🎙️ S2 E18: Lost in Translation 2 - WTF Is Success Amnesia?

Over-explaining, avoiding eye contact, doodling through meetings, asking a relentless stream of “why” questions… these can look like bad manners or insecurity, but they can also be signs of a neurodivergent brain working hard to connect, regulate, and be understood. We talk candidly about the moments that get misread most often, and how quickly a well-meant attempt at clarity can be mistaken for defensiveness or “making it all about me”. 

We also get into the hidden mechanics of masking and “performing listening” versus actually listening. If you’ve ever been told you look bored while you’re concentrating, or you’ve felt pressure to nod and maintain eye contact at the cost of processing what’s being said, you’ll recognise this. We share why fidgeting, stimming, looking away, or even quietly crocheting can help attention, and how a simple shift in interpretation can make workplaces, friendships, and group spaces far more accessible. 

Then we move into success amnesia, the frustrating experience of remembering your achievements as facts but not being able to feel them as confidence. We explore how rejection sensitive dysphoria, criticism, and old shame can become “doom leaders”, why this is not the same as imposter syndrome, and what actually helps: keep your evidence visible with a brag file, a praise jar, or our favourite idea, a “brag flag”. If any of this hits home, subscribe, share the episode with someone who needs a kinder lens, and leave us a review to help more people find the show.

Transcript

Welcome And Quick Recap

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to Awesomely Off Topic. Books, brands, business, and everything else we're not supposed to say out loud. I'm Tad and Asha. Now let's get into it. So on last week's Awesomely Off Topic, we were talking about all the things about neurodivergence that a lot of neurotypical people misunderstand or get wrong. And to be fair, a lot of people who are neurodivergent misunderstand them as well. We ran out of road when we were recording that one, so we said we'd carry on this week. And I promise next week we're going to be back to like proper business stuff or something. Not that this isn't proper business stuff. Of course it does. Of course it does. It's massively, massively important. So we were talking yesterday. Well, we recorded it yesterday, but for last week's podcast, we were talking about things like interrupting. We were talking about things like what else were we talking about yesterday, Ash?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Oh Taz, don't ask me that. You didn't deprect me about this until I'm gonna go. Okay. We're talking about how quickly we forget what we're about to say. We were exactly don't put me on the spot like that. I was ready to I was in somewhere else in my head then.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Not being able to hold on to one thread of conversation at the same time, how difficult it can be, and there's a prime example. That is a prime example.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

We talked about loads of stuff. Interrupting, we talked about, like I'm interrupting you now. Even though we've just said interrupting, not listening properly, and then saying the same thing a couple of seconds later. This is getting worse by the minute. I'm just going to be quiet for a minute and let you leave.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

We talked about the tendency that we have to jump in and explain when we went through something similar, when people can think that we're trying to make it all about us, when in fact we're trying to relate to people. So, what are the things we didn't cover? Over-explaining.

Why Over-Explaining Starts

SPEAKER_01 1:41

We started to touch on over-explaining, but we didn't really get time to go there. So, Ash, I'm going to throw that one back over to you, because you are like the champion of over-explaining.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

I don't know what you mean. What do you want me to talk about? Over-explaining. Over-explaining how I over-explain. Is that my chance to do that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Well, I mean, it often comes, doesn't it, from a history of being kind of disbelieved or misunderstood or accused of lying or being lazy or all of those things. So we start.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Exaggerating as well, over-exaggerating things.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

We start to kind of preload the evidence before anybody asks for it, just in case.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Yeah. Oh god, I've had loads I've had loads of moments like that. Just horrendous moments where it's it's you I suppose some of it is very often if you feel on the back foot and you feel a bit under pressure, so you or you're trying to avoid what you perceive as could be some conflict. You know, so that's another one where I've got I've got to kind of defend myself here, I've got to explain it. So hopefully people who understand me a bit more, they'll be a bit more sympathetic. And actually, sometimes you can just open up a can of worms even deeper, can't you? And things things like that. I do that all the time.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Oh, we try not to create confusion and then actually create confusion by explaining too much.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

I think I've done that quite well so far in the first two minutes of this podcast, so I'm doing quite well.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

It kind of comes out of that idea though, isn't it, that if I explain everything to you, you can't possibly misjudge me. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Do you think it's yeah, I think so. Oh, it's just it's a self-defence mechanism for me. You know, if you can explain it, and hopefully people are going to be a bit more on your side, a bit more understanding, and you're gonna kind of dissolve any potential conflict or any sense of that. And we have a very finely tuned, I know I certainly do, that fight or flight thing going on as well, which often will make me think about things in that way and think, how can I dissolve this? How can I, you know, make this a bit easier? And so I panic and then I go and far, you know, far over-explain more than I need to.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

That also can tie into the kind of justice sensitivity that a lot of neurodivergent people have as well, isn't it? That real sense of justice and right over wrong and well, whether it's also whether it's other people that we feel are being unfairly judged about something, that really can hit us. And so that justice sensitivity, because we know that being wrongly accused of something feels almost physically unbearable. Well, that's so true. Yeah. That's another reason we over explain, isn't it, to try and ensure against that.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Yeah, because it can be a real physical reaction. Yeah. It's you can feel like I I mean I personally I can feel it as like somebody I mean, not that I've ever been hopefully it'll never happen, being punched in the chest or in the gut. Yeah, punched in the feels. Yeah, it's you we s use that that phrase all the time, don't we? Yeah. Being punched, punched in the feels, and it does feel like a physical thing. And it can be really, really debilitating and re really scary too. So yeah, anything to avoid those sort of potential moments of stress and anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

I guess a lifetime of masking as well will play into play into it, aren't it? Because we've we've kind of learned that our natural short answers can sometimes get rid of get read as kind of blunt or or rude. So we pad it out a bit.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

That's so true. Because we were talking about that in the last episode, weren't we? Talking about that bluntness that we were joking about a little bit. And using a little bit more blunt than me per se. But I go to the sledgehammer. And I do the padding out thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

You know, and again, I always I I jokingly refer to it as I often use it to describe the difference with us where we say you're a newswriter, I'm a feature writer.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

So I go into more detail and I expand on stuff. But actually a lot of the time, yeah, I'm padding it out because I'm trying to avoid any really difficult, sticky moments of are they gonna like me, are they not gonna like me, are they gonna you know, understand me or misunderstand me. So I need to be really clear in that. But in trying to be clear, sometimes the opposite happens.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Well, that's the irony, isn't it? The more we kind of try and explain things, the more people can think we're being defensive or hiding something, which triggers even more. In fact, you've done that to me so many times. What do you mean? We think lady protests too much when you know you've c come up with a a theory about something that's been entirely wrong. You've gone, no, I haven't done anything like that. What do you think that from? And then you'll go, We think lady protests too much.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah, I'm almost looking for a a chink in the armour that's not there. Yeah. And it's like, and you know, all the narratives that's been in inverted combus spum. Yeah, and I do I have done that in the past and I can still do it. And usually that's one of the signs for me if I'm not in a good space and I need to take some time, take a breath. Yeah. And there's those three words again we use a lot, where's your evidence?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah. So

