Medusa Unbound: Fear, Seduction, and Reclaiming Power (with Dr Gina Bevan)

Medusa has been a monster, a warning, a victim, and a symbol. In this episode, Dr Dani Shalet is joined by Dr Gina Bevan, whose work explores pop culture, gender, queer narratives, and ancient myth. Together they trace Medusa’s shifting meanings across myth and modernity, exploring fear, seduction, repression, and the power of the gaze. Their conversation also considers how Medusa has become a figure of empowerment, reclaimed by artists, writers, and thinkers who see strength where earlier traditions saw only danger or desire. 

Music: Intro and outro — Spirits of the Woods by Rotem Moav. 

www.mythsgamesmeaning.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to Myths Games and meaning it's been about six weeks since my last episode, which I thoroughly enjoyed, and I enjoyed this one. It has been a while, it has been a crazy six weeks, but things are back to normal, and I'm looking forward to bringing you more exciting episodes and more guests. This episode is about Medusa, and I thoroughly enjoyed recording this with Dr. Gina Bevan, and I hope you enjoy listening. It's nice to be back. Hello everyone, and welcome to Miss Games and Meaning. I am here with a very special guest, Gina Bevan, from many universities. Gina, would you like to introduce yourself to the audience?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Yeah, sure. Thanks, Danny. So yeah, Dr. Gina Bevan. Completed my PhD in 2021 on Medusa and Medusa and Pop Music. So it's called Pop Medusa. Yeah, multiple universities, I guess, at the moment. Programme director at the BA Humanities at Swanse University, but then also teach um on religious studies modules for Cardiff University and Open University, and some ancient history modules as well for Cardiff. So yeah, all over the place, but firmly within the humanities umbrella. Do you have a favourite subject? Or topic? You know what? So my That's not Medusa. Hmm. Right, so my work is interdisciplinary, and so I'm quite greedy, so I don't have a favourite subject. But what I really love is combining my interests, which are essentially myth, specifically Medusa, but also pop culture and queer theory. So combining all three is the ideal. And I've done that, maybe we'll touch on it later, but I've gone beyond Medusa when combining all three, um, particularly having a look at a portrait of a lady on fire where all three sort of like neatly come together. Um, so yeah, not a you know, not a favourite subject per se, but multiple.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

No, that's that's amazing. Um, I didn't realize that your queer theory was one of your topics as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Yeah, so um I really like applying a queer lens. Um, especially there's so much coming out at the moment with marginalized communities um reclaiming myth to give themselves a voice. Um, one of those being the queer community. Um, at the moment, there's quite a bit of work being done on Medusa and particularly queer women. Um, so I was talking about this with one of uh my PhD students at Swans University the other day, actually. So I'm gonna give a shout-out to Artie. Um, but yeah, so we were discussing Medusa, and Artie is focusing on Medusa in social media. So slightly different to what I did, but looking at yeah, Medusa and Tumblr and Instagram and threads, etc. Um, but what's emerging is uh stories around Medusa and her blind lover. Oh yeah, so it becomes like this really beautiful sort of appropriation of Medusa in a beautiful sort of queer love story. Um some of those narratives make the queer uh love story between Medusa and Andromeda. So Perseus is taken out of the equation and it's between those two female characters within this myth. Um, and actually, so not really a shameless plug, but um, yeah, so my book is is coming out next year, turning the thesis into a book. And when I was collecting images to put into the book, one of them, and one of my favourites actually, is called Medusa and a Blind Lover. And it was created by an artist called Jennifer Prince. You might be familiar with Jennifer Prince. Um, she's got a huge um following on Instagram, and she does these sort of like vintage pop art images of um queer female love. Um, and so she chose to show Medusa and her um sort of blindfolded um sort of lover. Um and that was requested by one of her um sort of fans, and obviously based on what this fan had read on Tumblr and all these um sort of stories created by people who aren't sort of like professional, shall we say, um authors, but have the freedom to express themselves using online platforms?

SPEAKER_02 4:58

So where because that's really fascinating, thank you, because uh and it is so nicely, especially what you say about you know the queer community using myth um to to uh to you know to express identity and to express themselves, which I think is fantastic. Um where did that idea of Medusa and Andromeda come from? I have no idea. Interesting, and why Andromeda, I wonder.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

I know, and that's why not Athena. Exactly. Well, yeah. Um, and isn't that the beauty of classical reception? You know, it's ever-evolving, and you can make it what you want it to be, and that's why it's so interesting that we have different communities taking what they find attractive about the ancient world, or you know, myth specifically, and moulding it to make their own and amplifying their voice. So it's you know creating something new, but also if we're thinking about queer theory, we're also uncovering queer voices from the ancient world as well that have been marginalized and you know haven't been heard for a long, long time because of the ways the ancient world has been received, right? Um, and that doesn't go just for the the queer community. Um we can explore this in terms of race, gender, and so forth. Um, so I think really exciting things are happening at the moment with how people are engaging with the classical world.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

