Decision-Making Across Institutions: A Conversation with Tim Davis

In this episode, we hear from retired U.S. Ambassador Timothy Davis whose career encompassed the Foreign Service and the Marine Corps. Whether he was leading our diplomatic mission in Qatar, serving as executive assistant to several U.S. Secretaries of State, or guiding troops in the field, Ambassador Davis shares lessons learned from over 30 years of public service.

Ambassador Davis reflects on the evolution of leadership from the military to diplomacy, where authority gives way to influence, persuasion, and long-term strategy. He offers candid insight into what it means to lead when outcomes are uncertain, decisions have consequences, and success often depends on navigating institutional culture as much as external threats. Ambassador Davis discusses transitioning from military decisiveness to diplomatic patience; how timing, luck, and institutional awareness shape career trajectories; State Department dynamics; misconceptions about the Middle East; as well as the relevance of culture and subnational diplomacy to New Orleans.

A conversation on leadership, service, and perspective grounded in experience at the highest levels of government, yet deeply personal in its reflections on purpose and growth.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Environment shapes leadership. In some settings, authority is direct and immediate. In others, it depends on influence, trust, and the ability to align competing interests across cultures and institutions. Navigating that shift requires awareness, judgment under pressure, disciplined execution, and the credibility to advise those making decisions at the highest levels of government. From counseling senior leaders in Washington to leading diplomatic efforts that advance U.S. interests in the complex landscape of the Middle East, what does it take to lead where outcomes are uncertain and the states are transnational? And how do those institutions shape not only professional impact, but personal perspective and choice? Welcome to Brungart Law's Lang Up, where we provide a little extra perspective through conversations with individuals from across the spectrum of society. I'm Maurice Brungart, your host. Today's guest is retired U.S. Ambassador Timothy Davis, a retired U.S. ambassador and career diplomat who most recently served as the United States Ambassador to Qatar from 2022 to 2025. Also a former U.S. Marine Corps officer in the Foreign Service, he built a distinguished career with postings in Iraq, Columbia, Guatemala, and Australia, and held senior roles in Washington, including serving as executive assistant to multiple secretaries of state and on the National Security Council. Known for his emphasis on leadership, execution, and results in high-stakes environments, Ambassador Davis now works in the private sector and has made New Orleans his home. Welcome to the program, sir. Thanks, uh, it's a privilege to have you here. Again, thank you for accepting my invitation. Why don't we uh go ahead and discuss your current activity and how you ended up where you are today by taking a little trip through the past?

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah, so uh I uh find myself uh recently in the private sector, which is uh quite a change. Uh for 30 years between being a U.S. Marine Um and being a Foreign Service officer, uh, I sort of dedicated my life to service uh to my country. Um uh you mentioned some of the things that I've done. I'm fortunate enough to have been a Marine for 10 years, but then joined the State Department and had the chance to um, you know, travel the world, be uh Hillary Clinton's special assistant and Mike Pompeo's executive assistant, Tony Blinken's executive assistant. I've worked at the White House, um I've led an embassy and a consulate, and uh really uh I tell folks that I uh if there's such a thing as uh privilege in the Foreign Service, I have it. Um they let me do um anything a young diplomat could dream of over the course of a 20-year career. Um uh following that, I uh left the State Department, retired last fall, um, and have uh found myself advising um uh capital management uh firms, um uh working with them on access to capital, on making uh connections uh globally. Um I also am doing uh some philanthropic work. I'm on the board of the mines advisory group, uh which does demining um uh around the world post-conflict. Um and so uh folks are uh hearing about mines in the Straits of Horror moves. Um uh important organizations like uh like MAG uh do the work of ensuring that following a conflict, uh there's not uh sort of a never threat uh to the public.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Let's start with some of your early influences regarding how to make effective decisions or or being in a role of leadership. Who would you say uh filled some of those roles early in your life?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, look, I mean, it's a great question. My dad was a Marine, uh, is a Marine, uh, was in the Marine Corps for nearly 30 years. Um I learned a lot from him uh about the stoicism required to be a good leader, um, about uh accountability and responsibility. Um, and so I would say uh my father was a heavy influence, but then you joined the Marine Corps and you have uh these leaders that are sort of straight out of central casting, and uh each of them has their own styles, certainly, uh, but there's a thread that runs through good leadership uh that includes um uh dedication to the mission, accountability, um uh responsibility for taking care of those who work for you. Um, and so I was sort of immersed in a leadership culture um that I think really doesn't exist in a lot of places. And so um you have a choice really um uh whether you're going to learn those lessons and take them on. Um uh but one of the tenets of good leadership that I learned early on from all of these people um was uh that it's not easy. Good leadership is uh difficult. Uh and so um, you know, whether it's uh my father or marine leaders or Secretary Clinton or Pompeo or any of the presidents I've uh worked closely with, um, you know, there is a price to be paid for good leadership, uh, but it's the only way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