Reassurance That Stops The Spiral

SPEAKER_01 6:15

what what can help with it? What can help us to not have to feel that we've got to over-explain everything?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

I think reassurance in terms of people saying, you know, I believe you. You don't need to justify that. You've been given permission almost to to stop and and stop doing that. You don't need to go into all that great, you know, great detail and over-explanation.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Which is at the risk of splitting hair is quite different to why are you trying to justify it?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Which puts me back into the defensive. Oh yeah, and that that's a very different feeling, isn't it? Yeah. As you said, even the way you said that then, I'm sure any listeners listening now can feel the difference in that statement. So yeah, that's it's about truly being feeling that you're being listened to. And that people do believe you and heard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Truly heard. Yeah. And we always say, don't we, we talk about that, you know, we always say we're great listeners, but are we really, you know? And it's that thing, it's there's degrees of listening. And you if somebody comes out with a statement like, I believe you, that's those again three words that are so powerful.

Listening Without Performing Listening

SPEAKER_01 7:17

So what are some of the other neurodivergent traits, habits, behaviours that can get misread, Ash? What else would you add to the list?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

I think sometimes people think you're not really listening, so therefore, or you're not interested. So when actually you could be really concentrated. Because you know, facial expressions can be really misconstrued, misunderstood. You know, people think, oh, if you I don't know, for instance, if you've got a blank look on your face, we use that quite a bit, don't we? Use it in a comical way sometimes. Yeah, they've got a blank look in their face, obviously a bit stupid or a bit not quite with it. But actually, sometimes for a lot of people, neurodivergence community, members of I know for me, that can often be when you are actually focusing and concentrating. Yeah. You know, and there's various explanations and and degrees of explanation around that and why that happens, which I'm no expert on. I know from listening to others and my own experiences, is that very often if I'm dinner, I am actually focusing. It's just that it's it's not a disinterested face, it's a disinterested face, it's uh actually quite the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Is that because because the way our brains are wired, there's two separate things going on. There's the actual act of listening, yeah, and then there's performing listening, making it trying to make it look as though we're listening.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Yes, and that's isn't it? A learnt behaviour, that's something that we've experienced. I know we've watched from our peers what they do. We copy, yeah, we mask, we copy, don't we? We we look at others, we focus on other people, what they're doing, the nodding, the eye the eye movement, the head movement of the other.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

So all the time we're trying to nod or make icon on top to go mm-hmm. Yes, we are nodding a lot at the moment, that's what she's a bit Well that's extra processing power, and if you're having a particularly bad day, it might be that you you're you're filtering those out because you'd rather just spend your energy actual actually on the words rather. I know it sounds really simple, but it is almost as if our operating system split listening and performing listening into two different tasks.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Yeah, it's almost like shut down that bit because we don't in the same way that if you've got a car that's you've got a what does it mean it's both electric and hybrid, it's almost like a hybrid thing, isn't it? Yeah. So you can shut down, so we'll use that bit now, we'll use the electric bit because we don't need to use the petrol.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

It's like in Star Trek, I have to have to take some of the power away from the shields to add it to the engine.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of thing. So it's exactly that. And I think you can and what I I find really fascinating is what, and for years, I used to get really embarrassed about it when I was working, you know, with corporates and incorporate and all the rest of it, as a journalist going into lots of businesses, a B2B, business to business journalist. And I'd be sitting there and I'd find myself in a meeting and I'd be doodling like mad. Sometimes that could be a check-in out, but equally, sometimes that could be the opposite. And actually, I was finding I was able to take in more while drawing circles or triangles or whatever it may be, or a silly cartoon face, than if I was sitting there just making notes. Does that make any kind of sense? Yeah. But that's quite different.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

That's quite different though, to the time generally. Not sure how many podcasts back when we were talking about when you were going through your breakdown burnout, yeah, and you just make the same note over and over and go over the same outline in your notebook to make it look like you were taking notes when in fact you were so overwhelmed you couldn't take anything in at all. So not the same thing. No. But yeah, the doodling, fidgeting, looking away. It's one of the things that works for us in circle because when we're on on the 30-month on the big one and on the on our three one, the three-year um tribe, imaginatively called the bigger one, started out as a joke and then it kind of.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Ironically, it's actually smaller because there's less people in it. But it's a longer time period.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

And also confusingly, it's more than three years.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

It carries on for three terms of the big one, but there's three months in between everyone. How about that over-explaining? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There we go again. Yeah.

Fidgeting Stimming And Eye Contact

SPEAKER_01 11:07

So when we're teaching people to listen in talking stick rounds, which is where everyone has the chance to speak without interruption, you know, the the old people are ancestors and still some indigenous peoples today won't look directly at the person speaking. They'll be looking at the candle in the centre of the altar, they might be looking at their feet, and it's because they are actively tuning all their senses on listening for the truth and the heart of what's being spoken rather than di distracting themselves by paying attention elsewhere. So that can actually be a really good tool lesson for us because we aren't expected to sit and make eye contact with everyone.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

That's why I love it. I mean, I love it anyway. I love being in that space because of the peas and the qu and all of that beautiful thing, the coming together as as a group of people, but also for that very reason, because it I there's not pressure to make that eye contact, you can just focus in on that candle or the centre of the altar or whatever, and just focus in.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Unless we're running an exercise where you actually have to go and make eye contact purposely.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Yes, but but that also but that also explains why some of those exercises I find quite challenging. Yeah. Yeah, which ties into some of the stuff we were talking about in the last episode.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

And again, with the doodling and the fidgeting, you know, it's not unusual for someone in our in our circle. There's quite a few people who are neurodivergent sitting in our circle, not by design, it's just happened that way. And quite a few of them will have fidgets where every now and then we'll have to remind them that it really should be a silent fidget toy. Um and there's one member, one of our wisdom keepers, who's been in circle with us for many, many years, who will often sit and silently crochet. And it's not because she's not paying attention, quite the opposite, it's to help her pay attention. She's not following a pattern or making anything in particular, she's just doing the stitches because it helps to pay attention. And that goes into stimming, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

It's the same thing now. You know, a stim is something that we sometimes it's it's a nervous thing, sometimes it's something we inadvertently do to keep our hands busy and keep another part of our brain busy while we concentrate on something else. Yeah, one of my terrible ones I've got at the minute, because it's it's hot weather while we're recording this, I'm wearing shorts a lot, and I'm finding that I'm without thinking about it, kind of picking holes in the backs of my thighs.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

And I said to you only today, I said, Taz, think about your your fidget toys. What can you use to with that stimming to help?

