Protecting the People Creating Culture | The Ella Project

New Orleans is celebrated around the world for its music, art, food, and traditions. So, what protects the people who create that culture?

In this episode, Maurice Brungardt speaks with Ashlye Keaton and Gene Meneray of The Ella Project about the legal, business, and policy challenges facing Louisiana artists. From intellectual property rights and Mardi Gras Indian copyright protections to arts funding, affordability, artificial intelligence, and the future of New Orleans' cultural economy, they explore what it takes to sustain the artists and culture bearers who drive one of America's most distinctive creative ecosystems.

Ashlye Keaton is a New Orleans-based intellectual property and entertainment attorney, educator, and cultural advocate. She co-founded The Ella Project, where she provides pro bono legal services to artists, musicians, filmmakers, and culture bearers throughout Louisiana. She is widely recognized for her work protecting Mardi Gras Indian intellectual property rights and teaches at both Tulane Law School and the University of New Orleans.

Gene Meneray is a co-founder of The Ella Project and a longtime arts administrator and cultural advocate. A native New Orleanian, he has held leadership roles with the Arts Council of New Orleans, the Louisiana Crafts Guild, and YAYA (Young Aspirations Young Artists), and currently serves as Chair of the Louisiana State Arts Council. His work focuses on strengthening the intersection of culture, entrepreneurship, and economic development. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

New Orleans is globally recognized for its culture, music, art, carnival traditions, food. They form the identity not only of the city, but arguably of Louisiana itself. Yet many of the people who create that culture operate without the legal, financial, or institutional protections that exist in other industries. They are individuals navigating contracts, intellectual property disputes, rising costs, unstable income, and institutions that often celebrate culture symbolically while underinvesting in the people creating it. What does it actually take to sustain culture? Welcome to Brungart Law's Lanyette, where we provide a little extra perspective through conversations with individuals from across the spectrum of society. I'm Maurice Brungart, your host. I enjoy engaging with experienced, knowledgeable, and passionate people for the opportunity it affords to enrich our understanding of the world through their eyes. The more we learn, the more likely we can become better versions of ourselves and guide others towards the same. Today we have two special guests, Ashley Keaton and Jean Meneray, who are from the Ella Project. Ashley Keaton is an intellectual property and entertainment attorney, educator, and cultural advocate based in New Orleans. She co-founded the Ella Project, a nonprofit providing pro bono legal and business services to Louisiana artists, musicians, and culture bearers. Over more than two decades, she has become one of the leading legal advocates for New Orleans culture, particularly through her work protecting artist intellectual property rights and advocating for policies impacting the city's cultural ecosystem. She also serves as an adjunct professor at both Tulane Law School and University of New Orleans, and is widely recognized for her work involving Mardi Gran Indian copyright protections. Jean Meneray, also co-founder of the Ella Project, is a longtime arts administrator, cultural advocate. A native New Orleanian and Tulane graduate, Jean has worked extensively at the intersection of culture, entrepreneurship, and economic development, including leadership roles with the Arts Council of New Orleans, the Louisiana Crafts Guild, and Young Aspirations Young Artist, otherwise known as Yaya. Through the Ella Project, he has helped Louisiana artists and musicians navigate the business realities of sustaining creative careers while advocating for policies that strengthen the region's cultural economy. He also has taught arts business at the University of New Orleans and currently serves as chair of the Louisiana State Arts Council. Ashley Gene, thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Thank you, Maurice.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Absolutely. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Well, why don't you share with the audience a bit how you were initially influenced that set you on the path where you find yourselves today?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Sure. Um I actually um was uh had a private practice um after graduating from law school and worked at a boutique entertainment law firm and represented a a lot of musicians and and other um folks in the in the um New Orleans arts community. And and Jean and I, you know, I I met Jean when I was still an intern um in law school when when I was volunteering for um the local uh arts council. So um I was uh volunte volunteering as a legal intern um working to try to help match some of the arts council's clients with with lawyers and um following that experience you know Jean and I Gene and I um partnered with with another organization called the Tippet called the Tipitinas Foundation and Tulane Law School, uh their department of public public service. Um we we partnered to develop the programming that we still operate today. We we called it the Entertainment Law Legal Assistance Project back then, but now it's just the Ella Project. And and that's where we get started.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Gene, what about you? What set you on the path uh that brought you here today?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah, Maurice, you know, you mentioned in your intro, I did grow up in the city of New Orleans, and I grew up in New Orleans in the 1990s, and uh at the time I think New Orleans was undergoing a very challenging part of its existence. Um, the city's economy had been significantly damaged by the 1987 oil busts. There was uh there was a pretty significant crime problem the city had, and what I saw was that a lot of the people who I went to school with, both in high school and in university, you know, were leaving and they were going to other cities, even though they loved the culture of New Orleans and they really wanted to live here, but economically and quality of life was bringing them to other markets. And so I looked at whatever my skills were, and it really came from a selfish vision of I wanted more of my friends to be here. And so I said, okay, well, what can I do? And I looked at it and I said, Well, we all we all really love the culture here, and we all think that the culture can be something that can bring in people from around the country and can keep people who want to be in New Orleans to stay in New Orleans, and so um there was a job opening at the time at the local arts council, and you know, they weren't offering a lot of money, um, but they were willing to take me on, and that began work in arts business. So that was the art the arts council's arts business program initially, and came in there. As Ashley said, we met in the early 2000s where she was a student, and then we were really trying to devise a more effective pro bono legal program. And uh we were able to do that till about 2016 with that as a program of Tulane, Tim Patinas Foundation, the Arts Council of New Orleans. And then we realized it was time for us to spread our wings a little bit. So about 10 years ago, we spun off when we became an independent nonprofit, focused on those core tenets of you know direct pro bono legal assistance for artists, arts, business development, and cultural advocacy.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Well, when y'all got the Ella project uh up and running, what was that first year like for both y'all? And Gene, we'll let you start first.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

