🎙️ Episode 36: Ecosystem Vs Egosystem

Episode 36: Ecosystem vs Egosystem – The Difference Between Building Community and Building a Cult

Leadership isn’t the problem. Exploitation is.

In this episode, we dive headfirst into a question that makes a lot of people uncomfortable:

Are you building an ecosystem… or an egosystem?

We talk about the subtle (and not-so-subtle) difference between healthy leadership and hierarchical control. Between fair value exchange and monetised proximity. Between building real community and building something that revolves around one person at the top.

We unpack:

• The red flags of pay-to-play cultures in business and publishing
• Monetised hierarchy and “guru” dynamics
• What happens when people leave a space – and how leaders respond
• The difference between decentralising power and abandoning leadership

We also challenge the idea that good coaching should make itself redundant – and explain why long-term developmental partnerships are not dependency, they’re growth.

This isn’t anti-leadership. We lead spaces. We facilitate. We’re paid for our expertise.

But when revenue flows upward without reciprocity… When growth threatens the leader… When leaving is shamed… That’s not community. That’s control.

If you care about books, brands, business – and the ethics behind them – this one’s for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:29

Welcome back to Awesomely Off Topic. So, ecosystem versus egosystem.

SPEAKER_01: 0:34

That sounds very, very heavy, doesn't it, Ash? It sounds very exciting, I think, rather than heavy. It does good. Yeah, good one. I liked it. As soon as we came up with it, I thought that sounds good.

SPEAKER_02: 0:43

I think so. And of course, we were a little bit tongue-in-cheek with that line about building cults. But hopefully, you'll pick up on what it is that we need. Um, so Ash and I have both been in rooms, online and off. It doesn't actually need to be a space, this can be the virtual world as well, that are described as kind of community, collaboration, opportunity, and yet for some reason something felt just a little bit off. What would you say, Ash?

SPEAKER_01: 1:12

Off, definitely, that's the word immediately, isn't it? Which I mean, not quite right, not quite gelling, not quite feeling comfortable actually, just feeling uncomfortable, a little bit iff, I think. Sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23

Yeah, so it's almost like on the surface, it kind of looked like this opportunity for shared growth, but then underneath, once you scratch that surface a little bit, it starts to feel more like hierarchy, extraction, centralized spotlight on the guru of the moment. So today we want to talk about the difference between an ecosystem and an egosystem. I've said before. Tony takes a tiny change of character to turn an ecosystem into an ecosystem.

SPEAKER_01: 1:54

Very nice, so true.

SPEAKER_02: 1:55

Yeah. And just just to clarify, this is not about anti-leadership. We both lead spaces, we both facilitate, we both pay for our expertise. So it's it's not that leadership is the problem, it's not. It's when it's exploitation posing as opportunity.

SPEAKER_01: 2:13

Yeah, that's really important. And and I think it's all about um sharing that uh opportunity with others on an equal playing field from uh you know, everybody is equal, and so therefore we're gonna be in it together. It's very much that team aspect of it, which I talk about, which I love. Very much a team player and working as a team for the benefit of all.

SPEAKER_02: 2:35

Do you agree? Yeah, so an ecos ecosystem distributes growth and capability, which is what we came to when we were trying to define it, whereas an ecosystem concentrates power and monet monetises proximity to the in air quotes guru, whatever that happens to be. So just to be clear as well, it doesn't mean an ecosystem in an ecosystem everyone has to have the same role, it means the roles are clear, credit is absolutely transparent, and the growth of everyone in that group, the growth expands outward rather than it all being pulled back into the hosts. Yeah, the one individual or a a select few. Yeah, basically. It builds outwards, so an ecosystem might look like um clear leadership and accountability, that's really important. What else, Ash?

SPEAKER_01: 3:27

Well, it's also about um expertise, isn't it? And you know, paying for that expertise because that person, that individual, that organisation is um really respected in their profession, in their role, in their job, what they do, their expertise is everything. So therefore, it's paying for that amazing amount of wealth of knowledge.

SPEAKER_02: 3:48

Yeah, and depending on the kind of event or kind of again ecosystem, it might not always be a financial payment, it might be in terms of um some kind of collaboration or or exposure or I don't know, something. Um, but it's about giving proper credit where credit is due. Yeah, so important. It's also putting boundaries around what is and isn't transferable. So we often say this on the big one and the bigger one. There's there's a rule that everyone agrees to, which is don't teach the teachings. That's not about going, no, this is ours, you're not allowed to have it. It's about them being part of a much bigger work, part of um uh um uh a verbal um storytelling system, if you like. It's oral, that's the it's part of an oral tradition, a lot of the teachings. Obviously, that's how it was taught, wasn't it, in tribes going back thousands of years. Yeah, and it's not a teacher training programme. No, so whenever whenever either one of us runs a training course, no, but same the same for you guys, you don't want somebody turning up on Andrew's neck in it all and running straight off. Not because you're being guarded to the point of exclusivity, but because that's yours that you've created, and again, it's not a teacher training programme. It's also about respect for the teachers and the teachings, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. We talk about that a lot as well. Totally. Um it's about an an ecosystem has people who are stronger throughout, they keep growing, they keep gaining strength, knowledge, expertise, so they leave stronger than when they arrived.

SPEAKER_01: 5:22

Yeah, exactly. That's the whole point, isn't it? You can take away so much from it, and that very often is the kickstart for you to lead to bigger and even more growth in ways hopefully in the best ways sometimes are the w in ways that you don't expect necessarily. So it's it's growth that spreads rather than following upwards.

SPEAKER_02: 5:42

Okay, that's a nice way of looking at it. So build wide, not tall. Yeah, that's a cool, I like that. Yeah. We we talk about this a lot, don't we? This idea of of people building pyramids.

SPEAKER_01: 5:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 5:52

And you know, this this idea of a pyramid is lots of people at the bottom and and and one shining guru person standing at the top. And there's that saying, isn't there, that you know, it's lonely at the top, but it's sure it's crowded at the bottom. But I think we we often work in terms of flipping things, we'll we'll look at things and go, what would that look like if we turned it the other way or upside down? And when we first started looking at that pyramid thing, I'm sure we're not the first people to have recognised this or said it. If you turn that pyramid upside down, that means there were a few people standing at the bottom, and when you get to the top, you can reach over and help people up.

SPEAKER_01: 6:31

And I think that's far more our ethos, and also celebrate together. Yeah, celebrate together the successes, what you've achieved, how you've grown, how your businesses have grown, all of that stuff, and also there's the J-word, the journey on the way. So celebrating all those challenges that have come up for you individually, but also those shared challenges, some of those things that are common to many of you in that tribe, in that group, yeah, that you can really talk about, and from that, of course, comes loads of ideas for your content. Let's not get on to that, we're going on slightly.

