The Longest Mural in the U.S.: A Conversation with Jamar Pierre

Although leadership comes in all shapes and sizes, we tend to focus on the squares, circles, and triangles while overlooking the trapezoids and rhombi. Although artists are profound influential sources of societal change and positive direction, society tends to equate leaders with those who wield power, possess wealth, or enjoy fame. Nonetheless, artists display a unique understanding of their environment and singlehandedly undertake initiatives many would balk at. 

Jamar Pierre is an artist and educator in New Orleans leading the Tchoupitoulas Art Corridor whose mission is to complete what will be the longest mural in the U.S. and provide continuous art education. Jamar leads us through his development as an artist and his singular focus to convey the cultural history of New Orleans through transformation of a concrete flood wall into a visual, colorful tapestry capturing people and events.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

In a world of instant gratification, sound bites, and visual overstimulation art to be easily overshadowed and underappreciated. And it's just not anywhere in leadership is conflated with authority, power, money, and fame, artists are overlooked and undervalued for the positive direction they can provide. Yet it takes a unique, determined, and resourceful individual to transform almost a mile of flood wall into a vibrant, historical, and joyful canvas through years of ancient methodical work. Welcome to Brungart Laws Landing App, where we provide a little extra perspective through conversations with individuals from across the spectrum of society. I'm Maurice Brungart, your host. I enjoy engaging with experienced, knowledgeable, and passionate people for the opportunity it affords to enrich our understanding of the world through their eyes. The more we learn, the more likely we can become better versions of ourselves and guide others towards the same. Today's guest is Jamar Pierre, an artist and educator born and raised in New Orleans. More importantly, he is the catalyst and engine of the CHOPTULUS Art Corridor. Welcome to the program, Jamar.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Thank you. Good morning. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Well, it's a privilege having you here, and I'm grateful you accepted my invitation. Before we get started, if you could share with the audience why anyone in their right mind should live in this city. I mean, the city streets are like the surface of the moon, cratered by potholes. The infrastructure is breaking. You got water mains busting all over the place. The humidity is suffocating. It's vulnerable to hurricanes. Katrina over 20 years ago led to half the population leaving. And the city government right now, it's hundreds of millions of dollars in debt. From your perspective, what would you tell folks out there? Why should you live in New Orleans?

SPEAKER_02 1:56

I have one word. Amazon rainforest. The first Europeans arrived, and this land was called Bobancha, and our indigenous ancestors were here. They noted in a lot of their diaries that this reminded them of the Amazon base. But it did provide a lot of food, a lot of fresh water, a lot of uh good land to grow crops. Um, this was the major port. That's why Vale and Ivorville picked this place. You gotta understand, we are the only uh that I know of place in the United States besides Jamaica that has parishes instead of counties. And we have a Napoleonic law. We're one of the oldest cities in the United States chosen and wars fought over just to have access to the Mississippi River. It's the Mississippi River, it's the river, it's that element of the water, the rivers, um, the Gulf. I grew up grew up hunting, fishing, always told in one. If you starve in Louisiana, you deserve to starve. There's food everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Well, tell us about your upbringing here in the city, you know, starting with the neighborhood you were uh raised in.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

It was weird because, you know, I have two words that describe my life and describe my work leading up to even a chocolate floor wall, and that's urban-rural contrast. Um my people were simple, mostly from the River and Bayou parishes and migrated here, either for work as farmers, uh, carpenter laborers or musicians. And um a lot of my urban experience came from my mom marrying someone who's from the seven where we grew up in Gentili. But even back in the 70s, I was born in the early 70s. People were really into community, uh, really into um going to Lake Punch a train to get their food, going to Bay B Avenue, uh, Shell Beach, Hopedale, um, having turkeys and chickens in their yard. It's like I caught that last little sliver, plus visiting my family in the river and Bayou parishes on the weekends, and for long periods of time during the holidays, growing up hunting and fishing. I got to experience that rural experience of Louisiana and also the uh the city life in New Orleans, being in a French quarter, being inspired by the music, the brass band music, the jazz, the carnival Indians, the Creole food that tells a story of the urban and rural life of Louisiana. So being connected to the food, the music growing up, I first was in theater and music, like most students. I went to an arts magnet school called Gentle Terrace on Mirabu, close to Brother Martin. And it was a public school, but it was an arts magnet school, primary school, uh, where I first they thought I was special led, then they realized I was talented in the arts for the game. But I did always draw, and that's why they thought I was special led. Or I'm sorry, I'm not using the correct political term. They thought I was special needs because I would space out and draw all the time. And believe it or not, I wasn't always good at drawing. I didn't start drawing for hours every day until I was like in high school. I would draw so much until my hand hurt, and I was so determined to get good, like the guys were in junior high school, but I was a little bit late. I started drawing with a pen and got rid of the eraser to make myself loosen up and learn how to sketch. And I would draw every day, every day for hours. From probably elementary school till high school, but I didn't really feel comfortable and gain my confidence with drawing until high school, which is a totally different technique and ball game than painting.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Hmm. Other than being self-taught in this sense, did you ever have any formal education when it came to art uh that really had an impact on you, a particular teacher?

