One Woman’s Experience as a Federal Prison Inmate, and Her Return: A Discussion with Portia Louder

In 2007, FBI agents showed up at the home of Portia Louder and her husband Chad.  Their youngest of five children was just three months old at the time.  Seven years later, in August 2014, Louder pleaded guilty to wire fraud and conspiracy.  And on the morning of April 21, 2015, she and Chad left their home in Utah on a 14-hour drive to the facility where Louder would self-surrender in order to commence her seven-year sentence.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:30

This is the Just Pod.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Welcome back to the Just Pod from Philadelphia. I'm Justin Danilovitz. My co-host, Janard Butler, is out today. In 2007, FBI agents showed up at the home of Portia Lauder and her husband Chad. Their youngest of five children, CJ, was just three months old. Seven years later, in August 2014, Louder pleaded guilty to wire fraud and conspiracy. And on the morning of April 21st, 2015, she and her husband left their home in Utah on a 14-hour drive to self-surrender for a seven-year sentence. Lauda is the author of two books, Living Louder, A Compassionate Journey Through Federal Prison, as well as Born to Be Brave, A Compassionate Journey Through Life. She's the host of a podcast called Living Louder. And it's wonderful to have her with us. Porsche Louder, welcome to the Just Pod.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Thank you so much for having me, Justin.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

It's it's a real pleasure to welcome you, Porsche. And I have to tell you, I have been loving reading your book, Living Louder, Compassionate Journey Through Federal Prison. It's a tearjerker at points, but full of incredible stories about your experience. So I'm looking forward to chatting with you about it.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah. It's uh, you know, I think that when I wrote it, it was probably the right time to write it because since then I feel like it would be hard to go back and write it again. It was I was about a year out of prison and my heart was still so full of those experiences. And so I'm glad that I was able to put that into to Living Louder. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yeah, no, no question. You did a terrific job. It's really beautifully written and a very interesting read. Um, did you take notes and sort of keep a diary during your time in prison? It sounds that way because in reading the book, you you sort of you refer to entries that that you make from time to time. And so is that what you were able to use to put the book together?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yeah, and I didn't intend to write a book, you know. Um I kept letters from my children and um I also kept a journal. And one of the interesting things that I did was I started blogging before I even went to prison. As soon as I was sentenced, I felt this overflow of I just need to ask my community to support my family while I'm gone. And so I just reached out on social media. People were wonderful, very supportive. The um I remember counselors in my children's schools reaching out, offering any support they could. And then when I went to prison in federal prison, you're able to email family members. So I would send home, you know, my experiences and my husband would post those. And so people were following that journey while I was in prison. And that was helpful when I wrote the book.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

So yeah, I can imagine that. I I was wondering about that because at some point you reference uh one of the corrections officers saying that they actually enjoyed reading your blog. Somehow they got word of it. And I was wondering how were you able to maintain a blog while in custody? So that's true.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah, that was a um so you know, legally, because I was able to send these emails home, there was really nothing that they could do to stop it. Um, and some of the correctional officers were great about it, but word got out fast. In prison, it's a very contained community. And so um the girls would, you know, would see me over there writing and they would say, Oh, Louder's writing on a blog. And then some of the officers heard about it, so then they're searching it up. And the girls were paranoid, so they'd have their friends search it up to make sure I wasn't talking about them, you know. Um and mostly I got a good response. There were a few officers that were frustrated with some of the things that I was writing, and so that caused me some trouble, but there was really nothing they well, they could ship me to a different prison, which ended up happening, but they couldn't stop me from writing.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

