Brungardt Law's Lagniappe
A little extra perspective from Brungardt Law conveyed through conversations with individuals of various backgrounds exploring the interplay of practices, policies, and laws with decision making and leadership. An opportunity to learn how to navigate towards productive outcomes as well as appreciate the journey through the experiences and observations of others.
Brungardt Law's Lagniappe
The Librarian Challenging Book Bans: A Conversation with Amanda Jones
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Today’s guest is Ms. Amanda Jones, a librarian in Livingston Parish, Louisiana, anti-censorship advocate, and past president of the Louisiana Association of School Librarians. Despite being cruelly defamed, shunned by members of her own community, and subjected to death threats, Ms. Jones has steadfastly been a voice of reason against book bans in Louisiana and the U.S. In 2023, she was awarded the American Association of School Librarians' Intellectual Freedom Award and the American Library Association's Paul Howard Award for Courage. She is also the author of That Librarian: The Fight Against Book Banning in America.
It was a pleasure to burn. If you have read Fahrenheit 451, the quote resonates. Ray Bradbury's 1953 dystopian novel about a future when we have outlawed books is a fantastic and cautionary commentary about government censorship. Yet, has fiction morphed into reality considering that since 2021, over 20,000 books have been banned in public schools nationwide? What books are being banned and for what reasons? Welcome to Brungart Laws Lanyard, where we provide a little extra perspective through conversations. I'm Maurice Brungart, your host. I enjoy engaging with experienced, knowledgeable, and passionate individuals for the opportunity it affords to enrich our understanding of the world through their eyes. The more we learn, the more likely we can become better versions of ourselves, guide others towards the same, and perhaps have a little fun along the way. Today's guest is Miss Amanda Jones. She is a librarian in Livingston Parish, Louisiana, an anti-censorship advocate, and past president of the Louisiana Association of School Librarians. She is also the author of That Librarian: The Fight Against Books Banning in America. Welcome to the program, Ms. Jones. Thank you for having me. Well, it's a pleasure. Tell us about yourself. Tell us uh about how you became a librarian, uh, your community there in Livingston Parish.
SPEAKER_00So we are a very small community. We're not even um my my town is not even really a town. It's a cat it's categorized as a village. So uh we're not an unincorporated town. Um, but it sounds like I live like way out in the middle of nowhere. We are we have you know a McDonald's. But we're um we're a very small town uh in Louisiana, uh right outside Baton Rouge. And I have been working uh at the school that I'm at for 25 years, started as an English language arts teacher, and I became a school librarian. Uh I love the library, I love what I do, I love the kids, and I have lived in this community for 47 years. Um this year, my 25th year here uh at the school, I have 50-something grand students, which are students of children that I taught. I have um I work alongside uh some of my coworkers are kids that I taught that are adults now. Um, and it's it's just a your average small community in Louisiana, and I, you know, I love it, but we have we have some things to work on.
SPEAKER_01Um, were you a bookworm as a child or as a teenager?
SPEAKER_00Yes. My my mom is a retired kindergarten teacher, and she um would get the minivan and she'd take us to the public library every week growing up, often pick up a lot of my friends, and we'd all go to the library together. She read to us every night. Um, I have been a bookworm my entire life. Um, I love to read and I I just love to be around books, and I love to pass on that um love of reading to the kids. Hopefully they pick it up. Not always, but I try.
SPEAKER_01Yes, been there. And uh tell us about one of your favorite books from childhood or from your teenage years.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I guess one of my favorites, um, I'll talk I'll talk about a scandalous one. Uh Flowers in the Attic.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um I I loved VC Andrews. I still love V.C. Andrews. Um, but I it was one of the first books I read, probably fifth or sixth grade, that I um it was a little scandalous compared to, you know, it was like one of my first grown-up books, I guess you could say, because I was a big huge Beverly Cleary fan, Judy Bloom um fan, but I I read Flowers in the Attic at a younger age, and um it just opened up a whole new world. Those thicker novels. It was the first, like one of the thicker novels that I read. I was felt so accomplished that I had read a book that was bigger than one inch thick. Um, but I just I remember it with fondness. And you know, we look back now and I'm like, oh, I I kind of read that at a little bit of a young age, but that turned out okay.
SPEAKER_01Where did you end up going to uh university?
SPEAKER_00I went to Southeastern Louisiana University for my undergrad, my graduate, and uh uh postgraduate years, all at the same university because I love my I love my local school.
SPEAKER_01Uh thinking about that time, uh what do you think prepared you the most in terms of a particular professor or a course that you took, whether it was at the undergrad, graduate level, uh in your current pursuits as librarian and anti-censorship advocate?
SPEAKER_00Well, um, there were two classes that stick out, two courses that stick out. Um one was my uh it was Introduction to Young Adult Literature, which was taught by Dr. Andrea Laborde, um, who was the librarian at the lab school at the university that I attended, and she would read aloud to us. And she, I remember her reading aloud the books Hatchet and the Chocolate War, particularly in those classes, and that reignited um something in me, uh the passion that I had kind of lost in college because you get busy, you have a job. I had two jobs actually, and I was trying to attend school full-time and work. Um, but another one was uh my uh one of my censorship classes, I think it was actually called censorship, by Dr. Ann Nauman, and she really instilled into me that we have an obligation as librarians to make sure we are defending intellectual freedom and that resources are provided to everybody from all walks of life. So it was those two those two courses that have stuck out to me over the years.
SPEAKER_01Do you know if those two are still teaching today?
SPEAKER_00I think Dr. Ann Nauman has passed away. I've tried to find out what happened to her. She was older when she taught me 20 years ago. Um, I I can't I don't know what has become of Dr. Nauman. I think she did pass away though, but um Dr. Laborde actually contacted me on Facebook probably a year ago. And so we've talked a little bit over Facebook. So I've told her how much her class has meant to me, and um we're Facebook friends now.
SPEAKER_01So and um tell us a bit about the community there in Livingston Parish.
SPEAKER_00So we're not um growing up, we were not a very diverse community. Um, and we I would still say that we're not a very diverse in terms of most people in this parish, in this community where I live, are mostly white. Um, and mostly I would say they identify as Christians. Um they tend to be Baptists, Methodists. Um, so very religious community, very conservative. Um in the past few years, it's been leaning very, very not just conservative, but tending to veer towards extremist alt-right, a lot of a small faction of the community. Um but uh small town we all knew each other and we still mostly everyone knows everyone. Uh we've grown a lot since I was a child. Um, but small, small knit, close, what I, you know, I thought we all loved each other and cared about each other, and I have learned, you know, a little things have been a little different in the past few years in this political climate that we find ourselves in. Um, but it's a nice place, I think, to raise a family.
SPEAKER_01In terms of religious denomination, do you count yourself among that sort of majority group, uh Christian Baptist?
SPEAKER_00Um, I grew up, I was born and raised Southern Baptist. Okay. Um, I don't know that I would necessarily say that I am I'm no longer a Southern Baptist. Um I I am a Christian though. I have found myself though not word this carefully. Um I have seen that the people that raise me and the community that raised me to be Southern Baptist and Christian are doing things that I don't necessarily find as to be a Christian value and some of the hate and the rhetoric that has been said. Um, but yeah, I would say, I would say I'm more non-denominational. I I still I'm a Christian, though.