So I think for us as an independent organization, it was interesting because we'd taken our time. As I'd said, we were an embedded program for about 12 years. And so we already had a list of potential supporters, we had a program model that we believed worked, but it was the time to then actually launch independently and figure out some of the other things that we never had to deal with previously, you know, dealing with the the standard non-fund part of starting an organization, payroll and insurance and office leases and you know, equipment purchases and all that. But, you know, because because we'd taken our time, because we done our research, I mean, Ashley and I began talking about making the move to spin this off into an independent organization probably five years before we actually did it. So I think that we'd we'd taken time, we'd done our homework, and we prepared some of our supporters that this may be something that would happen so they could come over with us. You know, as a pro bono organization, we only exist through the support of individuals, foundations, government entities that believe in our work. And, you know, I always like to say hire us to do the work for them, um, of making sure that artists have full representation and can compete in the global marketplace. And so, you know, taking that and becoming like, well, we're really good programmers, but now we also are running an organization. There's a little bit of a learning curve, but I think because we did take the time in the beginning, it wasn't as steep as it might be for some.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Ashley, um, for you, what misconceptions do people have about the mechanics behind the culture of New Orleans, specifically the musicians and and the uh visual artist?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

The mechanics. Um I think there's a lot of misconceptions. There's there's a misconception that that New Orleans artists don't want to um don't want to engage in the business of their art, the business of their music. Um, and I think a lot of that is simply because there's not a whole lot of business infrastructure in the city. And there's just not historically not a lot of resources. But I've my experience is is that my clients are hungry for more knowledge and and they want to um they they they strive to develop their their content, you know, into what is ultimately a business, right? Because you're a business if you're an artist, whether you know you have an independent entity or not. Um and so you know that's that's you know one of the things that you know we we um focus hard on, which is to you know help our clients identify um the frameworks and the operating protocol for you know doing business, whether you know they're exploiting their content in an online marketplace, whether they're distributing music, whether they're you know, just not just performing, but you know, performing gigs. You know, some of our musician clients are you know, they some of them record music and some of them just perform live, right? Um, and so we we like to help work with our clients, you know, intimately to help them to develop models that work for them in a way that you know the ease is you know what is you know widely considered, you know, the burden of operating a business, right? Um because these days, you know, you have to wear a ton of different hats just to, you know, um, just to you know get your music out there, right? Or to, you know, to you know, weather or to um you know license your artwork or or to um you know produce a documentary film, right? Because you're the marketer, you're the I mean you're the business owner owner, you're the marketeer, you're the um, you're the contractor, right? Um, but you're also the content creator. And so, you know, there's that you there's that balancing act of of operating a business um while you're also in the creative process. And we like to ensure that that you know our clients do have um access to the resources to engage in best practices, to ensure that they can control their content, that they don't give it away, that they you know have um that they maximize earning potential and opportunities, and that they maintain leverage in transacting with third parties, because most people who are doing business are engaging in transactions to some degree. And the idea is to uh work very proactively with our clients to establish these models on based on you know best business practices and to um prevent you know disaster from happening to the extent that we can, the extent that you know it's foreseeable. Um when I was my private practice, one of the one of the um one of the unfortunate lessons that you know I learned that that inspired me to get into this line of work was that you know some of the most talented musicians, for instance, in the city, some of some of them are being house household names, right? You you know a lot of them, it wouldn't access legal, um legal resources because they couldn't afford it. And they would come to my law office, you know, with a problem that was so massive that you know that it was almost impossible, you know, in some situations to untangle. And you know, with with our model um of providing services, we're able to kind of ward that sort of situation off by you know providing these services without the the cost that's normally associated with it. So so that you know, with with hope, um, if our clients, you know, um seek our representation, you know, before they're in a problem, that that'll prevent them from getting in such a such a uh a bad mess, um, where you know there is no justice whatsoever. Um, I don't know if I answered your question, but I think it's probably time for me to stop talking.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

So well, then we'll give Gene a chance uh to comment. Can you think of comparable uh cities to New Orleans that actually have, you know, it sounds a bit uh like an uh cliche, but an ecosystem that actually supports its artistic culture?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