So good for you. Um, I do want to ask you if you wouldn't mind, and if you have the book handy um in a couple of minutes to read um a portion out loud. We can get to that in a minute. I I'd love to ask you to read page 21, um, which is pretty emotional. Um, before we get there, I do want to uh thank my sister Amy for putting us in touch. My sister somehow uh saw your Instagram posts um and was really touched by them. And um being a wonderful sister and a loyal Just Pod listener, she said, this is someone you have to have on. Um so thank you to Amy for that.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Ah, shout out to Amy. Thank you, Amy.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Um Portia, maybe we could just first of all, if you don't mind, um talk about the conduct that you pleaded to so that our listeners have an understanding of the context and what ultimately led to your guilty plea.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yes. So um I believe it gets a little bit confusing, but I pled guilty to misrepresentations on loan applications. And um because they were misrepresented and money was transferred, it was wire fraud, um, mail fraud, money laundering. Whenever money is sent in the furtherance of a crime, the initial crime being that this application was inaccurate in both my income and in the value, the valuation of the home as well as the occupancy of the home. Um, those misrepresentations ended up being fraudulent. And then, you know, the wire fraud, money laundering, and mail fraud were all part of that charge as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Right. And and I understand that your husband, Chad, although he pleaded to to something much more minor, um, did have some minor participation and therefore uh was involved as a as a co-conspirator. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 6:33

It is. And that was difficult for me because I felt a lot of um responsibility, you know. My husband is much more conservative than I am, so he wasn't interested in the risks that I was taking, but I'm a pretty aggressive person and difficult to say no to. So um so that was a difficult thing for me to try to manage because I felt responsible for that. But yeah, he did plead guilty. It was a minor, more of a minor part, and was sentenced um to home confinement, so he didn't have to go to prison.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Were you guys concerned about the the potential for you to both be in custody at the same time?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

We were. Um initially, you know, it was it was my hope that um I planned to go to trial. I'm really glad that I didn't. I didn't know enough about the system, and I really um it took me a long time to get to a place where I understood my guilt and just owned that. So initially it was hard for me. I was focused on what other people were doing that weren't charged. And um so yeah, when the final concession that the the government made was after I pled and I was sentenced to the seven years in federal prison, um, they basically said that if Chad would plead guilty, then any prison sentence that he had to serve could be done after I got home. And if he didn't plead guilty and he went to trial, that that we would both be put in prison at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Wow, that's that's huge pressure. I mean, it if for in theory, if Chad had wanted to go to trial um and wanted to exercise his right to a trial, that's that's a ton of pressure to forego that right, right? And knowing that your children are gonna be unaccompanied without a guardian and whatnot.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Right. It was um it was actually our children. I remember coming home after I was sentenced, and my daughter Sadie, who was 12, looked at me and said, Is dad gonna go too? Will neither of you be here for us? And I said, No, no, that's not gonna happen. And she said, But I don't believe you anymore, mom, because you said that this wouldn't happen, you know? And I remember that night going to chat and just in tears, I said, You have to plead, you have to plead, like you have to be here for the kids, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Oh my gosh. Position nobody wants to ever be in. Um so as I said at the beginning, 2007, FBI agents show up. It's the knock on the door that nobody ever wants to have. CJ, your youngest, is three months old. Fast forward to the the guilty plea seven years later. Um and then ultimately you you are sentenced. Um you and uh well let's let's talk about now if you don't mind. Maybe you could read from page 21. Um the chapter's titled Saying Goodbye. Um and maybe you could read the page from that day, April 21st, 2015.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah. It says it was three in the morning, and I lay in bed and quietly sobbed. Chad held me tight and told me all the good things we had. I walked into each child's room and watched them sleep. CJ's face was perfect. The tangles in her hair made her look so innocent and young. Jackson looked brave even in his sleep. Sadie's face was beautiful. Her presence had always been so comforting to me. I cleaned my house one last time. Oh, how I would miss taking care of my family. The house was silent, and I sat in the dark wondering how I was going to say goodbye. My sister Kira called. Are you okay, Porsche? I just want to make sure you're okay. I couldn't talk. Oh, Portia, they love you so much. Chad loves you so much. I know. Porsche, you're the strongest person I know. If anyone can do this, you can. Chad is such a good father, and we will be right there with him. I don't think I can do this, Kira. She started to cry. You can, Portia. I know you can. You can do anything. I love you, Kira. I should go. I will call you later.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Really powerful. Thank you, Portia.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

