From Global Strategy to Local Impact: A Conversation with Mark Wells

For years now, transnational activities are increasingly originating at the local level. Foreign relations in furtherance of economic interests are no longer the sole purview of the diplomatic functions of the national government or its embassies abroad. In today's current geopolitical and technological climate, local and state governments are rightfully motivated to be their own advocates on the global stage proactively pursuing opportunities beneficial to their residents rather than await for invitations facilitated at the national level.

Sharing his insights regarding the advancement of foreign policy objectives through traditional diplomatic engagements and furtherance of local interests in the international arena is Mark Wells. A former career member of the U.S. Senior Foreign Service, Mark previously served as Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary in the Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs and held senior diplomatic postings across Latin America and the Middle East, including as Deputy Chief of Mission in Colombia and Peru. Now Director of Global Trade and Investment at the Oklahoma Department of Commerce, Mark leads efforts to attract foreign investment and expand the state’s international economic footprint. 

From navigating complex international environments to attracting major investment at the state level, this conversation offers a practical look at how global dynamics translate into real-world impact at home.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Global influence is no longer exercised solely through embassies and national governments. It is increasingly shaped by how regions compete, collaborate, and position themselves in a rapidly shifting economic landscape. As supply chains realign, strategic industries re-emerge, and investment flows become more selective, the line between diplomacy and economic development continues to blur. What does it mean to operate at that intersection, where global strategy meets local execution, and where decisions made across borders ultimately determine jobs, growth, and long-term resilience at home? Welcome to Brungart Laws Lanyette, where we provide a little extra perspective through conversations with individuals from across the spectrum of society. I'm Maurice Brungart, your host. I enjoy engaging with experienced, knowledgeable, and passionate people for the opportunity it affords to enrich our understanding of the world through their eyes. The more we learn, the more likely we can become better versions of ourselves and guide others towards the same. Today's guest is Mark Wells. He was a career member of the U.S. Senior Foreign Service, where he previously served as Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary in the Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs and held senior diplomatic postings across Latin America and the Middle East, including as Deputy Chief of Mission in Colombia and Peru. Mark is now Director of Global Trade and Investment at the Oklahoma Department of Commerce, where he leads efforts to attract foreign investment and expand the state's international economic footprint. Welcome to the program, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Thank you very much for having me, Maurice.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Well, you are Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary, Western Hemisphere Department of State. A very prestigious uh and responsible position. And now you ended up in the Dust Bowl of America. You know, explain to our audience how that happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yeah, right. Uh the PDAS uh or principal deputy assistant secretary of role uh certainly has a lot of syllables in it. Uh I think the more syllables you get, the more uh of the difficult work that you have to do in one of those organizations. Um yeah, I was essentially the I would describe myself to outsiders as a type of chief operating officer of a bureau that uh managed 52 posts and consulates in the Western Hemisphere, as well as let's call it 350 employees uh domestically. So managing not only the helping with the policy team, but also managing the administrative and executive team. So um there's a lot of responsibility, a lot of mentoring and uh senior recruitment uh leadership for the sections, the uh deputy chiefs of missions, and the chiefs of missions. So um your reference to the Dust Bowl is uh pretty historic. Uh I'm in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It's my hometown. Uh we were not part of the Dust Bowl uh that is on the western side of the state. And it is kind of important because uh Oklahoma has two big cities and lots of uh rural areas that uh where we have agriculture and whatnot. And so the the history of Tulsa is is a bit famous as the oil capital of the world uh in the early 1900s into the 1920s. So we've got the most modern or the most uh representative Art Deco architecture in our downtown, uh, but also uh the scene of a pretty horrific uh race uh massacre. I'm actually speaking to you today from a uh a tech hub that has been built uh in the area um uh in a in a renovated arts district that um does celebrate uh and commemorate what happened here, but also looks forward to uh a future uh filled with uh uh technology uh as well as thinking about all the social issues, not only with black Americans, but also with uh the first Americans or the in uh Indian tribes that um are a really important part of our society here. So it is a great uh transition. I feel like I am taking all of my skill set from uh that I learned over 30 years in Washington and coming back to my hometown and my home state and being able to apply those uh skills to uh what's next here for Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Well, we have a few things in common. Um my father was born and raised partially in Oklahoma, uh in a small town called Maysville, which is near Lindsay, and then that's a little near uh Norman and whatnot. Um his parents uh sent him down well to New Orleans to obtain a Catholic high school education, um, at Holy Crush High School. And um also in terms of uh some commonalities, um, he went to University of Texas for his graduate studies to pursue um a specialty in Latin American history, and he became ultimately a professor in uh Latin American affairs and a Columbianist. So that there's a certain similarity here. You're from Oklahoma, my dungeons, uh you were responsible for foreign policy uh with Latin America and other areas in the Western Hemisphere, and that was also his uh expertise. Uh so and how did you transition out of Oklahoma or what sparked your interest uh growing up to then seek out a career with the Foreign Service?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Well, that is a uh it's an interesting question. Um I I have an older brother who uh left early on. He's older than I am. He started a career in Washington and around the world. Um, I wanted to pursue that. Um I felt though that I needed to have I graduated from Oral Roberts University, which is in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It's an evangelical college uh here, and uh they uh had a government program there. I took uh the government major and then decided uh somebody gave me a piece of advice. If you want to work in Washington, you have to be in Washington. So uh my wife and I packed up the uh everything we owned in a small U-Hall and uh with$600, and we moved to Washington, D.C. And I went to George Washington University, and there over the next two years I got a degree in international relations with uh an emphasis on economics, international economics, Latin America policy, and national security policy. Um during the summers between the summer between those two years of study, I got an internship on the Mexico desk. Uh, this would be 1994. And while I was there for that 10-week internship, um I got hired by an ambassador who was just assigned to work on this new idea of Bill Clinton's called the Summit of the Americas. And this was Bill Clinton's reset with the region to try to uh start a new era in US Latin America relations. Uh just incidentally, this ambassador looked at my very, very thin resume. I did not go beyond one page, but he saw the Oral Roberts at the bottom and he said, Oh, you're from Tulsa. I was born in Tulsa, and it was it was a pretty neat moment. We went on to become pretty close. He was a great mentor of mine, and I ultimately was sent by the State Department to deliver his eulogy in Tulsa about 15 years later. So uh you get great relationships uh around this type of work. So I I essentially started as a civil servant on the Summit of the Americas process and was there for four years.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Did you have any uh international uh experience, uh even if it was just traveling before you joined the Foreign Service?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

