Karlach: The Making of a Modern Mythic Hero (with Samantha Béart)

In this episode, I’m joined by Samantha Béart for a lively conversation on performance, storytelling, and the myth of Karlach. This one is particularly special to me, as Sam was one of my very first interviews and has been incredibly supportive along the way.

We talk about how characters like Karlach become mythic in their own right, and why some game characters feel so powerful to play. 

From Athena to Shakespeare to the ‘patron saints’ of sci-fi—Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor—we explore how these figures continue to shape how we understand myth today.

Music: Intro and outro — Spirits of the Woods by Rotem Moav. 

www.mythsgamesmeaning.com

Transcript

Welcome back message

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to Myths, Games and Meaning. Just wanted to say that um it has been a while and this episode has taken me far longer than I anticipated or wanted it to take in the edit. I'm not sure why that was, um, but it perhaps is because I was so afraid uh because my guest was amazing and wonderful. We had such a fantastic time doing this that I didn't want to mess it up. But welcome back. I hope you enjoy it, and I hope it brings you as much fun as it brought me, and I hope it brought Sam. Um although much of what is here is relevant still, Sam has moved on and done some pretty cool stuff since the release of uh since the recording of this episode. Um so hopefully I'll get an opportunity to speak to them at a later stage. Enjoy it as much as I enjoyed recording. Hello everyone, I'm Dr. Chalet, and this is Myths Games Meeting, and I am joined by a very, very special guest, Sam Baird. How are you, Sam?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Hello, uh it is Sunday morning-ish, and here we are, and this feels like a real treat. No, don't often to have these sort of chats. So, yeah, very much looking forward to this. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

And I'm very grateful for Sam keeping me on task as well. She's like, it's time to record now.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

I like how you've just no context. It's more that we've been talking for 10 minutes straight and having it record and and not touch the topics of this podcast. So just need to put that disclaimer in. Yes, thank you. The rumours about me being a bully aren't gonna go away, are they?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

So yeah, because I'm sure people would really believe that.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Well, they wouldn't tell me to my face, would they?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

So not after Karlack, definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Absolutely not. That's a great thing about one great thing about a little parasocialism, is obviously I can get away with vigilante justice now and just call it method.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

That's it. Yeah. Do you know who I am? I hope you carry a mask with a mask table.

unknown 2:04

Yeah.

A personal truth

SPEAKER_02 2:07

I hope you carry a mask around with you in your bag. Do you know who I am? Not yet. Not yet, but that's a really good idea. Yeah, you gotta do that. Now, I wanted to ask you before I th I I'm gonna throw this out. This is why I don't want to hit record quite yet, but I'm gonna ask you this. Now, I have uh done my research and I've watched a lot of uh interviews with you. I can only apologize. No, they're great, they were good. Thank you. They were good, they were very, very good. Um, but I wanted you to maybe talk to give the listeners something about yourself, Karlac, that you don't know, that they don't know, that you've never spoken about.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Interesting. Ooh. Because we've talked a lot about Carlac in the last two years. And interview I did with Tom Kenrick was about the physicality of Carlac, which I hadn't really spoken about before, so that's annoying, because that's not new now. Um you see, like when you go to a classical drama training, and because of the way we are in the West, and and because the way I am with a Catholic upbringing, where the only acceptable emotion is anger.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Oh no, no, no. Guilt.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Right, yeah, yeah, guilt is what didn't hit me so hard. I'm guilty for different reasons. It's not a religious guilt, but it's um yeah. Um, but um when that is the only thing available to you, and that's how you respond to another thing, you lash out, that's kind of kicked out of you at drama school in the most loving way, right? They give you some other options, and then here I am, the character I'll probably be best known for, who is pure anger, who can just flip in and out of it very quickly. Yes, let's say that's quite close to a younger me. There you go, that's something I've not said before.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

There you go, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

We've worked on ourselves since then. There are other emotions, it's all good, but yeah, it's very easy. I came from a family that would just split, you know, and that's the immigrant thing, right? Irish Jamaican thing. Pretty much everything but the English will have, you know, shouty families. It doesn't mean necessarily that we hate each other, it's how we show love by yelling at each other. So it's it's like just this anger will come out and then it's back in the box, it doesn't mean anything. So unfortunately, if you're not of that background, you might you you might need some context for that.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

So there you go, that's that's a fun fact. Quick to anger, or at least I used to be. Um, so yeah, it wasn't a push to I guess to do that in within the game. And also, of course, we record out of sequence for something like that. So I really was jumping in and out of all these different states all the time.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

That must have been very hard, but I get the background thing because my family is Italian.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Oh, we know exactly what I'm talking about. Italian and Greek, yeah. Mediterranean cultures, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Mediterranean culture, yeah. And it is all we do is yell. Yeah. And and in the most loving way, most of the time. But I think it's our voices as well. There's not I I think people forget that when you're when you're in uh families like ours, you're your normal way of speaking is just loud.

unknown 5:04

Yeah. It's true.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

But thank you for that. All right. So there you go. So that was that wasn't too hard. Like the rest of it was like, make sure you know the arc of this character. That that's a difficult bit, especially when you're out of order and everything. And and also, you know, there's a version of her that is platonic. There's a version of her that doesn't like you very much. You know, there's all these different Karlax, and and and that's what's interesting about you know coming on here and talking about myth, because I think that will tie up with with some of the bits of research that I've done, so it's not a waste of everyone's time to listen to this. Might be quite interesting. I don't know. I feel that's your responsibility.

Building Karlach through mocap

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Well, this is it. I'm looking forward to it, and you know, and having a classical actor on as well, because I I do want to, and and we'll touch on it later, but I really want to talk about you embodying the character of that what 260 hours of mocap you did for that character, and and as a classical actor, how you actually we might as well you might as well answer now, I guess. So you're playing a character uh who's so mythic and so fantastically huge and epic. How did you embody in your acting, how did you embody all that energy? Yeah, so remember when we recorded her, she wasn't a myth, she wasn't epic, she was just a character.

Accents, and Character Voice

SPEAKER_00 6:18

No, so she was brand new, but you know, when you do this, is why I advocate so much for transparency in the games industry. When you know what genre you're in, you know, for me this was operatic, it was huge, and also because you haven't got the face, you haven't got the the that's animated, the rest of us was mocapped, including our hands, strangely enough. Um that's weird. You can yeah, you can back off the voice quite a bit because you have the physicality, but you haven't got the face to expression, so it's kind of mask, it all sort of comes out in the body. So it was a combination of me studying text and seeing, you know, she's got uh an infernal engine for a heart. That might might make her a little bit stiff in the upper shoulders and everything, right? So we made a and also we had uh in theatre we call them movement directors in the credits of Bordersgate 3, they're called performance directors, so quite a few of them. Um, and you know, they kept tabs on us, and and they were from a theatrical background. In fact, a lot of them would have trained with Lecoq in France, which is a sort of standard path, and then they come to the drama schools. So we speak the same language, and um one I particularly remember Gabriel H. Jonena, who's from Brazil, who had trained there as well. He would we would use Laban efforts. If you're a dancer or you work in movement, you know what that means, but it's kind of a physical shorthand for the quality of movement. So um you'll see with me that I'm quite flappy, flap around quite a bit. You might have seen this in interviews, but Karlak, it looks weird, it looks weird on such a big model, and it's freaky. So we they he would just say he would just say pressing, which is a sustained and heavy movement, and and uh these the training, of course, the years of doing this sort of stuff every day, do an hour of this sort of physical theory every day for three years. Um, that that word already triggers exactly what he wants. So we don't have to sit there, work it out, there's no method involved. Um, it is just as simple as that. And and and a lot of the movement directors was just to keep it honest, just make sure it fits within those parameters. Because traditionally voice work, of course, you can make whatever shapes you need to get that noise out of your face. And and with something like this, we had to embody these characters, and so and it's fine because you could you could it's it's play, isn't it? It's theatre, it's um you could you could play, you know. We've got someone like Neil Newborn, who's very tall, is playing a much shorter character. It doesn't really require acting, it's it's just a physical state that you you hold. And because of the the uh advances in mocap technology, they can they can stretch or shrink our skeletons because that's essentially what they're getting with the breath on top of it as well. Um yeah, so in terms of the way I approach, I will go for uh text first, obviously. Um with her, because it was going to be such a different physical shape for me to hold, then I thought of physicality, and then the voice was a result of that. And we know we've got you know South of England accents and she needs to be working class, so that narrowed it right down. So really the voice was was really not something I was that bothered about um in terms of agonizing over a correct voice because a lot of the decision was made for me. Um but the physicality had to be had to be true.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, I I'm really glad that you mentioned the um uh and this is my ADHD because I picked up on the the fact that you mentioned the the South Um the South England English accent for all those weird memes going around that think that everyone in in England speaks the same English Oh the br the British accent, the one British that one, Harry Potter.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

It's like no, yeah, no, no, no. It's either Posh or Cockney, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And and now, like bless them, you know, Game of Thrones has brought us Northerners. Yeah. I'm specific Northerners, but that's a start. I'm looking forward to seeing Brummies in well, we've seen a bit of Brummies, but actual Brummy actors playing Brummies and Geordies and Cumbrians and more Scots and Welsh. Remember the Welsh Northern Irish, yeah. Chuck them all in there.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

I know, right? And and to be honest, I I remember being American. Um, this was years ago when Oasis was first really popular, because I didn't come to England until 98. Your accent does not sound American. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

But yeah, hearing a Mancunian accent, what was that like? Do you know they had to subtitle it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

In America.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

No one understood it. Yeah, because all I can think of is Daphne and Fraser. That's it. That's the representation of modern Manchester. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

And I think her accent was really watered down as well, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, depending on, you know, class and uh location, all of that, because it's very specific in and in England you you go five miles up the road and it's a different accent.