I'm sure it's emotional revisiting that, even for you today after all that time. Yeah. So take us into the car that morning. You've got a 14-hour drive from your home in Utah. It's just you and Chad on that journey. That must have been, in some ways, the longest, but also the shortest drive of your life, I can imagine. What was that like? What did you discuss?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

You know, I um was really trying to, you know, my typical thing is I can do this, I'm gonna do this, this will be okay. And Chad is always very calm, just kind of puts his hand on my on my knee and he's like, I know you'll be okay. And I do remember Chad saying, um, but I am worried about you, Portia. Like I'm worried that it will be hard for you to do without me, which is so sweet, you know, because he knows that he's a real calming influence in my life. I have this kind of bravado and he's just putting, he was very calm. Um, and I was just trying to, you know, the first little bit, um, I couldn't speak because I had left my children. And I just that pain was um wasn't something that I could even put into words. I remember trying, and Chad said, it's okay, you don't have to talk. I actually had my laptop and I started writing um just because it was like a way for me to express how I felt. And then, you know, a few hours later, I just started saying, okay, I'm gonna be okay. This is the plan. I'm gonna, and that's when he just put his hand on my leg and said, I'm worried about you, you know. So it was uh it was a long drive. I don't the thing that surprised me the most was when I got into prison um re thinking, how could I have not treasured that more? Like every minute that I had. How did I not realize um how big of a difference it would make the minute they closed that door? And I thought I should have savored every moment of it more. I should have done more, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Um so one of the one of the things that I wanted uh to delve into is the the interesting aspect of this. You know, we've had we've had so many really interesting guests. We've been fortunate, a number of them, who have served time in federal custody. Um, but I'm I'm sure you are the first woman we've had uh to have served time in custody. And that presents a whole new interesting perspective. One thing that I noted from from what you described is there seemed to be, maybe this was just your positive outlook and perspective, but there almost seemed to be a sisterhood amongst the women who you were in custody with. Um maybe in part that has to do with the fact that uh FCI Dublin, Federal Correctional Institutional Institution, Dublin is a low security institution. Um but and and I suppose it's difficult for you to compare, not having been in a in a male facility, um, but there was there was a remarkable almost gentility, I would say, um, in the interactions you you had with people. There was, you know, not a lot of aggression, violence. Did I did I read that correctly? Do you have a different view?

SPEAKER_01 14:06

You know, um, I mean, keep in mind that I wrote this book, you know, a year after I got out of prison. So my first year in prison was kind of shocking to me because I'm from Utah and it's a pretty conservative state. So I go to Oakland, just outside of Oakland, California. It's a much different environment. Um, I think having such a broken heart, I felt right away the kindness and compassion of the women because I just was lost, like the pain that I felt. And the women offered support. And um I have talked to men. I've been on podcasts with men that have been in prison and they they kind of are surprised. They're like, oh, that's not how it goes for us when we go to prison. You know, it's different. Women in men's prisons in the federal system are much different. You have really, men have, you know, multiple different security levels based on your charge. FCI Dublin, and and as far as I know, was the highest security you could get for women. We were all there together. Like you have people doing life, and you have people that are me, I have white collar. Um, and really very little violence. I mean, women in men's prisons are different in that respect. Um, I just did a video on that. Most of the violence was based on these girlfriend relationships that are, you know, girls get really jealous of each other. But I felt, I definitely felt a sisterhood and was grateful for that and surprised by it. Like we were really seeking how how to get through this pain that we felt together. We had support groups and we created them ourselves. And I felt like um I could have never done it without without the other women.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