You know, very little coming out of Oklahoma, but I will say that the uh Oral Roberts University is an international school. Uh it's probably got, I'll guess, 25% uh international students, uh, a lot of them from uh Africa, many from Latin America. And uh the next our next door neighbor, when I was very young, invited my father to accompany him on a missions trip to Central America. And so we, no fooling, drove in a car from Tulsa to Managua one summer in 1974. I would not advise anyone to do that today, but we spent uh a month driving around all of these villages in Latin America and Mexico and all of the Central American countries. I am sure that that affected me and influenced me and gave me some uh sense uh that there were other people out there besides Oklahomans. Uh and I I took another trip uh just with my parents on a vacation to Munich once and visited the Dachau prison camp and that uh that really, or concentration camp, and that really affected me as to the importance and the gravity of the things that we do uh in uh internationally and you know how the United States uh played a role in uh uh liberating Europe in World War II, and it just sort of uh imbued me with a sense of of duty. And I think that those two uh experiences really impacted me and set me on my course.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Well, the commonalities do not cease. My father, after he graduated from uh University of Texas, and he had chosen to go to Columbia to write his dissertation. Uh so this is the uh late 60s. He traveled by bus all the way through Central America down to Panama uh with you know his suitcase and a typewriter, because back then there were no laptops, and then boarded a plane from Panama into Colombia because he can't cross the Darien Gap, at least uh not at that time. Um with a typewriter. Exactly. Uh so uh I just find that uh serendipitous, so to say. Um quick uh uh digression here. Do you find the Foreign Service spends enough dedicated attention to recruiting from you know states like Oklahoma, the Midwest, farming communities?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with it. There is this uh leftover phrase about us being uh pale male and Yale. Um I think the Yale piece of that dropped out, uh, if not in the 80s after the reform, um certainly in recent times. Uh and I think you'll find plenty of people from the Midwest. Uh and um I I never really thought that we were uh elitist East Coast. Now, keep in mind, I know that uh a lot of people will talk about that. A lot of people that talk about that actually went to an institution on the East Coast, like me. So I know I went to George Washington University for my master's, uh, but I found it to be uh they were pretty good about uh doing that recruitment. I I can't speak to how it's going now because it's just been so many changes, but I felt pretty comfortable with that. In fact, what I was seeing was the Ivy League folks were more interested in getting jobs at the White House, the National Security Council, do a couple of years there, and then move on. But the long-term folks I felt was a pretty good mix.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Okay. Now, returning back to you, tell us about your first posting overseas.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

That is interesting. I was sent from I was living in Washington at the time. I decided to join the Foreign Service. I actually failed the test once in '95 while I was working there. A lot of us fail, so that's okay. You just gotta figure out um how to you know pick yourself up and start over. So uh I worked for a while as a civil servant and then I decided to take the test in 1998. Uh, because of some just some strange bureaucratics, I took the test and passed it and started in the Foreign Service uh two weeks later, which is uh extremely rare. Most people will wait two years. Uh, and uh one of your previous guests, Linda Tagliatella, had a lot to do with that in slotting me into an empty seat that was about to expire at the end of a fiscal year. Uh, I was then uh on flag day, which is uh that that day in uh your early uh orientation class, uh, you get a flag that represents the country you're going to, and I was told I was going to Monterey, Mexico, which was fascinating because actually closer to my hometown in Tulsa than uh Washington, DC. So I felt a little like I was returning home. Uh in that job, uh, you know, new people coming into the business. It's a lot like any business, you got to go sort of uh pay your dues, uh, and that is on the visa line for the generalists at least. And so uh I spent two years uh interviewing Mexicans and I got to know so much about the culture, about their way of life and their way of thinking and their values. And as well, uh I administered the guest worker program. I think that I tell people, you know, processing 80,000 visa applications during those two years really changed my perspective on immigration and um that people weren't all trying to get out, they were trying to figure out ways to stay in their cultures and their societies, um, but also feed their families. I was really proud to have worked on the uh H2A guest worker farm agricultural program. I thought that was a really good program, and I know it continues today.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Um, from your observ uh experiences at that time, uh, what comments would you have in the sense of the role that immigrants play in the agricultural industry in the United States?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Well, we we can't do it without them. Uh we need them increasingly. Um these are jobs. Even this was 25 years ago, 28 years ago. And uh I recall talking to uh farmers in uh North Carolina and in Georgia, and they said we put out ads. This was actually the requirement, you had to put out ads. Um, I think they said we got you know four uh Americans show up to do the job. Uh and by the end of the day, we had one, and that person only worked a half a day the next day. Uh the Mexicans were fantastic at working hard all day under some pretty grueling conditions. I think they knew that they could stay for the harvest season or whichever season they were working and then make their way back to their village and have uh a pretty good nest egg to supplement them throughout the rest of the year. Um, sure, some of them didn't come back. That was and certainly there was fraud, and you know, we worked to get that out. But you know, we found during that time, and this is a very different era when the numbers going north were quite different um than in recent years, but we found that generally uh folks uh I you know maybe a eight or six percent you know stay rate. But when we checked in on people, we generally found that they had come back. Certainly, it's not a perfect science, but you know, the State Department and those visa officers, uh it's their first assignment in the in the government typically. It's also they're our first line of defense, uh, and they're making judgment calls about whether this person deserves to get into the uh United States. We did all of that, by the way, uh without a lot of computer help, right? It was pre-9-11, and so the all the databases weren't all hooked together. You got some computer uh checks of what had gone on, but you didn't have the kinds of things you had access to today. So uh and in those days the emphasis was on uh pushing as many people through as possible. We had a very different mentality prior to 9-11, as you may recall.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Um did you serve on the console line anywhere else?

SPEAKER_01 16:15

No, the in those days you really had to do one visa tour. I think these days you might have to do two. I I don't know what the current situation is. Uh, but I was sent to Bolivia, uh, and because of my econ background, I was selected to be the economics officer at the post. It was such a small post in La Paz that uh I also did the duties of the commercial section, the for so working for the US uh Department of Commerce as well. Uh I also handled the uh agricultural section. So if there's anything anything having to do with economics, I was the the chief person. So as a junior officer, I was working directly with the ambassador uh on a lot of very interesting um projects. Uh always, you know, Bolivia is a it's a small country from a population, and uh, you know, a lot of these countries are small towns at the end of the day, everybody knows everyone. And so I was like living in that society. It was a pretty responsible job for uh being so new to the Foreign Service, and I really loved it. Uh let me add here, because you I don't know if you'll follow up. I uh but people may ask, yes, I was working for Ambassador Manuel Rocha, who many years later was uh uncovered and revealed to be a Cuban spy while I was working for him. Uh I won't comment more on that, but uh did not did not realize that at the time. But it certainly changed my perspective of everything that happens in Bolivia.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Well, uh for for even greater context, uh many FBI agents didn't realize that their peer, Robert Hansen, was a spy for the Russians. Uh so that that's just the way it plays out, unfortunately. During this time, as you're uh progressing uh up sort of the uh chain uh within the State Department, uh what are some of the lessons learned you took with you as you entered your first assignment as a deputy chief of mission?