It's a good question. I think that it depends on where you look at that. You know, there's certainly plenty of cities that put in more government funding than New Orleans does. There's plenty of cities with larger foundation communities than our city has. And, you know, there are cities where, especially at the high end, uh the cities have invested in very fabulous museums, symphony orchestras, opera houses. Um but, you know, when you look at the day-to-day, I think that New Orleans supports its artists through the people of New Orleans who are going to go out to the shows, who are going to attend the second line parades, who are going to go out to the festivals and and you know, not just watch the music, but buy from the food vendors as well. You know, we we have a large art market scene in the city of New Orleans where artists are paying a nominal fee setting up in the heat and the rain sometimes and selling their original art. Um so it doesn't always have to go through the galleries. And I think I think that's what makes it interesting. So while we certainly see a great need for further government support of the arts in the city, you know, statewide Louisiana is 46 per capita in funding the arts. Um, that's not where we would want to be, and especially from the New Orleans perspective, because so much cultural activity comes through the city of New Orleans. A better number for Louisiana supporting the arts is better for the city. Uh, the city has made some progress in the last couple of years in setting up new funding mechanisms, which I think is great. Um, regulations, sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad. You know, I think that it's probably an easy argument that the city is overly bureaucratic to a lot of industries. Um arts is arts is one of them. There are certainly aspects to street parading, to live music, um, to public performance that, you know, sometimes the government is is more harmful than helpful. But but overall, I think what you see is that the the population embraces the culture so deeply and so innately, and it's so much a part of their day-to-day existence. And for so many of them, it's the reason that they're here. I mean, think about all the people who you've talked to who you go, why did you move to New Orleans? And they say, Well, I, you know, I came from Mardi Gras one time and I just realized I I had to be here, or I came to the Jazz Fest, or you know, I found myself at a at a nightclub on Frenchman Street at two in the morning in a sweaty July, and realized like this was the place that I could be happy. And so we know that the the population supports culture, and we know that the culture is integral to their life here. So um I think we we don't support it in the traditional ways that you would find in a Houston or New York City, but but we do in our own way, and I think that it works.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Uh Ashley, what are some of the common legal issues you find uh that your clients come to you, come to the Ella project uh with?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Sure. Um most of them, most of the legal issues are around the protection of their content, right? So it's they're intellectual property driven. So, you know, their the interest that they have in their copyright, um in their branding for the trademarks, um, right of publicity is a is a common one, especially these days. These people are using you know, name, image, and likeness, people that outside of the industry even, um that that's that's a that's a a hot topic these days. Um, but you know, I do a lot of boring contract work, right? I mean, because you have to, you know, when you're transacting around, you know, the content, I mean, that's the you have to have a there's contracts that are that are uh negotiated and and drafted and and um you know that's the regardless of of the nature of or the creative nature of the work, that's just like you know, mundane legal stuff, right? So um a lot of a lot of contract drafting, you know, licensing, that sort of thing. So filmmakers, you know, if uh if I have a documentary filmmaker that that um you know comes to me with a with a project and doesn't have any contracts, then then you know I help them get together the independent contractor agreements that they have with their crew and and you know their the with the uh camera people and the and the uh editors and you know all of the people that that are involved in in the development of a film. And then I help them clear the music that they're using um in their film. You know, you have to clear the compositions and and and the sound recordings, right, for that kind of usage. I've helped people with distribution agreements for you know um online streaming platforms and and that sort of thing. So, you know, while it is, while most of the work is specific to you know intellectual property um and certain creative content, the the actual legal services involve just a lot of a lot of transactions. And every now and then, you know, I've I was joking um um at some point because last year was like a really contentious year. Like it, I I had for whatever reason, I don't know if Mercury was in retrograde the whole year or what, but I had I don't know how many cease and desist letters and letters of demand that went out last year. That was unusual though, but but we do have you know disputes that come up and we work to resolve them. And we have a pretty good rate of resolution too. So um because I I kind of like that. But um, but yeah, that's you know, just a a lot of a lot of transactions and a lot of negotiating.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

Have you found the legal issues over the last 20 years to have sort of remain the same, or have you seen a transition uh in terms of the issues they come to you with?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Well, some are the same. Um, you know, when it comes to protecting content, a lot of that has hasn't changed fundamentally, right? But I do think that our clients, the issues that we see today are more complicated in some ways than they were at the outset. And a lot of that is just because I think that, you know, with access to information, um, our clients have they have they have they have more complicated questions and they have, you know, they have um they have a better understanding, like a baseline for for engaging in transactions and for doing business. And because of that, you know, the the more elevated, you know, they are insofar as the background that they have, the more complicated, you know, the issues are going to be for me to um for me to reason out with them, right? But um, but it's a it's a good thing. It's not, it's not that they're that it's not that they're overly complicated, they're just they're just more complex. And and that that's because our clients are actually doing business. And I think that, you know, to some degree with the democratization of access to you know technology, I just held up my phone and I realized I'm blurred. But um, you know, everyone has access to the internet now. You know, everyone's got a smartphone for years. You know, most of my clients, most of my clients still don't have um PCs, right? But everyone has a phone now. So people are able to access information that they weren't able to for decades, right? And so that's that's contributed to some of the shifts that we've seen as well.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