So that's really amazing. There's there's a statement um on page 38 of your book where you say many of the women were more cared for in prison than they had been at any time in their lives. Though it may seem counterintuitive, prison can be a place to rest from the pain and sorrows of this world. Pretty remarkable if if that's the the step up, right, for some of these people.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Right. And that is was so surprising to me, the level of um struggle that most of these women had experienced in their lives. Like I remember hearing a CO, a correctional officer, saying it's hard to send them back, knowing where they're going. Like they're safer here, you know? And there were a lot of women that, I mean, I've had some on my podcast that have said prison is was finally an opportunity for me to grow up and feel safe, the structure. And I would definitely, the majority of the women I met were safer in prison than they had been in in the free world.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Yeah, it's pretty amazing to think of. Um, there was a corrections officer at some point who said something along the lines of um, you know, I I myself feel quite alone. Yeah. Um, and you talk about that, um, the perspective of the corrections officers who in their own way are confined in this institution. That's sort of their their daily work. Um, can you tell us a little bit about that? You your impressions of the corrections officers you interacted with and the variety among them?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah, you know, it initially I had a hard time even looking at the correctional officers in the eye because I felt very insecure, just being in prison and this is where I've come, you know. And in and I remember that particular correctional officer, um, we had kind of um had a tension between us. And when she said that to me, we had this kind of a class that I taught, and the and we did a support group part of the class where they would come up and talk about their conviction. And and afterwards she said, you know, Louder, in a way, um I envy what you guys have. You have each other. She said, When I'm struggling, I have nobody to turn to. And it just did change my perspective. It took time for me because initially that power differential and how I felt about myself was poor. But by the end of my prison sentence, I really saw that we were all on the same team. We're all very equal. And I recognize that a lot of the officers in prison probably have similar trauma that we do, you know, from all being here together. So it was a different view. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Um, I loved your description of your mornings um in prison. Um, this is from page 43 of your book. And uh the the title of the chapter is institutionalized, um, which we'll get to in just a moment. But um I'd love to just quote a little excerpt here. You said day after day we were frozen in time. And then you went on to say the mornings were my favorite thing in prison. I love the silence and beauty of the sunrise. Each represented a new beginning. Nature was my connection to God. The sunrises and sunsets at Dublin were majestic. In the evenings when the colors burst across the sky, we all stood in the reckyard and marveled at the beauty. The colors were more vibrant to us because of the simplicity of our lives. Uh, I thought that was just a beautiful description, and I could imagine you all in the rec yard together, kind of experiencing that um uh the the the beauty of nature that crept into an otherwise difficult existence. Right?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah, as you read that, I clearly remember that exact experience all standing there, all so different and together. Yeah, such a beautiful moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

So at the same time, on on the very same same page, there's there's a tinge of of of sadness, obviously, and you have this mix throughout the book, but you referred to a woman um who had slept in the same bed, in the same room for 12 years. Um you said that she woke up at 5 a.m., scrubbed her cell, went to breakfast, went to the gym, and worked in the kitchen, every day was the same. And then you say when a counselor told the poor woman she had to move to a different cell, she she actually had a breakdown. Correct. Right. Um what what what of that did you experience? Did you did you speak to the women? Did you observe her breakdown? What what sort of was the situation?

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, I mean, um, she just was gr kind of going up and down the halls really hysterical. And um the other women came and tried to calm her down, you know, and settle her down. And um mostly I feel like we were there for each other. It was, it's not that there isn't mental health support, but if you end up going to mental health or something like that, there's a chance they're gonna put you in an isolation cell to observe you. And that's not what any of us want. And so we're trying to help calm her down. But she uh Spanish was her first language. She spoke very little English, and so some of the other women were trying to just speak Spanish to her and calm her down, and it's gonna be okay, we're gonna get you through this, you know. But she was really, really struggling with that. And I can understand that. I had not ever slept in the same, you know, bed in the same room. I wasn't there that long, but um, the moves are very difficult and stressful when you're because you finally feel safe, right? And then then they move you and it's it's very uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

So um there are so many women whose stories you tell uh people with incredibly difficult, beyond imaginable difficult upbringings. Um is there is there one or two that stands out for you um as being particularly poignant that that had a particularly strong impact on you that you can share?