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Well, I think it so the deputy chief of mission is the hardest job in government, or the hardest job in the State Department, that's what we call it. Um you are the axle grease between uh the ambassador, often a lot of Washington offices, and your staff. The ambassador is working on uh the bilateral relationship. They they he or she owns the breadth and the depth of that. Within that, you have to make sure that the country team, that's the group of the section heads that advise the ambassador, is working toward his or her purpose and working on his or her agenda. So the the first lesson that you have to take if you're gonna do that job is that you're giving up the job that you used to have. Uh, say I was a political officer, we have these different specialties in the or tracks in the Foreign Service. Uh I uh had to set that aside, and I'm not I wasn't the super political counselor. I was essentially the servant to all of them to make sure that they got what they needed to do their job. So you're you're a lot of times in the background, just ensuring that all of the machinery is running. It uh it is 24-7, um, it is often uh emotionally uh difficult just because you're dealing with not only your employees and maybe problem employees or folks that have challenges, um, but you also have to deal with their families, right? Because there may be uh issues in the home that uh we have certainly have an interest in. Um if there are problems in the home, uh it typically is uh it's our responsibility. It's also subject to federal jurisdiction in case there are acts of violence or any improprieties in the home. So uh it can be a pretty stressful job, and you learn a lot about people that you wish you'd never knew. You just want to do your job. So I always tell DCM schools or candidates, uh, make sure you understand that going in, that you your job now is to serve all these people doing the job that you used to do.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Well, uh going from there, what what further sort of uh insights would you share in terms of when you're interacting with, for lack of a better word, these subordinates, but they're actually senior level people because they're running their own office, right? The the uh primary political officer, uh the general services officer, uh the regional security officer, the consular chief. So when you're sitting in that DCM chair, you know, you're the person that evaluates them. What did you observe that made for effective individuals in those positions?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

You know, Maurice, you're looking for someone who brings you the solutions. Uh, you very quickly can tell when somebody is bringing you the problem and asking you to fix it. Um, and you realize, wow, the more people that come to me with some solutions, they could be half-baked solutions, uh, but that they haven't thought through, okay, how are you gonna fix this problem? Uh, then you're putting just enormous stress on your bosses and you're saying, I'm just gonna pass this up. And you can do that for a good part of your career, but then you do start to realize uh that when you're passing it up, someday you're gonna sit in the seat where all of those things are landing and you're gonna have to deal with it. So uh it was uh common that I would say to people, hmm, it sounds like you have a problem, meaning I'm not gonna get in. Involved in this, you need to uh figure out how you're gonna solve it as a senior officer uh who is responsible for making all of this work. Uh the minute you ask me to get involved, I can do it. But um then I will that's gonna be your go-to move is you're always gonna come and ask for help. But um at that level, and we're not doing this to folks, you know, if you have someone who's relatively inexperienced, you do get in and you help and you help walk them through it. But at this level, you're always talking about coaching, right? You're not gonna go out and shoot the free throw for them, but you're gonna uh help to coach them. I I had a DAS once, a deputy assistant secretary, uh, who gave me a piece of advice. Anytime anyone ran in and uh said that they needed his help or he had to do something, he said the first thing that he asked himself was, why is this my problem? And he didn't do it in a way, it wasn't lazy by any means. It was just, have you guys put enough thought into what the what the decision is before you come to me and just describe it all? So you're really looking for those people that um put together solutions on your behalf so that you can just say yes or no.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

So as we transition now from uh overseeing relationships internally to a mission, um now you're in the role of Deputy Assistant Secretary covering South America regional economic policy. Tell us about that, you know, how trade uh and economic policy function as tools of influence and then managing relationships or influencing uh relationships with other economies.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah, I think when the the further you go up in the State Department, the more you see the connectivity. Um, first uh you're working on a country, right? And maybe you even get a group of countries if you're in an office and you can sort of see the interplay there. Um, you know, at some point then I was uh working on a whole continent of South America, and you could see that. But as a PDAS, I started to now see how the things that were happening in my region were affecting other uh regions. So I'll just go back. There was a brief moment for a few months where I was in charge of Haiti, uh continued to be a problem all throughout. And the PDAS, by the way, really is the person who needs to take first responsibility for the safety of the staff in your and the and the um yeah, it will the security of your embassies, uh, right, for the Bureau. So anytime there was a question of the safety of our folks down in Port-au-Prince, uh, I would be involved either early as a DAS and then later um as a PDAS. But you realize you're trying to go in to uh ask for help on Haiti, and really the fix there, it continues to be today, is they have a security crisis that you have to fix first, and then that will sort of get them through what is an ongoing political crisis of not having elected leadership in place. Uh, and then you can get to sort of the economic piece of uh helping them sort of re-uh reignite their economy. But we realize uh from the big meetings with the secretary that uh he's dealing with uh a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Um and uh and then the White House, you know, they're dealing as well. Um, and then Gaza lights off. And so now you've got two big regional conflicts in which we're pretty involved. And you you realize I'm not gonna get any help for Haiti, I'm not gonna get a military uh solution. Uh ultimately we worked out a UN solution that continues to be worked out today. The the new administration has now sort of adopted uh at least the style of the idea. They've got their own imprimature on it, which um seems to be uh moving towards some resolution. And I just raise all of those pieces sort of fit together, but you know, to go to your like main question, I feel like the economics is the deep current out in the middle of the river, and the political stuff is happening on the surface, and uh, you know, you could have rapids and little jetties and and things at the top, but you know, out in the middle of the river is where the economic interests are sort of driving things. It doesn't always move as fast. Um, and so I used to say when I was an economics officer, like rarely did I have to stay uh late and write that cable because Washington was waiting for a cable about you know monetary policy in Bolivia. We did have a financial collapse and a near coup and all kinds of things. So occasionally they did, but for the most part, you can be a little more contemplative on the economics and while the political is sort of the urgency of the day.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Um would it be fair to say, uh I already have the answer in my mind, uh, but to borrow from you know von Flauschwitz that war is uh simply diplomacy by other means, isn't economics, trade relations just diplomacy by other means?

