spaces that they're in.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

So, how did you get involved in this, Dr. Scott? How did you get involved?

SPEAKER_03 2:03

You can have some water if you yeah, no, actually, Dr. Moreno and I, you know, we've been working, we've been doing this for a long time, uh almost 20 years, right? And uh over 20 years. And and we had the pleasure of working together in a uh DAEP, which is a district alternative education program, essentially alternative school. And again, we got to see the power of giving second chances, right? The power of receiving a second chance. And so many of the students there were there for drug-related offenses, over 80%, maybe a little more. And so what we saw is, you know, we can't give a one-size-fits-all prescription discipline, right? So you're there and you're gonna suspend kids or you're going to um exclude them or give them some kind of punishment. That's not gonna work for everyone. If you're there for a drug-related offense, you need something surgical, right? To address that particular need. And that particular need is addiction. So we brought in, you know, cicada, right? Um, we brought in uh Palmers, we brought in uh Center for Healthcare Services, we brought, you know, more restorative uh groups and and and what would that involve? That, you know, we'll get into nuances later, but it involved check-ins, it involved, you know, them contributing to a garden and being on a team in which they can see themselves doing something or contributing to something better than themselves. And then they can build self-efficacy in that self-efficacy, basically saying that I can do this, I can be better, I can actually contribute more because I'm a better person, and I'm not just you know what this paper says on the suspension note, right? I'm not just what my teacher has said to me when I got there, or I'm not just what my parents have said or didn't say when they didn't show up, or you know, I'm not just what my brother was when I went to the funeral of him getting shot because he was involved in gang violence, and I'm not just that. So, you know what I mean? It's it's one of those things where we're given an opportunity for everyone involved, all stakeholders, parents, students, teachers, uh uh administrators, um, community leaders, policymakers, everyone involved to make sure that we holistically uh uh invest into the child and not just the action and the behavior, but the symptoms that cause the behavior.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

So am I wrong? It seems like um prisons like jails or prisons use something similar to this, correct? Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

That is correct. We ac actually restorative justice was born from Native American communities and first peoples, indigenous uh nations communities. If individuals had created harm in the community, they would they would surround them and support them and offer them um ways to rejoin their community and their tribes and and bring them back into the fold. And so in the 70s, I believe, is when restorative justice kind of took its place in the judicial system. And so they're still using that. They do with victims and offenders and the court system, they absolutely do. And restorative practices is very similar, it's just scaled down to where it's able to be used as a proactive approach with relationship building tools and community building tools before we get to the point where we're rehabilitating people in the the judicial system.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

And have y'all found, I guess at the end of the of the day, what was the result that y'all found? I mean, what is the what is I mean, what that's the end goal is how are we how how successful.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

Well, it's funny you mentioned that because the book talks about the actual research. So we shouldn't be able to do that. No, no, no. Actually, yeah, this is the first to uh Dr. Moreno, but uh when we have actual empirical data, longitudinal data, basically data over time, to support once you use this, the independent variable, once you use this as a treatment, you will see the outcome. And and you will see that it works. So uh Dr. Moreno, you want to talk about actual data that we that we were able to disaggregate?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yes, so we did, it was a three-year study at the disciplinary alternative campus at the at the DAEP, and we looked at student behavior. And when we first started, there were many, many expulsions. And so when kids are expelled from the DAEP, they go to the juvenile.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

What's the what's uh just real quickly, D what you're saying? DEAP? DA? DA DAP? Okay, what is that?

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Disciplinary alternative educational placement. It's an alternative school for kids who have committed an infraction against the student code of conduct and have been deemed too unsafe to be on their traditional campus. So they're sent to the DAEP. Well, when something happens at the DAEP and they're expelled, they're expelled to the juvenile justice academy. So now we have entered into the realm of the judicial system. Gotcha. And so what we saw happening was the year before we implemented restorative practices, or the year before they were implemented at that campus, expulsions were um very high. We had 37 kids that were expelled out of that, out of that DAEP that year. And three years later, we had zero expulsions. Also, our out-of-school suspensions went down significantly. So we saw um quite a uh an impact on the behavior with restorative practices and community buildings. We also saw our recidivism, which means when kids come back to the alternative campus or sent back, we saw that decrease as well.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

So we're 7%, like 7% recidivism rate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Very low, very low. And so we we watched this over time. We watched it go down. The amount of referrals that were entered into the system decreased, the amount of kids that were in in school suspension decreased, out of school suspension decreased, and expulsions were gone totally.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

So I guess a high-level question, and I'll go towards you on this, because I know your childhood growing up, you had, and maybe you can kind of kind of give some of your experiences, but what what inspired you? Both can answer this question to write this book.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