SPEAKER_01 13:26

I don't know when I'm doing it, but it's shorts weather at the minute, it's not a good look. Yeah, I don't know I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

But I I think also as well, it's that we often think, don't we, that when we're if we're not kind of masking and acting performatively, i.e. trying to engage and make that eye contact and do all those.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Performing engagement rather than just engaging.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Actually, neurotypical people should see that almost as as as comfort and trust. We we've got we're we're you know, we're having we've got that with them. I mean we feel comfortable enough.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

We say they should take it that way, but they don't know, nobody's teaching them these things.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

I know, but I think that's a really important point because they should see that as a wonderful thing that people feel comfortable enough to be like and to be to unmasked.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Yeah, we weren't suddenly born, or suddenly we didn't suddenly wake up one day and decide to be neurodivergent. It's always been there, even before we were diagnosed.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

But before diagnosing. I haven't. Yeah, but we know, don't we? Okay, can't we? What you mean? I have been diagnosed, which of course means I'm now clinically qualified to diagnose everybody else. Yeah, of course you are, Taz.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Anyway, we shouldn't listen to that. Please don't take that seriously.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

No, I'm taking the Mickey out of myself and I have this habit for to spot it everywhere, even if it's not. What was I gonna say then? Even before we'd been diagnosed, if we'd been sitting there and somebody was talking, supposed to be listening, but they were fiddling with their pen or clicking their pen in and out, or you know, scribbling on their pad or scrolling on their phone, we'd have probably thought the same. That's bloody rude. I pay attention, that's rude, and yet now I can look at it in a completely different way.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Me too. It's been really enlightening for me the more I've learnt about the neurodivergent community because it's because now so many times there's actually a little bit of guilt around there where I've actually, yes, I've pulled people up on it in group settings, but now I'm thinking, Chris, now I understand that a bit more, and now I can have that, you know, understanding. And it makes such a difference, doesn't it? To those environments where you do see people that are doing that, and you that's not the immediate thought, which is really good.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

And back to the eye contact thing again, for for some people with neurodivergence who are neurodivergent, eye contact can actively interfere with processing speech, particularly for some autistic people. Look looking away is helping them listen.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Yeah, and again, that comes back to certainly on the what on the 13 month program. I know I do that quite a bit, and it's usually because I am really trying to take it in. I know it's something really important I'm trying I'm trying to kind of really focus in on, and that helps me if I'm not worrying about where I'm looking, which is what uh we were talking about yesterday, talking about where on the face, you know, different parts of the face that people you're you know, in the past people have been advised to look at either lips or forehead or whatever. And if that's actually sometimes just looking away is not I'm not interested in you, I don't want to talk to you, because as I said in last episode as well, I was always taught, you know, you never have your back to somebody that's so rude. So therefore I'm very conscious of that. So I'm masking like goodness knows what, but also sometimes just looking away just for a few seconds. I don't know how to describe it, it's almost like the fog lifts a bit, and I can really tune in.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

It's a

Noting Practice To Refocus Attention

SPEAKER_01 16:32

bit like noting, isn't it? So one of the exercises that comes from old medicine traditions, I think I was first learned taught it by Chris Lutterchell way back in the day, is noting. So the exercise where essentially you give yourself a task to think about one particular topic and to focus on that one topic.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

And every time you catch your brain moving away from it, rather than a rather than following the train of thought, you just label it that's a thought or that's a feeling, let it go, and bring your attention back to what you're supposed to be focusing on. So if you set a timer for, say, 30 seconds and say, right, for these 30 seconds, I am just going to focus on the the second hand ticking round on the timer if it's that kind of timer. Or for these 30 seconds, I'm just going to focus on my breath. I'm breathing in, I'm breathing out, I'm breathing in, I'm breathing out. And every time another thought comes in, just spot it, let it go, and bring yourself back. And eventually, I don't think it necessarily stops us entirely, but it certainly has helped me to notice more when my brain is when my mind starts to wander, and to just go, oh no, bring it back.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

So I think there are disciplines that we can learn that can help, but it's not as if we can suddenly, you know, practice something like noting for five minutes and then suddenly have a neurotypical brain. It just doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

I it's really interesting you say that because I know you've helped me a lot with that over the last, particularly over the last couple of two or three years. And just doing that, I've only done that perhaps, I don't know, a dozen times or so. But it's it's really helped, as you said, just to bring you back on track, even if it's just to help you notice when you're doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Because that's the trouble. We don't notice when our brain's gone off over on a on a side quest. Or squirrel.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

We don't know. You'll you'll notice listeners are doing that on here all the time. I'm sure they do.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Or somebody off topic exactly why we've called our podcast what we've called it. Yeah. For that reason, and probably why some of our episodes are so long. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Or so short.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

The the challenge with this, I think, as someone who who sometimes struggles with these things myself is when you've you've been spending so much of your energy trying to make sure that you're listening to someone and paying full attention, and then part way through they'll go, Well, you're clearly not interested. Midway through your deepest bit of concentration ever, they're clocked that you're not staring directly into their eyes and think you're not listening when in fact it's the opposite. So, you know, we kind of need to learn to flip that. You know, if a neurodivergent person stops performing engagement around you, there's a there's a cut there's comfort in trusting that. It's not a thing earlier, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 19:06

It's not boredom, it's about them really trying to tune in with you. Yeah, and I well, we touched on that earlier, didn't we? And I know I've been guilty of that with you. I I know I have. I've you've been in full, you know, full flow, or I've been in full flow, and then I've thought you've you've come out, you've zoned out, and I've got really arsy with you because you know she's not paying attention again.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

But the flexing can also happen, can't it? So we've both had this as well, where the blank look's been there, but something's just saying they've wandered off somewhere. And you might still be paying attention, but you're paying attention to something else now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have to go, you weren't listening to that, were you? And go, what, what, what? We'll both do it.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah, the chances are at the moment, listeners, as you've probably, if you've been listening to the previous episode, it'd probably be something to do with hedgehogs. But there you go. I'm sure it'll be something else soon. Yeah. Yeah, my wife often says I don't listen to her and something else as well. Hedgehogs and football, football and Ted Lasso, which is back next month, and I cannot wait because it's a women's theme this time. Anyway, we don't you know I've told myself over there, Taz.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

What else are some of the behaviours that neurotypical people might not quite understand in neurodivergent

Hyperempathy And Awkward Silence

SPEAKER_01 20:09

people? And again, neurodivergent people might not understand either. I've been there. What about expressing empathy in kind of different ways to the norm as it might be expected?

