NaturallyScott
At least once a week, I’ll bring you the very best of America’s spectacular world of nature — from birds to mammals, to reptiles and amphibians. From soaring mountains to endless plains, from rugged coastlines to rivers and streams.
Each episode will feature an expert guest — a ranger, a researcher, a birder, or an adventurer — someone who has seen what we want to see and been where we want to go.
NaturallyScott
E56 Kimberly Kaufman — The Biggest Week in American Birding & the Magic of Migration 🐦🌎
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Every spring, billions of birds move across North America — and for a brief moment, one place becomes the center of it all.
In this episode of Naturally Scott, Scott sits down with Kimberly Kaufman, Executive Director of the Black Swamp Bird Observatory, to explore The Biggest Week in American Birding — one of the most important and accessible birding events in the world.
Held along the shores of Lake Erie in northwest Ohio, this 10-day festival brings together tens of thousands of birders to experience peak spring migration at places like the legendary Magee Marsh.
In this focused conversation, they explore:
🐦 Why northwest Ohio is a global hotspot for migration
🌎 How a festival grew from zero to 80,000+ visitors
🤝 The unique culture of birding — welcoming, generous, and shared
🌿 How bird tourism directly supports conservation
✨ Why moments at the Biggest Week become lifelong memories
This is a conversation about more than a festival — it’s about community, conservation, and what happens when people come together around something they love.
📬 Stay curious & get bonus content:
https://naturallyscott.kit.com/5fd12c6752
Welcome to Naturally, Scott. I'm your host, Scott Harris.
SPEAKER_02Good morning.
SPEAKER_01How are you? Yeah, absolutely. What are you know, the collections of people, shots of your speakers, whatever you want to. What is the biggest week in American Burning? There's not a bell that goes off or anything. So if you're in the middle of something, we'll certainly complete it. Welcome to Naturally, Scott. I'm your host, Scott Harris, and uh we're gonna have an absolute blast today. So welcome to the listeners, welcome to those that are watching, and most important today, welcome to Kimberly Kaufman, who was kind enough to join us. Kimberly, a pleasure to have you here today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much, Scott. I'm so excited to talk with you.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think it's gonna be fun. I'm really looking forward to it. Now, for those who don't know, Kimberly is the executive director of Ohio's Black Swamp Bird Observatory. And she is also a contributing editor to Birds and Blooms, which I'm well aware of because long before I met any of the Kaufmans, um, I was a faithful reader and uh take away a lot from your column. So thank you for that. Uh but today we're here to talk about the biggest week in American birding. And Kimberly, I have to tell you, um, before I retired and moved to South Carolina, I owned a marketing firm for about 35 years in Southern California. As a marketing guy, I love the name The Biggest Week in American Birding. I think that is so cool that you just stand up and claim that. And even, I mean, I wasn't hours into becoming a birder, which is relatively new to me. And I read that, I thought, okay, whatever that is, I'm gonna like it because that's just that's just the right amount of boldness and audacity to set that up. So congratulations from a marketing guy uh to the name you come up, the name you came up with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks. And it's it's legit, it's legit too, because it's a week that lasts 10 days. So it it it truly is the biggest week because it's a 10-day event. So there you go.
SPEAKER_01Well, there you yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. I mean, most of these festivals run two, three, four days. Um, so let's do this because we want the audience to learn about the festival. This is kind of a first for us. It's about our 60th podcast, but it's the first time where we're specifically promoting uh something uh like this. And so I'm excited and I want to get it right. So this should be running um shortly before uh the biggest week in American birding. And um, hopefully some of the people who are watching will say, hey, you know what? I've got to get up to Ohio and see this. So we're gonna back up and you'll tell us how it got started and how it's grown and some of the history and the great moments. But tell us what it is. What is the biggest week in American birding?
