Brungardt Law's Lagniappe
A little extra perspective from Brungardt Law conveyed through conversations with individuals of various backgrounds exploring the interplay of practices, policies, and laws with decision making and leadership. An opportunity to learn how to navigate towards productive outcomes as well as appreciate the journey through the experiences and observations of others.
Brungardt Law's Lagniappe
Serving and Protecting the Community: A Conversation with Patrick Baxter
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To serve and to protect. The motto of many law enforcement agencies in the U.S. But what does it take to serve and to protect? Today’s guest is Patrick Baxter who served and protected the residents of New Orleans as a New Orleans Police Department officer for 17 years. Patrick was among the dedicated cohort who remained in the city during and after Hurricane Katrina. A mentor to many in the NOPD, Patrick shares with us his insights and observations developed from routine calls for assistance to literally confronting catastrophe with no end in sight.
To serve and to protect, the motto of many law enforcement agencies in the U.S. What does it take to serve and to protect? Law enforcement officers have a lower life expectancy than the general population, not to mention experience more health-related issues due to their stressful occupation. They're held to higher standards, as well as expectations, which most people would fall short of, especially in moments of personal sacrifice. Welcome to Brungart Law is Langout, when we provide you a little extra perspective beyond the law, through conversations with individuals from all walks of life. I'm Maurice Brungart, your host. I enjoy engaging with experienced, knowledgeable, and passionate individuals for the opportunity it affords to broaden and deepen understanding of the world through their eyes. The more we learn, the more likely we can become better versions of ourselves and guide others towards the same. Today's guest is Patrick Baxter. Born, raised, and educated in New Orleans, Patrick served and protected its residents as a New Orleans Police Department officer for 17 years. Patrick was among the dedicated cohort who remained in the city during and after Hurricane Katrina. A mentor to many in the NOPD, Patrick shares with us his insights and observations as a first responder, developed from routine calls for assistance to literally confronting catastrophe with no end in sight. Welcome to the program, Patrick.
SPEAKER_04:Thanks, Laurice. I appreciate the opportunity. How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01:I'm doing great. One, it's it's wonderful to be able to reunite with you in this sort of forum. Why don't you go ahead and share with our listeners uh what led you uh to NOPD?
SPEAKER_04:Um, I graduated from uh Loyola University, and uh during my time at Loyola University, I was working in a halfway house uh and during that time I used to encounter United States Marshals and I I became interested in that. So talking to one of my guys that I consider a mentor, he was like, You need a little law enforcement work first. So I applied to different places. And during that time, uh Chief Pennington, Richard Pennington, had been the chief for about three years, and he set some standards and some guidelines that were having positive results as far as I could see. So I became real interested in joining NOPD. It wasn't my first choice, but the more uh research I did, the more I enjoyed what they were offering and the opportunity that they gave me. I just want to add though, I when I grew up, I didn't have a great uh I didn't have a great view of NOPD. You know, uh there's a lot of things that occurred, there's a lot of corruption, a scandal. But one that sp uh specifically touched me was uh the Algeria 7. That was in 1980. An officer was killed not too far from the neighborhood I grew up in, and I remember as a 10-year-old being deathly afraid of cops because of the way I saw them treat people in the neighborhood following that incident, and it stuck with me. Um so I just want to give you an idea of it's not something that I I've always wanted to be, you know. You talk to some guys, hey, I've always wanted to be a cop. Nah, that wasn't me, but I once I did join, I met a lot of great people, I worked with a lot of great police officers, and it's one of the best things I've ever done in life. And I'm not trying to throw out cliches, that's that's the absolute truth. Well that's how I ended up, that's how I ended up where I was with NOPD.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, for some perspective and context, when you joined, about what year was that?
SPEAKER_04:That was 97. Chief Pennington had been there three years. Uh, there were still some scandals that were going on. The uh Antoinette Frank scandal, I believe, was 96 or 97. So we were still reeling from that. And it was, like you said before, it wasn't a great time to join.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and a few years before that, if I recall correctly, there was the time of uh the NOPD officers that were unfortunately uh using the badge uh uh to masquerade their drug trafficking activities, and they had been caught in a sting operation with the FBI. Uh so yeah, the the there was a lot of um bad reputation associated with the NOPD at that time, unfortunately, uh despite the the number of uh fantastic officers that were working there. Um so tell us about the training that you went through.
SPEAKER_04:Um the training was very intense. Uh my training consisted of firearms training, the qualifications. You had to qualify with a certain score of passing, I believe that was 80%. Uh we took criminal and traffic laws as well as constitutional law and civil rights. We also dealt with use of force, uh de-escalation, criminal investigative procedures, and uh that's about the during our and that's not including the field training that we took in the actual field following our four uh our four months in the academy. After four months in the academy, we said we spent four months in the street, uh basically being trained by an FTO, being reviewed every day, uh, learning the job, learning patrol, learning how to be safe, and things of that nature.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, at the time that you were undergoing training, do you remember more or less your class size?
SPEAKER_04:My class size, I believe, was 29. It was it was one of the largest classes in a few years. I believe my class was like 29 people.
SPEAKER_01:And demographically, was it a nice mix of men and women, uh different ethnicities, or did you find it leaning? Okay. Uh it was. And what about college education? Because at that time, I don't think uh college degree was a requirement, correct?
SPEAKER_04:No, it wasn't. Uh I I remember a few guys that started college or went to college, but I don't think I think I might have been one or uh there was one or two of us that were college graduates. But like you said, it wasn't a requirement, and not many people uh had it at that point.
SPEAKER_01:And were there others like you that joined despite having perhaps a negative uh perception of NOPD or previous bad experiences?