SPEAKER_02 6:43

One thing that was good about before charter schools, we had New Orleans public schools always had art. So I would take art classes, learn perspective, learn the principles of design and drawing. But I didn't take uh formal painting class. I did painting, sculpture, and printmaking at Southern University under New Orleans, which really was something that changed my life. I got a chance. That's why the mentorship started. Um I was working under Ron Bayeshe, Dr. Jack Jordan, Charlie Johnson. I met a lot of other artists and peers that changed my life. Um my first internship was in my early 20s, going to Southern University of New Orleans. Uh, Ron Bechet introduced me to Jerome Smith, who ran the Tambourina Fan Club, who was also a freedom writer, civil rights leader. But he his thing was if you come work in our community, you have to have purpose. And it was a perfect match because I went from doing graffiti and street art to doing it legally from the city, because in the Tremay area, which is the oldest black neighborhood in America, they believed that art and murals, and of course music and masking Indians were the way to pass down the culture, celebrate resilience, to keep the culture pure and authentic to be passed on for generations to come. So murals and painting are a part of that. I was taught that at an early age in my early 20s. And through meeting Jerome Smith, I met Douglas Red, who at the time was working with Jazz Inherit's Festival and about to open up I Shea Culture Art Center with Carol Bieber. Doug said, we need you to start doing the banners for the Tambarina fan for Super Sunday and Mighty Dry Clay Barn. And I'm getting real busy. And he also started letting me help him uh do set designs and work in the art department at Jazz Fest to create a lot of the things for the Congress Square 10. So I've been that that was my first big experience as a professional artist working with the Taverinian fan club and New Orleans Jazz Inheritus Festivals and the early 90s.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

When you mentioned traditions being passed on and information being passed on generation and generation, out of curiosity, how far back can you trace your roots here in the city and in Louisiana?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Um, well, I know my grandfather, who was uh from St. Francisville, he's part indigenous, and he was a farmer. He went to the military and ended up following some relatives to New Orleans in the 30s. My grandmother was from Napoleonville, grew up on Bailey Fouche at the Himalayan plantation. They met after he got out of the war and had my parents that grew up in the Cali or Project. So all my grandparents on the Pierre side and the Perkins side are from the rural areas. So a lot of my influence and the way we grew up eating and talking and having faith and treating each other was based on a lot of these kind of uh simple life, simple man, rural principles, which made it rough for me to kind of grow up in the city, going to public school, hanging in the quarters. It was weird for me, it was fast-paced. And I guess through art and music and food, I've been able to find that balance and be inspired by it. The tension, the joy, the pain, the sunshine and rain.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Um briefly, uh, for the uninitiated uh listeners, you know, what is a Mardi Gras Indian? What is Congo Square?

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Um, well, Congo Square, which was one of my favorite sections to paint because I knew a lot about it and worked with a lot of culture barriers that have uh interest in that area, was where our ancestors could go on Sunday and practice their uh ceremonial traditions, in some cases hiding it through Catholicism, like uh the voodoo and the condom blade, or for instance, copper writer in Brazil, as they did, kind of mixing of European cultures with the African traditions, which is how you get jazz through those West African bamboo rhythms. Uh, also the traditions of a lot of the food, the ogre that was bought here to create the bumbo, the kala, which was a rice filler and a praline, which a lot of the women used to sell in the 1800s. Because Congo Square is where Armstrong Park is now, which borders the rampart of the Vu Karay. You had the river right there in the port, which is a major slave port, so it made sense to have a lot of plantations there because of the Code Noir, they were allowed to practice their traditions on those days. Matter of fact, one of my favorite characters on the wall, whose story should inspire everyone, is Rose Nicole, who during that time when our ancestors were practicing those traditions at Congo Square, so Carla and Coffee brought us freedom from slavery and her husbands and started French market coffee.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Okay. And tell us again, what is a Mardi Gras Indian? Again, for those listening.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