SPEAKER_01Well, we'll we'll come back also a bit to sort of the uh diversity or lack thereof in in Livingston Parish. Um, so what what misconceptions have you found in in your experience that drive particularly in Louisiana, Livingston Parish, what misconceptions have been driving book bans and then we'll extrapolate there nationwide?
SPEAKER_00Um there's a misconception that there is sexually explicit books and pornography in children's sections of libraries, and that is just simply not true. Um I I've never found a school library or a public library that has sexually explicit material in children's sections of libraries. Um, and that's a big misconception um that uh, you know, when I'm speaking about intellectual freedom, people say, Oh, you like porn and you're for porn in the libraries. Um, no, that's not what that means. I don't think that there's also a misconception that if you speak out against censorship and against book banning, that you think that all kids should read all books and it should be a free-for-all. And I don't believe that either. That's a huge misconception. And I don't know that it's um that people actually believe that or if it's more just a talking point that they say to rile people up. But librarians are not porn pushers.
SPEAKER_01Um, and what do you think is driving this idea that uh the libraries are vulnerable to sexually explicit material being made available to uh young children?
SPEAKER_00There's this push in our country to demonize educators, um, public educators and librarians. And, you know, we're all very we're professionals. We went into our fields because we love kids and we want to we love our community. Um but uh there's there are extremist groups who have popped up, or I guess they've always been around through the ages, um, but their their focus right now happens to be on books and book banning, and um, you know, no one's trying to harm kids. There are topics that some people don't want their kids to learn about, and that's their right as a parent, you know. They some people don't want uh their children to read books with uh members with LGBTQ plus characters, um, or some people don't want their children to read books about race, and and that's their right, but they don't have the right to push that on everybody else. And so what we're seeing right now, there's a a real concerted effort to target books by authors or with characters from the LGBTQ plus community and from people of color, and um it's it's indicative of it is about the books and about the reading, but it's also it's a it's a larger issue of um who is in control of our libraries and who is in control of the information. Um, and so librarians are generally in charge of the information that is given and libraries and teachers at schools, and so we're being attacked because people don't want other people exposed to real history. They want to deny. There's a lot of history deniers and a lot of um othering of historically marginalized groups, um, and so it boils down to that. And then the overall thing, you know, there's a push for authoritarianism in our country and to control the the rhetoric and the knowledge.
SPEAKER_01Uh specific to you as a librarian, are you the librarian of a of the public library for Livingston Parish, or is it for a school library?
SPEAKER_00So I am the I'm a school librarian. I'm a middle school librarian, fifth and sixth grade students, and uh, but I um have been, I haven't really had an issue at my school. Um, the issue has been me speaking out for my public library. So I'm not an employee of the public library. Um I'm just I'm the resident. I'm a 47-year resident in my community and that is tired of seeing my public library attacked. I just happen to be a school librarian.
SPEAKER_01And I assume some of the people that you find uh having these views, uh, I'm willing to bet, if not the majority, at least uh a good portion of them, you you know on a very personal level. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. Um I I I it's people that I've a lot of them that I've known my whole life. Um, and then there's some people, a lot of the the the issue in our parish, in my community where we live, um has been brought on by outside extremists, people that do not live and work in my community. Um they've come into my community, albeit they were invited in by local legislators and um elected officials that I do know and have known my whole life. And so I have been surprised that they've wanted to align themselves with these extremists, invite them into our community. Uh, but then you look at it's a it's um it's a way to make a name for themselves politically and uh so that they can be elected to come in and and save us all from these problems that don't exist, which is unfortunate because I do know some of these people, and they weren't like this their whole lives. So it's very upsetting to see this happening.
SPEAKER_01Well, how how much influence have you been able to have just from you as an individual and because of your particular relationship with these people? Whereas they would go, oh well, if Amanda says that's not true, I mean, is that enough to convince some of these folks? Uh, because they know Amanda. And it's like, well, Amanda says she would never allow this type of alleged material to be placed in a school library for middle school children. But you're you're nodding your head, no, that uh just your personal reputation was not enough.
SPEAKER_00That's yeah, yeah, no, it wasn't enough. Just to give an example, in 2021, I was named School Library General Librarian of the Year, which is a national honor. And so my local school board representative was, you know, oh, this is so great, this is so fabulous. What you're doing for the kids and what you're providing in libraries or everything. And then you fast forward to a year later when these uh two particular men uh started targeting me and spreading these false rumors and memes about me. Everyone stood, everyone believes what they see on the on social media these days, which is a travesty. Like people I've known my whole life were believing these lies that these men were saying about me. And my own school board representative, who I've known most of my life, deserted me and left me because she believed it. She then went on to join forces with them. This is someone who was singing my praises. She actually stood up in front of a school board meeting, crying with tears, saying, You're one of the best things that's ever happened to this community. And you fast forward a year or two, she gets elected as Louisiana State Representative, and she filed a bill to imprison librarians for attending an American Library Association conference with two years hard labor in prison. That this is someone who was my school board rep, who was a friend of mine who I taught her child, is now joined forces with these people, and she also believes everything she sees on the internet and everything that these bad actors are whispering in her ear. And so that's just one example.
SPEAKER_01Um the the bill you spoke of, did that bill pass? No.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely not. No, I she it actually it was nicknamed. Um, she filed it and it was nicknamed the Amanda Jones Bill. And I was in the legislative session, um, it did not pass out of committee, and I was sitting right behind her. You can see me, it's so funny. You can see me at the recording, sitting behind her, just shaking my head, like this is ridiculous. Um, for but it didn't even pass out of community uh out of committee. But um, we had to work really hard for that to happen. And this is what I say when I say um what I mean when I say I'm an active accidental activist. Um, I along with dozens of others, we spent hours and hours um to spread the word about this bill and how harmful it was and how ridiculous it was. Um so it didn't pass out of committee. Um and we've been fortunate in Louisiana. Um, I helped found a group called Louisiana Citizens Against Censorship, which is I didn't, it was not just me, it was multiple women actually that founded this organization. And we've worked really hard to to try to combat all of these things that are set on social media that eventually become bad, you know, legislation or attempts at bad legislation. Uh, but we're all fighting against people we grew up with that have known our whole lives that suddenly are believing everything they're seeing on a certain TV program or certain everything they see on social media, which is sad to me.
SPEAKER_01Connecting back to your youth uh as a child or as an adolescent, uh are there any books from back then that you had access to but that you now have seen targeted for censorship, whether in Louisiana or elsewhere? And if so, could you identify a couple?
SPEAKER_00So what's funny, not funny, haha, but funny, strange to me is that um some books that had been around for decades, like The Bluest Eye by Tony Morrison. I mean, I read that as a teenager, and it's been around, I want to say over 50 years, and all of a sudden that's being targeted again. And so the blueest eye by Tony's Morrison, um, another one, The Color Purple, which I remember my high school, um, my high school librarian, Dr. Shirley McDonald, introduced me to the color purple as well as Oprah, because I used to watch Oprah all the time. And Oprah was always talking about the color purple and and Alice Walker. And I I read this, I think they're fantastic books, changed the way I view things, uh, are being targeted again all of a sudden 20, 30, 40 years later. And so um a lot of the newer books that are being targeted now, um, All Boys Aren't Blue by George M. Johnson, those are fairly newer. Flamer by Mike Carrado, fairly new. But again, you've still got books that have been around. A lot of Judy Bloom are resurfacing again and being challenged and banned again. Um, and Judy Bloom, I grew up on Judy Bloom, she's been writing since the 70s. A renewed focus on targeting Judy. So it just it's I it doesn't make sense to me.