SPEAKER_02: 7:02

Regardless of whether this is one of our programmes or something online or offline or or an event, whatever it happens to be. So it's again underline, underline, underline. It's not that the issue is authority, it's when it's very often what happens is you get insecurity dressed up as authority. That's when we start to get issues creeping in a few. So if that was an ecosystem, then what's an ego system, Ash?

SPEAKER_01: 7:31

Oh, crumbs. It's about well again, it's that it's that pyramid, isn't it? With one person or a few people at the top, yeah, and then um in order to get to those few people at the top, you've gotta pay. You've gotta pay, and then you've got to pay for something else. You've got to bleed, and then you've got to pay for something else, and then you've got to pay to be in the same proximity, breathe the same air.

SPEAKER_02: 7:54

Yeah, it's when people think the only way they're gonna get success is if they pay to hang around with this person. That kind of elitism almost, I suppose it is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 8:02

It's that kind is that the right word?

SPEAKER_02: 8:03

I don't know if you think it can also an ego system can look quite similar to an ecosystem from the outside, which is how so many of us end up inadvertently falling into them. So it still talks about collaboration and community, but it's kind of a bit different structurally. Okay. So that might look like you've just said this, access to the leader is monetised at every level. Um any contributors are used as marketing assets. Um again, all the all the credit and all the money flows all flows upwards. Um and very often I've noticed this one, and this particularly happens with with events, the the the the smaller businesses end up funding the structure. So very often, you know, in our publishing careers, we got used to running things that were sponsored, yeah. And making sure that the amount of coverage and visibility that the sponsors get make it a no-brainer for them to throw the cash at you. But when you go into sponsors at that level, you go into bigger organisations who have the marketing budgets to fund that.

SPEAKER_00: 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 9:15

And then it's up to you to make sure that they've got a good exchange on paper. Hand off.

SPEAKER_01: 9:20

You've got to roll out the red carpets for them because they're putting the money. Yeah. They're but they're supporting your event, and if we're talking events, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so therefore, but that's down to you as an organiser. Yeah, but it's making provide that, create that it's a.

SPEAKER_02: 9:32

It's making sure their brand gets enough visibility. Yeah. Um, and what I s what I'm seeing, and we both we both are, is more and more new events are coming up, and rather than them going to bigger sponsors, they're trying to get the kind of solopreneurs, the people just starting out to sponsor and pay for that event. And I don't think that's necessarily the best way to go for sponsorship. And we'll come on to this a bit later, but very often is because people don't know what to do, where to go, or how to try and attract more sponsorship opportunities. And again, that thing with proximity to the guru in air quotes being being sold as transformation, you know, monetised proximity is not community. Excuse me. Yeah, yeah. So if your business only works when people pay to orbit you, pay to be in your solar system, I'd argue that's not really leadership.

SPEAKER_01: 10:35

Again, it's that icky kind of what is that then?

SPEAKER_02: 10:38

What is it? Well, again, we want to be really, really clear. We are not saying leaders shouldn't be paid. We run spaces, we organise venues, we market, we facilitate, and that labour, that effort, of course that deserves payment.

SPEAKER_01: 10:50

Yeah, and we're not saying that that whole kind of hierarchy thing is a bad thing. It's not, you know, in any event, any room, any thing that you go to like that, somebody's got to be responsible for that, and they're obviously got to put they've got to put a lot of effort to be in that space, to hold that space for other people, for other organisations, and we need to honour that. And that is that's really healthy, isn't it? It's healthy hierarchy. Oh, I like a bit of alliteration. Oh, nice. Oh, I came up with that all by myself. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02: 11:18

So, what is healthy hierarchy then? So that's got to be being clear about who the facilitator is.

SPEAKER_01: 11:24

Yeah, okay, agree with that. Clear lines of responsibility. Yeah. Oh, and of course, around pricing, transparency, transparent pricing, all of that, transparent every way, every step of the way, so there's no nasty surprises.

SPEAKER_02: 11:37

This is something I've argued with with trainers and and um gurus before as well. I remember working with with a coach in my early days. And one of the first things she said to me was that I'd got to take the pricing off my website because it was taking away my ability to upsell, and what I needed to do is take all the pricing off and then get them onto a call and then essentially see how much money I could get from them. And I stopped working with her pretty much immediately, and having had a wobble and listen to her at the start and taking the pricing off, within a matter of days that pricing was back on my website. I don't want to be going into that trick of you know looking at somebody's shoes and judging how much I think they can afford to pay me. I want to be transparent.

SPEAKER_01: 12:23

So there might be people to us listening, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here a little bit, because there might be some people saying, Well, what's wrong with that? It's just business. What is the problem with that approach?

SPEAKER_02: 12:33

Because you are making number one, you're making a judgment call about how much you think someone can afford, yeah, or is going to be willing to pay you, and that's not fair. And number two, it means you're gonna have different payment structures for different people. There is a difference between having a clear payment structure and then working out a deal with someone who for whatever reasons might be going through hard times, or maybe they've been for been a client for a long time and you want to be able to add something else for them to to um to add to the value, yeah. Or maybe there's someone who comes along, you want something that's a bit off book, and you build something bespoke. That's very, very different to keeping your prices quiet, and then picking and choosing how much you charge according to who it is. Imagine if you went into a shop, you want a new pair of jeans, yeah, and you go into, I don't know, Levi's, and there are no sizes on anything. You go and try things on in the trendy, and you find a pair of jeans that really look nice, really feel comfortable, and and and you want this pair of jeans, and you ask how much they are. Number one, that's gonna put people off, you shouldn't have to ask how much. And number two, they look you up and down, make a judgment call based on how much you can afford. They see, I don't know, a vintage target watch on your wrist and decide they're gonna charge you 150 quid. What they don't know is that target watch was left to you by your great-great-grandfather or something. Don't know if Targ was even around.

SPEAKER_01: 13:57

I don't know how old Targ is. Here's a little bit of homework, everybody listening in. Tell us, tell us uh how old Targ the brand is. Anyway, for whatever reason Targ, are you there? Tell us how old you are.

SPEAKER_02: 14:07

That watch was was was l was was gifted to them, was bequeathed to them, whatever. And in fact, they're out work, they're trying to look after their family. They've got one big event they've got to go to, they need to look smart for, which is why they're trying to find a new pair of jeans.