SPEAKER_01 21:38

I think I remember um when I was in Wasika, I I worked in the reentry department. There was kind of a little cement office behind the library. To me, it was like my sanctuary because it was a place I could go that was quiet. But uh I had a girl, she went by candy in prison. Um, that was her nickname, and she would come down every day. And visit with me. And she just had a really big, fun personality. And when she told me she was leaving prison, I remember asking her, I said, Well, will you be living with your folks when you go home? And she says, Oh no, my mom died a long time ago. And my dad, he can't take care of himself. He wouldn't be able to take care of me. And I said, Well, oh, I'm sorry. Did you lose your mom while you were in prison? And she said, No. She said, Portia, my mom struggled so much. My mother, you know, was a drug addict. She started pimping me out when I was really young for drugs. She said she lost me to foster care and she was never able to, you know, to get it together. And she said she ended up getting AIDS. And I was with her the day that she died. And she told me that her, you know, her mother, she said, I looked at my mom and I said, Mom, let it go. Forgive yourself. It's okay. I'm okay. And to me, I just remember I started to cry because I couldn't imagine, you know, being in that situation. And she gave me a hug. She goes, It's okay. I'm okay. You know, I'm I came here, I got my GED, life is good for me. And I I just, it was, you know, my heart and my soul, I my view has been forever changed because of those stories. Because I just didn't come from those difficult circumstances. I think I was typically in every group when they would ask you, you know, to raise your hand if you'd been either sexually abused or um domestic violence, I was the only one. Everyone, there was always all the hands were raised except mine. And I just didn't couldn't believe how much pain these women had experienced.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

So Yeah. You know, when when you hear these stories, one of the things that always impacts me that I find remarkable is the capacity for forgiveness. Right. Um, even amongst these abused children. I was having a chat with somebody just the other day who was raised in horrific circumstances, um, abusive mother, the works, um, but is nonetheless very emotional at the passing of that mother. And you kind of scratch your head and think, how can it be? Um but it it also goes to show you the significance of that maternal bond and that there is no one and nothing that can replace a mother, um even even under horrific circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, that uh it's interesting that you say that because I've interviewed uh several women, and as they share their story, they are so emotional at the passing of their mother, or it's like they're there that conflict. Um I think we're all drawn to our paternal parents regardless of the the pain. But you're right, the forgiveness to me is remarkable, you know, to see and witness the forgiveness of the people that I've met who I met in prison is remarkable.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

And and particularly, you know, when you think of the petty things we carry around, little gratitude day to day. I mean, it it certainly puts things in perspective. The the other thing that really comes out so strongly from your from your book um is the value of appreciation, of gratitude, right? Um you talk about your appreciation of that uh sunset, for example, um of it intruding into the simplicity of your life. Um and this woman, uh Candy, you just described, being grateful for the opportunity to get a GED, but having very little to hope for um on her release. Um I I have to think that your capacity for appreciation must have expanded tremendously just by what you encountered and and and the lessons you gained in custody.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Oh, yeah. And I think that I just came to realize what really matters, you know, it's these connections and how we support each other that really matters. And it definitely changed my view and my gratitude. Um, when I came home from prison, my children before prison were used to me buying them things. And I remember being with my daughter Sadie and I said, I'm just here to spend whatever time I can with you. And we walked around the mall and she goes, You're not gonna buy me anything. I said, No, I just want to treasure you, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, my gosh. Amazing. Maybe we can talk about the the residential drug addiction uh program as well, RDAP. Right. Um I was really interested to read. Um, you know, I I have um clients in my in my day job as uh why call a criminal defense counsel who are dying to get into the RDAP program because everybody knows it's it's the route exactly a year off. It's a route to getting some time off. I was amazed to read that there are some people who just give up on that. I mean, they may be eligible candidates, but they voluntarily just opt out of the program.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Right. Yep, absolutely. There were several people that I met that just wouldn't do it for the year off for a variety of reasons. I mean, I I opted out when they put me in it initially because I was so uncomfortable. I was like, I am not gonna, I mean, I have a roommate I like, I have a room I like. Part of it for me was I was still in denial about my, you know, my attorney was gonna get get me out, you know, and uh, but it it surprised me how many women said I would prefer to just, I won't go. I'll I'll take the extra year. That blew my mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Yeah, 100%. What's the reason for that? I mean, I it is it just sort of anger at the system, not wanting to cooperate in any sense? I I I don't understand why anybody would voluntarily accept another year in exchange for not being treated.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Well, um, first of all, I mean, there are a low percentage of women that go in thinking they're gonna help me. You know, I'm grateful for this treatment. And I've and those women do really well in the program. I was not one of them. I thought, what does the government have to teach me? I don't trust them at all, right? It turned out to be one of the best experiences of my life. The work that I do now is directly related to what I learned in that program and I loved it. But once I got in there and I was willing to work it, but it is um the discomfort of that, there is while you're in prison, you know, there's a lot of women in there that that criminal code is so strong. Like you, I will not tell on anybody, I will not do that. I mean, they've been raised and steeped in the criminal code where what you never snitch on anybody, you know, and if you've been taught from your parents from the time you were a kid when the foster system showed up, you never tell on family, you never tell on anyone, and you're going into a program where you need to call each other out and and you know, it can be so uncomfortable. So they would just choose. They would say, Nope, I'm not doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Amazing. Um, on a lighter note, can you tell us about the prison cake recipe?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Oh, yeah. I'm telling you, you know, um, because we have so few items, all of us spend hours perfecting different recipes. And I'm telling you, this prison cake that I made in prison, the girls were blown away. But I I would I made it over and over and over again. And it's like Oreo cookies, it's a cup of pudding, a cup of milk. Um, you and then you add some soda and put it in the microwave in a Tupperware, and it rises into a really good cake. And I've actually, I mean, I have the recipes on YouTube, and I've I've had I've done some book clubs where I've made the cake, and people, even out here, think it's just such a great cake. It really is. So yeah. I was famous for my prison cake recipe in prison.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

