Brungardt Law's Lagniappe
A little extra perspective from Brungardt Law conveyed through conversations with individuals of various backgrounds exploring the interplay of practices, policies, and laws with decision making and leadership. An opportunity to learn how to navigate towards productive outcomes as well as appreciate the journey through the experiences and observations of others.
Brungardt Law's Lagniappe
Governance, Culture, and Growth in USA Fencing: A Conversation with Phil Andrews and Jess Saxon
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An exploration of the leadership, governance, and evolving culture of USA Fencing through an in-depth discussion with CEO Phil Andrews and General Counsel Jess Saxon. Andrews reflects on the sport’s rapid growth, the challenges of expanding access, and the balancing act between innovation, sustainability, and community stewardship. Saxon shares her transition from prosecuting public corruption to safeguarding athletes and members in a fast-moving national governing body, highlighting the importance of strong governance, consistent standards, and responsive case management. Together, they discuss demographic expansion, financial and structural barriers to participation, the realities of youth-sport culture, the impact of social media, and the need for safety planning in a changing national landscape. The episode reveals how strategic leadership, clear communication, and a commitment to athlete and community wellness shape the present and future of fencing in the United States.
Imagine two men standing less than ten feet apart, facing one another with swords in hand, beneath giant oak trees with branches covered in Spanish moss. Duels among the oak trees in what is now City Park in New Orleans was a common affair in the 1800s until they were eventually banned. Emile Laser, a U.S. Congressman from New Orleans, is said to have fought 18 duels there. Fortunately, fencing has continued on and is one of the original Olympic sporting events. Today, it encompasses about 45,000 members and 750 clubs in the United States. Welcome to Brungart Law's Lang At, where we provide a little extra perspective through conversations. I'm Maurice Brungart, your host. I enjoy engaging with experienced, knowledgeable, and passionate individuals for the opportunity it affords to enrich our understanding of the world through their eyes. The more we learn, the more likely we can become better versions of ourselves, guide others towards the same, and perhaps have a little fun along the way. Today's guests are Mr. Phil Andrews, the Chief Executive Officer for USA Fencing, and Miss Jess Saxon, General Counsel for USA Fencing. Mr. Andrews is responsible for the growth and development of fencing with newcomers, collegiate athletes, Olympians, and Paralympians, along with direction and oversight on more than 400 fencing events annually. Prior to joining USA Fencing, he served as the CEO of USA Weightlifting for nearly 10 years, where he transformed the sport's culture, instituted new governance reform, attracted record participation, and secured unprecedented sport sponsorship and fundraising levels. Ms. Saxon leads the organization's legal compliance and governance functions in support of its mission to grow and protect the sport of fencing. She previously was a deputy attorney general with the New Jersey Office of Attorney General, investigating and prosecuting public corruption cases. Welcome to the program. Good morning, Mr. Andrews and Ms. Saxon.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, everything's having us on.
SPEAKER_03:Well, let's just dive right into this. I'll begin with you, uh, Mr. Andrews. What initially drew you into leadership in the sports world and what continues to inspire your work today?
SPEAKER_00:You know, sometimes your career happens deliberately, and sometimes it happens to you, and I'm probably the latter. Um, so I actually started when the NHL had a lockout. Um, and basically I called the uh charity arm that was doing a lockout tour in the UK. I was in college at the time, and said, Would you like to play the University of Sheffield and Sheffield Halland Bears? Uh I had absolutely no plan if the answer was yes, fully expecting the answer to be no. Uh, they said yes. Um, and then I found myself with guys who played a thousand games in the National Hockey League, um, potentially playing against guys who started in September of that same year. So um that was a scary thought. And then so we we got together a bit of an all-star university team, um, and I ended up running the European end of that charity for a couple of years, uh, doing a legends tour and then a slapshot tour, if you know hockey, that's a sort of famous film in the hockey world. Uh, and then ended up getting a job from that in in pro hockey. Um, the guy who gave me my first ever job in sport is uh has been with the Black Hawks organization now for a very long time. Uh, fun fact, he's the guy who, if you've ever been to a pro game and you see a 50-50 draw, he's the guy who brought that to the US from the UK. Um, and uh yeah, uh and you're probably thinking, okay, that you start in hockey in the UK, that's not what I was expecting. Uh, and you're right, and you were expecting to hear from the the head of USA fencing, and a British ice hockey player comes on and you're going, what? Um short version is um I ended up going through a career in the UK um with a number of both in-sport and outside of sport organizations, um, and then ran the uh what is called the High Performance Training Centre in London for the London 2012 Games for Team USA, amongst uh 31 other clients we had for the university. Um and after that, after that game, moved here to uh Colorado and uh eventually found my way to USA Weightlifting, uh a community I I still love and adore to this day, um, and then to fencing three years ago. So that's a potted history of of how a British ice hockey player falls into sport. Well, true and it's skating, so you literally fall into it sometimes.
SPEAKER_03:True. Uh Miss Saxon, from public corruption prosecutions to USA fencing. Give us a little background here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I still don't know how I ended up here some days.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, so you also fall in the same group as uh Mr. Andrews.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, the latter. Um I've been an athlete my whole life. Um, and I actually know Phil from USA Weightlifting. I'm a member and I've competed for Team USA a couple times. Phil caught me right at the right time where I was postpartum and trying to figure out how I was going to return back to work with my precious little baby, and he had a uh job offering for um a position in his compliance department, and he was like, Why don't you apply? I was like, sure. And then here we are. So it turned into uh this new endeavor for me that I've really, really enjoyed over the past nine months. It's been so this is still new, um, but it's been really great.
SPEAKER_03:Well, for the audience's uh sort of curiosity, uh I have a background in fencing. I did it in high school in my first year in college, and when I saw the opportunity, I could connect through a uh mutual colleague uh with Mr. Andrews. I seized this opportunity. Uh Miss Saxon, why don't you give us a little sort of context scope of what being a general counsel for a major athletic organization is like?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a it's it's really busy. It's a lot of moving pieces. Uh like I'm sure most professions, you think you're gonna start your day doing A, B, and C, and you end up doing A, X, B, F, G, Y. Um, so a lot of stuff gets thrown at you, but day-to-day operations, it's mostly dealing with the casework that comes through, through our misconduct channels, any safe sport uh cases that are declined by the center. Um, also, all our outside council, I kind of manage and handle what's going on administratively for uh our outside council. I deal with a lot of contracts day-to-day, um, internal policies and issues that come up there. I think that covers it, right, Val.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, you know, I think the most important line in your entire job description is the line that says other duties as assigned. Sometimes other duties come up, but they aren't even assigned. And so it's it's you know, the roles in your particularly CEO and general counsel in in sports organizations, particularly ones as varied as fencing. Um, can very much, they're not boring, that's for sure. You never really know what's gonna come up, and you know, I think this is where law and leadership cross over at the time of you don't really know what's gonna happen the next day, and that's part of the exciting bit. Sometimes it's the bit that you'd rather wasn't the case, you'd like a little bit more predictability just occasionally. But um, you know, the life and times of of both a CEO and a general counsel means you're dealing with you know, sometimes really happy proactive things. Um and sometimes you're dealing with, you know, last week, for example, we're dealing with uh a uh five-way um new and very new to the Olympic world um and Paralympic World sponsorship contract. Meanwhile, at the same time, we're dealing with some challenging conduct reports that um have to be dealt with, where of course, you know, Jesse's background, particularly as a as a uh former prosecutor and investigator, um, is a huge asset to our particular organization.
