Big Partnership's Zoe Ogilvie: Unpacking a Career in Communications

In this episode of Taproom Talks Kenny Dooley is joined by Zoe Ogilvie of Big Partnership. Zoe, who recently semi-retired, shares her journey in marketing and communications, from her early days in Paris, to establishing the Aberdeen office of Big Partnership. 

She discusses the challenges and triumphs of growing a successful agency, the importance of company culture, leadership through communication, and the evolution of the PR and marketing industry. Zoe also touches on her passion for football and her role as a director for Aberdeen Football Club, as well as her love for water skiing. 

This episode offers valuable insights into building a career, fostering a strong team, and adapting to industry changes, all while maintaining a personal touch and a "be nice to know" philosophy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hi, today I'm with Zoe Ogilvy, Big Partnership. Zoe, if you can just tell us who you are and what you do.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Zoe Ogilvy, I until recently, because now I'm semi-retired, I used to run a big partnership, a marketing and communications agency, and uh been around for uh probably too long to that too long to to to mention in Aberdeen.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

So but before you set up Big Partnership, what what did you do there? How did you end up in Fiara Market?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Um yeah, good question. Um not by the usual channels. Um I think I went to school in Aberdeen, Aberdeen, uh born and bred, uh went to school in Aberdeen, and that at that time back in the day, you didn't have great career advice. It was if you were in sort of the A stream uh as they had it then, you you were going to be a doctor, a lawyer, or an accountant, okay, or potentially go and marry a rich farmer.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

It was That was Aberdeen.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

That was that was the Aberdeen career career advice. Um and so I I didn't didn't want to be, didn't want you know, any of those routes. I originally wanted to be a vet. Sorry, no. Um and I I originally wanted to be a vet, but given that I was absolutely useless at sciences, there was no chance of that happening. Um I was good at languages, so I kind of I thought I'll eventually go and study languages, yeah, but I decided instead to take a year out. Um, and the idea was that I went to France for six months and Germany for six months because French and German at that time were the two languages that I studied. Um, but my six months in France turned into over six years. Wow. And I went to Paris and I just I just love fell in love with the city.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

So you're working there?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yep. So it starts started off. So despite having an A in Mahai or French, um when you actually get to the country and you have to use your French, you're like, you just realise that you're not very you're not very good at this. It and it takes, I reckon it probably took me about six months to get through it.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Uh where you stop translating in your head and actually thinking. Um so I did sort of work in a tourist, uh touristy souvenir type shop.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

These were your these were your very first jobs?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Well, I I'd worked in bars and restaurants in Aberdeen before, um, but so and worked in a couple of restaurants um in Paris. And one of the restaurants I worked in, and my former my the guy who became my boss came in for dinner one night. He was celebrating because he just left a great big uh marketing agency in France uh to set up his own boutique agency. Um and he basically offered me a job uh on the spot that that evening.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

So that was your first news at the market?

SPEAKER_00 2:43

So my first uh job in marketing in a completely different language in in Paris. Uh and we had great clients. We worked with the likes of Air France, Kawasaki. Um we worked with a company called Po Clan that eventually became Case IH, which the agricultural people listening to this podcast will recognise as one of the biggest uh manufacturers of farming uh machinery. So I did end up with a farming link.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

But that's and they're these are these are high-end clients. So you're you're right in working with big, big brands. So that's not the norm for a lot of PR and marketing companies.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Uh no, but I think being based in a city, yeah, uh whether it's you know whether it's uh London, Paris, New York, wherever, you you you probably are going to get an opportunity to work to work with the big the the big brands. So yeah, so I know more probably in French about combine harvesters than I'd ever before.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

So that so for for Paris six years, you you then got involved with a marketing company. How long were you there?