SPEAKER_01Huh. Uh out of curiosity, in your library that you have uh responsibility for, are there copies of the Bible, the Quran, uh, and other religious literature?
SPEAKER_00We have um because one of our our curriculum standards in sixth grade social studies is or might be fifth grade, they change them every year, um, is world religion.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So yes, you'll find you'll find books on all world religions in our library. Um, they're not they're generally books that are written for the age group 9, 10, 11, 12, because that's our um student population. Um, but no, we don't shy away from I don't shy away from ordering books of religious backgrounds and information because that's a standard that the students are being taught. They're taught about um, I want to say they're taught about Hindu religion, Buddhism, um, Christianity, uh, all sorts all sorts of religions in sixth grade.
SPEAKER_01But there is a copy of the Bible in the library.
SPEAKER_00Um, I haven't checked recently to see if it was it was lost, but yeah, there should be.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Sometimes we sometimes kids check out books and they lose them, and so we might not have a current copy still on the shelf, but yeah, there should be.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I just find it somewhat ironic considering uh what you're identifying as issues that particular groups have regarding some literature in the library. And I mean it's well known there there are portions of the Bible uh that if one were to take out and place in another text, uh, I'd be certain uh that people would have problems with those uh particular comments. Uh, you know, what you do with a woman, uh, once once you discover your daughter's no longer a virgin, uh, you know, well, what you're supposed to do, take her outside the city walls and stone her to death. Uh so it's kind of interesting that some groups have issues uh with these titles that you've mentioned, uh, but not necessarily what they deem to be the focus of uh the their world, so to say, right? And and that's the driving uh um element behind their push towards addressing, I guess, these books that could influence children inappropriately. But I mean, one could say the same about the Bible itself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you could. And and you know, and that's that's another thing, um, because the Bible, I've read the Bible cover to cover twice, and it's the same thing with the Bible as with uh, you know, a book by Alice Walker. People can pick and choose what they want to be outraged about in the book, but uh the work as a whole um wouldn't fail the Miller test. And so it you know, it would be found in and especially in public libraries where you know literature public libraries is birth to death. Um, so as a school librarian, my books are professionally reviewed as age-relevant for my student population, 9, 10, 11, 12. Whereas a public library, you know, all age ranges, um, but it's the same thing. If you if you were to ban the Bible, it's the same thing as banning uh, you know, Mike Carato's book flamer. It's you pick and choose what you are outraged with at the book, and we can't do that. It's because it you can't deter what's available resources um based on who's in charge politically at the moment. Resources should be available all to all. That doesn't mean I think everything should be a free-for-all, books in the public library or in their their sections. You we generally have children's sections, juvenile, teen, and adult. And so as a professional librarian, we make sure that books are in the correct section in libraries. Um, we just don't pick and choose what what literature you know we're gonna be outraged about at the moment. Uh, we have to cater to everyone. Everyone's a taxpayer, yeah. Whether they're an atheist or they study Islam or Christianity, everyone's a taxpayer and deserves to have resources available.
SPEAKER_01And speaking about your librarian, uh it's actually very good to know that it uh caters towards middle school children. So why don't you walk us through the process for selecting books for the library? And I'm I'll go out on a limb here. I assume this is reflective of how most middle school librarians across the country operate. I'm sure there are nuances and differences, but uh walk us through uh how you go through the process. Is it just up to you, who's involved, so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_00So that's one of the best parts of my job is getting to order books. Like I just love it. And so I I try to share that joy with the kids. So I actually give them catalogs, and so I give all the students catalogs. Um, now they're online, so I don't give them physical catalogs, I give them the links. We actually have a whole lesson on it in the library early on in the school year, and I say, What books do you like? And we have a big discussion. What books do you like? What books have you never tried? What would you like to try? Uh, and I give them catalogs and they go through and they pick out um this year. I gave them three different catalogs, and I said, What books? They had to choose five from each catalog that they would like to see in our library. And so they actually went out and picked all 700 students picked out um 15 books in these catalogs, each one. And so then I took it and I made a document. And I'm like, okay, what is the most popular? What do they want to see? So I have the information from the students because it is their library. Um, and I want them to have a say in what we have what we have. I also ask all the teachers, what do you need to help you with teaching your standards? Um, what books like um I know that we need more books on forces, emotion, and science, and so I I made an effort to order those. So I take all of the input um from students, parents, teachers, what we want to order, what they want to order, and I go through, and we don't have a big budget, so I say$3,000, and people are like, oh, that's a lot. It's really not, it's about 200, 250 books. And so I take the books that the kids and the teachers they want, and I start going through those. And I say, okay, what's age relevant? And so for every I make a huge list of books and uh on the online, and I just start narrowing it down to fit our budget um as to what do the kids want, what can we afford, and what is professionally reviewed. Some of the books in the catalogs that the students picked out were rated, um, not rated, but professionally reviewed for eighth grade and up. So I don't get those because we're fifth and sixth grade. So I only, which is what librarians across the country do. You order for what is professionally reviewed for your age group. So I make sure everything's age appropriate, age-relevant to my students, and just kind of work from there. I go through all of the award winners. I look at um the Coretta Scott King Award, the Caldecott, Newberries. Um, Texas always has really great lists, book lists, the Texas Library Association, Louisiana State Library has a list of books that are nominated every year for our age group. I look at those, I order those, and we just kind of like shuffle things around. But I took classes in in college, and we don't just there's a misconception we just get on Amazon and we just start ordering, and that's not how that works. It's it's a fine, fine process to make sure we have everything as much as we can order for the kids and what they want and to help the teachers at our school.
SPEAKER_01Is the process uh documented? So, for example, if um you were no longer available and someone had to uh fill your shoes, uh, would they know what to do? Is it there a written uh document for this?
SPEAKER_00Yes, we all have we so we um we it's called a collection development policy. So as a school librarian, our school system has a collection development policy that guides what we do, what we can and can't um pretty much how we have our collection, what can we take out, what can we add, things like that. Um, but it's pretty standard. It's pretty standard at all schools, and the public libraries use the same thing, only this they're just larger. And they my collection development policy is geared for school children, whereas theirs would be collection development policy for you know all age ranges. But yeah, it's written out. Um, every librarian has a copy. Our parents can find a copy online, our teachers can find a copy, and our school catalog is online as well, our online catalog. So parents at any time can go and see what we have in our school library.
SPEAKER_01So, from your perspective, tell us uh what's at stake here long term for education and society regarding these book bans.