I tell people I'm from Eastside San Antonio, but not today's Eastside, not the$300,000 homes and the coffee shops. Yeah, I'm talking about what DJ Quick was like. San Antonio's just like Compton, it's that Eastside. And you can Google DJ Quick. I know you're a lot of your audience wouldn't they wouldn't know who DJ Quick is. But anyway, in the 90s, yeah, the 90s, I think in the 90s, San Antonio like was one of the top drive-by cities in the nation at the time. Crips and bloods were so bad. And so anyway, you know, I was from an east side that was, I would say, underdeveloped, and it was, you know, a lot of things were happening. Uh, my dad actually sold drugs out of the home. So I I I I was acclimated to a whole drug culture, drug and and gang type culture. Sure. Um, and so for me, it was seeing that and seeing that was gonna be my future.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Uh I got in some trouble. I ended up moving to North Carolina with my mother. And my mother had to move away to North Carolina to go to high school. And I think that's what changed my life. I ran into a teacher named Mr. Bago, Mr. Daryl Bago. And from there, he got I got to see the archetype success. I got to see a a young man that he was like 28, but he was like inspiring. He wrote books, he gave speeches, he was our basketball coach, he was a great writer, speaker. And uh fast forward about five years later, I'm going back to him. So I had that archetype in my head of sure, okay, if I'm not gonna be an attorney, what could I do? Well, then I, you know, I was like, oh, I can be like Mr. Bago, make a difference, just like Mr. Bagel was doing. So then fast forward uh after I graduated from college, I got I got to go back to North Carolina and talk to Mr. Bagel and basically tell him, like, hey, uh, you know, I you know, I teach like you, I write books like you, I do speeches like you, I'm a teacher like you, I coach basketball like you, I'm bald like you, I became you, right? I actually named my son Christian after his son Christian. So I think after all that, again, having grown up in a in a drug culture, strong drug culture, I wouldn't say necessarily just gang, but really a strong drug culture, uh, addiction and distribution. And then having some of that, you know, on me, sure. Uh attempting to distribute, but also dealing with my own addiction issues. Um, that for me crystallized my mission of I have to create other, you know, um, just like Daryl Bago was for me, I have to create other Lawrence Scott.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

And so that's what the mission is is is you know, restorative practices allows for, yes, you're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna fall, fall forward, you're gonna make mistakes. Find a mentor, right? Find another uh uh James Chandler, another Dr. Jessica Moreno, Dr. Lawrence Scott, find a mentor, Amir Samandi, a uh Darryl Bago. I was homeless at a time. My pastor took me in. Pastor Keith Graham for a year took me in. And I got to see again another archetype of what's possible. That's what restorative practices does. It creates a nucleus or a community, it creates a family, yeah, uh, it creates a village that allows you to fail, but and take onus and responsibility for that failure, right? Responsibility, the ability to respond, also respond together and let them know you're not gonna move forward by yourself. We're gonna walk this life out through, walk this life out so that you can become the person that you've been destined to be.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Gotcha. And so for you, what what was your inspiration? I mean, I I don't know you as well. So, and he can talk for like he'll he'll take the whole hour if we let him. He will let these as a talk show. He will take the whole my editor will be cutting like a crazy person if we let him loose too long. I might just do the volume down on the book. Mute him. But so yeah, well, why did you get how did the how did you get involved in it? I mean, what what was the inspiration for you, I guess, to do this?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yep. So I I have 16 years in education now, and my calling is to advocate for our children. And that is all I have ever wanted to do, and all I have really tried to do with using my voice and anything that anything that I have and can do to advocate for our children. Um, this book really grew out of the time working in the disciplinary alternative education program, the DAEP.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah, don't make me don't make me say that again because I screwed it up bad. But I'm learning.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

You're doing a great job. Absolutely. For 10 years, I worked with kids who had already been removed from their home campuses, and I kept seeing the same pattern, right? Students were being punished, but nobody was developing them. Nobody was helping them move past this mistake that they had made, and they were being labeled and targeted as these bad kids, quote unquote, bad kids, these disruptive kids, these defiant kids, um, these problematic kids. And so really it was born out of a desire to help them move past the label that they had received and help them feel that even though they had made this mistake, they still belonged to the community. They still belonged to their home campus, they still belonged in society with people, regardless of their drug infraction, regardless of the anger management classes that they were being required to take, things like that. And so later when I conducted my doctoral research on restorative practices, I realized what I had experienced wasn't isolated. And it was actually um nationwide, honestly. I spent several years as a national trainer for restorative practices. And so it's not just the state of Texas or the city of San Antonio that's having these issues with our kids. It's it's it's everywhere. Sure. And it's the same problems. And so I felt a responsibility to bridge this kind of research and real-world um practice and offer educators a framework that holds students accountable while helping them connect to opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Is there an ethnic group that is targeted in this or because I asked you this the pre-question?