SPEAKER_04:I'm gonna say the previous bad experiences, but that time there was a lot of uh news coverage, there was a lot of uh banter about NOPD. So we'd have we'd have discussions uh during our training. For instance, we had some people that came out of town. At that time, they were actively recruiting people from out of town. And people when they came in, they actually saw, you know, they they they'd see the city, they'd see the stories, and they would, you know, they would have their questions. And some of them actually completed the training and immediately left. It was more they wanted to get that post certification and go somewhere else, and that's what they did. A couple of people. It was like three or four people that I remember offhand.
SPEAKER_01:And and tell us about your first year. What was that like?
SPEAKER_04:Oh man. My I will tell you it's one of the most exciting and scariest things I've ever done. I mean, I can't describe to you that feeling that you have when you're going out from call to call. Now, in your mind, when you finish training in the academy, you actually think that it's gonna it's gonna be car chases, foot chases, and everything else, getting a bad guy. But a lot of it is just paperwork. I mean, a lot of it is paperwork, learning how to patrol, learning how to deal with people. Uh we used to call it customer service. Interacting with people, responding to uh victims, learning how to handle investigations. And that was even more intense because you had somebody basically standing over your shoulder, revealing everything you did. And that that was the majority of uh the training. Once you get you once you like three or four FTOs, and once you did that, there was uh a probationary period where you were on your own. And that particular time is when you're developing your style, developing your patrol style, and taking usually it's taking the best thing for me. It was taking the best thing that each FTO had, so I could put it in my toolbox. That's the way I thought of it. And the stuff that they did that I didn't like or I didn't think was beneficial to me, or the way I operated, I eliminated. And that was the one thing I I made sure I did. No matter who I trained with, I made sure that there was something that I took from each one that was positive and that I can use to make me a better police officer.
SPEAKER_01:At that time, and it's probably I think still the same, but there were eight districts for NOPD, correct?
unknown:Correct.
SPEAKER_01:And which district were you assigned to?
SPEAKER_04:I was uh initially assigned to the Bucaret District, the 8th district, French Quarter.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Oh nice place to start.
SPEAKER_04:It was a lot of a lot of people moaned and groaned when they heard the assignments because everybody wanted that assignment.
SPEAKER_01:How'd Patrick get that assignment? Who did he bribe to get it?
SPEAKER_04:I don't know. I know it was it was it it was it was a blessing, man, because I learned a lot and I've met a lot of great people in the 8th district. I'm still friends with tons of people that I met there. It was a great place to start.
SPEAKER_01:Reflecting back to that initial year and your field training officers, uh, do any particular lessons come to mind uh from those field training officers at this moment, or they've kind of just blended into the recesses of your memory?
SPEAKER_04:No, every single one of them left something with me, whether it was positive or negative. Uh the one that sticks out to me right now is I remember going on a call. It was it was actually my first FTO. I won't mention his name. But and I remember we went on a call as a possible theft or robbery. It's been a it's been a long time. But I can remember he had several years on the job, and he was doing other things while he was being a police officer. So we went on this one particular call, and I remember the woman had been victimized, and it she had been reluctant to call. And she called, and I remember walking up there, and he let me do a little talking, but he handled the investigation. But it was kind of for me, it left a bad taste in my mouth because it was obvious that he wasn't interested in the incident, and he was he was skeptical of her story. But he was skeptical from the beginning. He didn't even let her get the story out, explain what happened. Just standing by watching from uh my point of view, I was like, I would I would have been better suited just listening to the story, asking those follow-up questions that you had concerns with and then developing if you thought she was if you developing uh questions to determine if she's lying or she's making something up, you know. I just really felt I remember that moment it felt like she was victimized twice. And I remember I remember to myself, I said, I would never, I would never be that type of officer. And that was the one thing I remember from uh him.
SPEAKER_01:So turning things around, uh were you or did you have the opportunity to be a field training officer? I did. Did you did you stick did you stick to a particular sort of uh way of teaching or mentoring? Uh I did.
SPEAKER_04:I did. I I think it's important to be able to talk to everyone the same. It doesn't matter who they are who they are or where they're from. That was very important to me. Um that saves you a lot of trouble in the long run because if people see that you respect them, they're gonna usually, usually they're gonna respect you as well. But part of that comes from my training. I had the pleasure of training under Captain Ernest Demmer. He's still on the job, I believe. This guy has like 55 years on the job. You don't do 55 years on this job being an asshole. So uh, so he was a real good guy, and I remember in in uh in my training at the academy, what I loved about him was he made sure to spend time with every single recruit. And whether he was criticizing you or praising you, he had the same tone. Okay. It was just the coolest thing I ever saw, ever saw. Hey, you're not doing well, you're failing a firearm, you might be out of here. You need to work harder. Hey, you did a good job. Keep it up. Same tone, and he's just a great guy. So I I remember that from him, and I also remembered that I used from Dem in my training. He always said there's gonna be times when you're gonna be on scenes and you're gonna get stuff wrong. Never ever hesitate to say I'm sorry or I was wrong. Just because we're wearing badges and bullyproof hats, that doesn't mean we're supermen. We're supermen. You have to be able to do that. And I had no problem doing that because it makes it easier for you. It makes it easier for you.
SPEAKER_01:Well, speaking about that, we'll we'll deviate slightly, mentioning we're not supermen, um, and addressing sort of that perception sometimes the public has of a law enforcement officer, a uniformed officer on the street, whether it's NOPD, NYPD, San Francisco PD, Houston, anywhere in the state. So our sheriff's office uh in one of the Midwestern uh states. Um the the misconception the public has of what a law enforcement officer is actually capable of. You know, why why don't you comment on that? Uh, because you know there's this idea out there, they're gonna show up and you know be able to save the day or solve the crime or whatever it is.