SPEAKER_02What is the biggest week? Well, the way I like to share is that technically on paper, the biggest week is a 10-day birding festival held in Northwest Ohio in Oak Harbor, Ohio. And it's time to coincide with the peak of songbird migration through this area. We've got billions of migratory songbirds piling up on the shores of Lake Erie, and we built this festival to immerse visitors in this spectacle of migration. So it's 10 days. This year is May 8th through the 17th, and there are workshops, trips that take people to these birding hotspots all along the shores of Northwest Ohio, along the shore of Lake Erie. And there's truly something for everyone. It doesn't matter if we don't care if you've never gone birding before. This is the perfect entry point to come out and try birding and meet the nicest people from all over the world. Or if you are a seasoned expert, there's something here at the biggest week for you too. And we make an intentional effort to throw the doors to birding wide open and welcome anyone that wants to be part of this event of the birding community to come in and and just enjoy everything that it has to offer.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's great. So for the for the new birders among us, this is a welcoming environment and a and a great way to get my feet wet.
SPEAKER_02It absolutely is, Scott. It's we see new birders coming out and in big numbers to the biggest week in American birding because we get lots of press coverage, which is super exciting for us. And we we've been hearing this now. This will be the 16th year for the festival. We started this in 2010.
SPEAKER_01Congratulations.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thank you so much. So we we have a pretty long history of this event and the impact it has, not just on people visiting from literally all over the world from every continent, but from the local people who have never gone birding, but they they see the excitement of it and they come out. We get this feedback every year. People are like, oh my gosh, the birding community, they're so nice. They let me use their binocular, they pointed out birds to me. They, you know, all of these, just the the welcoming atmosphere here. It it's like this big family reunion of birders coming together. And I just have to say, Scott, I usually describe like on paper, this is what the biggest week is. But what it really is is this gathering of souls unified by their common love of birds. And anything, anything that can unify that many people in this age that we're living in is something worth celebrating. The fact that here it's birds that bring so many people together, it's just the greatest thing I will ever be part of. And I'm so proud of our team for hosting this massive event.
SPEAKER_01Well, congratulations to you and your team. Having been involved in things like this in the past, it's if you've not done this, it's an unbelievable amount of work. Um you are juggling so many balls, and you get phone calls. I'm sorry, I thought I was gonna be there, but I can't, and you're removing speakers and all of the things that come up. But you know, backing up to what you mentioned about loaning binoculars and stuff, as a as a relative newcomer to birding, six years into it, um, one of the things that I discovered about this hobby is that it's a great hobby because it's not a zero-sum game. There is no downside to me putting somebody else on a bird. As a matter of fact, I find for myself and and for a lot of other birders, it is more enjoyable to put somebody else on a bird than to get on it yourself. You know, you find somebody that's never seen a particular warbler or an osprey flying overhead, and and you give them a couple of little facts, and you can see their eyes, they're just it's it's actually more exciting than spotting the bird for yourself.
SPEAKER_02You you just put into words what's in my heart, Scott, how I feel about it. I've been birding for a long time now, and it's part of human nature, I think, that when you see something beautiful or exciting, you want to share it to some with someone. You want to show them, look at this incredible treasure that I found. And birding is just like that. And it happens here on a very grand scale, where you you will encounter a group of people that are laughing and talking like they've been friends forever, and you'll find out that they just met an hour ago. And they've just immediately bonded over sharing birds and the experience. And it's um there, there's just a vibe here that's that's really special. And for me, I I agree with you a hundred percent. I I still love seeing new birds, of course. I'm a very avid birder, but to show someone else to be there when they see the bird that they've wanted to see for the first time, there's so much joy in that shared experience. And the overarching goal of Biggest Week is that we take that experience, that vibe, that unity that we feel from that shared experience. And we want to send people back out into their lives armed with the passion and the information they need to support bird conservation, to teach them that you don't have to lobby Congress, you don't have to be a bird expert at all to have an impact on the habitat that these birds we love depend on. Things like drinking bird-friendly coffee, buying a duck stamp. We we soft deliver this information so that when they go home and they're reflecting on this event and the experience that they had, they're like, you know, I could go buy that duck stamp that Black Swamp talked about during the biggest week. And that's that's the goal. Bring people together, help them fall in love with birds and each other, and then send them back into the world ready to do something to take part their role in bird conservation. And it works.