I think that's fascinating because um, interestingly enough, I was talking to uh Nancy Santos, who's part of the uh OMC survey thing as well, and she's a big gamer, and we were talking about Assassin's Creed Odyssey, and there is a story in there about Medusa. Have you played it? Have you played Assassin's Creed Odyssey?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

So I know where you're heading with this.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

You know where I'm heading with it. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

But I'm just going to say that I am the world's worst gamer, so I have to Oh good, okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

No, I don't worry, I wasn't gonna ask you any gaming questions. I was just gonna say that there's a story in there where Medusa is actually um has a gay lover.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Um, and she's searching for her because she goes missing and and it's it's quite pretty, it's quite nice. So I do wonder if some of those stories might have originated from that idea about 10 years ago or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

So for sure. Yeah, so I absolutely know the sort of plot line you'll you're um speaking of there, but I just have to add that when I'm playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey, I got distracted by all this sort of going around and doing stuff. Yeah, I was. I was just going on my horse, going for rides, and I just completely deviated from the main story. So I have played about 40 hours.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Oh, you have?

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Okay, that's really progress. But you know what? You know, on that um same note, I was um talking to one of my friends the other day, and they were like, you've got to play this game called Hades, and Danny's probably familiar with this, right? Yeah. Um, and they were saying, So, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but Medusa makes an appearance in Hades as a floating head and is called Deuce, I believe. Um and I guess we've got to apply a queer lens there because I believe the main character is bisexual, but I'm not yeah, so this is just what I've been told. I haven't delved uh dived too deeply into this. Um, but yeah, see, that's what I mean. There's just so much to speak about. Um fascinating stuff.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

I love it, and and I love um I love hearing a lot because you know I'm I'm uh LGBT myself, so it's quite nice to hear what's going on uh in terms of research on queer theory as well, and how that and it seems to be wonderfully um amalgamated. You know, the community seems to love their mythology.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Not everyone, mind you. I mean, I can't be speaking for for the whole community, but it does seem to be uh a theme throughout.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, and I think that just ties into what we've already said. So, you know, I'm part of the queer community, uh, and it goes without saying that sometimes it's difficult to find yourself represented in popular culture. Yeah. Um, you have to dig quite deeply. But the beauty of online platforms is that you can create, everyone's a creator, that's right, um, and so you can have use that platform and yeah, release your own stories that reflect your identity.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Absolutely. And that's the nice thing about myth, isn't it? Because it's and and you know, I think this is where Medusa fits in the room as well. And moving further on to Medusa, I was just wondering if you could give obviously a lot of people are familiar with the history of Medusa, but can you give us a an uh can you just give us a quick rundown of her history or who Medusa was in Greek myth before we move into how she's reimagined now, which I'm really looking forward to you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah, sure. So always good to start at the beginning and think about you know what who was Medusa in in the ancient world and you know what has she become since. Um it's really important to note that when we're talking about Medusa, there is no singular so-called Medusa myth. Um, and indeed, in the versions we have where Medusa is mentioned, um, it's not her story. She is not the sole focus. Usually she's part of someone else's story, and it's usually part of Perseus' tale, who is the so-called hero in this myth. Um, her perspective is never given. Um, even before Perseus decapitates her head, Medusa doesn't have um a voice, and so of course that's what has led into modern receptions of her tale, and women in particular, in all their wonderfully diverse forms, um are seeking to give her her voice. So, um in the ancient literature, um the gorgon is first mentioned in our uh um text that has survived anyway, um, in Homer's Iliad. So she's not named as Medusa, but there's mention of the Gorgon. Um and the focus really is on her apotropaic function. So she wards away evil, she is featured on Athena's um Aegis or Aegis um and Agamemnon's uh shield. Then slightly later, we've got what will be more familiar to modern receivers of her myth. So Hesiod, um Ovid, and Pseudo-Apollodorus give uh fairly similar accounts of Medusa's tale, although there are some key differences. Um so essentially Medusa is turned into a monster after either laying um with or being raped um by Poseidon in Athena's temple. Um she becomes uh a monster, she has a petrifying gaze, um snake hair, so anyone that she looks at will turn to stone. Um after a series of events, it's uh Perseus who is tasked with retrieving Medusa's head um by someone who wants to get rid of him so that they can marry his uh his mother. Um Perseus is half god anyway, his father is Zeus, and so he has the help of some of his siblings, so Athena, for example, um, who give him gifts to help him slay Medusa. Um, and these gifts um allow him to avoid her gaze, so he's able to fly, um be invisible, but also via his shield reflection he can gaze at Medusa by avoiding her petrifying gaze. So he um is positioned um in a sort of yeah, powerful position um and able to decapitate her uh and fly off home with her head, and on the way save uh the damsel in distress, Andromeda, who's his virgin maiden, um, and is often presented as the opposite of Medusa. So whereas Medusa has this petrifying gaze and is a threat, um Andromeda is described as having a downcast gaze, she's more passive. And it's important to note that when we're talking about Medusa and her gaze, because power is the gaze in this myth essentially, when it's owned, shall we say, by Medusa or wielded by Medusa, it's a threat. When Perseus has the dominant gaze, and when he cuts off Medusa's head and uses it as his own, so he appropriates the gaze of Medusa, it's seen in a more positive light. So here we can take away this idea of active woman threat, passive woman good, uh, to be saved by the active male. So there's lots that comes through in the Medusa. I'll call it the Medusa myth, even though it's not particularly her myth in the ancient literature. Um, but yeah, it's really rich for analysis. So that's it in a in a nutshell, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