SPEAKER_03:And Mr. Andrews, uh, likewise, give us some contacts with USA fencing. So now I I mentioned that there are about 45,000 members uh in the organization, but from the organizational side of it, your side, how large is it? We now know there's at least a general council. Um, but give us, you know, sort of the team size and what your day-to-day affairs are like.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so we're we're pretty lean and mean at USA fencing. Um we have um uh about 20 staff. Uh, I guess we're now going to 21. Uh we just had an offer accepted this very morning, actually, uh, which actually does report to Jess. Uh that's sort of for context. There's about half of or about two-thirds in some cases of national governing bodies of a similar size and scope. So we our philosophy is we'd rather recruit really good people um and um put our resources behind them uh than necessarily have a sort of um wide uh base. It's also partly because we've grown so fast in fencing recently. Uh, probably 20 was a really appropriate number of staff for when we had 25 to 30,000 members and were around about 10 million dollars in in annual turnover. Um and we've just grown really fast, uh, but that's been on the basis of the efforts of the community, um, and of course, some of the efforts of the team as well. So um, you know, you ask what the day-to-day looks like. It can be, you know, as I mentioned with Jess, it's kind of varied. Of you know, just I give you a flavor of the day. I start my day with a podcast with with some guy in Donaldience. Um, and then and then you know, I'm I'm on a senior leadership team later on today. I'm helping out a research project at Georgia Tech. Um, I've got two marketing-related calls, a sponsorship-related call, and I finish my day with uh an onboarding with the US Olympic and Paralympic committees for our new chair, uh Dr. Scott Rogers, who's a Paralympic uh medalist in fencing. Um, so that gives you just one day a flavor of how varied it can be. Um, from expanding the sport to looking after your current people to dealing with some of the dark side of sport to dealing with the financial side. It's it's all things to all people. Um, does it help paint the picture?
SPEAKER_03:Yes, it does. And speaking of- I'll go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:And I'll maybe add just one commer to that. National governing bodies kind of have two um main, I I always say we have two distinct missions. Um, one is to promote uh the sport of fencing. Um so to grow the sport of fencing, bring more fences about, more clubs, look after that community of fencing, and that's everybody from a six-year-old all the way up to people who are fencing in their 80s and 90s in our veteran division. And then we have the other side, which is what a lot of people who are outside of fencing know us for, which is supporting athletes to go and win shiny things in the Olympic and Paralympic Games. Uh, and those sometimes two are distinct, and sometimes don't always aren't always the same in their level of priorities. Here you're spending money to send athletes around the world and get better, stronger, better in their fencing. Here you're really looking for more base, you're looking for more everyday fencers. Um, and we have to do both of those things.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, speaking of looking at more fencers, and I'll deviate slightly for a moment. Um, how much room is there for growth? And in other words, are there demographics that have not been uh properly sought after for whatever reason? Not not a blame game, but are there demographics here in the United States that have been overlooked uh as far as bringing fencing to them and potentially identifying the next set of Olympians? But it shouldn't always be about competition. The idea is to just get new members and they discover a new sport.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Step one is trying fencing, right? I mean, that you know, the our I see a lot of our role as getting people to the front door of fencing club and and from there enjoy it. Um, you know, and fencing, let's be honest, is not for everybody, and that's okay. No sport is weightlifting was the same way. There'd be people who try weightlifting, not for me. Okay. Um, you know, Jess tried it and found it was really for her. So um, you know, and and fencing's kind of the same way. Of there'll be people who who grow a love for it, there are people who won't like it so much. And and the same thing between Saber, Epe, and Foil. Those are three very distinct personality, different styles, different types. And that's okay. So um, so you're right. The first step is more fencers, and not even more fencers in USA fencing, just more fencers, period. And they'll eventually find their way to us as they want to come and compete. I think to answer your question more directly, yes, is a short version. There is room for growth. We're seeing that growth. We're amongst, if not the fastest growing sport since the Paris 2024 Olympic and Paralympic Games. We've seen about 200 clubs added in the last three years. We've seen about nearly 20,000 fences added to our membership, that is in active fencers in the US. That's usually people are competing. Um, we've seen growth, albeit a little slower, in the veteran division as well, which is our over 40s. Our fastest growing, interestingly enough, is younger fencers by percentage, this is six to ten. Our core is really that teenage years 12 through 17, where people are really interested and excited about that college scholarship and going on the cadet world teams and the junior world teams and eventually senior. Um, but we have definitely have room for growth. I think there's growth in our home city, which is really New York City. We are the I sometimes call us a sport of New York. We send more Olympians and Paralympians to the games from New York City than any other sport does. Um, we're also the strongest, amongst the strongest in Asian Americans in terms of our Olympic and Paralympic participation. Um, New York is a huge, huge present for fencing. I think we have more clubs in New York than any other sport as well. However, I think there's still room for growth in a city that has a population as large as many European countries. There's definitely room for growth even in New York. But there's also huge opportunities around the country in places where there's demographics we think look like fencing. New Orleans is a perfect example. Hasn't got a large fencing scene. Probably could. It's a city where there's opportunity for fences and fencing. Chicago's another one. Chicago's our number nine city by population. And if you think about it, it should be number three. So Chicago has a lot of the same demographics that you see in a New York or a Boston or a Philadelphia where we're really strong, but hasn't quite got the fencing bug in the same way. It's big, but it's not, you know, number nine is still not small, but it could be a lot better. I think the Neapolit's St. Paul's another one that fits into that. Maybe the Scottsdale Phoenix area. Um, so there's Miami's really growing right now, Dallas is really growing right now, so they've already sort of got that bug and expanding. So short question is yes. I think part of the issue is sports figuring out who their demographic and who they who their people really are. Uh, but I think for the first couple of years I struggled with that. Uh, I think that might have been the idea we need to be the sport for all. Um, and the reality is we don't have the resources within our sport to be that sport for all. Um, so we have to focus on our where we're doing well and where people are being attracted to fencing. Um, and that's very different to when I was a weightlifting, where weightlifting has a very different demographic, very different strongholds. Give you the polar opposite, New York City. New York is fencing city USA. It is the city where weightlifting does not really exist. And there's a very simple rational explanation, actually, for weightlifting, which is in Manhattan, it's really difficult, and even in Brooklyn to some degree, and in Queens and so forth. It's actually really difficult to find a place to drop weights because you need the amount of strength in the floor, and most gyms in New York City are either on the second floor or above. Indeed, most fencing gyms in New York City are on the second floor above. So that was a long-winded answer of yeah, fencing can still grow. It is. We've evidence uh got the evidence right in the numbers.
SPEAKER_03:Uh Ms. Saxon, as general counsel, uh what from your vantage point, what do you see as for any organization when it's trying to increase its membership? Uh, what are some of the legal obstacles you potentially see or challenges or risk?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's it's a balancing act of trying to balance risk with growth. And that's always a challenge and can be um they can kind of hit each other in the head sometimes because you want to be able to take risks, but you also have to, you know, temper that with compliance factors and what's required to be a member, and controlling that membership to a degree, making sure that their behavior and conduct comports with the standards of USA fencing. So I think growth is obviously really exciting and we want that for the sport, but having these massive growth shifts also puts a strain on us too, um, not in a negative way, but just in a we have to adapt and be able to acclimate to those challenges and rise to the occasion uh when those uh new membership uh comes in and you have to get everything in line.
SPEAKER_03:Um how do you for both of you all, and I'll uh and I'll leave it to you all to see who goes first, how do you balance innovation with sustainability when scaling an organizational an organization's financial and cultural model?
SPEAKER_01:Go ahead, Phil.
