From Opera Stage to Union Negotiator: A Conversation with Joshua Hong

Today’s guest is Mr. Joshua Hong. He is the regional director at the American Guild of Musical Artists (AGMA), a national labor union of 7,000 singers, dancers, and staging staff in the United States. As an opera singer, Mr. Hong has performed with Opera Pacific, Washington National Opera, and Wolf Trap Opera. Our conversation explores the interplay between the interests of the performing artists and the organizations employing them.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Delight them. The hunch fumbles across the hull. And the current list. The orchestra begins to play, and dancers enter the stage, blinding gracefully across the hole. And the common fumbles, these artists will narrow the table through methodically rehearsed movement and music to the delight of the audience. With intellectual stimulation through live interpretation, continuing a tradition and old as civilization. They are more than artists furthering counter dance to hunger performance and umbrella. They are also the workers performing the backbone of an industry generating billions of dollars in revenue. How are their rights and interest elements with the demands upon the organizations employing them? Welcome to Bringham Lum's Lenin, where we provide a little extra perspective through conversations. I'm Maurice Bringer, your host. The more we learn, the more likely we can become better versions of ourselves, guide others towards the same, and perhaps have a little fun along the way. Today's guest is Mr. Joshua Hong. He is the regional director at the American Guild of Musical Artists, Agma. Agma is a national labor union of 7,000 singers, dancers, and staging staff in the United States. As an opera singer, Mr. Hong has performed with Opera Pacific, Washington National Opera, and Wolf Trap Opera. Welcome to the program, Mr. Hong.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Thank you, Maurice. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Well, it's again a pleasure and a privilege for me and for the audience. Go ahead and talk to us a little bit about Agma. Tell us what Agma is, you know, what it does, how long it's been around.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yes, so Agma, as you said, is the American Guild of Musical Artists, and it's been around for a while. It started in the 30s. And initially it included composers, soloists, and it included some notable musicians and arts workers who wanted to get together to advocate for artists in the industry so they could have stronger contracts that were more fair to the profession. And it evolved from there over time. Now, as you have stated, that ACMA now has about 7,000 artists who are members. And these are exciting times for ACMA. And it represents a community of artists who come together to advocate for their own individual community in their workplace, or as a national community seeking improvements in the industry.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Well, we've spoken a bit about the membership that it's grown to about 7,000 in size. And I introduced you as the regional director. I take it there are other regional directors. If you could explain to us how the responsibilities are broken up among AGMA.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Sure. Before, we have recently gone through some staff restructuring. Before we used to have a team of two people who would cover certain areas of companies, maybe 12, 13, maybe 14 companies. We have moved from there to each regional director covering slightly fewer companies. We right now have about 10 regional directors, councils, or assistant regional directors who each cover their respective regions. I personally cover Philadelphia, down the coast, down to Florida, and then over to New Orleans. There are a couple companies that I cover that are out of the area. I do have a company in Colorado right now that I'm transitioning out of, and one also in Boston that I helped organize, which has been very exciting. But usually we have more coaching areas that we cover, and the uh regional directors will be wraparound unionists who can negotiate or file grievance and arbitration if necessary and support the artists in their day in and day out work at their workplace.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Well, let's take a step down memory lane for a moment, uh, considering that you also are an artist, and uh that's what you did previously before representing them. Uh tell us how you got into uh this field. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

So I don't think I quite understood what a union was when I first entered the industry.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Um let me let me interrupt you for a moment. I mean, let's go down memory lane. How how'd you end up in in the arts? Uh where when did that interest start?

SPEAKER_00 4:56

I guess that's accentual as well. Um the interest started mostly in high school, um, in high school choirs. Um and I really enjoyed being in choirs. Um, bit of a side note. I was a bit of a troubled child um when I was in high school, but I always enjoyed choir. And I hadn't realized how much impact that was making to me. Um and that enjoyment, that working with um your fellow students, um, creating music, creating beauty. And I remember when I finally got to college, um the college that I went to uh offered free lessons to music majors for a certain number of years. So I thought, hey, I can give this a try. And after a few years, I'll drop this. This is a liberal arts college, and I'll just focus on other things that I want to do. However, when I dropped the music major, um, I realized I really want to do this a little more. So then I told myself, hey, why don't I go pursue a graduate degree in vocal performance, and then I'll go into other fields. Um one thing after another, I stayed in the industry post-graduate school for about 15-20 years, um, and it just had me hooked. Um, and that sense of creating narrative, creating beauty on stage, um, that's and that's what drew me to the arts.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

And during that time, um did you find a need for union representation as an artist?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Oh, you mean post-school?

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Uh yeah, so you're now a performer. Um, you know, you're singing. And did the idea of having a union representative or having be belonging to a union occur to you or not at all?

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Not initially. Okay. Um, however, I do remember going through a young artist program, and a lot of singers go through what we call young artist programs. Um, I suppose one could call it similar to um internships or training programs um across the country. And I remember going to the young artists program with specific job expectations, and I remember putting hours in, and the scope of the work expanded while I was there, and it kept expanding. And I didn't mind doing it initially because um I enjoyed doing what I was doing. Um, and however, when I looked back at the experience that I had um and crunched the numbers, of course, we all have to make a living, I realized that I was compensated for about a dollar for each hour that I put in for that organization. And that was a bit of a wake-up call. And subsequent to that, I remember being invited to um union negotiations at Wanchon National Opera. Um, and I did not know what I was getting myself into. And my um the staff predecessors, a couple predecessors ago, told me, why don't you come? Just sit and observe. You don't have to know what you're doing, just be there. And when I set in, the conversations were very illuminating for me. And recognizing and understanding what was happening behind the scenes, I wanted to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Can you re recollect any particular examples from these uh conversations that you found illuminating?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Oh, yes. Um often when artists enter a work um place, workplace and has a specific experience, um I think there can be a misconception that some of the operational models or certain benefits that they enjoy is just there by the virtue of that workplace. Um but in that first negotiation that I was participating in, I learned that uh often the artists really had to fight for what they wanted or what they needed at sometimes. And that made a big difference. That all the gains that you may see in the industry that benefits the artists, like that that benefit the artists, sometimes it's not there by the virtue of just being there. The artists have to fight for that.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