SPEAKER_04:And what I what I will tell you to to start with is not like the movies. You don't call the police and they come there in 15 seconds. That doesn't happen. Usually that doesn't happen. But the the the thing that we have to remember is that it police work is very complicated. There you have three or four guys working in a division, they're handling calls. Nine times out of ten, it's gonna be a minute before they get there, unless you're in an area where you have a lot of officers and they're gonna respond, but it's not gonna be running and gunning, stopping, uh that's what they call it, running and gunning, stopping all the criminals. It's mostly what I talked about before. It's going on routine patrol, sit being in areas, being visible, interacting with the community. Um they may think some police officers are superheroes, but they're not the human beings. And I hear a lot of of interaction with the cops. It's like, oh, the cop seemed like he was in a bad mood. The cop was he wasn't friendly. Part of that comes from the training that they have, that we have.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:You know, you're always you're always preparing for the worst sometimes. So sometimes it's hard to take that level down. That's why you have police officers who when they finish, they end up not lasting too long as a regular human being because that adrenaline level is up. You could be doing the most mundane thing in the world. You could be having a cup of coffee in a coffee shop. You're still on alert, you're still paying attention. You're sitting there having a cup of coffee, and then you get a call about a robber in progress. You get a call about a cabinet treat. I mean, it's gonna raise, it's gonna raise that that blood pressure level. It's gonna change it. But I don't know if that's what you were looking for as far as what people perceive police officers to be, but that's usually it. There's a lot of mundane stuff going on in between very serious things.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the key word you use is mundane, and uh about a minute or so ago, uh that LEOs, law enforcement officers, are human beings. Uh so uh they're they're not supermen, they're not superwomen, uh and they're gonna make mistakes, right? Uh and although we hold law enforcement to a higher standard, uh sometimes it can be unfairly so, right? Uh, because uh they're going in day in, day out. Uh the pay is not always that great, especially when you consider the risks that are involved. Uh and as I pointed out at the beginning of the podcast, regardless of the risk, uh just the stress of the job uh has uh impacts on an officer's personal health, mental, physical, both. And then there's also the ability to uh try to properly interview a victim, right? Uh you know, accumulate the evidence, you know, how is it the cops could get this wrong and it's because of them the criminal got away? Well, they they make mistakes. And at the end of the day, it all comes down to how effective your training was. Uh is there any additional training, continuing training, uh, as well as you know, each individual? And I'm sure you could elaborate on some of that.
SPEAKER_04:As far as training and how each individual?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, training. So, you know, was there additional training at NOPD? Uh, did they delve into the ethical side, you know, how to make decisions? Uh, you know, go beyond the tactical, you know, the hard skills and more on the soft skills. Uh, or did it simply stop after the first year and it was basically on-the-job training for the next five, ten, seventeen years?
SPEAKER_04:Most to be perfectly honest, most of it is on-the-job training, unless you have strong leaders in place who are willing to pass on that knowledge. They every day you go to roll call and they give you information. They we talk about the uh the daily operations of our our our our Bible that we use. We talk about our daily operation manual, these codes and stuff like that. But if you have some a strong leader who's actually going out there and talking to you about these things, training well, training you about these things, explaining these things to you, it makes you a more effective office officer because you can utilize that and add it to your toolbox. But a lot of times, the things we're talking about doing that makes you a better officer and a better uh community engager, it doesn't happen because of these things you're talking about. Handling calls, going to different roll calls, responding. Some of that stuff is not a situation where you can just come and leave. Some of that stuff gets you know, it's it's complicated. You stay there, you're waiting for uh additional units, you're waiting for a crash uh guy who does a crash, the crash uh reports for you. Sometimes it gets involved, and you don't you're not able to do stuff like that. But what they'll do is that every few months they'll give a course in uh whatever the topic is that's going on. Usually, unfortunately, it's something that's going on in the world, something that's happened on the job where you have to retrain to make sure more people don't do whatever that guy did or whatever that person did. So it's basically like a refresher. But a lot of that is going to be on you.
SPEAKER_01:Did you find that did you find that yourself or your peers uh throughout your career at NOPD were hungry for more formal training? For example, you'd listen during roll call and you had a ranking and exceptional uh commanding officer uh that is setting the example, but you're reflecting, man, it'd be great if we could take what this person is telling us and have that institutionalized so it becomes part of a formal training program uh because uh you you don't want things to always be driven at the individual level. The more you can get it across the organization, the more effective it is, right?
SPEAKER_04:Correct. And and that happens. There's times when we need to take other things into consideration. Like, for instance, when I was a supervisor in the A district, there was this um program that they put offices in that were considered problem officers. And what it would be is after uh a certain number of complaints, they would I forgot what the term is, bear with me, but they will use this term that this is a problem officer, and they'll take you off patrol and put you in the school for a while. Now, my thing, I tried to think of it outside the box was that my guys interacted with more people than anybody because they were assigned to Burbach at the time. And those guys were, they were, they were dealing with uh people that were intoxicated, people that were combative, people that were fighting. So the opportunity for them to get more complaints for uh arresting somebody, excessive force, or what may perceive the excessive force during the routine arrest, is gonna be more uh it's gonna be more of a chance that they're gonna get to school. Now the problem is it wasn't about confirmed cases, it it didn't have to be confirmed, it would have to be somebody makes a complaint and you get these certain numbers of complaints and they would go there. So I was I I basically tried to run run it up the chain that, hey, we need to consider this, and you know, it it went to the channels, but I haven't heard I didn't hear anything back from that. So the opportunity is there if you want to uh put it forward, but how far it how far to go depends on a lot of different things. And usually that's out of your uh that's out of your wheelhouse. Once you put that information out there, hey, this is a good idea, we should do this, let me document that. Where it goes, nobody knows sometimes.
