The Seeing Sideways Podcast

Betting On YOURSELF (w/ special guest, Joy)

• Boomer • Season 3 • Episode 4

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0:00 | 1:08:44

Joy once again joins Kyle and Jessica this week discussing the risk of betting it all...on yourself. What is it like to quit the corporate world and go after your dreams with no guarantees of success. What is it like to put your full faith in yourself to succeed in what YOU believe in? Joy shares her story and drops the mic SEVERAL times throughout this inspiring discussion on perseverance and faith. 

SPEAKER_00

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Seeing Sideways Podcast. We are the podcast that shares tools, resources, and relatable stories to help you navigate this maze or mess we call life. My name is Kyle, and I'm here with my co-host Jessica.

SPEAKER_03

Hello.

SPEAKER_00

And our wonderful guest, Joy, is back with us again. Hello, Joy.

SPEAKER_01

Hello, everybody. I'm so glad to be back here with you guys.

SPEAKER_00

Lies. Lies. Why do you speak lies on my podcast? Hey, don't tell everybody. We're happy to have you back, Joy. Uh, we had a great conversation on the last episode, uh, speaking about the millennial burnout crisis and why so many of us are in a state of disarray and confusion and don't know what we want. Uh, but do we know what we want? Who knows what we want? Does anybody know what they want? So we spoke a lot about a lot of scatological things like that. And but out of that topic born was was something that um I wanted to hone in on on today's episode. Uh, the notion of betting on yourself and putting it all on yourself. Because Joy, you spoke about this uh a bit on the last episode about how you are your single mother of three uh that is a business owner. And that has to be tremendously scary in a lot of ways. And I feel like this is part of the millennial burnout crisis in a way is that a lot of millennials are feeling stuck or sick and tired of the corporate world, and they're just getting out of it, you know, and they're just like, you know what, I've had it, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want my office job anymore, I don't want to work a nine to five anymore, I don't want this structure that I was told I need to be in. I don't want this anymore. I want something different, and I'm just going to try something scary and I'm gonna do it myself. I'm gonna create my own business. I'm going to write a book, I'm gonna be an artist, I'm going to become an actor, go to holiday, whatever. People are, I think, more than ever, and again, I think our generation, there's a lot happening in our generation. I think people more than ever are trying to find what makes them happy, honey on that, and try to make a living off of that, and try to find the fulfillment that way. But that's a very, very scary thing to do, to leave the quote unquote, and I put big quotations around this security of the corporate world. So Joy, I know I just threw a lot at you, I know it's loaded, but I think I just want to start opening this conversation with what has your journey been like as a single mother that has become a business owner and has essentially bet on herself. The floor is all yours.

SPEAKER_01

I wish we were not starting there, but I guess we will start there. Um the journey, I think, is rough. Um it's it's okay. That's that's your answer. The journey is is rough. So I know I'm not the the host of this podcast, but I'm gonna kind of turn it back a little bit and go back to some of the things you were saying because I think those kind of lead to my answer of why the journey is is is tough. Um a lot of people are choosing to leave their jobs and go and do whatever, chase their passion, whatever, a lot of times because they're seeing other people doing it and being successful with it. What we failed to recognize is that it's not an easy journey. You start a business, we're all accountants here, we've worked in tax and all that, but if you are asked, on average, businesses do not go past three years or they're not profitable on average, the first three years of existence. So here you have someone who's left their job, they're nine to five. A lot of times they don't have um the good nest they need to survive three years, and they're putting this um pressure on a business to be able to survive off of that pressure isn't the business will not be able to support them for the most part. And I understand there are there are outliers where it works. They might end up in debt, they might end up like, you know, I know somebody who thought that they would build this huge business and ultimately got evicted from the apartment they had been living in for 11 years. They'd never had problems paying their rent, but they this was the first time they got to that point where they ultimately did get evicted. And it was someone who's pretty prominent, you know. Um, but business is not easy. And I know we talk, you know, about working for someone else, like it's a really bad thing. But if you think about it, that's what the previous generations did. And there are there were people who are business owners, like these businesses are owned by people even in the past, right? So there are people who own the businesses and there are people who work in the businesses. The easier thing to do, honestly, is working for someone. That's like my honest truth, truth. You go to work, you get paid, you go home. Stay loyal to that company, you get promoted, whatever. But a lot of times it sucks because you have no control, you have no freedom to do whatever you want. There's a limit on how much money you can make. And so you choose to go into business, which is what I did. I chose that path. And I gave myself five years to build my business and to grow it, and it's a clusterfuck, but I stuck with it because I knew what I was getting myself with it into. Like, and I knew like it's not like this one year, two-year thing, and I'm going to be making millions of dollars. It's not gonna be like that, and so there's a lot of sacrifices that have to be made in it. And um, yeah, it's hard. It's hard, it's very, very hard.