When you use the term price for good leadership, could you give us a little context as to what you're thinking of?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Sure. I mean, uh, first of all, uh we all like um uh being seen and being celebrated. And very often good leadership is about making sure the people who work for you are celebrated. You will miss opportunities, uh, you will miss promotions, um, because your focus is on taking care of the people who work for you. Beyond that, um, because of the kind of work that I've done at state and in the Marine Corps, there are often real tangible physical dangers associated with the work that we did. Um uh making the decision as a leader uh to put yourself in harm's way uh to ensure the safety of the people who uh work for you is uh uh a high calling, uh, but it comes with um uh what I've mentioned is a price, whether that price be PTSD, whether that price be physical injury. Um and so uh good um quality leadership comes with the knowledge uh that you may um uh suffer for it.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

In retrospect, as you look back at your first few years in the Marine Corps, what would you identify what comes immediately to mind as what they did well or best in terms of prepping any individual for this role of leadership and what they did not do well at?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah, so uh it's interesting. It takes some distance and remove uh from initial Marine Corps training to fully understand its value. Um, one of the first things the Marine Corps does is it strips you of ego. Um, literally, in the first couple of weeks of training, um, they are having you get dressed in the morning sort of by the numbers. Pick up your left sock, hold it out, put it on. You've been dressing yourself your entire life, and now all of a sudden someone is yelling at you about the right way to get dressed. But what it does is it strips you of ego. Um, and then the Marine Corps, along with an indoctrination into Marine Corps culture, refills you with the kind of leadership and perspective that they want you to have, right? They're building uh durable, resilient leaders. Um uh it's hard for me to talk about what the Marine Corps gets wrong because I love it so much. Um in truth, um, there can be a myopia about what a good leader looks like, right? There is a push toward a uh common understanding of what a leader is and how a leader acts. Um, and sometimes that doesn't leave room for the discretion um that often turns good leaders into great leaders. And so um, you know, I rather than saying it's something the Marine Corps does wrong, it is something the Marine Corps doesn't necessarily do because it's not of value for the mission very often. And so um that sort of gray area discretion um that can often make someone a great leader isn't always emphasized in the Marine Corps.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Does does the Marine Corps, at least from your experience some time ago and from what you're aware of through those that uh are still in the Corps, does it make enough room for intellectual development? And I asked this. Uh, you know, the Marines have the stereotypical reputation of just being a bunch of crayon eaters, um, but moving beyond that, and that obviously is just uh one way of looking at things, but does it make enough room for intellectual development, introspection? Obviously, we've seen this in prior leaders, such as General Mathis, uh, who was uh well educated and self-taught. Um, so I turn it over to you.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yeah, so it's an interesting question because you're you're right, it's not our image. But some of the most aerudite people I've ever met were in the Marine Corps. There's a Marine Corps reading list, commandant's reading list, and obviously it's focused on leadership and sometimes tactics and military studies. But in truth, um uh I have found my experience in the Marine Corps um is that Marine Corps officers and very often Marine Corps uh enlisted personnel are some of the most well-read and curious people um uh around. And so the Marine Corps does leave space for it. Um I think the Marine Corps uh values that sort of uh academic and intellectual pursuit, it's not what we put on the poster. Um uh there's a certain um uh calling for folks who join the Marine Corps, and we're not always advertising that we'll sit around and discuss Plato or Socrates or um uh Marcus Aurelius, uh, but we do, um, and I think the Marine Corps values it uh for what it does uh for the mission. One of the things the Marine Corps is really great at is tying now to history. Um and uh part of that is uh philosophical and political, um uh, but to understand um combat, to understand conflict, uh the Marine Corps does place a value on understanding history and not just our own.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Okay, I'm going to plant the seed and let it germinate through our conversation uh as we discuss the other institutions you've worked for, uh, but that is the Achilles heels of these institutions. So we'll we'll leave that for now. Um the military, obviously being a mission-oriented uh culture, results driven, and as we now enter into a discussion about your um departure from the military into the foreign service, and how do you translate a bias toward action into environments where persuasions should be driving outcomes? So, you know, you you left the Marine Corps, why? And why'd you join the Foreign Service? I mean, in one sense, it seems like uh complete contradiction for some.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah. Oh, so yeah. So I mean, look, it's really interesting. Uh I uh we had after 9-11 deployed a couple of times uh in quick succession, um, and I grew curious about you know what is driving these decisions. When we um went to the um the gulf for the for the Iraq war, uh we got very short notice. We got on ships, um, we floated from San Diego uh to just um just off the coast of uh Kuwait. We did it in 34 days. We didn't stop at all. We uh replenished underway, um got our fuel while we were moving, got our uh got our mail and supplies while we were moving. And you start to wonder how these decisions are being made, who's making these decisions, what are the political realities that are driving the decisions? And I wanted to know. And so I found um the Foreign Service. It's a it's a written exam, it's an oral assessment, gotta be 21 and a U.S. citizen. And I thought, well, I'll take this exam. Uh, and if I pass, I'll get to see how these decisions are being made. But I loved being a Marine and I said, I'm only gonna try this once. You can do it once a year until you're 59 and a half, you can take the test. And I said, Well, that's not me. I'm gonna try it once. If it doesn't work, I'm gonna stay in the Marine Corps. And I passed. And you're right. The difference between the Marine Corps and the States Department is stark, right? There are there are military people, there are Marines that aren't able to successfully make that transition because you're right, the State Department is more collaborative. The State Department's mission, and they are mission-oriented, but the mission is decades long sometimes. There are people in the State Department who've been working on Middle East peace for 30 years, right? Like that's not a today solution. That is a long-term grind it out, figure it out, and still figuring it out, by the way, problem. And so for me, um uh I was able to make the transition. It did not come without Bunts in the Road, but in truth, my curiosity about how the organization works, what makes for a successful foreign service officer, political officer in my case, I wanted to figure all of that out. And in truth, I think that I'm probably a unique case as a political officer as a foreign service officer. Very successful at it, but not because I abandoned the Marine Corps or the things I learned in the Marine Corps, right? That uh I in the Marine Corps I learned to be very hard to buy. Right? I learned that the mission is always paramount, and so if someone needs to take out the trash, I'll take out the trash. If someone needs to write the concept of the operation, I'll write the concept of the operation. What do we need? And very often in a very competitive environment like the State Department, the the tools that we use to try to advance ourselves are common tools, right? Like you're not gonna advance at the States Department by proving how smart you are in a sea of people that are very smart, right? That trick worked elsewhere in your life, it won't work here. Um, and so having been a Marine, some of the things I brought with me actually turned out to be valuable uh in moving my career forward.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