SPEAKER_00: 14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:23

And therefore. And yet the person who comes in just after them dressed a bit more scratty, perhaps. They're wearing a uh a a battered old Casio G shock on their wrist, and they look them up and down under that same pair of jeans as 50 quid. It's just wrong. You shouldn't you you you should have this is the price for this, this is the price for that. You don't do your pricing based on how much money you think somebody can give you.

SPEAKER_01: 14:50

Yeah, that is to me, that makes me go a little bit thank you for that. I just wanted to really because I just be interesting to get other people's views on that. So if you're listening and you vehemently disagree or you agree, um tell us. Yeah, tell us your view on that. There's only one reason.

SPEAKER_02: 15:03

There is only one reason to not put your prices on your website, and that's because you want to upsell. And that for me feels grubby. It's it means that your emphasis is is on uh exploiting and extracting everything you from people rather than working out what it is they need and serving that need cleanly and fairly.

SPEAKER_00: 15:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 15:24

Um, so it's it's healthy hierarchy is also shared development. So for instance, when we're running a group programme, we're very, very clear about saying that we might be facilitating this, we might be leading this, you might be here because you want our expertise, our training, our guidance. But that doesn't mean that we are higher than you or lower than you. We're all on the same level, it's just that we happen to have this piece of learning, growth, development that you want access to. That's fine. Um, but we would expect that everybody in that room can get something from it, and we all grow together. Hey, we're gonna get something as leaders as well.

SPEAKER_00: 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:04

And it is, as we said before, about building clean boundaries about the work that you show. And if there's stuff that's got to that's just for the individuals, then it stays there. You know, that's no different to somebody going to train in, what's a training programme that has very obvious delineations between level Reiki.

SPEAKER_00: 16:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:21

So when you first go and train in Reiki, it's to practice on yourself. You're not going to start practicing on others until you get to level two. You're not going to start teaching others until you get to level three, and then when you start teaching people and they come for level one, you're not sending them out into the world to teach that, so you'd have clear boundaries.

SPEAKER_01: 16:42

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 16:42

It's a good way of explaining it.

SPEAKER_01: 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:44

Yeah. It's it's the difference between holding the centre of a space cleanly and hoarding the spotlight.

SPEAKER_01: 16:50

Oh yeah. We've been to a few, yeah, haven't we, over the years? I've imagined all of us have seen that in action, both good and bad. So, okay, so what else are we going to talk about?

SPEAKER_02: 16:59

I think the other thing that plays into this is this narrative around coaching that says um the goal should be to make yourself redundant as fast as possible. Okay, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 17:09

Tell me a bit about that.

SPEAKER_02: 17:10

I hate that. Every now and then you'll hear somebody saying that the the goal of a coach should be to bring somebody in, teach them what they need to know, and then ship them out quickly.

SPEAKER_01: 17:19

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 17:19

You know, I know not too long ago um one of the BBC Dragons, not one I'd coached, one of the BBC Dragons said that quite clearly in an interview. And I think there's a massive confusion there. That's mentoring, that's training, that's skills transfer. That is not how I we see coaching.

SPEAKER_01: 17:36

Yeah, and it's because isn't that because coaching can be really long term for us. I mean, crumbs, I've got some clients that I know that I've worked with, you know, on one particular project, they've come back to me. I'm too I'm not talking weeks or months later, I'm talking years later. Yeah. Still good business contacts for me that have brought in other people to work with me. And if I hadn't had that long-term approach, that wouldn't have happened. Because the whole growth thing isn't just one level, it doesn't stay there. It might they they will come back for other things, and that's exactly true with with my experience. What about you? I've got to do that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 18:10

I look at it with more of a kind of health care and wellness head on. So it's ongoing, you build that relationship. Growth isn't one level, you don't just get to come and say, I want to go from here to here, then you get here and go, Right, I don't I don't need you anymore. The second you step up to another level, there's a new set of worries you're gonna have, a new set of insecurities potentially, new set of skills, new set of skills you need, new level, new terrain. So it's not about the duration that you stay with a coach or that a coach allows you to stay with them. Allows a funny word there, but it's it's about it's about the power dynamic, not about the duration.

SPEAKER_00: 18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:47

So with with healthy coaching to take your your healthy hierarchy, um sorry, I couldn't come up with a bit of alliteration. Clean coaching? That's not still not as good as that, though. Healthy coaching.

SPEAKER_01: 19:00

Sorry, it's just not healthy coaching. You can keep practicing practicing with an S. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With an S. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:05

Healthy coaching leads to clients being able to think more clearly, trust themselves more, yeah. They can choose to stay if they're still getting something from that relationship, they can leave without any fear, not immediately. I would recommend anybody in business where you have an ongoing program to have a decent um uh notice period so that everybody's business can stay stable, that's fine. And the relationship evolves. So again, for me, it's like health care and wellness. You don't see, I don't know, uh a physiotherapist or or your GP or the dentist just once and then that's it. That's an ongoing relationship where you go back regularly to keep on top of your health and to keep getting better and better and better.

SPEAKER_01: 19:50

Um so So hang on a minute. So if that's healthy then, so what for you makes unhealthy coaching?

SPEAKER_02: 19:58

Um people who give out that vibe of you will regress without me.

SPEAKER_01: 20:03

What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_02: 20:04

So you were working in a cocktail bar before as a waitress in a cocktail bar before I met me. If you step away from me about my head now, that's an absolute earworm now. If you stop coaching with me, you won't be able to cope, you'll lose your clients, your business will go down the drain. That kind of idea.

SPEAKER_01: 20:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:21

Uh isolation. Um making sure that they think you're the only one that can help them. I've got another earworm now.

SPEAKER_01: 20:29

Stop coming up with song too. Well, what have you got now? You're the only I can't remember what it is. What is it? There's something singing in my brain. Can't be the only one to call you. Yes, what's that from? What is that song? No, is it? Can't remember. We're going off going off topic.

SPEAKER_02: 20:45

There you go, listeners, you expect that from it. The identity of that coaching dynamic is all built around the coach.

SPEAKER_01: 20:52

So do you know this I'm being a bit everything's about then.

SPEAKER_02: 20:56

They expect that person is just gonna be able to they expect that person to get something from just being able to see, well, well, my coach is blah. A bit like Dole Boy waving his final packs around. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:08

And fear's almost you can get into competitive coaching.

SPEAKER_02: 21:11

Yeah, you know, yeah. Fear-based retention. So the coach on some level is afraid of letting a client go, and the client is afraid of moving away. So it becomes dependency rather than long-term support. So long-term support is not the same as dependency, yeah, but fear-based retention is. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 21:30

Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Thank you for that clarification. You're welcome. You're welcome. Good stuff. So what else have we got then?