So speaking of legal issues, and Gene, I'm gonna borrow Ashley for uh just a few minutes longer, and uh tell us uh tell the audience a little bit about the Mardi Gras Indians and the copyright protection uh that you helped uh them with.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Sure. So you know, Mardi Gras Indians won't get into um the cultural background or their history because the the I there's a there's an uh unwritten rule that's that um you let the Mardi Gras Indians you know explain explain their um history and their um their development. As a culture, but but they make these elaborate, hand-sewn, like gorgeous um suits that are not what you know you and I think of as a suit, right? They're these um ornate, uh hand-beaded, um intricate works of work, they're they're sculptural works is what they are, but but they um they're worn uh as part of their cultural ritual. And they um these suits are made typically once a year, and it takes you know hours and hours and hours. You know, some Mardi Gras Indians spend you know up to 40 hours a week, especially, especially as Mardi Gras draws near, and they you know wear these suits three times a year on Mardi Gras, um Super Sunday, and St. Joseph's night, typically. And so, you know, these suits can weigh up to like 150 pounds. Um, they're typically between 75 and 150 pounds, depending on um, depending on the the scope and the scale. And um they're just masterful, um uh beautiful displays of of of artistry. And for years, um, you know, for well for decades, some would argue centuries, well, not centuries given that the that the camera is only um I forget when what year the camera was invented, but but um often was the case, and still still can be the case, that you know, people would sell photographs of Mardi Gras Indians without their permission and without any form of compensation. I don't think the the bigger issue was without permission. And it was unequitable because some of these photographs were going for quite a bit of money, right? And you know, the at one point, you know, one of the Mardi Gras Indians came to me and you know asked what to do about it, and it was very obvious to me. My mother was an art teacher and said, well, that's copyright infringement, right? Um, because I I knew the culture well enough to know that, to know how they developed this their suits and that, you know, they were they're born out of artistry, right? And I knew that, you know, the Mardi Gras Indians, you know, wear clothing under their suits because they're these suits are so dysfunctional that that they have to be removed when they're um when they're being adorned, when they're being worn on you know one of these three days a year because they're they're you know, you'd have a heat stroke otherwise, right? So you have to you have a crew that follows you and helps you like remove them so you can like get a breath and then and then you know you you put it back on and then you go back out there, right? Um with the crew. And so so I never thought of them as as costumes, right? Because costumes are functional and therefore they're not subject to copyright protection. I've I said, you know, these are these are sculptures, they're just you know, they're just instead of being on a mannequin or being on a you know two by four in a museum, they're you know, worn over a person. And so we argued and um well, actually we didn't have to argue with the copyright office. Um I filed an application for copyright registration of of a suit and secured that and and you know, I knew that they were copyrightable, but it I had to, I had to frame it the right way so that so that the copyright office would agree and and you know that that required a little bit of um just not so much maneuvering, but you know, figuring out how what language to use so that they would not consider these works costumes, right? And deny the the registration. But we were able to successfully secure copyright registr uh copyright registration, which um which had transformational effects, as it turns out. Um there's a Mardi Gras Indian that's featured at the Venice Bienale, which is a like considered the the premier um art uh biennial in the world right now. And I mean that was just not even, this was not part of like the dialogue that was happening, um, not even 10 years ago. But you know, I think that that that within this culture, you know, I mean, I I think it's I think it was obvious that they were creating artwork, but I think that securing this registration and really couching the creation of these suits is more than just, well, I mean, it's not to undermine the cultural ritual because that's the most important part, but as as part of the creation of works of fine art is has had tremendous effects. Um did one of we had a um Mardi Gras Indian design this the logo for the Super Bowl a couple of years ago here. I mean, these, you know, they're there these suits are being display um are on display in museums, like world-class museums, you know, across the globe. And you know, 20 years ago, that wouldn't have even been heard of. And I I'm not suggesting that the copyright was the driving force, but a lot did change once once these once the Indian um community had had legal legal recourse. And you know, there there were conversations being had about the suits being considered works of art. And for whatever reason, that just wasn't that was not a conversation that was that I bore witness to anyway. And and I'm I I know that um most of most folks in New Orleans didn't think of the suits as works of art back then because they weren't sought after as works of art, but they are now. So that's that's been really, really, really um inspiring to watch develop over time.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

The the artist uh you were talking about, uh the Mardi Gras Indian that went to Venice, uh big chief Demon Melancon, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Yeah, Milan San, Big Chief Demon.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Yes. Um uh Gene. So a couple of weeks ago, the Louisiana legislature sent a couple of bills uh to Governor Landry to sign and support of the aerospace industry and providing all these incentives uh to uh as I was saying, a couple of bills uh were sent to the governor, uh Louisiana, and support of the aerospace industry, a lot of tax incentives and whatnot. Um with that in mind, do you think Louisiana underestimates the degree to which its artistic culture drives tourism, hospitality, and the small business ecosystem?

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Yeah, 100%. And I think that, you know, in some ways we we should know better. But because it is decentralized, it's not necessarily as easy as it is when you put up, you know, a plant where you can say this plant has 2,000 jobs attached to it. Um a lot of our people are small businesses. Now we know how many tourists it brings in, but again, I think that it's also important to think about how many people it keeps here, how many people decide that they want to become full-time residents of Louisiana or remain full-time residents of Louisiana because the culture is here, and that's why it's so essential for government, for economic development, for nonprofit leaders, universities to understand that this is our our leading asset. This is the advantage that so many other states would kill for, and and we have it. And like a lot of things, when that's the case, we you take it for granted. And I think that our leaders do take it for granted. And, you know, I wish they wouldn't. There have been some, as I said, positive changes, especially at the city level over the last 10 years or so. Uh, you know, there's there's slight progress at the state, but the progress is slight. Um the the need to really come in here and treat it like the world-class asset that it is, that should be treated um with the same reverence that we treat professional sports or oil and gas, to me has always been self-evident, but it has not been the case that that's how it's been treated in the political arena, and I and I think we've missed opportunities there.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

What would you recommend that that we do differently?