SPEAKER_03 14:00

Yeah, well, it's funny you mentioned that. Uh so a lot of our research, and and to uh Dr. Uh Moreno, to Dr. Moreno's point is you know, we've done this work. So what what separates this this uh love of labor, labor of love, um is that we've done the work. So we're both administrators, even and I was a school counselor, she was a behavioral uh specialist, sure. Eve, you know, and we're teachers and coaches and in in other uh capacities as well in schools. What we saw again, uh we saw that uh, and and I'll just use me. Here in San Antonio, I was uh, you know, uh an administrator over a middle school, and uh and I was disproportionately suspending my black boys. What happened is I had to disaggregate the data. I wasn't looking at the data. And a lot of times a lot of people, and this is you know, for a lot of your listeners who aren't in, you know, in in education, a lot of times uh we don't look at the data to support our decision making. Um and so what we have done, and I do that as a professor training the next cadre of principals and superintendents, is I really have them disaggregate your data, look at your data, and then what does the data tell you? Think critically, all right, examine, and then what would be uh uh, you know, what would be a viable solution to mitigate some of those issues. So what we saw, and what I saw, is my black boys and and and and Hispanic boys, I was suspending them disproportionately. Why? Simple infraction. And then they go to the office and then something happens on their way to the office, right? Uh they get into a fight, or they, you know, or they go off, they go off on the the lady at the front in the office. I mean, it's just something simple that could have been de-escalated a long time ago. Sure. Right? If we built the right relationships, train, make sure we attract, train, and retain our restorative thinking, sure, uh uh teachers, not deficit thinking, meaning that those kids are bad, there's nothing we can do, but you know, restorative thinking, like, what can we do to build a relationship so we can help these students? So it never gets to that point, right? And so when I looked at the data, I was like, holy crap, like I gotta change because what I'm doing is I'm creating what we call a pipeline of prison. So if I'm suspending him now and I suspend him for three days, now think about this. And we've heard this, we've been in education long enough to hear this. Teachers say, I need a break. Okay, you know what? I'm gonna suspend him three days. I'm gonna give Ms. Johnson a break. Yeah, so he doesn't have to go to that class for three days. Well, guess what? When he gets back, he's three days behind. Yeah, and if it's something, you know, that's an incremental development. Yeah, three days behind, so he's gonna act out again because he doesn't understand what's going on, especially like in math where there's incremental development. So what we instead started to do is, and I know for me, is okay, I need to pump the brakes on suspending my my particularly my disproportionate groups, my black and uh brown boys. I need to figure out something. So what I did is I created a thing called um Boy Some Men. And Boys to Men was, you know, my students that were not traditionally involved in like, you know, football, you know, sports and and um, you know, any any type of extra activity or anything that would give them a sense of belonging, as Dr. Moreno has talked about. And these kids, I'm telling you, these uh there's a saying, yeah, George Bush said at an NAACP event, I know, I'll say it again. George Bush said this at an NAACP event. Uh he said, no one rises to low expectations. And that's the thing is if you provide high expectations, it's kind of the pygmalion effect. If you provide high expectations for students, they will rise to that. And what I saw is these kids and Boys and Men, these are some of them were selling drugs, some of them, and and unfortunately, I've lost about five of them, got murdered. But um, but some of them actually were wear suits and ties to school. Yeah, they they started believing. They when we had dignitaries come to the school, they would show them around. And then when we have, instead of suspending them, I would have a graffiti uh cleanup on Saturday. So I'll say, okay, I'm not gonna suspend you so you can get a three-day break. Right. You know, no, I'm gonna you're gonna come on Saturday and you're gonna help me clean the graffiti that your gang put on the wall. And so what that did is that gave them again a sense of ownership of their community, and they started thinking themselves of not just this kid keep getting that's that's continuing to get in trouble, but a kid that could be an equitable contributor to the progression of my community.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

So, boys to men, you're also a singer. Can you sing a little bit?

SPEAKER_03 18:15

Remember, we did Oh, you don't want that.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yes, he did single in a in a karaoke thing we did.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

So now we're yeah, go to the show. I blame Juanye, though.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

I blame Juanye Morris for ending. I actually was a singer at St. Mary's uh in a quartet, and my career ended. Fox Kids Fair, I'll never forget. And uh, you know, Fox Kids Fair, 60,000 people. I was I I was so bad singing Juanye Morris's part. People were like, I got a walk in ovation. Like people were walking out, they were walking out. I was like, how so that bad.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

So I'm gonna direct this question to you because was there anything when y'all were coming together to put this together that y'all disagreed on?

SPEAKER_00 18:59

That we disagreed on. I don't think that we disagreed on anything, actually. And it's be it's it's interesting because our lived experience with restorative practices and the kids that we serve are so similar. You know, Dr. Scott and I worked for several years together at the disciplinary alternative school. Um, he was an assistant principal there. I was a teacher. I taught English in the classroom, and then I taught special education, and then I moved into testing coordination and restorative. I was a restorative practices coordinator there. And so our lived experience really just intertwined together. And um I feel like we almost grew up in restorative practices at the same time. And so honestly, I don't know that we disagreed with anything. When we came together and we were like, we have to talk about the marginalized groups that are the recipients of this inequitable disciplinary process, you know, we were we were right there. Yes, that's exactly what we have to do. We have to talk about it, we have to talk about it in a social justice and equity context. Um, because really what we want to do is make sure that when we say every student succeeds, every student has the opportunity and the tools needed to succeed. Because what's being lost is with this push on academics and a necessary push, don't get me wrong, with a push on academics and state testing, what's being lost is our social skills, our soft skills. And so we're not learning how to disagree appropriately. We're not learning how to have conversations where we can accept accountability and say, yeah, you know what, I messed up, man, and I'm sorry, and I'm gonna be better, and here's how I'm gonna do it. Nobody's teaching our kids that anymore, which is which is well, we're not modeling that either. Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

We're not modeling that, right? That's true. True. Adults don't get it yet.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

And they're well, they're growing up on social media now. And when you look at what they're seeing, what they're consuming on social media, I mean, my gosh, is it any wonder that this is how they're behaving or this is how they're acting or this is how they're trying to do conflict resolution?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Because that's what they're seeing online.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Well, I think it it too, you get now, and I won't go too far down a rabbit hole with this, but but AI now is going to, and especially the educational world is going to change everything. I mean, it is. Um, I think not just the social media, but the AI part of it and how we interact with each other is going to get less and less.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I think it's authentic, less and less authentic.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