You mentioned a sea full of very intelligent, smart people. Um, in such a profession filled with highly capable individuals. How do some rise above others? And I need to be very careful uh with that question. So there is the rising through the chain of command, right? Um, but there are some that do not rise, yet they still retain uh extreme capability of influencing others towards productive outcomes. Some people just can't make it up the bureaucratic chain, uh, yet they are still uh very capable individuals in their own right. So, with that, how do some rise above others that you find? And not and not a discussion, the valuation process.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah, so first of all, I want to I want to absolutely support your point. There are people throughout the organization, um, some of whom have never received the right promotion, been in the right job, climbed the ladder, but who are so good at what they do, so valuable at the level that they are, that the organization works better because they exist. And so I want to make sure that I'm supporting the idea that you can be successful and good at what you do without rising through the ranks necessarily um at stake. For those who do, um uh there is a look, we'll just talk about me in particular.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

The role that timing and a little bit of luck and uh meeting the right people at the right time played in my career cannot be dismissed. Right? I think I'm a good diplomat. I think I have the skills necessary to be successful, but you know, I also got lucky. The timing was like the timing was right. If I joined the Foreign Service two years before I did, I would not have had the opportunity to be Hodger Clinton Special Assistant. Right, which means I likely would not have gotten to work at the White House and then would not have had a resume that made it possible for me to work for Mike Pompeo or Tony Blinken.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Kind of like the butterfly effect, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:40

It really is. And so I think it's important, especially as we talk about something that people are going to hear, um about success to give due to timing and luck. Beyond that, however, um the study of the culture of an organization will tell you what got certain people to the top, right? Where did they work? The operations center at the State Department is very uh very common part of the resume of leaders of the States Department. And so, four or five years into your career, if you've got a choice and you can work at the in the operations center, you know, history has told us that that's one of the things that is on the resume or leaders at the States Department. And so you do it. And so by paying attention to what current leaders, past leaders did, decisions they made in their career, that sort of lights a path for folks to climb. You've got to be good, you've got to be uh uh somewhat well liked to do it, but there are these gates that people go through on their way to the top, and knowing what those gates are makes a massive difference.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Within the Foreign Service, would you say that and expand on this in any way you you wish, obviously, but the civil service is not sufficiently appreciated or supported uh because it's obviously the foreign service officers that tend to have a more prominent role. Uh that and it's not through any particular individual malintention, but the dynamics in the environment have worked out that sometimes those that serve in the civil service roles tend to be overlooked. Or do you find there's no merit to that at all?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

No, there's a great deal of merit to it. It's um in fact the the real issue with the civil service at the State Department is that it works like the civil service throughout government, right? Where you may have an organization, um uh you name it, I mean, by just to say like a post office, not an individual post office, but the US Postal Service. And you have someone who is a um uh an administrative assistant, and they've had that job for 20, 25 years. That's the job they went into, that's the job they do for their career. At the State Department, we have jobs for the civil service where it doesn't make sense for you to be in that job for 20 or 25 years. They truly are sort of entry-level foreign policy jobs. There's no path at the State Department. You, if you're a civil service uh uh uh diplomat, employee at the State Department, you have to identify what's next for you, and none of it is guaranteed, none of it is sort of legislated into how it works. When I worked for uh Ambassador Tom Shannon, who was the Under Secretary of Political Affairs. Number three at the State Department. Uh, I had seven special assistants who worked for me. Um, I and Tom decided that near half of those were going to be civil service. We could have filled every one of those jobs with foreign service officers. You know, we I think had three iterations of special assistance. Sometimes there were four civil service, sometimes there were three. And we were dedicated to, I was dedicated as his chief of staff. The civil service personnel who worked for us in the office of the Undersecretary of Political Affairs. I made sure that the jobs they got after, first of all, that we helped them get those jobs, that they were better jobs than uh they could have gotten at that point in their career if they wanted to, and that they were sort of launching them into leadership at the State Department. But that's only because we were personally dedicated to it. It didn't exist otherwise. And so uh, yes, there is uh a system that seems tiered uh at the State Department. Um, there is not a legitimate path for civil service personnel. Um, I think they are owed that. Um uh but for now it is individuals with influence in leadership positions that are making a difference for the ones who work for them. Um uh and I think setting an example for anyone who has uh a job or influence to take care of our uh civil service colleagues.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Uh briefly, uh I ask that you comment on um the demographics of the State Department from what you personally observed, and especially in today's climate where you know there's an overemphasis from one side or the other about the merits or the disadvantages of such. And so I I again what what are your thoughts on do we have sufficient diversity uh demographically, sufficient diversity in thought? Uh what is the importance of having you know people that are ethnically and gender-wise representative of our society? Or is that just uh too much of a focus on the surface of the individual?