And it's interesting, and thank you for that. And it's interesting how um such a well, obviously she's mentioned a number of tales, as you said, but not too in any great detail in how so much can be left to the imagination in terms of who she was and um how she became what she did. With that, um there are there are other there are newer ways and more modern ways of looking at Medusa. I mean, can you give us an example of some of those, especially in terms of um her relationship with Athena? Was Athena protector? Was she, you know, was she because I mean I have my own theory. My theory is because but I love Athena. My theory is that Athena um kind of protected her and gave her power, but other people might not think of that. So, what are your thoughts or or what's going on in academia in terms of the way people are thinking about that?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Interesting. So there are different ways of reading this relationship between Athena and um Medusa. I think your take is really interesting, and I can assume you might follow the idea that maybe Athena gave Medusa this power so that she could ward away anyone who attempts to violate her again.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Yes, yes, that's correct, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah, whereas others might read Athena as taking more of a masculine role, so she is um a virgin goddess um born from Zeus, um, and some might read her as taking the side of uh patriarchy and victim blaming. Um so I don't think there's a correct way of viewing the myth. Um, and that's what you know is at the heart of everything we do, right? It's open to interpretation, and if you're a fan of Athena, you'd be a fan of Athena. Um yeah. So particularly when we're talking about reception, right? So I I I sort of like this idea of Athena being a being a protector, um, because the other version isn't as appealing. But I think um just to jump in, um, because I think it's quite important, something that I didn't mention earlier when I was talking about Medusa in ancient literature, and it feeds into your second question about how she's received in you know the modern day. Um I mentioned that there's no one version of Medusa's myth. So we've got like the typical version of Medusa being a monster, but there are so many other versions too, and I just wanted to mention two here. So there are some ancient authors that make no mention of her visual monstrosity or her petrifying ability. Interesting. Yeah, so Diodora Siculus, for example, so a Greek historian, ancient Greek historian, viewed Medusa as an African queen. It's still got this mythical element because she is viewed as um a leader of an all-female race called the Gorgons.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Oh, how fascinating!

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Right? Um, and enemies of the Amazons. So still the Amazons were like monstrous women anyway, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah, they were, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, so um they symbolized uncontrolled female nature, there was a threat to the um constructed order of society that was dominated by men. Um like the Bacchae. Exactly, right? So um she's still like a monstrous woman, but then we've got one from um Pausenaeus, so an ancient Greek traveller uh and writer who tried to rationalise various myths. Um and he proposed that Medusa was not a mythical snakehead monster, but a Libyan queen, who Perseus still comes across and defeats um and displays her head, um, but she is not a monster, she's more like a historical figure in a way. So that's really interesting. And it relates to your second question, um, because Medusa is firmly situated within Africa, right? Yes, that's led many, um, particularly black women um to identify with Medusa. Um, and there's there's so much I could mention on that. Um, and yeah, because it speaks to this no matter where um Medusa is found in the ancient literature, she does tend to be located somewhere in Africa, as does Andromeda. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

So where is she mentioned in the in the older myths, especially those pertaining to Perseus? Where does he actually go to slay her?

SPEAKER_00 19:19

So it changes. Um in Ovid, for example, um Perseus is flying over Libya. Okay, and through to Ethiopia, where Andromeda is. Uh and when he's flying over Libya, her Medusa's blood drops and turns to snakes when it hits the ground. And so that was a way of explaining why there are so many snakes in Libya. Um interesting. So her exact location is um difficult to pinpoint, and especially when we're talking about Libya and Ethiopia, the ancient sense of where Ethiopia was does not correspond to where the modern country is. That's right, yeah. Very much in Africa, um, but not the exact location. Um but like I said, that's led to so many interesting um readings and new narratives that are coming from black female creatives because of Medusa and because of Andromeda. So there's an identification actually with both.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Can you give us um any examples of those?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Yeah, sure. Please. Yeah. So um one of the case studies I was looking at when I was uh doing my research is Rihanna. So 2012 or 2013, um Rihanna worked with Damien Hirst and was on the front cover of GQ. She's a topless Medusa, so it's a heavily sexualized image. However, the fact that you have a black female pop star as Medusa is significant because there is such a long history between black women and the Gorgon. So that all stems from, yes, Medusa being associated with Africa. However, um Medusa has also been used as a racial slew directed at black women because of a perceived similarity between Afro-textured hair and snakes. No, that's so horrible. Right, so it's derogatory.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Um, there's a brilliant poet who's based in London, Dorothy is smart, um, and she has written poems um that explores this relationship between her so-called like Medusa self, because she was called Medusa when she was younger and growing up in London. Uh shame, in a way, uh, surrounding that. But then there's a really beautiful. Progression throughout her poetry that leads to her fully owning her Medusa self and using Medusa as a form of empowerment.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

I was gonna say, yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's amazing. What's her name? Darthea Smart, is it?