James, if I may hint on, I wanted to talk about two, and and one of the things, again, talking about uh uh myself and Dr. Moreno's mission, we also want to bridge the gap between academicians, right? The the academy, uh, and and and you know, the theorists, and then the actual practitioners, people on the ground. And I think there's a huge divide um that we've seen. Again, uh Dr. Moreno's been a national trainer. I've been a professor, and also I do trainings and consulting. Is we've seen that there's this big chasm, right? Like you have the academicians that are presenting all this research and they're producing all These papers, but no one's reading it.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

And then you have the practitioners who are using old data or old research to continue a practice with students that are our new generation students, right? Yeah. They're 20, 21st generation, you know, 21st century students, and we're using old practices for new a new way of uh of thinking. I I know there's been studies of how students are are uh their brains are being rewired because of like TikTok and Vine videos and the technology, no commercials, things like that. And so having them sit there for 50 minutes and listen to a lecture is painstaking, right? And so we need to, again, going back to the technological part, one of the things we want to do is make sure we have a medium and a way to make sure that we're training everyone, right? These are some of the best practices if you want to reach students uh on all levels and to even today's students, and then model it. One of the things we did when we were at the DAEP uh at the alternative school is we actually got to model it with our teachers. So our administrators, and she was a part of the cabinet, uh the administrative cabinet. We got to actually do these what they call restorative circles where you have these conversations, you build rapport and and relationship, and you and literally um the you know, we talk about very, you know, and I was again, I have a counseling tradition. I was a school counselor for eight years, uh, and I've done group counseling uh many times, had this tradition of uh group counseling where we we got to see each other in different contexts. We got to see each other as family and a community and not just coworkers and colleagues. Sure. And I think that was a difference. When you see, when I saw uh Dr. Moreno and I got to hear a little bit of her story and I can empathize with her, then I understand why she responds to a certain student the way she did. And then I can support her uh in that response. Uh that's gonna help her and the student. So I think that's that's the one thing that we really want to impress is this book is gonna give an opportunity for you to learn best practices anecdotally and research based, empirical, uh, to support your students in the community.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

So when writing this, who who who is the end user? I mean, who do you want reading this? I guess.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Yes, I want I want anybody in the education field who is currently a teacher, an administrator, a counselor, a behavioral interventionist, a district, um, a higher up district person. I want them to be reading this and to know that there are things that you can do to help build community in schools that will positively impact your academics. And so we put in the work in the front, we're proactive, we put in the work in the front so we get the gains in the end. And so I want I want overwhelmed teachers and administrators to know that there is another way out there using restorative practices for your discipline that that might be world-changing, game-changing for you.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

And another another thing, if I may interject, is one of the reasons why one of the reasons why we we wanted to do this is interject, Your Honor. No, but but seriously, I know you're you're you're um, you know, you have a wide varied uh group of listeners. Uh, and I know you have policymakers, you have uh city council people, you have commissioners, you have, you know, organizational leaders. And so what I wanted them to understand is we need to reinvest back into our schools in this way. Uh, to Dr. Moreno's point, it's not just about the academics, it's that holistic development, right? They're the social emotional uh um heart, you know. Um there um let me give you let me give you a quick story. I had a student when I was at a high school and I was a counselor, and I remember the math teacher kept sending them to the office every day. Well, this student was sleeping every day in class. It was an algebra.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

And so I'd sleep through algebra too.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Who doesn't sleep through algebra? Yeah, right. You know, but but but I'm thinking to myself, like, okay, if you're sending them every day, then you're not talking to the parent, you're not something else is going on. Something else is going on. So finally we found out that this kid, he's 15 years old, right? He's picking up his mom and taking his his uh five-year-old sibling, daughter um sister with him to go pick up his mom from a strip club. Yeah, yeah, and then come home. Yeah and then mind you, no license or probably no insurance, sure. So putting it all on the line and then having to get up in a couple of hours. Yeah. And so obviously CPS got involved and everything else, but then that goes to show, you know, it had we caught this in time, had we had a teacher that was more restorative in her approach, she wouldn't have sent them to the office and necessarily she would have asked more questions, and then we could have got a community around this young man to get him the help he needed.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Do you do you think that that becomes difficult to for the teacher, though? That puts a lot of pressure on a teacher to become a psychologist almost to a degree, because you you have to start asking questions of the student and you're supposed to be teaching. So I I guess how would you answer that question?