SPEAKER_00:That's just for it. Give me some thinking time. Um I was gonna try and do the same thing. So um the you know, I I think you have to innovate and try to do things differently, especially in a small sports organization. You know, if you think about it, we're competing with the likes of in many ways, soccer, hockey, football, basketball, soft uh softball, and the traditional sports. I'd add volleyball into that list these days. Um and you compete for you know, frankly, that youth sport interest to some extent, the youth sport, um, and for time. Um, you know, pre- I mean I I feel this greatly myself as a parent, um, specifically, you know, time is a precious resource too. And fencing takes time. Um, so you know, I I think innovation, you have to fight, you have to go out there and try and do things differently in a national governing body. And it's done as well, both here at fencing and in weightlifting, but you also have to understand and bring everybody along in the community with you in community-led organizations by listening to that community, understanding where that community is. Uh and again, I think this is true in large companies too. It's just a different form of community. Um, where are those people that have come along with you and where they're not, and where it's going to be sensitive. Um, when I got here, I did a list of major listening tour around over 40 US fencing clubs to go into where people are and where they where they practice the sport, just listening. Um, and it Is really helpful in being able to figure out where innovation is needed, where it makes sense, and but also you're balancing that need to innovate. And we've done a lot of things differently here, um, with the need to bring that community along in that process, and also not letting that process be the thing that's it's the obsession. Um, you know, I I think you have to also accept in that there's going to be some things that fall. There's going to be occasional times where you're going to have to frankly spend a little bit of trust drops. What I mean by that. Trust in organizations is ending drops and spent in buckets. And it's really important you you harvest those drops because at some point you're going to have to spend a bucket or two. And at some point, especially when you're innovating and trying new things, something's going to work and you're going to hit some home runs. And some things are going to be, frankly, a foul ball at best. Uh, I apologize for the baseball analogies, but it's it's that that's I think the the the elements. It's it's all about communication. Yes, you have to mitigate risk as much as you can. I have two of my colleagues who I trust implicitly and are very, very helpful in some of those things. One is Jess, and the other one's our CFO. And I think any CEO who has a growth and innovation mindset, I I would like to think I'm in that category, needs people like Jess and Tabitha at their side to be able to balance that out. And that's where you think carefully about constructing your team around you, both in your staff team and also the people you've got sort of in around you in the membership as well. Uh, that's not always controlled by us, but that's controlled by our board of directors, uh in our committees, for example. But there's task troops and so forth that you can form as a CEO to help with certain areas, and we're really lucky in fencing that we have a deep bench of talented human beings in a number of industries who know a thing or two about a thing or two. Um, and I can give a couple of examples. I'm aware I've talked for a solid five minutes in answering a very simple question. So I'll I'll let Jess give her her perspective.
SPEAKER_01:I think the thing for me is kind of culture in USA fencing is like the day-to-day of what people experience, but governance is how you make that experience consistent. So with our policies, our procedures, our accountability, our membership, I hope, knows or is coming to know that the culture day-to-day is backended by that governance piece and us as staff and a board to be able to do that really, really well. Um, and to have those answers and to be very consistent in our practices and procedures so that the culture can continue to be fostered and be a good culture that people want to be in. So I think that's also part of the innovation piece. Uh, culture and innovation kind of go hand in hand.
SPEAKER_03:Miss Saxon, what particular change have you had to make in your role as an attorney going from being a prosecutor, you know? So law enforcement brings you the evidence they've collected so far. And okay, you smell a rat, you want to go after them. Uh now you're in this quite different position. And the temptation is to kind of keep going the way you were before, right? Uh, what particular adjustments have you had to make uh so they don't turn into hindrances for the organization and instead they serve as catalyst?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a good question. And it's it's been a big transition. I've been a criminal prosecutor for 11 years, right? So it's been a huge transition to come into this sports world where it's not necessarily adversarial in my day-to-day, whereas before I was super adversarial in every almost every interaction I had. So I'm constant constantly arguing. I'm good at arguing, I'm used to that. But in this space, uh, you have to be a little bit more calm, peaceful, try to, you know, work with people. And that of that comes quite easily because if you're if I'm thinking about the membership and protecting the membership, that's really that's really the goal, right? And protecting victims in criminal cases, and you're advocating for them. But here I'm protecting members and the people that I'm having these conversations with that are quote unquote might be adversarial, they're also our membership. So I think, you know, having that kind of perspective shift along those lines and trying to bring people in, buying into again the culture to foster that relationship, and that we want we're doing this because we're fostering this culture, and everybody has to be on board, everybody has to abide by these certain parameters. Um, I think it's difficult because of course it's it's a sport, it gets heated sometimes, you know, people are passionate, things get out of hand, a lot of misunderstandings, miscommunications uh turn into a case on my desk. Um, and you just have to have a little bit of nuance in managing personalities in a still welcoming uh way, if that makes any sense. Sure.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, Mr. Andrews, in terms of culture, um, and again, growing the sport, uh having previously fenced and also having got my own kids involved in fencing, uh, many I would say who would like to fence say it's financially prohibitive. And so how does one address that? Uh, because again, uh fencing is a is a unique sport, uh and it requires a variety of skills and attitudes, and as you said, it's not for everyone, uh, but it is for some people, you know? And how do you how do you overcome that obstacle for people who would love to do it, but they don't have the financial means?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, look, I think the problem is, and this is I mentioned it a little bit earlier of figuring out who we really are. And and I think fencing, there's some real positive about the way fencing has moved in the last probably 25 years um to a model which is um fairly commercial in nature. Um and that's allowed, you know, 25 years ago, uh, you know, a former CEO or executive director at Time of U of what was then the USFA, the United States Fencing Association, which is still our legal name. Um, we just call ourselves USA Fencing now as a brand. Um, they walked me through fencing at that time was almost free in the sense of coaches weren't able to make a living. Um, and coaches were, you know, oftentimes frankly they were driving taxis in New York City and so forth, alongside for coaching fencing. And I and I remember this from the word weightlifting, where weightlifting's history as coaches, it was a badge of honor that you did that entirely for free and entirely uh as a volunteer out of your garage all the time. And in both cases, I think there's been a lot of positives that uh running a fencing club is now a viable business. Being a fencing coach, being paid for your long-earned expertise as a fencing coach is extremely positive. However, that combined the need to fund those clubs and plus the need to do as many events as fencing requires, particularly internationally, unfortunately means that fencing is probably going to be a sport of significant expense for as long as the current, especially international um schedule remains the case. Partly as well because we're such a large country. And this isn't a horribly unusual phenomenon for our sport. We also have an issue. My home sport is hockey around the expense of equipment. And it's not that each individual piece of equipment's expensive, but it adds up over time. So, you know, I think where I've got clarity in my own mind is there is room to grow the sport in the you know, in a couple of different ways. One is in the club system, amongst, frankly, yes, families who can afford to be in the club system and afford the expense effective. Look, we are funding more people at the top end than we ever have. For the first time ever, now you're funded down to sixth place. It was four two years ago, now we're down to sixth. First time ever we're funding Paralympic athletes. All of that's good, but you've got to get there first in order to get to that level, right? So um, and so that's one side of it is helping those people find fencing, who, yes, are families who could afford the club system and or can um uh you know have that personality within in the kid who's gonna be attracted to fencing, or the same thing in the veteran side. So that's one side of it. I think the other side is how do you open up more opportunities? So, how do we support a Peter Westbrook Foundation at Piste? We just helped Eli Dershowitz in in Boston open up his foundation. We helped Nick Itkin in Los Angeles open up his foundation, where we can offer fencing to a wider group of people at zero cost and bring those people in and help fund them through those city-based foundations. Denver Fencing Foundation is doing a lot of that in Denver, particularly with Denver's Hispanic community, but also with the Paralympic community. It's one of the reasons that Paralympic fencing has really grown here. Um, that requires passion from individuals too. Um, and there's a lot of clubs who have come along and started to do things like this as fencing sprouts in the in um the uh the Silicon Valley uh that's just started. There's a lot of these service-based organizations. The Nelia Foundation is part of Nelia in Atlanta, Big Sabre Club, MFC Manhattan Fencing Center, right in the heart of Manhattan. They have a similar operation. Obviously, the most famous one is Peter Westbrook, um, which has you know has had uh an athlete on the Olympic team every year, admittedly, including Peter himself since 1988. Um, so I think those are the two ways we can do it. We've also got programs we put in place to help it the affordability, particularly of national events. Um, something called fencing the gap is that program, which essentially opens up and broadens those opportunities for people to do fencing to your point who otherwise can't afford it, because yes, it can become a very expensive sport. And then the last piece is high schools. In New Jersey, it's a different culture because we have the private high schools, yes, who would fit into that sort of more afterward demographic sure, like a Pingree or Lawrenceville, but you've also got this wider group of schools across the public school system in New Jersey who have fencing. And that's the same in Long Island, it's the same in the Westchester area, and there's about 150 schools total all over the country that offer fencing. So that's another area where fencing can come, become affordable and accessible in a way that doesn't affect the success of the system that we've got in place in um in the club system, and I'll share a small story if I may. Um, in Long Island, I had a chat with a guy who was an athletic director of a public school, and it turned out he was the fencing coach. And I said, Oh, great, did you grow up fencing? He said, No, I learned it last year, and I was surprised. And I said, What? And he said, Well, my fencing coach left. I couldn't find a new one readily, so I learned it. I learned how to coach, and I'm coaching the team. And I said, Why? You know, you're busy as an AD, you're busy as a as a um as a as a as a key teacher, coach, administrator in the high school. And he said, Here's why. A lot of those athletes who come into the fencing team don't practice any other sport. He goes, let me be clear, they're not lazy. There's just no other sport that speaks to them. And my passion is sport. I want to see young men and women doing physical activity, and I love that. And then we did an onward survey, and it turned out over 80% of fences on Long Island in the high school scene were exactly that. They were somebody where they were doing music or drama or even gaming or something, and they were drawn to fencing in a way they were drawn to other sports offered. So um, you know, shout out to that guy. His point was I don't really need to be, you know, I don't need to be a Greg Massialis or an Ali Dustard or a Tim Morehouse. I need to be able to advance, retreat, parry repulse. That's pretty much all I need to teach. If they're gonna be talented, I'm gonna find them somebody they can go and really practice that at a high level with. And I was this is an unbelievable guy. Um, but I think that sums up a lot of fencing and sort of the issues you're talking about in perhaps one conversation.