I mean, a lot of our ancestors mixed and married with indigenous people, whether it was on the plantations and rural areas, but really New Orleans was rural during this time. Um there's a lot of similarities. There's a lot of different stories that have been told and passed on through the ancestors of why we have that connection and that ancestry with indigenous people. Um trace that back. And we pay homage to those ancestors by creating these elaborate regalias and coming out on Super Sunday and Mardi Gras Day. And it's a celebration, it's also warrior culture. But now, and I have to relate what happened in Congo Square to what happened in Brazil with Capoeira. I have to relate the carnival Indians to what happened in New York with the games with early hip-hop with breakdance. So we're gonna see who's the prettiest, prettiest. And that's fighting with violence.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

It was also part of the resilience, part of segregation and civil rights, because we weren't allowed to always be in a parade unless maybe we were pulling a mule or a flambeau character. Um, we started our own traditions, our own culture, just like most people do in Louisiana.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Look look looking back regarding the the Mardi Gras Indians, Jamar, and also art you looking back over time, uh what misconceptions uh did you perceive people had of this side of New Orleans? Uh the graffiti on the walls, uh the Mardi Gras Indians when they come out. Um what what did you ever pick up on that perhaps people were not really seeing?

SPEAKER_02 14:54

The traditions, the traditions being passed down, the story, the connection, the cultural placemaker definitely. Uh it was realized because it was almost lost after Katrina. And believe it or not, Tremay on HBO really bought that home. Um I did some work with them and I love that show. Me and my family used to watch it at the Sunday dinner at the church every Sunday, even with my grandparents where they passed. That you know, the Saints won a Super Bowl. That's when I decided I need to preserve this culture more. It's uh it's uh and when you travel to other places doing residencies and projects, you realize all these are Rosley back to New Orleans. Sometimes people in other places love our culture more than we do. We take it for granted. And the black masking Indians are passing that tradition down so much with the youth, teaching them how to sew, how to mask, how to sing the songs. Um, it it really is something that mixed those Congo West African traditions with the native indigenous traditions. And um, we called it carnival Indians back in the day. Now it's black masking Indians because we created our own culture as farnable. A lot of the ancestors said we didn't feel like we were part of Mardi Gras because of segregation, so they called it carnival, especially downtown.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Um going back and returning our focus on you as an artist, um what when did you just actually first realize this was more than just a hobby for you? You know, was it when you were uh in adolescence as you entered into the Southern University of New Orleans? Uh and and I asked this because again, you know, we have plenty of folks out there uh who are um they are emerging artists, no, or they feel that that sort of initiative. Uh but in a world where art is not viewed upon as a way of paying the bills, um, some people perhaps put that aside. And you know, when when did it make sense for you? No, this is what I want to do.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Part of it was, you know, um community. That experience of working with all of those people in the 90s, like Tambourini Fan Club, I Shake Culture Art Center, New Orleans, Jazz and Heritage. That was a real big turning point for me. That's when I realized how important our culture was, and we have to pass it down through all. And murals are a way to get your name out there as an artist. I realized that in the early 90s. Um, and it for me was not worth it taking a risk anymore painting graffiti legally because graffiti and street art wasn't respected really in New Orleans until Bansky came, which was a good thing. But back then, all of police officers would tell us in our community, we thought it was like gang-related street stuff. They didn't see the art in it. It wasn't like California and New York, where graffiti was looked at as a contemporary art form. Um, another thing that happened, there was a uh artist at the Contemporary Art Center, because we were always in the art world as teenagers, you know, volunteering the galleries and working with the Contemporary Art Center for Arts for Art's sake. And I remember this lady took out these uh graffiti art we did on some buildings, and she painted, started doing a series of paintings of the buildings with the graffiti on it, and then one of a couple of them was mine and my friends, and she was selling the paintings for$50,000.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