SPEAKER_01 26:59

It certainly can be. I mean, the purpose of economics is for businesses to maximize profits. So, you know, you're always approaching it with what is going to help US business. I mean, we have that mandate from the State Department as we're always supposed to support US business. Um, but um you do realize that a lot of things go into that that maybe the business isn't clued into. Um, you know, you have questions like, let me go to one in um Peru, you know, they had long ago had issued some agrarian bonds, probably when your dad was down in Colombia, the Peruvians had a military government that the socialist military government that was trying to uh do land reform, and they issued, they expropriated a bunch of land and then issued some bonds that were uh to quote a president down there, essentially Confederate money, you know, by the time uh we were on the scene there in the mid uh 20 teens. And but you had US uh US investment firms buying up these distressed funds and then requesting the full value with interest of what they were paid, and um they turned around and packaged those into products that found their way into the uh the teaching, the the teachers' pensions in maybe 25, 30 states. And so suddenly your ancient um interesting uh oddity of of uh economics has suddenly become a major political issue for, let's say, 40 congressmen and and some senators. A fascinating study. So you're now you're leaning on a government that really has no money to go back in time and try to fix this problem. They they have since resolved that issue through uh mediation, but every day you're trying to um help that U.S. company work their way through it while understanding you know you can't always lower the boom on them because you don't want to you know completely wreck the government um currently. I I'll tell you one other story going back to Bolivia was um the the Bolivians very famously they don't have oil, they've got gas and they've got um a lot, they had a lot of it. And in the late uh 90s, they began to develop that. Some US companies, you may remember a company called Enron was down there um producing that gas. And the and the idea uh a lot of oil companies got together, uh not Enron, but was to um the liquefied natural gas, which you probably know well from Louisiana, um, was just coming online, right? There wasn't really a world market for it yet, a spot market, but there were so you had to get these long-term uh sales contracts. So we were able to get this consortium was able to get a deal with um uh an energy company in San Diego that was going to uh truck this, pull this gas out, truck it over to by pipeline over the Andes, which would have been a major feat to Chile, uh liquefy it, put it on refrigerated tankers, and send it up to Mexico, where it would be regassed, sent across into the San Diego Power Grid. Uh phenomenal uh idea, really uh would be a major uh uh achievement of uh policy as well as uh engineering, right, to get all of that done. The the thing that everybody kind of breezed over uh this would be in 2003 and the years after, was that uh Bolivians were pretty upset about Chile and the fact that uh they did not have access to the sea. This goes back to uh you know 150 years. And uh we all just assumed, well, it's but it's good business, they'll enjoy getting these the revenue from this. Well, that wasn't the case. They, in fact, uh rebelled. Uh, the president, um, there was a big shooting out in the plaza during a protest. The president uh you know had to escape via an ambulance to get out. Um, eventually he fell out of power. Um, but you know, you you realize that holy cow, this economics uh this this economic project that seemed to make total sense from a business standpoint uh was just not achievable because the people, you know, we thought they would they would go along with it because they would realize how much money they would get. But it's just a different mindset and a different culture. That was a big lesson for us, for me at least, of uh not everybody thinks the same or processes information the same. And uh and it really ended up in disaster.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Um for for us to understand better, I mean, what kind of role or how necessary uh role does the Foreign Service, through its diplomatic missions and relationships overseas, play in these business relationships? I mean, does a business really need, you know, the US Embassy for X country uh to help them land a deal? Um how does all that work?

SPEAKER_01 31:54

I mean, the answer is in your question. You use the word relationship. And uh before any US company decides to go there and have a transaction, businesses know this, they've got to build relationships because you don't just go down if you're if you're selling something, maybe, uh if you're buying something, maybe. But if you're investing or wanting to put a production facility in or buy some uh you know some security there or buy some um you know some property there, you you really have to understand the environment you're going into. It's it is riskier, but uh I think people are getting scared away from it by not understanding that you've got people at that embassy that have been talking to a minister, a trade minister all the time, and or the finance minister, or chances are we sent that finance minister to uh you know four cities uh for an exchange program when he or she was in their 20s, right? And uh they have fond memories of the United States, or you know, oftentimes in Latin America, uh those types of folks probably went to school in the United States. And we are constantly working on maintaining dozens, hundreds of cultural uh and uh political and economic ties uh with our outposts there. You'll see sometimes you know, we close an embassy, say in uh Venezuela, we've done it in Cuba, um a few other places. Every time we do that, we've reopened obviously in both of those places now, but every time we do that, we cut ourselves off from those relationships. And it it makes further uh relationship building impossible. So um if you are a US business trying to get overseas, um, look for some help, look for advice. Uh you may not get any, but even sometimes even just explaining what you're up to may trigger some uh things that that you might not have understood. Sometimes you need a law change or regulatory change, and we can absolutely help with that. If you're trying to win a bid abroad, there's all kinds of assistance that the federal government can give you, both in Washington as well as overseas.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

And in your opinion, based on these different assignments you've had throughout uh the Western Hemisphere and then back at Maine State Department and the senior Foreign Service roles, do you believe that we as a country, so that encompasses our government uh from municipal through federal businesses, that we have a tendency to overlook the value and benefits of relationships with member nations, with businesses located in the Western Hemisphere? Uh is our focus too much towards Europe, too much towards Asia, and there are just golden opportunities awaiting in the Western Hemisphere, or are there no opportunities? And that is why we're looking at Europe and looking to Asia?