And recognizing that I think made a difference to me.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Uh naive or perhaps uh ignorant of what their rights and their uh interest or how they can best protect their interest uh when they are performing.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

I think it depends, but not necessarily. Um I was aware, and many artists who enter the industry um are aware that the industry is very difficult. Um, however, I don't think artists always realize that they have a say in how they impact the workplace or the industry.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Um I like how you express that. They don't realize they have a say. Uh so compared to say other professions, right? You know, whether you're a doctor, an engineer, whatnot, you kind of have an idea what the environment should be like and perhaps what the pay is about. Uh, but do you think that is sort of the same in the world of performing arts or not so much so? And people basically learn through trial and error uh that, oh, they could actually have been treated uh better or paid better. Uh would that be a fair statement to make?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

I think it it depends on the artists. I know some artists who come from union families and are very aware of these employer-employee dynamics. Um, I will say, in my personal experience, I had to learn that through trial and error. Um, and seeing the union at work and recognizing that, hey, when the artists come together and advocate for an issue that they deeply care about, that makes a difference. And I think one thing that I want to point out is often when it comes to employer-employee dynamic, even if you somehow end up with a benevolent employer, there is a power imbalance that is really difficult to overcome. And in the performing arts where the job security feels so scarce, often you are going a production to production or a contract-to-contract, um, being able to come together with your fellow colleagues and to be able to discuss what issues are important to us and what can we advocate for. I think that is an important opportunity for communication with the employer.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Um, I have a quick question here, so we'll deviate slightly from our path. And again, I'm I'm remembering as we were talking and you discussed uh being in college and uh studying this and kind of got hooked. Uh where I went to school uh for college, Loyola University in New Orleans, they have a school of music. And I remember seeing you know other kids there and they had either their instruments or they were singers. Umit schools uh that have dedicated departments or schools of music to offer perhaps, even if it's just a uh basic uh one-semester course, an introduction into rights and means to protect your interest in the performing arts. Uh, or is this already happening uh at the uh post-secondary institute?

SPEAKER_00 13:49

I think it does happen in some places, but not in a structured way. Um I know uh some of my mentors in grad school who were clear about some of the challenges in the industry, but often the schools, in my experience, um, have tended to focus on how to develop your artistic skills, which is important, but it does not always address um the workers' rights. Um and I have been fortunate enough to be contacted by some of the um the teachers or professors in some universities who wanted to impart the knowledge to the students. So ACMA has done some seminars, not just me, but other regional directors as well, um in educational settings to explain to the artists that, hey, these are your rights, these are the benefits of the union. Um, but I do think it, I don't think it happens enough, and I do think it would be beneficial because I do think in these programs, um aside from honing someone's artistic skills, it would be really beneficial to think about how are we creating a pipeline towards the industry and what will the working conditions be for these students who will enter industry.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Okay. Uh now bring us back to our sort of chartered course here. And as you kind of got roped into attending uh some of these meetings, and now you're being exposed to the conversations and the discussions, uh, when did it start hitting home for you that you know this this side of the business uh was of interest to you?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Oh, I think every step of the way, I um I don't think it was an imposter syndrome. I always felt that, hey, like I don't know whether what I have to contribute is valuable. Um so similar to first joining that negotiation committee where the ACMA staff then asked me, hey, just sit in. You don't have to know what you're doing, just sit in. Um after that, I have had experiences where I was um asked by fellow members to consider running for what we call um an area committee. And my initial response was, I'm not sure I know what I'm doing. And I had colleagues who had been in the committee prior who shared that it'll it'll be important for you to show up. So then I joined the area committee. Then in that committee, there was a vacancy for the area chair. And once again, when I was approached, I said, I don't think I know what I'm doing. And I was told, hey, maybe you can occupy the seat for a year, and then we'll try to find someone um, you know, within our membership to really take the and to really take the leadership um in this area committee. And while I was there in the capacity of the area chair, COVID happened. And when COVID happened, um as you know, everything closed. And all the performing arts venues closed, and overnight, over a very short period of time, um the livelihood of a lot of the AGMA members just disappeared. Um, and that put AGMA into a position of um working with our employers to figure out where do we go from here. Um, a part of the process included entering into impact bargaining um with um Washington National Opera, for example, um, regarding the remaining contracts, the outstanding contracts. And um my predecessor, um Allison Back, who was also the former chair of the FMCS under the Obama administration, worked with me over many, many months to work with the company to find a solution where artists were getting something while there's consideration for lack of ticket revenue because everything has shut down for the companies. And in that process, I believe she saw something in me. Um, and through that experience, I also learned, hey, this is something I can do and I'm kind of good at. And she later approached me about working for the union as a staff member. Um, I will admit my initial response was to say no or to laugh it off, um, thinking that doesn't make sense because if I become the union staff, that means I need to withdraw from membership because that is the AGMA policy, and I want to continue performing. And she was very convincing in telling me that you are not performing right now, anyway. No one is no one is performing, so why don't you give this a try? And if you don't like it, you can always go back. And um, I worked with her um for a couple years of following that. Um, and it was a such it was such a rewarding experience. And I think I've come to realize this is something I'm very passionate about. I do miss performing, I'll admit. Um, but through this process, um being performance adjacent, so to speak, yes, was still meaningful to me, and I felt that was fulfilling my um artistic soul, so to speak. So I I think that was good enough. But that's how I found the path into the Union staff position.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Uh illuminate us and what what a contract or what the um what the circumstances are like for an artist? Uh and I I you know I take it there are nuances uh that differentiate between a ballet performer, ballet dancer, or a uh opera singer. But getting to the the this the bare bones of it. Generally, how are performing artists uh compensated? Are they provided a salary? Is it on an hourly basis, or is it like a specific contract and they're almost like seasonal workers in a way? Uh are they free agents, so to say, to borrow the analogy from the sports industry? Uh if you could give us a little uh description of what that consists of.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Sure. Every contract is different, and um there are nuances um even within this um artist artist category. Each company may be different in how they compensate the artists. But the general trend um in the industry for opera companies is for um the soloists or the headliners to come in and out based on the production need. Um, and they often they either get uh compensated per production, per performance, or per week. So there are two models of compensations, compensation that you will see um when it comes to principal artists, uh, when it comes to staging staff, um, stage directors, um, choreographers, stage managers, assistant stage managers, assistant directors, they will typically get paid um per um per week. So they're on a weekly compensation. Although when it comes to creative teams such as stage directors and choreographers, it is not uncommon to see them get compensated per production. Um when it comes to chorusers, they might get compensated per performance. Um, and when it comes to rehearsal hours, they'll be compensated hourly for that production. When it comes to dance companies, what we often see is um the dance, the dancers being compensated per week, also stage managers um and staying staff as well. Um, and they have um a guarantee of specific number of weeks within a season. And that seems to be the norm in the industry.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