Athena and the Patron Saints of sci-fi

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Well, this is it. And I and thank you very much. I'm honored for an actor to tell me that my voice doesn't sound American. I've been trying to get it smoother, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So shall we move on to some more myth making? Let's do it. I'll give it a go. Let's do it. So, um, are there any myths or mythological figures that have stayed with you over time? Something you connected with when you were younger or that resonates more now?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah, so for old classic myths, Athena. Athena born from her father's head, military tactician. There doesn't seem to be any drama. She's not going around punishing women for being better looking or being petty, like she just gets on with it. She's best mates with Odysseus, one of the great heroes of mythology. I I loved her and and through her realised that these sort of martial female martial roles were possible. So yeah, she was my she was my big mythological hero. Like really in the back of my head, but I knew it was possible. I love it. Especially going to a oh thank you. Uh especially like, well, is it drama school? They only have room for, at least back then, for ingenues and English roses, and I'm I'm neither of those, and so they'd sort of like, bye then, that's sort of it. So the fact she existed, uh, the fact that's possible, and then I guess patron saints, Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley, one on each shoulder. Because again, these martial women, these very strong women, traumatized in their case, but very strong leaders, people who see the future and and are going to put things right if they can. Um, great, great to have that again in the back pocket. And I watched I watched horror films way too young. I was way too young. I saw Hellraiser when I was eight. That's the key to the character. Yeah, I'm fine. My brother's a lot older, uh, and it was my brother, it wasn't my parents, it was my brother, and I just loved the special effects. I thought they were great. That's what I got. I wasn't really gonna understand like the SM undertones, the the the the Clive Barker's Awakening or whatever that is. Um I didn't really care, but I thought it was cool. I just thought it was really cool, and I was watching, you know, poltergeist was another one, Chucky movies, all of that, and a lot of the the the sort of the horror of it went over my head because I couldn't quite suspend my disbelief. I just enjoyed the special the practical effects, so so that was cool. And then yeah, Terminator 2 coming out again, being very young when I saw that, but I thought my god, and I just thought there were women like Sarah Connor that when I grew up that I would see that around and when I became an actor, I thought I'd be doing that, but like they're like, No, you play victims or young girls who get married and we never hear from again, and that's gonna be it. And I'm going, but Sarah Connor, don't you understand? Ellen Ripley. Yeah, and so what's great, been great going straight back to the present is that in video games I've tended to play, well, I think if you're playing a lead female character in a video game, you're and it's a place of action, you're already going against the stereotype of or femininity. And as a non-binary person, it's a very safe space to me for me to be in, because in the West we've not had that term very long. You're just an unconventional woman, and I've played a lot of unconventional women in my time, so it's been a very satisfying space to to just um yeah, just to be myself, explore it, just be validated, I suppose, is is is is the right term. To be seen.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

It's interesting that you say that because I was talking to a colleague of mine yesterday uh when I was doing this podcast, and we were talking about um female leads in video games, yeah. And actually, it really stuck with me the one of the interviews you had re uh I guess it might have been a year or so ago, when you said that Fem Shep was like your massive hero. And to be honest, uh she was mine as well.

Games culture and moral panic

SPEAKER_00 14:09

And she got me into video games because I hadn't seen and I haven't played it as a as a female lead yet, and I'm not counting Metroid either, because that's more of a reveal. But um, but uh yeah, yeah, I was just going, oh, I've been playing Tough Chicks in Space for audio, you know, but for big big finish, Doctor Who, that torture, that sort of thing. Oh, I could do that in a video game, maybe. So that's what sort of put me on the path to to switching into video games specifically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

But yeah, and to be honest, video games are a way for us to actually um uh for a lot of people who wouldn't have access otherwise to mythology, otherwise to storytelling, to to be able to get get into those areas of education, of fantasy, and it does give them an in that maybe going to the cinema or maybe going to the theatre, which they wouldn't be able to do. And come on, so much money goes into these games as well. Probably more sometimes than goes into films these days.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Oh, it it does, yeah. Yeah, yeah, way more, and it makes more the film, TV, and music put together. Um saying that that the mainstream press don't cover us unless I mean we you know what's coming, GTA 6 is gonna come out, and these old stories about little boys in basements getting radicalized. No one else plays games, and there are no other games apart from GTA Call of Duty and I guess Fortnite. That seems to be like all the press is really interested in. So I I hope we avoid that, but I think it's it's gonna be the old um, I guess, equivalent of the satanic panic for video games again in spring next year.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

At least we no longer have that for DD.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

You say that I'm sure there's pockets of um Middle America burning their Harry Potter books and not for the same reasons we burn ours, but uh different, we're not the same. Um, but yeah, but that the that it'll corrupt because there's magic involved. Yeah. It's true. And the gays like it, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Well, this is it. I think that uh and you know that whole um that whole gamergate thing years ago was also a very uh toxic uh masculine view of things and made the whole, you know, it made people who were starting to move towards video games um kind of push away and then once again say it's this it's radicalizing young men and it's doing this and and doing that. Well, and I think women have been, I mean, we know statistically that uh even back then that there were like 47% of game uh people who are playing games are women.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

A women, yeah. Yeah, it's wild, isn't it? And and there's been a push, I don't know if you've been wanting even wanting to engage in this, but the last year there's been a sort of second attempt at Gamergate with uh a newly monetised social media platform, you know, now that everyone can get oh no no no no. So you do a thing and it doesn't center a cishet white man, there'll be some videos on YouTube about it and a campaign to to bring you down because how dare you ruin their hobby. Yeah, no, I'm glad you missed it. Don't look into it, it's pretty grim. But it's exactly the same playbook, except this time it appears these people don't actually play games because coming for the so coming for Dragon Age as oh it's gone woke. Dude, that was written by a gay man 20 years ago, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:14

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

That is But you didn't you you didn't play it, so you don't know, and there's a there's a lot of that. And I'll catch stuff with this, just saying this, and I don't care.

When Karlach Becomes A Legend

SPEAKER_02 17:22

No, it's it's fair because this is fine. And this is the problem as well. I think we need to st we need to be able to have discussions without people. Uh we are allowed to speak as long as we're not hurting anybody, as long as we're not uh causing any violence, uh, to be able to express our opinions and also be able to argue our cases. And unfortunately, I think too many people shut too many other people down for doing this. If uh so this is this I want this to be a safe place where we can actually talk about things, you know. Because also when it comes to myth, myth is, as we know, uh it does tend to um reflect the times, doesn't it, Jess? And it reflects the politics of the times. It always has, yeah, and it always will. And we're going to be seeing we're going to seeing uh stories altered because of this, and we already have. So this is this is a place to discuss these things. Um now uh going back to what you said about Carlac, when you said you play Carlac, and we were talking about um your your mo cap and your your physical acting during that role that you didn't know that she was gonna become mythic. Now she has. So um what's it like now that she's basically she's become this kind of legend, you know, everyone loves her. She's I mean, she was my favourite character, I have to say, in the game. She was so lovable and and I did romance her, but she was like my buddy, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yeah, and that was a big surprise to me that that the platonic line works. And yeah, there's ace people that have a romance, but not a physical romance with it, and there's room for that in the writing. The Sarah Bayliss was the dialogue writer, and she's just she's just genius, really. She covered so much with that character. Karlax always wanted to be a hero, that's in her dialogue, you know. That's because her time is going to be quite short, she wants to make sure her life has an impact and a positive one. Now she's had a sort of second chance, and um, you know, there's all the stuff meeting Minsk and Jaheira and fangirling over them both, and and now D D have brought out a book about the heroes of the Forgotten Realms, and she's on the cover. She'd love that, she loved that. So she's she's really quite pleased about that, actually. Yeah, and um I'm pretty pleased, yes, yes, because what we haven't had, so you know, I've meant, I mean, Thina's a goddess, right? We mentioned Con and Ripley, they're very human women. This is a seven-foot tiefling that's on fire. Um, that has a much more tragic line if you follow you know what you're being given, but there's no there's no real cure for her in the game. There is hope, maybe, you know, but really it's about for me, it's slavery and freedom. You know, she says, I know I can go back to the hells and I'll be fine, but I don't want to be enslaved. I'd rather die than be enslaved. And that's that's that choice that she decides to make all the way through. I don't really want to go to spoils. That can be changed later on. You can get if you get to know her and she trusts you that that view can be changed a bit later on. But generally, she's like, Look, I'm gonna spend the last days of my life being a hero. Plus, there's a whole tadpole in the head thing, anyway, right? Everyone thinks they're gonna die, so she's gonna try and bang everything at the same time. She's fair, I think. She never quite gets to go to the tavern, gutted about that. But in those live DDs, they always start in the tavern, so Carlaps like drinking everything. It's been 10 years. It's been 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Do you mean the barbarian?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