SPEAKER_02: 21:36

Come on, I suppose the test is if somebody walked away from your program tomorrow, yeah. Once they've given the correct notice period, blah blah blah, would they collapse or would they continue growing with what they've built from you so far?

SPEAKER_01: 21:53

I would hope it would be they'd continue growing. So that's the luck. That's what it looks like. perspective of coaching in terms of book coaching and mentoring. Yeah. That is exactly that because I would hope that maybe they've they've um learnt how to create a narrative and to turn that into a book and they've learnt how to build power you know build the chapters and how to build all of that.

SPEAKER_02: 22:17

And we narrow yeah we know from from me hearing those some some of those conversations when we've been in places and some of your former authors have come back to you when they've got another book to do they know they can do it on their own but they need the accountability, they want the guidance and they want it to be the best that it could possibly be. So they still want to come back into your ecosystem to help them stay accountable and keep tweaking and keep getting better.

SPEAKER_01: 22:41

Well that comes back to the thing doesn't mean they can't do it without you. That's what we came that comes back to what we said at the beginning wasn't it that people will come back not just weeks later months and particularly if you're talking about books because for people that's a big project. Yeah. It might take you months even a you know a year sometimes so people will come back but obviously it'll be a um there might be a bit of a gap between that.

SPEAKER_02: 23:00

I think it also depends on what people want. So sometimes a client might come in to me or any other coach and specifically just want to go from A to B. They want to build their confidence enough to do live videos for instance and they might be so set on that that is what you agree you agree in advance that's going to be the duration of your coaching that's what it's going to do and when they've done that off they go but they might come back to you sporadically for other things if they choose to I've got other coaches who've been with me for years coaches and coaches who've been with me for years. You know some people might come in for the duration of a programme then go off and explore something else some people will go to come to a program and then want to come in again for the new term and the one after that and the one after that because they are still getting growth and support and they are enjoying the dynamic but it is not about dependency and holding on to people for the sake of it.

SPEAKER_00: 23:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 23:54

They are genuinely getting something from that situation and therefore they genuinely want to stay part of that ecosystem.

SPEAKER_01: 24:01

Like that nice one. Yeah so can I bring up something that's been burning a bit of a thing in my events. Let's talk about events what's it been burning into Ash well it's been burning a little bit of uh in my thought processes about events and and talking about this whole kind of ego led or eco etc etc so let's talk about that because this is where this has shown up a lot for us over the years I think it's one of the easiest places to spot it yes it's a really obvious place isn't it to look for that so go on you talk about the ob let's look at it from the kind of you know we talked about ecosystem let's look at the ecosystem event then right what that looks like.

SPEAKER_02: 24:39

Okay so it's it's an ecosystem event one of the big things I'm I'm thinking about some of my pet h now I'm thinking about the pay to speak thing and where that all plugs in. So an ecosystem event might have ticket led revenue yeah it might have strategic sponsorship but from the bigger organisations who have the budget for that yeah okay it might offer optional boltons you might be able to buy expo stands VIP dinners one-on-ones with I don't know some of the the key leader the the key opinion leaders there or something I don't know yeah um they might get access to special events things like that and the speakers there are respected as professionals in their own right whereas an ego system event what's that like then yeah we've got a whole episode we're planning on this but this is going to ruffle feathers charging speakers to work you're not gonna oh you've done I've been saying this for a long long time and I I will I will this will be the hill I die on charging speakers to work yeah you were done because somebody'll push you down the hill with a venture but no I agree with you totally go for it.

SPEAKER_01: 25:47

Come on Okay and more in your camp what about charging people to give away their books? Oh no no no no that is somebody's work they have bloody you know spilt tears, sweat, tears, everything on that book to write it to give of themselves in the best way, gone really deep sometimes on the on that book. You know it's the the labour of love and to then expect people to pay to have their no just it goes it just and the other thing that I would say can I use your phrase what it boils my piss. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:20

Thank you for that. I think the other the other issue um with the what what's often sold as book sponsorships is that number one somebody's got to pay for sponsoring number two they've then got to pay for enough copies of their book to put one on every seat anybody else there who's got some books means they're precluded from taking them with them or talking about it. And and it's supposed to be a collaborative event really and number th number three or number four I forget how many numbers the next number and this one I would love to shape people and get this through their heads the second you mass give away a book for free it devalues that book. Hallelujah yes I want to ask you all listening to this genuinely how many times have you been to an event been given a book and oh god I've got to carry this round now and it's not something I want to read I'll give it away or I'll accidentally leave it on the table or I'll dump it with the sitting on your shelf but you've not even touched it you've forgotten it.

SPEAKER_01: 27:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:22

Because if you if somebody is is effectively paying to give you their book that's a bit backwards it smacks of desperation and it feels like oh well they can't really have much of a market can they that they they they're trying to force me to read this book and if if any of the IDHD is or neurodivergent people in the room it might even tap into a bit of PDA as well it's like shut off I'm not reading that. Yeah no it's different if somebody has uh an event and there's maybe an author signing table and that's part of a VIP package where they can go and sit that there with their books fine. If somebody is a speaker at an event and part of their um part of their payment has been the organisers buy a copy of their book for everybody there. I've had that before fine but I hate it if somebody's sitting at an event and feels they can't talk about their book and what's more somebody else has had to pay money to get copies of their book printed and to drop them on the tables. I do not believe it does them any good. I believe it damages their reputation in the same way that paying to speak can damage your reputation and I don't think it's the best way. I have no problem at all when we run an event if somebody says it's alright to bring some of my books with me yeah you can keep them on your table with you and if anybody wants them we wouldn't encourage you to be going around the room actively selling them but if you want to bring some of your books in your bag and if somebody wants one fine no problem. Exactly that or again if there's a VIP bolt on where you can go and have a special author sign in place yeah you can pay for be to be part of that fine but I'd never be encouraging people to give their books away for free. Definitely not um what else um sponsorship extracted from solopreneurs in air quotes this is where I was saying earlier one of the things we learned in our publishing careers is if we were creating something like I don't know a special edition there's there's a gap at the end of the budget you need to make some more money quickly I know we'll come up with a special edition and we'll go and get sponsorship from these three big organisations that we've we've targeted.

SPEAKER_01: 29:23

And we're talking about here we've just to clarify this this is B2B publishing we're talking about big business big international brands very often we're not just talking about you know we're talking like yeah so way back one of my jobs was editing and and and managing magazines for the dental sector for instance so the readers were the dentists the hygienists the teams the receptionists the dental teams but the ones you might want to go and get sponsorship from is the dental industry so the people who are making the chairs the masks the tools the autoclaves maybe even some of the big uh dental groups so for instance with me I worked in the office products industry so we're talking about people that are manufacturers of your office products so your printers and your you know photocopies as it would have been then and you know all those different types of things that you see in an office the office chairs the firm So you wouldn't be going to a little one man band stationer selling things through Amazon.