SPEAKER_03:Um briefly, if you could comment on uh having lived in Europe a long time ago, uh sports athletes, athletics, uh it's much different there. They tend to be state governed or state uh run institutions, whereas here athletics, it's more of a private uh sort of enterprise. Uh, I take it that was the same in in the UK. It was uh fencing is probably a state-funded uh entity, correct?
SPEAKER_00:Somewhat. So there's there's different and there's different ways of funding Olympic and Paralympic sport, and indeed you've sport in different places. So it's specific to fencing. For example, in Korea, the the high school federation, the club federation, and the Korea Fencing Federation are all linked, but they're different federations. So in other words, the KFF, which is the national team, is actually separate from um from our uh from our uh high school and club activities in specifically in Korea. So all all quotation monks, all they do is enter teams internationally and seek to win in the Olympic Games, and they're primarily funded by, sure enough, the the Korean government. And there is significant, uh I would say government endorse is probably the right word, investment from major companies in Korea. So SK is the major sponsor of uh Korean fencing, there's there's others who are um there's others who are very much um involved in like Hyundai and Genesis and Kia involved in some of the other sports. Uh France, um, the French have a system where similar to our YMCA system, um, which is funded by the government or subsidised by the government in each town in France, which is where you can go and fence. In Britain, yes, Olympic sport is much more government funded through something called the National Lollery. So, similar to Powerball, what happens is a percentage of that money goes into a sport fund. That sport fund is then goes to an organization called UK Sport, who fund high performance sport, and then Sport England, Sport Scotland, Sport Wales, Sport Northern Ireland, who fund uh essentially sport infrastructure, some more like grassroots uh sport, and then they're the BOA and BPA, British Olympic Association and British Paralympic Association, they're the people who actually enter teams into the game. So their real Team GB um exercises go into the Games. Um, so it's a little complex, but a short version is in the US, our system for Olympic sport means you raise your own money. We get a small amount of funding from the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee, which itself does not get the government funding. Um, it receives funding from primarily the IOC, through media rights, uh, through sponsorship, through donations. For us, it's about events, membership income, donations, commercial sponsorship, um, and and merchandise are probably our biggest revenue generators. And that's what has to fund the entire operation of USA fencing. My colleagues in England, on the other hand, their budget is over 50% funded by the national dollary. So, uh, and through UK sports, so in essence, government funded. Um, in France, even higher. Um in places like Hong Kong or People's Republic of China uh or Japan, vastly government funded. So it it's we're one of the few nations on the planet that doesn't have any government funding per se. There's a few VA grants that are around subnational governing bodies, particularly around Paralympic fencing or Paralympic sports. We actually don't get any hero fencing at this moment in time. Uh but in general terms, the only entities that are have any government funding to speak of is USADA, the US anti-doping agency, receives a large grant um from the Office of Drug Control. Um, and then there's a much smaller grant um which covers the audit functions or partially covers the audit functions of the US Center for Safe Sport, which looks after anti-sexual abuse investigations, primarily in the US Olympic and Paralympic movement. So, yeah, sure, in short, yeah, we have to generate our own money in order to promote fencing, in order to run those competitions, in order to send team USA around the world. And so does USA hockey, US soccer, USA team handball, US judo, USA weightlifting. Whereas in other countries, you're usually much more supported. And then, by the way, commer, you also have systems where those athletes are remunerated as part of a government entity. So a lot of the time that's either military or, for example, in Italy, uh, fences are members of the police force. Um, the Russian system primarily focuses on the military, so does Germany. So a lot of Russian athletes are actually technically a ranked military officer, which is part of the reasons why when the Russian bans came down from the IOC, the ban was written, so that they included individuals linked to the military, which is of course most athletes who are part of, for example, CSKA. CSKA and I think Dynamo are both heavily militarily-linked clubs. So that's why they've eliminated so many of their very top athletes, because they're all technically military members.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, Miss Saxon, um, switching this a little bit, so going from being a state-sponsored organization here, USA fencing and all the clubs, uh, private entities, as most athletics are in the states, except for football, perhaps. Um, but what are some of your challenges when you have to be concerned about state regulations? What are what are uh common things that have popped up across the United States? Oh, you know, this particular law in this state over here, it's very similar to this one over here that presents. Challenges when y'all are trying to help out uh with these 400 events that are going on every year.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, most recently we've had a lot of issues come up with, as you've seen in the news, our transgender policies that came down from the USOPC. And we're currently navigating uh those issues because the overarching policy and the executive order are somewhat in contravention to a lot of state laws. So I can't really speak too much on this particular issue because we're in litigation, but um it causes a lot of challenges for us because we are having competitions throughout the country and every state has different laws and regulations. Um, and we have to be mindful of those and how our competitions and our policies and procedures are impacted by them. And sometimes it's a big challenge to uh uphold what we need to as an Olympic MGB and also be in uh in step with all the state laws. So um it's and definitely in this political climate, it has been quite a challenge for us, and we're still navigating how to you know move forward in in this climate.
SPEAKER_03:Um, aside from that, uh what are some of the other sort of common legal issues or concerns that come up when you're advising, oh, you're gonna host this event? Uh, I assume personal injury is there at the top. Uh, you know, has are the event sponsors properly insured, whatnot? But if you could give us some examples of sort of common uh guidance you're given organizations that they need to keep in mind, which would be applicable to other athletic organizations.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I don't know that we have a ton that come up, Phil. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but we have insurance policies that cover our USA fencing sanctioned uh competitions, and that goes for all states. So we have, you know, various insurance policies that cover all of those items. Um and also our policies and procedures are come, you know, come down from Safe Sport and the US OPC. So those are really our governing bodies and the the bodies that we answer to. Um and that's kind of that's the same for every state and every competition that we have to um navigate. And we have systems in place for that and and have those compliance checks and those audits that we go through. Um we had an audit this past year where a regional event was audited, um, and that's just standard course to make sure that we're complying with everything that we need to as an Olympic MGB and make sure that our compliance standards and our safe sport requirements are all being met and adhered to at every level, Mr.