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Um so I was with the company for just over five five years. Right. Um and just learnt a huge amount from my boss at the time. Uh he was he was that a big company with lots of staff or it no, it was it was just a startup. And um, I mean, probably when I left there were about eight of us.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Okay. Um still small business.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

But it was great, great agency, great grounding for what I eventually uh went on to do. But then I decided to come home uh for various reasons. Um and of course I arrived in Aberdeen in the middle of an oil and gas downturn. Yeah. Um, really struggled to get a job, became totally demotivated by the considered on back to to Paris? Uh no, no, I don't think I don't think I did. I was I was determined um to get a job in Aberdeen. I I obviously applied to a lot that there were a lot more French oil and gas related companies in Aberdeen at that time, applied to all them because I thought I'm bilingual now, I've got an opportunity, but you just get so demotivated by people not even getting back to you.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Um about when you're putting in CVs. And and that's the one thing that I am now scrupulous about uh in all the jobs I've had. If somebody applies to me for a job, if it's on spec uh or if it's part of a formal process, I will always respond to people because I remember how how awful it was at the at the time. Yeah. So I struggled on for a little while and I thought I'm not signing on. I was determined I wasn't going to sign on. My dad at the time uh worked for tenants uh in Aberdeen, so he ran a number of pubs, um, pubs like the Covenanters in Kingcore in Murdows.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Um so yeah, I went and worked.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

So you worked in a few bars?

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Yep. So I went and worked uh in Murdo's at the time. I used to say that it was great for the thighs because you got you got a good workout ducking behind the bar to miss the flying ashtrays. Um and it probably is a good grounding for for PR and communication, having to stop getting speaking to people, you know. Speaking to people from from all uh all walks of life. I actually I I enjoyed I enjoyed the the bar work. You don't want to hear I'll I'll easily do that. And as my as I said, my hidden talent is being able to memorize huge rounds of drinks because the thing that frustrates me the most is that when you're out in a night out and the bar they come back and they're saying, What vod can diet coke? and they go away and do that, and then they want to just give all the right do all the drinks at one at once. Um so yeah, so yeah, and then uh I eventually uh applied for the role of public affairs manager at Aberdeen and Chamber of Commerce.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Um, and I will always say that that organisation is one of the best places to work because you get you get connected into what's going on in Aberdeen uh and and making contacts. Yeah. Um it's a phenomenal platform for doing that.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

We had David Sherrett on the podcast and he worked there as well. And he was he was very much the same view.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

It was a great place to work. And when I worked there, I was I was fortunate again with with with my boss uh in that the chief executive at the time, he he very much just let me get on, get on with things. And um, so this was early but '92. So the chamber was just kind of emerging from being this kind of sleepy old boy network club into into what not to what it is now today, yeah. Although it's progressed you know hugely and positively since I left. Um, but you know, we were able to do things that had never been done by a chamber before. Um when I'd left Paris, business breakfasts were all the rage. Yeah. So yeah, reintroduced the business breakfasts and uh still going today. And they're still going today, and lots of other organisations then copied, uh then copied that. Um we we bid for and hosted the British Chambers of Commerce annual conference. So it's probably one of the biggest events that that that I'd ever been uh been involved in. Um there were lot lots of things. So yeah, I have uh a huge debt of gratitude to the the Chamber of Commerce because it was you know, I got you get you get involved in so many different aspects of of the economy uh in the city and you meet you meet so many so many people and then also people know you.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah, that's it. So building that network.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

You know, people a lot of people still say to me, Oh, you seem to know everyone in Aberdeen, Zoe, but a lot of that stems from the chamber.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yeah. So then it gives you credibility. Yeah. So for there, for the chamber to big partnerships. So how did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

So I was headhunted from the chamber to set up the Aberdeen office of a UK-wide PR consultancy. So I did that for that's probably about three years, I think. Um, and in the same way as I've been influenced by good bosses.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Yeah, you've been in voice before.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