And during this time that there Being compensated, are they being provided health insurance by the company they're employed with or not?

SPEAKER_00 22:07

That is something we certainly fight for. And generally the dance companies do provide health insurance. And that is not easier per se, but that is more regular with these artists being year-round employees. And we do fight for that. I believe almost all of Agma companies cover either 100% or near 100% of health insurance premiums for the artists. When it comes to opera companies, it does get a little more tricky because the artists are working more intermittently. And for them to secure health insurance to the employers is much more difficult. And that is a challenge that we are facing in the industry. How do we provide health insurance especially for principal artists who really go project to project at sometimes often in different cities and different states? And securing health insurance can be difficult for those artists.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

So for the vast majority of performing artists out there, until they hit you know the big time, so to say.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

So for the artists who are working much more intermittently with opera companies, they would typically have to maintain their employment, which may or may not provide them with insurance.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Now, does your work focus on collective bargaining or are you representing individual artists?

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Individual artists may have their individual artist agents to negotiate their fees, for example. Of course, the fees cannot fall below what is in the collective bargaining agreement, but where um the union works with the artists in in their relation with the employer uh extends typically to the collective bargaining and working conditions.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Hmm. Okay. Um and can you give us some concrete examples how the collective bargaining uh changes the lives uh in the organizations?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Um sure. I mean we have had a state of wins in recent years, and something that we've been uh emphasizing um strongly is um that the artists have to be able to make a living. Um during COVID, I think we have all come to realize that the conditions as it had existed in the industry were not it was not enough. Um the the conditions were not okay. Because when it comes to arts industry, there had been a sentiment of um, well, you love doing this, and this is something that you're passionate about, and this is arts and something that you give your soul and often body to, um, and that's a sacrifice you make. But during COVID, I think the industry had a bit of a wake-up call, um, where a lot of artists felt, no, this is my profession, and I deserve to be treated with dignity, respect and respect, and livable conditions. Um, and across the industry we've been fighting for, for example, living wage for our artists um who are struggling. And we are working for reasonable breaks um or specific working conditions that um would protect uh certain considerations, for example, for dancers, um, ensuring there's health conditions, um maternity leave, um, floor safety. The list goes on and on. But um we have uh been fighting for uh just in general, more livable conditions that respect the artists in what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

In terms of these conditions that uh you're uh mentioning, is this a reflection of an insufficient demand uh that does not generate uh revenue to employ all the artists, or is this more a reflection of the organizations that host the performances not willing to share revenue?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

I think each company is different, and I think it can be either. Um I will say sometimes in the industry there's a scarcity mindset because a lot of these companies are nonprofits, and there are concerns as to can we actually make this work? Um and we do have employers who are very forthcoming about that and respectful in that dialogue, and we appreciate when that happens. Um however, I think scarcity mindset, I don't think scarcity mindset works. I have seen a company with that scarcity mindset would cut away, cut away, cut away, um not just on the artist, but including its staffing structure and whatnot, to the point that the company would hardly function. And at that point, um with the company not functioning, the product that they um present would not be great. And it would create a cycle where the product isn't great and then the revenue takes a hit and the company will cut away and enter into a death um spiral. And I do think some administrators understand that that spiral is not a way to go, that it actually hurts the company in the long run, because it takes a lot more to rebuild a company when it once it gets broken. Um but there certainly is a scarcity mindset. Um sometimes we do have companies that do not share the revenue as much as they should, and in which case we will certainly point that out in the negotiations.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

Okay, let me take it a step further and sort of play devil's advocate, uh adopting, say, a libertarian perspective. And that is, well, you know, why should these conditions uh be addressed if there's no demand, right? Uh I mean, if society really is not that interested in the performing arts, I mean, obviously that that would be a sad state of affairs. Uh, but if the reality is, you know, if we were to leave things to free market conditions, if there is no demand for it, uh, well, you can't force the issue. And the flip side being, but if there is demand for it, if people see that, oh, I want to go uh hear these people sing or watch them dance across the stage, I'm willing to pay for it. Um how how does that change uh the dynamics here?

SPEAKER_00 30:01

I mean, I do think um audience engagement is a real struggle in a lot of places. Um and with ballet, opera, etc. being classical art forms, um, there is an awareness that the demographics that have loved these art forms are, you know, it's diminishing. Um they're often older and it's diminishing. However, I don't think that needs to be a barrier. I think we need to find there needs to be a way where um in the industry and recognition that what the artists are creating holds value. Um there were for a while, um, there was a trend in the opera industry wanting to find relevance to the young, you know, demographics, the young audiences. Um, and of course, every art form has to evolve wartime, and it is good that such um pursuit takes place. But I remember having a discussion with um one general director about the whole idea of pursuing relevance in the general public, and uh I really enjoyed his uh counterpoint to what I was saying, um, in that he felt that chasing relevance didn't work. And once you create value and let people know that there is value in what you are doing, that's what makes a difference, and that's what will attract people towards investing into this art form and the industry. And I think I'm a believer in that too. I see what these artists do on stage, they create incredible beauty and they create they have this community um that they um in which they dwell. And I think there are ways the companies can present that what these artists are doing on stage um matters. And uh now, of course, convincing the public, I think what you're pointing out, is a challenge, or other stakeholders, whether it's um you know government institutions or private institutions or the board members and whatnot, diff convincing the different stakeholders and the general public that this is something they want to invest in. Um remains a challenge, but I personally am personally am optimistic.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Yeah, and I think it would also depend on, say, how much is being invested in perhaps the public relations angle? Uh, because sometimes you can convince um society, right, markets, that, hey, you want to go see this, you want to go hear this. Uh and I wanted to ask you, are there some areas in the United States that have historically been able to um successfully promote and attract attendees to these performances compared to other areas where they are constantly challenged with attracting uh spectators?