SPEAKER_01That's that's an amazing goal, and and I'm and I know you have achieved it a number of times. So that is spectacular. Um, I want to hear about how many people come, and I certainly want to find out who your speakers are this year. But um, tell me a bit about the visitors. How many of them come for all 10 days? How many of them live close and show up just for an afternoon? And and what's a typical day at the biggest week? If I live somewhere close enough to drive and I've got a day and I take my family, what does that day look like?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that's what makes the biggest week really special is that it's built around active migration. So you never know from one day to the next exactly what migration is going to look like. But a typical day is you could start out early in the morning on a van trip that will take you. We have a big day where people are out seeing as many birds as they can see. And it's a bit of a competition. Or you could start out with a very leisurely stroll that comes with registration at the McGee Marsh Wildlife Area near the boardwalk. There's this famous boardwalk. We've really built it up into one of the most iconic birding destinations on the continent during spring migration. Um, but wherever you go, you will encounter the most helpful, welcoming people that work with the festival, our festival volunteers, and also all the birders that are here to share this experience. So, and I promise you that you will be welcomed no matter where you go during the biggest week, whether it's an official festival activity or a restaurant or a gas station or you go shopping somewhere. This region of Northwest Ohio welcomes people in the warmest, friendliest way. People just not just they don't just fall in love with the festival, they fall in love with Northwest Ohio as a result of coming for the festival.
SPEAKER_01Well, that is great. And I will tell you, Kimberly, you know I I um recently finished writing a book called Why We Love Birds.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, where I interviewed 52 prominent birders from around the country. And the the final question that I asked each of them uh was what was your favorite birding day, your favorite birding moment? And out of 52 birders, three of them highlighted something that happened during the biggest week.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you're kidding. Oh, Scott.
SPEAKER_01Seriously, that I I couldn't. And by the way, that did not include your husband. It was it was it was three non-Kaufmans um who had selected something that happened at the biggest week. Um that was their single greatest burning day, single favorite memory.
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry, I feel a little bit emotional about that because you know, we're a um the the intensity of planning this event where my little team sweats every detail from making sure that we get the sponsor's logo correct or making sure that every van trip is on time. We we just and and we want to bake the kindness and the welcoming nature of this into every point that a person encounters, from the registration table to whatever, picking up their box lunch. We just want everybody to feel loved and welcomed and happy. And so that is that thank you for telling me that. I'm I'm a little um I'm a little overcome to hear that. That's that's that's why, that's why we do it.
SPEAKER_01Well, and you know what? I've I certainly don't apologize for being excited about that, Kimberly. I mean, it is why you do it, and that's why I shared it, um, because it kept coming up, and it was, and um it is it is so exciting, I think, um, that you're able to accomplish this and and pull this together. And um if so uh we will throw up on the screen um information on this, but in case somebody's listening on one of the platforms and not watching, Kimberly, what's the best way for them to track you down? Is it through your website? Is that where they could sign up and learn all the specifics?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would suggest the biggest week in American Birding.com. It's the longest URL name in history, I think. But or just even just searching for Biggest Week in American Birding will take you right to the website. And it's the website is packed with information, not just about the festival, but travel information. We just want to make it as easy as as we can for people to come and enjoy the festival. But also, I mean, of course, we want people to register for the event. But if they don't want to, um, you can still come to the region during, before, during, and after the biggest week and have a fabulous time. So we want to, we've got that information built into the website as well for people that just want to come and go birding. They can do that on their own. It's absolutely free. Some of the best birding, all of the best birding areas along this area are absolutely free. There's no entry fee, nothing like that. And wherever you go, you will encounter birders that will help you learn more about that specific birding site or the birds that they're seeing. So you can come without registering, but we hope that you will register.
SPEAKER_01Well, okay. And so, and and if you can, take advantage of that. If not this year, next year, um, put it on your bucket list. Yes, yes, please. Kimberly, I want I want you to tell a couple stories about things that have happened over the years, but before you get to pick them, tell me about McGee Marsh. It is the holy grail from for spring migration. I've heard I've not experienced it myself, by the way. I'm so looking forward to doing that next year. But tell me what that's like. I mean, I've heard warblers are dripping off the trees, that you can't even count them. There's so many of them. What what what happens there?