I've been influenced by bad by by by bad bosses. And and I think I met my uh Neil and Alec, who became my my partners in in Big Partnership, met them at this uh agency. Um and we did what people always do. If you're a bit disgruntled with uh an agency, you say, Why are we not doing this for ourselves? So so we left and um and set up so Alec and Neil actually founded Big. Right. Um I came came to it later, mainly because I was pregnant at the time. So I uh I took took my maternity leave and and then set up the Aberdeen office of Big, probably about two years after uh Big Partnership had had started out. Um and we grew it from the very early days to to what it is today. So probably about a hundred hundred staff uh today with offices in Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Manchester.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yeah. Massive.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

And an integrated communications agency. So we were very much a media relations uh organization when we started.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

How how easy was it to get started at that time?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Um I think I think it was it was yeah, I it was fair, it was fairly easy. As I say, again in in Aberdeen, because I had a reputation, because what I'd done at the chamber was quite visible. Um it was it was fairly easy to to get started and um and attract attract comments.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

What was the landscape like as far as competition then at that time?

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Oh the competition has changed massively over the years. Um we've seen agencies come and go in the the time because we we celebrated our 25th anniversary this uh this year. So yeah, we've seen agencies come and go. Agencies have had to change like like like we have because the the the communications landscape has um has evolved and evolved at pace. Yeah, and so you have to adapt and uh and change.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

What about challenges during that time, that early stage?

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Early stage challenges. I actually think it's uh as you you get bigger that the the challenges the challenges become uh more difficult.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Um I I suppose for for me some of some of the big challenges were things like when people leave, good people that you've you've you you've nurtured and and spent uh time with when they when they leave and and move on. I think initially I used to take that incredibly personally.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Um when we lost a bit of business or didn't win a pitch, uh, I would take it personally. I would I would get incredibly uh upset and depressed about things for for for days. And and I think one, as you get older and more experienced, you you get a thicker skin.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Um but you learn that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

And you have no clients.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Yes, and that that's that's that's that's what happens. You can't you can't win, you can't win at everything. You you can't, you're never going to retain people forever. I mean, we're incredibly proud at BIG that we do have a low turnover of staff. Um uh but but you know that there are people, especially if they come for their first job at BIG, that they want, they want to move on, they want, they want to experience um other uh other things and opportunities. Yeah. And then there are people that aren't a right fit either. And I think I think you know, you and the the the person have have to actually be grown up about it and say, actually this isn't working. Yeah. You know, that person would be better in another in another agency or in another uh role.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yes. So when there was three years at the time when you kicked this off and you joined slightly later, what was what was your role then within that business?

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Uh the well the role at the time was basically to set up and grow and grow Aberdeen. Um and uh yeah, we we did we did grow very, very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

And did you become the main person running that business? Yes, yeah, yes. You were kind of left to go on with it.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Yeah. Oh totally. I mean I I think Alec and Eli we were we had a great relationship um and it's built on mutual respect and trust. Um, you know, I we all had our different uh areas of strength. Yeah um so we would we would always chat things through together. Um I would always you know go to them for for for for help um but they yeah just like yeah left me to left me to to get on with it. And I think I think you know Begging Aberdeen has has yeah, just grown dramatically.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yeah, it's very well known. So when you're 14, 15 year old or something like that, you have an MBO or a I think you guys call it a Vimeo. A vimbo a Vimbo. A Vimbo, yeah. So what was what's the structure of that and how did that go?

SPEAKER_00 13:12

So it's uh say most it it is technically a uh a management buyout, but what what we tried to do was look at how one we could realise the value in the business that we'd invested blood, sweat, and tears into, um, but at the same time in a way that would help us to retain the next all the rising star, the next the next layer that uh of uh tier of people that would that would drive the business forward. So um essentially Alec, Neil and myself sold the business uh to myself uh and the next the next management team and and uh Alan Barr who's who's now the the CEO of BIC. Um and uh that that worked that worked well. Uh we funded the the deal through growth uh through growth in the business. Um and when that deal completed, um not long after that, Neil, who's a little bit older than me, I don't think he'll mind me saying that, he he sort of started to take a bit more of a reduced uh working uh hours and and he's now sort of almost retired out of the business, although he still has uh some shares in the business. Uh Alex still very much involved in the business.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Alan is driving the business uh forward and um And did the did the I don't know the culture or the vision or anything, did anything change then at that point, or is it kind of continuation of what was already going on?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