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Uh probably when I was in the role, I would have come in with a full-throated uh cheer for Latin America and the Caribbean. Um, now that I'm working in a state trying to attract foreign direct investment, I have to look at well, what are the countries that really are investing abroad? And you're going to find those today in Europe and Asia. There are significant pockets of money in Latin America. I wouldn't say it's um generalized to the entire uh region. Um now, that said, if you're going the other way, where you are a US company uh looking to invest abroad, there are a lot of opportunities. There might be slightly higher risk just from the regulatory and legal standpoint. Um we see this right now, for example, in Venezuela, with the administration trying to convince oil companies to go back into Venezuela. They're gonna go back. We already see some of those deals being signed, but they're very wary, knowing that this country has already nationalized um their petroleum industry twice in their history. So uh they'll be very, very cautious on how they do that. And in a lot of countries, um, that is certainly the case. But that said, there's a lot of natural resources there. If you're looking in the agricultural sector, there are a lot of opportunities. Our trade agreements still exist, and in Colombia or Peru, I was always impressed about folks that figured out the um off-cycle for agricultural products so that uh such that you know, if you go to Walmart today, there's and it's the off-season, there's a very good chance you're gonna buy a blueberry that was grown in Peru or Colombia, or you'll get an avocado out of Colombia um when uh others are out of season. So um that hasn't put a single farmer out of work in those other countries because they weren't growing it. So it there were some really interesting opportunities uh in those areas. And you know, remember, uh, they have to eat too, they do produce a lot, but um to have like a really significant poultry industry, for example, in Peru, which that's the chicken eating you know, capital of South America, um, you know, they had to import a lot of our soy uh to um to feed their chickens, as well as they would buy you know poultry from the United States just because of their value. So there are opportunities. I think it's a little more um select. Let me finish that by just talking about the future here. There are some technological pockets that are very interesting. Um, Mexico, Medellin, um, Argentina, Buenos Aires, Córdoba, they've got entrepreneur uh technology startups, uh unicorns that could be very, very interesting and might have a future uh in the United States. There's even folks here in Oklahoma who are recruiting Latin Americans to uh Tulsa, and we've got five new Latin American startups uh that work here presently because you can't raise your um first round of uh venture capital uh down there. You might be able to get some seed money or talk to your friends or bootstrap it. But to get that next level, um Oklahoma just turns out to be a great place. And so we have a what we call a landing pad program here to help those Latin Americans come in. So it's a range. Um and uh you know it is an extremely important region for us strategically as well as economically, as we're already seeing with things like drugs, immigration, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Well, now that we've been talking about your your activities uh working at the state level, tell us about this you know, global to local impact. You know, what are some of the differences you've encountered uh as you transitioned from State Department now to the Department of Commerce from Oklahoma? And what Oklahoma is trying to do, they're effectively engaging in, I guess, what we would call subnational diplomacy, or am I wrong?

SPEAKER_01 39:15

I mean, that's certainly the idea, and I think that was their concept in hiring me, having 30 years of experience in diplomacy, was to um take another look at how they were uh you know addressing the world and then looking at what are the trends and where do we need to really spend our uh our very precious capital and resources that we've got. Um the differences between the federal and state level um are a lot, but there's some similarities too. Uh there's a bureaucracy in all of these places, right? And um they have a slightly different nature to them, but I think the laws of bureaucracy uh apply, um, and having a lot of knowledge at the federal level has has been helpful and it translates into the state level. Also, the people that you're working with, it's the same group. They want to be public servants, they love to help people. Um, I felt like I wasn't quite done yet serving, and I was just very gratified and grateful to be given this opportunity to continue to be a public servant. Um, there's still politics uh in just like in Washington, we have politics here. They're very different, um, and they are probably less intense if you know Washington is always at an 11 uh on politics, and I think they're probably at about a three here. Uh and um it's it's uh I sleep through the night, let's just say. Um, and then you know, like any foreign service officer, they parachute you into some post and you have to sort of figure out who all the players are, how do they interact, um, and what's what's sort of the rules of the game and understanding what we like to use the phrase here is ecosystem, right? And there is a vast ecosystem of economic development that I ignored uh pretty much as a foreign service officer, failed to understand. And uh it really is the last mile in all of that talk that we do abroad about helping US companies, but you know, we're talking about how do we find that company, recruit them, and get them to us an industrial site in the United States that has all the things that they need close to rail, close to water, close to their market. And I I I really that part of it was always a missing part. And so I'm thrilled to be able to do that. The difference is uh that I see, you know, um some things are faster, some things are slower in the state, states just don't generate as much income. They don't run massive, uh, at least Oklahoma does not run massive uh deficits. We're pretty fiscally conservative here. In fact, I think we spend less money on our resources for things like this because our big selling point is we are the lowest cost uh state for doing business in America presently. Um, we do have a lot of power, although we're all facing the squeeze from the data center dilemma. Um, and there is, um I don't want to say there's like less awareness of the foreign environment of because there are a lot of very savvy folks. Uh like I said, Tulsa was once the capital of the uh world oil industries. Uh a lot of that's moved to Houston now. But uh in both both Oklahoma City and in um in Tulsa, there are some very savvy uh business folks who are doing work all around the world. There's small town um machine shops that you know buy product from China and sell their finished products in um in Europe or in Africa. Uh and there is a whole system set up to help do that. Let me finish the last thing is um that kind of surprised me because uh your listeners um might attribute a certain mindset to Oklahoma, but when I came up here just or came down here to look at, you know, do I have the possibility of creating a new life, starting a new life here last year when I was thinking this through, I found all of the businesses, the foreigners I met um saying, remarking just how opening, uh open and welcoming Oklahomans were. They no one ever felt like they were the outsider. Um and that really spoke to me and and it and it has borne out um every day. There are a lot of Oklahomans here who are very open to international work. We do have a lot of work to do, though, to get people to understand um that when you are open to foreign markets, you you increase, you vastly increase your uh sales base uh potential client base by 96%, right? Because we're such a small portion of the market. So we have Really, do a lot of work to convince people to invest the time to be exporters or to look for foreign investment partners, and we have a lot of great foreign investment in the state already. Uh, happy to talk about some of those and how that figures into the geopolitics. But you know, on the coast, we tend to refer to this part of the country as the flyover part, and it is a shame because it really isn't. There's quite a bit of savvy uh uh politically aware folks here that are um making some real advances for the economy and creating jobs for Oklahomans.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Well, before we explore uh what you alluded to, uh the foreign direct investment in Oklahoma, um briefly, what what suggestions or observations would you share uh with municipal or state level entities that either have a similar type office as yours uh or they would like to develop one? Now, what makes for an effective team in that sense and pitfalls they should consider uh to avoid?