SPEAKER_01 31:09

I mean, so to begin with, um, you know, one of the major things that states do is they're a funder, and funding is important because it makes sure that arts gets into unrepresented areas, you know. Um the French Quarter doesn't necessarily need tons of art grants, but there are plenty of parishes in Louisiana where this money is the difference between an event taking place and not taking place because they don't have the corporate base. They can't charge high-priced tickets for their for their performance, whether it be a play, whether it be uh a festival, and then especially arts funding supports after-school activities. We all know that Louisiana has lagged in arts education in school. There has been a lot of nonprofits that have picked up the ball and provided a lot of arts education outside of school hours. You know, the Jazz and Heritage Foundation here in New Orleans does a great job with that. Kids Smart in New Orleans does a great job with that. There's a there's a legion of these nonprofits that do it. But they are like many arts nonprofits, they're they're not incredibly well funded. The the staff is usually pulled into doing six or seven different jobs because everyone is uh, you know, it's a it's a ship of two or three, and everyone's involved with making sure everything happens. Adequate state funding makes sure that those programs exist, not just in the Garden District of New Orleans, but in Caldwell Parish, in Tinsas Parish, in Cameron Parish. And that's what you have seen other states do. You know, it's kind of embarrassing, I think, for us to say that right now Mississippi is funding their arts council at twice the level that we are. And there's no reason for that. You know, Mississippi is the poorest state of the union. We're we're not very high, but we're not that. Um, if if Mississippi can do it, Louisiana certainly can too. And by missing that opportunity, I think it does take away from making sure that art gets in the hands of all our citizens. And to me, that's a shame.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

What do you think are the biggest threats to New Orleans culture right now? And I'll I'll throw a few things out. Is it housing cost, insurance, AI, uh institutional neglect, all of the above and more?

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Yeah, I think it's all the above, but I think mostly it's it's just livability, it's affordability. You know, Gene was talking about um people who come to New Orleans and just stay. I was one of those people. I am one of those people, been here a very long time. But um, and I'm not, I wouldn't suggest that I wouldn't be one of those people today, but it'd be a whole lot harder for me now. Um, because this New Orleans, you know, I think one of the reasons why it's why our culture is continues, right? Continues to thrive or has, is because it's affordable, right? I mean, it's a great place to live. There's, you know, we're surrounded by beautiful architecture. Um, you know, it's a port city, but it's it was it's just so so affordable. You could, you could, you could live here with the with the feeling that you know you you like you you were in like you know what Gene described as a cultural Mecca, and you know, pay your bills, right? And I don't know how long, how much I I know that it's it's so much um less affordable than it used to be. That's no secret, but it's it's strikingly so. And and it's you know compounded by a lot of different things, including the insurance crisis that that um you referenced just now, which of course is made worse by you know the infrastructure here, which is crumbling um at best. And you know, I think people are just getting fed up. They're getting fed up because you know, what worked even back in the late 90s, early 2000s, I mean that you know, this including like drainage, right, which doesn't work now at all. Um it wasn't always the best, but it wasn't the worst, right? So we're we're we're now living in a city that is completely busted, right? Um, to a large degree when it comes to functionality, right? Um there's dysfunction everywhere, but we're paying so much for it because of all of the increased costs. I mean, universally that the increased costs that are universal to all Americans, but but you know, um that are particular to a coastal city like New Orleans, you know, and one that is you know historically vulnerable to you know uh devastating climate uh devastating climate um um uh actions, not actions that did devastating well climate change, but also um you know big hurricanes, right? Um and you know, other things that are that that make the city especially vulnerable. And it's you know, the housing costs right now are just insane. So I don't know. I mean, I I I I I feel like that's a it's a big threat to the continuity of our culture because I think again, you know, one of the reasons why New Orleans has been so attractive has been its affordability, and it's it's we're no longer in that position.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah, I would agree with that. And just to jump on, I I think the the infrastructure is the most important issue because I also think it's the most fixable. Whereas, you know, governments have mixed records and being able to address housing affordability, it's a private market in many times. Infrastructure is not so being able to get the streets working, being able to get the stoplights working, being able to work on drainage so that the quality of life is improved, those are things government can do and and hopefully is doing, where you can actually see within 10 years market improvement. And also if they're not doing it, it falls on them too. So it's less about like, oh, you know, it's a world market, it's really complicated. It's like, no, you guys, this is your job to do it. And if you do do it, I think that it will allow more people to stay here and attract more people here. So and that's obviously one of our major goals.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

Uh what do you all think of like the the recent article that came out? Uh, and it and it started almost at the local level, and it was about the slow erosion and and the movement of the coastline inland, and that here in 100, 150 years, New Orleans was going to be underwater, and now is the time to evacuate. And that report, a couple of weeks later, now showed up uh on the CNN website. And I read that, and I also thought this doesn't help New Orleans at all, because you're not talking about in the same report, well, in that case, Miami's also going to be underwater at the same time, and you're not saying Miami needs to evacuate. Uh, so do you find that sometimes New Orleans has to constantly battle stereotypes?

SPEAKER_01 38:32

And I think that that's unfortunate. And I, you know, I think that we personally reject the doomerism that's involved there. Um, and you know, the idea that, well, if you do nothing, this is gonna happen in 150 years. Well, yeah, yes, that's probably true. So, so don't do nothing. Um, and I think that that's that should be easy for everyone to understand, and and hopefully they do, and hopefully it's taken in that way. Where you you should have a call to action. You know, there are things that you should be aware of, but the idea that, oh, you know, the battle was lost. I mean, no, no one who ever starts a nonprofit thinks the battle's lost. It's not in my nature. We we're optimistic people by nature because we believe that that we can affect social change. So we're not gonna be the ones who are gonna give up first. We're probably gonna be the ones who give up last.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Uh the New Orleans Music Census, the Ella Project participated in that. Can y'all elaborate what the census was about, your role, and then more importantly, what did the census reveal?