SPEAKER_00 33:10

I think that's difficult to answer because um it really varies company to company, area to area, um, and it is it does depend on how the company is able to successfully target um its locale. Um obviously, I mean, just addressing two locales that I cover, um, trying to attract people in Miami, Florida is different than trying to attract people in Philadelphia or Washington, D.C. or New Orleans. So I do think it is important um for the companies to be able to understand the target audience and to be able to target that. Um but I think it really varies. And sometimes it is it is unpredictable. Um what may have worked really well one year may not work as well next year. And I think that's what um often makes the employers um uncomfortable or fearful of what the future might hold in the nonprofit mode model. But I do believe that when you are able to successfully engage your artists and the um local community, I think that that tends to yield benefits.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Um coming back to your particular line of work, uh, for those that might think it's just about the finances, the salary, what are essential non-financial provisions uh such as you know, rest breaks, safety, understudy rules, harassment protection, so on and so forth, that tend to matter most to the performing artist?

SPEAKER_00 34:46

I think working conditions, safe working conditions, I think is so important. Um and also um going back to what I said earlier, um having a say, and because that is a way a company can indicate they take they take the artists seriously, that they treat the artists with dignity and respect. Um, I do think um sometimes there is a tendency to think that you know the artists are um doing what they love and that they'll just love what they're doing, that's okay. But they have their own ideas too. And once again, respecting certain leadership that management might have, it really can make a difference in the workplace when the leadership really wants to listen to its artist. And when it comes to specifics, I mean I think of many, I mean, many things just immediately come to mind. Proper breaks is important. Um, when it comes to singers, we are working with uh you know a muscle that is very tiny in your throat. And once you damage that, it's really difficult to recover. So proper breaks is so important. Dancers as well. Um, when it comes to dancers, I often think about occupational hazard issues, um, proper shoes, um, proper floor, temperature, all these things can um, or not having these conditions, not having the right conditions, can immediately yield injury um and costuming um when it comes to singers, a certain not having certain inhalants that are um irritants to your vocal tract. Um, but I what really stands out to me is I remember um an artist who a few years ago had recently joined the union company. And the artist, and I got on a call, I was introducing myself to the artist, and the artist was explaining how excited that they were they were to be at that company, and they said, and not to have to buy my own point shoes. And when you think about that, point shoes are tools for of the trade. And it shocked me to realize that there were employers who were not providing tools of the trade to their employees, and when that can have such significant impact to one's safety. Um, so things like that I think can um yield results to the artists where they can have a the artist can have a safe working condition and also a lengthy career in something that they're so passionate about.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Uh using that as an example, the point shoes and you know, this particular artist not having to invest in um getting his own. Um do you think when the employing companies are not providing equipment such as that, it's because they can't, they're financially fragile, or is it most cases they're just nickel and diming the performers?

SPEAKER_00 37:51

I think it's difficult to say. I mean, I would hate to comment about the employers, the non-union employers um who I do not have a relationship with. Um but uh either way, I think we have to recognize that these artists um are spending um a lot of they have spent a lot of time training to be um at a level that they are, to have that kind of caliber, to be professional singer, um staging staff, or a dancer, it takes years of training. And I think if an employer decides, hey, we we want to run a company that presents these artists, I do think it's a respectful thing to make sure that it takes care of the artists that you know the employer um engages.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

Oh, absolutely. You want to take uh care of uh your people. Uh and I'm gonna ask specifically about some sort of relationship descriptions. Uh, but before I get into that, uh again, going to the shoe example, and my previous line of work, uh I had the privilege of going to London for the 2012 uh Olympics. And uh there I was part of uh uh an entity that was supporting uh U.S. athletes. And um the women's uh U.S. soccer team uh was gonna be playing at Wembley Stadium against Japan. And so I and uh my colleagues, we had to go meet with the security staff uh for the stadium. And while we're out there, you know, you start engaging in uh banter and you know uh sharing experiences. And they were telling us how the stadium is used also for the National Football League, and they'll come play their games there, and that uh the teams will send obviously folks in advance, but that there was a particular piece of equipment that they would use to assess the conditions of the playing field, the pitch. So then they knew what kind of cleats the players needed to wear. And then all I could think of is oh my god, somebody designed a machine to do that. I mean, that is a level of specialization that is a result of an entire ecosystem that is formed over time. So extrapolating from that to the performing arts, um, and I'm asking you to go out on a limb here, but why do you think such an ecosystem has not developed in the states? Not necessarily on the same level uh with sport, uh, but at least comparatively speaking, uh to be at a much higher level than what it is now.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

I do think some of that does exist. I mean, we have companies that provide, say, sprung floors for dance companies. Um, there are some brands that are known. Um, so I do think some of that does exist. And that is interesting that you should mention that um because dancers often can tell the difference um when they perform on different stages, um, because the difference in the floor. Um, for me as a non-dancer, I wouldn't I wouldn't know.