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Well, yeah, I I well, I would just say from my from from the administrator slash count school counselor perspective, again, you're you're the first line of offense. You're the first person that can assess a student. And so if you built that relationship, then you would know it's more than just let me send him to the office and get rid of him. Basically, essentially it's get rid of him and he doesn't matter. And so, and and again, I want to really impress this. That's why I really we really wanted to do this uh this interview with your your constituents, is because it's about a community of people. The teacher's not going to support this student alone. It is a community of us that are gonna come together. And and and if I was that teacher and I'm going to uh Dr. Moreno and she's the administrator, I say, hey, uh Johnny, again, he slept. I think something's wrong. Can we check in with the parent? Parents not answering. Can we do a home visit? Can we get the social worker involved? Can we get the counselor involved and figure out why is this kid coming in sleeping every day? I'm not gonna mark him off. And in fact, uh, you know, I'm not gonna do anything punitive, but I just need to know why he's doing that. So she's not gonna go at it alone. Sorry, Dr. Brandon.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, so I want to be very clear when I say that teachers have so much on their plate right now. Absolutely. My gosh. And I I I also want to say that I don't think that restorative practices or community building is putting anything on their plate that they're not already doing. It's just a matter of embedding it into the things that the the practices that they're doing already. Um but I think the big thing is why did this student get so far along in this disciplinary process to the point where they have been excluded from their home campus, sent to a disciplinary campus, and now a teacher who does not who who's just met them, does not know them, is saying, This kid is coming in, he's sleeping, I can't get him to wake up, you know, I'm sending him to the office for you to deal with because I also have to teach. For us to find out at that point that his that his family life is really hard and that he doesn't have the supports in place, mom doesn't have the supports, and other entities have to get involved. It just took too long to get to that point, and we're somewhere in all of this, we're dropping the ball. And so I want to say it's a systems issue. It's not the responsibility of the teacher to be the forefront, the per the first, the that person that's like, you're something's wrong. What is it? Tell me your entire life story. It is very much about we in education have to make sure that we are wrapping all of our students in that. And when we talk about tier one uh interventions, which are good for all students, that just means tier one interventions are interventions that are in place for all students, regardless of if they're receiving special education services, if they have disciplinary issues, it's for all students. And so in our tier one practices for my educators out there, we should already be doing community-building activities because when people feel included, they are more likely to come and tell you when there's an issue in their home life. A lot of our kids are being told we don't talk about family outside of family, right? We don't, we're not, we don't bring other people into this world of ours. And so they have to feel comfortable enough to say, we need some help. I am experiencing this, and I know that you're here to help me and not to harm me, also.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

And can you talk about when you say tier one, what does that look like? Like in the classroom, particularly, and then what would be the breakdown of that?

SPEAKER_00 30:26

So when I talk about community-building activities as part of your of your tier one activities, I'm talking about your teachers greeting their kids at the door. These are very easy things to do. Greeting the kids at the door, using their name. So research shows that actually one out of five kids is not being acknowledged throughout the school date at all. And so if you have a population of what, 200 people, somebody math that for me. Math is hard.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Algebra. Algebra, after algebra. So I don't know. Don't look at me.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah, you have you have these kids that are that nobody's acknowledging, speaking to, um, making eye contact with. And these are the kids that feel left out, unsupported, are more likely to engage in behavioral, um behavioral things.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Is is it but are these classrooms getting bigger? Could that be an issue?

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, that's a systems issue. Our classrooms are huge.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Our classrooms are like how many students are in a normal classroom? I mean, do you know? Like, I mean, like, is it like 50?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Um, I have seen classrooms that have consolidated because the teacher has left or they have been unable to fill the spot that are that big, and they might have a teacher and a parrot in there. Um, but I would say that classrooms, in my experience, classrooms have a probably approximately 35 kids in them right now. And that's a that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yeah, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

And at the as a matter of fact, the Texas education code says that at the disciplinary campus, you can't have more than 15 kids. So you mean yeah, that's an example.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Yeah, you would think that would be an example of like what would what you should have. I mean, I know there's funding and all that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

It it is. It it comes back to funding and and and how much how many teachers we have available and what classes they have to offer. It's it's an enormous thing. Sure. Um, but yes, our classrooms are huge, and our teachers do have to teach and deal with behaviors and do the grading and make the parent contacts. And so it's a lot. It's a lot. And we're just saying in the classroom, greet your kids at the door, use their name, mm, give them a connection activity where they have an opportunity to talk to each other as kids and not as rival gang members, as you know, you you stole my boyfriend.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

Right? You know what I mean? Or yeah, beast that happens online.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Or you're the person that's been harassing me online, exactly, or DMing me these inappropriate things on social media, giving them those opportunities for connection throughout the class period. Teachers are already doing brain breaks when they're transitioning from one activity to another. So just giving those kids the opportunity to have real human conversations, right, and then allowing forgiveness and space when a kid messes up because we're so quick to be like, get out of here, we're done. You know, instead of being like, Well, here's what I need to have you come back and feel better about this.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

And think about what that says. Like, right, what does that suggest to a student when you're kicking them out of the learning environment?

SPEAKER_00 33:22

I don't want you either. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

You know, is there is there something because I'm thinking from the educator's perspective, the the teacher, is there also some kind of check-in with them mentally too? Because it's it's that there's gotta be something there to help them get to the point to help others.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

I'm so glad I'm so glad you asked that. Yes. So in my own practice, what we did is we used restorative practices with the teachers too. And so we had consistent check-ins with them. We had an open door policy, we greeted them at the front. I was at the front every day. Hello, how are you? What's going on? Tell me what you need. How can I support you? What can I do to help you? And so having them be able to have some psychological safety in that space where they can come and say, like, hey, I'm really struggling with this today, or I can you please I need a break. I need 10 minutes, you know. Can you come into my classroom without fear of repercussions? Because I feel like we are also we're so demanding of our teachers right now that we forget that they are also human beings that are experiencing life.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Sure, they need restored as they need to be restored as well. Because I can see them walking out too. It's just like I need a break too. I need a yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

They they do, and sometimes, and sometimes they need a moment to reset. Sure. And so offering offering them those opportunities and giving them that space and the space for grace when they need it. I I think that that has that helped instrumentally in rebuilding community and culture on the campus that I was at. And and that trickles down to the kids.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah. Absolutely. So what would be uh I I I I sent this to y'all, but uh, so hopefully y'all y'all can answer it because this was an interesting question. Let me get my notes. They both now have their tablets out and papers.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Oh, he sent he sent us some questions. Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Well, I'm surprised y'all have not been looking. I'm gonna tell every our audience they have not we we've they have not been using their cheat sheets. Yeah, I didn't. What would be an uncomfortable question about this topic, B? Like what would like that somebody could ask?