SPEAKER_00 20:22

I think there's sometimes a challenge around empathy. I would say I'm really emp empathetic. Is that the right word? Yes. Is it is that the right word? I'm having a moment. There's empathetic and there's empathic, two different things. But I think sometimes it can feel overwhelming with the amount of empathy.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

That's the stereotype, isn't it? Where a lot of people will think about particularly autistic people, will think they just don't have any empathy, they can't feel. And it's not that at all. It's sometimes it can sometimes they can have too much and it just overwhelms them into absolute silence or awkwardness.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

It's almost like that. How to respond to that? How do you think that's what you want to do?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

How to process it differently.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's that's one of the challenges, isn't it? That if you're feeling that overwhelm, because it is so much, so much to take in, so much to feel, to actually feel that.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Some of those emotions and to share that with the person that's sharing with you. Yeah. It can be a moment where there is that moment of not checking out at all, but it's just a s a silence around what's been said.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

There's it's a translation failure again, isn't it? Yeah. Lost in translation again. It's not kind of some one-way deficit, it's just a two-way. Oh, that could be a name of the podcast has been translation. Oh, like the last one.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Lost in Translation 2. Oh, did we have that? Oh, crumbs.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yes, we spent quite a while discussing it.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Oh, yeah, we did, didn't we? That's why it sounds familiar.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Well we had to change behaviours to traits because behaviors was too long on the line, that was to neurodivergent. Over explaining. Sorry. And get back in the room.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

I'm back in the room, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

So how how do neurotypic neurodivergent people sometimes display care then? So sometimes we'll show care through doing.

unknown 22:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Through solving the problem. Send uh sending the link or turning up with food rather than saying some s some throwing out some expected kind of soothing words. It's a different love language.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah, that's so true. I sometimes think the words I choose, sometimes I think, oh crumbs, that was a bit it was a bit of a cliche. That was a bit, you know, it sounds a bit like a the words in a b in a card, you know, like in deeper sympathy. It's almost like, you know, you're you're collecting these little phrases, yeah, and then you'll go, oh, that didn't feel right. That sounded disingenuous. Did that be right?

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah. By the same token, sometimes with people I have that that closeness with, I can care so much that sometimes I worry that I'm being overbearing. Okay. You know, sometimes I was I had this conversation with I think Erin before the last circle, the crochet lady we were talking about earlier. Just so look, I'm feeling really protective towards you.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Erin never thought she'd be known as the crochet lady.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

The crochet lady.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Hi, Erin, if you're listening. Well, no, because we'll get it back for that.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

I was talking to you before Circling saying I feel I'm feeling really, really protective towards you about this weekend. There's a real maternal thing coming on. Yeah. So for goodness sake, if I'm overbearing or suffocating, please tell me. Yeah. You know, because otherwise I'll either be hugging you all the time or being so self-aware of it that I'll be at the opposite side of the room, kind of going, no, don't come near me. Oh, okay. So that's why I said, look, just come and sit next to me in circle if you need to, and if you need to lean in on that. But but yeah, sometimes we can display it too much. I can go, you know, I don't have kids that don't have fur, don't have werewolves. Um, but I can there there are some people where I can get really, really that kind of maternal instinct protective and supportive of. It's like, I haven't birthed you, why am I having these feelings? But maybe that's part of just feeling big emotions and being in tune with people and the empathy thing, picking up on where somebody else might be as well. Where you almost can almost feel that feels really awful for you. Let me let me share that with you, let me take some of that, let me help you channel that through.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

It's an interesting one, isn't it? Because it really is a it's a two-way thing, it can go either way.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Yeah. And sometimes we can also, I guess, go really quiet because we're feeling something so strongly we can't kind of find a socially acceptable script to go with it.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Well that that's turned ties into, thank you, that's the phrase I'm looking for. You know, with with the what I was saying about the in deeper sympathy thing, yeah. You're trying to look for something that is, as you said, socially acceptable, but is still coming from the heart, i.e. your heart, not sounding like it's just been on rape.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Because do you ever feel like there just aren't big enough words to convey it? Yeah. So things like in deeper sympathy, or I'm so sorry for your loss, or that well They become so rote, they're just there aren't there are not adequate words to convey how much you want to be able to support somebody who is, for instance, grieving. The words don't exist. I can sometimes feel a real loss there because I can't find a way to convey the depth of feeling to that other person.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

That was Bailey's sigh, by the way. Not Bailey. Bailey was sighing. But that's the other thing. I think I find myself in that space. Sometimes I find it quite hard to be physical, i.e., to give somebody a hug. And yet people tell me I give them the greatest hugs. You do, because you give proper full body. In those moments, often when I feel like that, there's not there are not adequate words to convey what I want to convey or what I want how I want to support that individual, then that hug for me says Yeah, it's the best you can do. It's the best that I can do, and and it feels and it feels right.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

And there is a name for this as well, isn't it? When we feel too much, it's called hyperempathy. Yeah. Hyper empathy, it's it's almost as if you're absorbing other people's moods. But for some people it could be, I don't know, crying at news stories or at the Andrax puppy on advertising.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

The thing is, we make particular if it's anything to do with animals, I'm gone. I mean, you know, I love humans too, but it's always an animal thing. I can be watching what's the Channel 4 thing with when they rescued, you know, they get re-homed dogs. Yeah. And that, I just watch a clip of that online and suddenly I can be 30 seconds in and cry my eyes on it.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Because sometimes it can be things like embarrassment. So if we think about something like X Factor, the only bit of that I could be bothered with would have been the auditions part.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Oh, I hate that.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

And that's the bit you can't watch. I can't, I have to. Because it's almost like you can feel a stranger's embarrassment physically.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah, it just it makes me absolutely it makes my skin crawl. Literally, it's like a well my handboard over my ears. Because I I can't, I don't I can't get involved in it. Yeah. Because I'm like, you know, come on, be you know, realistic here. It's not me. You can see by other people's reactions to it, and the thought that somebody we're laughing at somebody else's expense, that I cannot abide it. It makes me really oh uncomfortable, really uncomfortable. I love watching the clips when there's somebody comes on comes onto the stage and they're they look, you know, very ordinary inverticomas, and then they'll come out with this incredible voice or this act that's amazing, and you know, and everybody's woofing and hollering, that's fine, but that bit I'd be rather watching for the pleasant surprises than the ones that are uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

When the ones that the the cringe worthy ones come on, I'm like, oh, who has put you forward for this? Who is it? Why has nobody had a word with you? Especially if you know, well, my grandma put me forward for it.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

It's like, is your grandma profanely deaf? Or have you got no have you got no friends? Because if you I got a mate, I'd hope they'd say to me, Look, you know, you're alright, but honestly, uh do you really think you're gonna do as well as you hope with that? And what are you gonna gain from it?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

The exception to the rule that makes me laugh every time, and it might be insensitive, but that famous clip of the woman trying to sing was it Marikari Yeah be da ba poo It's not completely just made up words, not what makes me laugh. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's fabulous. Okay, so apart from that, what else? That actually this also ties back into what we were saying on the last week's episode, wasn't it, about where we start to share our own comparable story. Oh yeah. That also ties into this because that's kind of empathy in our own language we're showing to relate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what else?