SPEAKER_02Well, it it certainly can be like that, Scott. There's an overwhelming number of birds. But uh I want to back up just a bit, if I may, and just say that it's it's a stunning thing for people that have been coming to the Biggest Week for years to know that before Black Swamp started this festival, before we started marketing this region for birding on a global scale, there were essentially no one traveling here to go birding. There were no birding area maps. Birding tourism here was non-existent. The birds have been passing through this region for millennia. These wildlife areas and parks have been here for decades, but it wasn't until Black Swamp Bird Observatory saw the opportunity and the need to get out in front of this incredible spectacle of migration, this birding experience, and put a name around it, build a festival that gave us uh a vehicle to speak on behalf of bird conservation. So it's shocking to me. It's, you know what, it's not shocking because we knew, being traveling birders ourselves, just how special the whole experience is here to go out and experience uh migration the way that you can. The warm welcome along the shores of Lake Erie. This is a tourism-driven area. So people are accustomed to welcoming tourists from all over the world. But McGee Marsh Wildlife Area is the epicenter. It's immediately adjacent to Ottawa National Wildlife Refuge. And there's this string of contention habitat all along the lakeshore. But at McGee, there's this boardwalk. And it's about a mile-long loop that crosses some of the best real estate for migratory birds in this whole region. And it's wooded habitat right on the shore of Lake Erie that these little songbirds are looking for. Because if you weigh less than an ounce, like most of these songbirds, less than your average ballpoint pen, pick up a ballpoint pen the next time and think about weighing that much and flying across the Atlantic Ocean nonstop. Um the these birds are reluctant to cross a big body of water before they rest and refuel, most of them feeding up on insects to build on those fat reserves to cross Lake Erie. So the first funneling effect that happens at McGee Marsh is that you have three general routes that migratory birds are taking in spring, and different species using those different routes, they all converge over Northwest Ohio. So it delivers huge numbers of birds and great species diversity. So lots of different kinds of birds are out there. And from this boardwalk, the birds are so oblivious to humans and they're so intent on feeding to get across the lake that you can see the birds incredibly well here, just in the most spectacular way. The birds are low feeding on the insects along the lake, and they're so confiding, so oblivious. We have people that take selfies, they use their cell phone to take selfies with warblers. They come in that close. So it's there are a lot of factors. One of the things I love the most is that by the time the birds get to this latitude, the males are singing. So they're at their vibrant best. The males are singing, you have that dawn chorus. It's early enough that there aren't there are hardly any mosquitoes or biting flies, and the leaves aren't fully out. So you can see the birds so well. So it's it's as if all the stars, all the birding stars align for us, and that all comes together at McGee Marsh Wildlife area.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's going so that's all you have to offer? That's it. That's it. It's really it's go to Northwest Ohio for that that's a birder's dream.
SPEAKER_02It is. It's one of the best places on the continent to experience spring songbird migration. And then we have American woodcocks and shorebirds and waterfowl. There, there this diversity of species that pass through here. And there are so many other places to go birding. And Scott, I want to mention that people will post pictures of huge crowds of people crammed together on the McGee Marsh boardwalk. And a lot of people say, I don't want to go there and and be part of that crowd. The crowds are off-putting. And I get it. I I totally understand.
SPEAKER_01I I will I will admit that that was my reaction.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I will confess that I had that thought.
SPEAKER_02But it's just on the McGee boardwalk. If a really good bird shows up, you'll have tons of people. I call them bird snuggles. People call them crowds. I call them bird snuggles. We all snuggle up to share the bird sightings, but there are so many other places, right at McGee Marshall Wildlife Area. There are trails where you can avoid the crowds on the boardwalk and still come here, experience spring migration, and meet birders from all over the world. We've had people register from every continent now. Last year, someone from Antarctica registered for the biggest week, which is so cool.