SPEAKER_00

Oh man, we're about the easy answers on here, Joy. It's not what you're supposed to say. Come on now. Like that that that wasn't supposed to say that this it's it's easy and I'm I'm thriving, and you're going to Saint Chope on Friday with your millions that you've made. That hasn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I'm not saying it hasn't happened yet.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, you just you're just you just giving it you're just giving a little mystery to it all. No, I just okay, I got you. No, um, no, but I I completely agree with everything you said. It's it's scary and it's hard. Um let's rewind a little bit. So because I had said at the top, there is the security of working for someone else, right? And you said it in um, you know, in the statement you just made, you said that that's the easiest thing that someone can do is work for someone else, right? Because of that security, for the most part, you get a paycheck every two weeks or whatever, you know, every pay period, you get a paycheck, you get health care benefits, uh, you uh clock in and out every day. So there's a certain habitual safety to having a nine to five or you know, being in the corporate world, right? So that's why so many of us do that. There's a lot of uncertainty when you ditch that and you go into business for yourself. You now have the time factor and you answer to yourself, but you have to answer to yourself. You know, someone's got to make calls, and you are now the uh you are now the um, you know, you hold the key to your money, essentially, right? How much money you're gonna make or not make. You're not guaranteed that paycheck every two weeks anymore. So that is a frightening proposition. So it's kind of like a choice of foregoing the security of that consistency of a dependable paycheck, somewhat, uh, and benefits and just being able to go to a job every day, but then having to answer to somebody else and abide by their rules and regulations, and they have to tell you what to do and how to do it. And I feel like a lot of jobs these days are all about metrics and statistics and KPIs. What are those three, yes, Jess? I was just about to say, what are those three letters that I hate, Jess? I do I'm glad you see it.

SPEAKER_02

KPIs it makes my ears bleed.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my god, I still don't know what KPIs are. And yes, Jess, I know you've told me a million times. Say it one more time for the people in the back. What are KPIs?

SPEAKER_02

Key performance indicators.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I just I just got I just got anxiety shakes just hearing that. Like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe you need some KPIs in your own life, bruh.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, you think KPIs in my own life? Oh my goodness. Uh I don't I don't want KPIs. I don't know. I mean, you guys, you guys remember, I mean, both of you worked with me, right? And I think you both can speak to this. Uh I had a very okay. Would you both say I was efficient at my job? We could be honest on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Some days.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, that's fair. That's fair. Jess what we're saying.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like this is a leading question, though.

SPEAKER_02

Where are you going with this? I was just gonna say, don't worry about where I'm going with guidance, with guidance, yes.

SPEAKER_00

That's but no, but that is actually fun. No, that's actually where I was going. Was that um you guys uh helped guide me because I had a very uh I would say schatological way of doing my job. I feel like I was effective, but I did need, I think, those KPIs, so to speak. The two of you helped me with that. You two of you were like, okay, Kyle, this is good, but you're going a little too off script here. We need to rein in a little bit, and there needs to be some order and some structure here. And I'm not opposed to order and structure, but I don't know, man. I'm kind of a maverick, I like doing things my own way, you know, and um which is all the job gets done.

SPEAKER_02

Who cares?

SPEAKER_00

That's how I feel. That's that's always been my philosophy is as long as a job gets done and gets done efficiently, and the results are coming in, then don't fucking worry about what the spreadsheet says or ask me to turn in a you know an Excel sheet of stats at the end of the week.

SPEAKER_01

Like that was that was your KPI, it was just not aligned with the company's KPI. You know, like we ran, I think, the most successful team in the whole company. I agree with you. But we did not follow their stupid KPIs, but we were still the most effective team, so maybe they should have adjusted what their freaking KPIs were to balance it, and then we would all be successful.

SPEAKER_00

I I couldn't have said it better. Mic drop, exactly. Kyle for CEO, right? Exactly, you know.

SPEAKER_01

So that's I think we're pushing it there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not even even losing your mind.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my god, like I'm not I am not cut out to be a business owner, not in that sense, anyway. I owning a company and being responsible for God knows how many employees that's not in my life path. I could not handle that level of anxiety because that is a thing, right? Like, let's I think we should be fair because I think we we we all talk a lot of shit about our day jobs, right? And how the about the people above us don't care about the people below and all that. I mean, that's nothing new. Um, and that's true to a degree, but we also don't know about the worries that the CEOs and the executives have to go through about their metrics and KPIs that they gotta present to shareholders and shit like that. They go through a lot of stress that we don't see, thankfully, that we would probably crumble under. So I always, you know, I always like to see the other side of things. So while we can talk shit about our CEOs, I feel like they do go through a lot. And Joy, you know, you are a CEO, right? Technically, you're you are the you are the boss, D-A-B-O-S-S of your company, right? So um, you know, do you have any employees or are you just doing it all yourself?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I have a couple employees, and I actually like what you just said because that's ultimately it. We think that being a business owner is just about the money that you bring home, the the you know, the trips that you're I'm always gonna go back to those trips, but the trips you can go on, you know, the deductions you can get on your on your taxes. Um, but there's so much responsibility that comes with with owning a business. And to even have like a lot of people are doing this, they're contracting, they call it a business, whatever. It's just you doing one contract for one company if you know one at a time. You you're just a contractor, which is basically an employee of someone that you're calling a client. That that's not a business. I said what I said. But when you go and start this business, you're responsible for your employees. You're responsible for actually a lot of people end up, a lot of business owners end up paying their employees before they ever pay themselves. And so they're even living in worse situations than their employees are living in because their business is not at the point where it's able to support them. So again, back to your question of is this is there a lot of responsibilities? Yeah, there's a lot of responsibility. I will I will make sure like my employees are um uh successful, that they will be able to come back to work tomorrow, that they want to work for me, that they want to do for me what I need them to do so that the business can keep moving forward before I even do it for myself. So they're getting paid before I get paid. I mean, I'm an employee of my company too, but if if somebody has to get paid less, it's gonna be me, it's not them.