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Darthea Smart, yes, a smart. So yeah, there's a sense of empowerment there, and Dorothea Smart's not the only person to do this. There's such a rich history there, and so you cannot look at um Rihanna's front cover image and just dismiss it as an image for a straight, predominantly white male gaze. There is something much deeper going on there, um, uh, and something that can be really empowering. Um, if I may, there's another just brilliant um art collective that so they are called Yitrader. And do you mind if I just double check that just in case No, of course. Yeah, I don't want to make any mistakes because I want to give them full credit. Yeah, so Yitrader. Um, so they're an art collective based in Ethiopia. They um read the myth of Medusa and pulled out Andromeda specifically, because Andromeda is located in Ethiopia, right? As we've mentioned, rather that's Ethiopia in the modern day, that's besides the point. Because what the art collective are highlighting is that receptions of Andromeda, particularly in the Renaissance period and depictions of Andromeda, she's white. You know, when we're talking about race in the ancient world, the ancients care as much as we do about race. Who knows? Who knows? Um but I think what's essential here, and it's what Yetrada are pointing to, is that essentially the ancient world has been appropriated as the history of white people.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Especially uh Western mythol, especially when it comes to Western mythology or proposed Western mythology like Medusa and Perseus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Exactly, exactly. Um so they um create digital art. Um, so they're not sort of static images, they move.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Oh, lovely.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

And so they want to show the myth as if you haven't seen all these different perceptions of Andromeda. You're reading the text, the ancient text for the first time, and you would immediately assume that she's not a white woman, and so they depict her as not a white woman. So they're sort of reclaiming her African ancestry for her, which is just incredible. Um, and yeah, so really important work and makes a really important point. And those are just some uh black creatives that I've mentioned. There are so many others that are doing just as important work um who are out there and whose um yeah, work should be should be highlighted.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

No, thank you for that. And if it's okay with you, if you don't mind sending those links to me, I'm gonna put them in with the description because I think it's really important to see what other people are doing, especially creatives in terms of you know bringing reimagining the mythology.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, it would be a pleasure to share that with you.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

Thank you. Um and on the and it's interesting because I'm I'm wondering if you can highlight or maybe shed some light on this concept of Medusa, because we're just talking about Medusa in terms of her looks, right? Why? Why are we always just focused on Medusa and her looks and nothing else about the individual?

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Oh, that's a really interesting question.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Sorry, I shouldn't, I just thought I was just thinking about it because you're going on about because you were talking about really interesting things, and like it's all about her looks, it's all about you know the male gaze and the female gaze. You know, what about Medusa as you know, the full embodiment of who she was?

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Interesting. I guess we focus so much on the gaze because of course she has a petrifying gaze and that can reveal so much. Um and I think what's really interesting when we're talking about Medusa, especially if we're focusing on her looks, and we'll get to sort of like what she symbolizes apart from the visual aspect in a sec. But um what's really interesting with Medusa is in the modern conscience, we just view Medusa as snake hair, usually um either fully monstrous or an attractive female face, right? Yeah, very true. If we think of the Clash of the Titans remake, um Uma Themen and Percy Jackson, they're really attractive women.

unknown 26:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

So it's either or I feel it's either like the monstrous woman or super attractive actress playing her. Uh but the snake hair is always present. But that wasn't the case in the ancient world. So if we're talking pre-classical period, you've got Medusa with boar tusks, she's got like a lolling tongue. Um the snakes appear somewhere, but they're usually tied as a belt around her waist. Okay. It's not necessarily her hair. Um during the classical period, she becomes, I think it's Dunstan Lowe, he might have sort of essentially coined this, but um, sort of maidenized monsters appear, so they become more feminine in the classical period. Right. Those grotesque versions of Medusa and other monsters still exist, but we have this new way of presenting monsters. Uh so when we think about the sirens and sphinx and everything, they become sort of attractive female faces. Who are tempted who are temptuous. Right, exactly. Um, so many academics have viewed this as highlighting and emphasizing the gender of these monsters because they're sort of more tricky adversaries than male monsters, which we do have, of course, we've got male monsters. Uh think of the minotaur, centaurs, and so on. But the female monsters are a little bit more tricky to defeat. For example, Medusa and of course avoiding her gaze, right? Is this like an early version of the femme patal that comes later? The the sort of like it speaks to yes, um, the visual monstrosity, but women's internal monstrosity and sense of deception. And that is something that really does continue in the Renaissance where Medusa is very much the snake-haired Medusa because it's a really cool image, but it also became tied to Christianity.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Yeah. Of course, and the snakes and Satan, and yeah, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