SPEAKER_00Well, the the book ban is just a part of the attack on a public education and on public libraries. Um, the books are just a part of it. Um what's at stake is knowledge, knowledge and resources, because uh we find what what I found and what all librarians are finding is that it's not just about removing books, they then are trying to defund public libraries as a whole and defund schools for the rise of charter schools. And so we're looking at a mass effort to defund and privatize schools and libraries and what's at stake. Um, should that happen? You know, whoever controls the schools and the libraries and the information controls what is distributed to the public. Um, they control the narrative, they control, you know, we have all of these things that have happened in history that are found in history books. Well, if you control the school curriculum, you get to control who teaches what history is taught. Um, and so there's pushes for things like Prager You, which is inaccurate history, where you're taught the students can be taught that slavery was favorable and not at all horrific. Um you know, you and then people go to find accurate history at the public library, it's not there anymore because it was taken out. And so what's at stake is not just knowledge and history, um, but also when you defund public libraries, you're defunding um a lot of people in my community don't have internet or they don't have access. And um you talk about cities, that's where people go. Uh well, not just cities, and the where where I live, it's very rural. They go to learn, um, there are adults that go to learn um how to get a job. We have law clinics, we have tax clinics, we have knitting, even knitting and learning how to for hobbies, and and there's so libraries are more than just books and resources, they house um uh activities in their community hub. And so that's at stake as well, that community love and learning and and all of that.
SPEAKER_01Um, you had mentioned uh hateful comments that have been directed uh against you. Um but before uh we delve into that, uh let's address one perhaps reaction that, well, you know, censorship uh or attempts at it, it's really nothing new. And individuals such as yourself are actually blowing things out of proportion. You're scaremongers. Uh tell us, you know, it has there been a fundamental uh substantial rise in this type of activity uh to keep books uh of any nature outside of the library?
SPEAKER_00I wish I was being hyperbolic by saying that there's a national attempt to destroy libraries. I I wish. I mean, I oh I wish I was exaggerating, um, because what's happening to our library is gonna affect our libraries and our schools for decades, even if we stop it now. Um, I mean it's not it's happening. I I just in my community um they tried to uh they went it, they tried to defund our library completely through a tax initiative to take away the funding. They have tried to um completely take any LGBTQ plus book that has characters or authors, they wanted to put it in its own section, um and even remove them. They uh they tried to destroy certain databases, uh, not destroy the database itself, but defund it so our library couldn't afford it. There's been complete board takeovers. Um, and this is all across the country. This is, I mean, I can name a school librarian and a public librarian in every single state almost that can tell you this is happening in their states. And it's not just in red states and it's not just in rural communities. I've seen this happening in Chicago, the Bronx, San Diego, where people are taking over library boards of control, they're taking over school boards with the ultimate goal to censor and ban books. And it's not hyperbolic, it's it's actually really happening. And a lot of times people say, Oh, well, it's not really a ban if you can get it from the bookstore or whatever, but it is you know, when you remove accurate uh depictions of history or you remove books that contain marginalized people uh or in their stories um to control the narrative in a school, they say, Oh, well, they can go to the public library and check those out, but they're attacking the public library as well. So no, then they can't go to the public library as well. And people say, Oh, well, they can go to the bookstore. Well, I live in a like over 50 students, like we provide food to students over the weekends to some of our students, or they wouldn't eat. We don't have kids that have bookstore money, and we don't have, you know, that's a very privileged statement. Even I who am comfortably comfortable money-wise, I can't go out and buy all the books that I or that I read myself. Um, and so it's and why should I have to buy every single book um when I pay taxes for a public library?
SPEAKER_01Uh from your perspective, do you find this to be a conservative collective effort? Um and if so, could you identify any particular evidence for that?
SPEAKER_00Yes. This um, you know, it's it's grassroots organizations, I say in quotes, that have started this movement. You look at groups like Moms for Liberty, and there's groups in every state. You know, you have national moms for liberty groups, then you have the satellite. R in Louisiana is not really Moms for Liberty. Um, we have our own different little homegrown extremist group, uh, but you'll see all of those pop up all across the United States. But they all have the same thing in common and that they all communicate with each other. You can go online and watch them on social media, they all communicate. Um, but if you follow the funding sources, um, you generally find that a lot of these extremist groups have the same funding sources as the legislators that are uh um helping prolong and actually um spread this book banning and these anti-library legislation. They all have the same donors, they're all alt-right, um, they all they they have the same speech, the same words, the same, the same book list, the same tactics. And so they are all very unified in that. They all learn from each other. It it all goes back to, you know, Project 2025 is the playbook, and I think it was like page five where they start talking about attacking libraries, and this the playbook is the same in every state wherever you go, and it's the same playbook. Take a book out of a page out of context, post it, rile up the community, get the local legislators, one or two on your side to rile it up. It's the same playbook, the same list. And just as an example for money, um, some group like Mobster Liberty, you can't they don't identify their donors, and a lot of these groups are nonprofits, and they they're dark money nonprofits where you can't see who's donating. Um, but eventually they drop some things and they you find out who's behind it. But um, even in my local area, we have a local pack that is run by people that have been prolonging the book banning and the censorship and the anti-library campaign here. We found out they have received$60,000 from the Koch brothers, even at this local in our small community. We've traced it back. So they all have the same funders and the same playbook.
SPEAKER_01So tell us about some of the harassment uh that you received and when did it start?
SPEAKER_00So I um and and none of the harassment I've received has been as a result of anything I've done at my school. Um, it was speaking out at the public library just as a resident, but um I 2022, July of 2022 was when it first started. It's the when an outside extremist group first started attacking our public libraries, and I went and spoke in July of 2022 against this group, and I gave a speech about how we already had policies and procedures in place at our library, that there was nothing happening, nothing nefarious happening in our library. And four days later, after I initially spoke, uh, two men um started targeting and harassing me through memes on social media saying that I um one was a meme that said I advocate for the teaching of anal sex to 11-year-olds and I have my face on it. And another was a picture of me with a target around my face saying I give pornography and erotica to six-year-olds. We don't even have six-year-olds in my school, but um, so they they started at the same time on the same day, almost to the hour, both of these men started pushing these things, and it rapidly rapidly picked up in the community. And um, I started being called a groomer, a pedophile. I got I've received death threats. Um, and so for the past three and a half years, I still haven't been able to go out in my community without being scared, um, fearful, sometimes having people say things to me that are not the best things to say.
SPEAKER_01Um in your own community, people that have known you for years.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um, one woman told me at a library board meeting that God was gonna wrap a millstone around my neck and drown me in the pits of hell. Um, I've been told I need to read the Bible, which I already, you know, like I already have. Um, you know, lots of you're going to hell in your grimmer. And people, some are strangers that that I just know of from the community because we all tend to know each other even if we don't know each other closely. But some people, yeah, some people I have known my whole life.
SPEAKER_01So do you have children?
SPEAKER_00I do. I have one daughter.
SPEAKER_01Uh has any of this affected your your daughter?
SPEAKER_00Um, she was 15 when this started, and the good thing about my daughter is that she has she was in she's in band, or she was, she graduated high school. Um she was in band, and a lot of the students in band, um I find not to stereotype band kids, but they tend to be very kind and inclusive, um, at least the ones in our community, and so they embraced her and they but also every kid in my community, all of her classmates, they I had them all. Every kid in my community, I taught. Like they all had to come through my school and have me as a school librarian, if not as a classroom teacher at one point, and so all the kids know me and they all generally like me, and so that helped her. Um, I think it had it not been the case, um, I do have friends that are school librarians that have had kids in the school system that have had their kids targeted and harassed. Um, but fortunately, mine has a good set of friends, and she was never bothered.
SPEAKER_01So, how did you navigate uh this onset of harassment and very vulgar harassment, and then even uh the death threat? I mean, I having come from previously a profession of law enforcement and security, uh obviously, you know, I would someone in my role would have thicker skin. This would something obviously very new to you. How did you navigate this? And uh were there things you drew upon from your past, or did you have to come up with a new set of uh sort of tools uh to deal with this?