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Okay, well, I guess I'll I'll I'll tackle this one. So um the census was just a it was exactly what the census is. It was a it was a um survey of of the health of of our um of the music industry and and including you know musicians and music businesses, right? So it was a questionnaire where you know people who were filling out the form um asked that answered some basic questions about you know their their income and you know their quality of life and and you know their general happiness um in New Orleans. And and you know, from that, from that, you know, the the um city was able to mine some data about you know about the actual reality of of a working musician or a music business, like a small venue in New Orleans. I think, you know, for years we speculated a lot about you know how what it was like, you know, what the what the circumstances were um around you know the around the music uh community here. And you know, what the census did was in many ways confirm some of that speculation, but it provided you know real answers to questions that were raised in connection with in connection with the viability of the music scene here.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Yeah, Maurice, you talked about our role. I think it was important for us to play a role to help get the word out to as as many musicians, as many people who were involved professionally, because it wasn't just musicians, it also was, you know, if you were a booking agent for a club or music attorneys or a publicist or or any one of those likes as well. And you know, one of the nice things about it is because it was developed by a friend of ours named Don Pitts, um, and his company, Sound Music Cities, he's done these all over the country, and the questions are the same. And so you get a really nice apples to apples comparison where you can look at how New Orleans uh compares to Nashville or Austin, Texas, or even places in Louisiana like Lafayette. And to me, that was sort of its great function was that you know, we could get data and know how we were doing compared to everybody else. And I think, you know, to no one's real surprise, we're we're doing well in some things, and there's a lot of work to do in other aspects as well. You know, the the economic angle is still a major hurdle. It's hard to make a living playing music in this city, but it also can be done, you know, it's it's not that it's impossible either. Um, I think people saw a great desire for more opportunities, more professional development, more ability to you know get their work outside of the city. But then as Ashley mentioned too, when we were talking about the livability, those concerns were raised as well. And I think that you know, one of the great potentials that New Orleans or any other city has when attracting artists is that these days, for the most part, you can do your art anywhere. You know, you don't have to be necessarily in New York or Los Angeles to do it, you can do it wherever you want. But there's a flip side to that too, is that you can do it anywhere. And so you have to make sure that the city is hospitable and supportive for the artist, or else they could go somewhere else. And you know, I this the census revealed that, and I think that uh it's a charge we all take pretty seriously.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

Um, you said uh in some areas it was revealed that we're doing pretty well, or New Orleans is doing pretty well. Could you identify uh what areas?

SPEAKER_01 43:42

I think when you see the there's a general appreciation that people found for their work amongst uh other citizens, they felt like they felt like that they were supported by the community, even if that didn't necessarily mean they're supported by the public sector, um, that they were opportunities. Especially as far as festivals and live music was concerned, that there's more recording that you think. Well, it's certainly not a hub of recording and never will be, but they're there are working studios in town that are that are top flight and can put products out there. So I think that that put us in a place where we were like, okay, you know, and especially because again, we're comparing it to apples to apples. A lot of times you're thinking, well, you know, in this other community, it's everything's perfect. And then you look and you say, okay, well, here's how we do shape up to Austin as far as public perception and how the musicians feel welcomed. Okay, well, this is pretty good, actually. Um, that there are these other business opportunities that, you know, are not what you're gonna find in New York and Los Angeles, but but aren't nil either. And I think sometimes the perception is it's nil and it's not nil. It's developed, it needs to be developed further, but but it's not nothing. And and that sort of put numbers behind that sentiment.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Uh Ashley, uh question. Do you find that artists uh are signing agreements they fundamentally do not understand?

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Sure. I'm yeah, absolutely, to the extent that they are. Um you know, what if they're not if they're not accessing, you know, an attorney, then you know, most of these contracts are super complicated, right? They can be. Not all of them are, but a lot of them are. And and you know, I mean, they contain legal terminology that you don't I wouldn't expect an artist to understand. Um, I wouldn't expect anyone to understand um outside of you know practicing um and practicing the law. So so absolutely. But you know, if they're coming, if they're seeking our services, then then they um they shouldn't be signing anything they don't completely understand. And that's that's what my job is.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

Over time, uh the different artists that y'all have interacted with, whether it's music or visual or whatnot, have y'all found there to be extraordinarily talented artists uh born and bred in New Orleans, but they've left because they simply cannot survive economically here in the city?

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Sometimes. Sometimes people, you know, well sometimes people leave here and they, you know, they um move to Los Angeles. There's you know a lot, a lot of um, a lot of industry out there. There's a lot of you know, a lot of resources, a lot of uh business infrastructure um in Nashville and New York, but you know, a lot of people like it in New Orleans enough to stay here. So it really just depends.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yeah, I I would dovetail on that. I think that there's there's certainly plenty who look for economic opportunities elsewhere. But then you have to look at the flip side as well. You know, the the great sculptor Lynn Emory always talked about how she had to be in New Orleans to do her work, not because she was drawn to this culture that we necessarily love, although she did, but getting her outside of the New York art scene was key to having her have the sort of peace and quiet to develop her work authentically without thinking that, oh, well, I have to compete with this next artist to make sure that I'm featured in the next hot gallery show because her pieces were large and took years to develop. And it was like I can develop my work authentically down here. And I think that you see that with a lot of artists that the opportunity to not be in more of a rat race type of situation can work out very well. But but you know, others others are gonna prefer that. You know, one of the things is that New World's is not for everybody, it's never gonna be for everybody, and that's okay. You know, it doesn't have to be for everybody. There are people that are gonna that are gonna dig it, but there are others that it's not going to be what they're looking for, and um, and that's fine. We we don't ever expect it to be that.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Do y'all find that uh local artists, and by local, I also include those that have migrated to the city, are concerned about AI and their creative works?