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Me, I'm gonna take that first. Okay, and that is our restorative practice. I am looking at my totally reading up my notes. Now reading her. Yes, to the audience. That's the uncomfortable question. I don't want to mess this up because it's important.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

She has to read a statement. That's why we don't know. Not under court of law. There's no video. But not in Dr. Scott wanting video this whole time. And I'm like, we're too low budget here to have video.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

All responses by uh Dr. Scott and Dr. Moreno are not representative of Technic.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

I don't think it's what we're doing. I'm just Jessica. I'm just Jessica talking here. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

It's kind of interesting, quick.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

So the the uncomfortable question is going to be are restorative practices lowering standards? And that question reveals a deeper fear about authority and control. But equity does not mean lowering expectations. It means holding students accountable while affirming their dignity.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

We don't have a clap track, but I if I if I had one, that was very well read. No disclaimer need. No disclaimer needs. If you had a critic out there that was looking at this book, where would they poke holes in this?

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Schools are overwhelmed. Adding another framework, another program is unrealistic without funding and staffing. And you know, you're right. That critique absolutely matters. Sustainable restorative work requires systemic investment and not just passion.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Yeah. What what what conversation would this a reader what would what would you want this to spark in them? In their mind, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Your why. Why am I here? Why am I doing this? First, in a and more frame uh foundational framework of your why. Because on those days when it gets really tough and you feel faint, you're gonna have to resort back to your why in order to integrate restorative practices and not take the easy way out and say, get out of my classroom or I'm writing you up or or or doing some kind of punitive exclusionary uh sure action. So I would say uh uh you know addressing why am I why did I decide to get an education and then why these why this campus, why this community, why these students? And I think if you break it down to the you know from uh uh macro to micro, I think that really works.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

I think I think it's you know, I've been in on boards and and and stuff, and it's it's interesting to hear sometimes the why is is is so important because we lose the ability to go, why does this affect me? It's a kid, I don't have kids. Yeah, but why does this affect me?

SPEAKER_03 37:58

Well, let me let me let me push back a little bit, uh, because there's a lot of i I've noticed this too, and again, this is just just pure observation and it's anecdotal. Nothing about it. Hopefully not about me, but I finally got her to laugh.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Well, no, she almost spit her water.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

Right? Well then think about it though, a lot of teachers don't have kids. Yeah. If you notice that, a lot of teachers don't have kids because you're investing in other people's kids all day long. Sure. But two, really quickly, and I was thinking about this as we're, you know, as we've been conversing, think about what teachers are taking home. And I'm talking about teachers in high need areas, high poverty, high need areas, turnover schools, whatever. Think about what they're seeing. They're seeing their their students struggling. They're seeing students who uh may have had a sibling gunned down because he was part of a gang and or or a parent is missing, or you have a parent conference and no parent shows up, or you have uh an R, like no parent shows up, or you have a parent conference and the grandma shows up because mom's locked up and dad's dead. I mean, these are some of the you know the real stories. And so think of that particular teacher. We're human, we're all human. That teacher goes home and you're thinking about those students, like you're thinking about God, Jose. Yeah, like I wonder how Jose is. Like, I can't believe that you know, his grandma's having to raise all these kids and his mom's in jail and dad's dead. Like, you know what I mean? And you're so and a lot of times teachers, you know, I have a therapist, you know. I mean, God bless her, because my my issues got issues, you know what I mean? I God bless my therapist, jeez. I was like, man, but but um and God bless my wife too, right? Yeah, they too. Yeah, right. Hey, hey, watch out. But uh, don't let don't let Heather here but uh no no seriously. She won't listen. But but think about it though, think about it. Like, teachers don't go get the the the uh you know um social emotional help they need. They don't get you know the the the mental health nourishment that they need to interface with these students all the time in these communities and their own lives as well. And I've I've been a part of I've had a uh a teacher I I knew that committed suicide. I had a teacher that wanted to commit and tried to commit suicide on campus. Um and I, you know, and I had to work uh that that case and get her the help she needed through EAP, but um uh employee assistance program. So again, the book kind of delves into that, like it delves into okay, even as you know, uh educators, we have to take care of ourselves. We can't pour into anyone if we're empty.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Yeah. Well, I I guess I I guess my question would be broader too. Like for a person like me in general in the public, I think how does it affect me? Meaning, I think going back to your prison pipeline, I I think that's the the the way you worded it. It it it it's it's restoring people that could be going and down a bad path and therefore helping the whole community as a whole, therefore helping me who doesn't have kids. Right. I do teach, but the higher education, but but um so I think that that that helps me long term when the community's better. I mean, I know that's very broad.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

Well, it's it's it's dollars and cents, right? It's about how we allocate money, how do we invest into the next generation? And it's and it's it's preventative, right? Are we gonna are we going to put money, front load the money in the prevention, or are we gonna front load the money in the actual cancer treatment, right?