I th I think that it's that it's very much um you know that the culture was uh is embedded and was set in the in in the business. And um I think sort of laterally with me sort of taking a bit of a step back to semi-retire, yeah. Um, you know, I think that's that's created space and opportunity for our people in Aberdeen. So, you know, I've kind of stepped sideways. Uh Gail, my my colleague, has has stepped up to to to run the Aberdeen office. Yeah. Um and and that's allowed you know other people to to to progress and and and develop. And and somebody asked me the other day how I'm managing to extricate myself from a business that that was that I nurtured. Yeah, and and and and grew and and and was yeah and was you know pretty much everything everything for seven days a week. Yeah. Um but the reason I've been able to do it is because I've got such there's such great people in uh running uh running the Aberdeen office that have needed to get to it.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

To have a really good culture and and have a great team and everything else, it it requires some sort of leadership structure or philosophy. So what how would how did you lead feet all?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

I think uh I would say this as a communications expert, but I think good leadership starts with it starts and ends with with communication.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Um I think you've got you've got to be transparent, transparent um with your uh employees, you've got to be authentic, um, and you've got to be consistent. Um we somebody once said to me that he'd been asked why everyone at Big worked so hard, and he he'd replied saying because they see how hard Zoe works. So I suppose as well, good leadership is about doing the things that lead for the front. Look from the front. You know, I've I don't think I've ever asked anybody to do something that I wouldn't that I wouldn't do myself.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Um and you know, it's for for me it's about everyone being involved, everyone sharing a a common goal of what we want to achieve. Unsurprisingly, to those who know me, uh out with work, then it's big big's always been very much work hard but party hard.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Um I think having a having a having a good environ a good uh working environment, you know, yes, you're you're always you're always gonna get disgruntled. Yes, disgruntled. And you're always you're gonna get people that aren't necessarily gonna always get on with each other. You know, just because you work with somebody doesn't have doesn't mean you have to be best best friends with them. All the time. But yeah, all the time. But you know, I think because we employ like-minded people, yeah that that there is there is normally some some good camaraderie uh around around big. Um and and as I said earlier, it's I've stopped now taking it personally when people when people do move on. And I think what's important, really important, is that you don't burn bridges.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And you know, I think we've got at the moment, we've probably got about four or five clients that have come to us because the person leading the the the marketing or communications or PR is a is a former is a former uh employer. Yeah, and but I think that goes with with clients and and suppliers as well. You you never know where somebody's gonna turn up, so just don't burn bridges.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

And especially in this industry, it's although it's a global industry, it's actually quite small as far as the people in it. But you mentioned they're hiring people. So what's the recruitment process or what do what do you look for in a big employee?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Oh gosh. Um we we we actually did an exercise once where we had the sort of top 20 attributes that we wanted in in our sort of team leaders. Um and I think um uh obviously you want you want a you want a really good ethic because agency life is is notorious for, you know, there are peak there are peaks and troughs, but there are exceptionally busy periods. Um you have to, because you've uh several clients, yeah, um, and most of the time those clients expect you uh to be available to them all the time, uh not to have to share you with other with other uh with other clients. So it is about prioritizing and and juggling and be able be able to to work under under a bit a bit of pressure. Um but also there's creativity has has to come into it. I mean I mean the values in our business are you know, we we didn't want the usual sort of you know, one word like AI generated uh values. We wanted something that again was authentic, true, true to to to big. And you know, our three values are only impact, and that's about basically taking accountability, accountability for your results that you deliver for clients, accountability for how you you you you deal with people, accountability for all your success, but accountability also for failures because we're all human and we do we do make mistakes. Um then um there's bring the magic.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Uh and that's about you know bringing our our proactivity, our creativity, our just our relentless um curiosity about about things to to the to the fore and and to put that into campaigns that that really deliver uh results uh for clients. Um and then the third one, I suppose with linked to the recruitment side in a way is refuse to settle. So we just we don't want people at big to ever settle for second best, and that comes when it's settling for second best in the work that you deliver for clients, but not settling sorry, not settling for second best in uh in the work that you deliver for clients, but not settling for not getting the best member of staff on board either.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Yeah. And um how difficult is it attracting good people then in this industry?