I'm the I know, it's really out of character, I know. But um, yeah, there it's it's it's um the one thing we'll all say, and everyone involved with this game will say is we didn't know that it would be so big. We knew it'd be amazing. There's no difference in that because sometimes you're in a game and you don't realise where you fit it in or how cool the game is until you've played it. We knew very much how awesome and and and different and all-encompassing, you know, with the different choices and consequences of this game. Uh, but we didn't realise you'd all play it and that you play it for so long, and that you guys would just go all in on it, and we loved it because we went all in on it, you know, and so we're being met with that. We're being met with that, and it's just a really nice communication and and and mythology-wise, and this might cover other questions you have. What's interesting about Carlac, and it's built into the interactive nature of this game and the fact that we played sort of every version of every conversation, yeah, is that everyone has a different game, completely different game, everyone has a different Carlag. Yeah, and that's really, really as like a saint, like a patron saint 500 years ago versus 100 years ago versus 2,000 years ago. She is different to different people. And I remember saying as it came out, because to me she was stoic, right? She's like, Really? I'm gonna I'm gonna live a good life in the in the truest sense, not in that mansphere way, which is don't show emotion. It's I'm gonna live a good life and I'm gonna live it on my terms. I have my own morality, that's the standards I live up to. I'm gonna try and be a good person, but I'm also Not gonna screw myself over, it's so protective, and you and with her, it's fighting for justice. That's what she's decided she's going to do with the she was she wouldn't have been able to do that in the hells, she's very much you know under the control of of evil uh folks. So it's this second chance and making that impact, and that makes her a carpet diem, isn't it? It sees the day, and it's and it's and it's mementum or remember you must die. And I think that's the universality of Karlac, is it goes, Oh, yeah, you know that this isn't forever. Do you want to be remembered well? Do you want to live a good life? See, people find it as a bit depressing that you can't, you know, 100% cure her, right? You can't cure this person, but unfortunately, we've all life is a terminal thing, it will end, and so it kind of forces you, maybe it forces you for the first time ever, without a family member having to die, to go, oh hang on, I haven't got forever, I've got to make the most of this because the time goes very quickly. So I think that's the genius of this character. And I said also when it came out and seeing you know people connected romantically, platonically, all of that. I remember saying to Sarah Baylor, so you were you aware when you were writing this, you've created a god of war and a god of love in the same character, which I've never seen done, and not in the classic Pantheon, not in modern myths, you know, your Sarah Connors and and Ripley's uh they're avenging angels, you know, that there's they're not goddesses of love as well. There isn't there isn't time to explore all that within that. Well, we had so much time with these characters, there's so much material we could explore those different sides to them. So it's really cool.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

No, it's amazing, and I have to say, she is like I was saying to you before, she's probably my favorite, one of my favourite, well, my favourite, because uh she encompasses everything, like you said, she encompasses war, she encompasses friendship, she encompasses love, she's oddly, and this is my opinion.

Fan art, songs and living myth

SPEAKER_00 23:45

I feel that she's probably the most human of all the characters in that game, even though she's you're not the first to say that, and I think that maybe was the point, and it's something I was saying to Todd Kenrick of going, okay, you're seven foot tall, you look like a devil. Yeah, maybe the first instinct is to put people at their ease. So that's where the jokes come from. When she's hiding trauma as well, but that's where the jokes come from. And and I I just thought, yeah, I'd be terrified of breaking things all the time. And setting them on fire in her case, you know, to be so careful. And yeah, maybe that there's an attempt to diffuse that. So that does make her very human and very empathetic.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

This is where we're going to do show and tell because we're talking about different aspects of Carlax. So because this is an audio podcast, I should describe the images. So this one, oh, that's she sort of has a modern saint here. She has a halo, and she's sort of three-quarters on, and you can see the heart. It's a very um impressionistic painted style, I'd say. It's by um sorry drawers, so the light's not helping. But um, she's done all the main origin characters like this with halos. So that's interesting. That's an interesting thing. That's not in the game, that's an interpretation. Then we have pin-up Karlac. So cute, having a little flex. She's sitting in that sort of 50s pin-up style, um, in a uh what a body suit and flexing away and looking cute, saying, Hey soldier. So that's the the love goddess. And then we've got this sort of gleeful, violent creature here swinging, uh swinging her weapon there and looking quite gleeful about it, as if like she's in her element, which she is, as the barbarian. So that's the god of war. And and and we we we autograph these at the table. I've and it's very interesting that I've picked these particular images, they're very strong mythological archetypes, and it's very interesting that I've picked that, I think. But I like I like symbolism, I'm very interested in that, and um, but the fans have done that, you know, they've they have done that, and they wrote music for us. That was a big touch point where of you know, the bards are dedicating songs, and one of them is about you know, a woman who's calling you soldier and he swears at you and can drink you under the table, but you're in love with her, you know, told from a I guess a cis man's perspective, you know. And then you've got um uh Colin McGuinness wrote one about the inner inner loneliness of her in hell and and and her life to that point, and that yeah, they're all different. I made a playlist on YouTube, all the songs I think that have been made about Carlac, because again, this mythology, this telling the world what this hero is like. Yeah, that was almost immediate that came as the game came out. People just absolutely went on, and they've done it for every character, so of course I'm gonna get engaged with more about my character, of course, but everyone got all this treatment, you know. And it's just it's been so interesting and enriching, and as I said, it's this two-way conversation, uh, which all real storytelling is, you know, it's all about what it means to be human. What do we do in in a very safe space talking about what would you do under these circumstances?

SPEAKER_02 26:32

No, it's good, and and uh you know, this does draw me to that question about fans, and you've you've kind of touched on it, but what else has the fan community uh done in terms of um keeping that myth alive? Now you've mentioned obviously you've got your you've got your bards, you've got your music. What else have they been doing? And especially at cons, I guess you'll see this a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Of course, so they'll do the cosplays, and I've never asked someone to do a cosplay because you've got to paint yourself red, you've got to decide whether you're having paint or um a glowing heart, you're gonna physically make that or you're gonna paint that on, and then you've got to make a decision about the hands. Will the hands be red? I I recommend gloves. I think they learn we we uh the evolution of the cosplay Karlac has been fascinating from my point of view at behind a table because I just felt sorry for the Airbnbs that would have been covered in in what looks like bloody handprints, um, and then they quite quickly move on to gloves. I love a contemporary Karlac, yeah. I like her dressed up as a you know metler or a jock sometimes, you know, it really suits that personality. Uh, she'd definitely be on the basketball team. Are you really missing a trick if she's not on or on the shot put team? Wrestling, yeah, all of those. So there's there's all that. Um they dress they started dressing up their cats as carlac again. That was another touchstone of going, this is pretty big, isn't it? The idea of being, you know, dressing up cats. I I've only met therapy cats, those are a thing in America, and they let me pet them, and it feels good. So I appreciate that. And and and dressing up kids as Albear cubs, uh, obviously. Um it's so it's so inventive and wonderful, and the day mailings I've seen with with wings that will pop out looking all badass. There's some really cool, there's some really cool inventive stuff. People are very smart, and and I've met therapists that use uh D D in role play, which totally makes sense. That's becoming more I've met two personally, there's gonna be way more out there. Um, and then stories of uh people who've gone through hard times who are feeling better now, but uh which is you know every medium, you could do some wild comedy anime, and someone will say, You saved me from this, right? It doesn't have to be serious or all that profound, but as I've said in a few a few times, we had people come out of bad relationships. Well, I was 10 years in hell, I've come out, I'm starting again, you know, I've lost all my friends, but I've played this game and I see you can get through this, you can absolutely get through it. We have people with particularly veterans with PTSD, and that is Karlac. I mean, that's what she really is, and that's very much in the forefront of my mind. And how do you hide that? How how do you not be a liability? You know, a lot of it at the beginning, she is not telling anyone what's wrong with her because she needs them to survive. And um uh folks with terminal and chronic illnesses uh found comfort in her, which is it just blows my mind. It's not something that occurred to me. I just knew I had a very well-written character who's who's who's just uh the fidelity of the character made sense, even though we're going in all these direct different directions, including you can play her evil if you play as her. Uh I've always decided I decided that uh she doesn't have the good influence of Tav. You know, she's fresh at hell, everyone treats her badly because she's a T Fling and she's like, screw you guys, I'm I'm gonna burn this whole thing down. It's great. No one ever plays no one ever plays that storyline. You can very much save it to the end, just turn right at the end if you want to. You can watch me eating, you can watch me chewing the scenery on YouTube. It's called Carlax Evil Ending. Do check it out, it's really fun.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I will definitely. I'm gonna put some of these links in as well. Some of these links we're talking about, actually.