unknown 41:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

But they can tell the difference how the Marley is laid and how the floor is laid. Um, there's a company that actually takes its floor everywhere on purpose. So there is a consistency of the artist's working conditions. So I think some of that does exist. Um I don't know what the standard is as to what would be most comfortable to the artist. I think there's also you know subjective preference for each artist as to what um a certain hardness of the floor and whatnot, what they pref what they prefer. I mean, granted that the floor is sprom. Um but but that is an interesting question. I don't know if there's a specific standard that is used um that's that's more standardized, that can be more standardized than than what already exists in the industry.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Well, what I mean by the ecosystem, and so not so much the standards, but uh if we think about it, so the NFL is you know made up of all the various teams, and you know, they all have this sort of detailed support uh staff and equipment to you know ensure the athletes are taken care of so they can perform at their highest ability, obviously, so the team can win and the team can obviously uh generate even further revenue. And and all the teams are operating similarly, not exactly the same, obviously, uh, but there's there are things they're all doing um the same way, right? Um but you just mentioned it. Some companies do this, some don't. And the ecosystem I was referring to is again the one that allows for sufficient revenue to be out there, that it's generating sufficient interest in this field, then these things naturally develop, then that you know, companies will be, you know, having their environment set up a certain way, the dance floor is a certain way, uh, that there are breaks given at certain times, uh, that certain equipment is offered to folks, uh, medical care is provided based on you know who the artist is. And I don't mean as an individual, I'm meaning I'm sure you know there's a difference between the dancer and the singer, so to say. So again, it it's it seems like it's a fractured environment in the performing art. Industry wherein as in other areas, you know, it's all self-generating, it's all conducive, it's all internally uh supportive, but it seems not to be that way. And I find that overall the performing arts just has this ubiquitous uh you know eternal challenge of attracting enough interest and you know what can be done about that. But again, that's probably a a different type of uh topic to discuss.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Well, no, I'm actually glad that you brought that up because a lot of the companies do have teams, uh wraparound teams. Um they have um a lot of companies will have physical therapy teams, um, and they will be they'll have production teams that um looks at the floors and they'll have um people reviewing the working conditions, sometimes it's temperature. Um so it does exist, um, but is it as uniform as you're describing? I think some of the challenges, I mean, obviously there are companies that are that have greater revenue throughout the season um that uh are bigger. Um but I think we if you are thinking about the industry at large, we have there are a lot of dance companies. Um uh for example, dance data project will gather information about 150 um you know companies, biggest companies that has background in classical ballet, um, and 150 companies um that has background in contemporary dance. At that point, I think we're already looking at 300 companies, um, whereas if you are talking about um certain uh athletic league, you are talking about a specific percentage of the that you know that sports industry. Um so I think when it comes to certain level, I I would hope that that is expected. Um but yes, there should be a wraparound system and it is something that we actually advocate for. And I think that's another place where the union has a uh has a say. Um there are certain industry industry standards regarding brakes, um, for example, and it was spearheaded by the unions. Um, and a lot of the benefits or conditions that exist in the industry, if it is been if it is beneficial to the artists, those were fought for by the unions. So I think um there it does happen, uh maybe not as clearly, but it does exist, and then unions actually have been spearheading that effort to standardize working conditions.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Okay. Um I mentioned that come back to relationships and sort of uh if you could help us understand those that environment, so to say. So as an example, when you're using the word company, you're referring to say something like the Washington National Opera, right? As an example. Okay. And so, and B, you being a uh opera singer, uh tell us a little bit about the people involved. So you have the Washington National Opera as an institute or an institution, but then you have the opera singers such as yourself. So are the opera singers actual employees of the company, or are they just contracted for the performance or for that season? And then who's the is there an intermediary? For example, is the director an employee of the company, or is he part of uh on a separate contract? Again, if you could give us a little sort of uh explanation how that uh works.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Sure. I mean, I do think some people think uh these uh opera singers may be more of freelancers, so to speak. And I think that's embedded in the nature of the industry where the artist is going from work after work. Um, I do believe that all singers um are our employees because when it comes to who controls um the working conditions, artistic direction, and whatnot, it really is mostly the institution or the employer. Um it does not mean um the artists who come to a production does not have a say, um, but ultimately it is the employer who holds the control regarding specific directions of the company. So um I would say all artists are employees, um, although there can be, there certainly can be the freelancer element of it where they're um managing multiple employments. So often one could say that um operators are managing um multiple employment or intermittent employments with uh many companies across the country or something, sometimes even internationally. Um but I would say the relationship is definitely an employer-employee relationship with an element of the freelancer.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Okay. From your vantage point, what are some of the challenges artists are facing before the curtain goes up that audience members are not seen, but you are as part of you know protecting their uh interest?

SPEAKER_00 49:34

That's I think um there is a lot that happens in the preparation and rehearsal process, and every process is unique. Um there are some productions um that go very smoothly, um, there are some productions that's real difficult, and there can be variety, there can be a variety of reasons. Um sometimes it can be the artistic ask or certain requirements of the either um the position or the production. Um production um has a specific expectations regarding choreography, for example. Um and I mean if you are a singer, for example, that may or may not be part of your training. And that can be difficult. Um sometimes, of course, with any group, any number of people coming together to work, um, there can be personalities that can be difficult. Um when it comes to and it also depends on the scope of the production. I mean, some opera productions can be very small, just a handful of people, um, whereas some opera productions will have a hundred, two hundred people. And that gets messy in an organized way, but still you are there are many people to track. Um if a company is that there are companies that manage those dynamics really well, and it is um the responsibility of the production department to manage that. Um but just when you have a lot of people, I think there are more variables. Um and with the dance companies as well, um, the experience that the artist might have in a specific dance programming versus the next programming can vary widely depending on who they're working with, what choreographer or stages they're working with, even though there may be a consistency of a specific experience with the artistic staff and artistic director. So I think there's that there are variables of what artist experiences like before the curtain goes up.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

How granular can some of these contracts get? So, for example, uh, does it get to the point in a contract, say, for opera singers, okay, yes, we'll definitely pay you so much, give you these benefits, take care of your health insurance. But when you're doing these performances, you all that are in group A and you all that are in group B, you need to hit these specific notes. And failure to do so means you've broken the contract. Can it get that granular?