And so Medusa sort of come becomes like this Eve-type figure, so this temptress, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Perfect amalgamation between Satan and the female.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Yeah, exactly. You know, evil is symbolized by a woman. And so when we think of, you know, the Renaissance Medusa, and indeed, you know, many classical myths are are used, but they become sort of amalgamated with Christian values, and there are so many examples. You know, if you go to Florence, you know, it's hard to avoid Medusa. Yeah. Um she becomes this feminine uh monster who could um prevent the good Christian man from following his path. And so when we think of like Cellini holding aloft the head of Medusa, just such a violent statue. So he's like, you know, he's standing on Medusa's decapitated body.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

It's you know it's horrific, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

It is, yeah, and it's really graphic, right? Um seeing the sort of entrails of Medusa seeping out, um, that is a strong image of man overcoming evil, which is here symbolized as woman and as Medusa. Uh, of course, we could read more deeply into this. We've got another other examples from the Renaissance, such as Caravaggio, um, and we could go a little bit more deeply rather than just focusing on the Christian aspect. Um, you know, we could take a psychoanalytic approach, we could take Julia Costava. Um, I don't think we'll all go down that uh tonight.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

If we have a few hours, we can do that.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Yeah, well, if you're interested, anyone that's listened, you know, read Capital Visions by Julia Costava and the severed head as the sublimation of the separation from the mother and things like that. But I think fundamentally the reason why we focus on Medusa as an image is because she's such a strong image, right? Um, and that's why she has survived and continues to be shown time and time again for thousands of years, and in the modern day, you know, it's not just symbolising um a monster, she her image is used for multiple things, and that could be affluence and luxury with Versace, for example. So I think that's why there's such a focus on her looks, and you know, we could take that a step further. Recently on TikTok, loads of people at the moment are getting Medusa tattoos. Oh really? Yeah, yeah. So this was trending on TikTok, um, and it was for those who are survivors of sexual assault. Oh, yeah, so you know, I'm sure multiple uh many people get tattoos of Medusa for many reasons, um, but that's why there's been sort of um resurgence of yeah, Medusa tattoos, because it yeah, it's for survivors of sexual assault.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

So we're seeing Medusa being used now as well, even more so as kind of an image of empowerment.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Exactly. Yeah, that's yeah, yeah. Um and yeah, so you know, I mentioned Cellini earlier on. Um, we also have a statue that Gabati um created, um was displayed in uh New York. So there's this inversion, and you've got uh a nude Medusa who holds the head of Perseus aloft.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Um I've seen that, it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

It's a striking image, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah, it really is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Controversial to many. Um, so many women didn't like this image. Um, and it's been used for multiple reasons. Um, so for example, it was um displayed in New York um to make a commentary on Harvey Weinstein and the Me Too movement, um, and women sort of like the tables turning a little bit, um, and male aggressors being punished. A lot of women as well didn't like the statue. Many commented on sort of like her ideal form, um, so devoid of any pubic hair, for example. Um, others didn't like the violence, um, and others also pointed out that yes, Perseus was a male aggressor, but he didn't um rape her, he wasn't the rapist. Yeah, so that had mixed um sort of uh a mixed reception, but again, an example of how Medusa's image is used in various ways. But actually what you mentioned about actually her maybe like her character and her actual identity and her voice, that is given, but I think there is more emphasis on her as a symbol, actually. So are we doing that, you know, we can give women a voice via symbols, right? So you don't actually have to speak in order for your voice to be heard, because women are using Medusa to display aspects of their identity.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Um so that's an interesting one, but you know, if we're thinking about literature, for example, Natalie Haynes Stone Blind, then we have Medusa's actual voice um being heard in sort of like a more literal sense, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah, which is interesting because I've I've always I do always wonder, and it was because I I did read that book actually, it was a good book, um Natalie Haynes book. And um I it it's just it seems to me like it would be I I do wonder that just obviously using her using her image as for empowerment and for other means is is you know, I'm I'm for all for, but I do wonder that if we need to almost use all of her in order to kind of embody what a true woman is in many respects, you know, not just her her ferocity and her her gaze, but you know, her beauty, but also her um her inner voice and her inner character. And what those inner, you know, what that inner character uh was thinking or what it was doing.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Right? Yeah, I like that because empowerment doesn't have to be just sort of like a badass woman, right? Empowerment comes in many forms, silence can be a form of empowerment in a way. Um, so I think that's really interesting, and it's just actually made me think about um Donatella Versace actually, and she released a series called Medusa Power Talks. Oh, yeah, which was really cool. Uh so it's on YouTube, uh, and it was just a space where um women were able to make their voices heard and share their stories. Um, so we have to you know emphasise yes, Medusa, the symbol of empowerment, they can view her as a badass woman or like a really cool sort of monstrous female. Um but yeah, empowerment comes in different forms, and that could just simply be having the Medusa power talks and actually listening to women.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Absolutely, because I mean some of the stories of obviously you touched on a little bit, tell us of um Medusa as a priestess, is that correct? A priestess of Poseidon. Oh no, Priestess of Athena.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Athena, yes. Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, there's an interesting um bit of the some versions of a myth. Medusa is heard in a way um via um an instrument. And in the um myth, it's sort of um the sound of her kin to us, the sound of her scream, uh, and it startles Athena. Um but yeah, again, this is just this lack of actual speech um that we that we hear from from Medusa.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

And what can you tell us about? Obviously, they're the Gorgons, so uh not just looking at it from the kind of uh it was very interesting, the kind of historical approach that you looked at in terms of the non-myth. But her sisters, can you tell us a little bit about where do they come in to play, especially if she let's let's take the myth per se as her being this priestess who was violated in Athena's temple and then turned into Medusa. Where do these sisters, these other gorgons, come in?