It's funny. I have a client right now, obviously won't mention names, uh, but who's in custody um and has been gathering different recipes um and is interested in actually putting together a book uh upon release, which uh obviously hoping is is is soon. Yeah. Um, what is it that you're doing today to sort of share the lessons that you've learned uh for the benefit of other people? Um obviously you're busy with with your podcasts, the books that you've written, but how are you sharing your lessons through what kind of media?

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah, well, I'm on um all kinds of different social media platforms, you know. I last year I finally got on TikTok. I was totally intimidated by that and thought I don't want anything to do with that. And then one day I just thought I'll just share a video, a prison story. And so I'm on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, um, I think Threads and a couple of others, LinkedIn. Um, but it's pretty easy because you just, you know, share a video and then post it to all the platforms. But I and I think that that's been helpful. When I got home from prison, COVID was going on, and there was a large Facebook group that formed, about half a million members, over half a million members, and I started sharing prison stories, and the admin asked me to be an admin of that site. And so I started writing and sharing, and that's you know, as well as my blog that people were following. So um, I've been able to share that way, but I also work um, so I work with two different companies. One of them I helped start a program where people leaving prison are able to get into an IOP program, and we have coaching and therapy and case management. We help them with housing and jobs, and that brings a lot of meaning into my life. So every day I'm working with people that are exiting prison and getting them into programming, and it's so rewarding for me. But I also do a lot of speaking. I go into prisons and jails and detention centers, and I've I've done um facilitated youth groups with kiddos that have been in and out of foster care. And so my whole life is different, you know, my purpose and everything changed having gone to prison. And there's a lot of meaning in my life. Sometimes I'm way too busy and I still have to pull back and put my family first, but uh there's a lot of meaning. I wish I had more time, actually.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

That's fabulous. Good for you. Um, can you talk about um the day of your release? Uh, we started off uh the day of your entry. Um what was that like if you could describe it for us and the return home?