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yeah, so uh it's interesting. One of the one of the um things you didn't mention is um uh geographic diversity as well. And uh look, I think no matter what side you're on, I think that uh folks can get around the idea of geographic diversity as fully representing the breadth of culture in the United States. Because we have as many missions uh around the world, as many embassies and consulates around the world as any country, um we are going to encounter uh every kind of society uh in the world. It is amazing, and being someone from New Orleans, if I am posted at a consulate in Montreal or at the embassy in Paris, my lived experience with French influence, with um uh French culture uh such as it is in New Orleans, um is entree for me to a conversation. It is a kind of understanding of uh a bridge to culture. And so there is value in all of the things that are particularly American, whether we're demonstrating that America is uh not just one thing or the other, whether we are putting at ease a visa applicant or uh or a minister, um, all of these things I think have value and they come from where all of Americans come from, culturally, um um uh geographically, and we should not be um uh hamstringing ourselves uh by not showing the full breadth of who we are. That's not a political statement, uh, but as someone who um has lived uh this life for many, many years, I can tell you that to the extent that the United States wants success and peace uh through diplomacy, um we are better able to do that uh by allowing um all of our um uh great uh span of cultures and society uh to be demonstrated out on the world stage. I I know you said briefly, I'll tell you, uh, as ambassador, our first uh Independence Day, uh we hosted um uh we had a Mardi Gras. We had uh a float that was driven into the convention center. We had two brass bands, umbrellas, we second lined, we did the whole thing. And the next day in the paper, the major paper in Doha, it said um Cutter celebrates its first Mardi Gras. It was our Independence Day, but you can't do better than that, right? My showing that part of America left an indelible mark on that society, and so we should be we should be stepping out into that.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Did you have a marching band by any chance? We had a marching band. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

We had everything, and I was so proud to show it to them.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Uh it's funny you say that because you know, as a youth, and then uh over the years, I've always thought how wonderful it would be to take some of the high school marching bands out of New Orleans and you know, spread them across the globe and march through uh you know the various capitals of different countries so they could just experience New Orleans through that expression.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Uh and I'm really that's that's diplomacy.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah. Um taking it just one step further, especially nowadays with our uh society here, and we have many more people of uh multinational uh descent, uh, and some maybe firstborn, or they have a parent who is uh born in the States but another parent born elsewhere. Do you find because some people would ask these questions, well, if we have people that have um diverse nationalities based on their ancestry, especially directly from their parents? No. Are they able to successfully navigate and manage uh the influences in favor of the United States if they were serving in the Foreign Service or the military, i.e., are they a security problem?

SPEAKER_01 29:18

So first of all, uh diplomatic security and um uh the folks who do security clearances do a really good job of um making decisions based on reality. Right? If um if your whole family lives in a certain country and you just became a foreign service officer, we're unlikely to send you to that country. Here's something that I want to say loudly we should never ever underestimate the power of America and being an American. We should never underestimate its influence on our citizens no matter where they started or where they come from. I my as I mentioned, my dad's a Marine, my sister's a Marine, her husband's a Marine, I have uncles who are Marines. I was a Marine for 10 years, active duty, 20 years in the Foreign Service representing the United States. When I presented my credentials to the emir in Qatar, the first thing that happens is there's a band and they play the national anthem of whatever ambassador is presenting her or his credentials. I've stood for that anthem thousands of times. I've stood at attention for that flag thousands of times. And when they played it and they were playing it for me, I was so emotional about America. And so anyone who questions, and there are occasional things that go wrong statistically, nothing that goes wrong, in the great scheme of things, no one should ever doubt the power of America on its citizens. And so diplomatic security does their job, and that's great. But being an American, representing America, um there's no higher calling. Um, and uh, you know I'm confident that people choose that or whatever else might attempt to influence.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Well, as I would like to say to audiences when I was giving uh briefings, you know, yes, we we've made mistakes in our past. We're not a perfect society with a perfect form of government, but at a bare minimum, I think we do rank up there. Um and so it is worth something uh supporting, promoting, uh, in spite of the flaws of our history, you know, our ancestors, whether we're related to them or not. Um returning back to the Foreign Service, and same question that I had asked about your time in the Marine Corps. Initially, as you were in the Foreign Service, those first set of you know, five years or so. What did you find they did well in prepping you in positions of responsibility decision making? And also, where did the State Department falter?