SPEAKER_01:In terms of problem officers, um I recall when I was in college and I was considering NOPD, um and I found it interesting that at three different moments in my life in college and then afterwards, I had three different NOPD officers use the same kind of uh description that you're either a cop or you're an asshole. And did you find that when you were working as an officer uh on the streets there in New Orleans, that sometimes you would look at people and either think you're either a cop or you're an asshole, and that you had to make a concerted effort not to have that kind of view of the world? Or did you find that some of your peers were that way?
SPEAKER_04:That's a that's a lowly question, Maurice. To be perfectly honest, uh based on the way I am and the way I live and I feel about myself, like my guys they used to call me non-confrontational. Okay, it would be like, this is a non-confrontational sergeant. Nah, I just it was it was just that there's always gonna be a stage, there's there's either a solution or there's not. I don't need to be upset about any of it. I don't need to walk around with chest out and be upset and and have that cop face, but it happens. You know, I know a lot of cops that are assholes. But but I mean, so you know, that could be that can be the right description for some people. You know, they they they see people, they see people that either like cops or they don't. Sometimes you gotta actually get through that gruff demeanor to get there.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:You might that because you know, they're automatically going, you know, like we said, they're automatically going to be kind of uh standoffish when you first see them. And that's usually the case with any cop, because it comes, it's basically that stuff we talk about, always being on alert, always expecting the worst to happen. Because that's how we train, that's to wait, that's what we do. Well, and there's a potential that it can happen.
SPEAKER_01:And that's all and and and it does happen. You've been in those situations, uh, and you end up seeing other sides of uh society that others don't, right? And and speaking of that, um are there any particular routine or ridiculous calls that you can recall uh that actually gave you valuable lessons in being a police officer, despite the fact it was just a routine call?
SPEAKER_04:One that stands out, man, I think about it often. Often, it was it started out as uh a missing person. And it was on a Sunday. It was a missing person, and uh the wife was looking for her husband, he left the church three or four hours later, uh earlier, and hadn't hadn't found it. So since we were in that area, we were we were looking. The church was on the 100 block of uh Karan Delette, I believe, something like that. I forgot what that church is. So we're patrolling that area, and we got some updated information a little while later. The wife had seen the car in front of his office building, which was not too far from the church. So she goes to his office and she finds she finds that he's committed suicide. Oh. So and the thing about it that was just I I think about it quite so often because she called as soon as she found him, and they they had been married like 50 or 60 years. What happened was we taught I talked to her, and she said that he had a terminal illness, and he decided to do that, and he he wanted to do it in the office because he didn't want her to find him like that. And there was this moment, Maurice, I'll never forget, it was just me and her, and I was getting additional units and stuff, and she stood there and she looked at me and she said, He's all I know, he's all I have. And and she reached to give me a hug, and I gave her a hug. I I held her and let her cry for as long as she she needed to cry.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And when I was done, you know, she called her daughter and her daughter came. But at that moment, it just made me realize it's not always what you think it's gonna be. Sometimes you're gonna get a moment, it's like, shit. That's the type of stuff that happens. We are not gonna be out there just handling calls. You might have to be a counselor, you might have to comfort people, you might have to be a friend. Sometimes you gotta step out of that role. We're human beings. We're human beings, and that is the way I always used to try to make people feel. I never wanted to go to a scene where somebody encountered some type of bad situation, a bad incident. I never wanted to leave with them feeling worse, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it does. And do you think the training you received? Uh, and and and this is not about uh finding fault with the training. Uh, this is about identifying how training can be approved, perhaps, or where focus should be placed. Did you find your training, at least back then, prepared you for moments like that, or only slightly, or absolutely?
SPEAKER_04:I think it's a combination of both because, like I mentioned before, I happened to be in an academy class with a that was led by a man that was extremely empathetic, that cared about people, and that showed he cared about people. My particular class had some great individuals, and we were good to each other. We cared about each other, we helped us through, and that that transformed, that transformed us, and we try to, most of us that I know of, we try to pass that on. And they're great officers, they're good human beings. Some of the training, some of the trainings adequate, but to be perfectly honest, unless you spend remedial sessions and and uh academies, you'll never be prepared for some of the stuff that's gonna happen. You can never be ready for it.
SPEAKER_01:However, what would you agree there's some truth to say the phrase you never rise to the occasion, you fall to your level of preparation? I I would agree with that. Okay. Now, that preparation, you know, can be at an institutional level, like in a police department. But when we speak of an individual such as yourself, your level of preparation specific, Patrick Baxter, was not just the training you received at NOPD, it was your own upbringing. You were educated at a Jesuit university. Uh so everybody's also gonna uh be confronting or addressing situations in addition to the training, the formal training they received through their organization, but also through their own particular backgrounds, right?
SPEAKER_04:And what what do you I think that matters?
SPEAKER_01:What what do you think from your particular background helped you make uh help make you a better officer?
SPEAKER_04:I think all of it. I think the training, I think the people that are I encountered during my uh during my training on my way up, my mom, I mean, not wanting to embarrass my mom and my mom always telling me, make sure you're a good police officer, make sure you treat people right. And part of that too is my faith, you know. I I I don't I don't usually share that part of it, but that that's something that I rely on sometimes when I reach points where like, you know, I don't feel comfortable doing certain things, or I feel stressed, or I'm because you know, when you're doing what we did as police officers, you can get extremely stressed. And it has to be something outside of your training, outside of the people surrounding you that you rely on to for comfort and to balance things out, you know. And for me, that that was part of it, like having having my faith and knowing that there's a higher power and he's gonna take care of me. Whatever that is to some people, I mean, I know what it is to me, it might be different from other people. You need something to level you out and to keep you on a path where you remain positive and you're a good person. Usually when people have situations where they're assholes or they they they're running around upset and doing crazy things on the job, they're not centered.