The Hidden Cost Of Questions

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Questions, questions, so many questions. We can, even though Ash and I are both former journalists, yeah, if we go into over-questioning, that's not necessarily because of that, it's because we're really interested. You know, we can we ask questions because we want to properly understand, and I really like to get into the detail, it's how I engage with something I really, really care about. Yeah. It's like go deep or go home.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

But there's also that element of it's also there's a sense of masking in that too, though, in those questions, because all the time I know that as much as yes, I'm absolutely with you on that, I do that a lot of the time. But it can also sometimes, without if we're aware of it or not, it can sometimes be a way of we can hide behind those questions so we put the spotlight back on the other person rather than it coming back to us. I've I think that can be something sometimes if I'm feeling a little bit unnerved.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Yeah, I don't like in a networking meeting as well, and if you're having a one-to-one.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

In an unfamiliar environment. So, for instance, that wouldn't happen on something like our 13-month programme or any of our programs where we're kind of leading it or whatever. Stop yawning to us midway through.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

It just means I need more oxygen.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Quit, give her an oxygen muffle. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I thought you were like doing a weird. That's another thing you'll do, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 29:45

If you see me, I'm a boring you, why are you why are you yawning? No, my body needs more oxygen.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Uh-oh. Anyway. Uh-oh. But yeah, so so that whole thing around questions is, yeah, and I think as journalists, you're right. We we are that's our comfort. Predisposed. But also, genuinely, because I'm fascinated by what's going to what's how somebody's going to reply to.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

But the danger zone to somebody being on the other end of those questions is where they can feel that we're kind of interrogating them or that we're sceptic about what they do or we're undermining them.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Whereas for us, it's like, this is fascinating. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Yeah, more information. I'm gathering. This is fab. You know, what else can you tell me?

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Why? Why can I learn? Yeah. Why is genuinely a request for information? We're not trying to challenge authority or anything like that. And that can be a really big one in workplaces and schools, can't it? Yeah. You know, the perpetual jokes about the kids who just go, why, why, why, why, why? Wonder how that sounded like the seagulls in finding Nemo, no? You did a bit.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

You did a little bit, but maybe there's another character.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Maybe there is. But I wonder how many of the kids who go through that in incessant why phase are actually neurodivergent. I don't know if all kids do it. I'd have no idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

But I wonder if it is. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

What else, Ash, on on that that point?

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Uh tumbleweed. Well, I suppose the whole why thing is we're looking for a whole picture, aren't we? Yeah. So when we get that answer through to that why question, it gives us more of a fuller picture in our minds for us to kind of start processing, understanding more about that individual that we're speaking with.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

That kind of stuff. So it I suppose it's like um Oh, I don't know. I'm gonna call I'm gonna mention this because I'm so crap at it. But we've talked about it before on here about us doing like, I don't know, flat pack furniture or something.

unknown 31:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

So it's like having so without all that depth of answer. She's just gesticulating wildly for those little.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

So you mean you keep asking questions of somebody because you're trying to get the in the the whole kind of oil painting rather than just a couple of colours in the palette.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yes, so it's a bit like, you know, one of the great minds of the city. Why do you need that though?

SPEAKER_01 31:57

And they've missed out, I don't know, the eyeballs or the why is it that you need to have that full picture though before you can kind of engage or put yourself into gear?

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Well, it just it's for me, it's re it's reassurance that we're it's the connection, it's building that connection with somebody. It's make so they're giving me that. I've got the privilege of listening to them giving me the full palette to digest. Not you want to digest a palette, but take it all in and actually benefit from their words and also connect us, it's a closer connection. Yeah, I'm learning, I'm learning more about them, also learning more about me in the way that I'm responding to it.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

See, and there's the difference again with where different people are on the spectrum. So you referred that back to like trying to build flat pack furniture without the instructions. Yeah. Whereas you wouldn't think of doing flat pack without the instructions, where I'll just start building it. And nine times out of ten, I'll have put a piece on back to front and upside down and realised too late.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

With the studio, you had a moment like that. I'll treat it like a giant jigsaw puzzle. I'd get into a panic worrying about that because then I'd be worried about because you know what happened when we did that before when I put my foot or whatever it was, my leg.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

No, it was my knee that went through it. We'd got we'd got this great big, you know, the cubic shelving units, everyone. We'd got kind of a wall-sized cubic shelving unit. It was only like an MDF one, so one that's done with the the kind of wooden plugs instead of screws and stuff. And we'd got it all together and then we needed to stand it up. And I said dowel, so that's the word I was looking for, doweling. And I said to Ash, before we lift this, are you sure you've got it? Because if you haven't got it, it's going to break all the does and it'll collapse. And she went, Yeah, yeah, I've definitely got it. And we just got past the point of no return, and she went, I haven't got it. And it just went crack, crack, crack, crack, crack, crack, crack.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Whoops.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

And all the it literally just collapsed in on itself. All the does just broke in the cavities.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

You still hear that now.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

I know. And I had to drill a load of them out. So, where you're thinking of when I was trying to drill them all out, I then knelt on it and my knee went through it in part. But luckily, the knee hole was inside the cupboard with the door on it.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

That was the knee hole. I was the arsehole for doing it. I'm saying nothing. Saying nothing. I'm sorry about that. I didn't bleep before I answer apologies, but there you go.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

We always have an explicit warning on these though we fight. And that's why we do it, not because we're particularly talking about explicit topics, but because we know we might occasionally swear. Yes, we might. We're former journos. So I suppose the what's the word, like the dichotomy or the the the double the double bind issue in this. And and this will come back to one of the other things we were talking about in last week's podcast about how many times neurodivergent kids are told that they're wrong or stupid or whatever growing up compared to neurotypical kids. We are worried that we will be labelled as difficult if we ask too many questions. But if we don't ask questions to get to the point where we fully understand it, then we might get labelled as careless if we get it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

So it's double edges. So again, the flip for anybody listening is if a neurodivergent person appears to be grilling you about your hobby, they're actually paying you a compliment.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

I like that. So you're smiling, so thank you. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

I can't imagine many people getting upset about that, because most of us are if we have a hobby, love talking about it. You know, but maybe that's a neurodivergent thing again, maybe, because if you ask me about one of my hobbies, I will just absolutely hyperfocus and geek out until the other person's glazing over.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