SPEAKER_01 45:12

You know, one thing I've learned is that this concept of economic development in the United States, um, it is a whole subculture and it it requires a lot of um education and background. Uh there are uh certifications that you can get in economic development. Uh I'm taking one right now in uh course in FDI. Just you know, you would think I would know it all, but I actually didn't know the details. Um and you you do have to develop a team, you do have to have um top cover for activities like this, like in any business, like this is essentially the business development arm of the government, right? And so we have a governor who is just he calls it uh the world to Oklahoma and Oklahoma to the world. Uh, he has a real vision for for investment in Oklahoma, and he's willing to drop everything and fly to you know Dubai or to Korea or Japan whenever uh he is needed to help close a deal. And so you need that top cover, obviously, but you also need that skill set beneath. Um and then you need to have some uh savvy for the diplomacy and the protocol pieces of it that you know you're dealing with a different culture. Um that is not a magic esoteric thing. Um it starts with just learning some basic courtesies and how cross-cultural communication works, but you have to be um sensitive to that. You can't, you know, humor, for example, never translates, uh, and it it's it's very hard to do that. But um, but I I will say just personal touches, um, you know, our governor, you know, will gift people a cowboy hat, or you know, we'll take uh a uh a famous barbecue sauce and you know give it to foreigners. It it is a you know, there's a lot of touches that you can do. Um, and so you need to sort of have all those pieces. I don't at all want to suggest, though, that a state is like paternalistic to these cities and towns that develop that that actually do the economic development work. What we do is, I mean, we will help attract them, but we have to ultimately work in partnership with a lot of different groups. None of us has all the resources or the authorities to like land one of these deals. So we'll work with a chamber of commerce. Um, often there's some sort of authority, like maybe a port authority or an airport authority. Uh, and then the the city or the town itself may have an economic development expert. Um, often there's a private entity in the middle of that, a site selector, that's somebody who's just an expert on helping foreign companies uh relocate to the states, and that's a whole sub-industry. So yeah, it's it's not an easy uh thing to get into. The other part of it, it's a little like our uh electoral college. You know, it's not the we don't have like one entity that manages all of this. It's hundreds of uh maybe thousands of entities in the United States that are all trying to attract different types of business, and we're all playing to our comparative uh strengths as to what kind of business we can attract and what makes sense for our communities and our state.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Do you do you have a particular uh example in mind when it comes to Oklahoma that you'd like to share with us?

SPEAKER_01 48:36

I mean, uh there let me share two. One is last year our governor signed uh an MOU with uh the um Emirati's uh Global Aluminum uh Company, which is in um it's out, it's in Dubai. And uh the idea as part of the America First Industrial Policy was to start producing aluminum in the United States. Um this is Oklahoma uh working this and this is a frankly, this is a bipartisan policy. Uh so I didn't mean to invoke one particular you know administration here because they'd been working on it for a while, but it all came to fruition last year. Um, and um the Emirates uh understood that you know we're moving into a different phase of how the world looks at open markets uh and tariffs, and they understood it was probably a good idea to start producing more in the United States and they could make a good business out of it. So they're willing to put quite a bit of money, it's a$4 billion investment. Um, we happen to have the you know, geography is everything, right? So we happen to have a waterway that's 442 miles inland from the from the Gulf that works its way all the way up to outs just outside of Tulsa. And we had some visionaries who figured out we needed to have some industrial sites around that, and so we've got those ready. And uh we we will be moving forward soon. And it's not just a new aluminum smelter, but it's also a cluster industry all around that, so you can move your um aluminum whatever production facility, an extruder, aluminum products, you can move it right next to the uh smelter and take the offtake, the literally the hot molten aluminum right off of the assembly or the the production line. And so we've got thousands of new jobs, and while there's gonna we're gonna need a lot of engineers and and experts, uh we also just need a lot of workers who have uh like a vote tech degree or career tech degree, and um, we're working on that as well. There's a whole workforce uh subculture that sort of works around that as well. So, you know, we do feel like we're a you know a geopolitical entity uh in in making America successful. The other one was just found out, you know, just recently is uh um U USA Rare Earths uh is a magnet company. Obviously, that's an extremely important industry for the United States right now because it it has uh geostrategic um uh implications for China and its sort of stranglehold on the magnet market, which we need for semiconductors. And um just yesterday had a uh a company announce it uh here in uh Stillwater, Oklahoma, that it was starting to take orders for the for production line of magnets and uh USA Rare Earth, which is a uh it's not just in Stillwater, that's where the production facility is, but they'll be um we're we'll be part of that production chain of of producing from critical minerals um a very valuable component both for military and for just industry in general, every kind of magnet that you can imagine. So, I mean, those are two ways in which Oklahoma is playing its part. Now, I always say in in the states, you're not policy makers, you're policy takers. So, you know, whatever policies come out of Washington, the states will figure out how they can play in that and how they can succeed.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Um, going to the Emirates Globe Aluminum Seltering Project uh there in Oklahoma, uh, how long is this going to take uh to come to fruition? And what other states uh does this benefit in the area?

SPEAKER_01 52:24

I mean, that's a good question. There's a lot of variables here. So um, you know, typically building something like this, this is a massive undertaking. The the pot lines of a smelter can be over a mile long. Um, and so it it sort of all depends on a lot of different variables. Um, obviously, there's a competition for power right now. We have data centers going in um everywhere, every state is dealing with that. Um, that has power implications, and so every state is dealing with that. Um, and then uh you also have uh questions about tariffs because there are um uh tariffs on aluminum and steel right now at about 50 percent. Uh it makes a lot of sense to relocate to the United States under those conditions, um, but it does it every one of those uh variables changes the how the economics work. But the idea would be that you could bring in your bauxite, um process it uh somewhere down in the Gulf, probably Louisiana, and then you would kind of truck it up the uh or float it up the canals to um to Tulsa. So um that that's the general um idea. There could be investments all along the way, you know, it's it's hard to say. Um obviously we'll need to keep that canal um working. Um and realize you're whenever you move something a lot in one direction, you may create um a backhaul issue for what do you do with the empty, you know, in this case barges or empty, you know, rail cars or whatever it is you're dealing with. So it creates opportunity for the outgoing stuff as well because they'll have uh lower transportation costs. So um, you know, I I was it it's gonna be a number of years in in the construction. Um, and I I don't want to give too many details because I'm really not in charge of this. Uh those are the companies that are doing it, but you know, we're here to help and we think it's a great move. Um and it's and it's really a lot of of jobs for people um in Oklahoma. So it'll not only like help in revenues and taxes and things like that, but it will help with uh you know really good long-term jobs for Americans.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

And out of curiosity, um what do you think was the catalyst for attracting uh Emirates Global Aluminum to Oklahoma as opposed to Texas, Louisiana, uh, Kansas? Again, why Oklahoma? Did Oklahoma uh was Oklahoma competing with others? Uh or was Oklahoma natural fit? Did the Emirates come to Oklahoma or so on and so forth?