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Yeah, so um this idea that they are sisters that I don't know why, but in narratives, when we're talking about women and sisterhoods, it always seems to come in threes.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

So when we're talking about the Gry or the Um the Gorgons, or even like Macbeth and the Witches, right? It always seems to be in threes. So Steno and Uiel um are Medusa's um sisters. It's not suggested that they have the same petrifying gaze as uh Medusa, so they are less of a threat. Uh, in many versions of the myth, when um Perseus is sneaking into their into their home or lair, um he kills Medusa while she's asleep, um, and so avoids the wrath of her of his sisters. I think it's suggested that maybe then they have this more of a protective role over Medusa, right? And that certainly comes through in Natalie Haynes Stone Blind, um, but again, they are sort of um sidelined and just mentioned as quite briefly um in the tale, and again, we don't truly get a sense of who Steno and Yui are. Yeah, which is interesting, um, and focus in the modern day seems to be on Medusa. Um, you rarely sort of hear about her two sisters.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

I wonder how many people actually know about them.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah, well, you know, when I was doing my research, so I was my focus is looking at pop music um and how women, female pop stars, um have either become Medusa in their work, or are read as Medusa. Oh, yeah, so what I was looking at is um, and maybe we can touch on this in in in in a sec.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Um Lady Gaga adopting the monsters to um create a bond with her fans, her little monsters. Some of those fans have read her as Medusa. Okay, interesting. So clearly, Medusa's transformed from yes, a monster had that had protective qualities once you decapitated her and displayed her somewhere, but she's viewed very much in a she's a negative female monster.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

But by fans reading Lady Gaga as Medusa in an empowering sense, clearly there's been this transformation, and now Medusa in the modern conscious is viewed more as a positive, a good monster. Um, but anyway, when I was doing my research, one of the images came it came across, and this goes to show, right, that modern receptions of classical myth are not just people who have just heard about Medusa and have just chosen to, hey, I'll write a story on her, or I'll or I'll choose, you know, to create an image of my favourite uh pop star as Medusa.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

You know, we need to give credit to modern receivers of the ancient world. And there was one image of um Lady Gaga, Nicki Minaj, and there was another pop star, and I can't remember who it was. That's gonna annoy me. But anyway, they were all depicted as Medusa and her Gorgon sisters. Oh wow! Right? So people are engaging with the myth because, like you said, I you know, I doubt it's not common knowledge that there are these other two Gorgons mentioned. So someone has knowledge of the ancient world and has chosen to present um modern pop stars as such, um, which is just brilliant. Um, so yeah, they are often forgotten, but there's an awareness that they do exist.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Yeah, but they're immortal as well, aren't they? Meant to be immortal, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Yes, okay. So um very much mystical figures.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Oh, that's uh and with your own research on that. Can you give us any uh other examples? Because you gave some great examples. You gave Lady Gaga, you gave Rihanna. Are there any other and obviously Nicominage and things, but are there any other examples of Medusa being used within popular culture, say, and music with over the last, I don't know, 20 years or something?

SPEAKER_00 41:55

You know what? As soon as I've mentioned this, I promise you you will find so many examples. So I found it really hard just to I chose uh four women as um case studies. So I chose uh Rihanna Azealia Banks.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Uh in Ice Princess. She is um a hybrid between the Snow Queen and Medusa. So she doesn't turn her foes into stone, they turn to ice.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Um, and it's sort of like she's like a cyborg as well, so super futuristic. Um, obviously Lady Gaga, and then I had Madonna. Um I was wondering about Madonna, actually. Yeah, so my focus was, you know, yes, women who choose to become Medusa, but also, like I said, women who are read as Medusa as well. Madonna is one of them. So there's uh a comedian called Julie Brown, and she parodied um Madonna's um Blonde Ambition uh sort of documentary where she documented the Blonde Ambition talk. Um just called Truth or Dare, and she parodied it as uh Medusa Dare to be truthful, and she was mocking Madonna as sort of I think she's pointing to how Madonna fixates the gaze of her audience as if she is Medusa, right? Right, yeah, that's fine because she will do anything essentially to make sure that all eyes are on here. It's a tactic used as a woman in the music business, particularly in the 80s onwards, to survive.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Um, but also I think there's a really interesting link there between um uh Madonna's hair at the time, which is sort of like Marlene Dietrich slash Monroe and uh Medusa in a way, but yeah. Um so those are my four case studies, but there are so many other examples. So, you know, my favourite singer of all time is St. Vincent, um, here. From Ass Seduction. She's got like hands on her head. It's Medusa-esque.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

For the front cover of one of their albums, so Paris, they've got the lead singer as a decapitated head, so a play on Cellini statue. We've also got Annie Lennox with the Medusa album. Oh, yeah, good point. Yeah. Yeah, so you know, there are so many, and that's not even touching on um sort of dance music like Gorgon City and so on. So there are so many to choose from. And particularly when we're talking about rap, Medusa is used all the time because I think of that association between Medusa and Versace and sort of luxury as well.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

And often uses this beautiful woman who has like stunned someone into um being infatuated. Um so yeah, she is she pops up again and again, but I think the four case studies I've chosen are the richest for analysis.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

Um what made you choose them? I mean, did you just have to do tons and tons and tons of years and years of research and then go, oh, these are the the four? Did you choose them because of uh your own interests?