SPEAKER_01 32:10

You know, it was really emotional for me. Um, such a completely different experience because um a couple of things had happened. One, I had so much love for these women. My heart was just bursting with love for them. Two, I really liked myself. Like I had experienced this transformation and had a totally different view of who I was. And I remember thinking, never in my life have I been able to look in the mirror and feel this good about myself. So I left prison, um, feeling good about myself and having a lot of love for the women and so nervous. I was just scared because I felt like I had found myself and I didn't want to get lost in that world out there. And then nervous just to be with my kids again and all the changes and feeling like I had to get to know them again. And I remember when I walked out of the unit, um, my friend Macy, who I was really close to, um, walked me out and it was very emotional. She gave me a hug, she walked me to the gate, and my husband was standing there waiting for me with flowers. And all the women came out cheering for me. We love you, Miss Portia. We love you, Miss Louder. And I, my heart literally like was so full. And I remember how excited I was just to hold Chad's hand because we had done this together. I mean, I don't think I was any, I know I wasn't more excited the day I got married. Like my heart was just so full and I was so nervous and grateful, you know, and I had no idea what my life would be like. I mean, that was kind of scary. You know, I went into prison, I mean, in my 40s, and and I didn't know like what's my career gonna look like, how will I reconnect to my community? I was surprised. I felt insecure going into prison and I felt insecure coming out of prison, you know. Um, but it was, you know, there's a lot of women. I don't know any women that I know one that had a husband waiting for her when she left prison. Not very many women have that. And so I was really fortunate that my husband waited for me, and that was really special for us.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

So incredible. And is Macy the woman who was serving a sentence of life? Am I remembering that correctly?

SPEAKER_01 34:14

No, no, Macy. Um actually, Macy is if anyone, she is an incredible person. She and I both grew up in Utah, and but her parents were both heroin addicts and lived homeless. So she was raised homeless pretty much. And um we met in Wasika and then she was transferred back to Victorville, and I was transferred back to Victorville. So I met her on her first day in prison, and then she walked me out on my last day in prison. She still had several years to go. She came home a few years ago and was recently on my podcast, and it was such a good interview just because of her and what she'd been through, you know, and the way our stories are so different, but we became best friends in prison. And so um, that's definitely one that people should watch. It's a really good interview, you know, not to even promote my stuff, but I mean Macy's story is incredible. Shout out to Macy. So she's in the book, too.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Okay, wonderful. Yeah, no, I remember reading about Macy. I I just got her confused with a different woman who you mentioned who was serving now.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Surviving life, yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Right, exactly. I I remember you said to her um at some point, the woman serving life, uh, you referred to something about when she gets out.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Right. That was Mark, yep, yep. I remember, yeah. She's reached out to me. She's still in prison, but we we communicate some, not a lot. But um, I remember her telling me when I asked her, like when she got out, she could be a photographer. I said, You're really good at it. And she goes, Oh, I'll never get out. She said, Thank you though. She goes, It made me feel human for a minute to have somebody think I was gonna get out. You know, it was yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

I was I was interested that you were able to do photography in custody because I would have thought from a security point of view, they would not want photographs taken in inside the prison. I mean, I assume the photographs didn't leave the institution. Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

But yeah, um, it was well, they have prison photographers, but there's very strict guidelines to it. They give you the camera with the card, you take the pictures and give it back to the officer and they print them because you know there's people that are there for 20 years, and the only way they send a picture home to their family is they pay a dollar and we go down and get a picture taken, and then they print it for us and we send it home. Right. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Amazing. Well, um, it's been a real treat to have you on. Really appreciate your time um and your courage in in sharing a really interesting story. There's there's so much to learn from it. Um so thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Yeah, I appreciate being here, and uh, I'm excited for the podcast cut or this, yeah, the interview coming out. We'll I'll pass it around. I'm sure people will love to listen to it.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

So we we would love that. Uh the more Just Pod listeners, the better. We always appreciate that. This episode of the Just Pod was edited and produced by Keosue and socialized by Sarah Timodi. Our original theme music was composed and mixed by Janard Butler. If you would like to join us in a future episode of the Just Pod, or if you have questions or topics for us to address on a future episode, please send them to our producer, Keosue, at Keo.su at American Bar.org. That's KYO.suh at American Bar.org. This has been another episode of the JustPod. Thanks so much for joining us from Philadelphia. I'm Justin Danil Evans. The Just Part is a production of the American Bar Association's criminal justice section.