SPEAKER_01 55:04

So I wasn't around for all of this. I'll just you know, just speaking in more generalities, the um when a company is wanting to do something like this, they'll hire, like I said, a site selector and they'll start to um look at all of the candidates. And there are no fooling, there's like Zillows for this where you just kind of go on and start um narrowing it down and looking for things. And then you're not only looking for the the geography to make sense, but you're also looking for the uh about you know 10 other factors, or maybe it's 20 other factors, of what kind of incentives that a state or a municipality could offer. Um, you know, you you want to attract business, but you also don't want to be left uh you know with a big hole in your budget, right? So you want it to be um to ultimately contribute to the development and growth of your community. Um there's regulatory issues, environmental. Um all I can say really is that Oklahoma did compete against 22 states and territories in Canada and um and ultimately was was the the winner. I I would guess the one of the great things about that uh canal system, which by the way was an investment you know started in the the 40s and probably not really it was it was President Nixon who inaugurated it, but that creates ultra cheap transportation um that you can just float right up to your uh to your facility. Um it it is uh a lot cheaper than um than uh rail or truck. And so uh a lot of people we use it for agriculture mostly and for we do bring steel in from Arkansas and Pennsylvania, and we can get it pretty much all the way up, anything up to Canada. So um having that I think was probably the the clincher. The other thing you have to ask yourself is like, you know, can if I'm gonna send people to work there from abroad, um, you know, or I need to attract high-paid engineers. Do I have the housing available? What kind of city is it? And you have some philanthropies here who are working very hard to increase the sort of livability of Tulsa as well as Oklahoma City. Um, and I'm definitely not trying to say we're at all better than other states. Everyone just has a different um set of criteria that they offer. Um, we do feel like we're getting a lot of people coming into Oklahoma that say that that Texas is sort of running out of um some of the opportunities that had attracted folks there originally. And so they're starting to look at southern Oklahoma just being like a quick you know truck ride or rail away from uh from Dallas, let's say. So we'll we'll benefit in southern Oklahoma from that um sentiment in Texas, just as you know, costs will go up over time if uh investments are starting to sort of reach their maximum in in Texas, we'll get more in Oklahoma. And we're seeing some of that right now.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

Um what would you see as a path forward for any, again, municipal, state level uh entity that's focused on developing these types of relationships to either support existing industries and economies or diversify? How should they make the decisions in what directions to go in when they're formulating their plan? Um where should they get their information from? Uh as you know, should it be because uh the director of the office or the governor of a state, you know, says, I think yes, or we need to focus on ex-country or what have you, uh, or is it more of a collaborative process that's gonna make much more sense when it comes to making the decisions and allocating the taxpayer resources?

SPEAKER_01 58:52

I mean, in that, I am very glad that I got to attend the National War College uh 12 years ago to learn about the idea of strategy and how you formulate it and how you um implement it. So when I was a DCM, you are typically in charge, the senior, the senior most officer in charge of implementing of formulating and implementing the integrated country strategy, uh, where you push the sections to come up with what are your real goals here and what are we trying to accomplish. And when you make a strategy, you you sort of create a cone. And if it's inside that cone and you we we have an activity and you're weighing that later against an activity that's outside the cone, you have your answer, right? And so it um it will tend to deflect a lot of uh sentiments of, hey, I've got a good idea. And so that is a process we were actually mandated by the legislature to produce a strategic plan, which we're about to drop here, that will um outline some of our um most uh uh lucrative or um potential um sectors. I really uh don't want to go into it because I would prejudice the some people that are still supposed to make a decision on it, but I will say that it's very common, for example, our aviation, defense, and space industries are really taking off here. Um we've got 1,200 um uh aviation and defense companies in Oklahoma. We've got the largest maintenance repair overhaul facilities in Oklahoma City and uh Tulsa, both military and civilian uh in the world. And so in a strategic process, you would say that is our comparative advantage. That's the kind of stuff we're gonna get. Can we make airplanes? Well, maybe they do that up in Wichita um or in in uh Seattle, but but um what we can do is repair and overhaul them very, very well, and we've got the infrastructure to do that. So you kind of want to like take stock of everything that you've got and then play to your strengths, right? And then um figure out what do we need, where do we need to put our resources? Well, it's it you know it's into those areas. Space is the other one that's just um uh got all kinds of um potential. Uh for example, um, we just broke ground in Tulsa on a new in-space propulsion testing uh lab that companies can now come and test their satellite rockets, which are um small propulsion, but you have to start moving satellites around in space these days. So uh we're really on the cutting edge. You know, I met somebody yesterday who's working on um the next generation of spacesuit um that sort of launched out of one of our universities, which are other incredibly important strategic partners that that form one of those assets that I was talking about. So when you compile all of that, you've got a plan. Now the next step is telling people about your plan because 50% of strategy is saying that you have a plan, right? Because then people will start to look to you for the leadership and the guidance, and then they won't make up their own solutions, right? And um, so once you get a strategy, you've got to communicate that out to others within your constellation of uh of effort and make sure that we're all sort of moving uh along the same lines. It's not 100%, and obviously the world changes and strategies have to morph, but it is a great starting point uh when you're trying to um move uh an economy um that's that's already going to move on its own, but how can you shape it in a way that really leads to more sustainable growth and at the end of the day, better jobs uh for Oklahomans?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Um briefly, what comes to mind when you think of mistakes made and developing strategies?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

I think um probably one of the biggest is just making the strategy and putting it on the shelf and not setting up a structure. So when I was DCM in Lima, for example, after we came up with our, you know, whatever four pillars of lines of action, I instituted um a monthly meeting where we would go over one of the pillars. So we would call that the pillar meeting. So we could say, hey, we said we were gonna do this, um, let's go through it once a one of them once a month, just so that there's a check-in so that everybody knows that it wasn't just a an exercise, um, but that we are very serious about doing it. So I think that's your probably number one problem. I I guess the other one would just be um assuming that you're gonna get uh resources. Um that's always uh a problem for any state. Um we're all sort of um running around, sort of not begging for money, but we're all we're we're looking for different sources. And so you do have to spend a lot of time socializing because you could bring on a lot of partners who are willing to contribute um in the areas that benefit them. So, you know, you you if you're working on the aviation stuff, you've got an alliance that like there's a defense, you know, industry alliance here that would be helpful and and would would partner with you on implementing your strategy.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

Well, with that in mind uh and availability of resources to to support the strategy, I'm gonna give you a one question test right here, and that is what would you recommend to a place like New Orleans that has lost almost half its population since Hurricane Katrina 20 years ago? Uh there's uh a bit of a brain drain. Um there are infrastructure challenges here, and the local government is facing hundreds of million dollars in debt. And what would you recommend to a place like that uh to try to attract foreign direct investment?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