SPEAKER_01Congratulations. And I will tell you, in the birding world, um, I I generally do shy away from crowds. That's just my nature. I think it's a lot of people's nature. But in the situations where I've been where there are crowds, like on the Aerosick Bridge looking for the Stellars uh Sea Eagle, or I was just down at the plat last week uh watching the sandhill cranes come through. And and I experienced some of what you're talking about standing on the on the Fort Kearney Bridge and looking down at the cranes. There were a number of people, because it's free and it's easily accessible, that were there, just local people going, what does a crane look like? Well, it's that big four-foot bird standing in the river, um, along with tens of thousands of other big four-foot birds standing in the river. But there was a there was uh there were moments when I was by myself at different places. I was there for a few days and I got to experience the cranes by myself. But I'll tell you what, I found a lot of joy in sharing it with other experienced birders. Yeah. And first time ever uh coming to look at birds um just because it's a spectacle like McGee. And so if you walk in with that, if with the right attitude, that crowd can be a benefit. There's an energy to it, there's an excitement, there's a lot of eyes that might help you spot a bird that you otherwise wouldn't see. Um so you know, you pick and choose. We all bird differently, and we bird differently on different days. Um, but to your point, if you want a quiet walk by yourself, those places are available to you. And if you want to share the energy and the and the information and whatnot that comes with being with other people, that's available to you as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it's so that's a perfect example of of representation of what it's like here. There are places still. Where you can go and walk and and find solitude, even during the biggest week in American Birding when there are so many people here. And um at the McGee Marsh Wildlife area where this boardwalk is, again, this is in it's the the address is Oak Harbor, Ohio. And this is breaking news, but Black Swamp, um, years ago when I was trying to market the festival, I came up with a tagline of calling it the warbler capital of the world. And a town near us, the walleye fishing is so good on Lake Erie that they call themselves the walleye capital of the world. And I thought, if they can be the walleye capital, we can be the warbler capital of the world. And we we hear this tagline repeated to us all around the world now. But at McGee Marsh, the it's the state wildlife agency, they put a counter across the road into McGee Marsh. And approximately 80,000 people now visit Northwest Ohio during spring migration and at roughly five to six week period. And that's from essentially no travel to us marketing this and building this festival. And it's it has in excess of a$40 million annual economic impact on the local economy. So birds are responsible for supporting small businesses, opening much earlier, putting people to work, generating a major tax base. It's what we found here in working to connect those dots after the festival, taking that economic impact data and knocking on the door of every elected official and decision maker to say there's an economic incentive to supporting habitat conservation, protecting what we have, restoring more habitat, and giving birders access to those places. And we've seen major changes happening in the we are in the Toledo area, that corner of Ohio. Most of the tall buildings in Ohio are now participating in the lights out program to make the passage safer for migratory birds. Um, they're protecting windows with bird-safe dots. There's a lot of conservation initiative being taken just because birders come here and have a great time, and Black Swamp collects that data and does great things for birds with that. So it it all is really working together here. It's a great model, I think, for how to take a festival and have it mean something for birds and birders.
SPEAKER_01Well, on behalf of a guest and and the birds, thank you very much for what you're doing.
SPEAKER_02So remind us again the dates this year are the dates are May 8th through 17th, and you can find out everything about the festival and traveling here to go birding at biggestweek in American Birding.com.
SPEAKER_01All right, and we'll put that up on the screen for those that are watching and and uh not just listening. Um, so tell us a little bit who are some of the speakers you've got. Speakers are a big deal at these festivals. Yeah. Um I think I think you and Ken just got back from some time in San Diego at a festival.
SPEAKER_02We did, yeah. And I was gonna say, if if you can't make it to the biggest week, there are so many other wonderful festivals around the country, and every one of them is wonderful and worth worth visiting. In fact, if you're retired and you have the funds, you should be traveling around to all these birding festivals. Just make it a circuit. They all have something different to offer. But this year, we have um, since it's a 10-day event, we have nine keynote speakers that are from it's it's hard to talk. There's so much to share about the biggest week. Um, we have free birding workshops like outdoor field based. Come out and go try birding for the first time every day during the festival. We have accessible field trips so that everybody and everybody, no matter how you want to enjoy birds. Um, we one of our keynote speakers a few years ago was a gentleman named Jerry Barrier, who is a blind birder. He's been blind since birth, and he just enjoys birds through listening to bird song. So this year we have the Laura Erickson, one of my bird champion heroes, who is going to be a keynote. Ken Kaufman, Scott Weidensall will be launching his brand new book at the festival. But we also have to I have to stop you for one second.
SPEAKER_01The first three that you mentioned are all guests in my book, Why We Love Birds.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's so that what a great tie-in, Scott.