I do that with you with football, don't I? All the time. I mean, as much as you love football, there's degrees of, and particularly because at the moment as we record this, it's the World Cup and England are in the semi-finals playing very, very soon. Come on, we're gonna beat Argentina, hopefully. Revenge for the hand of God. I hope so. But it's yeah, so I will get geek out on that and I'll read, I'll listen to all the interviews and watch all the videos and all the film and stuff, and you know, read as much as I can about all the different players and the different, you know, tactics of the team's manager and all the rest of you know, Tommy Church.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Teradona's still alive.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

He died, didn't he? I think. Yeah, I think he did. I always say that about Bill. I'm sure he's he's passed away.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

He has I thought his True Blue album was the best one.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

They're wearing they are wearing tomorrow, they're wearing their away kit because they're superstitious. They're wearing true blue. Because every time they've beaten us in the last two World Cups, they've been wearing their dark blue kit, so they're not wearing the stripey kit they normally wear. We're all in white with our red. I know, but hopefully we'll win. But there you go. But you'll find out because by the time you listen to this, it will have already happened, so I'll either be really ecstatic for the next episode or I'll be a miserable twat. That's not very nice. Anyway, where were we, Taz?

SPEAKER_01 36:42

So, one of the other areas that you've been researching more than me, Ash, and I know you've been telling me a lot about it, but it's been a bit like listening to you about football for two and three. Yeah, I'm gonna get you to tell everybody, tell us, tell me.

Success Amnesia And Negative Anchors

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Tell us about success amnesia, because that's something you've been really researching.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Yeah, uh success amnesia is this is how how we are not able to access things that are examples of our success, uh our successes. So things that will just it's not that it's not there, it's it's that kind of ADHD outside out of mind kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Is it also the the from the way you were explaining it to me before I was listening, I promise.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

I'm impressed now.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

You're probably you're in memory more than me. It's that it's not that we can't access the memory of the success, as in you know, in our brain's filing system, it's that we find it really hard to rem to remember and embody the feelings around it. But if you compare that with how readily we can call up feelings of being less than from when we feel that we failed, what it that drastically outweighs it. So the success amnesia is when we might be able to remember the fact, but we can't remember the feeling. So, for instance, one of the examples you gave to me is you might be a best-selling author, but then you'll go, well, so what anybody can do that.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Yeah. Or I've organised two successful TEDx events, but you know, I could I could go into a third one, for instance, and it would be like in some ways, like I've never done that before. Because the saying I'd have the nerves and the convincing myself that it wouldn't be good enough and it wouldn't be a success, even though if I look back through all the lovely feedback we've had from the events, there's been nothing but positive.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Yeah, so prime example, if I look back at my first book, So Whispers from the Earth, yeah, which was one through Moon Books, that was a bestseller, did really, really well. But whenever I think about that launch, I don't think about it doing well, I don't think about going to get a getting a talking Watkins. I think about my mum telling me that it wasn't really up to par and she thought anybody could have written it, and she expected better from me.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

So I get immediate failure with that. And I could go as far as to say, I think that actually impacted the launch of More Whispers from the Earth only earlier this year or last year.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

And I know that that launch wasn't as successful because part of me kept being pulled so deeply into the shame feelings around it from the first one, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

It had really good reviews. So, really, what you're saying is that those all those kind of negative in your voted comers' memories are really they're louder, they're screaming at you, aren't you? And I feel I did.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

I don't feel the success of getting the contract in the first place. Yeah. Because it was proper in Airport's publishing deal rather than self-publishing. I don't get the success around that because when that first came through, one of my uncles told me that was pretty much deluded and nobody would be taking a a chance on a no-name like me. Quote unquote. He did apologise later when he realised the error of his ways. On my mum saying she didn't really enjoy it, mum's my mum telling me other people didn't enjoy it, that you know, it was her not wanting to come and hear me speak about it. And everything pours in to those feelings. Those feelings, I can feel them now. I feel I can just sit and cry now. But the feelings of the really good reviews, you know, talking about it in London's biggest and oldest mind, body, spirit, esoteric bookshop, you know, touring around the country with it, people ask me, asking me to come and sign it. I don't feel any of those. I've got the pictures of the memories, but I don't have positive feelings around the book. And I feel and I also feel really, really bad because I know I didn't promote the second one heavily enough, even though the publisher was right behind me. And I know I got caught, I get got embroiled in my own negative thought processes around that. I loved the book, I believed in the book, but when it came out, I just kind of wanted to hide.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Which is bonkers. But that's part of that success on issue you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Do you think also though, one of the other things I know that comes up from just reading a bit about it for me has been that once you've got, so you've got this goal, so in this case, you've got you've got your book, your goal was to publish your book, get great reviews, which you've got, and you've talked about that, and that you had fantastic. You know, focusing on the possibility. Yeah, there I go again. But once that goal is achieved, is it about you know we talk about dopamine? So is it because once that goal's achieved, the the dopamine, it's almost like, yeah, we've done that, the dopamine's there, and then it moves on to something else.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

So you You know what? I don't remember even having dopamine around that book. Okay. Because I I I genuinely think I was so embroiled in the f the negative feelings that came up from familial, particularly familiar responses to the first one. Yeah, that by the end of it I wasn't even feeling dopamine. I was just like, get it out, get it out, get it out. I almost wanted to tick the button, do what I'd been contracted to do, do what I was meant to do, and then almost pretend it hadn't happened, which is really sad because all those stories are there to help people. It's come from a really good place, it's come from my work with spirit and energy and other people who've contributed stories. You have stories in there, some of our tribes uh members have stories in there. But I felt and still now like it's like I almost want to pretend it's not there, which is horrible.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

That's awful, isn't it? So that's a real challenge, isn't it? But if you think about it in terms of whatever you're doing for work, and I'm sure there's other listeners out there that have experienced or are experiencing this right now, probably. Yeah. That you've achieved the most amazing things, and what's it like for you? Do you you know what Tuz is saying, is that kind of ringing bells for you? Is that a similar experience for you? Or how do you think about that? Please do tell us, you know, send us your your thoughts on that. We'd love to hear from you. And of course, then looking at that, then it's the day-to-day cost of that, isn't it? So, with all of that amazing success, all these wonderful things you you've written, you've done, and yeah, we talked about it earlier.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