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Yeah, I think everyone is concerned about AI right now. So, you know, I mean that's it's a it's whatever, it's all the rage, it's all anyone can talk about, right? So, you know, how are they gonna use it? You know, whether whether they're going to be, you know, replaced by you know the technology or whether you know people are going to um dig into the you know to the uh authenticity, right? Um, and I think that you know, I I that there's obviously, you know, there's obviously major challenges with having um a robot that can do what a human can do, but I I think that ultimately, I hope that that most consumers are going to want to experience art um uh that is more authentic. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Gene, your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 49:12

Yeah, I mean, I I agree with Ashley, and I think that a lot of times these things they they kind of figure themselves out. I mean, I remember in the early 2000s, there was a great concern with what we were calling computer-generated art at the time, and especially in in photography and in printmaking. And you know, that that that type of work still exists and those technologies still exist, but it didn't it didn't mean that visual arts flip out of business because of it. I think these things find their level over time. I think that there's always going to be a desire, but perhaps even an innate need for for communal live performances. Um and the the format that those take and the tools that people use may change over the years, and I'm sure they will. But um but I think that I think that expressing your own experiences and sensibilities through song, lyric, and painting is you know an essential part of the human condition, and I don't see that going anyway anytime soon.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

Uh I'll leave it to y'all to address the following. What do you all think New Orleans gets right? And what do you think it gets wrong when it comes to supporting this economic engine of musicians and uh visual artists, and even in the food industry? Because I mean, uh I find there's a certain uh intellectual property aspect, even among the restaurant industry.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Okay, I can go first. Um I think New Orleans, New Orleans will show up. Um, you know, we have uh a good friend of ours, Lou Hill, who's with the band Waterseed, and he's a touring musician. He teaches our crescendo program that we do every fall. And he always talks about how we he's played in a lot of different cities and lived in Atlanta for a long time, and and New Orleans people will go to clubs and they will show up where that might not be in other communities. I mean, my experience producing a lot of uh art in the park type festivals has been the same. People like to come out. I think the same thing is true of restaurants. You know, restaurants are obviously something that people really treasure and they really enjoy the dining scene of New Orleans. And sure, there are going to be people that are always gonna be looking for the for the hip new place like they like they could be in other cities where it's part of a trend, but but a lot of it is really just they get a lot of their enjoyment that way. And so I think that that we center the enjoyment of life music, of festivals, of you know, participating in visual arts uh and and food in a way that that is that is quite lovely, and I think is uh is good for both the citizens and the artist alike. Um you know that that said, the the other issues are are ones that we've addressed. You know, I think that the the city and the state of a whole have not put nearly as much effort into arts education as they should. I think that they lack in funding, and as we talked about earlier, they still don't really get the picture of this as an economic development engine, that film tax incentives are nice for a very select few, but that's not what's actually going to drive the creation of a cultural economy. What's going to drive the creation of a cultural economy is making sure that the support mechanisms are in place for developing artists, writers, musicians. And we're part of that. You know, we're we're a nonprofit, and organizations like ours need to be supported. We play a focused but integral role in the arts ecosystem here as a service provider. And there are other organizations that do so similarly, and it's essential that those organizations get support from the citizens and from the government.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

Ashley, what do you think New Orleans gets right and wrong? I actually agree completely with Gene.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

I don't think I have anything to add.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

Okay. Then I'll I'll ask you a different question. Being an attorney, if you could change one law or a policy, whether it's at the municipal or state level, what would you modify that you think would actually have you know beneficial ripple effects across the city and the state?

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Wow, that's a that's a big one. Um I'd have to think about that to give a real intelligible answer, but but when you're but you know, there's I mean, there I would change a lot of laws. I would change just so many of them. Um but one of the things that comes to mind when you when you um talk about when you asked about policy, and I went straight straight to the municipal um ordinances, is I would, I would, I would get, I would take the all of the municipal ordin ordinances and I'd clean them up. You know, that is something that I definitely do. I don't know that it's number one on the list of things to do, um, and that that would have like, you know, the greatest impact um as opposed to other ideas that that have not popped into my head yet.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

But could you could you give some examples of ones you would clean up?

SPEAKER_00 54:44

All of them. Almost all of them, because the the problem is is that you know what when you talk about impact, I think that it would have a a lot, I think that it would impact not just, you know, not just the artists, but everyone to have, you know, to overhaul all of the municipal ordinances, bring them up to date, reconcile them, um, and so that you know, everyone understands what what what laws are actually enforceable and which ones are not. And that is something that has not been done. And New Orleans is way too old of a city for that. Um, there's so many bad laws that are still on the books and that, you know, that, you know, um a person with maybe uh in law enforcement who might not, you know, have the greatest amount of integrity will will use as a weapon when they when they you know decide that that that they want to because it's you know because it's it's still the law, right? Um and there is a lot, there's been a lot of um there's there's been a lot of informal, informal, not precision, but informal action in connection with some of these archaic laws that impact, you know, um impact our culture, but you know, that's not good enough. I would, I the the lawyer and me would go through the municipal um code and and I would I would um bring it up to date for the first time in 300 years.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

So Ashley, as we come here to uh a close, you're a transplant. You you came a couple of decades ago, you stayed. The city's poor, you know, it's got a huge uh multimillion dollar deficit, uh crumbling infrastructures you've pointed out, uh vulnerable to hurricanes, you know, people like to point out the crime. And then the press likes to talk about how it's gonna be underwater here. Um why do you stay?