SPEAKER_03:Andrews. Um when you're working with other organizations, so they're down at the municipal level, uh so to say, uh, from Manhattan, as you were talking about, to Denver, uh what where do you put your focus that if you could have one thing that club does that would align with your greater vision for USA fencing? Uh, because obviously they are trying, they have their particular interest. It could be they're not interested in growing membership, they just want a handful and be able to dedicate their attention to those athletes, and then others they're more interested in, yeah, growing the membership. But do you have a common focus when you're meeting with different clubs or that you're reaching out to them that you would like at least they do one thing because you know it supports your particular vision?
SPEAKER_00:I think you know it's worth bearing in mind clubs are our members, not the other way around. So, yes, there's there's a degree to which um we hope to lead them to certain places, but as we're primarily here to serve them as a community of clubs um versus the other way around. So I think it's it's more of the clubs informing the way that I structure USA fencing and and what we're doing than the other way around. Uh with that said, um, look, you know, to your point, we have a huge variety of clubs. Some are for-profit, some are non-profits, some are focused on uh only youth fencing, some are focused actually fully on vets, some offer parafencing, some don't. Most don't offer all three weapons, most focus on one, uh, or two at max. So there's a huge variety, you know, in terms of where I think we could get better as a group, you know, having a consistent uh management tool. Um, so the the app that you use for your fencing club, um, I think is one which we could all benefit from integration there. So they understand all their members are insured by membership uh really easily. We've made progress there, but you know, there the an app is specifically based around us border fencing. I think it's one. Um some offer an on-ramp, a tri-fencing experience, and some don't. Um, I think it would be better if we were consistent in either yes or no, um, but it's also their business, and you cannot um you cannot dictate that to their business. Um, you know, as I think about um adult fencing and parafencing, having clubs that offer those two things on a consistent basis would really help grow uh the sport beyond the college age and and help grow Paralympic fencing, two of our areas which are smaller. Um and and there are many clubs who can't do that or don't want to do that. And and that's okay. But you know, if if you think about if we had consistently strong parafencing offerings and strong outreach in parafencing and the amount of places that we do in able-bodied fencing, it would be a game changer for our chances of meditating in the Paralympic Games and growing our Paralympic base. Um same thing for adult fencing. But sometimes your club's too small to be able to offer that reasonably enough. Sometimes you don't have the expertise in your in your club to offer parafencing. I'm thinking of a club out in the San Diego Metro where they open basically after the working day in the evening, and they're very, very good. But the people who run that club have full-time jobs outside of fencing. The coach there does not, but the people who manage the club and own the club do. The fencing parents decide to open their own club. And, you know, for them to go and put the work and time and effort in needed to expand parafencing in San Diego would be challenging, in all honesty. Because if I look at the people who've been most successful at that recently, which is Denver Fencing Center, they've they've had to put a lot of time and effort into fundraising for it. They've had to put a lot of time and effort into going out there and finding those fences. And then probably the model that a lot of people have taken on, and I mentioned DFF, um, where again they have the capacity to have a non-profit foundation attached to their club, uh, like many have started to do, to address that fencer who's talented, wants to do the sport, but doesn't necessarily have the funding to do it, then that's probably another place which would be really useful. But again, it's more for us to listen to our members in our clubs, and not necessarily to one specific club or another, but to try and bring in those together.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, Miss Saxon, have you had an opportunity to go to any of the events and observe uh to be able to see, you know, well, what's actually happening out on the floor?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I have. It's still very new to me. Um, but I have gotten the opportunity to go to a couple events now. Um and our sports performance team was able to kind of take me around and show me the ropes. You know, I had no idea what bout committee was or strips or, you know, there that there were three weapons. So I've since um, you know, learned a lot about the sport of fencing and been able to uh see it live in action, which has been very cool.
SPEAKER_03:And while you've been going to the different events and observing and learning, uh did you have your lawyer side turned off, or did you have it, or was it still on and you're looking like, oh, that could be a particular issue down the road?
SPEAKER_01:It's always on. It's always on. I don't think, unfortunately, once you go to law school, you can't ever turn that off.
SPEAKER_03:So um so what are some things that you've observed that hmm I have to keep that in mind and put that on my little uh uh list to come back to uh because this is something a coach or a club or we as an organization need to be aware of to address before it actually turns into a problem.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think um, well, for one, it was the very first thing I noticed when I came in was our case management system. Um or I I don't want to say lack thereof, but uh it wasn't very organized or succinct in a way where you could look back and see how many cases have been filed against a particular person over the course of years. We had, you know, seven years back, but we need to keep that database, you know, so we can have those files present. And those are the kind of lower level misconduct. Obviously, we keep safe support cases. Um but uh I think that was the biggest kind of red flag for me because that's obviously uh a risk for us to know, you know, the the people who we need to keep an eye on and uh the people that maybe uh need to have uh a higher level sanction on the next go round. Um so I think that was the biggest flag for me. I've been really embedded in the casework here because it is so volumous. Um and so really dialing that in and making sure I have a process that people can trust and they know that their complaints are getting heard and they know that the sanctions are going to be escalated if need be, um, and that the process and procedures they can kind of lean into and rely on, and they know like Jess is gonna take care of that, Jess is gonna investigate that, Jess is gonna handle that. It may not be always to my liking, um, or you know, whatever, but uh it is going to be looked into and heard. So I think that that has been, I feel like the biggest impact I've been able to make in my last nine months.
SPEAKER_03:And for you, Mr. Andrews, when you're out on the floor and watching the Fenchers on the strip, the coaches on the sidelines, uh the judges and whatnot, what's catching your attention as ooh, that's something that we should definitely continue doing, or that's something we need to perhaps tweak, and that is something we need to stop.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I don't know if I have a single answer to that question. I think it's yeah, I spend a lot of my time at events walking around, just being open to those conversations. I'd be saying this a couple of times, um, with the coaches, with the athletes, with the parents, uh, with the referees, uh, with our tournament officials, you know, things like replay, things like our belt committee, which is sort of the operations area, our armorers. Um, all of those people have very different perspectives, and each of them has value. Um, I find it very difficult to go to sports events in general without an eye for the not the sport part of it. Um, I was at the New York Islanders last week and was doing the exact same thing of looking at how they're doing their corporate partnerships, how they're doing their hospitality, how they treat people, the way their team works, the way their team talks to each other, talks to people. Um, there was happening against the Vegas Golden Knights, who we have a relationship with as well. Um, and so it was interesting seeing those two organizations that work very different to us, but we can learn from them. Um, so you know, the there's our I I've lost the perspective that Jeff still has a little bit of being fresh to the sport because I'm now three years in. Um, and that's certainly a really useful perspective to have. And there were some things that we made changes to when I got here of you know, we used to have no actual signage along the side of our strips. Now we have it on every strip, but it's just fairly inexpensively upgraded the look and feel of the whole thing. Um, and also provided opportunities for our commercial partners, for our foundation, but also things like reporting issues to Jess, there's there's things around that that are now up, and celebrating our collegiate programs, which is a big part of us, um that have happened since they got here, which is really around branding and signage, uh, and perhaps the experience of being there. Um and now I think I gained the most value to your point of like we should stop doing that, start doing that, from honestly, conversation more than the actual side of fencing. Um, obviously, you're not managing a sport if you're not watching the sport. You've got to do that too. But it's the people who make the sport, if that makes sense. So when you talk about community and building tight-knit communities, especially a niche sport, a lot uh a lot of that comes down to building those connections between the organization, its community, building the connections between that community and each other. And maybe Justin speaks to this as from an athlete perspective from a time of weightlifting, but in a niche sport, and I found this when I was in hockey too, which is a niche sport in the UK, that it's a those become passionate people who are interlocked together and part of the job of a national organization is finding those opportunities for a fencer in New York to meet a fencer in New Orleans, to meet a fencer in San Francisco, and together bring together community.