Why fandom sometimes wants one truth

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Yeah, so you know, she said this. I think it's it's the aspect, it's the um interpretation, because I think fandom, because we talk about myth, and I'm glad we talk about myth specifically, because normally we talk about fandom, and I think there's something that's happened. I think maybe it's a social media thing, but for some reason, contemporary fandom demands consensus. There's a lot of you're wrong. It only means this and you're wrong, which goes against mythology and the idea we can all participate in this, and and and the idea of a particularly a Baldur's Gate where everyone has a completely different experience, the idea that there's one right way to play it. So people ask me about endings, what's what's the best ending for her in your opinion? And I don't have one, they're all the best ending, that's what the writer wrote, and I stick by it, and and it works, it it's whatever's justified for your playthrough, and that's the beauty of it. And it's the closest you're gonna get to live tabletop roleplay at the moment. But I look forward to advances because I think that the bar's been raised quite a bit, and maybe in a few years someone will have a go again at at you know, maybe not in a fantasy setting, but in another game, you know, to give you those options.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Yeah, I mean, as um and it it's it's good that you point on the myth thing, and you know, people just uh just uh having opinions of right and wrong. I think the thing with stories and mythology is as you rightfully put, is you can write it any way you want, you can play it any way you want. There is no right or wrong. We have been interpreting and reinterpreting myths and reimagining myths to the extent where now we still have them in the form of, you know, we still have them in the form of DD, we still have them in the form of films and videos and um superheroes now, or your kind of modern mythological gods, you know. So I think people are kind of missing the point. Story is all about what fits for you and what your interpretation is and what makes you feel good about who you are.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

I do wonder if it's it's the the shadow of of uh monotheism, because uh that mythology becomes the law, so there is only one way to interpret, and I wonder if it is something like that's just our uh heritage, our culture. Uh that's that we must all agree there is a rule, and we all have to agree on what this means. Um, and mythology kicks against that, and um you know, if you watch how the Romans were able to assimilate, would be oh well Minerva is kind of like this god you've got, so we'll just you know, and you don't have to you know start killing people for not believing because there's multiple gods, so you sort of go, ah, you worship, you know, um um Mithra, okay, great, we've got blah blah blah, you know, there's all that, there's an equivalent, but with Christianity, we go, no, you're wrong. There's one, and if you don't, you're dead. And that's that that feels like a modern fandom to me.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

No, you're right. No, that's a and actually, we we need to have another discussion about religion, I think, you and I, at some point.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Um, yeah, maybe off camera.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Maybe off camera, yeah. I don't think that can be.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Pulled out of context and cancelled. Maybe that's not the right way to go about it.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Well, this is it, you don't you don't want to do that to yourself, but as as uh someone who's got their PhD in theology, I'd really like to pick your brain off camera if we can at some point about your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

I mean, if I wanted easy points during my English degree, as someone who's brought up Catholic and ADHD now, knowing now, not then, um, I can quote you bits. So the the piece I wrote on uh Waiting for Goddo, where I looked up every reference and gave it to them, and there was another one on the handmaid's tale where I was going, oh, it's this obscure bit of the old testament, is what they've gone off. And yeah, so I find that quite interesting. So we could, yeah, we should.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. But we will do that off camera, we'll do that off camera, I promise. Because yeah, I've I've got my own opinion.

Superheroes, nostalgia and dystopia

SPEAKER_00 33:34

But interesting, you've mentioned like especially superheroes and mole, it feels I I'm with Alan Moore on this. It feels like it's nostalgia, and there's a certain type of nostalgia, and it's a nostalgia to comfort oneself that the status quo is actually all right.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Because you know, the heroes will do the the right thing, and and that's why I love The Watchmen. Watchmen's really stayed with me, and it's very hard, I think, to go back to that classic type of superhero once it's been deconstructed. As in real life, this would be pretty authoritarian. You wouldn't like this. They're not no you've got someone who becomes a god and becomes detached from humanity as a result. Isn't it that kind of goes into order, isn't it? Yeah, and I think that's more interesting to me. And Andor, you know, andor where there's no space wizards at all. It is just great what it takes, yeah, what it takes, what it costs to ensure a free world. That's what Andor is to me. It's going to cost you. They're not gonna sweep in, there's no one sweeping in with the lightsabers yet, they're not gonna sort it out. The people will die for this. Um, is it the sacrifice worth making, or you would you rather just live under authoritarian fascist regime? That's it. It seems like a pressing question right now. I don't know about you. Not fantasy and sci-fi being actually about the real world, no.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

Well, I I have my own uh views and opinions on the fact that we are living in the cyberpunk dystopian future with all the cool stuff at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

That was a lot cooler in Blade Runner, wasn't it?

unknown 34:58

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Could it just be a lot cooler, please?

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Yeah, the cyberpunk as well. Like, can I not be a bit more?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Boring dystopia. I don't want a boring dystopia, I want an exciting one.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

You're right. If we're gonna have a dystopia, can it please be fun at least?

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Can it be a bit more pew pew? You know, can we have a little bit of magic? Just a little bit, just a spicy and like some really nice fashion. Because fashion is very beige right now. I'm not enjoying that. Can we just bring the 80s back in a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Well, you know, it's funny you should say, Oh god, we're it's gonna go off topic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 35:27

This is the ADHD. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

But you know what? I've got notes.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

I can go back to notes.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

If you want Well no, because I want this is meant to be a discussion, isn't it? Anyone bringing myth in, you know, it's uh it's just good.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

I we'll literally talk about anything, that's the problem. I will in my head it will make sense. But I can't articulate that, so it just bounces around.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

But I think it's because we're both kind of we're both ADHD that we understand each other's language.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

That's nice. You're not just tolerating me.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

No, no, no. I'm actually understanding you.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

It's like you know, being neurodivergent, I've realized that um we just speak slightly different languages than everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Yeah, and it's a legit language, we're not weird. No, well, it's just different. Yeah, but it's just it's just different, is it? It's not defective. We've been told that if we're doing something wrong and we're just misbehaving, or if we just pulled ourselves together and it's like, no, my brain just works like this and it's cool. Yeah, my brain's great for creative work, it's great for creative work, you know. Because for something like for something like Carlac, when I was I was working a full-time job at the time and doing Carlac evenings and weekends, hyper focus because acting is my happy place, so that that it would just take all my troubles away. I wouldn't be able to think about them because I am doing that character, I'm recording that that role, and it's it's not happened yet where the outside world has crept in, and that's it's part of the drama of training is to leave it outside because it doesn't help anyone, but also we're not method, you know, we don't take this stuff home with us. Um, it wouldn't be good, it wouldn't be good to live as Karlack for it's too much, it's a lot. But I can imagine what I would be like if I was in her shoes, which is what acting is for me. So yeah, it was there was something very just very healing for me, just about being able to escape into this. This person doesn't quite realise they're a hero yet, but they're trying their best, you know, they're only just doing the best they can in the situation, and the fact that you know vigilante justice is a thing that's legal in Fey Rune. I know, it's good, isn't it? And you never get it wrong, right? You know I mean rather than dogma, I suppose, in in this game and in DD, rather than being right and wrong, there is consequences for your actions, and that's that's what I like about it, and it's that wildness of what that might be. As in, you know, going back to ancient Greek and Roman gods, they're not good. They're not necessarily good gods. No, they're very huh, they this all makes them very human, but incredibly petty, vengeful, uh power crazy, uh duplicitous. Um and maybe that helps people accept the randomness of life. Yeah. You know, this god sees you as a rival. That's why you're not getting good luck with this in your life, you know. I think that's an incredibly healthy way to view things out of your control.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

And God help you if you get on Hera's bad side, huh?

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Well, yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

And you're a demi, you know, and you're the son or daughter demi-god of uh Zeus. Zeus.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

I mean they just she just should just maybe have it out with him.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

I feel and maybe just a couple of stints at couple therapy. Just do that. Just do that. You don't have to burn the world.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

They need a god of therapy.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

God of therapy. That's one thing Faroon doesn't have, so we have violence, we don't have therapy.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

No, you don't, do you? Because I'm trying to think of some of the Feroon gods. Um God, I can't is Tear a god of justice?

SPEAKER_00 38:36

No, no, God of Light. Tear is yeah, the god of I'm thinking Paladins, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Tyr, god of justice. I the only thing I can think of is therapy gods, but it were kind of weird would be like the elven gods, but they're kind of therapy in a kind of like, oh look, sing and I was gonna say, once you start going to Fae, then it goes, it can go either way as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

They're tricksters, they're trickster gods. Again, very old, very old concept. And again, it's that slipperiness of of no, you can't pin everything to one deity and go, that will sort my life. There's only one way to live, is there is interpretation, and people have their reasons, and gods have their reasons as well.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

You know, you're giving me a good you you you and I need to write a write an uh an article together, I think. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

You're giving me some good ideas. I'm thinking I'm like gonna write notes here about some of the super saying terms of gods.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

I don't know if you played um Stray Gods, the musical. If you haven't put it on your list. Oh no, it came out yes, so it came out around the same time as Baldur's Gate 3, so I think it's kind of been ignored. Um, Austin Wintory wrote the music for it, and it is that interactive musical. You choose what they sing, and the idea is that you you've been deified, you're a normal person. Yeah, and a a I don't want to spoil it too much, but you you walk into a situation with a mythological creature and they give you godhood, and uh now Athena's after you, and you may or may not have murdered someone, and Athena is after justice, the Furies are after you, and you're gonna have to uh advocate for yourself. Uh, and you get to have all the fun of the pantheon at each other's throats. I love the Persephone in it, it's wonderful because she feels so betrayed by everyone, nobody came and helped her out. Yeah, she's really angry to the end of time with them, you know, and and Medusa, that's all about you know generational trauma, what's been done to her. Um, it's an incredible cast, it's a lot of the critical role cast. They can sing, they got some lungs on them.