SPEAKER_00At first I didn't deal with it very well. The first the first week or two that I was being targeted, I I cried. I stayed in my room. Um, I didn't want to leave. Um, I cried, I cried so much that my eyes swelled shut. Like I didn't know that that could happen. Um, I panic attacks and things like that, but I filed police reports. Um, and the at first I filed police reports against the two men, and they said the local law enforcement was like, this is more of a civil matter. There's nothing we can do. So I'm like, there's nothing you can do. They're saying where I live and work and inciting things, uh, but they it's a civil matter. Um, the death threat, I also, the first death threat, um, I also filed a police report. I even handed the sheriff's department a stack of information. I had researched who the person was. I had traced their I, you know, their their internet address, their IP address. I had traced it all and I gave them everything on a silver platter. They're like, well, someone could have taken over their VIN and their IP. And I didn't get much help from from law enforcement, unfortunately. So I did what I the only other thing I knew to do, which was file a lawsuit, um, to get the these two men to leave me alone. And so I filed a defamation lawsuit. And uh it's been three and a half years, and and I've settled with one recently, but one man continues to harass me. He he's he posts my he's posted my address online twice. He has a picture of me on his desk, and he's always doing these weird video things about me, and he has pictures of me on his desk, and and law enforcement doesn't seem to care that I'm being harassed, and or I don't, I don't know, maybe they there's nothing they can do. I don't I try not to think about that too much, um, because otherwise it's upsetting to think that there are people that um I'm also a trusted community member, just like our law enforcement, and uh, but they're not willing to help me. So I'm I'm trying to I don't think about it too much.
SPEAKER_01Well, and and with the first individual that you stated that you settled with, um was there any type of apology or acknowledgement of the negative behavior on the part of this individual?
SPEAKER_00So when I filed the lawsuit back in 2022, when I when I filed these, I mean when I filed these lawsuits, um it was for defamation. And so for three and a half years, these men have perpetuated the myth that the lawsuit is about me trying to put porn in kids' libraries. Um, but I I recently won about a a little over a month ago, I won the last round of our lawsuit, and they were having to pay court costs and things. But from the get-go, all I ever said that I wanted was a dollar and an apology. That's all I'm suing for. And so um this last round when one of the men finally realized he's gonna have to apologize, like he's gonna be found, like it's just pretty cut and dry. Um, he did give an apology. He he he reached out to me and wanted to settle, and I was not gonna take any money um because I will not be bought. I said I reiterated I just want a dollar an apology, and so I don't know how much I'm allowed to talk about the settlement, but um, you know, I I did get my apology and it was on my terms, and I he said what I wanted him to say, and I did receive my dollar, so it's considered closed. I consider it closed with that one person. Um, do I think he really meant it? No, but it was videotaped and the whole community has seen it now, and that's good enough for me.
SPEAKER_01Did the did the lawsuit have to make its way up to the uh state appellate or supreme court at any stage?
SPEAKER_00Okay, yes, yeah, but originally it was dismissed from local court, and so for the fast the past three and a half years, I've just been fighting for the right to have a trial against these men um because it was dismissed. So went all the way up to the Louisiana Supreme Court and went back down to the um First Circuit Court of Appeals, and the Supreme Court and the First Circuit have all ruled in my favor that I deserve to have a right to a trial against these men to bring to hold them accountable. And so that's the stage we're at. We're going back down to local court to and we're about ready to start the trial for the one man that hasn't settled.
SPEAKER_01So what would you define uh to be the ethical obligations of librarians in these sort of uh polarized times?
SPEAKER_00Well, ethically, we are um we are there to provide resources to every member of our community. Every member. Um, we cannot discern what materials we're gonna have based on the majority. I, you know, I said that the majority of our uh residents are Christian and Republican, but all of the books can't be Christian and Republican. We have to, because not everybody is. Um we have to make sure ethically that we're providing resources that reflect um that are accurate, first of all, they're accurate and valid and from sources of information, but also that we are making sure that everyone's represented on the shelves, no matter their socioeconomic status, their gender, their sexual orientation, their religion, their political affiliation. We are there to provide resources for everyone. Now it is a little different. I am in a school, and so that does not mean every resource for is a free-for-all. Again, because I'm at a school, I'm ethically bound to make sure that what I'm providing is only professionally reviewed for the age group of my kids of my students.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Um what values have anchored you during this time?
SPEAKER_00Um, ironically or unironically, um, my Christian values have anchored me. And but they will tell you that I'm some like godless heathen. I'm the godless heathen, I'm the Marxist, I'm the atheist, I'm the my favorite quote was Amanda Jones has joined the radical leftists to burn common sense and morals on the altar of wokeism. That was my favorite quote about me. Um, but my Christianity and the and and I will say my Republican upbringing to defend the Constitution from people outside and within has been some something that has grounded me.
SPEAKER_01Are you a registered Republican? Yes. The irony goes even deeper. Um, have have you encountered support from uh the same religious community, whether it's uh from uh followers uh or to deacons, ministers?
SPEAKER_00Um it's kind of it it's uh 50-50. Um there are people that were deacons at my church growing up that um are still deacons at different churches here in the area who have uh talked very horribly about me. Um, you know, and then you know, prolonging this rumor that I give pornography to children. Um and then there are people that I grew up with that were like my Sunday school teachers and um people that are in my mom's Sunday school class and that have reached out to me, wonderful Christians who have reached out to me and said this is not right. And so it's about 50-50 in my community.
SPEAKER_01So expanding beyond the ethical obligations of librarians, uh what what message would you like to communicate to say uh civic leaders, whether they're serving on a school board, they're a state-level representative, or a US Congress uh person. Uh what do you want them to learn from your experience down at the ground level?
SPEAKER_00Well, right now, our civic leaders are in Louisiana are a very majority alt-right. Um, not just Republican. They're like they've gone way far, alt-right extremist. And what I would like to hammer on to them is that libraries don't just reflect who's in charge because the pendulum will switch, will switch, shift one day, will swing back. Um you know, it's constantly swinging who's in charge, Republican, Democrat, Republican, Democrat. And we can't shift our libraries based on who's in charge because people in our communities are from all walks of life, and so a lot of our alt-right legislators, particularly my local senator and representative here in my community, or state senator and state representative, are very much um uh anti-trans right now.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, and they're very anti-trans, they're very ugly and say horrible, horrific things about trans people. And they don't think that that books that have trans characters should be in our libraries. Um, and and I hate to tell them, but we have trans people that live in our community and they represent them as well. And so those people also deserve to have resources available to them in the public library.
SPEAKER_01Where do you think the failures are occurring? And let me let me let me expand upon that. Uh, I mean, these people that you've grown up with uh or that you've known uh from a distance, and now there's this been uh shift in current, so to say. What do you think is driving all this?