SPEAKER_03:For both of you, uh, and we'll let Ms. Saxon start off first. Social media. So, where do you see the uh pros and cons of social media for innovation in USA fencing uh and for the respective clubs, the members, uh, and growing the organization and you know, outreach efforts, and then also the disadvantages it presents, uh the potential liability concerns. Uh, because you know, social media, properly used or uh effectively guided, it can uh prove very beneficial, right? Uh in terms of education, entertainment, uh proper entertainment, so to say. Um, but then you know, if it's not carefully guided or if uh people are just doing whatever they want, it can create uh distractions, so to say, at the least. Um but there's an opportunity there. How how much is USA fencing using social media um and what are the concerns? So we'll start with you, Miss Axon.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so this is uh Brian Wendell question. He's our director of communications and he's fabulous. Um, but he, I mean, he has all the statistics that I don't have, but he does an amazing job managing, you know, our website, all our social media, uh, being at all the events, whether virtual or in person, and giving live updates from every event that we have and host. So um I think it's an amazing way to get the word out about fencing and spread what we're doing in this community and all the exciting things that are happening. Uh, it's also great in a way to obviously share, share um news. Um, sometimes email blasts, you know, it's another email and it just gets deleted. But perhaps if they see a fun little video on social media, uh it's it's more in tune to what the audience wants. So I think that's a great uh way to communicate with our membership. But of course, everything comes with its cons. Um unfortunately, you know, social media can be used in negative ways as well. Uh there's a lot of, you know, comments and harassing, potential harassment, and just, you know, people get into heated debates that turn sometimes into misconduct reports on each other. So it's not always the most professional or friendliest environments. Um so that I think is from my perspective the biggest issue in that realm. But for for USA fencing, I think overall it's it's a great aspect that we have and utilize very well.
SPEAKER_03:Mr. Andrews?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I I I would agree with that. I think you know, in niche sport more generally, it social media and sort of including things like YouTube as well as Instagram and Facebook and so on, has become a really good thing because it exposes many more people to those sports than otherwise would. I agree with Jess, there's certainly downsides. We, specifically in fencing here versus where we were in weightlifting, more of a youth sport, and there's some protection issues that need to be addressed there. Um, you know, and we we certainly see a difference between where our youth fences might show up more often versus where our parents of those fences might show up more often, different demographics of different platforms. Overall, you know, we're a fast sport, so you can get a touch into an Instagram reel. And I think that's really helpful. Um, so I think there's more good than bad in exposing more people to more sport that's come with the social media age than there has been uh negativity. But again, you take everything with the good and the bad, and and and I think the good on social media definitely outweighs the bad, but it doesn't mean the bad doesn't exist.
SPEAKER_03:Um ironically, sometimes I find that those that are documenting most of the uh uh most of the action happening, it's not the athletes themselves or the coaches, it's the parents, which is a natural phenomenon. Uh but uh as I've uh been a spectator, uh sometimes I get the sense that perhaps some parents might be getting a little overinvolved. Um do you see this as well uh or not?
SPEAKER_00:I think you know 99, 98, 97% of parents are perfectly reasonable, perfectly well behaved, perfectly supportive parents. But there are ones who do need to occasionally, frankly, uh moderate their behavior, either in their treatment of the referee um or tournament officials, or uh uh and again, this is not a fencing problem, it's a youth sport problem at the moment in the US. Although fencing certainly has it, partly because um we allow our folks, particularly parents, to be very close to the field of play, whereas a lot of sports are much more removed from the field of play. Um, so um, I mean, there's certainly we've we've got together with people in hockey and wrestling and taekwondo and others where to sort of exchange ideas on this and indeed put in some items in place. But it is the the issue is mutual respect. Everyone's gonna be passionate about the kid doing well. Um, I'm a fairly new parent. I'm passionate about my kid doing well. It's a perspective that I understand deeply now as a parent. Um, but it's the there are occasions where that needs to be moderated. And you know, everyone's gonna have that time that they are overly passionate about their son or daughter. That one time is forgivable, or provided it's within the realms of, you know, and especially if you hold your round and go I went over the line, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's fine. It's not a hard and fast, everybody's passionate. But there are times where it's it's a it's an attitude, and and that is problematic in in youth sport. There has to be mutual respect between athletes, referees, coaches, parents, and and everybody else around. That is the what it comes down to. It comes down to even if you disagree with call, for example, with the referees, it's okay to say, hey, I didn't think that was right. Could you explain that to me? It's not okay to start shouting and screaming to them, certainly not to physically assault them. Um, yeah, and and I I I I'm perhaps expounding a little bit too much here, but I think that's what it comes that the biggest underscore is with respect. But I also want to be really clear. There's some amazing parents in fencing. There's some amazing parents in weightlifting and youth weightlifting, there's some amazing parents in youth hockey. 95, 96, 97% or more of those parents are supportive. They just want their kid to enjoy something that they've expressed interest in. And hey, by the way, if there is a college place at the end of that rainbow, that's awesome. If not, that's okay too. There are some fantastic parents who are helping those kids do service items like fencers do good or fencing sprouts, which are all started by under 18 fencers supported by parents. Um, and so I in in the message of is your sport challenging with perhaps an overly aggressive um parenting style sometimes? Yeah, it exists, but there's also the opposite of that the phenomenal human beings that are just doing everything they can to give their kid a good life and a good experience.
SPEAKER_03:So, would it be fair to say that really the phenomenon of overzealous parents, so to say, uh it's pretty much been consistent um historically speaking. Uh it's not something of real concern that there are more incidents of bad parents, so to say. It's it's just a common phenomenon. Maybe we just see it more because precisely of social media. There are more people uh involved nowadays, so it's just a matter of proportionality.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's a serious problem. I don't want to take away from the seriousness of it, um, where it does exist. I I I think to your point, we are seeing it more often across youth sport, unfortunately. Um, I think in fencing specifically, the sport has grown significantly. So that's part to your point. You're gonna see more incidents when the sport grows. Um, you know, I always compare it to if you have a village or a town and that town doubles in size, and your crime rate, for example, is a percentage of X, your incidence of crime will double, even if your percentage doesn't go up. So if you're thinking from that perspective, you're going to have more problems. Um, I don't want to I don't want to poo the seriousness of it. What I don't want to do is dress every parent up the same way.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:It is serious. It's something that we really need to address as a not just in fencing, but as a national community here in the United States, um, around the attitudes of, and to some degree abroad, I hear the same things from Canada, GB, uh to some extent Australia, uh, ones I speak to relatively often. But as sporting communities as a whole, we need to find ways to find mutual respect between parents, athletes, coaches, referees, and everybody else around the sport. With all that said, yes, it's a serious problem. I just want to make sure we don't tar every single parent with the same brush. It is okay to love your child. It is okay to be passionate. It's okay to be passionate about the sport, it's okay to be their biggest cheerleader. All of those things are highly encouraged. It is not okay to step over the line where that where passion becomes disrespect.
SPEAKER_01:And that's exactly USA Fencing has a mechanism in place to address these issues. So even if a parent is not a member of USA Fencing, we still have a spectator code of conduct that we expect parents to abide by. So uh, you know, I unfortunately I get to see a lot of the the negative parts of this of this dynamic uh because I'm in charge of the misconduct cases, but we do have a mechanism in place to try to resolve that, if only to bring awareness. Like, hey, we understand that exactly what Phil said, you're passionate, you want your child to do well. You might not have agreed with the ref's call. You might be mad at the kid who, you know, hurt your fencer on accident, but that doesn't necessarily give you the right to approach them and yell at them. You still are expected to abide by our community standards.