SPEAKER_03 40:25

Wow.

Calliope consent and power

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Um, Troy Baker's in it, he can sing, beautiful voice. We got Orpheus as well, there's all of that set in a modern world. You should uh Josephine Bird, we were talking about before we started recording, like uh got me onto that, and it's it's it's wonderful. There's some DLC now with Orpheus as well, and of course he's got the most beautiful voice, and and check it out. But it's uh we m her and I were talking about this coming up and and about uh myth being a very safe space to explore really mod modern or contemporary issues, yeah. And so something like Stray Gods, you get that because they are modern, they're living in the modern world, and of course they've got all the thousands of years of history between them, and they're in this very dysfunctional family, and you're having to navigate that too. Um, and you get dragged into the you know, into loyalties, you know. If you pick one side, you can't pick the other as well, you can't play both, and there's a trickster character in it as well. It's absolutely fascinating and done as a musical, so very entertaining. Um, yeah, and that that does a lot to look at modern modern issues. Um, we could talk about Calliope if you want to. I played in Sandman, who for me, you know, she's again do uh I don't know if if if um certain terms you want to veil, or uh can I use terms of abuse on this podcast?

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Yeah, of course. I mean, yes, of course you can. If anything is if anything is uh uh yeah, no, please, please speak your mind. I mean it is basically uh uh an educational podcast.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Okay, so uh so the Calliope of uh Neil Gaiman Sandman is a goddess who is is tricked into a relationship with a writer, and traditionally you woo the muse, you have a loving relationship with a muse, but this guy has found a way, he burns her scroll, so he's he he now owns her, and instead of wooing her, he takes the modern quick way and he rapes her instead, and that's how he writes his his novels. But the punishment, and he does get punished, is to be forgotten when he's when he's over. Um, but for playing her myself, because she's a goddess, I decided that there wasn't that that I guess that PTSD that would come with it. It isn't that isn't the story. The story is having your liberty taken away, and the humiliation of being a once very powerful creature reduces, which is a real modern um interpretation of our relationship to the deity. If you look at the wellness industry, it's a thing to be bought. Um, it's been noticed that people who discover themselves in the West, they they it's all love and light, it's never community service, is it? It's never actually giving back, it's that selfishness. I have bought enlightenment.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

And that's very taken, taken, taken, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

That's very much Calarpie and and Rick Maddock. And and what happens in it is she she just uh happens to be uh the ex-wife of Morpheus, the main character in Sandman, and because he himself has been imprisoned for a hundred years, where he just waits it out rather beautifully, just goes, Oh, you won't believe what I'm gonna do when I get out. Because he will. He's got forever, he's got forever, and he has to watch generations die before he gets out, and it's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Uh he also has a very strong sense of justice, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_00 43:23

He does, but he's been very selfish and petty in that way that gods are, and and she's in a situation because there's a legal loophole, the Furies can't help her, no one is going to help her, she can't get out. Um, and then you all know it's immoral, but it's not illegal. Again, that kind of sounds like modern day stuff. Um, because of his newfound empathy, because he's not very empathetic as a whole, it bit where he punishes someone forever because she won't she won't go with him. So he gets this, he has to make up with his ex and he gets her out, and then they sort of go their their own ways. But but what was nice playing when talking about safe spaces and uh room to play and explore things is I wasn't playing that as a more Or human and having to go, what would that do to you? It was more about okay, we're gonna have to these exes are gonna have to talk to each other again, and we're gonna have to find that common ground. So that was a really nice place to be for myself. Uh, of course, in the room, it's with uh Dirk Mags I've known for years. I did the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy with him years ago, like 20 years ago now. So, someone I trust, I need a text, it wasn't a surprise or anything, and he handled it very sensitively as you can imagine. Um, and you know, I don't take roles I'm not comfortable with. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Although there is a whole thing, you know, another podcast to talk about. Uh film has changed now, but games they still like to to to surprise you with maybe some of the more just traumatic stuff, almost as if they know that there's going to be a fight. If they just prepared you, there wouldn't be. But they don't know. They don't tell us anything.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

I don't like actually. I don't like anything.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

I don't like it, I know there's a lot of people who don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Um I mean if you want what is the point?

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Why? So you don't object to it. You're doing it. In film, in film, it was always the first day. The first day of the shoot, you do the sex scene, and it's almost as if they want to get out of the can because they know you're gonna kick off later. But every um, I guess every cisette pretty English rose type, their first film would have nudity in it, and it would have had a sex in it, and it would have been an absolute condition, it's non-negotiable, people think it's negotiable. But like I turned down auditions for Game of Thrones series 2 because I was like, nah, I'm good, I might have to go back and work in a shop. Yeah, do you know what I mean? I I don't need you to see that bit of me, that's specifically those bits of me to tell the story. Because funny enough, the the nudity tends to only be um uh necess necessary for a certain demographic and none of the others. And once you're over 25, it's not a requirement anymore. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_02 45:42

And I can't believe it. And you know, it's not the 1970s, you know.

Fading Echo and open development

SPEAKER_00 45:46

I mean But the men were getting nude in the 1970s, that was the difference. That was the difference. All respect to Ken Russell, it was equal opportunities. In fact, it might have even gone the other way a bit, and and that's fine if it's for everyone. But when it's just like praying on a 19-year-old and the men are all covered up, they're allowed to be covered up and the women not covered. Oh, that's let's not so yeah. If you do equal opportunities, I'm all like I'll do a Hella Mirror and I'll start doing it in my 50s and 60s. Well, this is it, no. Only then, only then. But yeah, this is yeah, talking about good practice. I'm doing a game called Fading Echo at the moment where there's no NDA. There's no NDA, and I'm playing a god. She doesn't know she's a god yet.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Oh, yeah, I've seen all of your little adverts.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

This is her with uh blue hair. She she turns into water. So I've played a fiery mythological creature. Now I'm playing a watery one. That's her.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

So cute. I'm gonna have to put some of these pictures up, I think.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've had like, yeah, just a standard sort of brave warrior. She's got um uh weapon on her back, and blue hair kind of looks like a river, sort of uh defined gravity, and that's one, her name's one. She's only lived with her mother, she lives on a desert planet, and she's about to find out everything that her her family have squandered, which is a beautiful Earth, a sort of beautiful planet. So it's a great analogy, I suppose, for what's been done to this planet, and and I guess being a child on this planet and inheriting well, flails wildly, you know, all of this, and and what that's gonna do to her. And what's great about one, because I've recorded her now, is that she's naturally heroic.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

It's not gonna be going away to come back to find herself. It's she's so kind of like you then. Well, uh I'd love to have magic powers, but yeah, I always stroke I always spoke truth to power.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Um I joined Amnesty International as I could when I became software engineer, I did a little project with them where we um looked at oil spills in in Niger Delta and digitized them because they were there was a loophole where they were scanning PDFs, so you couldn't get the data right, you have to read it. Um and we estimated it would take a human 20 years to digitize it. So what we did was put it out to the public and they did that for us, and we were able to go, yeah, it was a re it was so satisfying. And in the end, in terms of implementing it, it took less than a month because of wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we just had to scan those documents and go, okay, so all these are from Shell, all these are from yeah, different uh petroleum. I think BP were actually involved with me enough, but Shell were. Um yeah, and trying to take into account because yeah, an oil spill in Europe or America gets dealt with very quickly, it turns out, but in the middle of West Africa, it doesn't. So there was all of that. And and so yeah, I I you know, and and we had we had to be a bit careful because folks on the ground there were getting targeted, as you can imagine, because it's corruption. We're talking about corruption on all sides as well. So we had to be a little bit careful about exposing them to and going, no, it's coming from Europe, okay. If you're gonna come for us, come to London. Yes, uh, you know, and and there has been some reform, but cultural corruption is gonna take a long time to break down, and when money's involved, you have to give an incentive to to do the right thing as well. Um, but yeah, it's it is about for me at least, it's about this this sort of ecological mess we're in, and and one is gonna choose to to fix it, she's not gonna run away. Okay, and and she's she everyone around her is a god basically, and she talks to them like they're mates, they're buddies, she's not scared of it. She doesn't know, she doesn't know yet what she is, and so that's gonna be interesting as she now meets the pantheon, you know, the the brothers and sisters that don't live on this desert planet that might be a bit shady. Are they gonna be able to corrupt her because she doesn't have that context, she doesn't really know her power, she doesn't know who she is. And water, of course, can be very essential, nourishing, and it can drown you, it can absolutely destroy things. And I'm really excited. If this does well, there'll be more games and stuff, and it's based on a TTRPG. I'd be really interested to see where they take her as as events unfold. When's it coming out? Next year. Don't know when. If they're smart, they'll do it before GTA 6, because that's gonna dominate. Do before. But we've got a playtest. I don't know when you're gonna put this out, but a playtest is going live at the end of September. Um, and you can get involved in Discord, it's very open. Oh, I'd love to see.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

I'm gonna do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Yeah, yeah, you can stick your head in and then meet the folks. And you said the CEOs are in there, just they're very normal, and um, it's unusual to be given uh uh this amount of of trust. And what have I done? I've revealed I'm in it, a bit about the plot. That isn't a surprise if you've engaged with what they've released. Um, the other characters are played by uh we have Matt Mercer and um uh Laura Bailey and Jasmine Miller, who'll be known from TTRPG Spaces. Jasmine's actually writing it as well as playing the mother character in it. Oh yeah, it's really cool, it's really cool. And then uh international team, but based in Leon, they're former Blizzard devs, so they've come from World of Warcraft, they know how to make a damn good game. So I'm in very safe hands. I was allowed to record myself in the studio my first time in my life. I've been and I could go, oh, that's how I work, you'll see the ADHD, it's terrifying. I'll be laughing away and then into a really, really emotional scene, and then laughing again, like you know, and it doesn't it doesn't stay with me in the in a negative way, it's all it's all very fun and positive experience, very cathartic. As an introvert of how I got into acting, it was just a very safe and cathartic space for me to express emotions other than anger. Well, this is so it's all it's it's all sort of very it's it's very fulfilling. That's why I love the acting part. Business side is its own thing and and all that, but but with companies like Newtails doing fading echo and being so public, there are other ways of doing this, you know, in which the performer feels part of the team and not just an actor's.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

You've got a lot of other actors involved in that, don't you? And all of them are coming from a similar perspective to you, especially if you've got actors writing it and things, and um you can already see that the fact that they're being open about it is a good step in the right direction. Yeah.