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Or yeah, yeah, well, a bit of both, really. Um I think they are so Rihanna and Azealia Banks were just a no-brainer because they are just yeah, you know, such obvious examples in modern pop culture. Um, Lady Gaga and Madonna, I chose because their music videos are akin to mini films. True.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Oh, that's a good point. They are, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Yeah, they put so much work into the visual aspect of their performance. Um, and you know, Lady Gaga is compared to Madonna time and time again, which is just lazy. Um obviously it takes inspiration, she takes inspiration for Madonna, Madonna's amazing, um, but she's very much her own pop star. Absolutely. Um, but the two of them engage with monstrous narratives. So Madonna, particularly in the 80s, um, her music videos, so when we think of uh Material Girl, um Open Your Heart, Um Express Yourself, they all play with internal forms of monstrosity or the monstrous feminine because she sort of plays to the trope of the femme fatale old films. Um, so you think of like Gentlemen Befair Blondes or uh Metropolis and The Vamp. Um, so there's a great deal of intertextuality there, and she takes inspiration from so many different areas, but she does it knowingly, so she's knowingly playing with male fears of the deceptive woman of films um in bygone years, but she's doing something different with it, and she's using it to fixate the gaze. Um so she's using tropes in a subversive manner, and I think that's why Julie Brown read her as Madonna, um, but I'm taking it a step further and exploring exactly how the dynamics of the gaze work with Madonna and how she is appealing not just to male fears and desires, but she is using codes in her videos to broaden her appeal, uh, particularly to a queer audience. Offering a working class reading as a woman from New York, who wasn't from a privileged background, who uses her image, not in a negative sense, as woman as just object on screen, but as a way to further her career. Yeah. Um, which you know, we and that's why I emphasised throughout my work is that women as object, we're moving away from Laura Mulvey, right? Who was just a pioneer and was superb. Um, but now we need to move away from this idea that woman on screen is just an objectified image. It's far more complicated than that, especially when women are constructing their own image and engaging with yes, past tropes that have been constructions of men and are one-dimensional, women are presenting themselves, um, particularly using the monsters to do so. And what does that reveal about their identity? And what does that reveal about the spectator who is looking upon them and receiving the image?

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

So it's it's much more complicated than that. And the same for uh Lady Gaga. So I applied a Medusa lens to read what was happening with Lady Gaga. I read her as a modern Medusa who again I had to use psychoanalysis, but I was stepping away from feminist film theory back 70s, 80s. Um, they tended to use Medusa as given by Freud.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

So they were reading women more as passive images on screen. Um, you know, there's a bit more that goes into it than than that. And again, these women are just pioneers and their work was so needed. Um, but we have we've m we've moved on, right? Um, and so I was arguing that actually Lady Gaga as a sort of like Medusa figure, is not Freud's Medusa who just symbolizes male male fear and castration anxiety. I was taking Barbara Creed's reading of Medusa, which is found in the monstrous feminine, which shows the subversive nature of horror for women.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