SPEAKER_03:Uh on that note, and in light of what's happened recently, uh, Australia, uh, Brown University, and also with the unfortunate uh reality in the United States of shootings at educational institutions uh and activities, um and not just USA fencing, but do you all find yourselves talking to the leadership of the other athletic organizations about this being a you know a concern? You know, does this come up, you know, the the what if at an event?
SPEAKER_00:I mean a short version is yes, we we have uh emergency procedures um for uh fencing events. Uh there has been, unfortunately, a few years ago, uh an incident in in Dallas. Uh I believe it was Dallas, it was before my time, um, where there was a shooting close to a USA fencing event. Um, obviously, uh, or no, perhaps not obviously, um, fencing is a very large Jewish community. Um, and fencing is also a vastly sport of Brown. Um, so certainly, you know, the as I as I sit on a desk which has got Hanukkah decorations on it as we very speak, um it hits close to home. Uh that could have been our students, uh Brown. Um it's you know, we we've obviously had a lot of um violence here in our own borders against uh Jewish individuals. Those two hit heart close to home with with a significant proportion of our membership from the Jewish community. Um we obviously hope that an attack like that never happens at a USA fencing event. Um we we we ourselves have have got um an emergency plan for every national event that we host, and that can look like almost any issue. Um the I I sit on the Board of Sports Events and Tourism Association for the whole of the US, which is essentially the collection of all the cities that host sport in the US, sporting events, um, and and also all of the the leadership of those events of what's called in their world rights holders. And uh and a pointed discussion specifically around this has not necessarily shown up, but emergency crisis procedures has. Um you can only do so much uh to protect your community, unfortunately. Um, you know, we we hope that nothing ever comes to that level of violence or level of attack on an Olympic sport, any sport, frankly. Uh never mind USA fencing. Uh, but yes, that has affected our communities without question. Uh that has affected our people without question, particularly when it comes to the two examples that you talked about where on-campus shootings that happen very close to um our people. Um, and um uh similarly attacks on the Jewish community. Uh and finally, we had uh there was an issue where there was an attack in the National Football League NFL's building. Uh, one of our board members works for the NFL. They were in the building that day. That person was trying to target the NFL. Um, so I understand from media reporting.
unknown:It's scary.
SPEAKER_00:It is, and um, we have to be very careful with you know how we um how we deal with instance like that. But you know, it it's it it in the end, as a small sport organization, there's it there is only so much we can do. We'll do everything we can, but in reality, there's only so much we can do to protect our organization and our people within those events.
SPEAKER_03:Shifting uh towards structure uh and decision making and leadership. Miss Saxon, you being newer to USA fencing, so you're coming in with sort of this uh almost the benefit of an external observer uh uh vantage point. What have you observed having come from a culture of you know assertiveness, sort of almost borderline uh aggression, because prosecutions, you're really going after someone that you definitely know uh they need to be prosecuted. Uh and you have a lot of folks involved in that from the law enforcement officers, your own leadership there, balancing the politics as well. Uh, you know, do you move forward with the case? So watching uh Mr. Andrews and the rest of the team, what have you observed that they're they are doing really well and and it makes sense that other organizations uh should probably model themselves after?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think USA Fencing has the best team. I'm very biased, but the the culture shock was not only from the legal perspective, but also from uh being a part of a team that really is collaborative and cares for one another. And I don't say that very surface level. I mean these these colleagues of mine are wonderful to work with and really have each other's backs when you know you need that midnight email be to be sent. They're right there, or you know, something has to get done today, um, despite their busy day. It is definitely um nice when you know that you can lean on people and rely on people. And especially through my transition, I mean, I knew some because of weightlifting and my experiences there, but I definitely I still am learning and have a lot to learn and can learn from everybody's experiences here. But um to have colleagues that can kind of help you along the way has been really, really lovely. And it's been a joy to work here and to work with Phil. Phil is an amazing boss and leader of the organization. Uh, he gives us plenty of space to grow and move within our own teams, but he definitely is always there for support and to help us uh be the best versions we can be of ourselves. So it's been a really nice change culture-wise. Um, as much as I miss fighting with people every day, it's also been really nice to kind of sit in this space that is uh positive. And also in criminal work, it's unless you have a victim who is present with you and you're talking with them, it's sometimes very hard, especially in white collar crime, to see the impact that you're making. But I am able to see the impact that I'm making every day in the sport, resolving these cases, getting emails from parents about just their appreciation that their complaint was taken seriously means a lot to me. And is nice to know that every day I'm making an impact. Um, so that's been a nice shift for me as well.
SPEAKER_03:Well, let's delve one step further. And if you had any sort of guidance, and it's beyond the law, you know, in keeping with the uh the name for the podcast, Lang App, a little extra here. What bit of advice would you give to a leader of any organization, whether it's athletic, a nonprofit, whatnot, that they should keep in mind as they're you know interacting with others? Uh what do you find makes for effective leadership since you get to watch it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I think the biggest aspect of leadership that I appreciate and Phil does a really good job of is well, I several things he does well, but I think one is is owning his part in the matter. Phil will apologize, and I think that's a big thing that means a lot to the people under you. If you can own and take responsibility, um usually it's a shared responsibility, right? But typically leadership doesn't do that, and that really means a lot, I think, to the people under you if you can own your part in it. I think the other part is the why. I think some leaders are just like, do this, do that, do this, and everybody's in the back, like, why am I doing this? And Bill does a good job of explaining, like, this is the why behind it. And then that reinforces us um to be like, okay, I can get behind this, I believe in it, this is why we're doing it. Um, obviously, he's our boss, and if he tells us to do something, we need to do it. But it makes a better culture and community to know the why behind something is being done or why something needs to change so that we can get behind it and understand the changes that we're making or what what we're doing.
unknown:Now we're heads in.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, speaking of the why, uh, Mr. Andrews, when you were with USA White uh weightlifting, you were the first to implement a mental health-focused athlete wellness program. Do you intend on doing this at USA Fencing? And what gaps led you to actually come up with that innovation to begin with?
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. And and Jess's comments are two points. Um, I really appreciate it. We know uh leader or you know, partition box boss is perfect, uh, and I am definitely not a perfect leader. Um so um uh coming to your question, the the the the uh the member wellness program in in USA weightlifting, the the idea was centered around um a lot of the issues that came out of um the period around sort of the 2016 Olympic Games and just after, which was centered primarily around the Larry Nasser case in gymnastics, but had far-reaching consequences across different sports. And we were becoming an athlete-focused organization, at least I'd like to think we were prior to the 16 Games, and and we were probably a little bit ahead of our time. Now that's an expectation that you've got to be focused on the full athlete in Olympic and Paralympic sport. Again, just can speak to this a little bit from her perspective as a member and as a high-level athlete in that sport. Um, the biggest driver for me was um the biggest driver for me was around uh weird athletes who unfortunately in weightlifting had experience with with Larry Natsa. Um and um that struck me that we needed something to look after people. Uh, and it might not be coming to the organization, they may need to talk to somebody who's not in the organization. Um, I also talked to um uh uh people around the turnaround of British cycling, um, and a guy there called Dr. Steve Peters, who was the psychologist who worked on cycling. One of the critical things was some of the athletes really needed a place they could go and talk about issues that may not even be totally about sport that wasn't the organization itself, and do that in a safe way. Um, so so that's why we did that. We've also done that here at fencing. We have a different specific um resource for non-athletes, actually, um, who we found have slightly different needs, uh, particularly around referees and so forth. Um, there's also a referee group um that that looks after that with um uh a group of counselors in the Northeast. Um and and so yeah, it it for me it's about how can we, frankly, cost-effectively, yes, but how can we serve our athletes better? And sometimes knowing the organization has your back on things like that is half the battle. And I heard that from athletes of I don't actually need this, I've got my own therapist, or I'd rather see somebody locally to me, or whatever it is. But I'm really happy you did this, and that was part of it, is is and again, you've heard four or five times now biggest thing, listen to your people. They will tell you what they need. It might not be directly, but they will tell you, Miss Saxon.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, having been a weightlifting athlete, uh having been a prosecutor, uh, and now general counsel uh for USA fencing, do you find as a woman that you've at during those different stages do you find that you had to work harder to prove yourself because you were a woman? Do you find this is still an issue in today's society?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Unfortunately, yes. Uh, but I always love that challenge. When they look at me, I'm about five foot, 140 pounds. Um, pretty small when I walk into a courtroom. I get a lot of loads. And then as I present my case, I get a lot of looks. Uh, so I think it's um number one, having the confidence to do that. And I always knew that um I knew my case file better than anyone else. So you can have all the experience in the world, and you can be this big whatever man, and I'm gonna know my file better than you. And weightlifting was just another aspect of that. Um, you know, when I can outlift the men in my gym, it brought me a lot of joy. So um, I think those two uh, you know, weightlifting gave me a lot of confidence in that regard too. Um, so does that answer your question?