SPEAKER_02: 30:28

I'd be going to HBO You'd be going to the people sorry they buy in the club for HB you'd be going to the people they buy the products in from yeah yeah yeah so um you wouldn't again if we were doing that we wouldn't go to an individual dentist and say do you want to sponsor this supplement? No because it's the people you go for sponsorship with are the ones who have the products or the services that they would like the the punters at that event or reading that special edition to buy from them. Yeah. Yeah so in the in in terms of business events you might expect sponsorship um to you you'd be looking at things like maybe banks, building societies, some of the software companies um some of the people who do I don't know email systems um people who do uh office products people who I don't know Apple Android the big people the people who are gonna be gonna benefit from everybody at your event seeing them and recognising oh wow they're they're helping to run this event so that's good I might I might go to them. They clearly have an interest in my industry.

SPEAKER_01: 31:44

But that you see as you're saying that there might be some people saying how on earth am I going to get I've got a relatively you know reasonable size event but not a massive event. How am I ever going to get people like that to pay attention to my event?

SPEAKER_02: 31:57

Well this is the upward it's the upside down pyramid thing again isn't it? You know you're sitting at the top and you're expecting people who are probably on the same level as you or maybe not even f as far ahead in business to pay for you to run your event. The only way they should be paying to run your event is if they're turning up as as as as punters as as as as ticket holders.

SPEAKER_00: 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:19

But what makes the tickets affordable for them is when you go to the people with the bigger marketing budgets to extract decent amounts of sponsorship.

SPEAKER_01: 32:28

And also what does that actually look like for your event? Think about that for you if you got I don't know say a 10 grand sponsor you think amazing we've got a 10 grand sponsor but I'm not sure if I can do that. It's a lot of money you know who's going to put that up I'm just plucking it out of the air it might be low cost. But 10 grand you start with your local branch.

SPEAKER_02: 32:47

But what I'm gonna say is to the the sponsor that you're approaching the ocean yeah so they might give they might uh give it a punt with your what we do is we were in in the old days when we were helping people with sponsorship programmes and we do this for people organising events now as well we'll help them to come up with the with a sponsorship programme and potential um leads um you might have different sponsorship packages you might have a 1500 quid sponsorship package or you might have um a two and a half grand package a five grand package a ten grand package and for each one you need to build a higher level of visibility yeah so that they could say well if we were paying for that much in adverts it'd cost us way more than that sponsorship yeah for instance so a sponsorship tiered program tiered sponsorship program so they can look at it and say exactly what they're gonna get for that and you go well who are they well you start you can start with your local branch you might go to your local branch of I don't know Metro Bank for instance and us to speak to the manager and say this is what I've got I'd love to there's a local event is there any way we could get any sponsorship what could you do and you listen to them.

SPEAKER_01: 33:51

Now that's a really good point because when I was running TEDx events um one of the things that we did was do exactly what you've just said there and actually Metro one of the guys we approached and to them you know we were looking maybe I don't know for perhaps a two grand input and in the end we might have agreed on a thousand.

SPEAKER_02: 34:07

Yeah excuse me I'm coughing away so carry on okay so it's LinkedIn and I know a lot of you are going to go oh no LinkedIn I don't know how to use LinkedIn I'm much more comfortable on Facebook get your ass on LinkedIn and learn how to use it properly and learn how to search for the decision makers in the potential sponsorship organisations you have you have identified based on who are your punters going to be who is your audience going to be and which organisations with budgets to spend are going to have an interest in promoting themselves to that organisation. Yeah you know it's it's not rocket science but you've got to get your head around it. And it also makes your job much easier. Imagine if you're getting big chunks of sponsorship from maybe a handful of people rather than trying to extract a hundred five hundred quids from people or having to get to the point where you have to charge your speakers to work. On this one I think what's going on with this this um charging speakers to work is I think what's happened is a couple of events have done it so many people are desperate to become speakers and love doing it that they've gone yeah I'll get that and now when more and more newer events have come through they've just thought that's the normal way.

SPEAKER_01: 35:25

Yeah and it is not seen as another way and yet there's been a way that's been working forever yeah has worked really effectively and suddenly it feels a bit like we're going a bit backwards really.

SPEAKER_02: 35:35

Yeah so you know charging authors to give away books charging your speakers to work and this is not the same way again we've got a full episode coming out on this soon so so stay tuned we will expand on it if you are creating an event where your speakers are paying to get onto your stage because of part of that deal they're just going to stand up there and sell is that fair on your audience if you're reading a magazine and you're going flip flip flip through the pages and then there's an ad there's an advert that's I don't know magazine advert plug in a perfume or a training programme whatever it is and there's loads of writing about it's all really really possible positive at the top of that line somewhere it will say advertising feature or it should say advertising feature or paid for promotion there is a legal responsibility of the magazines to tell their readers when they are going to be reading content that is just a plug so therefore if your speakers have all paid to get onto your stage and sell I believe that there should be a legal responsibility for event organisers to make their audience aware that all those speakers they're turning up to to see hoping to learn to grow to get inspiration have all paid to be there and they are turning up to listen to a series of adverts.

SPEAKER_01: 36:59

But isn't that where event organisers have to take the responsible approach that if you you know if they care if you care about your event you want an event that's going to give something to your audience so they're gonna want to come back and do this, you know, join you again the following year or whenever you run your next event.

SPEAKER_02: 37:13

And if you're trying to build your speaking career and your claim to fame is that you've stood on that stage where everybody knows you can pay to stand on that stage do you really think that's a big credibility booster for you? No. It says well they can only speak on stages if they pay to be there. It's like buying your own trophy and the only way we're going to stop this is by speakers refusing to pay to work because that is your work if you're a professional speaker that is your work you would not expect an accountant to pay to do your accounts you wouldn't expect a web designer to pay to build your website you would not expect a plumber to pay to come and fit you a new bathroom you need to stop agreeing to pay to speak and event organisers you need to get back into that area where you have some uh get your integrity back in the game if you don't want speakers to sell from the stage tell them they're not allowed to sell from the stage maybe as part of the deal they can have an expo stand and people can go and go and see them there but stop expecting people to pay to your pay to come to your event to listen to people who've paid to be there. If people are wanting to sell from the stage yeah of course they should pay for that that's effectively an advertising feature on the stage in that case it should be branded as such you are destroying if you keep expecting speakers to pay to be at your event to be on your stage you are effectively destroying harming the professions of people just like you are taking food out of their kids' mouths and it's the same with people who and there's another episode coming up on this who use AI in a way that is not ethical. That's for another day that's another day but it's the same thing if anything that you are doing is actively harming other people's income unfairly that's an ethics issue for you to look at Wow okay and breathe Taz thank you good really good points whatever you're thinking as you're listening to this guys you can see we're both really passionate about this what's your view um you know let us know please do um lots of discussion coming up on that in the in the future with some of our future episodes we really want to um talk about this in more detail yeah so Taz let's talk about we we touched on let's just underline that one you do not charge people to work and if your first instinct when you are building something is what can I extract from people rather than how do I structure this sustainably and fairly then you've drifted.