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Again, that goes in peaks and troughs. Um sometimes in Aberdeen it's it's been it's been incredibly difficult um to find people that have the diverse uh skill sets that that that we need. Um often when there's there's been a bit of a downturn and we know that you know Aberdeen goes through the the cycles. Yes, uh, when there's a bit of a downturn, suddenly there are some very good people available that that weren't that weren't available. Um I think all agencies in Aberdeen will suffer from losing you lose people to potentially higher paid jobs um in in the energy industry uh for ex for example.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

So when you bring these people in, how how do you then install Bring the Magic or refuse to settle into them? How do they become because they're gonna progress and become leaders of your business, how do they come in the door and then have that same ethic?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

I'd like to think that as as soon as they come in, even if it's for an interview where they can feel it. Yeah. They can feel it. They you know, I will say culture's uh a culture's way in people are doing doing what they're doing when nobody's watching. Yeah. That they're they're they're they're embedding things about the company that that they they they do it automatically. It's not because they're told to to act or behave like this. But also, as I said earlier, I think it's important that if you you people are leading by example, yeah. Um so that they see that there's a they see that there's a strong worth ethic, they see how important it is to delight clients, they see that it's actually a fun place to work, as well as sometimes really hard. And challenging. It's a fun, it's a fun environment. And they get they get all that. And then hopefully if they get the job and they come and work for us, they become they become part of that culture and they shape the phone.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Is that the same for creating a because it's it's obviously a fast-paced industry and it and I'm guessing within your office where your team is obviously fast paced sometimes as well, and there'll be different companies or different events where there's got to be a collaboration between different people in the business. So how how easy is it to get that collaborative side to it? Because I guess some of these things could be quite um independent roles in writing content or creating video or whatever they graphics, they can be quite independent. So how do you get them to work as sometimes in a team for for one project?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah, no, I think I think there is there is a there's really, really good collaboration across the business. I mean we don't we don't actually work in silos. Um I said earlier that you know we st when we started out we were very much a media relations, then we sort of became sort of full service PR agency, and then over the years we we added digital, we added branding, uh website development, uh just evolved and evolved, etc. So it's it it has evolved, but I think we've managed to do it in a way where team members are are collaborating. And I think because with most of our clients we take that campaign-based approach, then you know a campaign need you you've you're using all the tools that that that you've you've got to deliver the right the right result. So it's it is about that good mix. And you know, sometimes it's not about press release, um, sometimes it's about keyword search, sometimes it's it's about paid social media, a military thing. It's about stakeholder engagement, public affairs. You know, it's it's it's it's looking at what the client's problem or what they're trying to do is understanding that, bringing some insight and and intelligence to to that, then coming up with the overarching strategy, and that strategy then may pull from all the tactics that that we've got within the agency, and different people can work on a campaign at different times. Yeah, you know, so you you it it may be right right at the beginning, you know, it it's maybe going to be more stakeholder engagement. Uh then halfway through the campaign, it might be more about media relations or or or social media that uh so see see for that then when it comes to obviously we had COVID for a couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