SPEAKER_00:Somewhere. Something is lacking there. But do you think one can teach that?
SPEAKER_04:I'm not sure. I think I think it depends on the person. Okay. You you can pour experience into a person, you can pour training into a person, that person can be phenomenal doing certain things, but they end up being terrible human beings because that's who they are. Sometimes that's what manifests itself. We we're not all built the same. Sometimes people go wrong. There's there's a lot of factors that affect you. I know great, great, great people that did crazy things. You know, and they they they received the best training, they're good human beings, but something else comes in there and it changes who they are and it changes the path they're on.
SPEAKER_01:Um, what was it like working with the district attorney's office for Orleans Parish?
SPEAKER_04:It depends. It usually depends on which one. I spent more time when I was a younger officer because I was trying to make a lot of cases. What I did learn from that was as long as I made sure my reports were as detailed as possible, I made sure I located witnesses if they were there, if there were any cameras or evidence that needed to be submitted. I made sure the report had it. I contacted the other officers who, the other, the other detectives that would do the follow-up. So I tried to be as detailed as possible. I mean, you're always gonna have situations where you don't have people, you don't have people that are performing at their best. And it, you know, if you get to court this time, it's like I'm a firm believer you need to be prepared for certain things. You shouldn't get on the stand if you don't have an opportunity to talk to the prosecutor. It should never be something that's rushed, you know, and that happens sometimes. You know, for obvious reasons. You know, they they have a schedule too, there's a lot going on with them, but that was that was uh with my in my limited experience, it was just the preparation.
SPEAKER_01:What were some of your greatest frustrations as a police officer?
SPEAKER_04:One of my greatest frustrations in something in one of my last assignments, it was I don't know if it was something that was coming from the top or something that happened at the district level, but we had a bunch of great officers, but for some reason on my particular platoon, I had just arrived as a supervisor, and this this particular district is like 75 uh square miles. I come to work sometime, there'd be two officers and two so two supervisors. And I remember distinctly one night we had a shooting. It was three victims at a party, and like there were there were shell cases everywhere. So I have we have myself and the lieutenant are out there because we didn't have officers to respond at the time. We literally had to wait for an officer to get cleared. That was a frustration for me. The manpower thing personnel, so that that was a uh a problem at the end.
SPEAKER_01:Speaking of manpower and NOPD specifically, uh, I don't know how much you keep up, but right now they're they're suffering one of their greatest manpower shortages uh in the past few decades. Uh I mean, if there are any NOPD officers listening or just any uh street officers listening from any department or sheriff's office that is facing manpower shortages, uh what what insights or what guidance would you share with them?
SPEAKER_04:Insights, guidance is my my stance on that is this officer safety comes first in this particular instance. Never put yourself in a position where you respond to a call where you're not prepared, you're not backed up properly. I don't care if there's two officers in there and in on the platoon and they get a call. If it's a call that requires more than one officer, if you can't respond, see if you can get assistance from the neighboring district, no matter how far it is. Your life is too important to put it on the line for a situation like that. And it happens sometimes. You know, we had a we also had a policy in the district that I'm referring to where they and it also goes back to what I was talking about, where they they retrain you or they come up with these, excuse me, these protocols for responding to things. A sergeant uh ended up getting shot because he responded to a mental situation, and the the guy ended up grabbing his gun and shooting him. So they came up with this uh directive that in order to respond to a mental situation, you needed two officers and a supervisor. Now, the prop the problem with that is I was in the district, I was in the district where in one night we had like three mental calls, and they all had to be placed on the back burner because we only had a few officers working, and we never had that amount of officers and supervisors free for like eight hours. So it was it wasn't good. But the one thing that you know that I did, and there were times where the dispatcher would call me as a supervisor, and she said, uh, well, this car's been holding for such and such. We need to go over there. How many supervisors do we need? We need one supervisor. How many patrol officers do we need? Two. When we get that, then we'll go over there. Safety is paramount as far as I'm concerned. So if you're out there, nothing mattered more than your safety. You only get one life.
SPEAKER_01:That's true. And with that in mind, I mean, I guess it's basically the same thing you would want GQ public to know. Uh, you know, especially for departments that are facing manpower shortages. Uh, officer safety is paramount. Uh, is there anything else you'd want the regular public to know uh about life uh as an officer?
SPEAKER_04:I think that it's important to remember and treat officers as if they're part of the community. I think that's an important thing to remember, and it's something that we need to put at the forefront of police work. In any police department, if you are in tune with the community and you have people that can get out of their car and walk on that block and interact with those people, and they know they know Miss Evelyn's name, they know that Joey's going to school next week, they know Leroy cut school last week. These are the type of things that the public needs to know about the officers. They're not just officers, they're part of the community. Now that sometimes gets it gets lost in the in the current uh ideal with a police officer is you go out here and you put go out here and you put people in jail, you make arrests, you get the drugs off the street. The problem with that is sometimes the people that they're uh they're arresting and and and putting in jail. I mean, sorry, they're putting in jail, they're arresting, they're stopping for tickets, are the same people part of the community that you have to go back to and ask for information on this particular crime. And we need to put focus on that part of it because and this is just me talking. Yes, this is just my idea. I I think the idea of task force task forces in certain areas, I think is something that needs to be done away with. Because the problem with the task force is are is this or are these? They give you a take-home car, they give you good hours. Work Monday through Friday, certain hours. The only thing you have to do is make arrests. So, in order to keep those cars, to keep those good hours, guys are gonna make arrest. And sometimes they might feel obligated to make arrests when they don't necessarily have to. What happens in that case? Instead of giving somebody a summons or or or chalking it up to a warning, people put people in jail, people put people in handcuffs, take them out of their communities, and then you lose trust in the community. And that's that's that's just my viewpoint. That's how I feel about that. I think there's too much emphasis on that test force mentality.