And and reading Medusa and Lady Gaga as castrators, um, who are given an active position and who become, I feel like I've said empowerment far too many times during this.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Oh, I have as well. It's okay. It's a great, you know, when you when you got the word, you might as well use it, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Yeah, so sorry for being boring, but yeah, again, um, yeah, becoming um monsters in an empowering sense. So taking uh the monster that was evident in horror, that was something that resembled just male male fear, but actually taking it from a female perspective now and using it to um sort of bite back um essentially uh and and pose a threat, but also present Lady Gargo as a monster, as a maternal figure. So I was focusing on her as early in her career before she becomes mother monster, yeah, turns the monster into something um positive, and then she later becomes mother monster and more of um a maternal safe place, and that's how she creates this bond with her fans through the monstrous, yeah. Because in there, in in Lady Gaga, they can find someone who is a protector, particularly for her queer fans, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Elsewhere elsewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, I'm I might throw a bit of a spatter on the works for you. So all right. We've talked, we we've spoken a lot about women, of course. Yeah. What is do you do you have any can you give us an idea of any modern male reception? Male receptions of Medusa.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Yeah, so male receptions of Medusa from the work I have done. Um, so when I'm talking about a queer audience, I'm also talking about sort of non-binary spectators, right? So I'm very much focused on moving away from like a sex binary that existed in film theory um years ago and now moving on to more of um sort of like a diverse fan base that we're engaging with images. But when we're talking about um men in particular, um some of the particularly when I was looking at Lady Gaga actually, and fan art that was created um by male fans, so people who explicitly identify as male, um yeah, so they've interpreted Medusa, uh Lady Gaga as Medusa, and again it's very much an empowering sense, um, which is amazing because when we look elsewhere, for example, in politics, especially if you've read you know Mary Beard, um, who discusses Hillary Clinton uh being depicted held aloft by Trump. Um of course that's a misogynistic retelling of Medusa, but that's not the whole story. So we do have male creators like Damien Hirst as well, as part of Lady Um Rihanna's um front cover image. So we've got a lot of men who are engaging with Medusa in a feminist sense as well, um, which is just amazing to see. And I think it points to yeah, I speak a lot about uh women and and queer um people, but uh men are engaging with Himmeth as well, and aren't just identifying with Pesias, thankfully.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Yeah, no, that's good because it it's um I just cause because obviously we're talking about we're talking about the queer community, but I was quite interested because for so long the um this idea of Medusa, we can say, was created. I don't say created, but yeah, it was this this idea, this image, this modern image of her, maybe we're talking about 20, 30 years ago, is created by men, you know, within the Renaissance and and even further back as you yourself stated. So it's interesting to see a shift from that perspective as well, so a healthier shift uh in terms of it's not all about just um her being this kind of um temptuous feminine monster, but something a bit greater.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Yeah, and I think that's the beauty of Medusa, and that's why I chose Medusa as a lens to explore how people are engaging with monstrous narratives in the modern day because something bigger is happening at the moment with monstrous narratives, right? Uh I think people are very aware that the monster has symbolized the marginalized, the oppressed, and they're now reclaiming the monster, um, whether that's like physical um sense of the monstrous or otherwise. Um but with Medusa, because she's so ambivalent, and because there's this duality of Medusa even back in the ancient literature, so in Euripides um Ion, we've got here blood having protective but also fatal consequences.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Right, yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

So so many different ways you can receive Medusa. Um, and we can see that we know when I'm talking about women, and I'll just talking about women as a homogenous group.

SPEAKER_02 55:11

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Different women with different lived experiences are identifying with different aspects of Medusa's story. Maybe that could be from her being located in Africa, or whether that's because she is um a survivor of rape, and many women identify with her because of that, or because of her as a monstrous mother, like Lady Gaga, and again having this sort of protective element. And so, even though that's not part of my research per se, I can imagine many men feel similar as well. Um so it's brilliant that we're moving away from this idea that only women can identify with female images. I'm sure a lot of men can identify with um parts of Medusa's story as well.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Uh thank you so much. Um, there is one um oh yes, there is one thing I wanted to ask you now as well, because you touched on it, and we only have a couple minutes, but you touched on it briefly at the start. Um, why do you think now of all times that Medusa is becoming um this kind of um ob I'm gonna say object, because we're talking about her not being an object, but for the sake of the for the sake of my question, an object of empowerment now.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Yeah, so I think this has a lot to do with digital platforms. Um access to her story and different receptions of her story can be um more easily accessed. And I think a lot of creators of big TV series are taking note of this as well. Because feminist receptions of Medusa have been you know around for a long time. Think of Helen Zoo, right?

SPEAKER_03 57:04

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

Um but now I think because more people are aware of how she can be used as an empowering figure, people, producers or creators who are involved with big projects such as the Percy Jackson TV series or the new version of Charmed, they're aware of these new narratives. And so we see different versions of Medusa shown in their shows as well. Um so for example, when we're talking about charmed, Medusa is there and she actually tins so she it's mentioned that she was violated and she tins those, she petrifies those who refuse to look at her, she wants to be seen, um which is really interesting because she wants you know, we talked about you know, you can make your voice be heard via your image.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

I think that's what it speaks to. So she wants to be, she wants to be heard, she wants to be seen.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

And I think that's very much these writers being aware that a specific audience is going to be watching charmed, it's gonna be a slightly younger audience who are more likely to engage with the various versions of Medusa online. If we presented a super monstrous version of Medusa, I don't think that would sit very well with the audience.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

No.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

Um, and we see that with um the new PC Jackson series, which is a stark contrast between Uma Thurman in the in the film and Medusa in the TV show. Um so yeah, I think now is the time, especially the way Medusa's been used with the Me Too movement, and there's so much work still to be done. Um so I think yeah, that's why Medusa refuses to die in the ancient world and continues to live on in the modern day.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

Gina, thank you so much. This has been such a fascinating conversation, and there's so much more to talk about. And I do hope that in the future we can get you on again to talk about some of this stuff. So thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

It's been a true joy. Thank you so much, Danny.

SPEAKER_02 58:59

Oh, it's been great, thank you so much. That was episode nine of Myths, Games and Meaning. Thank you for joining us. If you'd like to see our past episodes and where we post this episode and any future information, you can find us on mythsgamesandmeanings.com. You can also find me on Instagram at Myths Games and Meaning and Dr. Gina Bevan at Queer Narratives. I hope you enjoyed yourself. It was lovely speaking to you, and I look forward to bringing you something within the next few weeks. Take care of the