SPEAKER_00

So it's an investment. It's an investment, ultimately. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But it's it's definitely more of a responsibility, and that's what that's what people don't consider is what it takes to get there. And as much as we are hating on the CEOs and you know, the CFOs and the COOs and whatever, and the people who have to make those tough decisions, like they have a bird's eye view of the whole organization, and sometimes they just don't understand what's actually happening. But ultimately, like, yeah, they have a responsibility um for uh to make sure the bus the business is they have a fiscal responsibility to the organization. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well said. I think that kind of perfectly and succinctly, yeah, it it gave us an inside look as to what these business owners, yeah, what they go through and what their mindset is when they are running a business. Because, you know, I could I like I could picture people listening to me talk and being like, oh no, Kyle's turned into a corporate stooge, you know, because again, it's cool to hate on our bosses, right? That's what we all do, you know, and that's what our parents, you know, everyone does that, right? We're all underpaid, we're all underappreciated, we're all undervalued. Um, that's a story as old as time, you know. And I'm not saying that there's not a lot of validity in that case. Trust me, I've sung that song many times. Um, but there's always another side to an equation, right? Um, there's always another side to a situation, there's always another side. There's there's always two sides in a relationship. And your job is a relationship in a way. It is. You have a relationship with the people that you work for, you know. And so, you know, there is a story behind what's going on behind the scenes that you don't see uh with your job if you feel like you're getting underpaid. You and you may very well be right and deserving of higher pay, but who knows? Maybe the company's going through financial issues and they can pay you, you know. Um I don't know. I'm just, you know, I'm playing devil's advocate. I like to do that sometimes because I feel like I said, it's it's easy to fall into that trap of or not trap, but it fall into a line of thinking where we look at the people above us as the evil corporate overlords who just want to see us suffer and squirm and sit in their high chair and cackle, you know, while they watch us minions toil away, right? So uh Jess, what are your thoughts on this?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I was just thinking, you know, I think we had a benefit in our career because we work with business owners and we see all the hats that they wear.

SPEAKER_00

We did.

SPEAKER_02

We we see all the struggles that they have, we see their financials, we see what they're making, and we see what they're paying out. Um, so that has like given me a unique perspective. And, you know, I'm trying to be a business owner. I'm and I I don't I'm doing bookkeeping, but I don't want to ultimately be a bookkeeper. I want to be an owner of a bookkeeping business. So I'm back here trying to build systems and structures and all of that good stuff that you need to have a successful business because I've had the gift in my career of watching and seeing people and seeing what success looks like and seeing where people who continue to struggle, even though their business looks like it's doing well, but they're struggling and like what their problems are.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I want to say that um that's good, but also there are those horrible business business owners and CEOs out there as well.

SPEAKER_02

Oh no, I've heard from them too, trust me. Yes, they're they're still there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like they are there. Like, what are we gonna do? Um, and I feel like in corporate versus small business, I think there's a big difference there where like Jess and I are business owners, when we're employing our employees, because we have been employees, we're different bosses. 100%.

SPEAKER_00

There you go.

SPEAKER_01

We have also managed people in our roles before, and we are also like we're professionals in our job. Like your bookkeeping firm is because you have been a bookkeeper, you know how to do it, you also know how to manage people. Yep. I know how to do it. A lot of times, corporate organizations will promote somebody, and we saw this in our job, where they will promote someone just because they were a great tax advisor and they would make them a supervisor of the people. Um, sir, no, they're good at the tax advisory work, they're not good at managing people. And so when you have someone like that who was just good at their job, but they were not good at the administrative work and at like being, you know, um at the HR or the people relationships and all that, that's when you start to see um people being very unhappy in their jobs. I've worked for companies where I was definitely not being paid what my worth was, but I was being treated as a person. And so I wanted to do Well, like my boss was treating me well, so I wanted to do well for them, and that's why people leave these freaking corporate jobs, is because they're like, I can do better than this, like I can be treated, I I can't be treated like this, and so they're like, but I can do better, but it's not for everybody, it's definitely not for everyone. I 100% agree with that. I'm saying go work for small business.

SPEAKER_00

Hell yeah. Enjoy, I want to uh let me hone in on something uh there, you know, the whole notion of essentially if you if you if you like and respect the boss that you work for or the manager that you work for, you'll want to do good work, even if you're underpaid and you feel like you're underpaid a little bit. If you if your boss shows you respect and treats you like a human and knows how to properly manage, it makes you want to do better, it makes you want to work with your boss instead of for your boss. You're working together, you're working with them. Um, when I work with you guys, I always said that I I I never, you know, I managed both of you at one point, and I never saw it as me being your boss. I always saw it as we're working together on this, we're helping each other, you know, we're code managing, you know. Um, we are we're in this together, we're in this boat together, and we are mutually beneficial. And I tell you, I got a crash course on learning how to manage people, and that was ultimately how I chose to manage my team is treat the people like people, you know, like they say, real, recognize, real, you know. Like I feel people respond to respect, they don't respond to disrespect. Now, I think there are a lot of sectors out there that breed people who are quite frankly toxic, like toxic managers, the type that are abusive, the type that treat their employees like shit, uh, that put so much pressure on those that they are managing. And I think they feel like there's this philosophy of when you rule with an iron fist and you put pressure on people, then they'll do their best work. That people do their best work under pressure. Uh again, that old expression, uh, pressure makes diamonds, right? But what do I always say, Jess?

SPEAKER_02

Diamonds are prickly.

SPEAKER_00

There you go. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Diamonds are yeah, diamonds are tough, but diamonds are also pointy and prickly, right, Joey? Are they not?