I I know from from me personally and just what works for me, I I I like to bounce off other people and I like the creative side to be evolving with two, three, four different people speaking, whether that's video, design, whatever it is, that they all kind of bounce off and I think we have a better product, and I think also we get it quicker. But for you guys, 110 people, how are you dealing with that in different offices? How are you dealing with that out hybrid working?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Uh I mean, I actually think that that COVID in that regard. Um so we were fortunate in that we were already sort of working quite collaboratively across different platforms, you know, whether it be Slack or Teams or whatever, so that when we went into lockdown, we already had all those systems and processes in in in place and and we we we knew the you know we knew the people in the teams. And and um, for example, you at that time the all the digital and branding expertise uh at Crossbeg was in Glasgow and not not not in Aberdeen. So we were already collaborating across uh across office. I think what what COVID also did was you know we we had to really work at that collaboration. Um and what I and I think that we had we had to make it work, we had to make it work remotely. Um I think I think the real downside of of COVID was you know there's there's a there's a whole you know swathe of of of young people who have lost almost two years of their career development because they miss that learning by osmosis that happens when you're when you're in the office.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Even at university at that time, they were never in class, they didn't male classmates.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

You know it's it's listening, it's listening to other people the the older, more experience well sometimes it's not older, the more experienced people in in the office, it's listening to them on the phone, listening to how they they handle things. It's the chat in the kitchen when you're making a cup of coffee, it's it's things like that that you know, unfortunately, as I say, there's a whole swathe of people who have who have missed out on that. And and it was funny because it it was very much our younger staff that wanted us back in the office. And I and you'll remember that you know we c we all came back sort of flexibly uh for a for a while, and then Aberdeen was shut again. Or Scot was it Scotland, I can't remember, was kind of shut down again. And I remember we'd people begging us not to close the office. They really wanted to be in the uh to be in the office.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah, it was a sh shit time. We had we we started to open up. We had taken obviously lots of corporate bookings here for Christmas, um, and then I think 4th of December everything shut back down again. So it was not not great. No, but and just on the culture side then, how do you keep that culture going when and keep that same mindset and mentality when people were now working from home, some people maybe employ people during that time, never been in your office?

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Yeah. Um I mean we did yeah, I think I think we probably did. People did start uh to work for us during uh during that time. I think when when we did when everyone started coming back into the office, you know, for whatever it was, it was like maybe two days a week or what uh whatever people were doing. I think it was we we kept that flex we kept that flexibility uh open. Um we we didn't impose when you had to to to to be in the office. As I say, we were fortunate in in Aberdeen that the majority of people wanted to be in the office. And but also before COVID, we offered that sort of flexibility. Okay. And again, as I say, it comes comes from the top. Again, it was because I often worked took a day uh a week or every so often working from home because I just needed, because we work in an open plan space, I just needed the peace and quiet to either work on a a report or a proposal or something that's quite that that that's quite tough. And I and I like being closing myself away in in order to be to be able to do that. So so we did we we did always have that flexibility. We we had quite a few um before COVID and and still now actually uh people that work part time part-time, yeah um, because they've maybe had school duties and things. So I think having that flexibility already uh meant that you know we were able to maintain it. It was yeah, it was easy, we were ready to maintain it. And I I I do think I do think that flexibility is important. I mean, I I totally understand for the greater good of the economy why you know now businesses want everybody back in the office. Um, but I I think people should want to be in the office. And to get people to want to be in the office, you have to offer them something. And it's about it's about the culture, it's about their colleagues, it's about the collaboration, it's about it's about the it's about the learning and it's about about the environment. Yeah. And and also having a good physical environment is uh is is important.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Yeah, for sure. You're obviously in a nice new sort of converted church. Yeah. I know.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

We're probably the most inappropriate people to be in a church.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

But it looks nice to drive by, you've got a lot of colour and stuff going on in the office.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah, and we I think the the pool table is a big a big thing and everybody's oh you've got a pool table. You've got a dartboard as well. Yeah. You don't want your face, your photograph on the downtown but not good.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

And then uh away from big, just looking at marketing PR as a whole, um, for you joining or working in France, then coming here, chamber, working for a PR company, then big. You must have seen massive changes in the industry from being, I guess, very print billboards and everything else to now being, like you said, very digital focused. So what's been the biggest change you've seen?