And then right after that, I saw the movie that Jeffrey Wright did of John Michelle Basquiat with Jeffrey Wright and uh David Bowden. And you know, the whole thing of seeing uh African-American artists like Boschiat and people in my community who were with Yaya, Young Artist, Young Aspiration. My peers like Lionel Milton, Terrence Osborne, growing up around that, having mentors like Richard Thomas, you know, Ron Beige, Bruce Bryce, all of these people who formed and shaped, even my father, who knew all the jewelry makers at Congress of Square when it first started, it was Kwindu. He was an artist at Koindu and a musician in the culture in the 60s and 70s. So I think it was like meant for me to pass that on to the next generation. It's like a triple effect, a domino effect. This was the universe planned this for me. I didn't have to force it. Of course, when you're young, the ego tells you you have to force it as you get old and wise, and you start meeting artists from all over the world, because I've done residencies all over the world. That was the best education I ever got. School teach you techniques, fine art techniques. But the business size and the patience and the resilience, you have to learn from experience. New Orleans is a resilient place. You have to be resilient to be here for 300 years. You know, when you look at not just our indigenous and African ancestors who had to go through a lot of disenfranchisement, but you look at the immigrants, the Irish, Italian, the German immigrants who came here, who we all made this place a big gumbo, lived off it, the Acadians. And that resilience to live through the hurricanes through the swamps is the same resilience that uh the ancestors in Central America and South America deal with in the rainforest. Traveling to those countries and doing residencies there and traveling the world shows me how resilience not only deals with cultural placemaking, but it also kind of relates to cultural cultural change is also climate change. You look at the masters before photography, how the only way we can preserve that culture through climate change. Is through art, through murals and paintings and teaching and passing it on. On that note, I got to do that. Katrina bought that to Katrina bought that to I always go back to Katrina. That's the turning point for a lot of us.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah. On that note, uh, you know, as I reflect back on my particular upbringing in the city, um, so art in elementary school was like an extracurricular activity. We had a class for it. Um, but again, it it was never, I never got the impression it was treated on an equal footing, like with math or science, right? Or history. Um then when I went to high school, yeah, I I don't recall uh any uh art class. There was none of that. Um, I mean, I got a solid education, I'm not complaining about that. But the direction I'm going in uh to ask you, it's uh from your upbringing and now currently from what uh you're uh exposed to, do we continue to make a mistake of how we treat art within the educational preparation of our kids? And that uh we are perhaps subconsciously biased that we don't present it on equal footing with the other courses.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

It's to the point now. I you grew up in rural Louisiana where a lot of my family still live. You know, there's less options for the that kind of cultural placemaking to in a cultural economy. There's no cultural economy. You work at the plant, you work on the shrimp boat, um, you become a police officer, a nurse, or teacher. Here, if you grew up, that's why we have all these wonderful programs like Girls Play Trumpet 2, uh Roots of Music, Yams, Chapatula's Art Corridor, all the programs that I've been involved in, young audiences, yeah, yeah. I could go down the list. These not only myself, but these young students from all walks of life were getting an opportunity to work with cultural bearers. For example, I was in Townsend in the Arts. I went to Arts Magnet School. My parents were into music, and my grandparents and parents supported music and art. My dad was a musician and a visual artist. My aunt was a visual artist. I'm growing up around people like Alan Tucson, Ellis Marcellus, Wanda Ruzan. Like, these are the people I'm interacting with in my community all the time in elementary primary school. So for me, there was never a doubt that I could travel the world, make a living as a professional artist.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