SPEAKER_01 32:45

So, what they what they did well is there's a real education that you get at the State Department about um uh diplomacy, about uh politics, American values. They do a great job of ensuring that what you are representing and promoting you fully understate. Um, and so uh I think that's hugely important. You also get a real peek into how the government works. Um, every aspect of it, of course, intel and diplomacy are very tied together. Like they immediately bring you in, right? You've got a top secret clearance for a reason, and so they do a good job of giving you a sense of the stakes of what it is you're doing. I think that there is uh um an over-reliance on the idea, however, um, that you're prepared for any and everything, right? That that we're just gonna send you off and um and you'll figure it out. Um in the Marine Corps, you never stop being guided and led. Um at the State Department, on occasion, um, relatively often you uh you are not on your own, but you are uh sort of left to your own devices. And um, you know, we teach you leadership mid-level and we teach you leadership at senior levels. Um, and there's a gap in between where you're not being deliberately taught about leadership. That never happens in the Marine Corps. I don't think I had a day in the Marine Corps in 10 years where the word leadership didn't come. It doesn't, it's not like that, the State Department. Um, and so uh we can do a better job of setting expectations with regard to how we relate to those who work for us and work with us.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Speaking of those that work for us and work with us, um let's speak to your particular experience leading a diplomatic mission. In this case, you know, it was uh cutter. And um let let's address uh you you were criticized at one point for having what you acknowledge, you know, you you took it on, a closed door policy. Now, I'm I'm aware of sort of the the backstory of that, but if you could explain to listeners uh the different approach you took and what you found worked about that, and again, in reflection, what perhaps you could have done differently, if anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

So the background, and this is important, uh, before I got to Doha, we had gone five and a half years without an ambassador at that embassy. It's an incredibly long time. And so what happened in the interim is that um the front office and the folks who led, and there were a number of uh temporary ambassadors, Chargers the Bear, they're called, um, had open door policies. And what it uh, in my opinion, uh engendered was um, first of all, it sort of stripped mid-level leadership of uh any power uh because uh a brand new junior officer could go up to the front office and talk to the Charger about something that their uh mid-level boss said they couldn't do or a decision that they didn't like. And not, I mean, not on like EEO violations, yes, but on I my boss said that I had to um work in this window on Tuesday and not that window. Can you do something about it? Yes, and so I don't I prefer not to say that I had a closed door policy, I did not have an open door policy, okay. And that was my responsibility to mid-level officers. You get to make decisions, you get to lead. And as long as your decision is legitimate, I'm I'm gonna stay out of it. I don't, whether your folks like it or not, if you made a legitimate considered decision and it's not illegal and it's not harassment, that's a decision you get to make. We can have a conversation about what I might have done, but I don't want to undermine middle. We just talked about leadership at the State Department. Yes. We do no favors to mid-level leaders by saying the people who work for you can go around you. And so I made the decision, and by the way, there are given the gap in leadership at that embassy, the five and a half years, I had to make decisions that very often were not liked, right? I I made decisions that people thought were uh were mean, um, decisions that people thought were harsh. And as a leader, one of the things that I want to impress upon people is that once you have made a decision, you no longer have control over what people think about it. And you're you're wrong to spend too much time thinking about what people are gonna think and making the decision. The example is uh without getting too deeply into who there was a family member who had done some things wrong, was harassing people in the mission, had gotten into an altercation at the at the residential compound, and I had to make a decision about whether to fire this person and send them away from the embassy. And the right decision was to fire them, right? That at work, the place they worked in the embassy, they were uh harassing their colleagues. Um but by sending this person home, I was also gonna have to send home their spouse who was in the Foreign Service. Technically, I wasn't gonna have to send home the spouse. The spouse had a decision to make. I'm removing your spouse from the country. Yes, you can go with them, or you can stay here without them. Once I made the decision, that couple got to say whatever they wanted to about that decision. They could say the ambassador doesn't know what he's talking about, he's mean, my partner didn't do anything, and I'm trying to run a mission, an important mission in the Middle East. I can't chase behind them and explain to everyone my rationale.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Right? And so when I say leadership is hard and requires sacrifice, I mean my given name is Timmy. I like being liked. I'm a nice guy, but in a leadership position, that's not Kerman. Right? And if I had let this person stay, a large population at the embassy would say he's just like all the rest. This isn't gonna get better for us. The people that person worked for would say no one's coming to help us.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Right? And so, yep, I did not have an open door policy, but here's what I did do: hundreds of people work there, local employees. I started what's called the Big Block of Cheese program, um, where every single local employee, from drivers to garbage collectors to cafeteria workers to maintenance people, every single one of them got a 15-minute meeting with me in my office. They'd never, none of them had ever been to the ambassador's office, where I sat and I talked about their lives and their families and what I could do better and what they needed. And so I didn't have an open door policy because I don't want someone coming in and saying I don't like my boss. But I invited every single person at the mission in individually to have time because it's important for them to know I care. And so, you know, you ask what I might do different, um you know, I could have been uh more um I could have communicated more early on what my policy was going to be and the why around it. I did, but maybe people could have been reminded of it, but in truth, the decisions that I had to make, the same population that didn't understand it and was upset was going to be upset anyway, no matter no matter what I did. So um, so I I I I live with it. I think about those decisions all the time, but I part of being a good leader is living with it.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

While ambassador, uh, do you recall any particular moment that was a learning moment from you that came from a subordinate or a foreign counterpart?