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Gosh, um biggest change? I think I think that at the moment uh you know, AI will be in the machine that will will be huge. I I can come back and talk about why I think there's there's danger to our industry in in in in that. Um I think it's how you use it and use it effectively to you know most agencies you get paid for your time. And it's the experience and expertise of the people whose time is spent on that client. That's that's what we're paid to do. So if if using AI creatively and and cleverly um can help you do more menial things better so you've got more time to spend on things that add value to the client, then that's great.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

But I think you know, this when you get people saying, Why do I need a PR agency if Chat GPT can write my press release?

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Well, no. I can download an app, it'll do everything for me.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

And I think so, I think the fundamentals of good communication, good PR, good marketing have not changed. Yeah. The ways in which we do it and the channels that we use have changed.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

But the underlying fundamentals haven't. And and that's what I don't think AI is ever going to be to be able to do.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

I think we we done a podcast with Ian Ord um from Fifth Ring, and he he mentioned with uh with the AI side people will use it more and more. The problem will become people will companies will lose their voice. You know, they'll they'll become people if people use AI, they're they're basically getting bits of everything that's already been put in there previously, it's not specific to that company, and then and then maybe you lose what you've spent a lot of time creating, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yes, you don't want you don't want to lose your culture because you know I always say to to to clients, you know, it's about as you say, having having your voice because that that tone of voice, that culture, that's your brand. Yeah, you know, your brand's not a logo. No, yeah, you know, that that make that makes up your brand. And if you've got a you know got a hard air earned good reputation, do you want to you want to maintain that?

SPEAKER_01 32:06

No, for sure. And then just uh earlier time with big. I mean, is that would you do that again? Have you enjoyed it? Would you do it again or would you do something different?

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Um I have I I always say you shouldn't you shouldn't have regrets, and I certainly don't have regrets. I I loved um I loved the uh big, it's still my baby. Um it's it's it's still something I'll be incredibly proud proud of for for a long time. Um I think the there's certain things along the way that I suppose you wish you'd done differently. Or one of one of the those is that I didn't have enough time to spend with my daughter at certain periods in her in her life because I was constantly working.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Um and I think I remember when when I mentioned to my husband that I was starting to think that I was tired and and that uh I wanted to take a bit of a step back. And I said, maybe I'll do three days a week. And he said, he said, knowing you're three days will be five, but I suppose that's better than seven. And I and and that that was it.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

And I think there's always going to be constant.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

And I think with with any with agency, most and I think most agency leaders will say the same as uh as myself. You're you know, the type of work that we do, you're pretty much always on cog.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah, you you know it doesn't stop. There's always some of the especially nowadays with WhatsApp and everything, you're even more contactable now.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

There's always something. Um but at the same time it's um it's it's exciting, it's it's it's fast paced, no date, I suppose, you know, no no ever is ever the same. Um, you know, and I I speak to friends and family who hate their job. And you know, that would be something you would regret to to think that you work more than you do anything else if you don't enjoy what you do.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Why are you doing it? What's it all about? Yeah. And then uh you must have worked with some amazing companies through that time or uh fantastic projects. What what would be the kind of top projects that you remember you think that was that was just fantastic working on that?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Uh oh too many, too many to mention. I I think what I'd probably what I really like is so Exodus is a uh is probably an example that I would I I would mention because they're celebrating their 20th anniversary and we have worked with them since day one.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Um so being involved with a company who had, you know, there were the small startup that had come well, they I think they came out of Genesis. I mean that was the that was the whole the whole point of Exodus from journalists. Um and you know they were the small startup, but they did right away, they didn't want to be a small startup. They wanted to hit the ground running, be uh, you know, seen as a as a as a as a serious consultancy from day one and and being involved in that and and sharing in their journey and still working with them uh to this day is is it is we actually received a press release um just about 20 minutes before this um from regards Exodus.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

So yeah, good that that's that's a really good one. And they've been quite good with us um pre-COVID. Um I think for your team was the point of contact for Exodus at that point and still has been for years.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, and I I think it's you know that the I think the the industry average, you know, is is something like a client will stay with an agency for about three years or something. You know, we we've got clients that, as I say, have been with us since since day one. We've got clients that that have been with us for a little for a for a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