SPEAKER_01

I've never seen the real diamonds, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Fair enough. So um, one day when you make your millions, you will. But uh they are they're very prickly, and I think but I think that's a very apt comparison when you put a lot of pressure on somebody, sure, it makes them tough, but it makes them irritable, it makes them on edge, it makes them insecure, they're not relaxed, they're comfortable, they're they're uncomfortable all the time.

SPEAKER_02

And then they don't want to be around or work for you. I had remember just in the recent past on my little side hustle job, I had somebody that I was working for. He wasn't technically my boss, but I was working for him, and he gave zero direction, um, but had these expectations, and I was always failing his expectations, and I got a lot of ugly several, several ugly emails. Yeah, I know we're from this individual, and I like and I was already super stressed because of a lot of other stuff that was going on, and I just I woke up every day trying to do everything I could, but like the the amount of stress and and um overwhelm and um like feeling like a failure that I sustained for seven weeks having to work with this individual, I will never work with that person again.

SPEAKER_00

There you go.

SPEAKER_01

You know that kind of flows through to like business as well, and that's something that you have to like think about when you're starting a business, especially if you're like in professional services or our type of service. Your client is basically your boss, right? Like, and so they're paying you, just like your boss would pay you. Um they're paying you, and so how they treat you matters, how you treat them matters too, but how they treat you matters. And sometimes you do have to cut off a good contract because the client fucking sucks.

SPEAKER_02

Like they I have screening questions that will you won't even get in the door if you're I feel like you're going to be that type of client. And there are parameters in my engagement letter. If you become that type of client, then we will no longer be doing business. Because it's not worth it, the money's not worth it to wake up on edge every day.

SPEAKER_00

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I ended my largest client engagement, largest one, because they were making me feel like shit. Yeah, half decision. But I was like, nah, my peace of mind is worth way more.

SPEAKER_02

Yep. I feel you on that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, see, that's the thing, right? We we're all trying to chase that almighty dollar, right? And it's I mean, look, money's nice, you know, it affords us things, it allows us to live comfortable lives, but yeah, at what cost? At what point do we start asking at what cost? Uh are we even enjoying the money that we're making if we're under all this stress? You know, you have to cut off that client, that client was paying you pretty well, right, Joy? But you you cut him off because you realize what's the point, you know. Uh, I mean, if I'm gonna be unhappy, and isn't the whole point of you doing this uh or or starting this business is to find your fulfillment, right? Well find happiness, you know, fulfillment leads to happiness ultimately. We're all just trying to be happy, man. And that's the that's the thing. So so Joy, then kind of uh rubber banding back a little bit. So no regrets, right? In this journey to exit the corporate world, because and correct me if I'm wrong, you are fully in your business, you are not working uh any corporate nine to five or or anything like that, right? You're fully in it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm fully a hundred percent in it. Um no corporate. I do still get calls from recruiters every so often, and I'll entertain them for about 30 seconds. And then I'm like, wait, no, no, thanks. You're gonna pay me how much? 150 an hour? No, thank you. Um, yeah, definitely not looking back. Like I said, I give myself five years, so I have time, and that's something that I had to. I mean, I've done this so many times, like start stop, start, start, stop, just because I was impatient. And again, this is one of those things, you know, we're talking about like I'm better every day, I'm I'm learning more every day. And I know jumping into a nine to five for the security of it is might sound really good. Like, it would be nice to have a paycheck, steady paycheck. It would be nice not to pay like $700 a month for like freaking health insurance. Like, what the heck? Um for one person, it would just be nice to know that I have this um this filter of you know expenses and like everything is on me, everything is on me, and still even thinking all that shit, and I'm like, yeah, this is what I want, this is definitely what I want to do. I definitely want to pay all this shit money for insurance just so that I can stay. Um, I want to not be able to afford my vacations because I'm paying my employees, you know, like I'm still choosing this because it's it's it's for me. And so yeah, no, no, no regrets at all. At all.

SPEAKER_00

Right on, man. I dig it. So okay, so another question then on you know, following that train of thought. So no regrets, you're all in. Are you also absor observing uh amongst our millennial peers this similar trend of are are you absorbing that also observing that also that Millennials are just like, you know what? Screw this. I'm do I'm going on my own. I'm I'm I'm starting my own business, or I'm gonna become a content creator, I'm gonna become a TikToker, I'm gonna do an OnlyFans, whatever, you know, like I'm going to I'm just gonna go in it for myself um because I'm tired of this thing taking a toll on my mental health.