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Um, I don't think a lot of our contracts um go that granular. I think there are certain expectations um that is common in the industry.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

For example, um a lot of principal artists um when they work with these companies, the expectation is for them to learn the role before they arrive. Um and there's an expectation of competency um and you know, hitting the notes that are in on the page, that's certainly a requirement. Um, and then when they arrive for work um and they begin the staging process, then that's when the fun begins of putting all the pieces together. Um, different singers singing different music, um, different staging, um, and that's when the collaborative process begins as a group. Um, but yes, I mean people should be expected to hit the notes um on the page, for example. If not, there should be a conversation ahead with the music staff um regarding what are we doing here? And I guess that could be an interesting conversation. Let's leave it at that.

SPEAKER_02 53:22

Well, would it be too hard to be able to categorize the performing arts as being an individual or a team type activity? Because it almost seems, you know, one overlaps with the other just by circumstance.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

Absolutely. I think it is both, but I do believe it is more team activity. And maybe it's a unionist in me and seeing the community of artists coming together, you know, in most circumstances. But um I think in a performing arts setting, if you're not a team player, that can have grave consequences. Um that can actually have a grave safety consequences. Um everything that you see on stage should be carefully choreographed. So people are not hurt, um, no one's being injured, or there are no accidents. Um and things still happen even with the careful choreographing. Um so each artist recognizing that they have a place to bring their individual artistry, but that they need to work together um for the betterment of the entire production and for the group, I think it's really important. Um, whether that is strongly embedded into one's psyche, I think it probably varies by each artist. Um but I do believe when it comes to putting on any um production of opera or dance, it is it is a group effort. It takes a team, not just the performers, but um the staff that makes it possible as well.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

Um as an attorney and uh as someone who's worked in also law enforcement and security, uh, you know, to me it was always important trying to identify, as we would say in my previous job with the government, know where the X is. The X is the bad spot where you don't want to be. Um and you never want to be on the X. But if you're gonna be on the X, you want to try to get off of it as soon as possible. From your perspective, what mistakes do you find performing artists make in perhaps not recognizing an X in time that they're gonna find themselves on? And they're exposing themselves uh to risk, and not necessarily just physical risk, right? Uh employment risk. So through their own poor decisions. And the flip side of that, now what mistakes are companies making in their relationships with performing artists that is precisely putting now the integrity of the entire company on the X?

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Sure. No, I really appreciate that. I think often there can often be a there can often be a breakdown of communications, um, what the expectations are, um not just regarding what notes you're able to hit, for example, or what um choreography you're able to perform, but certain culture that you should really embody in working with a company. Um and I mean that's another place where I think labor unions come in. Um labor unions fight for safe workplace. And the safe workplace does not necessarily, does not only have to be the physical safety, but I do think there is, there has to be an understanding in the artistic setting, there has to be a culture of safety where everyone feels safe to come to work. And I think there's a way the company and the union can come together in having that conversation. How do we promote that? How do we communicate to the artist in a way that the artist understands that these are the expectations? Um, and that's where a lot of the joint labor management committees can be very helpful. Um, a lot of the companies I cover, we have a joint labor management committee to discuss whatever issues that we want to discuss. It does it can be a contractual issue, but it doesn't have to be because that provides an avenue through which both the employer and the community of artists can have a conversation about what do we want to see, how can we make things better. Um, so it becomes a bit of a regular check-in, like you might have with the regular relationship therapist check-in. I don't know. So this is a relationship. And I think when the art um company and the artists, the community of artists can be aligned in saying this is what we want to create, how do we get there? Um, and with that in mind, a lot of the companies that I work with do have, do create um certain um community standards or conduct expectations. And often we have worked with the company in creating that. So the company can create the organizational organization-wide um policy uh where it is really promoting uh health and safety of the artist and have having certain expectations of standards of professional conduct that can be in the workplace.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

Uh a lot of uh your comments uh they they allude to um what I would describe as uh implications for an artist's physical health, whether it's injury or perhaps harassment. Um is this, you know, how much of an issue is this in the performing arts?

SPEAKER_00 59:07

I think the industry is evolving. Um I think past few years, um, the industry has come to recognize that this being a classical art form, um there have been certain groups of artists who have been marginalized whose voices haven't been heard as well. Um, and that's something that ACMA as a union, national union, has been pushing hard to, we've been pushing hard to create um environment where everybody feels welcome and safe and included in and taken seriously as internal stakeholders in the organization. So I think the change is happening. Um, I think similar to the society at large, there's a greater awareness of hey, we can create a space that's better for different stakeholders or different experiences, people with different backgrounds. Um, and I think the industry is working on that right now. Um, so I think it's an evolving situation, uh, if that makes sense. Um, and I I'm really excited to see where we may land because we have seen a lot of um strides and improvements from in a lot of companies.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

If you could share with us what you've observed, that especially if there might be for purposes of this episode, uh, representatives of companies listening or for performing artists, what you've observed, whether as a company, what they're doing well in terms of their relationship uh or communication with performing artists, then that allows them to avoid potential uh contention in a uh labor environment. Uh and likewise, what artists um are doing well in terms of their interactions with the companies uh so they're also not creating a contentious environment. Uh could you provide some traits, institutional traits or individual character traits that you find really create these uh successful productive environments? Uh where you don't where you don't really have to come in and say, okay, well, here's the bargaining agreement we all agreed to. Uh no, they through their uh practices are actually uh living up to uh what the expectations are.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