SPEAKER_01: 39:50

So go on Ash sorry no it's fine good I I love the passion of it and we're getting serious Taz we really are there's no silly running around car parks as there was last week with we're in the final five episodes of this series so we are indeed we do have really going for it. So we see this a lot don't we this eco versus ego system in publishing. Yeah that's where it also shows up. Right so let's talk about first of all let's talk about what is our ideal kind of ecosystem in publishing.

SPEAKER_02: 40:19

Well we've talked about this a lot lately haven't we because of the book projects that you and I are going to be launching soon.

SPEAKER_00: 40:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:26

That is one of those collabs but done ethically and properly yeah um that's not to say that nobody else is but we've got a B Nob on it because we're seeing a few that are not doing in a way that for us is ethical and with integrity. So for you Ash if it's an ecosystem in publishing what would that include?

SPEAKER_01: 40:44

Well getting all the basics right but not only that but excelling in those basics so full editing proper ed what I call proper editing which is not just giving it a cursory glance but really having ideally really good eyes on it on the products that you're creating and also the words that are coming in from those fellow collaborators. And also the same with design you know making sure that we've got people in on board that can actually provide for you to make it look like a a really good professional job at the end of the day. And of course credit as well so giving credit wherever you possibly can if you've got say six eight people that are joining in that collaboration in that book then all of those should be cur uh should be um credited they should all get a fair mention all the same not having one person taking you know precedence over another so you mean that when there's been a collaborative book for instance the byline should be curated by instead of by Fred blogs when actually Fred blogs has taken money from the rest of the people to put the book together it's not by them. No it's curated by or collated by curated by collated by whichever but the the point of view is I suppose this is where I'm showing up you know I'm a team player I love team sports team player and we've all done this together or we've worked together on it we've all had our part to play within it but we're all there so therefore people should be fairly give them you know give them credit for what they've achieved for for what they've done and all sharing that one spotlight all celebrating that supporting one another okay everybody if you anybody's trying to throw up because they're thinking oh for goodness sake that's an idea yeah in an ideal world but for me that's my that's my place for me is is when I know it's it's been a good it's been well well done and it's a job well done.

SPEAKER_02: 42:30

Also on that note and so so the kind of credit ambiguity would fall under the ego system.

SPEAKER_01: 42:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:36

Also people doing that they're missing a trick. Because I know that for me if I'm in in a bookshop or on Amazon or at an event and there's a book and on the cover cover there's loads of contributing names I'll be scanning those names going wow who do I know there? Who do I want to learn from? Well there's going to be loads of information there. Having all the names shared on the cover is actually oh it's a great marketing a marketing benefit. It's a massive massive marketing tool because that's part of an ecosystem of publishing with collaborative publishing.

SPEAKER_01: 43:03

In the same way that you know if you're in a networking group and you've got you know you're giving credit to other people within that networking group somebody maybe that's a you know somebody that's does the same line of work as you the same with this you've got an opportunity to really promote each other with it and also to see as you said you know looking for familiar names that also spreads the message that there's this fantastic book on the shelves that everybody needs to buy a copy of.

SPEAKER_00: 43:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 43:28

If it's all equal yeah yeah yeah so for instance when I've done my whispers books in both of those majority was by me but there was a section at the back that was for stories written by some of my students I didn't get the choice there because that was it it wasn't self published. So the publisher there put it by me but I made sure that in the text all the way through it I very very clearly point to those people and give them all a byline in each one and then give them a shout out and help them to promote their elements of it. But if you're in part of a book that's Specifically a collaboration rather than a book written by one person with some with a few bits of input from others. A true collaborative book should be by everybody involved.

SPEAKER_00: 44:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 44:12

So what about Ego System Publishing, Ash? Where's where does that go wrong for you? What do you mean by this kind of proper what's not proper editing and proper design?

SPEAKER_01: 44:20

Quite a while back now, um we were talking earlier about books being given away at events, but I ended up with a book that was given to me at an event um that I knew the person that had put it all together or their team had put it together. Um and when I looked at it, I thought, oh, this this would be pretty good, I think, because I saw some good names on there, and there were some good names in it. But when as I started to look through it, it the layout was really poor. And it was so I go on about light and shade, but even the way a book looks, you want to entice the reader in, you want them to stay with you. But this was just it was almost like it had been put together at a last minute you know, some really basic things with the not just the structure of it, but the look of it. So what I call kind of template layout when it's all done exactly the same, there's no because however, even if the topic, if we're all writing on one topic, everybody's interpretation of that is going to be different, right? And it's gonna be layered and it's gonna be there are gonna be lots of different things to pull from each uh part, you know, each collaborator and each part of the book. So therefore, why on earth would you have a template that looks exactly the same on every chapter and every I I that's just made you know continuity, absolutely, and we want to keep it looking smart and professional and all the rest of it. But in terms of it not looking I want to be interested, I want to see what's coming next, and that variety and that uniqueness that gives that particular author something different to offer, even if the topic's the same. That that might just be a personal thing, but I think you're gonna add to that because I know what you're gonna say next time.

SPEAKER_02: 46:03

I know that I've I've taken on books uh or bought a book where a client or somebody I know, somebody I respect has has written a chapter in it, and although their chapter might have been brilliant, when I've opened the book and actually looked at just the work just the appearance, just the the sheer aesthetics of the book, it looks horrid. The fonts are all weird, they're weird sizes, it just looks like somebody has essentially printed a load of word documents with different su different fonts and different type sizes and all sorts.

SPEAKER_01: 46:36

And done a cut and paste, as somebody would say.