And when I got to Tremay and worked at Tremay Center, which had me in the fan, that's when I started meeting the Andrews family and the Henry family. And that just took it to the next level. Even getting a chance to collaborate with them to this day on art. And so if you're exposed to it, there's infinite possibilities when people don't say, and we do have these stereotypes about starving artists, but you have to look at all the successful artists in Louisiana. Music is no different than culinary or visual arts. And there's also plenty of starving lawyers, so yeah, but that's a personality thing, and that's where I go into a deep meditation, spiritual manifestation, vortex thing. Yes, you have friends and family who are gonna say you can't do it, but most people are projecting on you, but they feel like they can't. So once I started just dealing with people who did with the different vibrations, that's believing in self and believing the infinite possibilities, that's when I really started to flourish too, so far as success and accomplishing goals. Just treating people right and with respect is something I focus on every day. Um, you asked me earlier why people would live here. It's the resiliency. The first Europeans said it was like the Amazon base. You gotta deal with mosquitoes, snakes, alligators, levees, flooding. We learn how to not only just live off the land, you know. We had swamp the table before form the table. We learn how to build up on the land. Some of it sinks because it's built in a hole. Anything along the Esplanade Ridge or the Mississippi Ridge is gonna be high real estate, high ground through redlining, like in the indigenous community and Latino communities and disenfranchised communities all over the world. A lot of times brown and black people are put in places that are undesirable. But that's what sometimes a lot of, we also lose culture. We also lose the music, the food, the recipes, the visual arts. So that's why the visual art can be archived in another way to make sure that does not happen. In 2018, I was uh selected to be the official artist for the trientennial when we celebrated our 300 years. And through that residency, I was working with the Hellas Foundation and Longview House Cigar and doing a residency there, where we did a lot of amazing art classes and art shows and murals around the city. That was the same time when we started and came up with the idea to do the Chapatulas flood wall mirror. The project started from a simple idea. We had this long flood wall running through the most historical parts of New Orleans. And instead of being something people drove past without noticing, we saw opportunity to turn into a visual timeline of the city. Not just decoration, but something that tells a story of New Orleans in a way people can actually see and experience and feel every day.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Now, when you first started, and by first started, I mean you're standing at the wall and you're gonna lay down the first coat of paint. Where did you imagine it going from there?

SPEAKER_02 29:00

I thought about the official tricetinal painting I did call resilience. I named it resilience for a purpose. You have to be resilient to live here like we were talking about 300 years plus. We have so many ethnicities, cultures, architecture from the architecture, the food, the music, carnival. It's just so much. Even the opera houses in the 1800s, the shipping, the agriculture, it's so much. I had 100 paintings in Brazil. It was in the Library of Congress, and that piece got a lot of national and international press, but a hundred images depicting New Orleans history was not enough. This mural could be the longest continuous historical mural in America and get the Guinness Book of World Records, but even with a mile, or if I extend it to a mile and a half, you can't tell all our culture and history and everything that happened here. We are the cultural hub of the United States.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

How do you end up selecting some of your images for this mural?

SPEAKER_02 30:10

I collaborate with other artists, cultural bearers, people from different communities, whether it's from my community or the Irish, Italian community. I do a lot of research. I don't try to rush doing a design, try to do kind of like a scientist would do. Like cross-reference stuff, do a hypothesis, get different perspective of not just the uh uh the aesthetics that I'm gonna lay out the composition, but the mechanics of the story. Um, it is important to tell those untold stories or uh tell the stories of the untold heroes, but be diverse and fair in everything that we do.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Tell us about sort of the logistical side of this, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Um and as you got started, uh well, see, that goes back to something you said, that stereotype.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

I had to learn the hard way. I didn't know this in my early 20s. That stereotype of starving artists, because it was not always easy for me back then, that came from artists. It was something I'm teaching every day in my because Chop Tool is our court, it's not just a mirror. We have programming where we teach. I take my 30 years as an art educator and bring it to this project to help emerging young emerging artists. We think that the talent and the technique and the painting and the skills is gonna think get us there. Talk about the technical side, the behind the scenes work, the permit, the insurance.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

That's 60 to 80 percent. As soon as I had as soon as I accepted the fact that even with a board and a team and hiring people to do freelancer work with me, that I still have to do that. When I accepted that, that's when things became very progressive and successful. So the reason why sometimes people have that stereotype about the starving artists, and they don't teach that in class, in school, in our community, in our churches, and our families, is because they don't see artists doing that part. But the artists that do that part or have someone to do it, do become successful. And this next generation has a chance and witness that more. I was lucky back then to be in a small community to witness that, but now they're being exposed to a lot of people with all these wonderful cultural arts programming we have in New Orleans.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

How many years have you been working on the corridor so so far?

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Seven years. Okay. We started up as New Orleans International Mirrorless LLC. And then three years ago it became Chapatulas Art Corridor, Father One Secret. Our website's Chapatulas Artcorridor.org. Chapatullah is an indigenous word. Um we really wanted to show that indigenous history a lot because you know that's our First Nations people, and they taught us how to live off the land and naked habitat.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Has it been uh what are some of the challenges you've faced over these years? Again, on that behind the curtain uh aspect of it.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Um, just um, you know, something I've accepted that that behind the scenes work, that technical stuff, uh scheduling with all the artists, the young artists, sending out contracts, scheduling with um making sure we have people that's reliable, have insurance, safety. There's a lot of safety things we have to address. Um we bring out a company with big tanks of water. We have to pressure wash the wall. Uh communicating consistently with the Army Corps Engineer and State, which is the Levy Board Protection Authority, to make sure we're paying and getting those permits and renewal and being in compliance throughout the year. That's what it takes.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

And you're obviously now on a on a roll, but at the beginning, uh, what were some of the reactions of government officials uh, you know, uh when you were trying to paint on the wall?