SPEAKER_00 56:52

Um I s I stayed because of the the very, very culture that Gene and I work hard every day to support in the way that we do. That is that is the number one reason why I'm here. Um, you know, there's there's something magical about the city, and that, you know, it's there's a reason why, you know, it's filled with filled up with a bunch of weird people, you know, and I'm a weird person and you know, I fit in here. Um so I I I love it. I love it. But but you know, but I do worry about about the look and feel of the city as time goes on. And part of that is probably just you know me getting old. But I wonder if it still has the allure that it used to. And I'm afraid it doesn't. I I know that it's still alluring and it's still appealing and I would still love it, but it's not the same New Orleans I moved to. And I realize that, you know, you know, that comes with time, but it's it's it's markedly different. And I think that that I don't know, I don't, I, I, I hope that I hope New Orleans um I hope the the thing that makes New Orleans so special, that, you know, special um that that thing that I don't think any of us can really point to. Um, we can say, you know, the the culture is thriving and it's got a great music scene and you know, the great food scene and all that, but there's something, there's something kind of almost like mystical about the city that you can't really just put your finger on, right? And it's in large part the culmination of all those experiences and the way that it you know affects your senses. And I hope that that sort of that mystique, you know, that it's um that it's that it stays alive in the city, but I um I fear that, you know, I fear it's it's it's um you know there's there's a lot of compromise to it.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Jean, as a native New Orleanian, you know, what would you tell people uh, you know, a reason to move to New Orleans?

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Yeah, I mean I think Ashley really crystallized it very nicely. I mean it it it is uh it is a place that there's nowhere else it's necessarily like. And if you fit in, not only are you gonna fit in in the city, but you quickly find yourself not really able to fit in with anywhere else in America very effectively. And so then it becomes, well, you know, I don't really have a choice anymore because I I can't get quite back to that um that that that feeling that I, as she said, you you can't always even put into proper words. I mean, there is a there is a sensual element to the city, and um it it really is quite lovely. And I think that being someone who is native and invested in it, and you know, we're leaders in our field, we we do have to look at that with eyes wide open, though. And so we do have to identify that there is missed opportunity, that there are missed opportunities, that there is potential that is perhaps not being best taken advantage of, and not just in the in the cultural sector, but it but in all the other issues that that make it a challenging place as well. But at the same time, we also I think get to give ourselves some grace. You know, it it's not going to be something that is going to necessarily be fixed in five years either. You know, a lot of the the issues that we see um they didn't happen overnight, and and they're not gonna be fixed overnight, whether that be inequality, whether that be environmentalism, whether even that be in infrastructure. Um but I do think we do need to try. I think the the the place is important. Um, I think it's uh it's a beacon for so many people around the world, and especially in the in the southern United States, where for many years it was unique in the southern United States as a place where you could go if you if you didn't quite fit in, or if you loved people that people thought you didn't you shouldn't love, or you know, if you dressed the way they thought you shouldn't dress. And you know, fortunately, the the rest of the South has become more uh tolerant over time, but um but this is still the original, you know, and and I think that if we take care of it, the the city's a turtle, and and I hope that we do.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

So final question for both y'all, and we'll start with Gene and then finish with Ashley. And how the Ella Project has evolved, and where would y'all like to see it in the next five to ten years?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:41

Yeah, so I think one of the keys with Ella Project is that we do know our role, and we do want to make sure that we stay mission-focused. And so, you know, we are first and foremost an artist services organization. We want to provide services to artists using the skills that we have and in law, in business, in marketing to allow them to be able to put their work out there. We're not people who are going to create our own artwork, um, and we're not people that are gonna end up so far afield of other nonprofit social service endeavors because potentially that's where the money is. Um, I think that that we know our role, and as I said, I think that our role is is an integral part of the cultural infrastructure. Um so I I we are, as we always also say, a small but stable organization. I I'm hoping and believe that will continue over the next five or ten years. I don't see us getting too much larger, but I do um believe we will continue to be stable as long as we can continue to stay relevant. And that and that's where, you know, there there may be tweaks, of course. Uh you you we start programs, we end programs, you know. But the core element is going to remain. We're going to be a service that focuses on legal services for artists, that's based around intellectual property, that's based around allowing them to compete in the global marketplace, and it's based around advocacy for broader public support of the arts financially and in other sectors as well. I don't see us changing from that mission, and I think that mission is going to remain relevant.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Ashley?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

Yeah, no, I agree with Gene wholeheartedly. Um, you know, I always say that, you know, ideally in five or ten years we won't be needed, right? So we won't exist as a nonprofit, but the reality is that, you know, it's at like a huge swing of the pendulum, which is I it would have to be like uncanny. Um, you know, we're we're our services are going to continue to be needed. And so, so I as long as we are, you know, able to, you know, render those services effectively and we maintain the trust of our constituency and you know um continue to act as honest brokers on behalf of you know the community that we represent, then I think we'll be in a good place.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

Ashley Gene, I definitely appreciate the time you've given me to talk to us about the Ella project, uh, your particular contributions, your thoughts about New Orleans uh and the cultural ecosystem there. Um if you have any parting thoughts, uh please share. Anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:30

We just really appreciate you taking the time and your your probing questions. And you know, for people listening outside the city, you know, come check it out. Because as I said, if it does click with you, you're not gonna find any other place like it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Absolutely. And thank you, thank you so much for hosting us.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

Uh thank you. It's been a real pleasure. And to our listeners, thank you for joining us on Brungart Laws Lanya, where we provide a little extra perspective. Because the devil's always in the details. Invite others to listen. Let us know what you think. Ashley Jean, again, gratitude. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

Thank you so much.