Life as a roleplayer

SPEAKER_00 51:29

It's so cheeky. We do we did a podcast before we recorded, Jasmine's writing it, right? And the very first question she asked, Manu Ober, who's who runs the whole thing with Sylvan Sechi, was you know, so you know, you've you've done this TTRPG, we've seen the Bible, we know the whole world. You're gonna see about five percent of it in this game. Why didn't you just write a book? And then we just we didn't stop laughing. Because it's so true. But they've got if this does well, they do have plans for world domination. This will be released in different formats. There'll be so many adventures in echo with different characters, different pantheons, as I said, there's so much more. We're just seeing it through essentially a child's eyes at the moment. We're seeing the world through this very narrow perspective, and it and it it obviously needs to do well, but if it does, I sense there's a TTRPG coming because we've spoken about that at length, and that would be very cool. Because again, it's that freedom. What would you do under her circumstances? You know, there's all that, it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 52:24

I wanted to talk to you um about uh TTRPGs because you're a um you're a role player as well, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Yeah, now a professional one, apparently. I know I've been with my friends. I was just playing with my friends, and now every time I play it's in public, and it's a bit weird, but yeah, um, I'm embracing it, it's all good. I do like a trickster character, yes, rather than yeah. I mean, my very first was a barbarian because easy, and I've come from video games, I just want to hit things and then get the story. Don't really want to think about spell slots or any of that nonsense. I've played a warlock, that's the closest I'm gonna get, but um yeah, they'll got us to do 20 sided tavern as well, which is a sort of panto version where the audience play on their phones, they're they're they're aligned to a warrior trickster, a spellcaster. When is this? Yeah, it it was in um off Broadway, and now it's touring America. It's a fantastic cast. Most of them come from that Chicago improv school. Very supportive, the most supportive cast I've ever been in. Um, I really miss them. I miss them dearly. We had such an uh intimate week and a half together. Uh I I did eight shows and they're three hours each. It was a lot.

unknown 53:28

Oh, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

But I played this trickster and it was it was so fun and fulfilling, and and a lot of the brain is taken out of it. It's very reactive.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Did you come into the West End?

SPEAKER_00 53:38

No, no, and I mean there's a lot of tabletop at the moment that's going around the country. I played Call of Cthulhu round the country with Mark Mir and uh other TTRPG Illuminaries, but in America, yeah, it's it's quite a spenny show. You you see your money on stage, there's a there's so many props to play with. They even have like two, they have two DMs, one is for the story and one is called the Tavern Master, who works with the audience. I love it. And they they cue the sound and the visual effects because there's a lot of that going on. So it's it's all in mercy, it's a real theatre show. We wear costumes, um, yeah, they shout suggestions out. We never have to think about names, they shout them out in us. We try and wear it.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

It's like a rocky horror, but with DD.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

I like to think that. Do you know what? They allow because Hasbro don't care about music copyright in any way, they just care that I don't mention uh rival toys. I was allowed to be a bard who only sang David Bowie songs with the original lyrics, full songs, didn't care. Um, and then the other one was Katya, who was um a very underpowered, um, at least on the sheet, uh a very underpowered tabaxi thief. So she was just a cat. She's a cat. She's trying to be very sophisticated, but she'd sit on maps, she'd knock things off the table for attention. It's what they do, and so I was a cat half the time. That was fun. I love it. So it was it was a good time. It was a good time. Just just giving into whatever struck my brain at the time. Yeah, it was really fun.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

What's it like being a um because I know we only have a few more minutes, but what's it like being a um a pro gamer now? A pro teacher.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Well, the great thing is I don't really watch myself or uh so it's always a surprise when someone has a perspective that I haven't seen. It's not something um I thought was possible. Um, so I didn't know it was a thing, but uh I'm just really glad that I played before I got Baldur's Gate because it helped me understand the world, it helped shortcut a lot of stuff in in the recording room. Um and then yeah, I mean people spend years getting the profile so they can sit on the table with certain people, and that was just given to me, right? I'm very aware of the privilege. My first public game being with Brennan Lee Mulligan. Wow, I know who sat next to me and just of course went with me in very, very giving, you know, and and it was just you know, and Abria, ayenga, and um, you know, other folks that we've played with, it's been it's just they've been so very kind and they're at the top of their games. I always feel like I'm just about catching up with them, you know. It's but with with someone like playing as Carla, of course, very barbarian, yeah, and someone I've lived with for a number of years, so it it that's that's fine, that's not a problem. It's it's rolling the new characters I find a bit more challenging and making them different and interesting and all of that. So that'll take it.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

I think the fun thing is about doing the R R the T T RPGs as well, and here we go, this is the ADHD. Sorry for those listening. Um, the uh TT RPGs, when you are actually uh rolling a character, you'll always notice that every single character that you roll has one quirk that you can't kind of get out of it. Like I'm always playing a particular type of character, not a completely different personalities, but there's only one quirk that I will always have. My character has to be good looking. I can't I can't not be. I have to have a high charisma stat. I have to have a high charisma stat. I cannot do anything else. So I can play any other character apart from something without high charisma. Uh and at the moment I'm playing uh Pathfinder, 5th edition, and uh and I'm running a cyberpunk campaign. Oh cool. Yeah, have to play you in it's a cameo.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Hell yeah, let's do it. I'll be someone very uncharismatic. That'll be fun. I did do that recently in a Boston Fan Expo, played uh a one-shot um as a kobold cleric. He's not, he's a warlock, he doesn't know it. Um, called Melt and John. It was a musical. I sang the songs of Elton John. It looks like this. Yeah, I got this, I got this, it's alright. And then beautiful Elton John voice when he sings to his god, which is a patron, doesn't know it yet. And he melts, sings with his hands, but he thinks he's a healer. So yeah, I could play as a troll. I can play as a total troll. If you take if you take the charisma away from me, I'll do something else. But yeah, you're absolutely right, everyone is very good looking in in DD. They are, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 57:47

You never get any like ugly people in DD, do you? And I don't know what it is. It's like, what's wrong with not having a ugliness? It's like, what's wrong with having a charisma that's not 18? You know? Yeah, like what's wrong with having a 10.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

I'm gonna lean in, I I'll take that, I'll lean into a bit more. I'm gonna play some charismaless people and uh who are always right, but no one believes them.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

Like a Cassandra type character.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Yeah, absolutely like a Cassandra, yeah, and having went in software engineering and going, no, no, no, that's a real that's a real security thing. And and then go, and then no, it's expensive, and then it goes wrong, and you go, Yeah, just call me Cassandra.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

We're not gonna listen to your problem. But um, Sam, this has been brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

I'd say if you want to get some more questions in, do it. I've got I've got some questions. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

Oh, yeah, because I know you're on a because I want to get more questions in, but I I've got a lunch date.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

I've got a late lunch date with a friend, uh dev friend from America, so we gotta we gotta do that. It's lovely.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

Well, no, I'm quite happy to ask more questions because I'm I'm just working with your schedule because um you have a uh life than I do.

Fame, emails, and leaving tech fields

SPEAKER_00 58:49

It's horrible, but you know, you you you you go into acting going, I want to be a successful, busy actor, and then it happens. You go, oh not like that.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

But as I said at the top when we went expect the whole thing, did you expect to blow up so much?