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Um yeah, I mean, look, I I told someone once about being ambassador. You know, this is new to me. I've never been an ambassador before, right? I'm gonna be learning some things. Um uh the way I talked about um Cutter and the way I talked about where they were ahead of the World Cup um was probably a little too um critical. Um, or the words I used were critical. I was brand new, they didn't know who they were getting as ambassador, and so, you know, I got called in to the foreign ministry to have a conversation about some things that I said, and I completely understood their point of view. Uh, but again, I was new and I was learning. Um, and so, you know, I you'll you'll find when we're doing this, having this conversation, I'm very careful about the words that I use, not necessarily about the thoughts that I want to express, but I'm mindful of how it lands for people. I also, from inside the embassy, um I'm super transparent. And I think one of the things I learned was that doesn't land the same way for everyone. Right? I um I tend to trust uh people a great deal. And so I'll say what I'm thinking about an issue or a topic. Um, and I've learned that I need to know who I'm speaking to, I need to know what the group is, the amalgam, what their motivations are. Um, and so uh in some ways it makes me sad to have to be uh a little. Uh more guarded uh in what I say. But I think I also learned that being part of a um uh an organization where you want to be a good leader also means knowing you knowing your audience internally as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Well, communication is key. Uh for the longest time I always thought communication can be tied 95% of the time to success or failure of any activity, endeavor, whatnot. And then I turned that into 99%. And also I think at the end of the day, there are moments that there are just some people I think they're not going to hear what it is one is communicating. It just uh and I think that's a different I've had this particular experience in my own life. I've uh a handful of people that I tried and tried again. Um, and you know, I I still to this day blame myself that I could not find the way to communicate with them. Um, but at some point I think one has to decide to simply move on. And you either say, okay, it was my fault. Uh, I didn't, I was unable to find the proper means of communication, or just simply move on and say maybe it wasn't me. But either way, you have to move forward. Um regarding your time uh leading uh the the mission there in Qatar. So what is it like managing such a critical partnership uh in such a uh hot zone, so to say?

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Yeah, I look, I I would tell people as the luckiest ambassador in the world, it's it's what you hope for, right? It's important foreign policy issues, uh, it's uh a mission that has a lot of moving parts, whether it's Intel or military, uh that massive base out there, Alligate Air Base. We had um Afghan refugees uh on uh one of the bases there. So that um entry process was ongoing. Uh Cutter's uh relationship to um uh Israel Gaza. Um it was everything. The World Cup was the first thing that happened when I got there. I used to joke that the Treasury Department should have suspended my pay during the World Cup because what a dream uh I was living. Um uh it is uh it was everything, sort of alpha to Omega. Um and so it was a it was a great, great job. Um one of the one of the things that happens in the Foreign Service is the bigger the issues become, the more Washington pays attention, which is great, but also the more Washington gets involved, it wants to be there and maybe micromanage parts of the relationship. Uh finding a way uh to uh maintain some value uh to certain conversations was uh a learning experience for me. I think I I think I did that. Um but um, you know, in truth, one of the reasons that I was able to make the decision to retire was that being ambassador to Cutter from 2022 to 2025 was really a full experience. I think about being ambassador other places. And um, you know, I hard to believe it would be much more um exciting um and fulfilling than being ambassador to to cutter. Um and so uh I was really fortunate. Most days were were were magic.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Um over 20 years ago, Qatar uh actually happened to be a country that uh donated a hundred million dollars to New Orleans as part of a post-Katrina rebuilding effort.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Um did this ever surface what's that a point I made often while I was ambassador.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Okay. Um, and I I don't think the Qataris have ever asked for anything in return. Um they did not. And what would you like for listeners to be aware of regarding not only uh uh Qataris but also the Middle East in general? What what are misconceptions uh that you have encountered in your life that you'd like to address right now?