SPEAKER_01Um Laura Ken and Scott are all guests.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um Ken has been one of our keynotes every year, and just every year he's just such a highlight of the festival. But we also have 14-year-old Coralie Rossbach, who had we also at Black Swamp, we also have a real dedication to keeping young people connected to birds in the natural world. We do that through school programs and through our Ohio Young Birders Club, which if people search for that, it'll take them to our website to learn more about this program for teenage birders. And Coralie is the the keynote slots, Scott, at the Biggest Week are highly sought after. We have people asking every year for these slots, and we are giving one of the keynote slots to Coralie, who is going to talk about her her migratory hummingbird research that she's done on her own. And this isn't like, you know, a stand-up display. She's got data that she's collected and how weather impacts the arrival of ruby-throated hummingbirds, where she it is a fantastic, informative, incredibly well-delivered. We've seen we've seen this presentation before. She was one of the keynotes for our annual Ohio Young Birders Conference. So Coralie will be here. Um and there are many others. Day Scott, who's one of my favorite people, incredible spokesperson for birding and bird photography, and Virginia Rose, who is one of the founders of birdability, which has been, it has absolutely changed the the changed birding on so many levels to make it more accessible for people who have mobility challenges. Just Virginia is one of my heroes. So it goes on and on from there. We have workshops being taught by some of the best teachers to help you learn about identifying flycatchers and raptors. It just goes on and on. Rosemary Moscow is here, um, who's done all this incredible work. She will be one of our keynotes. So I will stop now. Um, but the website is the place to go to find out all these things. We're bringing back the bird tattoo contest. We're having a birder prom, which is just an excuse for birders to come together and dance. And Bonner Black will be here performing. Um it this might be one of the best festivals we've ever organized in its history.
SPEAKER_01Well, Kimberly, congratulations. I am I am so excited for you and so grateful for what you've done uh for the birding community and even for non-birders who, you know, you don't have to be a birder to get out there and enjoy it. There are, you know, there are, you know, it's just a way to go. Uh you don't have to be a singer to enjoy a band.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a beautiful way to look at it.
SPEAKER_01And so um I'm excited for you and for all of the people that are gonna be there. And as much as it pains me, we have reached uh we've reached our limit here. Um, I'm gonna throw my email up. It's Scott at naturaliscott.com. If you've got questions or comments for me, please send them. I always answer them, and I look forward to it, by the way. Um, and um, if you've got something for Kimberly, send it to me and I'll get it to her as well.
SPEAKER_00Perfect.
SPEAKER_01If you happen to be watching us on YouTube, this is my one ask of you. Uh click subscribe. Every time you do, YouTube pushes these out to more people. And the more people that get to see these things, because we do birding, love birding. That's how this started. But we're doing all conservation now. We've got shows on wolves and grizzly bears and mycelium. I'm recording one this week on dragonflies. You know, it's it's just it's a fun show to do, and the more people to watch it, the better off we are. So do that. Um, Kimberly, uh, I wrap up every show telling people the same thing or suggesting the same thing, which is get outside. Um, and outside can be your back porch, your front yard, your local park. It can be the biggest week in American birding. Um, it can be a safari in Africa, but get outside. And when you do, stay safe and stay curious. Kimberly, you have been a doll. I'm so excited for you. I first of all, I love watching people who are excited. That's always a thrill. Who don't pretend to be cool. Um, and I love that you're so excited about what you've built and what you've got to share with the rest of us. So thank you very much for being a guest today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for this opportunity. I loved our conversation, Scott. Thank you so much, and I can't wait to welcome you to the biggest week in American Birding next year.
SPEAKER_01I am looking forward to that. This is Scott Harris, Naturally Scott. I hope you loved your time with Kimberly, and I'll look forward to seeing here again next week. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00You've been listening to Naturally Scott with Scott Harris. Naturally Scott is hosted by Scott Harris, produced by Justin Harris, directed and edited by Frank Sierra. Follow us on our YouTube channel at Naturally Scott and Instagram at Naturally Scott Harris. If this conversation resonated with you, please follow the show, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear it. Naturally Scott thanks you for viewing and listening to this podcast.