You must be proud of that.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

So so for for your legacy then, because you're now taking time away or a couple of days a week working at big. So from starting it to your MBO to new working two days a week, you've got clients that have been there for twenty years since you kicked it off. What what do you want you what do you want your um sort of legacy to be remembered as at big?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

I think that we we always got the job done. Yeah. We didn't let clients down. Um we d we deliver for clients, we have we have good relationships with clients. I think if you've got you know, if you've got a trusted relationship with your with your client, and it's I've said this before in pictures that it's no surprise to to me when we when we have really good results for a client that that we work with really closely. You know, it's because it's a two-way street. Yeah. You know, we can't make things up. Yeah, no, the the the the client has to to be open and share share with us and and be very clear on what the overall business objectives are so that we can then help them meet uh meet those. So so I think yes, so it's about if we've done meaningful work that's had had an impact, um, that's that's what I'm most pleased with. And and the relationships that I've built up over the years with with clients, yeah, um that that's really important. Um and and in a little in a way when I announced that what I was that was taking a bit of a step back, it was actually really lovely reading all the comments um that I got that I got on LinkedIn. Some some some of them sounded like it was my obituary, but but it it was it was actually lovely, and it was lovely to hear from people that had worked at Big that had something to say. So I suppose my primary six teacher, um and and and people have heard me say this before, but when we arrived in primary six at my school, our teacher, Mrs. Love, as she was called, said, Your motto for the year is BNTK. And we were all like, what does that mean? And it BNTK was be nice to know. Okay. Um and I know it's a bit cheesy, but it's something that served me well.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

So did you go?

SPEAKER_00 37:55

St. Margaret's yeah. It's something that served me well over uh over over the years. It's it is just that you know, if you're if you if you're nice to know, if you if you if you genuinely listen and want to hit want to help people, you get you're gonna talk in spades.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then away if you big, away if you work, so what what does Soe do?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Um well obviously um since I became uh director of Aberdeen Football Club, football has taken even more of an important place uh in my life. So I I spend most of my weekends uh watching the men.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Were you a big football fan before?

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Uh yeah, I was I was a fan.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Threw you under the bus.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

I was definitely definitely a Dawn's fan. I mean I grew up in the 80s, of course I was a Dawns fan. Um you know, but but I probably I go to Patology a lot more often than uh than I did. Um but I'd worked with the club for again for about for about 20 years uh uh as a consultant. So I kind of you know and and going back to your question about which campaign, which am I most proud of? I think the two campaigns that we did for the club, so Aurora for um Cormount Park and the still standing free campaign during Covid, those are two campaigns that I'm incredibly proud of.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

My daughter's Aurora, and we were considering no calling her Aurora because because Aurora was everywhere as a side of buses, everything. It was like, do we really want her to be called this? Are people going to think of this football stadium?

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Sorry about that. Um but um but yes, I love the football. Um it's men's games and and women's. So my daughter plays for Aberdeen's uh Aberdeen women's team, so I've got a vested interest in the women. Um and you know, I like to be able to advocate.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

And they're growing now as well. I mean, they've got a lot of sponsorship now that they never got before.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

So women's women's women's football, and so we saw the impact the lioness has had uh women's football is definitely on an upward trajectory. I think it but it it it needs lots of lots of support um financially and yeah, but a bit more support in the the terraces as well.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Yeah, so you so you are you now still based in Aberdeen?

SPEAKER_00 40:02

I know, I've moved to the banks of Loch Aren. So I suppose when I get time out with out with the football and uh and big, then water skiing's my passion. So being on the Loch is great. That's yeah, that's out in boats, I'm at my happiest.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Brilliant. And then last question, we're in a bar, so what is your drink of choice?

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Oh now it depends what kind of outing it is. Well you tell me So I think it I think go to is probably proseco.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Um but you can get a bit fed if it after a beef eye you can get bit fed up of that.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

So what you're moving on to? Wod can diet cood candy co perfect. Zoe, thank you very much.