I just remembered something else when the first one came out. I had bookshops in Canada wanting me to go out and do readings for them with it. But I don't remember any of that good feeling.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Sorry, go on. And we will talk about that and things we can do further that will help us, and this is what we need to do more of this as well. Because when we were doing a little bit of a chat before this, we talked about some things that we can do to capture the positive stuff here, to remind us of just how amazing we are and can be, and we are. So, one of the things I was going to say was that thinking about that day-to-day in work, business life, you know, that's probably why, isn't it? If you if for us when we were running a PR agency, for instance, we were my tummy's rumbling like mad, I don't know why. Walking into pitches or interviews or I don't know, negotiations over service costs and things like that. And often I'd feel like I'd go in, I'd feel like I'd never done this before. And again, I talked about this a little bit earlier, but we've both felt that, haven't we, at various times? You must have done, because I know I have. I've gone in, I thought I've sat in this situation a thousand times. Great example of this for me was every year, I've touched on this a little bit before, was I used to write a supplement for a big manufacturer. And I'd go in and it was like a 50, 60 page supplement, and I would interview all the key personnel in this business. And it would be held over two to three days. I'd stay over, I'd do all the all the work, all the groundwork, all the interviewing, writing, sub-editing, laying it out, sending it to our designers for that for our magazine. And yet every time, and I got to know these people, so I did those for about three or four years on the trot. And yet, every year, the same butterflies, I wonder if that's why my stomach's going a bit, the same butterflies, but a bit more than that, thinking, I don't know if I can do this this time. So it was almost like I was going back to where I was before, and yet all my track records were lovely, glowing reports from all these CEOs and marketing managers and various people. And yet I'd still have that same challenge every time. And I'm just wondering if it was like that for you, or if it was when you were you were working for others.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Not so much, but but then I think I'd put so much prep work into going in there feeling confident or at least displaying a mask of confidence.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Because I remember with my last corporate job, you know, there were certain clients with me where all the other team members would be pre-warning me about how terrible they were, how awful they were, how much we were hated there. And I went in there with this attitude of no, I'm going to turn this around, I'm going to make them want to advertise with us, I'm going to make them love us, and I'm going to show them that this isn't this is possible. So I didn't get that in the same way. But tying back into what I was saying about whispers, I've just been sitting thinking about all the other books that I've got out there, because I've written several, but I've got seven that are published so far. And if I think about those, the only one I happily shout about is Unleash You're Awesome. If I think about the so what mindset, that's got some brilliant anecdotes in it, some brilliant stories, and I know that just that practice can be transformative for people. And yet, because I had one person saying essentially that was a bit of shit because really you can just read the cover and know what the book's about. And because I knew that I wrote that as a bit of an up yours after being in a coaching group that I felt was a bit of a uh ploy to get everybody to buy the with quite a big business to lab, actually.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Yeah, to buy the book.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

I think I have. It was a bit of a bit of an up yours that by the sa at about the same time that the so what mind the let them theory came out. Let's just say that. Okay, yeah. So I know that the so what mindset has some really good stuff in it, it has really good reviews, and yet I find myself not wanting to push it because of one person I trusted going, yeah, not your best that one. And that didn't mean anything by it at all. It's just honest feedback. And then I think about you know, all the micro books that I've put out there. Why am I not shouting about them? A little book of provocative coaching questions, the little book of ADHD life hacks. Yeah, I've got negative anchors to that one because of things that happened at the same time that I was writing it. All the different books I've put out there, why am I not why is the only one I really shout about? Unleash your awesome. 20 plus years after I first wrote it. That's something that's really worth looking at, and that hasn't really occurred to me until we've had this discussion right now.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Ooh, good, isn't it? It's good the stuff that's coming up for us as we're chatting. Yeah. So I've got to ask though, because I think somewhere around here, and I don't know how, because it's just come in as we're talking about this, is what about how does imposter syndrome link into this then? Do you think?

Imposter Syndrome Versus Misfiled Wins

SPEAKER_00 47:38

What's your view on it? Because there, I mean, we could look at, you know, there's various respects of the side.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

I don't think it's it's not the same thing as imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

No.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Oh no, it's not. It's not for me. And also, I've spoken out quite a lot about imposter syndrome because I think the imposter syndrome has become such a kind of buzz phrase now that we've lost the original meaning. And I almost think it could do with with with renaming. So whenever imposter syndrome comes up properly, my take on that is it's only coming up because there's part of us somewhere that does not feel confident and doesn't feel enough. And if we can treat that part of ourselves as like an arch archetypal being, so like when we teach the archetypes and the big one, and we can go, okay, that is my little child element who is worried that we don't know enough about this particular topic, for instance. I can then talk to that part of myself and give it give her a task. I say, okay, well, do you want to take take task on going and helping us learn about that then? So when imposter syndrome comes up, nine times out of ten is because there's part of us somewhere that feels ill-equipped or uncomfortable. And we can either go, I want to get rid of my imposter syndrome, or we can go, oh, that's interesting. So which part of me feels that we don't have all the toolkit then? And what do they need to feel more confident? And we can use that as a tool to go and learn more and get better. Whereas this is not the same thing. This is a brainwiring element that is misfiring and not allowing us to readily recall positive emotions around successes whilst at the same time heavily weighting negative feelings and emotions around perceived failures.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

I hate you see, I hate that. Even that, that made me really uncomfortable. You said misfiring. But you but it's, you know, what other way could you describe it? Because that, you know, it's a fault in the system. And I, you know. Is it a fault? No, it's a difference. It's a difference in the system.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Yeah, is any of this a fault? It's like that before there are so many elements of neurodivergence that really can be brilliant for us. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

We just need to learn to channel them differently. And I think we need, and that's I think that's why it went, I went, oh, ow, no, I don't like that. So yeah, the wording we use, I think is very important. So I you know, I think it's it's that.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Well praise probably all hooked into the to the way we don't, you know, uh so much of the dopamine we produce, we might produce the same amount of dopamine as everyone else, but our dopamine can't get to the part of the brain it needs to get to fast enough for it to all be used. So that's probably another reason why we're not why we're not retaining the those positive emotions. Because it's dopamine-based, isn't it? It's dopamine, it's serotonin, it's all of those good things. And then we think about RSD we've talked about before, reject rejection sensitive dysphoria, dysmorphia, dysphoria, dysphoria. Always get those two mixed up. All that rejection and criticism we've we've had, that gets kind of really burned into us with really deep emotional intensity. So the negative memories, to put it really simply, are louder.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Yeah, yeah. We talked about that earlier, didn't we? We said that that some of the things we're doing. We don't have cheerleaders, we have doom leaders. Yeah, well yeah, exactly that.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

So yeah. Give me a C, give me an R, give me an A, give me a P. And they'd all have really gruff voices as well. So what's what's the real world cost of this then? We've we you talked about pitches, interviews, negotiations, yeah, you know, and having the confidence of someone who's never done it before. That doesn't necessarily apply to me in the same way. Although, you know, I've done goodness knows how many talks all over the world now. And yet, when I was asked to do a talk for for what used to be British Aerospace at the beginning of this year, yeah, I had real butterflies about that, because it's like, look at the size of them. What? And excuse me, the feedback from that when it came back was absolutely immense. Bloody some of the best feedback I've ever had. And yet, because I I got myself into a real tizzy because of the size and scope of that organisation, and who am I to go and speak to those people? So that was my version of that, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

It'd be really clever here. I just thought of something. I don't know, because I don't know. Oh, I left myself open to that then, didn't I? I bet everybody's laughing now. Anyway, what I was going to say to you was the fact that you've got that and all that wonderful feedback, I'm gonna use three little words. What are my three little words? Where's your evidence?