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Well, there was never something spoken out loud, but as you can imagine, like you said, in our community, art is not looked at as a business. So I believe I did open up the floodgates, literally, open up the door for other companies and artists to get these permits now because they don't know and understand it from that business from a safety perspective. Um, I found out and still found it out, many artists don't have insurance or LLC. And it's how you approach your visual conversation and your storytelling and your art, how you make a community, how you get community buy-in. Um, you know, being an art educator and being an art teacher, where all ages I always had to make sure I use art, not just for therapy, for cultural placemaking. So everything I did had to be kind of safe. If you paint about music, it's safe. You paint about most New Orleans culture, it's safe. Of course, there's some things that can be a little bit radical in the 1800s, like slavery and reconstruction and civil war and the Battle of New Orleans. You have to address those historical components. Um by playing it safe and by not being too militant and having the insurance, the paperwork, the legal stuff in order, they realized, wow, artists are real business. It took them a while to give us the permits, but they end up doing it. They knew we were serious. We had to prove to them and sign contracts that we follow all these safety rules. Most artists don't think of wearing a safety vest or putting out safety cones or cleaning the wall properly, using non-flammable paints, using high UV paints. Sometimes I've seen artists try to use aerosol or house paint to paint a mural. So you have to know the professional side of that and how to make it archivic and safe.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Um, where did you experience perhaps any resistance or pushback?

SPEAKER_02 37:02

I think it's uh just something in society. People, because music is keen here, jazz was born in New Orleans, uh and so is food. I think that we're living in a new times now where people are understanding that art, visual art and murals, because they're popping up everywhere in New Orleans, and I'm so excited to see them. It's very important. We should take this serious, we should look at this. Right? Yeah, it was all done with music and food here. So that's where the resilience came at, that stereotype of starving artists, artists don't handle their business, they're not responsible. That could it could come from that, those stereotypes.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Um I'm gonna digress just momentarily for and you know what you're working on, it's it's a uh visual project. No, and how would one try to communicate this to someone who's visually impaired, the blind? How do we make art in that way accessible uh to those that have lost that sense of perception?

SPEAKER_02 38:17

So um that's ironic, you're bringing that up. We have one of our graduate students from Xabers doing an intern with us right now, creating a timeline of the mural, a virtual tour with audio and visual. So if you have hearing disabilities or visual disabilities, you can still experience the mural. I'm sure in the future there'll be a way to make it embrae. But yes, we think about that diversity and inclusion and everything. It's a large outdoor mural.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

And even people who are not uh physically impaired, we always encourage them to take photos and you could get a good view in the mural from the safe sidewalk across the street. We do tours all the time now. So accessibility is part of our mission.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

What kind of uh attention that you unexpected attention in a positive way that you've gotten about the mural?

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Uh the local support, because our first corporate sponsor was national, it was at the Walmart Foundation. Oh, Walmart, interesting. Was uh through a national because a lot of times in the community you might have access to the local things, even at the Walmart level, but this was on an even bigger level. So I started wondering, and this is when we were at LLC, and we had Ephesus of Grace and NPN as our fiscal age before became a problem in C3. So I started seeing that maybe I have to depend on international and national funding for this project. So every time we get someone locally, especially in Orleans Parish, is always exciting.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

And in terms of the timeline on the mural, where are you at right now in terms of uh representing New Orleans story?

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Yeah, so we are currently, and this will all be done by June because it gets too hot, working on the 1800 section of Italianola, where a lot of in the 1880s, when a lot of Italian immigrants came here, Mother Cabrini came here, she's on there during during and inspired by the Hennessy Trials, when they lynched a bunch of his Sicilians.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Well, uh we're finishing up at midday day.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

And the anniver the anniversary for that was just a couple of weeks ago, March 14th.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

For the Hennessy Trials?