SPEAKER_01:Speaking of emphasis uh and mentalities, well what what would you have to say of the following? That sometimes the way we capture the mission or the goal of, in this case, uh an organization and specifically a police department, uh how much that can influence the direction we go in strategically, tactically, uh, as an example. You know, well, police officers are there to fight crime. Or, well, the police officers are there to make the community safer. From your perspective, do you think it makes a difference how we phrase what the role of the officer is?
SPEAKER_04:100%. 100%. It it creates an image in your mind when you hear those words. I mean, let's let's let's think about, let's use the term here now. You you feel a certain way when you hear Secretary of Defense, and then you hear Department of War, Secretary of War. It makes you feel a different a different way. That Particular phrase you used, that is something the community feels part of. But when we talk about this declaring war on people, it it's it's not good. Because that mentality once again leads to what we talked about just now. We're not in occupied territory. These people are our community members. They're people that we're gonna we're gonna see every day that they're gonna need us, and there might be a case when you need them. So you need to make sure that relationship is strong and is trustworthy. So there's not a lot of emphasis on these terms. And to be perfectly blunt, I don't know if the current age we're living in, if there's a place for that type of those type of phrases, because I think they're using the wrong term for phrases like that. We could be, we can have empathy and care about people and still do an effective job.
SPEAKER_01:Am I hearing that at least for you, you're an advocate and a believer that empathy is a fundamental element of being an effective law enforcement officer?
SPEAKER_04:110%. 110%. Then that is something that is lacking. I don't know if it's because of the experiences we have as police officers. Uh, we become cynical or it's something that happens over time, but I see that a lot with experienced officers, officers who work for years. You're used to hearing certain things. You're used to getting the BS stories, you're used to people lying, but that should make it harder, that should make it easier for you to be to be empathetic. Hey, I know it happens, but I'm not gonna stoop to always thinking that this person's lying to me or this person is looking for an angle. But that's a that's a one that's something we talked about earlier. That's that's that's a lot of training. And then you or do you have the do you have the type of person that's willing to accept that training, willing to accept these experiences, and use that training and that information in the field? That's where it happens because we're talking about a profession Maurice. After I receive my training, I'm in the car by myself for eight hours. Outside of my regular sergeant and my lieutenant, I'm my supervisor.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:In the wrong hands, there's a there's a lot of temptation and danger there. So you have to be the right type of person, you have to have the right type of mentality for this job. It's not for everybody.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then when you consider again what the job consists of, um, what the pay is, um, you know, so if people can do better elsewhere, right, uh, you're only gonna have a certain pool of individuals who are gonna be willing uh to make the sacrifice to become an officer, right? I mean, uh it's kind of funny. A lot of times we expect a lot more out of law enforcement, but by the same token, it's well, how many people are willing to go do that kind of work, right? Um, and I think it's an overlooked aspect of how difficult policing is, and not just from the safety point of view. Again, as as you pointed out, you had that routine call, uh, someone's husband was missing, and it turned out he had committed suicide. Uh I'm sure that had a huge impact on you, and it would have a huge impact on any officer. And so that that builds stress into the equation. Uh so with that in mind, you know, how can say uh the city, the city government, and especially now that a new mayor has been elected for New Orleans, uh, how can the city do better to support uh or try to influence uh enable uh a department like New Orleans Police Department to be better, to do better.
SPEAKER_04:I think it's it once again it goes back to what we're talking about. A lot of this has to be community-oriented, community-oriented, community-oriented-oriented policing is is the is the way you gain the trust of the community. Then, you know, it makes it easy for the community to interact with you. I'm sorry, with you. Where I'm from, some of the areas I grew up in, people don't feel comfortable talking to police, people don't feel comfortable interacting with police. It's important that she chooses the right person or maintains the right person, and they have a they have a steadfast approach to interacting with the community, loving this community, making sure that they are part of the community and continuing to whatever they need to do to move forward with that and developing that relationship. Without that, you're gonna have chaos. Because the things that are going on in New Orleans, Boston, wherever, none of it can be taken care of unless you have the input from the community. That's where they get the information from, that's who's looking, and that's the people that you're gonna go to. So whoever the mayor is, she needs to choose a police officer or police chief that's willing to make sure his officers respect the community, and the community has to trust these guys, and that's a it goes both ways. Respect us, we'll trust you, and hopefully it develops. There's a lot of work that's involved with that, and that's why a lot of people don't want to be invested in that. To develop trust takes a while. You can go out there and put somebody in jail in five minutes. Oh, we got a number, here's a stat. We got a we got a guy in jail for suspended license. That takes five minutes. We're talking about weeks of gaining people's trust in the community. That's why it's hard to people don't people don't want to be involved in that process because it takes a while. And you don't necessarily, you don't necessarily see it right away.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
SPEAKER_04:You know, people you don't necessarily see it right away. There's times when something will happen in the community, that guy is gonna call and say, hey, here's where he lives, this is what he was wearing, this is what he did. If he doesn't trust you and he doesn't want to be involved here, you'll never get that. That's just my take on it.
SPEAKER_01:On on the lighter side, having been with NOPD 17 years, uh Patrick, um, pull pull the curtain back so people uh have some insights onto what it takes for the city of New Orleans to make Mardi Gras safe year after year. Uh what goes into that?