SPEAKER_01

Honestly, I I don't believe so. I really okay I I really don't believe so. I think people there are people who are choosing that path and then they're going back to work. Um, there's a lot of like wanting to be, you know, like the whole nomad, what do they call it? Like um digital nomad. Digital nomad. Um, but they ultimately they're able to do it by just getting a remote job. I think what's actually happening is that people are choosing to get less play, less paying jobs and not chasing that corporate, like climbing that corporate corporate ladder. Um and so they might just choose, like, you know what, I'm just gonna do this dumbass job that allows me to go on trips that it's just helping me pay for what I can. But and again, I'm not on social media, so I don't know, but I'm out in the world where I'm I'm doing a lot of networking, I'm going to like actual events with people, and people are working. People are out there working, and people are taking jobs. And like we have recruiters. I have a guy in my in one of my networking groups that's that's a recruiter, and he is finding people the jobs they want. They're just choosing different types of jobs, and it's just, I think the difference is that people are don't want to climb the corporate ladder and they're jumping from one place to the next for better pay or for better benefits or whatever. And the ones that I know, again, I don't know a lot of people, but the people that I know who are jumping to go do their own thing are doing something within their own career. For example, Jess. Jess is is you know in accounting, and so she's doing bookkeeping, and that's the path she's taking for her business. Um, or they're jumping and going a lot of, oh yeah, this one, people are doing a lot of franchises. Those I'm seeing a lot with our generation, where you know, people are purchasing franchises because they think they're going to do blah, blah, blah, and they're getting into that for it. But I think for me to be able to see people doing the like the TikToking and the content creation and all that, I'd have to be on those platforms, and I'm not, so I don't know for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Fair enough. Yeah, you're not missing much, man. Um just a whole lot of like data overwhelm, you know, like we talked about in the last episode. Just data, data, data, data, data, data. Um that's interesting, though. No, I I like your perspective on that. So you but you do think that there are people, so you think there are people are doing it, they're getting out of it, but then they're like, okay, you know what, let me go back because I like that security. I like that this job afforded me healthcare or the ability to make enough money so that I can go on vacation, as opposed to pursuing this really hard path of starting my own business. And I thought it was gonna be easy, and I thought I was gonna be raking it in, like my favorite uh social media personality. And it's been three months and I'm not rich yet, so I'm going back to work, right?

SPEAKER_01

Right. And I think also it's it's that again, I don't know about the content creators, but what I'm seeing and the people who are going back into employment is like I said, they're people who are staying within their fields and they're becoming consultants, advisors, a lot of that. Right, right. And so when they start their content creation, it's to bring in like clients and stuff like that. So they're growing their, they're growing their um their followers just to be able to bring in like, you know, um new leads. New leads. Yes, new leads, thank you. Um, but then what happens is they land a big client. So say, for example, for me, I'm providing fractional CFO services, and I land a client that wants me to, I'm giving them like 40, 50 hours a week, that's a full-time job. I can't work for anybody else. And so they go ahead and they offer me, like, you know, hey, what if you worked for us and we pay you a little bit more than what you're making as a contractor, as an advisor, as a consultant, or whatever, and you just work for us for us full-time, and we'll pay you this much more, we'll pay your benefits, we'll pay this, we'll pay this, we'll pay this. And it's so nice and pretty because it's packaged so nicely with everything that I always wanted, but I get to do what I was already doing with that security. And people go back, they don't last very long until they want out again. And then it's like this cycle, right? It's this cycle of in and out of employment. And they're like, no, no, no, I want to be a contractor. But those are the people who are doing it because they hate the price, the job they were working at, and they're like, I could be a consultant and work less hours, and they just need one or two clients and they're good. They're not building a business, and that's the same thing with like content creation, I think, is that you it takes a minute to build, I think it takes a minute to build to like millions and for you to get um to get as many followers for you to be able to monetize and all that. Like I know a friend who's um I think she's in like insurance or something, and she's been trying to build build her content. And I'm like, okay, that's great, but I don't see your your following growing enough. And I've asked him, like, have you made any money? And it's like, no, she hasn't left her job yet. And I have a different friend, a mutual friend with this girl who has like 30,000 followers and she makes cat videos, and it's like, okay, and she's monetizing it, but is it enough for her to live? There is, but is it enough for her to live off? No. What her job, the one who makes the cat videos, is that she sells, she breeds and sells cats. So, yeah, she's making money off of her cat videos, but she's making even more money from selling the cats. So that's her business. So the content creation is not the moneymaker, it's everything around it that's the moneymaker. And I think people who don't understand how content creation works, the moneymaker is the brand deals. That's where the money is. Yeah, it's not the content, it's not the three cents that I made three cents for posting shit on like Instagram, and I had a bunch of people on there, and so then they have three cents. Yay! Like, no, I didn't get any brand deals, the brand deals is where the money is. So that's the business.

SPEAKER_00

And let me add to that. I completely agree. I completely agree. It's it's the it's what it's what your content creation reads off of that. So, for example, there's this one YouTuber I like to follow. Like, I just I just enjoy watching his videos, and it inspires me too. And he's this guy that he you know he travels the world and he visits exotic locations, and so it's like he does like lifestyle vlog type videos, you know. Now, this guy uh I think has about 70,000 subscribers. So now at face value, you know, 70,000, that's that's a decent amount of followers, but it's not a million, it's not 500k, it's not 300k, it's not like it's not Mr. Beast, you know. Um it's it's 70,000 subscribers now on its own, right? If you are a 70,000 subscriber-based YouTube channel, you can pull in money, but uh is it gonna be enough money to you know sustain a you know a comfortable living? Probably not. But what this guy did is something smart and which was inspiring was that uh it's not about the YouTube channel that's going to sustain him. What did he use? He leveraged his followers, he created a business, he created a coaching business for I think he coaches he he's a coach, he coaches essentially people to be better, you know, almost like a life coach in a way, from my understanding. He kind of he coaches and mentors people and their individual businesses to be better. So this guy took the time to build a subscriber base, a following, a fan base, and all he needed was a small fraction of those people who watch those videos to sign up for his business, charge like a monthly fee or something. And I think his business has like 200 members, and this guy is like he's he's doing very, very well for himself, so he leveraged that as essentially a way to advertise himself, to put himself out there and say, This is who I am, this is what I have to offer, and create something on the side. And he just needed a small fraction of the people that are watching him to believe in him and give him money, and now he's good, you know. So I think that coral correlates to what you were saying, Joy, is that you know, it's not about the subscribers, about the brand deals, about what you do with that, right? You follow what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01