Absolutely. And um I give a lot of credit to my predecessor, Allison Back, um, for mentoring me in this regard. I had understood the labor management relationship to be not, if not entirely um not adversarial per se, but I had some contentious labor management relationships. Um but when I worked with her, what I saw her do often was to set the tongue. We're gonna assume good intentions and we're gonna start there. And I think there's often perception um in when it comes to labor management relationship that it's just by nature adversarial. Um I think it can be. I mean, obviously there's um history of contentious labor management relationship in history, I mean, in the US. Yes. Um, however, I think often what we don't hear about um are relationships that are not controversial or adversarial. Um and what I often say with the artists that I work with is that um being in a union means that you can come together and fight for what you need or want, um, but not everything needs to be a fight. Um and there's a space where both management and um the community of artists can come together and to have that communication um be and be willing to listen to each other, like active listening, and see what each other have to say. We might disagree on some things, and that's okay. And we might have strong disagreements, um, or we might have um competing interests regarding, say, increase in salary versus you know how much revenue that they want to spend in expenses suited for labor. That's there by nature. But I think the relationship as a whole can begin from a place of wanting to understand um each other and wanting to communicate. I do believe collective bargaining provides that opportunity, but it needn't stop there. And um when I have seen management willing to listen to what the artists have to say and take them seriously, and artists likewise, um, and artists generally are that way. They really want the company to succeed. And when that is taken seriously, and when the conversation happens in a sincere manner, understanding we can have competing interests, but we are actually in this together. Um, we want the artists to succeed, we want the company to succeed, um, and when both parties can embody that, I have seen relations uh labor management relationships boom. I mean, I have seen a very contentious um relationship between the artists and management at a dance company turn around. And that uh friction in relationship had existed for decades. So I think when people are willing to listen to each other uh and problem solve together, and obviously, once again, competing interests um resolved another way, you know, as appropriate, or at the bargaining table. But um I have seen incredible creativity uh from uh both management and the artists, especially the artists, um, the creative artists after all, um, in how they can work with um the company or the community in which they work to uh push for uh progress um in in that relationship.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

For our audience members, uh when an Agma member is picking up the phone and calling you, generally uh are there common issues that are surfacing?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:25

Um I think when it comes to artists reaching out to me, I mean, often it's the um questions regarding uh their you know contract agreements, um wanting a guidance on how to navigate specific situations, or um the common thing is like membership questions, like hey, like can we can I double check uh about my membership requirements, how to navigate this? Uh we tend to be the first line of contact, um, first point of contact uh for the artists um in our respective companies that we cover. So yeah, we get those a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Well, when they're asking you about a particular aspect of the agreement, I assume this is because some issue is surfacing. You know, are there again issues that surface with a certain frequency?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

I think each company is different. Um and opera company, issues that opera companies can differ from dance companies. Um I mean, I will say industry-wide, um, I have seen um challenges with the artists and scheduling, uh, with for dance companies specifically. And that is so critical for the artist to be able to anticipate what they need to do and to be able to pace themselves. Um, because these are elite athletes. And the elite uh athletes need to be able to know how they can pace themselves and protect their body and health, you know, and mental well-being sometimes. Because when you're burnt out, oof, not a good place to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

When you're uh looking at your regional portfolio, uh, are there any common patterns that you've identified?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:11

I think the patterns exist more in the industry and then the region. Okay. Yeah. So the dance companies um would have specific challenges more so than um that are different from the opera companies. Um I mean, they're both, but when it comes to challenges, there'll be industry challenges, and then there are specific regional challenges that are very different. Um, once again, like the different locales um and um the working environment, the culture um in Atlanta, Miami, Philadelphia, DC, that'll all be different. Um, but yeah, the challenges are more industry specific.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:56

In terms of challenges and um, you know, worker rights and whatnot, um, have there been instances of say people with disabilities or physical handicaps uh demanding access to say the dance stage? Uh or a an individual uh that has had hearing or vocal issues, you know, they're they're deaf or or or actually perhaps not completely mute, obviously, uh, but they want to try to perform, uh, ironically speaking, as a singer or in some capacity. Have you had issues of this kind surface?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

Um, not really, because when the artists are at the level working with um agma companies, there really are um artists who are at the top of their game. Um obviously there can be accommodation requests uh that are specific. Um, I mean, I think for when it comes to dance industry, being able to perform specific choreography or reasonable levels of competence regarding performing choreography, that's just an essential part of the job. Um, same with singing. Um, so I think those are expected that the artist can perform that. Um but if the artist has specific needs regarding accommodation, and that can be anywhere from being able to have you know seating, like chairs to sit, um, that can be uh an artist being able to drink water um at a specific interval. Um that can be um artist who is not who's on a wheelchair having a specific um access path and whatnot. So it varies, but when it comes to um artists who will struggle to perform the essential functions of the job, uh requesting accommodation for that, I don't think that's very common. We do have systems in most um in a lot of um collective programming agreements where there is um evaluation of some form. So that provides an opportunity for the employer to let the artist know what where they think they stand artistically, um, and if there are concerns that can be communicated in such settings, um, and there's a specific process that would change depending on the company that the company can pursue to have um clarifying expectations.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:32

And has there been a uh an effort to include uh people with say particular handicaps or disabilities, a means to integrate them? They have the talent, but being able to find the the role for their talent, uh so today, for example, uh someone unfortunately may require use of a wheelchair uh so they won't be dancing, but they may have some uh vocal ability and to be able to perform as an opera singer, or uh today, even in a very unique situation, a dancer who's actually blind, uh and maybe just legally blind. Have you encountered uh situations such as that uh where people with certain physical challenges in their lives are still able to perform uh within this industry?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

Um when it comes to dancers being legally blind, I don't think I've come across um that scenario. I think with dancers in general, um my experience has been that the being able to navigate a space is incredibly important and very specific. Um and that that can be a safety issue. And sometimes when that goes awry for any number of reasons, um that we end up with injuries. Uh and we have seen that. Um, so I don't think I've come across that, but I definitely have seen um companies where they accommodate people with um wheelchair or um things like that to make sure that production can work um with the artists in that in the setting.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:14

Um if a mayor or a city council member were to ask you, you know, what can we do to better support the performing arts in our city, assuming they have the resources, because you know, every city is different. Uh some are in good times and some are in bad times, uh, what what would you answer? How would you reply to them?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:35

I do think that we do need um greater support towards the arts. Um and that means funding. And there are a lot of companies that are trying so hard to um create the community, invest in the community by creating these jobs and you know, and working providing artists with working conditions that are um that treats them with dignity and respect. And I think that is so important. Um and when it comes to arts community in any given city, I think that really gives that city or the locale a certain soul. I mean, we often think about neurons and jazz, right? Um and I think there is a way the uh the way um local governments, whether city, county, or metropolitan area, um, that can invest into these um companies. And some do, um, but I will admit some companies exist in the area where art funding is dire. Um and they really try, and we appreciate when these companies go out of their ways to treat the artists fairly, um, despite some of the challenges that they face.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:50