SPEAKER_04:That takes a lot of people with the common goal who are willing to do their job for a long period of time until Mardi Gras's over. The work that goes into that behind the scenes is impressive because you all have people from every district. You know, you got to think about this. A lot of people don't think about this. You have police officers along the entire parade route. They're in the Frenchwater, and they're also patrolling in these areas where where uh people going to Mardi Gar are going back and forth to their cars. That's a lot of work that goes into it. And it's it's also pretty impressive, too, because you have other agencies that come in from various departments. Sometimes you have uh like Jefferson Paris, sometimes you may have uh National Guard sometimes standing by, and it's an impressive effort to make sure everyone's safe. I mean, there's no city that manages crowd control like New Orleans does. And that's even in an in an in an area where there's manpower shortage, there's officers, uh officers are lagging, those guys are the best at that. Or think about it, Super Bowl, Mardi Gras, all of it. And then there's conventions every weekend, and they still manage to keep those fairly safe. There's a lot involved in that. There's a lot of planning, there's a lot of sacrifice. A lot of those officers work a long, long hours. And then you have uh SWAT teams there, and I think one of the most impressive things are the mounted patrol. You have horses able to navigate through thousands of people without people getting injured. It's it's it's an amazing thing to see.
SPEAKER_01:Did you ever have an opportunity to be part of the uh mounted patrol?
SPEAKER_04:No, I'm not a horse guy. No.
SPEAKER_01:Well, going from keeping uh the city and the revelers and uh the people that come visit during Mardi Gras safe year after year. Um now, Katrina, you know, you were an officer at that time and you stayed behind among many others. Uh you know, tell us a little bit about that experience. What was it like? Because I mean that was uh your 9-11, so to say, however, and and for the city. But even though I was uh I was working elsewhere at the time, I would say that I think I can say confidently, big difference between 9-11 for those in New York and Katrina for New Orleans is uh in New York the event of itself was a finite event. Obviously, the response went on and on after that, and you had an influx of folks. Uh but and in in New Orleans, I'm sure there was probably a feeling or a thought uh that when is this going to end? Um you know, you know, that there were moments where you were thinking, you know, when are we gonna get past this where we can actually start effectively responding? So uh share whatever experiences you would like to regarding that time, what you would what you want people to know uh about Katrina, now you, your colleagues at the time who responded, uh and lessons learned that you would like other first responders to be aware of uh when it's their turn to deal with the catastrophe.
SPEAKER_04:Well, um to be, you know, to be frank, man, I that's something that I try to keep in the dark recesses of my mind. I don't really like going there sometimes, to be honest, because it brings me to a place that I didn't like, you know, because uh, you know, we think about uh hurricane responses, it's usually the same thing. You you uh end up staying in the hotel or you stay in the station for a few days, it blows over, you get the power back, and you keep it moving. But uh this one, you know, it was it was it was different for me because I had a three-month-old son and I had a five-year-old daughter and my wife, and uh they ended up leaving, so I will, I was uh I was comfortable because I in my mind I thought they were out of the the city. But um, you know, I was in a hotel, and I I don't mean I don't I'm not trying to sound overly dramatic, but I remember waking up, hearing this, hearing a bunch of ruckus, and I looked out of the hotel windows, and there were things knocked over, some windows were blown out, and the the wind was so strong, it was, you know, you could see the rain basically moving sideways, trees leaning sideways, and I had this airy feeling. And I was like, this, you know, I said, this is something else. This something's not right. So I mean it started off. It started off, you know, there was this point where we were basically doing basic patrols, but at some point it just became something crazy. A couple of days later, you know, we're still, you know, radios aren't working, telephones aren't working, I don't know where my family is. And all of a sudden people started, you know, we we in the hotel I was staying, and people started looting, like we see people coming in and in and out of the hotel. So I was staying at a hotel with a with my partner at the time, and I was like, man, we gotta get out of here. So we ended up getting word to move to the station, and we went to the station, and the city was supposed to be evacuated, but it just went downhill after that. The phones aren't working, no one knows what's going on. And at one point, man, it it was, you know, we would have a good leader at that time, so he basically came up with this uh patrol. He became up with this patrol. We'd have two officers every 12 hours protecting a certain uh location, things that we needed, like food or medicine at the AMP in the 700 block of Royal, and we'd switch out on that, and we'd have officers patrolling at night, making sure the areas were safe. And it just eventually started going downhill because you know we talk about the training and the mentality and stuff like that, and having uh having an idea of what you're doing and being prepared, but we I wasn't prepared for any of this. And nobody else was prepared for any of this. You know, we started hearing rumors about a couple of officers committing suicide, and then you know, we had a couple of officers that left. So everything, you know, started to snowball. It was it was it was absolutely frightening. Because it's at one point it seemed like it was like you said, it at one point it was like, wait a minute, when is this shit gonna end? What's going on there? Where's where where's where's the hell? Where's the National Guard? It may have been four or five days, seven days, but it seemed like forever, bro. It seemed like forever. I remember had a singular uh telephone. No, it wasn't single, I had another company, but that that phone wouldn't work. Like, so I couldn't get in touch with anybody. And I ended up we we the police department moved into the hotel, it was the St. Louis Hotel, and we protected it. And we ended up having uh using the telephone there. So mind you, I couldn't nobody's cell phone was working. So I ended up calling my uh my ex now, calling her dad at his house, and uh, and I was like, hey, I'm trying to get in touch with Michelle. Have you heard where she is? And he said that they ended up being diverted because they were trying to go to Florida, but the traffic was so bad that they turned them around. And they ended up, they ended up staying with some friends in Mississippi. So it was one of those things where it it was just the uncertainty, the fear, and still maintaining and doing in your your oath, hey, I'm if I don't do it, who's gonna do it? I remember distinctly saying that. Because in my mind I was nervous. I was like, man, my kids gone, my wife's gone. But I remember I was thinking, if I leave, then who's gonna protect the city? It became, you know, and that's how I thought about it. That's what helped me stay. So I don't know if that's the answer you were looking for, but that's that's what that's what Katrina means to me. But it was just it was totally chaos.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think other officers were thinking the same way?