SPEAKER_00I've tried to I've thought about that for for quite some time. Um, I think a lot of what is driving it right now is social media and the rise in misinformation and disinformation, and how easy it is to put misinformation out there and create hysteria in order to have it go viral things go viral and misinformation spreads. Um I think something that is sorely lacking right now in our country is um common sense as far as believing what you see, everything you see on social media and on news outlets. People think that because something is on the television, on the news, that it's oh, well, there it's on the news, it must be true. Um, oh, it's on my friend posted this meme on Facebook, and they're a good person, so this must be true. And so I think um, you know, what we're seeing now is in terms of censorship uh efforts of book banning is very different from what happened in the 1980s, which was the last really big um push that we had. What's different now is the social media. Uh, and you look at we started seeing this rise in 2021, 2020. You think about COVID. We were all in our homes, we were not going places, we were quarantined a lot of us for a long time. That's when you saw the rise of Moms for Liberty, and they were very much against masks and and vaccines, and then you know, that is kind of they've switched gears, and now it's books, and so you're seeing a lot of misinformation and disinformation being uh pushed on social media, and people believe the outrageous, unfortunately. Um, I people I and I don't I think that's a failing of our country, like and I hate to say it, but what I see just in my community, it's people that are 60 and older that are the worst offenders and retweeting and re-sharing these false memes and things. And then people that are coming to our library to say there's porn in it tend to be a lot older. And you look at what are they watching, they all have something in common and they all watch Fox News.
SPEAKER_01Um the political leadership, the civic leadership for your particular area, Livingston Parish, uh, from there the down the to the municipal school level all the way up to uh U.S. Congress. So how would you connect with these individuals? How do you bridge that divide? And and also, you know, the temptation for an individual such as yourself is I can't talk to these people. They're they're not willing to listen to me. Uh, but obviously uh there is a need to still try to connect uh because the issue goes beyond them willing to listen to you. It's the impact on you know what information is available out there uh for the next generation, whether we agree with the information or not. Um so how do you connect with these individuals? How do you still try to uh create that bridge?
SPEAKER_00I've tried to have one-on-one conversations with some of these elected officials, and some have been willing to listen. Um, but I find that even the ones that are willing to listen, they aren't really listening. Um, so locally, to get them to listen, they won't listen to just me. Um, it takes collective power. And so I have founded a local public library alliance that hundreds of community members have joined. So they won't, they might not listen to me, Amanda Jones, the one person, but they'll listen to us collectively. So we run email campaigns and and letters so that to help other people in our community um message and and and reach our legislators and our local leaders. Um, it doesn't always work. Um, but I will say that some can't be reached. I mean, my senator is always posting about chemtrails and how the government's causing hurricanes and stuff. So like I can't reach her. Let's be honest, I'm not gonna be able to reach her. Um, but in the Louisiana legislature, you've got your far right, and you got your you know, your left, but there's a lot of people in the middle that can be reached. And they and we just have to call them and talk to them. I've spoken to several, and I don't want to name the legislators, but who have said, oh, you're right. And so one-on-one conversations are key these days, but you can't have a one-on-one conversation with every single leader, whether it's at the local or the higher level. And some of them are getting paid, are you know, with these extremists, they're being their campaign finances are, you know, they have the same donors, so they're not gonna go against these extremist groups, they're just not.
SPEAKER_01A tool that I I reference in my particular life, personally and professionally, is to take things to the logical extreme. Uh and in this case, and also directed towards people that are for these bands, these censorship activities that that are just deftly opposed to uh you and your cohort, so to say, across the nation. Um so taking it to the extreme, you know. What would you say to them that they should be concerned about if they if they were to be able, if they were successful on all fronts? Uh what would you want them to know? Hey, FYI, my friend, this is what you're gonna be facing down the road.
SPEAKER_00Well, what I want them to know, first of all, you know, why would like why would all librarians, if you're thinking logically, they say that all librarians are, you know, groomers. Why would like why? That doesn't even make sense. Just the very notion that there's this like horde of middle-aged women, because we tend to mostly be middle-aged women, that are in our field, like like we're just all we joined, I became a librarian, so I could put porn in libraries, like that doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_01Well, there is a rise in witchcraft. I think you've seen that when we recently reported in the news. So maybe, maybe they're worried about that.
SPEAKER_00It's those Harry Potter books, you know. Um, but like why why would first of all, every almost every kid these days has a phone in their hands. If they want to look at pornography, even my six-year-old nephew can pull up a phone and put XXX in, and even circum he can circumvent parental controls. So this notion that people are going to libraries, these kids are going to libraries and they're gonna go down the shelves and they're gonna find this one book and take this book and zip through it and try to find that one page that they object to, and it's gonna completely change children. And like that's not happening. That's not happening. And realistically, why would a kid do that when they have phones in their hands? Um, but what's gonna happen is that because they're attacking librarians and educators, there's gonna be no more, like people are not gonna go into this profession, and we're not gonna have librarians, and we're not gonna have educators. And but what else they're what else they're also doing by labeling educators and librarians groomers, because that is the thing that is happening. That you're a groomer, you're a librarian, you're a groomer. There are actual groomers out there, and you're watering down that word groomer. As an educator of 25 years, I have had children that are have been groomed, that have been sexually assaulted, molested, and that comes generally from family members or clergy in my area, and no one seems to care about that. Um, and so when you take away books, we have a very high foster care rate where I live, a very high opioid. We have an opioid crisis where I live. Um, and you take away resources from people that can pull themselves, you know, find help and and and pull themselves out of poverty and find jobs and these books and these resources that are gonna help them as people, and you want to destroy them, you're trying to destroy your own community because you should want everybody in your community to thrive and flourish. Because when everybody thrives and flourishes, the whole community thrives and flourishes.
SPEAKER_01Um what pressures are teachers and librarians facing today that the public doesn't see?
SPEAKER_00There's so much paperwork now. It's like paperwork, paperwork, paperwork that they don't see. But also, what they don't see is that the pressure is we're humans and we're gonna make mistakes. We're educators and librarians are not perfect, we're gonna make mistakes, but even perceived mistakes, even when we don't make a mistake, because of social media, a child can go home and say, Miss So-and-so was mean to me and did this, and the next thing you know, that parent has posted on Facebook and riled everyone in the community up for something that might not have even happened. So the pre this pressure to be perfect, and and and even knowing that you've done everything right and that you're not even doing anything wrong and you can still be targeted and harassed is a huge weight on all of our shoulders.
SPEAKER_01What keeps you motivated?
SPEAKER_00Oh, the kids. I love the kids.
SPEAKER_01And well, for the audience, if you can't pick up on it, she's smiling from ear to ear.
SPEAKER_00The kids aren't the problem. Kids are never the problem.
SPEAKER_01Um, what actionable steps uh do you think communities can take to support libraries without escalating conflict? And let's let's nuance this specific to your community because it sounds like uh you're against the tide, you're against the current. Um how what productive steps have you taken?
SPEAKER_00Um well, it can start as small as just going to get your library card if you don't have one or renewing it. It can be as small as downloading the apps, the the ebooks and the audiobooks, going into the library, checking out the books. That helps the public library statistics. So when all of this talk of funding comes around, libraries can show our libraries are being utilized by the community. Um, in fact, of the 140-ish people we have in our community, 102,000 have library cards. That's huge, you know, and so you have to use it. You also have to vote, you also have to pay attention because a lot of our community doesn't even realize there are attacks on the libraries because they don't want they don't follow. So you need to pay attention to your library board of control meetings, your agendas, the post-it meetings on school boards and things like that. You have to vote. You can go a step further when you see a petition or an email that someone like myself who has founded some alliance or a nonprofit, we're trying to get the word out. Join those, sign it. It does make a difference. When we had nine anti-library bills in the Louisiana legislature two years ago, um, Louisiana Citizens Against Censorship, we put out an email campaign and sent in 44,000 emails collectively, which is what the legislators themselves said in the hearings. Well, we're not going to vote for this bill because we've got so many tens of thousands of emails against it. So we all have power, we just have to learn how to harness it. Now, if they want to go even farther and found a library alliance and do that, you can, but just paying attention and attending and spreading the word and stopping false information. If you see something outrageous about a librarian, which is something I wish it had been done to me, because I dozens of people I grew up with, they've never commented on it. People I've been friends with my whole life that live here have never commented on it. And I publicly they've said to me this is horrible. And I'm like, Well, you should write that on social media instead of sharing that recipe, why don't you share that managelza never do this? So you have the power to stop disinformation and spread the truth yourself.