SPEAKER_03:It does. It definitely does. Uh, it's unfortunate to know that it's sort of still an issue uh in today's society. Uh obviously we have much farther to go. Uh, but I I ask it because uh we have a tendency, I think, sometimes to gloss over it and say, look, you know, it's no longer an issue. You know, we see more women in sports, more women in government, uh what have you, whatever the sort of rationalization is. And I think we then are now maybe drifting at times to overlook, no, it's still an issue, uh, technically speaking. And uh in my previous line of work, uh, which was security and law enforcement, there were times uh when I would hear uh fellow uh male colleagues uh make comments say uh a woman in a position of leadership, uh she wasn't serving effectively, right? Um and the comment would be, well, see, she got the position because she was a woman, she shouldn't have been there to begin with. Uh, but then something uh that that didn't sit well with me, but a female colleague of mine, uh who I respected, uh had a good observation and it stuck with me, and I think it articulated what I was feeling emotionally, and it's that, okay, but you do you make that same comment when a man in a position of leadership is not doing well either, right? So again, what's the difference, right?
SPEAKER_01:I I've I was just gonna say, I've had a lot of conversate conversations with leaderships in my past role, uh, where we've had difficult conversations, and oftentimes I have to respond with, would you ask, would you have asked me that if I was a man? To which their face goes in shock, and they don't know how to answer me. But I think it sticks with them maybe next time they're in front of a woman in the in the similar role. So I mean, I was asked last week, are you even a lawyer in my role currently? And I'm like, yes, yes, I am.
SPEAKER_03:Mr. Andrews.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, go ahead. That that's absolutely unacceptable. I'm sorry that happened to you, Jess.
SPEAKER_01:It's okay, Phil. It's okay. I can take it.
SPEAKER_03:Um, Mr. Andrews, uh, what advice would you give emerging leaders seeking to create impacts and resources limited or tradition-heavy environments?
SPEAKER_00:Uh two ears, one mouth, uh, and one brain. Um it'd be the biggest one. Um the you could have to do a lot with your time, a lot of different subjects. Um so I think uh, first of all, you've heard consistently listen, listen, listen, listen. Um doesn't mean you need to find agreement every time. Doesn't need to mean you need to blockate every member, customer, employee, depending on the type of business you're in. Does mean you need to listen. Uh, one of the lessons I've learned over the years is the most most of the answers lie in the people that you're serving, whether that be a customer or a member, they lie there. So, and there's usually talent, there's experience, there's perspective in those people. And that's best done, by the way, in conversation. Yes, surveys are important, they're good, they're great directional uh points. For example, when I worked in uh David Oladija, which is uh a little similar to Equinox or Lifetime here, um, I went and sat at the front desk. I was a regional GM for four uh uh large racquetball clubs. Um or racquet clubs, so they're basically a GM, swimming pool, um, tennis, squash, usually, um, and uh the cafe restaurant type setup. Um and you know, people would never know that I was like literally not even I didn't work at that particular place. I was just serving the members. And the reason I do that is listening, is understanding what those conversations really look like. What what are the it what are the calls and inquiries that are coming through? What are the reasons that we're failing our sales process for that matter? Um, and then I go sit at the cafe, do the second same thing. And it it's the same thing at weightlifting. People were shocked when they you know email our central USAW USAweightlifting.org, and I'd be the one who replied. And it's the same thing. It's listening to your customer or your member in our case. The best time you can do it is in conversation at those events. At, you know, if you're running a retail chain, go to your retail chain, spend time on the shop floor, and make it a habit. Do it once every few months. Time gets away from you, it really does, but it's really important to do. I still do a listening tour where any member can sign up to spend an hour with me in conversation. And it's probably one of the most valuable things I do all year. So that's one is is listen, listen, listen, listen. The answers lie in your people, your employees, yes. Absolutely 100% yes, but for sure your customers, members, people actually do the thing that you are trying to do. Um, and then I would go on one step further than that: progress, not perfection. Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Always understand progress happens in inches. It does not need to always be the big thing. Progress happens step by step. Improve if you improve everything, this is how British cycling changed. Um, if you improve everything by 1%, suddenly you're very much better. Um, and that's you know, it's it's in in sport, sport itself is imperfection. I remember an athlete in weightlifting when I first got there, he said, here's what you understand. Everybody sucks at weightlifting, but some people just suck a little bit less. And he was referring to technique, and it it's it's kind of the same thing in in fencing, in soccer, in hockey. You know, there were gaps in Wayne Gretzky's game in hockey. So it's um, but he's arguably the best of all time. Um, and there was gaps in Puristi Mass's um ability in weightlifting, and he's arguably the best of all time. There's gaps in Lee Kiefer's game in fencing, not much, but there is. She has lost a bat or two, occasionally, very rarely. Um, but again, she's one of, if not the very best, American fence uh f foil fencer of all time. And yet there's it's not perfection, it's progress, progress, progress. And finally, do not ever be afraid as a leader to say the following words. I screwed up. You have no idea how powerful those words are. And I mean, Jess said it meant a lot to hear it, uh, but not just with your employees or with your team, with the people around you. Obviously, you can't screw up every day. That's you're kind of paid to do a job and do it most of the time, right? But it's okay to admit that you'd misjudged. It's okay to admit that you didn't get something right. It's okay to admit that you might have screwed up. That's okay. And it actually gains you trust because people respect it. Again, you can't do it every day, but it's such a respectable thing. So, number one, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. And think about it. Put what this person said together with what this person said. Your job as a leader is to be grand central terminal of information. Number two, progress, not perfection. And number three, don't be afraid to admit when you you didn't do it right.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I have a ton of more questions I would love to ask, but you know, time uh is of the essence, and you all need to move on to uh your your responsibilities. I appreciate uh the insights you all have shared, uh the time you've given me, the audience. Uh thank you, Miss Saxon. Thank you, Mr. Andrews. Uh you're welcome. No, definitely.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Uh a special shout out, obviously, to the fencing community uh in the United States and the world, because there are people listening overseas as well. Uh a little uh remembrance uh to my former coach, Dr. Eugene Homori, uh, who recently passed away. Uh he was a member of the 1956 Hungarian uh Olympic team, won gold, and he defected out of Australia thanks to uh the support of Sports Illustrated back when the Cold War was a thing. Uh but again, thank you, uh, Mr. Andrews, Ms. Axson. To our listeners, thank you for joining us on Brungart Laws Laying At, where we provide a little extra perspective because the devil's always in the details. Please join us on our next episode and invite others to follow along. Give us your feedback and suggestions via the link. Mr. Andrews, Ms. Axon, gratitude.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.