So, um, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

You know, so what I'm trying to really say is Joy, you need to create a YouTube channel like yesterday.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, totally, absolutely. Let's start with this episode and post it on my YouTube channel. There you go.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, but seriously, you know, it's like it's I think that social media, you know, I think we kind of um gave it a little bit of a black eye, uh, especially in the last episode, uh, about how poisonous it can be. But it really is a sword that if you sharpen it the right way and wield it the right way, I think really could serve you, you know, if you know how to use it in the right way. But don't depend totally on it. Don't don't go into it with the aim of I want to be a content creator that gets like a hundred that gets a million subscribers and then I get to live off of that. Just think about that as a way to advertise who you are. Like Jess, you know, you're in your bookkeeping business, you know, you could, you know, if you put yourself out there on Insta or whatever, make make TikToks about bookkeeping. I I I wouldn't even know the first thing about how you would do that, but but if you did, what are you doing? You're advertising that you're advertising yourself and saying this is who I am, and then people are gonna want to come to your business.

SPEAKER_02

100%. I did that for a while on another business that I started that failed. Uh okay. But I'm just saying, like, it sounds good and it's on my agenda and I have ideals, but it also even for like a you know, 30, 45-second reel, that's a lot of work. Yeah. To curate it, get it together. Like if you're if I'm going to make content where I'm speaking um and make it something that people want to engage with, it's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01

See if someone wants to build a business around social media, build a business around making the social media for work for the rest of us who don't know what the fuck we're doing. 100%.

SPEAKER_00

That's actually a brilliant idea.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's actually a no button. A hundred percent. Yes. Yes. I mean, but there there would be a big market for that. I I would think. There's a lot of people who want to big market.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting that don't know what they're doing, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I barely know what I'm doing, man. Like, Jesus. Like, I I know just enough about Insta to be dangerous.

SPEAKER_02

But we've hired my we've hired my 24-year-old to do some stuff for us for the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, we yes, we have.

SPEAKER_02

Because I Kyle's like, I could do it and I could figure it out. And I'm like, well, let's just ask like my 15-year-old and my 24-year-old. They could do it in like two seconds. Whereas we have I've natives. Yeah, I'm gonna have to go, I'm gonna have to go watch a YouTube video and then like clunk it together, and they're just gonna do it in like three swipes or something crazy.

SPEAKER_00

You know what? But you know what it is though, also, you know what I'm afraid of? And I know there's that thing about fear, right? You know, but what I'm what I'm partly afraid of is I could learn to do this stuff, you know. That's kind of how my brain works. When I get into something, I'm in it, and I'm you know, and I want to learn everything about it. But I could learn to do it, I could learn how to make reels and edit reels and do it well, but there is the part of me that like I don't want to become addicted to it. I think that's a real risk that that becomes your whole kind of like existence is just making these videos for social media and social media in and of itself is already a it's already very addictive. It's it's designed that way intrinsically, right? It's to hook you. So I have achieved a level where I kind of like I I'm not on I'm not on social a lot and I like it that way. I like disconnecting from it from time to time. So there's a part of me that's afraid that I will I got I'll just be on Insta all the time, and I and I definitely don't want that. But I also know that I need to use it more to be able to leverage you know the podcast and everything that I'm looking to build for myself, you know. So it's it's it's tough, that fine line, you know. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I think it takes a lot of time to learn these things, right? Like, and sometimes as a as a generally curious person, when I want to know how to do something like you, I'm like, I could learn it, I could totally do it. But ultimately, like my new focus is and then what? So now I know how to do it, and then what? Like how much value is this adding to my life? And I know I have to do like like for my business, I have to do marketing, I have to will have to do all these things. I'm like, okay, can I just pay somebody else to do it and let them be the let them be the expert in it? Man, and then like yeah, why do I need to know this? Yeah for what purpose? I would rather pay somebody, yeah. Yeah, it takes away time from you from doing what you should be focusing on. Like you create the podcast, let somebody else like do the whatever is needed to be done, you know. I don't even know what is supposed to be done.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, surprise a surprising lot, you know, even for a uh a podcast where people are just talking, you know, we gotta get a website running and all that stuff that's on our agenda, you know. We gotta all these things to help build a community. It's um, you know, it's work. I mean, it's fun work. I'm excited about all of it, like genuinely, but it's work. And but even just this, you know, arranging time for the three of us to talk, it's it's a time investment and it's a lot of work. And you know, you know, but it's a lot of love.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we talked in the last episode about how few hours we have left in the day and how much less energy we have by the end of the day to invest in you know, all of this stuff and all of the things, and you know, to Joy's point, yeah, I'll just pay somebody to do it because I just don't have the energy, even if I do have the time, where do I want to invest that time?