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Look, I um you know a great epiphany for me occurred when I was a very junior officer and I left Guatemala after five months to go to Najaf, uh Iraq. Um I got to see that most of the life of an Iraqi um was getting up, going to work, taking care of their kids, uh hoping to get home safely, hoping for a better life for their children. The common experience is something that I think a lot of Americans don't get to win. Because, you know, the Middle East makes the news when there's something like what's going on now, conflict, right? There aren't a lot of uh shows on HGTV or Bravo about the daily lives of uh folks in the Middle East, but in fact, um their lives aren't that different from ours, right? In what they want to do within their family and for their futures. It's important to note. Secondly, um there are good leaders and bad leaders, there are um uh efforts at advancing their individual countries in the region. Um not everything that happens in this region is nefarious. Not everything that occurs from a country hoping to make its way in the world um is anti-West or anti-US. Um, want to have a better relationship with Europe, better relationship with the United States. Obviously, Iran um uh isn't one of them, uh, but Iran isn't the entire region. The the other countries in the region have issues with Iran. We are more alike in that way than we are different. And so for your listeners, uh, I would just say that there is um a full whole um uh society and uh life occurring in this region, um, just like other regions of the world. Um, and sometimes you have to be in it to see it. Uh but in fact um there is um generally a respect for Americans, desire to know America and Americans better. Um, and that presents an opportunity, I think, for um uh uh affirming uh and advancing peace. Uh but as with everything um in uh in international relations or foreign policy, it ultimately comes down to people. Um and so uh, you know, my hope is that more people will take the opportunity to know people not just in the Middle East but around the world, uh, because there's a very common experience that there is uh there is a difference in architecture um and uh mealtime um uh and music.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Is there anything that a Qatari shared with you? You know, hey ambassador, uh, or if you were on friendly terms, uh Tim, um this is something we would like Americans to know about us. Did you ever have one of those moments?

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Yeah, um I guess I had a few of those of those moments. Um in Cutter in particular, it's interesting. Many, many of Cutter's leaders were educated in the United States, and they weren't educated at just Harvard and Yale or Southern Cal. Like some of them went to North Carolina Central or Eastern Washington, and so what sticks with me as an answer to your question is you know, I've had cutteries want me to remind Americans that they know America in a way that is overlooked, right? Because they didn't just go to the coast, they went to the heart of America for their education, whether they're running the biggest bank uh in the Middle East, whether they're running a billion-dollar business, right? They went to Texas State, they went to places that um uh maybe Americans aren't even familiar with. They're so sort of inside our country. That's the message that um that I've been asked to pass is that not only do they know America uh from what America jacks out into the world, but that they have been there and lived there and experienced and been welcomed in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Very briefly for a moment, because it's not the purpose of the discussion, other than tying into decision making and the practices that we put into place that others then have to follow through on with the current conflict uh uh that we're engaged in with Iran, Iran. Um what would you identify as a concern? So this is independent of you know whether we should be involved in this conflict or not, it's not about that. Uh, but again, in any conflict, justified or not, you open Pandora's box. So what would be a concern that you've particularly focused on uh observing everything as it's happened that you're not quite convinced maybe others are taking into consideration and that you would like them to?

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Yeah, so I I won't I won't go too deeply into this, uh, but look, Iran was before this conflict sort of headed toward an inflection point um at any rate. Um uh the Ayatollah few around him were sort of the last of the revolutionaries. Um this conflict has sort of changed the the chemistry within the country. Um and it will take us some time to understand who the new Iran is. Um, and so uh, you know, I think my concern is that um, you know, we will spend a good bit of time trying to understand uh the new leadership in the country, trying to understand um uh whether or not they want to be um part of uh the international community, um, but also dealing with the reaction from their neighbors around mistrust, around opportunity, um uh, and around their own futures. An example of which is um, you know, the countries in the Gulf, um, UAE, Saudi, uh, Qatar had done a decent job of presenting themselves as an alternative to Europe or Asia for tourism. Um, that's halted, right? It'll be some time before someone and some family in the United States makes a decision between going to Vienna or going to Al Ulah in Saudi Arabia, right? They're definitely going to Vienna at the moment. Um, and so um all of that will have to be rebuilt and confidence in it will have to be rebuilt, and it will take some time. Um, and there will be lost opportunity in that.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

On a lighter note, global leadership experience brought to the local level. How'd you end up choosing New Orleans as now your your post-retirement home?

SPEAKER_01 56:36

Yeah, um, so uh we've got a long history with New Orleans. Obviously, I haven't lived here in a long, long time. Um first I love the city, right? Uh Jazz Fest uh starts tomorrow, basically, and um there's very little as magical as uh as Jazz Fest. I could live in New York or DC. It would probably be better for me um in my private sector life. Um, but having enjoyed living around the world for years and years, um, I wanted to the benefit of living in a truly unique and American city and taking in all that it has to offer. Um Bob Dylan, as you probably know, once said, there are lots of places I like uh in the world. I just like New Orleans better. Like that's um that's enough for me. And if it means I've got to get on planes uh every week, then that's what I'll do. I feel like New Orleans is worth it.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Yes. Um, well, I I kind of phrased it to folks. No, I left, you know, uh subsequent to the events of 9-11. Um, you know, I don't regret the path that I chose, but I regret leaving New Orleans.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

Yeah, that's about right.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

It's an oxymoron, but it's the only way I can truly convey the deeper meaning of it. Um how could a place like New Orleans uh or any uh small city in the United States take advantage of uh subnational diplomatic efforts?