SPEAKER_04 41:22

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

You know, and so I think that this is more preventative, right? You're preventing by building a community around uh you know these students, um, and you're providing again long longitudinally and long term, um, and and then here's another thing too. You you know, you're providing a long-term safety net, but here's another thing too, and I tell my students, you're not gonna be just the principal of that school, you're gonna be the principal of the community. So when you when you you know, when you oversee a school, people are are, you know, parents are trusting you to take their child, right? Think of the the the magnitude of this, take their child and creating them. You you know, you spend more time, that child's gonna spend more time at the school, eight hours, nine hours, than they're gonna spend with their own parents at home. Sure. So they're they're they're imbuing in you the capacity to make sure that that child becomes a upstanding citizen.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Is this is this specifically I don't know how to ask this question properly, but this could be used nationwide, right? I mean, this is not just very specific to Texas or San Antonio, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

So so a lot of this information was born out of national, national restorative practices or or using restorative practices on the national level. Um, I've been given the opportunity to train teachers on systems integration and and districts and and and program implementation in almost every state in the United States. Hawaii can be.

SPEAKER_03 42:53

Let me go. We presented what last year at the end of the year. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

You told me about that. That's what this was about. Okay. I didn't know this is the research. I thought he was just going to Hawaii. He didn't say Hawaii. And then I saw these pictures of him partying in Hawaii. I don't think he was doing any research. Right. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

But but yes, this is how the these work with all kids. And I think that's the big, that's the big takeaway is that we wrote our research specifically on does this work with kids that are already experiencing exclusionary discipline consequences? They've already been removed from their home campus. Can restorative practices work with the kids that are most at risk? And when I say at risk, I mean dropping out, not graduating, that kind of stuff. So if it can work with the kids that are most at risk, it will work with your kids on your traditional campus, your general population.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Is is is there uh uh aspect of mental health that that that we look at here, like these students that are getting in trouble? Is is there something about that?

SPEAKER_00 43:51

I think that there's been an increase.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

A part of it is um it is it can be a mental health um situation. Because again, it's trauma. It's trauma-informed. It's trauma surrounded. Students are going through trauma. So if you have a student, I've had students who have gotten shot. You have a student that's gotten shot. They're going to address you or they're going to respond differently to certain situations. You have a student who is pregnant at 13. She has a kid at 13, 14. I've had that. I've worked at a middle school. We had eight pregnant girls in our middle school. Wow. Right? Yes. That's crazy. Yes, I know. They're going to see the world a little differently, and we're going to have to approach them and get them resources a little differently. So, yes, there is a trauma-based response to the restorative practices. And what happens is, you know, as you develop that restorative community around the child that surrounds the child, you'll they'll, you know, they'll be with the counselor, they'll be with the social worker, they'll be if it's a drug or alcohol addiction, they'll be with someone who can help them through that addiction. All surrounded, you know, the administrator will take a step back and say, hey, I'm not going to do anything punitive because I know that we're working with them restoratively. And I know Jose just needs a little bit more of you know time with the counselor instead of time at home suspension. So again, it's it's it's it's a it's a holistic development, it's a holistic approach of of addressing again, not just the behaviors. The behaviors are emblematic of something else going on. And what is that other thing going on? A lot of times it is trauma and it addresses that.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Yes, I completely agree. A lot of our districts are doing some really great things with wraparound services. So for example, South San ISD has the care zone, and the care zone is community members um and programs that are out there meant to assist families and students in in the things that they're going through. So they have um partnerships with like the the the the clothing, the clothing bank, the food bank. They have um partnerships with the Center for Healthcare Services or Children's Center for Health Care Services. They have partners that are specific to mental health and wellness, specific to addiction and addiction recovery. So we're doing a lot for our kids with wraparound services in in those in those spaces. Um but yes, there's absolutely, absolutely ties, ties to that. And absolutely. And it's not, and again, it's not just our not just our kids. It's our it's it's it's everybody, it's everybody. These services should be available to everybody, and we're just really bringing them to the forefront for kids that are in need.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

And one of the things I I do as a professor is I try to bring in all these different uh elements or stakeholders to talk about these things. And then we do this uh thing called best of both worlds, right? Best of both worlds mean one part of the world is the theory, and then the other part is really the practice. What does that mean on the ground? And so our next best of both worlds actually is going to address a holistic approach on how we help all students, as Dr. Moreno was saying, right? We have like Commissioner Calvert, because you know the commissioner courts, you know, they donate millions to make sure that mental health, you know, disrupting the pipeline of prison, mental health restorative is done. We have, you know, Representative Elizabeth Kompos and uh Jessica Nudston, who you know personally, uh and uh she's a you know president of Clarity Child Guidance. Um and Audrea Vocabis, she's gonna be there. And and and here's another so we have some principals, Dr. Uh Derek Brown, uh Young Men's Leadership. And one of the things I love about them is they have like karate classes and yoga and they have other what we call non-cognitive factors, right? Sure. Things that are not just academic. Uh, you have uh Priscilla Faro, Young Women's Leadership, and they have a class where uh teachers are teaching them how to knit and do different things to where now the students are seeing their teachers as, you know, not just that teacher teaching algebra, here goes algebra, but it's teaching them something again that's outside of the context of the regular academics and building relationships.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