SPEAKER_00 59:00

No, no, nobody does, and certainly not in games because I didn't train for it in any way, you know. As I said, the old theatre training comes in very useful because it gives you that that perspective, that very um uh big big picture sort of perspective, and then you learn the the technique for each medium. But um, no, not at all. I wouldn't have a clue that this was available to me. I didn't know, but they train you like you are the world's busiest actor, so when your schedule's full of acting, it's fine. It's when it's full of of replying to emails, is a problem, and you've got executive dysfunction. If I don't see it, it's not gonna be replied to. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

This is the problem, but even if I do see it, sometimes it's not replied to. I'm not gonna be like, I'll be back.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

No, you see, so that that means I'm up at 2 a.m. replying to emails because if I don't do it now, I won't, and then yeah, you don't sleep or function, so that's not so fun. But no, I'm not gonna complain about um working. No, it's been it's been absolutely wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

Yeah, I love how you bring back the uh software engineer because then people can realise that you're like a you know, sorry to say that you're like a mega geek.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Well, yeah, I thought it but you know, because I'd done every out of work actor job, right? And when they used before zero hours came in, so you could just do your job, walk away, and now what they do is they understaff and guilt trip you, which doesn't work when you're on minimum wage. Um, and and the the job search is so arduous that you know I was going, what can I do? That will pay me a lot of money to do less. And it was it turns out it was software engineering, but yeah, when you actually when you make your own stuff, a lot more fun than than working for the man, as it turns out. And I wanna I wanna uh highlight that uh Dave Jones, who plays Hal Sin, was in IT until very recently. Yes, he was in finance it. Uh Sissy Jones was in Silicon Valley, um, and Jay Britton was a network engineer. So you start to see how expensive this uh this this profession is. You have to be a software engineer to be able to be afforded, and of course that locks you down into more voice work because they're shorter schedules, right? If you're on a film or commercial, they will book out two weeks of your time and sort of push you around and go, Oh, can you change it to that? And you kind of have to say, Yeah, or someone else will jump in. So once you lock into that full-time job, which is what it is, they don't really offer part-time or anything. Um, it becomes more and more difficult. But I was working when it was remote, I was working during COVID, so it was all right, and then this blew up and I've got an income. So I'm like, which is nice. Bye! I'm not doing this again. This is horrible.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

I can actually be creative and make money, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

And talk to people, and talk to people, and feel like I'm making a positive difference rather than making a stranger lots of money.

Mass Effect, Twin Peaks, and mythic worlds

SPEAKER_02 1:01:31

And to be honest, it's really nice to see people like yourself making such a positive difference because we do. Oh god, it only takes a couple of people just to push. Sometimes just one. It does sometimes, you know. It's a it's a long haul, but sometimes it is. Um, but yeah, um, what other questions did I have? Let's have a look. I think I've got um, ah, here we go. This is a good one. Now I think I touched on it a little bit in the beginning, but uh whether as a performer or a player, have there been any games or story moments that hit your mythic nerve? Because I know you also mentioned Assassin's Creed and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

So anything that you Yeah, yeah, so Mass Effect, uh Space Opera. I love a space opera. Um I love sci-fi, and my favourite movies as of this second is Blade Runner. That'll be followed quite closely by Mar Holland Drive, but that's a different kind of fantasy world. I love David Lynch, I love these big worlds of symbolism, and I love the attention to detail, so I want it all. Um I was thinking about I was having to think about this because it's all you know it's all very contextual because it's not necessarily games, I don't necessarily get lost in the world of games, but give me a good space opera and I'm in for the long term. And Mass Effect, the world building and Mass Effect is so good. It really drew me in when I started playing and those, you know, those old bioware games where your choices really matter. They really matter, and people know what you did, you know. There's all that when people meet Karlac and they're like, Yeah, she wasn't pleased that we did a genocide on tieflings. I'm like, well, I know she wasn't there, but word gets around, you know, and the same thing, you know, if you kill the spider queen quite early on in Mass Effect, like people know they know what you did, and they're gonna, you know, maybe you did it for what you thought was the right reasons at the time, but there are consequences, and you're not gonna please everyone. And I love that about that. Um, and yeah, the world the world of Twin Peaks. I know it's not video games, but the I like Alan Wake. Yeah. It's fine. But yeah, the world of Twin Peaks is so very rich and and open to interpretation. And I know there's a million videos on YouTube normally featuring a dude telling you the right way to interpret, which goes very much against if you ever watch if you ever watch old interviews with with David Lynch or even later ones where they gave it a go, he'd be like, I'm not telling you. I'm not telling you. And the way in really is to look at his fine art, and um everyone forgets Mark Frost. Mark Frost came up with a lot of the mythology, he brought in the Bhavagad Gita, and I think if you know more Hindu mythology, you're gonna understand where a lot of this symbolism comes from pretty fire and uh dual aspects. There's a lot of duality in in the Twin Peaks one and Lynch's work, but a lot of that's coming from Mark Frost as well, and you know, they they wrote all these books. There's the the prequels to The Return. The return I love because it's so anti-nostalgia to the point where he's trolling, right? You know, a certain character is gonna have to wake up and do the thing, and he ain't gonna let that happen until the last episode. Yeah, yeah, it's true, it's true, and I was so frustrated and I was like, Good on you, you massive troll. And then episode eight being possibly the best hour of TV I've ever watched in my life. Again, with that world building with where all the these um spirit these lodge spirits have actually come from, where they're coming from, how they fit in, where we fit in. Perhaps Ron being the hero, um, Agent Cooper is the fool. If we're talking archetypes, he's actually the fool and he keeps making the same mistake. And maybe he's dealing, he's trying to manipulate things in a way that makes sense to him in terms of justice, but he doesn't understand cosmic justice because we're just ants on this planet, and and that's a really interesting thing. It's not about being passive, but it's an interesting journey. And again, if you know where they're coming from mythologically, and it isn't a western perspective, it makes a lot more sense. It makes a lot more sense, and it's just I just love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

I think it's a well, this is it, but unfortunately, I think because you know we we grew up in the West from from a everything that we frame, we frame everything in our own perspectives.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

And that's what's great about having these other perspectives again, very safe places to explore them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:22

Yeah. But um, thank you so much, Sam. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

This has been fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:27

Yeah, yeah. And can we please uh meet up again to have a chat and discuss?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

I'd love to. I'd love to get a bit of Titus Andronicus and the uh influence of Ovid's metamorphosis on that story, because it's one of my favourites. Why didn't we get to that? Because it wasn't really relevant to the now because that was. It's a Jacobean revenge tragedy, right? And they're seen a scene in the theatre world as slasher movies, right? It's this low culture now. But it's Shakespeare, it's an early Shakespeare and and it's poetic, and there's a duly Tamor uh version with Anthony Hopkins, I think, is an excellent interpretation, and she uses a lot of symbolism to get to the dark. This it's very dark and violent, right? It's a very violent piece. But there is there, you know, we talk about you know the stereotype of kids you know playing violent video games and going out there and killing was kind of what happens in Titus Andronicus, the children of the new queen read metamorphosis, do a horrible crime on a rival's uh daughter, and make it worse because they know what happens in the story and they don't want it to answer them, so they are influenced by metamorphosis, and I think that's absolutely fascinating for Shakespeare to not just interpret metamorphosis, you could have just done a play like that, yeah, it would have been close to Midsummer Night's Dream, but for them for Romans to be influenced by the stories of the time and bring that into things and going, no, no, not a safe space to explore difficult emotions, we're gonna bring that into the real world, and and that will help us dehumanize our enemies. And I think again, oppression, interesting. Titus Andrologus is one of my favourite plays, it's an unpopular opinion in the old theatre world, but I don't care, it's not as sophisticated as the others, but my god, man's inhumanity to man, tit for tat, revenge, all that not learning from our experiences, not having empathy now that it's happened to us, it's so relevant. Love it. It seems like that has to come out in the globe sometime soon. Every year it comes out and people pass out. I love watching people pass because it still has its power. I mean, it's a very bloody scene. I know people faint at the side of blood, but uh every time I've seen that play, people will pass out or they start, they leave. It's too much.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:33

Are you going too much? Are you going to uh see if you can get into it?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

What, be Lavinia in the play? Or don't have that access, I'm afraid. Boo. It's all very it's all very cliquey, you have to be in those worlds, and unfortunately, being known for video games might actually go against me. Oh come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

Let's see, this is this, isn't it? Because I mean you're a classically trained actor as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

I am, but but if you Google me, you'll see voice actor everywhere, and that doesn't help me. That's why I kind of go, not a voice actor, I do other things too. But I've done you know, I've done the stage plays and that they're just um on the fringe, they're just very expensive um with uh small audiences, so there's there's a little reward for the effort, and uh you know essentially you're putting your own money into it. So I did that a while ago, um, and then yeah, I just went, I've got to earn some money. This is it. I'd love to go back to the I love 20-sided tavern. 20-sided tavern. The story of 20 sided tavern is you could be a hero tomorrow, which is why singing Bowie's Heroes came up a lot. A lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

You've got to get it, you've got to get it to the West End.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

I'd love to, we've got to find a backer.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:37

There's gotta be somebody, surely.