SPEAKER_01

That's so funny that you bring that up. Like that had been my thing until honestly. I told you guys I'm a work in progress, but until about I want to say three months ago, where I just did not have enough energy or enough time. And I realized this because I have all this shit that I'm doing that I don't want to do, like I genuinely do not want to do it, even though it's completely necessary for me to do it. Um, and I realized like a lot of times I would just like just ignore it, and then it becomes a whole thing like forgetting to file an extension on my taxes. Like, what type of accountant are you? Um and and then I realized it's because my schedule is so scattered. Again, single mom of three, building a business. Um, oh, you know, I had these issues which I had put away, and I was like, this is future joy's problem. Well, future joy now had to get an MRI and get physical therapy and get all this shit because I didn't take care of myself years ago, and so my schedule was so, so, so much um scattered, and I was like, when when do I do anything? And so, and then also like the whole I moved across the country and I'm like trying to build a you know a community around me, and it ended up being I just needed to block out time, literally. Like I block out time for everything and I don't do everything every day. Um I love that so I have time. It got to the point that I block out time for me to run errands, like I block out time to go do groceries, I block out time to pick up my dry cleaning, return books to the library, I block out time for building my business, I block out time for I don't know, um doing client work, I block out time for outreach. And then now I block out time for like solo date time. I had to put it on the calendar and then orchestrate this shit to happen, including like, I'm like, okay, hey, I need a babysitter between this time and this time every two weeks. And that's the that's that's the time I have for me to do that. And so I'm thinking about I don't need to do everything every single day, but I when I'm doing it, it's for it's focused and it's for a certain time and I can get it done. So, like this is like for us to do this right now. I already had this time blocked off already for myself. Um, and I had a babysitter, and so it becomes a thing that I can do, and it's like I don't, I'm not stressing about something else, you know. So, yeah, there you go. That's wonderful. I love that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, same. And Joy, I know you always got time for me, right?

SPEAKER_02

Right, Lisa. Come on, admit it, admit it. We have to check my schedule and see if it's there. Tell him again, Joy. Tell him again. I'll consume you in tentatively.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01

Here's my calendar.

SPEAKER_00

Send the Google Calendar, right?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Aye carumba, yeah, man. No, I I um no, I I I totally, totally, totally agree with that. And and isn't the whole goal here's the thing, like we all have different, I guess, ideals of uh what we want our lives to look like and what our life goals are and whatnot. But ultimately, isn't the goal of working so that we can do things, isn't that all isn't that really the ultimate goal, is to work to earn money, to be fulfilled, so that we can achieve happiness, and happiness is achieved by doing the things that we want. Right? Isn't that the general trajectory? So we work to do these things, and I think we get caught in the trap of we work too much, and that's all we're doing is working, and and even if we're earning money, right? Earning the money that we want to, we're caught in a cycle we're just working all the time. And I do think that we are in a current culture that is pushing this narrative of work, work, work, work, work all the time. And the only way you're going to be successful is if you essentially you're you you sacrifice everything for this thing, you get two hours of sleep every day. And I see people like that all the time. They're bragging about that shit. Like, oh, you know, I don't I don't get any sleep, you know. I got maybe five hours of sleep this whole week because I'm locked in. People like to use that phrase, I'm locked in, I'm not getting any sleep, and I'm stressed, but but I'm doing all this, and this is the only way you're gonna be successful. And I don't know, I I tend to push back against that. I mean, don't get me wrong, obviously, anything you want to be successful in life, you gotta work at it, you gotta put in the hours and the effort. But if you're going through sleepless nights and you're stressed, I mean, does that make you happy? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know. Like, I just feel I see that narrative pushed a lot, and I'm finding I'm finding holes in that logic. Am I alone in that?

SPEAKER_01

No. And here so I'm not I'm not from this country, like I'm not American, obviously, but this is an American thing. Maybe it's spilling over into other things, and I think the main issue is that why do you need to work so much to make more money, for to keep up with the Joneses, to for clouds to have this huge title, right? Um, and again, to tell everybody how great you're doing and how successful you are. But what is the definition of success? I think for the most part, a lot of people, it's the bigger house, it's the expensive trips, it's the expensive cars, and it's living outside of our means. It's we have what's up, the black card, the credit card. Like, why do you need a black card? Like, so you're just paying to you're spending money that you don't have so that you can what? And it's just a lack of contentment, I think, in this country and in this um just in our generation and in this day and age where we're just not content with what we have, and the more we get, the more we want, and the more we need. You have this fucking huge house that you're never in that house because you're busy working to be able to pay for the damn house. That's what the hell is it for? What is it for? Or you make all this shitload of money so that you're able to send your kids to a fucking boarding school or have a nanny to take care of your kids so that you can go and work. What? Why? Why do you have these damn kids then? Right. Like, okay, so you can afford a a nanny full-time they're there always so that they can raise your children for you. Where are you working? Why again? Why where I grew up, like where I grew up, people barely work. Honestly, I don't even know where the when the hell people work. Like the culture in my country is different. Like they have holidays. I think these people are on holiday, like every week is like a holiday. People are out drinking all the time, and I think that was an inflection point for me. When we worked together, I was in Kenya all summer. Um, I went to Kenya for the whole summer, and I think that changed my perspective on working. And it's funny, you're talking about the two hours of sleep. I was doing 48 hour days, 48 freaking hour days. How do you do that? You go to sleep at 10 p.m. You don't go to sleep until two days later at 10 p.m. I would work all night, get my kids ready for school, drop them off at school, work all day, work all night again, and then go to and then go to sleep at night. Like, why? So that I could get as many tax returns done as possible, so that I could make as much money as possible. I was barely sleeping. I gained so much weight, I was barely like alert for my children or there for my children. Like, and I was still not even making enough money. And again, this is like what, six, seven years later, my body is like reacting to that shit. I'm dealing with it now. Was it worth it? No, it didn't even make me anything. We got the bigger house, and then what? And then what? I was barely using it. My very nice bed. I was not even sleeping in it. You know, I'm I'm pissed about that. So back to my country. I go back, I go to I go to Kenya, and on Friday by like 3 p.m., we're out drinking and eating. Like, I don't even drink like that, but we're out drinking and eating. We're staying up all night hanging out with my cousins, with my friends, but we don't even talk to each other again until like midday tomorrow because we got our eight hours of sleep, and then we're just like so much togetherness, and like, but you see where these people live, it's modest. Most of them don't even drive cars, they're smaller cars, and it's not that they can't afford it. Like, some of these people are making way more money than I would ever make in American dollars. Um, but they're so content, and it's like all this family life, and but the houses are smaller, the cars are smaller, the clothes are modest, like, but it's like focusing on the things that matter. Like, we're we were doing all the things, and I was like, yeah, this whole big house bullshit, like, nah, I'm not doing that. I need to refocus on what's what's for me. But okay, I just went on a tangent there, but thank you very much for the for the time.