Do some companies uh at times uh support other companies when they're facing uh difficult times?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:00

Not that I know of. I mean, I know companies often engage in co-productions. Okay. Um to uh make sure that they're you know decreasing costs are working together. Um also a company might provide you know a production to another company, um, either sell it or rent it at a discounted price if they wish. But those details are usually hidden from me. Um so I'm sure that may exist, um, but I'm not as privy to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:31

Out of curiosity, um, how do you prepare when you know you're gonna probably have to say no a lot during uh a meeting with uh management for a company, uh, but you're trying to look ahead and preserve a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:47

That is that can be difficult. Um I think when the artists really understand um what the employers are wanting to do, and that you know, and they're they're approaching this in a respectful way, the artists tend to be more open-minded about the web management has to uh propose. If there is respect towards artists' working conditions, um their experience at the company. Um and what I often tell the artists is um to the bargaining process is what are you willing to accept and what are you willing to do? Um and I think in that process the artists realize that you know these are things that we cannot accept. Um and when the artists feel that there are when there are a lot of things that they people have to say no to, sometimes um it takes certain emphasis or certain actions, but we'll make it clear, hopefully, through the bargaining process, that what you're proposing is not acceptable. The artists are not willing to accept the contract to be dis in that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:59

Looking ahead, what are some of the uh biggest structural changes you see on the horizon for performing artists and how is Agma preparing?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:11

I think the biggest challenge that I see is um arts funding is a huge aspect. Um and with EP this being a classical art form, it has uh um an interest that these art forms, opera, concert performances, dances, a lot of them are very old. They are classical art forms, as I said previously, a lot of the demographics that appreciated it um are you know they they they they don't live anymore. And at that point, how do we move this art form forward? Um and meanwhile, how do we survive? Um I think some companies are more have been more adept at um navigating this than others, and some are just having a harder time because whatever circumstances that they're dealt with. Um and in that respect, AGMA has been as nationally um has been offering companies that the there are ways we can work together. Um I remember um a little while ago, um, artists at the Metropolitan Opera um worked with the Metropolitan Opera Management to pursue arts funding, um, and they went to Albany together um and sought specific funding, and they were successful in getting a certain amount of funding. And I think that's a path that um the artists, the community of artists that is a union, and the employer can take together. That, hey, this is in our mutual interest. How can we secure funding um for these nonprofits that often have scarcity mindset uh to really ensure that one, the programs can continue, the art form can survive, while ensuring that artists are continually treated with dignity and respect.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:16

And for someone who's just starting off in the performing arts, they're graduating from the university uh and they're working a part-time or other job to be able to pay their rent uh uh until they start breaking into the industry. Uh what would you like them to understand about their rights and their responsibilities?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:43

I will say as an artist, um, or at least I felt this way, um the reason I pursued um singing in opera was that as an artist that you will create certain stories, narrative, or beauty that that that would change people, that would make so to speak, like the um the world a better place, so to speak. Um and whatever that may be, the motivation, the internal motivation may be don't lose focus of what creates um what makes this art form powerful and beautiful, that the the authenticity, the beauty, the commitment, discipline, um, and all these things that the artists have to embody to come to a level um to pursue this industry at all, it'll be difficult and not lose focus on the heart of why they are pursuing the art form.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:54

But while they have that in mind, what are things they should also uh be cognizant of so they don't over-sacrifice, right? They don't they don't they don't pursue uh this path at their own uh expense, you know. So what do they need to be aware of when it comes to their rights?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:19

I think it is important for the artists to know, one, they have a choice, and two, they have a say. Okay. And sometimes um, and of course, being a unionist, I'm a big believer in this, there are ways you can come together with your fellow colleagues to have that say. And that if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. And don't be afraid. Um these the our forms exist to make us better, not the other way around. I mean, both it could it does both go both ways, but um yeah. If you have a choice, you have a you have a choice and you have a say.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:03

And for our listeners, if there's um an idea that you could leave with them uh as we come to uh the close here, uh what's one idea that you would like them to have in mind when it comes to work, dignity, and the art?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:21

That's a tough one. Hmm, I I'm thinking of two things. Um and I know you said one idea. One is that um I hope these artists I I hope the listeners will understand that in whatever locale that they're in, there is a community of artists that work together, uh alone or together, to create beauty, um, and to create something that is often really transcendent. And I hope people will find that. Um I remember um a quote that's often um attributed to Churchill about cutting arts funding, and Churchill saying that um then what are we fighting for? And I think there's a core to arts that reveals who we are um as human beings. Um also exemplified in with the age of AI that we live in, um, we've seen a lot of AI AI slops, as people call it, I believe. And I remember someone commenting that hey, AI is supposed to be there to ease our labor so we can create more beauty. And that really hit home for me. Um and these artists um point to something kind of something divine, something beautiful. And I hope the listeners will tap into that. Um, the other one I do want to touch on when it comes to dignity and respect. As the artists pursue these professions, it can be impossibly difficult. Um, the profession, um, the discipline that is required to uh rise the highest level of the artistry is difficult as it is. But sometimes depending on the working conditions of any given company, um, it can be really difficult. And the union allows the artists to come together to have a voice, and it's absolutely a core um of any union for there to be a certain democratic principle and for the artists to come together and to say, we want to say, I think it's so American, it is so democratic, and it is so powerful. And I hope there's an understanding that when these artists come together to do this, it is because they care about the art form, they care about the industry, and the artists will rise to something greater than themselves when we allow more space for them to come together and promote um and advocate for the industry.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:18

Mr. Hong, thank you for your time and insights. Uh special shout out to all the performing artists uh that are out there, to the support personnel uh that are maintaining the logistics for them that keep the cultural torch burning. Uh to our listeners, thank you for joining us on Brungart Laws Lanyard, where we provide a little extra perspective because the devil's always in the details. Please join us again uh next week and invite others to follow along. Give us your feedback and suggestions via the link as well. Mr. Hong, again, gratitude. Thank you.