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Yeah, uh, when uh they lynched the uh Italians downtown.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah. Okay, yeah, and ironically, we're also working on uh Irish Nola. We're finishing up that. We got some young apprentices helping us with that this weekend. Irish Nola. Uh I saw that they were celebrating a lot of the Irish dish diggers too doing St. Patrick's, so that was good timing. Uh, we just completed St. Louis Cemetery 1, 2, and 3. Uh the French Creole Opera House, and um, we're doing some last touches on Edmund Day Day, who was a Haitian free man of color and first classical composer in the 1800s during reconstruction. And um, and then we have one more design we finish it up and have to start before the summer, and that's the black masking Indians.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Huh. And how much further do you have to go, obviously?

SPEAKER_02 42:14

I would say we're at about 30-35%. This is a Miami project that can't be rushed.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

And, you know, it is labor-intensive and it's not super, super treat, but we try to give some in-kind services and labor love when we can. It's just a lot, it takes a village, uh, especially when it's programming involved. And yeah, we we have to give the community also a chance to have buy-in to tell these stories and sponsor each second. So that's another reason why it's best to take your time. You know, do you think about the safety and the quality of the work you want?

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Not like you're doing this, it is definitely not meant to be street art or street art or illustrative or graphic design style. This is, we want most of it, less is lettering, to be more of a fine art painterly style.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

At the risk of sounding fatalistic, do you have any contingency plans? Because you're leading this, um, and you have an entire support mechanism with a board and whatnot. Uh, but one never knows what's gonna happen as you turn the corner. Um do you have a plan in place? Should something happen to you, how the project should continue?

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yes, that's what uh Francis was coming at. The ones we've been working with for years and continue to work with, the new ones with me, um having systems in place. Is something that's definitely, definitely our priority.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Taking these experiences, now tell us about your role as an arts educator and a mentor in the programs you participate in with the city's youth and what you've learned from that and what you see in the next generation and what not only New Orleans should know, but other people uh in terms of arts and education.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

I believe embracing technology is important. And um people of a younger generation, they love technology. It's a good way to get them excited about art. That's why I feel that the virtual tour for the floor wall is important. Working with the young artists and teaching them there's infinite possibilities. You can do every style, you can work in every community, you can use every medium, and you can learn the rules and then break it. But also have a purpose besides you put the we back into it, the community when you can't. Not only is it gonna feel good. Art was always meant to be not always personalized, it's a balance. It has to be something that is bigger than us.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

What do you find some artists do mistakenly?

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Um try to label and judge themselves, just they just need to have compassion and love themselves and realize there's no right or wrong way. If you decide to do art as a hobby or for just to pass down traditions, and you not don't want to monetize it or commercialize it to make an income because it takes the fun out of you, that doesn't mean you're wrong. Um, and also realize you can do both. There's a balance and there's infinite possibilities. I believe creating art starts with confidence, starts with patience and resilience, lots of patience. And once you have that, you kind of slowly takes a while, but you grow into creating your own rules, your own styles and comfort zone.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

What would you tell today's youth that are fearful of artificial intelligence replacing them as artists?

SPEAKER_02 46:53

It's so obvious. I would say learn anarchist analytical skills. Um, I've worked with some artists who've told me that, and it's because they mostly only work digital. If they if AI, I don't believe it can duplicate the hand strokes and the mistakes that you can make with painting and drawing and a log. If you're using Procreator Adobe, I can see how you may feel that way. I would say do both because when I say AI art, it looks like AI art. And anyone that's like buys highbrow or any highbrow art collector is gonna know the difference.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

What about preserving um like this current project? Uh, the mural, uh, the Chopatulus art corridor, because we don't know again what's gonna happen 20 years, 30 years down the road. Do you have an agreement with the city or with those sections of the wall that might be privately owned, that they stay there or that there be some contingency?