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely. Absolutely. I I I saw more grown men cry during those few days than police policemen cry in those few days than than I ever seen in my whole career. There was a lot involved in it. Because I mean you think about it. Every officer has the indiv individual family, they have their home, some lost their homes, some some lost relatives, and yet you have to be here and protect the city. That's funny.
SPEAKER_01:Out of curiosity, you make me think for a moment. Did you ever feel or do you think any of the your fellow officers at the time felt a certain sense of betrayal uh during Katrina?
SPEAKER_04:I don't think betrayal is the right word. When you say betrayal, you mean as far as the department is concerned?
SPEAKER_01:No, more in terms of precisely um you're you're working, uh, you're doing your best to not only enforce the law, but protect the community, uh, help people that are in need. But it's like you you also know you're acutely aware you can't do it all on your own. And you know, logic dictates, especially in a country like the United States, you know, help should be arriving, and that's the betrayal I'm talking about. Did you ever have that kind of sense, or what did you ever sense that kind of uh mood that, you know, are people just leaving us alone?
SPEAKER_04:Uh absolutely there was one point where we ended up, we started patrolling around the convention center in that area. And that area, that area was tough to see, tough to deal with, you know, seeing families. You know, I I distinctly remember patrolling over there, and a woman came to my to my car and she was like, hey, you know, I have my two babies and I only have one bottle of milk left. Can you help me? And I remember that was just, oh man, it was just tough because I'm thinking to myself, I I remember looking at it and saying, man, I don't even know where my my family is, man. And it wasn't that I was being rude, it was just that that's what it was. But I did feel that betrayal because during these whole interactions, we're seeing people, we're seeing people, some people fighting in the street, and the word came down that National Guard was gonna arrive that particular day. But they didn't. Which made which which which pissed some people off. But they ended up coming the next day, but man, you know, a lot of officers were excited because hey, they're gonna be here today, but they didn't. And we ended up staying there till till it started, till night started to set in, and that was that was another eerie feeling.
SPEAKER_01:Post Katrina, uh, did the department uh ever take an opportunity uh to try to organize lessons learned from that experience, or did it just simply move on?
SPEAKER_04:No, no, I think they definitely developed some uh they developed some uh principles and foundations that they installed in the uh in the department that they they utilize now that they use since then. And I think also they uh they they did a good job of making sure everyone that was there was you know they were debriefed and had an opportunity to talk the things through that they that we saw in our It could have been more, to be perfectly honest, it could have been more, but they did make an attempt.
SPEAKER_01:For you, what was a particular lesson learned that uh you recall from that time? What did you take away from it personally as as an individual? Uh you know, as a regular citizen of the the city, but also as a law enforcement officer.
SPEAKER_04:As a law enforcement officer, I realized that I was stronger than I thought I was. And I'm not talking about physically. I realized that I was stronger than I thought I was, and I also realized how much I love this city. I realized how much I love this city.
SPEAKER_01:I can definitely relate to that. Um definitely relate to that. Um Okay. Shifting a little bit. Um 17 years patrolling the streets in New Orleans. If you were king for the day, so to say, from your perspective, what criminal laws do you think we should probably reassess uh in terms of whether making certain activities illegal or in terms of prison sentences, again, your perspective as an officer on the streets, what do you think our legislators should consider uh when it comes to the criminal law?
SPEAKER_04:I think, and this is just me, yeah, king for the day. I think severe punishment for drug offenses needs to be reassessed. I think this is just me. I think over the overall they are unfair and target certain communities. That's just the way I feel. I think certain drugs in certain communities are targeted. I think then there needs to be some emphasis in the court system and legislation that there's uh programs that they can utilize to uh rehabilitate people. And I'm talking about strong programs to rehabilitate people that allow them the opportunity to get better. I think that needs to be something that should be possible for certain people. I mean, not everybody's gonna be able to bounce back from going to jail for drugs, but there's some people who are gonna who are gonna bounce back and they're gonna move forward. But I don't think a continuous uh cycle of putting people in jail for petty drugs and letting them come out and doing the same thing, I don't think that's I don't think that's a good thing, and I think it's something we need to reassess. The other thing, and it always bothered me, was the I think anti-homeless laws are worthless. We're putting homeless people in jail. We're we're giving homeless people summons for sleeping in public and things of that nature. And these people can't pay the fines because they're homeless, so it's a vicious cycle that is gonna go on and on. So I think if I were if I were King for a day, those are the two things that I want to address as far as laws were concerned.
SPEAKER_01:Any final thoughts that you'd like to share uh with the audience? Something that you know personal you would like to communicate to folks out there, regardless of their backgrounds?
SPEAKER_04:No, man, I just uh I appreciate you giving me the opportunity. What really makes me uh feel good is our relationship. I met you in the past. We didn't have uh, we weren't excellent friends, but you know, meeting you and talking to you, I realized that we're a lot alike, we have a lot of things in common. I think in this day and age, it's important for people to interact with your neighbor, love your neighbor, and enjoy that time because you know, some of the things that are going on in this world we need to, we need to we need to be good to each other. So we gotta start doing stuff like that. That's what I would share.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I appreciate that. Uh again, this has been a a privilege for me. Uh, I appreciate you sharing your experiences as well as for the public. Um, and also thank you to the audience for listening, and especially a shout out to the men and women of the New Orleans Police Department, as well as to all law enforcement officers in the United States and anywhere else. As your host, Maurice Brungart, I welcome you to join us again next week and that you invite others to also follow along, Brungart Law is Landing App, where we provide a little extra perspective because the devil is always in the details. Patrick, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_04:All right, brother, take care.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.