Why theatre avoids new works

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

You'd you'd think, oh, you'd be so there's very little new work in the West End. You might have noticed. Yeah, again, nostalgia. But it's nostalgia, it's musicals, it's touring if you live outside of London, it'll be touring productions or very well-known pieces, very few risks made. You will you will be going to, you know, if you want that new writing, either your local space has a studio theatre if you're lucky, or there are places like I don't know, Soho Theatre, there's Rumsabove pubs in London. But again, people don't really risk that. They love uh they do love a name, and those names generally aren't doing new writings. So I mean the last big thing I remember was Mark uh Rylance being in Jerusalem. That was a really big deal in London because it was such a state of the nation piece. Yeah, and we're talking about 15 years ago now, so it's difficult. Yeah, it's really difficult, and so they'll put on a uh a one-person show when the theatre's dark, but in terms of new writing, and National's good for it, but there's still a lot of revivals in there. There's there's very little risk taken in the West End. And same with Broadway as well, to be honest. Well, this is it.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:37

I because I'm not I love the West End. I love the West End. It's like my it's like hap my happy place, but yeah, I know what you mean. I because I recently saw um uh The Devil Wars Prada and Does that need to be made? Did that need to think Does Heathers need to be made into a musical?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:54

Does all the 80s and 90s films need to be made into musical right now?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:58

They don't, they don't, and I think the dis difficulty and and you know, as as a classically trained actor yourself as well, why do we have to have plays that are exactly like the films? I have to say I've gone to a couple recently in the West End world.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:09

Because it's back to the future as well, isn't there? Stranger Things is now a play as well, which plays on 80s nostalgia.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

Go on, what were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

What were you gonna say? I don't even remember what I was gonna say. About going to the West End. Oh yeah, back on the West End. So I love it. Yeah, and I recently saw the Devil Watch Prada, and I was like, well, that was that was just in the meh. I did see um Sigourney Weaver in um The Tempest, though. Yeah. And I'll allow Shakespeare.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

I'll allow Shakespeare. Oh yeah, cabaret cabaret was great.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:40

I haven't seen Cabaret, I want to see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:42

I saw um Mason Xander in in in cabaret, and they were I will now want to be the MC. I want to be the MC now. I think that that I should play that.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:51

I mean they are amazing. I didn't realise how amazing their voice was, and uh the Tempest was just mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

I love the Tempest, such a good I played uh Miranda and Trinculo once in a fringe in a fringe production. So I was on stage for like two-thirds of the thing, but I just liked yeah, I just like switching those genders around and and uh and all that. You can really play with it. Shakespearean characters always assert their gender, it's it's once you start noticing it. It's funny, isn't it? It's really as a man, this is what I think, because reminding the audience that uh as a woman, which you get reminding the audience that this small boy in front of you is definitely playing a woman, I guess. But they always do, they always assert that. It's an interesting thing when you're playing different to type.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:32

Yeah, I think what they need to do is they kind of need to reverse it a little bit though. You know, like in the uh because uh uh when Shakespeare was so popular, they they literally had all men playing the parts, didn't they? Yeah, production where they got women just holding the colours.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:43

Oh, they do that, they do that at the globe now and then, yeah, they do at the globe. I saw I've seen a Richard the Third, I've seen a Henry the Fourth parts one and two. Yeah, because it's all that's toxic masculinity, isn't it? This lad is trying to prove himself to his dad so to get involved in a war to prove himself as the next heir, you know, it's it's a it's a very interesting yeah thing to come across. Yes, uh yeah, I think I mean I've seen quite a lot of that, but I think that's the circles I'm in as well. But yeah, there is it's very interesting space. It's always been queer. Shakespeare, haha. Shakespeare's always been queer because it was always played by men, and so that makes sense. Absolutely, absolutely and you've got men playing women who are playing men, you know, your Rosalind. Like in Twelfth Night, and you're yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it happens in Twelfth Night and it happens in As You Like It.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:29

You guys know we're really geeking out on Shakespeare, aren't we?

The art of acting in a video game

SPEAKER_00 1:12:31

This is what I do. This is why they're like, What about the voice acting? I don't know what that is. I'm not a voice actor, I'm an voice actor, I'm an actor, but no, you know, I'm not, I can't produce the um the levels of possession needed to hold the you see them, you see real a real voice actor who's really worked at this, they are possessed, right? They will voice anything. Yeah, it's like every you know, it's like a compulsion, everything has a voice and an attitude, it's a different way of seeing the world, it's a different way of acting, it's it's not me distancing myself in a kind of snobby way, it's me being realistic about expectations. You go in and you're uh you ask me to play a 47-year-old and then a 52-year-old and make them different. That's not gonna happen, is it? Yeah, and and you know, we want authentic accents now, so that's kind of fallen off. We don't have the amount of um ADR in this country dubbing, all of that. We don't have that. America has that, so we don't even have the scene to I know a handful of people or men that make a living out of a voice-only work, and it is five of them in this country. That's it. In America, you there's more work, you can do that sort of thing, there's more animation as well, and and other forms, not just games. But games is now getting a little bit more grounded with the acting, not saying that voice actors can't do that, but their skills aren't required. You're not required to bounce off the walls and do, you know, unless that is the style of that particular game. But now these narrative-heavy games, you see Expedition 33 as well, you see in the in altars where Alex Jordan is playing a million clones of the same person, but they again have to sound very grounded.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:01

That's a good that's good, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:03

Yeah, that's a real gift for an actor. We love all that stuff, but it's not requiring you to be different people or to um yeah, it's just yeah, it's I'm just gonna keep using the word grounding. There's a sort of um hyper-real element that anime has, and I've bought into fading echo. Yeah, I'm only doing the one voice for that, but that suits the anime style, and she's younger, so we're starting her up quite pitched high, but it doesn't require like anything else, any other skill from me. You know, there's people who can play kids till their lives, and and it normally have quite high voices themselves. I know it's a Powerpuff Girls cast have naturally high voices and that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that's how they do it. But you'll get asked, you'll be like, Can you play an eight-year-old? No, not at all, no idea how to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:43

So I think this is maybe this is where uh people have to, and it's good you're mentioning it on this podcast anyway, because you know it all ties into storytelling, and this is what we're talking about, you know, because myth is linked to that, and um, it'd be really nice if people realize that when it comes to video game acting, you are basically not just voicing, but you're moving. And I think people need to understand that when you're voicing a anime or a cartoon that is voice acting, you're not having to act out that character, are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:12

No, but you're you're you're making whatever shape you you know. The famous footage for me is is Robin Williams as as the genie, right? And everyone goes, okay, that's voice acting, and it kind of is. I've been in the room with them, with people of that level, and it's intimidating. I can't do that, I don't have the spoons for it, it's gonna knock me out, right? It's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:29

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.

Final takeaways, and next time

SPEAKER_00 1:15:30

But the thing with we talk about you know the negative side of not being told what you're doing. Sometimes you go in and and there's a mocap suit waiting for you. They've not told you it's mocap. So if you haven't got that training, if you haven't got the experience, let's call it experience rather than training, if you've only ever acted from the neck up, what are you gonna do when you've been told you're a mind flayer now? Assuming you know what a mind flayer is, yeah. How do you physicalise that? And and now you're a goblin, now you're human soldier, and now you are you know a dwarf who's who's um really strong, uh, has mummy issues going. It's it's how do you embody that and and that's got always gonna come back to theatre. And and you're you're being filmed and you're going line by line, out of order, you're maintaining a lot of the time an archetype, especially in fantasy stuff. There's all of that Commedia dell'arte said Lecoq earlier on, all of that comes into it, and the discipline to to be able to sustain that mask if it if you are using mask as a technique. So if you've done that training, if you've got the experience, it's gonna be it's not gonna be scary. I was gonna say it's gonna be easy, it's not easy, but it's not gonna be intimidating, and that's the reason I trained, is because I felt so far out of my depth when I got the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, and everyone in the room was famous, famous, right? Yeah, and I'm pretending I belong, and it's not even imposter syndrome, right? I just locked out and got this job. I didn't train, I hadn't really had any experience, and I was going, I never want to feel like a fish out of water again, and it wasn't because of how people treated me, it was knowing that I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Um and and through doing drama training, the great thing about that is it is this you go from um mystery plays, really, to Greek tragedy, up to Shakespeare, and then Pinter and then um modern writing, and then for a musical in there, restoration comedy, just to know you never want to do restoration comedy, I feel like the most unfulfilling experience ever. Is this the screeds of out-of-date satire that no one's gonna get, uh, that you have to learn. Oh, this is horrible. But uh, for radio, I'd have to learn it. But um, yeah, all of that you get that you might do learn how to do an audiobook or something, you know, you just a bit of everything. So when life throws a curveball um in terms of career, it's not gonna like games acting. I didn't know I was gonna be an actor in games, but it all works, it all goes together. I'm telling good stories, stories that mean something to me. Um, and uh, you know, it's it's a very it doesn't matter the format to me, what matters is the quality of that storytelling and actually the impact because there's in the fringe, there's a risk that you're playing to yourself and to your 10 mates, and why put in all that effort if no one's gonna see it? It's not an argument for rampant commercialism, but I think people have to see the work as well, yeah, rather than to be congratulated by your own mates, right? It should be challenging, it should be people should be talking about it, hopefully and if it's positive, so that's the surprise of Carla, is that it's it seems to be very positive. Um, that she comforts people in some of the maybe the darkest areas they've ever been in in their lives, and and that's it's been such a gift, it really has. And and especially now, I think, when people really need either that escapism or a safe place to explore maybe difficult things in their life. It's gift. Thank you so much, Sam.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

I think we'll leave it there. Yeah, um, yeah. I'm hoping that we can have uh future discussion as well because there's a lot of other things that you brought up that I think would be really good for us to cover in terms of storytelling. Of course. So thank you for being here with us. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:58

Yeah, it's been fantastic. We finally got here, so that's been great. And uh I and you know, it's quite nice when you meet somebody and you realize they're kind of how you expected them to be. Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:10

I don't know how I come across. I'm just me. I'm just trying to be mean.