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Um not probably owned. The state owns the whole port. Perfect. Which um Treeport, New Orleans, it's the state, not the city.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Us having a uh us by us having nonprofit, a public entity, and we've already talked with the state about all the qualifications. It sounds like we need to start making a main street historical district. With all of this in place, setting up a trust, they haven't we have a maintenance plan in place. There's an easy way to uh make sure that they're preserved for years and generations to come, just like the the mural at the train station in Loyola. Wasn't that like one of those World War II murals? Up murals, I believe so. Um, not just make sure that the mural is preserved and maintained for generations to come, but program and neighborhood revitalization, because neighborhood revitalization is our end goal. The mural is just the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Um I had mentioned to you uh prior to us uh talking uh here during this episode, you know, the tendency sometimes to view artists as uh I mean they're valued and but placed perhaps in that category of okay, you've entertained my mind, you've entertained uh my perceptions here, um, and that has a value in and of itself, and and I don't use entertainment as a superficial description, but what I do see is the danger of overlooking the artist, him or herself, as a conduit of information, and that is, you know, as I've come to briefly know you, uh you and I'm sure many other artists, the musicians, um, y'all y'all have your fingertips on uh the rhythm of life here in the city, and that would be the same elsewhere in other cities. Um you have a very acute sense of what's going on. And do you find that you all are overlooked as a means of understanding uh what direction, say, a city administration should move in uh prior to taking certain actions? Uh, because again, you you have your your hand on the pulse, uh, you you know what's going on, what would resonate with the community, what would even make sense economically. And so you again could be a wealth of information uh for public officials before they start spending taxpayer dollars on one project or another.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

Yes, that's why measurable outcomes are important, making a difference in the community, doing more than talking is very important for that reason. And then showing approof and documenting after some.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

But do you find uh public officials turn to you at times? Hey, Jamar, uh, we're thinking of doing this, or whether it's you, but you know, your colleagues in the community, you know, we're thinking of doing this. Uh, what you know, what do you think of this idea?

SPEAKER_02 51:47

I mean, in 30 years, I might have had a few that asked me to that. Um I've done projects with the Morio administration and the Niger administration. So that's the only time I've really had a chance to experience that, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

And how do you and what's your outlook for uh our up-and-coming artist? I mean, is there still room for them? Uh is there plenty of avenues for growth? Is it a saturated field?

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Um, I think educating, involving the community in your work is something that there's room for, and something we need to consider and encourage them to grow in. Um how to connect with everyone of all ages, all demographics, all socioeconomical backgrounds, breaking the stereotypes. Some artists say, Well, that's not my job to do that. Um, there are anomalies where some artists get to just do me, me, me with their work and they're able to make a living that way. And there's no one is right or wrong. It's infinite possibilities.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

What do you hope people feel when they see your work?

SPEAKER_02 53:17

I hope they see a large outdoor historical museum when they see themselves, they see their ancestors no matter who they are. Um, they see that they deserve to have art and history, uh, even if they don't go to a museum or gallery.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

And how do you think cities should think differently when it comes to public art?

SPEAKER_02 53:44

It's the identity of the community and the city. It shows care, um, especially for a tourist city like New Orleans with so much tourism dollars coming in.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

And bringing this back full circle, uh where do you see New Orleans headed?

SPEAKER_02 54:06

You know, I have to say I don't quite know. I I do see a lot of progression in the arts, especially with murals, cultural placemaking, people being conscious of making sure that cultural barriers are in place. I'm one of the surveys I'm doing and creating and and want to create even as a mirror on a chopper tool, this footwall mural is no le futurism. This is a question and a dialogue that I will be having with the youth artists for the next year or two, and have them help me figure that out.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

And for those that have never been to the city or they've passed through as a tourist, um what would be your reasons to give them? This is a place you could come settle in, you could come, you know, thrive in, uh, you could retire in, depending where they are in their lives. Uh what would be the reasons, the motivations you would give them? Hey, you should come here, not there.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Great food, nice weather in the spring. Uh just what I love about New Orleans too is that within 10, 15 minutes drive, you could be out in the beautiful countryside with big cypress trees and oak trees. Um, you can have the cake and either too. You can have that urban road experience. And if you don't like the cold, that's another reason.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Um, Jamar, are there any last thoughts that you would like to share with the audience? Whether it's about yourself, it's about the Charpatulis Art Corridor, the city.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

Uh no. I mean, thank you for having me. I mean, the website is chapatulis artcorridor.org, and my info's on there if anyone has any questions or was interested in being involved in any kind of way as a sponsor. Um, and right now we're just we got a program we're doing with youth apprenticeship artists and they're actually young adults, and as they grow as professionals, we want to be part of that.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Well, Jamar, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us, your experiences. Uh, to our listeners, thank you for joining us on Brungart Laws Lanyat, where we provide a little extra perspective because the devil's always in the details. Please invite others to listen. Give us your feedback. Hey, Jamar, again, it has been a privilege. Gratitude. Thank you.