It's a loaded question, but it it really is, and uh for a guy that's been doing this line of work for only six months, it's a lot of hubris. So my apologies to everyone in New Orleans for any ideas that uh just don't track. But um, you know, you do you start with your with with geography and your assets, you've got uh you've got some great uh port potential there. Um, you know, one thing we realize is we if we try to swing for the fence uh every time, uh we're gonna be disappointed. And so uh we're trying to develop a process, much like the world champion OKC Thunder NBA champs, um, that that just leads us gradually toward uh success. And then you know, when we get that big uh investment possibility um that we're able to surge. So we might not look for that you know, giant car, that giant Toyota uh factory, but we might say, hey, what Kind of producers or suppliers might go into that Toyota factory. We're probably not going to get a semiconductor plant, at least not today. You know, we know where those are being built as a result of the CHIPS Act, but we certainly can play a role in the testing and packaging assembly side of things or electronic components. And so why don't we think about that? Because, hey, we've got great rail systems and great interstate systems and this canal I can't stop talking about. So why don't we, and we're also right in the middle of the country. So let's just play to our strengths and we'll we, as we say, you know, we'll hit doubles and singles all day long. Um, and then we're ready for that that big swing when we need to do it. So but but it's just that um overthinking it uh that there's that there's one um you know one company or one big investment that's gonna put you back into the black, um that's that's dangerous thinking. You need to build the process first and then let the successes um roll in. You need top cover in the meantime to that um people don't get you know impatient and and uh and and rewrite your legislation and completely change you know your your your plan. So that is a very humble uh take uh to I know it's a pretty serious problem for somebody for uh a city facing a lot of debt.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

Um in terms of assets, resources, what is a society's, uh what is a city's, a state's greatest resource?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:28

Ooh, well, obviously, um people, right? You have to start with the people. Um, you know, we're we're facing challenges in that we've got uh we have slid to um 50th in um literacy and third grade scores, and that is a that's something that's gonna turn companies off. Um so our legislature is meeting now to try to um change the the playing field there. Uh we're there listeners could look up the the Mississippi miracle to see how Mississippi has um moved above New England in some cases in their reading scores, and that will make companies start to pay attention. Now that said, we have some tremendous uh workforce um opportunities. Uh high school students in Oklahoma can actually switch over to another program and get their pilot's license or their mechanics, aviation mechanics license and go into uh these very lucrative uh uh lines of work that may just need a technical certification and not a college degree. Um but but you have to start with your people. Um the federal the the state government you know can offer different types of incentives and tax packages. We we have pretty much we don't have anything fancy, we just have the real basics. If you bring jobs here and pay people well, uh we'll give you a little bit of a refund on your taxes. And some of that comes even at the end once or later once you've proved that you're doing it, right? So um we we just say, hey, we've got great conditions to work here. Um somebody else might offer you, you know, to build you the building or something like that. Um that's pretty rare that you're gonna find. And lastly, the federal government does a lot in this space. Um, they they do a lot in export promotion, um, but they will help rebuild um small town communities, all kinds of programs for that. Um and uh, you know, if you're looking for any type of assistance, if you're a small business owner, uh there is somebody who is willing to help you. We've got uh all kinds of folks, both at the state, uh, local, and um federal level, or state officials who have a federal grant who will advise uh a business on how to do almost anything. Uh and people just don't know that those things are available. Um, but there are there are many, many resources um that we've made available over time to um the the building I'm sitting in is actually from a federal grant from the um economic development agency to create tech hubs around the country. And so uh we're working in all kinds of things in Tulsa. I didn't mention drones, but that's a huge uh growth area here because the tribal lands have been making their lands available for um autonomous drone development. So there's all kinds of fascinating things happening uh out in the countryside, you occasionally we'll be walking around and you'll hear a little buzz overhead.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

Um you had uh mentioned a couple of times uh some minutes ago the importance of developing a process that leads gradually to success. So, with that in mind, and as we're coming to a close here, and for our listeners, regardless of what stage they're at uh in their own careers or lives, but especially for young people, how would you define effective leadership and decision making?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

I mean, in the vein that you've you've primed me here for that question is uh what I would say is just no zigzagging. Um there are moments when a leader can predict the future. Those of us have been doing it a long time, this is a Malcolm Gladwell idea, but this idea that we can sort of tell how this is going to come out, right? Um, but if you have a plan, um you you might think about you know five degrees variation, standard or standard uh uh deviation off of that plan. Um but if you're sticking to the plan and the thing that you have thought through as to no, these are our goals. Um and if you're gonna change those goals, think it through again and make sure that you you consider you weigh all of the costs, right? And then whatever those costs are, you cycle it back through to your strategy. So um, but if you zigzag and somebody comes in and I'll do this in, you know, if you're getting a visit together, say you know the secretary's coming to visit your post or whatever, and suddenly you've you know, these are the things that you want to do, but suddenly somebody has this other idea. You know, as a leader, you know, you've got a big tail. So if you just if you're every day, every meeting, you're zigzagging one to the other, um, it is whipping your staff around to where they will just say, you know what, I'll just wait here until you settle uh and figure it out. But if you're communicating, if you if you know, oh geez, I'm gonna go in and talk to Mark again, he's he's gonna be on about this one thing. And you know, I'll have a list uh for that person as to what the the priority is. Um that is predictability and that helps uh the organization. I think that leads to um healthy outcomes uh when you're um moving with the wind or changing your idea every day or every other day, uh it's it just builds frustration. And people will fold their hands and say, Um, you know what, I'll let you handle all of this because I'm not really sure if I do this, you're gonna support me in the end.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

Is there any last remaining thought you would like to share with listeners?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

I'll just say for folks that are making that transition out of uh government, you know, in my case it was the Foreign Service, and you know, I was entering into you know what I thought would be, I frankly thought it would be the private sector. I sort of have one foot in the private sector, and then I'm working much more closely with um business than I ever had before. But you know, you have to develop that narrative, that quick elevator to pitch. And when I and I had to think through like, what does a foreign service officer mean to somebody? So I just told people, hey, uh we're problem solvers, we're networkers, we're communicators, um, we're analysts, and we're strategists. And I could like reel off uh tick off a point or two about each of those anytime I got into contact with somebody that you know might be sort of my next opportunity. And I I just I thought that was a great way to um be ready to um talk about yourself and brand yourself if you are uh needing to make one of these transitions. So the Foreign Service is very um foreign to uh folks uh you know working here in America, and uh just being able to throw out very quickly well, what value add do you have for me? Uh I found that to be enormously helpful. And I hope that's helpful for your listeners.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:21

It is. Mark, thank you. Thank you tremendously for sharing your experiences and and your thoughts, observations uh to our listeners. Thank you for joining us on Brungart Law's Lanyat, where we provide a little extra perspective because the devil is always in the details. And please invite others to listen. Let me know what you think via the link. Mark, again, tremendous gratitude.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:42

Thank you, Maurice. It's been a real pleasure to get to go over these things. Congratulations on the podcast. It's a great idea. Uh, hope that really looking forward to a lot more episodes.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:53

Appreciate that.