SPEAKER_02: 46:38

Yeah, they're not properly edited, there's no uniformity, or just the size of the fonts, is like what kind of book is this supposed to be? There's because you know the font size isn't-cause they're a bit of a font queen. Well just the size of it, it looks like it should be one of those books printed on hard cardboard or m or materials for baby's first book, you know. Yeah. It's just not, and that for me, if it if it's badly produced, poorly produced in terms of the editing quality or the design quality, that smacks to me of somebody who doesn't give a shit about the people that have paid the money, they just want the money and to train it out there. And I also believe that part of it should be the promotion and and and afterwards the the it shouldn't be they just have a big blast to sell it so that they can say that it's it's an Amazon bestseller. And frankly, if you do a book and it doesn't get to be Amazon bestseller, you're doing something wrong if you're self-publishing, um, learn how. It's not difficult. But if all they're doing is pushing out a big blast when the first book comes out and then they forget about you and they're on to the next slot, that smacks to me of again ego system because they're not interested in the longevity, they just want to push that book out there, go tick bestseller. I can now say I can pay people to be in a best-selling book. Actually, you shouldn't have a seller because you can't guarantee it, you should be able to do it, but you can't guarantee that before it goes out there.

SPEAKER_01: 47:58

Um it's just it's just off. It's also, I think one of the other things is obviously editorial standards.

SPEAKER_02: 48:04

Yeah, it needs to meet at least the minimal editorial standards, surely.

SPEAKER_01: 48:07

But what we have to be aware of here, and this is not me trying to make excuses for any issues that there might be with a printed book, but we know from all the research that's done that in every book there is gonna be something in there that we're gonna look and go, oh blast, we lost we forgot that full stop, or that should have been a semicolon there, or there's a capital letter where we don't need it, or we're missing a word. That is gonna happen. That's just human nature that we're not gonna get it 100% correct all the time. But also, it's about being consistent with that editorial standard. So, for instance, agreeing a style sheet almost for your book. So at the moment, one of the things I'm doing with one of my clients is doing exactly that. We're running through, we're on the second-third read-through now because we want to be consistent to make sure that we're I don't know, for instance, the way we talk about dates, are we gonna put the the the number first or the month first? Um and it doesn't matter, neither one is right or wrong, but we're gonna keep it as much as we can to the same style all the way through. And occasionally that'll slip. But I've looked at books that I've helped produce, and it has slipped sometimes, that happens. But if we can do that, it's just that consistency, so you're not getting a a real mismatch of things and different styles. And I think that's important too. Maybe that you know, because we both and I both come from publishing backgrounds, so for us that's quite important. Um but I I think that's really important. So that's what I kind of think of when I think about minimal editorial standards, you know, to m to make sure that we're keeping to those basics.

SPEAKER_02: 49:37

Um Taz, what else do you want to say? Um, I think I think that's really one to to think about, you know, that even the big publishers, you know, your your your Penguin, Random House, HarperCollins, and stuff, they will have books out there with errors in it. In fact, the first book I wrote that went through a mainstream publisher, i.e., that I was contracted to write, had a couple of errors in it. And I remember talking to the editing team, they're feeling absolutely appalling. And they went, Taz, can we just tell you what percentage of books go out where the first edition has errors in it? And I went, What? And they went 100%. There's so many there are statistics on this that we could share with people if they wanted to, but effectively, you're always gonna get them.

SPEAKER_01: 50:16

And that's also that's not to say, because particularly as being neurospicy, if we you know, on those occasions when we do spot those, if that's been anything within our sphere, we've we've all had that oh no moment. And it happens, you know, you've got to be real with it. But equally, there's things you can do to help yourself minimalise that, minimise that minimalise. Minimise. I'm doing that again with me weird words, Taz. Um, so what about what else then? Is there anything else around ego system publishing that we need to?

SPEAKER_02: 50:46

Well, yeah, again, the contri the contributors paying for prestige, but they're not actually getting the coaching support uh to make sure they're also building their their writing style, I guess, and getting the best support there. Um and you know, they pay to be in a book, but then the book doesn't go anywhere. It's a bit like getting a load of leaflets printed, then leaving them in a desk drawer and wondering why nobody's acting on them.

SPEAKER_00: 51:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 51:08

So if you're gonna just pay to be in something, but then there's not gonna be any marketing or promotion afterwards, and you're not gonna get anything other than your name on a book, you might as well just pay to print a big leaflet and do it yourself. Yeah. Um and again, we talked about this earlier, credit ambiguity.

SPEAKER_01: 51:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 51:24

So buy Fred blogs when actually it's by 17 other people that have got their name hidden in the small print somewhere. You know, it's it's that if six people built the book, six people built the book.

SPEAKER_01: 51:35

Yeah, exactly. That um and it's at those standards, it's not about it's not we talked about elitism, didn't we, earlier? But it's not about that, it's about respect, isn't it? Respect for all those involved in that project, yeah. Um, and the book that you are creating together, and that team effort thing again, which is my favourite thing, yeah, all about being part of a team. We've all got a part to play. Let's celebrate it, let's work to our best and bring out the best in each other.

SPEAKER_02: 52:02

And can we just make it absolutely clear again? There are loads of people out there running events, there are loads of people out there doing online stuff, there are loads of people out there running book collabs. Exactly. We're not talking about any one in particular here. These are just generic comments based on what Ash and I have seen after spending many decades, not only just in the coaching arena, but also in the publishing arena.

SPEAKER_01: 52:24

Because we are old, we're getting on a bit now.

SPEAKER_02: 52:26

We are how old am I now? I've been in publishing. I went into publishing at 16. I know, and you're now 52. 51, no, 52 in April.

SPEAKER_01: 52:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 52:35

Um, so yeah, it's we've seen a lot of this shit. We're not thinking about any one in particular here. Let's make that absolutely clear.

SPEAKER_01: 52:42

Yeah, that's really important to say that.

SPEAKER_02: 52:43

Um, there is another sign of an ego system, and again, I've seen this play out so many times, not just but with me, but with clients as well, and people don't talk about this one, and it's when somebody steps out of a space they've been part of, and instead of saying something like, I respect your decision, or you know, well done, or thank you for being with us, the response is something along the lines of Well, I know you got X amount from being here. Ooh, out It's like ownership language, yeah. Growth is not a debt, opportunity is not ownership, and frankly, if somebody builds relationships or momentum inside a space, that's how ecosystems work. Nobody uses no nobody owns that.

SPEAKER_00: 53:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 53:23

So yeah, if you're if you join a networking group and if you leave because it no longer aligns for whatever reason, wouldn't it be bizarre for somebody at the top of that group to say, well, you got clients from here, so you owe us? It's not how growth works, is it?

SPEAKER_01: 53:37

No, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 53:38

So if you if you run any kind of community or networking group or anything like that, if somebody leaving feels like a threat, you are not building community, you are building control.

SPEAKER_01: 53:49

Oh, that's a good one. That is a good one. And we've all felt that. We've been in spaces where that's happened and we've seen it happen in Panel.