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Where's your evidence? It's on LinkedIn, actually, in a scrolling PG.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Joking aside, one of the things that I wanted to leave people with, not leave people with, because I don't think we're quite done yet, but one of the things I wanted to mention on this, and I think it's so important, because I know it's as much a message to myself and to Taz on this one, because we've talked about this in the past, about creating those wonderful files of good stuff. You know, if

Brag Flags Praise Vases And Evidence

SPEAKER_00 52:33

you like your your brag file, whatever you want to call it, your fabulous file, whatever it may be, and just keep it on your computer somewhere you can see it. I always talk about magic whiteboard because I love it.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

And you get a fabric marker and put them all on, and then you could have a brag flag.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Yeah, a brag flag. That's cool. Brag flag. I like that. But things, you know, document these things because we it's so easy for us all, whether we're neurotypical or neuro from the n neurodivergence community, we can forget about these things and we naturally can go to the negative. But we need to really remind ourselves, and I know we don't do that enough to us. We've talked about this a lot, haven't we, of late, particularly well, you know, when we've had some more difficult times. And I've just said to you, we really need to do that. So please, everybody, if you're listening to this and any of this is ringing a bell for you, make sure you find your whatever you called it to us or forgotten around. Red flag. Your brag flag, whatever it makes you.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

Yeah, and we could go American for a moment and call it a praise vase.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

A praise vase. I like that. Fabulous.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Put them in a vase, a praise vase.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Yeah, that's cool. I like it. It's good. Because because, in other words, and also on your phone, you know, because even if our brains struggle to kind of bring that forward and remind us of that sometimes. Goat note. Oh, because she's off now. At least with your phone or with something in front of you on the wall or something you can look at every day, it's a great reminder to say, to remind you of just how amazing you really are, and all the amazing things that you've done, and you will continue to do. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

We've got to remind ourselves. In fact, you have a little jar, don't you, that you've you've got lots of positives written in, and you had to both pull one the other day. Yeah. And we had stuff going back to our wedding and way back.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Yeah. And that's what, 10, 11 years ago now. So 2014. Yeah, so 12 years. Yeah, amazing. But yes, I think that's really important. So you know, keeping really keeping really practical little tips and bits of advice, but please do that for yourselves because it's so important.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

Yeah, maybe the Miss Fire, it's Miss File, thinking about it in that way. Miss File. Miss File. So, you know, we is Miss File, what'd she look like?

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Oh, I say. Well, I'm I'm going somewhere. Let's leave it now. Anything else that we want to include in this product? Because I think hopefully you've got something from this listeners, and it's given you an idea of, you know, some of the things that we that we've challenges that we have to overcome sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

I think that's really important, the the the misfire as a as opposed to misfire thing, file thing. Because again, it's misfile as opposed to misfire. Yeah. Because it's that thing, isn't it? It's it's hard to it's hard to believe that you've been really good at something if you're you're kind of inner fraud detector keeps telling you that a fraud detector. Yeah, yeah. An inner fraud detector that keeps pointing out. Fraud evidence. Freud evidence said then that's very, very different.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

I'm getting pictures of I've got a missfile and I've got the fraud detector. It's like a the uh the antithesis of a a superhero. It's hard to it's hard to prove that.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Yeah, and it's hard to no, we want f we want bin face to win, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 55:42

We want bin face, win, win, but it win.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

It is hard, isn't it? It's hard to try and tell that fraud that in a fraud detector that he's wrong.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Wait the trash out, bin face. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

When you genuinely can't remember, can't recall your wins in any kind of powerful or emotional way. Yeah. So yeah, the everything, you know, you want your you want your your brag flag, your praise face, your witness chart. Um James Hall, a wonderful coach I used to coach many years, many years ago, and still we're still in touch now, he has talks about keeping a book of success. All of these things can really, really help, I think. And you know, I think that the the questioning thing, if you're ever talking to someone and you don't know them very very well and you're thinking maybe there might be neurodivergent. Can you say Wary Vell though? I nearly did say Werry Vell. Wherry Wery Vell. Um ask them. Tell me why you're asking all these questions. What what what is it that makes you so interested? You know, and don't be so quick to think they're trying to make it all about them. Just get curious yourself, ask questions. That's one of the best things that Ash and I have done since we've both recognised we're on that spectrum, is to get curious instead of getting upset with each other to say something like, just pause for a second and just tell me where your brain went then. Because my brain's gone over here. Where where have has yours gone?

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Mine's gone for a run in the park. Yeah. My physical body wouldn't be able to do that, but my brain's gone over there. But joking aside by getting playing football and it's got at least 20 goals.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

By getting curious, yeah, it helps us to go, ah right, so that's why we've sometimes got upset with each other in the past. It's not because you meant this and I felt this, it's because your brain does this and my brain does that. So, how do we find that middle ground there? I love it. Get curious, that's the best thing you can do.

Get Curious And How To Support

SPEAKER_01 57:35

If you have enjoyed this episode, you'll find plenty of other episodes on neurodivergence and ADHD through the file. So pop over to our site over on Buzz Sprout, or just go and have a look wherever it is you listen to our podcasts, you will find some other really cracking episodes that surround neurodivergence, neurodiversity, and ADHD, autism, etc. etc. It's not all of them, it's not the backbone of our podcast, but we have covered it quite a lot. And just to dispel one piece that people trip themselves up on whether it's neurodiverse or neurodivergent.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

I think I might have done that a little bit. I apologise anybody.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

I think I will have done it at some point. But the easiest way I find to remember it is to remember diverse means there's lots of different types. So we are all people are neurodiverse because all our brains and thinking patterns are different. Divergent moves away from the perceived norm, so neurodivergent is somewhere on that spectrum. Neurodiverse is everyone. So yeah, Astra's just found one of our episodes. Uh, episode seven of the first series, ADHD friendly. Which is actually uh one of our one of our top episodes. Yeah, in terms of downloads. You might enjoy that. Anyway, until next time, please do follow, please do subscribe, please keep this sharing. It's so important. Please send us some fan mail through to BuzzSprout or leave us some feedback on Apple, wherever it is you're listening. And we will see you next Tuesday.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

You've been listening to Autumn Me Off Topic. Make sure you're following so you don't miss the next one. And if you'd like more, come and find Autumn Me Off Topic on social media. You'll find behind the scenes footage, floopers, and more. See you next time.