SPEAKER_01Well, let me ask you, why do you think people that you know who are willing to tell you in private, oh, that's horrible what was said about you, or what was posted, why won't they do it publicly? I mean, it's it's it's one thing, okay. I don't agree with Miss Jones, the librarian, for letting this particular book in to describing her as someone who's promoting anal sex of 11-year-olds.
SPEAKER_00Because the one or two that did defend me from the beginning, they also were targeted and harassed. And so I was the example set. So the extremist group that has came into my community that is trying to destroy the library, they made me an example. And so they did such a hardcore press on my trying to ruin my reputation that it effectively worked because no one else wanted theirs ruined as well. And I don't begrudge anybody that it is a little hurtful. Um, because I know that I would have defended them. I try not to think about that as well. Um, but a lot of my friends are educators, or they don't want to be harassed themselves, and I get that. They all have families and children themselves, and so they don't want to be targeted, they don't want to become the cautionary tale of Amanda Jones by helping me.
SPEAKER_01But it's kind of funny that the shameful behavior that should be criticized is actually being allowed to perpetuate, and it's going to, you know, it's the one that stands out, Vice. What is the more noble behavior?
SPEAKER_00Um which is something I like to tell people that we have to advocate with empathy because the people that are advocating for censorship are doing such a horrible job of, or well, they're doing a great job of teaching horrible ways to act to children. Um, these this notion of we have to protect the children is something that we all want to do. But these people that are targeting and harassing librarians and educators are being so harmful to their own their children's teachers and librarians, they're setting an example of bullying, and that's what we don't want to teach our children. So I just find it very ironic that the people pushing book bans are doing it in such a horrific way, um, and and targeting and harassing people. Whereas I've never seen a librarian or a person like myself defending intellectual freedom use those same tactics, not once.
SPEAKER_01Hmm. Um, what reforms do you think would make a meaningful difference and where should those reforms take place?
SPEAKER_00The fights are so local. So I even though there's censorship attempts and it's happening across the nation, each fight is so local because libraries and schools are locally controlled. Um, we do need, I think, federal laws to protect libraries. Um you look at um our president issued an executive order to uh defund the Institute of Museum and Library Services back in like February. Um it just this past week got stopped in federal court, and all of the Institute of Museum and Library Services got their money back. Um, but we need something on the national level. We have states like New Jersey, um, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, that are Minnesota that are signing anti-book banning laws and laws to protect librarians and educators in certain states. We need that nationwide, um, something to protect us.
SPEAKER_01Uh, in terms of protection, uh, let's talk about the the particular threat, but let's start with the harassment. Well, Miss Jones, you're you're just overly sensitive. You can just ignore that, okay? Um tell us about how it's impacted you, uh, your loved ones. I mean, you mentioned uh a couple of weeks there that, you know, crying so intensely, your eyes shut. But again, you know, let uh what do you want the audience to hear? What do you want others to know about uh what harassment uh can actually do to an individual and the influence it can have on the people connected to that individual?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a lot of people have said, oh, you should have a thicker skin, you just get off the internet. Well, you can't, I mean, yeah, I guess I could get off the internet, but it's not just on the internet. Um, these people, these extremists that post these horrible things about me have riled up people in my community who don't just post on the internet, they contact my employers with these lies. So my employers have been bombarded with these lies that I give pornography to children, and you know, they're they have to investigate. Um, even though they know it's not true, they have to investigate, and so it's like wasting time um for you know my my school system. Um, but you can't escape it when it's online, not when everyone you know is taking screenshots and texting you, hey, did you know this was being said, or did you know that? And then they start texting and they start. My sisters and my parents have had people go on their social media, have gone, have approached them. Um, your sister's a pedophile, she's a groomer. Like my grandmother passed away last year, but even my grandmother, who was 97, was getting messages um from people. Your granddaughter is a pedophile and a groomer, and I was able because she's 97. I was able to go in her iPad and delete a lot of those before she saw them, but uh you know, it affects where I work. People have sent messages to work, it now affects every parent of every child I teach, which is 700 children. So I've got parents that have caught that believe these things. Um, it affects the way I work, and that weighs heavily on you. Um, I had to take a medical leave of work because of panic attacks. I never knew when the next attack was gonna come, when someone I was just gonna be, you know, out trying to get a happy meal McDonald's for my kid, and someone's gonna say, you know, you're the devil, and then I have to worry about my food being spit in. And and so um I lost I've lost large quantities of hair, I've lost weight, I panic attacks, debilitating. Um, I ended up in the hospital with health complications in and out for like two months, um, anemic because I was there's becomes a PTSD stress factor where you won't eat, and so I had severe anemia because of it. I've had to get blood donated. I mean, I you know, like it's it's horrific, and just the mental is horrific enough, but the physical ailments, and then it affects everybody in my home. My parents live next door, it affects my parents, it affects my siblings who live in my community, my nieces and nephews who live in my community, my friends. I have friends who cry all the time about what has happened to me. So it affects not just me, it affects everybody. And even in my school, you know, my death threat said that I know where you live and work, you beepity beep. And so now they're talking about coming to kill me at where I work, and I work around children. I work with children, and so now that's a whole new level of stress. Like, is someone gonna harm a child trying to get at me? And would I ever be able to forgive myself, even though it wouldn't have been my fault? You know, and so this this is always heavily on me. And then knowing that this is not just me, this is happening to hundreds, if not thousands, of librarians. Across the country into other educators. It's a huge, a huge something that it's hard to deal with.
SPEAKER_01At the risk of overstepping, and feel free to push back. I assume this has caused difficulties even uh within your own family. Uh you mentioned your parents and your sisters, and I'm willing to bet at least someone has come back and said, Amanda, just don't don't get involved. And you know, but you've remained involved, you've remained active. Um how do you come to that choice?
SPEAKER_00Well, to me it's not a choice. Um, it's it's just, I mean, it's I have to do, I have to push back. Um, because you look at I mentioned earlier, I'm the I'm the school librarian in my community. So every child in my community will have me as a school librarian, which really makes the the people angry that they don't like me. But every child in my community will have me for two years. And then I I think about how I don't have a choice because there are things like uh the human rights coalition did a study in 2023 that um and they they interviewed so many students, and so many kids are scared to go to school and they're afraid to go to school for various factors, um, bullying being one of the main ones. And you look at how every kid in that study said, or not every kid, but nine out of ten kids said they felt safe in the school library. And to me, that's a huge responsibility that I want to offer someplace in our school where every kid, at least for two years, can feel love, accepted, and seen and heard and safe. And to me, that's not a choice, that's a responsibility that I have because I chose to be in this line of work. And I am a resident of my community and I love my community, and so I will go to bat for my community as well for the public library, because again, every person in my community deserves to feel seen, heard, safe, and represented and able to access the resources in our public library, and that's a huge responsibility for me. And I, yes, my parents have said to me, you know, if you would stop talking about it, maybe that it would ease up or whatever. And I that's cowardice. I mean, you don't quit when just because the going gets tough. That's not how they raise me. They raised me to be to protect the first amendment at all costs, as a republic in a Republican household, and as in a Christian household, to love thy neighbor as thyself and to champion the underdog. And so now they know we don't, I don't see eye to eye with my parents, even though they live next door to me and they don't understand it. Um, but I am the daughter that they raised and I'm doing what they raised me to do, and so that's on them if they don't agree.