SPEAKER_00: 53:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 53:56

And that for us as people organising, you know, at the head of communities or, you know, leading communities, that's a challenge for all of us to stay in that space, isn't it? To make it, you know, absolutely um something where people can feel able that they move on to grow and to go elsewhere to to go into the next whatever they're doing next. But it doesn't mean we have to leave under a cloud or anything else, or no, you know, that's it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 54:22

I mean, the the the ecosystem responses will be something like, you know, I'm glad you really got glad you got value. I'm wishing you well. If we can help in future, you know where we are, let's stay in touch. You know, no commentary on their income, their client wins, or or or anything else they've got. Whereas that unhealthy response will be things like, well, you got work from this, or I know who you're coaching, that's also in this community. Anything that implies debt or loyalty obligation or or surveillance energy. Surveillance watching what you do, and they're watching to see if you're working with anybody else in that group.

SPEAKER_01: 54:55

Oh crumbs, that's such a horrible thing to go down, isn't it? Because then if you get stuck in that one, then you're gonna be in a I've experienced that energy.

SPEAKER_02: 55:04

And I know that several of my clients have experienced we've all been there though. I think we probably have. And again, without naming any names, there's loads of different groups, organisations people have been part of, you know. But the same token though, the the flip is also true. I had someone a while back who was saying that they'd paid to be part of this uh quite an elite group for quite a long time. And you know, the person who ran the group was always giving them support and lifting them and contributing to the LinkedIn post, for instance, and the second I stopped paying them, they stopped supporting me. Well, yeah. Oh my goodness, I was under contract with this garage, and part of the contract was that they MOT'd and serviced my car and did anything wrong with it. And the second I stopped paying and it was out of warranty, do you know they wouldn't repair my car for free? How very dare they! For goodness sake, there has to be a balance, you know. If that person suddenly cut you off and excommunicated you, that's one thing. But if they stop providing the services that you were getting, or the the kind of soft services that you were getting, for want of a better term, as part of that membership. Yeah. If you stop getting those when you're not part of that membership, well, yeah, otherwise, how is it f fair to the members who are paying? There's balance, there's a flip on that as well, isn't it? But it's it's when you deliver value with something, it doesn't create lifetime ownership and you know, don't make it unassailable.

SPEAKER_01: 56:28

It's when we you know make it all personal, it's all about isn't it? That that's a really dangerous one to go down. So, okay, what else, Taz? Anything else that we need to mention? Yeah, we need to be wrapping this up because we're on 51 minutes already. It was your rant earlier that did. It's my passion. It is your passion. I like it.

SPEAKER_02: 56:46

We haven't ranted for a while, actually. It's overdue for a rant. Yeah. I think one of the one of the things that we both want to say that we talked about before we went on air with this is that when you spot something that you think might be an ego system, it's really important to say that it is not always malicious. Sometimes it can be a bit like the event organisers we mentioned earlier, who've come into the event space and seen other people, you know, charging for things that they're maybe for me to be in integrity and good ethics shouldn't be charging for.

SPEAKER_00: 57:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 57:15

Um and just see that as the norm.

SPEAKER_00: 57:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 57:17

Um, it can be a fear of scarcity where they're desperate to just get every bit of cash they can. It can maybe they've got debt pressure, maybe they have insecurity masking as authority, which is why they're not going to get the big sponsors because they don't know how to contact them, or they're they've they feel that they're they're too small a player to be going to swim with the big fish, whatever it might be. Maybe it might be they don't know how to approach bigger sponsors, for instance, for instance. Maybe they might be mistaking hierarchy for leadership and they've not stopped to think about it. It's that small or you know, point to the top pyramid thinking that can feel really powerful. Until it all collapses.

SPEAKER_01: 57:56

Until it collapses. It's a bit like that. It's a very small point to balance on, isn't it? It really is. And that could be that could be really painful if you slip. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 58:03

All these people balancing on one foot trying to balance on the top of the pyramid. If you sit down on the hold down, that reminds me of something that happened to one of my one of my classmates at primary school.

SPEAKER_01: 58:13

How did you get from that to that?

SPEAKER_02: 58:14

Because at primary school, you know those those geometry 3D shapes you used to get? Oh no, don't. Somebody dropped a pyramid on their chair and they sat down on it and ended up having to go to the hospital and getting stitches.

SPEAKER_01: 58:26

Did they find the pyramid? Yes. Thank you. Just checking. Honestly. It was horrible. No, sorry, I'm not making that. It was just kind of very strange visual then. But anyway, okay so See, we've been really serious through all of this and then. And then also we're off topic. I know, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 58:43

Anyway, on with the show. Now we want to hear from you. How do you feel about some of the topics we've discussed in this episode? I know this one will ruffle feathers, but again, we're in the final five episodes of this particular series. We are going again, don't worry.

SPEAKER_01: 58:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 58:57

Um don't be relieved. Um we're really nailing our flag to the masts now.

SPEAKER_01: 59:02

We are. It feels really important. We're coming towards the end of our first series, and we really want to start talking about our values, our beliefs, what you know, and really putting ourselves out there. So we know it's going to ruffle feathers. I've got to be honest, I'm a little bit nervous about it, but we talked about it before we came on here. We made notes on this ages ago. Yeah. And we've been sitting on it for quite a while, and then with stuff coming up for both of us at the moment, I just said we said today, let's do it. So we are sitting at home recording this while it's fresh in our minds and things. Um I was looking at notes that we wrote quite a few weeks ago. Exactly, but this has always stayed with us throughout. So I think this is a perfect way to kind of start talking about things that mean a lot to us and from our own life and work experiences. So we're going to start doing more of this, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02: 59:46

And again, these are kind of um outlines if you like. This is a guide. No, no, this is actually set in stone. So of course there's going to be, you know, there's there's going to be movement on either side of this. There's always going to be uh exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, I think with these these would be hills that we would die on. Yeah. Okay, so we hope you've enjoyed. Yeah, a bit different to last week.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:10

Absolutely. Yeah, Asher hasn't been reversing in this one. No, I've just yeah, I've just been sitting here on the sofa enjoying myself really and listening to you get really passionate again, which is good to hear. And vice versa. Well, yeah, it's good, it's important stuff. But we'd love to hear from you. Please send us your views in as well, because we'd love to hear from you so we can carry on the discussion.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:27

Remember, you can now find Awesome Off Topic on Facebook and on Instagram. It will turn up on TikTok and LinkedIn and at some point too. It's also on Threads, so come and find us there and talk to us. Exactly. But until next time, we will see you next Tuesday.