So we'll we'll get to the the the final uh you know, where we can find this book and and other things in just a second, but I wanted to ask one last question. How does this book change in five years? What where do you see this book if you if you have to rewrite some of it? What where do you think uh this wasn't on she's looking for this on her cheat sheet? No, no, we I know I know you I know you didn't do this one.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

I know you didn't send this to us. I know you didn't send this isn't authentic, this is an authentic question.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

I didn't even get the last one. I didn't even get the questions, so I did that on purpose. Free flowing that, yeah. I was like, where are these questions you speaketh of? I send it to the the right person.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

I don't think I don't think that we have to change the book because in five years. In five years, because the the real premise of the book is we have to remember that we are humans and humans have a natural urge to belong to something, to belong to the community. And so when we talk about restorative practices and community building activities, we are really just saying we have to train ourselves to be more inclusive, we have to train ourselves to not always remove students from the situation, um, even though that might sometimes seem easier in the immediate um we have to remember that we're they're children. Yeah, they're children and they're still learning and they're still their brains are still developing. And so just creating that sense of belonging for them and showing them how to do it for others, I don't think that changes.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

Yeah. And I like the fact that you know we we call this show halfway human. So I like the fact that y'all keep referring to human. It helps me because we're all humans at the end of the day. So I think um, yeah, I I uh anything, how do we, I guess, um find this book? How do we, is there ways that anything else that y'all are gonna be doing to uh you just said kind of w areas that you may be promoting this, but uh just kind of kind of give your plugs, I guess, at this point.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

Yeah, sure. So we'll be uh well we'll we'll have a book launch at uh Texanium San Antonio coming soon. It's gonna be possibly April, May, sometime in April May. Uh and then you you know, Cambridge Scholars. Cambridge Scholars is out of uh England and uh that those are our publishers, so you can find us on Cambridge Scholars.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

Um also all our handles uh you know are are social. Do I get a book?

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Do I get it? Well, I don't get the picture. She just handed me the book and now she's taking it away from that. Yeah, what kind of promotion is this? You can have it as soon as we get our does this have pictures in it? Like, I mean, that'll work. We'll we'll take a picture of one. Yeah, there we go. Sorry, we we interrupted you.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

No, no, no, no. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

No, no, no, no, no. But yeah, Cambridge Scholars and Cambridge Scholars. Cambridge, yeah. So we're gonna we're gonna have a book launch.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

And they can just search the name of the book on here. You can search the name of the book. What is the name of it again?

SPEAKER_03 50:54

Just so advocated for educational change, all right? Reimagining restoring change. Sorry. Student discipline, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

You didn't know the name of the book, okay? It's a long, it's a long time. It's a long time.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

It's advocating for educational change, reimagining student discipline through restorative practices by Jessica Moreno and Lauren Scott.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

And you can you can you can read quite a bit of it on the link, because you sent me the link. And so there's quite a bit that you can already, which is I think nice that you can get interested in it.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

You can get a gist, and what we're hoping is uh that you know, when you pick up the book, you can share it. We you know, we we it's it's gonna be a great uh Christmas stock and stuffer. Yeah, it's yeah, it's uh you know, buy one, give one, right? So buy one for me, give one to me.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

I mean, it's very how did y'all get this? How did you get this printed? That's very nice.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

Yeah, no, I mean, again, we shout out to Cambridge scholars. You have to, so people don't understand. Uh you don't just write a book, but I cannot imagine you know, you have to submit a proposal. Yeah, and we were blessed again, uh, and giving you context, uh, Dr. Moreno's research was phenomenal. And so what I wanted to do is is I said, let's put our let's put our research and practice together, because I had research as well. You know, so let's put our research and practice together. And and I was just blown away. I was on her dissertation committee. Yeah. So I was blown away by just you know, the amount of of research and practice. Like it's practical. Like the stuff that she's talking about is super practical, and and you can apply it anywhere. James, think about this. You can apply it even with your employees in the business sector. It's not just sure, you know, you can apply the military, you can apply it in the criminal justice system, you can apply it at schools. Sure. Anytime there's a dynamic where there's, you know, uh uh, you know, a uh a leader and followers or a superior subordinate, whatever case. You can apply this. And I think if we have that communal approach to a lot of uh these issues and give people at the essence a second chance. Yeah. At the essence, making room to make a mistake and say, that's okay. We all need it. We're gonna move forward together. And then at the essence, we're all human. I understand, I empathize, and let's move forward together.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

And I will say the most important part about this is I get a shout out of it. Yeah, I mean, you know, just look for that. That's the only reason to get the book. James Chandler.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

I didn't want to tell you that was another James Chandler. Oh, you mean that was you? Oh, that wasn't you, man. That was my cousin, man. I got a cousin named James Chandler.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

I was all excited there for a minute too.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

The picture of me, and it looks like me. It looks like you, yeah. But you didn't know about the picture of me and I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

You know what? I'm all for surprises.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

It's a pop-up, you know, right? Well, I I really do appreciate both of y'all coming out here and and spending a little time with me today. I know y'all are both very, very busy. Um, and and again, uh, you know, go out and get the book and and uh hopefully uh this changes, you know, some some people's I mean, it it'll it'll change, even if it changes one person, as they say.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

If you can make a difference for one student in one classroom one day, we you're yeah, we're doing what we're set out to do.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Awesome. Well, thank you guys. I really appreciate it. Appreciate you. Thank you.