SPEAKER_01Have you ever been accused of being selfish that you're not thinking about how what you're doing affects others negatively, whether it's friends, family, co-workers?
SPEAKER_00No, not once. Not once. Now, my daughter will say, My daughter, I have been traveling a lot through with being author of a book. I've been on a book tour, yes, and my daughter has said, Mom, I'll be home a little more. So that I feel has been a little selfish. But also, my daughter is now about to be 19, so I'm not leaving home a newborn.
SPEAKER_01Um, what leadership lessons or effective decision-making strategies have you learned during this time that you think uh others should hear to apply within their own lives?
SPEAKER_00I've learned to listen more. Um, I've always sort of been um the person that was, I don't want to say a leader, but I took charge of things. Um, but I've really learned to sit back and listen lately. Um, I I did mention that I am the founder of a uh public library alliance, and it is built up, and there are there are hundreds of us, but there is a core group of a little over a dozen of us that's in a group message, and we we all listen to each other and we all collectively balance each other out. Some of us might be more extreme than others, and some of us have ideas that the others don't like, and we all listen to each other and decide on things as a group. And so, even though I am a scene as the leader, I have learned to listen to everyone in the group and listen, everybody has opinions, has have value.
SPEAKER_01Are you worried that one day, whether it's you or another librarian, uh, will be hurt, uh, will be violently assaulted?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I I mean I've had friends who've had their tires slashed. Um, I've had friends who've been one friend that was followed home by Proud Boys from school. Um, and I live in constant fear that these people that harass and target me in my own community um are gonna incite. I don't know, necessarily think the men, the two men themselves that started this are gonna come after me, but I feel like they're gonna incite someone. Um, because I see a lot of rhetoric that's put in our community pages that is very extreme, like really, really like even extreme for the extremists. And I I worry that they're going to come and harm me or hurt me because of it. And so I live in fear of that.
SPEAKER_01What what drives you forward? What's what what what gives I don't want to use the word hope. I I had that in in my preparatory notes that I I've shared with you. Um hope. Um sometimes I find it's just the opposite of fear, uh, and hope is not a plan, so to say. Um what what motivates you to move forward other than the the kids? You identify them, and obviously it seems to be about 99% of the drive, but what's the other one percent?
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, I think that when you love someone or something, you want it to be the best you can be. And there's this slogan out there that we have to make America great again. And I will argue that we've always had things that have not made us so great along the way, but particularly what I'm seeing right now is not making us so great, but because I do love my country, I want us to be great, and I think that um I get accused of hating my country for loving libraries, and I I would say it's the exact opposite. I do love our country, but when you love something, you acknowledge that it's not perfect, and so you want I want our country to be the best it can be, and so to in order for it to be the best, we have to acknowledge that there are things we are doing that are not great, and so if we want to become great, we have to listen to all voices and and follow the the our roadmap, which is the constitution, and um, I think we we have the possibility to get there, and that's that's my drive is that I want to make a better world, a better country for my daughter, for the thousands of kids that I've taught, but also for my community, because I want our community to be great as well.
SPEAKER_01And how would you want listeners uh to support librarians and access your ongoing work?
SPEAKER_00Um, I would say follow what the American Library Association and the group Pen America, and there's a group called Every Library, um, the National Council of Teachers of English, the National Coalition Against Censorship. Follow what all of these um larger organizations are doing and take notes from them as to what you can do in your smaller communities, but just pay attention, pay attention and don't be apathetic in our in our own communities.
SPEAKER_01Do you find uh there are similar uh movements occurring in other countries? And are you in touch with other librarians uh and abroad?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I actually this past summer I went and spoke at Paris to the French Librarian Association, and they are seeing it. Um they said uh from what the librarians uh spoke to several hundred librarians in Paris, um, and they said that the the United States, whatever happens over here, generally follows over there within a year or two. And so they're starting to see a rise in censorship in um in France. And then I also uh recently went and spoke at Oxford University, and I spoke to uh a lot of librarians, people at the Historical Society of Literature over in the UK, and I'll be going back this coming summer to speak, um, is spread over there as well. Um, there is a rising faction um in their countries of extremists that are also starting to target their libraries.
SPEAKER_01Um stepping back, because sometimes we can get hyper-focused even over a 10, 20 year time span. Uh do you see that these occurrences have occurred in the past?
SPEAKER_00Um, the censorship, the movements for censorship. Um, oh yeah. Um I can go all the way back. Uh, you know, I'll start just with McCarthyism. I don't even go that far back. Well now we'll start we'll start back with the World War II, uh the you know, the rise of Nazi Germany and World War I and World War II. You saw um, you know, over in Europe an attempt to control attempt to control um literature, schools and libraries, uh McCarthyism, uh, but the what I'm more familiar with is in the 80s, uh, you know, and it's all cyclical, it comes in ebbs and flows. Um, we saw a rise in, you know, there was like satanic panic in the 80s, and that kind of bled over into what are we reading and what are we doing? And um, I saw it again in my early the early stages of education with Harry Potter books and witchcraft and wizardry and all that. Um, and so it's just it ebbs and flows. But what I'm seeing right now, though, is so far and above anything that I've ever witnessed in my 47 years. I mean, I don't know how it compares now to you know McCarthyism, and but it's it's um it's not only are people trying to destroy libraries and and schools, but the very educators and librarians themselves, I've never seen that happen before. Like it's not enough to we want to ban this book, we want to ban this book, and that librarian spoke about it, so we want to completely destroy her life as well. Um, I've never seen that before.
SPEAKER_01So circling back to how we opened up, um right now, what are you reading?
SPEAKER_00Oh let me think. I just I just downloaded a book and it was not I'm trying to remember, it's called uh it's not John Wayne and G's. It's it's a it's a book about politics. Um, but I did uh I I did just uh recently purchase at the airport the latest Nicholas Sparks book, which I don't even know the title of it, but I started reading it, Nicholas Sparks. But um I I have on my desk that I'm excited to read is um a sequel. It's called Coach, and it's a sequel in the Ghost series by Jason Reynolds, who is a um one of the most genius authors of our time. So I'm ready to read the the like fifth book in his series. It's called Coach. I'm really excited. I'm I'm I'm hoping to start that today.
SPEAKER_01Well, Miss Jones, thank you for your time, uh for sharing your insights as well as for your service uh as an educator and as a librarian, uh, and also for your activism. A special thanks to all the librarians and educators out there. To our listeners, thank you for joining us on Brungart Law's Lanya, where we provide a little extra perspective because the devil's always in the details. Please join us again next week and invite others to follow along. Also, please give us your feedback and suggestions via the link. Ms. Jones, again, gratitude.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me.