unknown 58:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Subnational diploma is a big deal. Uh I've been pushing it for years. Um the thing I say uh outside of the United States is the beauty of the United States is there are 50 states, which means 50 cultures, 50 sets of uh tax incentives, 50 sets of opportunities. Uh a place like New Orleans, um, which already has a very international sort of outlook, um uh also has an energy industry, also has uh great culture. I can tell you the countries uh in the Middle East are interested in culture, interested in museums and advancing the arts for youth. These are all things that uh New Orleans can use to attract uh investment and visitors uh globally. Um look, it's a hard thing to do. You saw the last mayor of New Orleans uh took a great deal of heat for her travel, for her international travel. Um uh but uh the future of a great city uh requires some uh linkage uh abroad. It just does. And and um New Orleans needs to figure out how to do that. Um uh New York City is a particular thing, but New York City has NYPD liaisons in the Middle East and in countries around the world. They absolutely are dedicated to the idea that they are bigger than their geography. Uh a city like New Orleans has a lot to offer, uh, but it's got to find a way to tell its story. Um I haven't yet made uh contact with the the new mayor's office, but I will to make sure that uh I am offering my support and my best advice and perspective as New Orleans thinks about its uh its global image and uh a global initiative.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

Um what advice would you give to young professionals uh competing in elite environments or any environment for that matter? And especially when now, for many of them, they consider AI to be the thing to compete with, so not necessarily just the environment.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

Yeah, and it's a great question. The way that you make yourself um undeniable um isn't by being the smartest person in the room, isn't by uh flashing your resume or where you went to school. It is this thing that I talked about earlier about being hard to bother and doing whatever is necessary for the mission. In a world of AI and automation, the way you stand out is by being willing to do whatever is necessary, whether it is um uh some high-minded or hypolutant job, whether it is the most minor detail of the organization, that is how you distinguish yourself. You're not going to be plucked from obscurity, you're not gonna have uh necessarily some brilliant moment that is going to make you skip all of the parts. It will happen for some. But if you want to have staying power, if you want to make a difference, if you want to be well-liked, if you want to be chosen, you will do the quiet, necessary things that advance the organization. And leaders will see you and it will make a difference. It's such a hard thing to do because most everyone got to where they are based on you know how smart they are or some um uh unique trait. But then you get put into, you mentioned elite environments, you get put in this environment where everyone's an all-star, and really the only way to distinguish yourself is by being being willing to do whatever's necessary for the team. And you'll be shocked at how few people follow your example, right? You'll be unique in this.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

On that note, what piece of advice would you give to someone who everything intellectually, emotionally, um is telling them they're moving along the right path. But financially, it's not doing anything at the moment. Uh and they still don't have enough assets in terms of uh collaborative partners. Um how you know whether they should continue proceeding or say, I'm on a fool's errand, I need to abandon this and move on. Again, and I'll I'll end up using unfortunately Fidel Castro as a young revolutionary as the example uh when he initially landed on on the shores of Cuba uh and they were surrounded by Batista elements, and everybody thought they were lost, you know, the exercise in the Cuban Revolution was over. And his response to his colleagues was we have them right where we want them.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

When is it a matter of insanity and actual uh well-focused uh ambition towards a higher goal?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

Yeah, so look, it takes some uh some uh perspicacity, right? There are, if you think that you are in the right place and you're learning and growing, but economically it is not paying off, you have to make a decision about the value of what you're learning and doing. I can tell you in my own career, for a good number of years, I was making the salary of someone who was very junior because I was very junior, right? I was working for uh Secretary Clinton, I was working at the White House, I was getting jobs that were for people in the senior foreign service, which I wasn't, and so wasn't being paid in that way, but was doing that work. My mind and heart told me to hang on, right? And then the promotions started coming. And so when I finally landed in the senior foreign service after 15 years, um it sort of accelerated salary-wise and financially. But it was because of all the things I learned when I wasn't making a lot of money, right? The reputation I was building that made that advancement possible. And so a person has to think about can I learn what I'm learning someplace else? When I lift my head up, am I going to be ahead of my peers? Am I going to make more than I would have made? And very often, if you're in the right place and you're feeling it and you're doing well, the answer is yes. And so hang on. But if the value proposition becomes weighted toward salary and income, it's a legitimate way to feel. Then you've got to find that. You've got to find something else. And by the way, if you can learn what you're learning in a lower-paying job at a higher paying job, then you've got to be willing to make that decision as well, uh, if that's what's most important to you. But very often the things you learn in jobs that aren't paying you particularly a lot of money will make it so one day you reach a level where it comes really quickly and you're more than caught up. And so that's a perspective to hold.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

As we come to a close, any final thoughts that you'd like to share with the listeners?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

Look, I'm grateful for the conversation that we've had. You know, I've spoken a lot about leadership. Um, leadership is hard, um, it's not linear. Um you are doing it wrong if you stop learning as a leader. I'm a fan of my leadership style, but it is organic. It lives. Some things don't survive, and some things need to be added. And so it is always a work in progress. Figure out what your leadership style is, figure out what's important to you, take opportunities that are challenging, um, and grow and feel that growth. And um uh there's so much to learn out there that we should all be dedicated as students of people, of colleagues, of uh leadership itself. Um, and we should chew the scenery. And so uh I'm grateful to have a chance to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

Well, thank you very much. Um, it's been great hearing the experiences and observations uh that you've shared with us to our listeners. Thank you for joining us on Brungart Laws Lanyat, where we provide a little extra perspective because the devil's always in the details. Please invite others to listen. Let us know what you think. Ambassador, again, gratitude. Thank you.