SPEAKER_00

All the mics have been dropped. Yeah, no, I I uh man, I I don't I don't all right. We'll see you next week, folks. That's on the C Sideways podcast. Um there no Joy. I completely, completely, completely, completely agree. And it's honestly a rabbit hole. We could go on for hours about this, but I think that you know, it goes so it goes back to one story I saw, and I and I know I've mentioned us mentioned this on this podcast before. There is a story I saw about a guy, it was on a YouTube channel. I saw uh this guy was being interviewed, this young kid, um, could have been uh older than 30, but he built a watch business and um you know put all his blood, sweat, and tears into this watch business and worked at it. It was his whole existence. And then built it from the ground up, and then one day a really big watch company bought him out. And he and I remember he described it as they brought him out, and one day he woke up, looked at his bank account, and he saw a balance at his bank account that looked like a phone number. That's how he described it. And he did it, right? He did it, he built a business, he got bought out, he got this huge sum of money, probably never has to work again. He did it. You know what this kid said after? The kid said it was amazing, but then when that blow wore off, he fell into depression because he realized what am I without this watch business? I did it, I got all this money, but now what? What do I like? What do I what do I do with myself? You know, and a lot of people would hear that, right? And scoff at it and be like, I want to hear about this rich, you know, uh multimillionaire uh brag about his his problems. He he did it, he lived out the American dream. But you really sit and think about that, and I think that ties in with the what Joy was saying is that what are we doing all this for? This what are we getting this big house for? All these this big house, these cars, these uh babysitters for our children. Like, like what is this for? Are you happy as a person? Are you happy? Did that money really make you happy? Yeah, okay, you have no more you have no more bill problems. Great, that's that's amazing. But are you happy? Are you fulfilled? What do you do now? What is the rest of your life look like? You know, I think that's a real question that not a lot of people ask themselves in this pursuit of wealth, right, Joy?

SPEAKER_01

Right, and I don't think people are pursuing wealth because wealth is different than like rich richness. People are pursuing money, money's fleeting, and they they they're chasing the money for shit, for stuff, you know, like I was talking about the big houses, the trips, the the clout, the all that, but that stuff goes away, it can disappear in a second. As fast as that money came into that person's account, it's just as fast as it can go away. I mean, there's also fraud where people are like stealing your money and stuff, but that's true, um, wealth is different. That's why people who win the lottery, like they don't necessarily like have the greatest lives. Like, yeah, sure, you win the lottery, and then what? You know, they end up, you know, back where they started. So I think working for it and then even keeping working and finding ways to build that wealth and just even financial literacy in itself, which is a completely other story, but all that stuff I think is what matters. And yeah, we need to refocus our lives on what we're what we're looking for, what we're chasing.

SPEAKER_00

1000%. And I want to end this episode in posing this admittedly big question to you, Joy. And you may not know the answer, and that's totally fine if it's not, because as you've said several times, you're a work in progress and you are taking steps towards being the joy that you want to be. But I want to ask you this business that you are building, does this business make you happy, or is this business the stepping stone towards doing the thing that makes you fulfilled? And do you know what that thing is, or are you etching that out? What that looks like.

SPEAKER_01

Wow, heavy hitter. I am never, ever coming back. That's what you're trying to do over here. He's like, you know what? We don't want you coming here. So I ask the hardest question. Um, I think this business is what I need to be doing right now. Um, is it what I'm going to be doing to retirement? I don't know. Um, but it is what I am meant to be doing. It's making me very happy most days. Um it's hard. And I believe I don't know. I don't know what I'm gonna do. Um, I don't know if I'm I'm gonna get to a point where I'm like, no, this is not it, and pivot. And if that time comes, I will pivot and I'll trust myself. But right now it's making me happy and it's what I'm fully focused on. It's not a stepping stone to anything. Um, it's just it just is what it is. Um ultimately it's what I've always wanted to start. Like when I say ultimately, when I say always, I mean like since I was like maybe 10 or 12. Um the design of it has kind of shifted to where now I know what I'm selling. Um and I'm focused on that. But the overall design of the business is what I've always wanted it to be. And so yeah, it's it's it's definitely it's definitely the thing I should be doing, and I am very, very happy with it. That's what answer all your ridiculous questions.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. That's what we do here, man. You know, hey, listen, don't act like this is anything new, Joy. I asked these same ridiculous questions on a day-to-day basis to you when we work together, you know, and you probably you probably gave me the same answers of how shut up. I'm not answering your stupid questions like that.

SPEAKER_03

Sounds about right.

SPEAKER_00

That's yeah, that was that was pretty much it. Um Joy, this has been an amazing discussion, and I really appreciated you coming on here and talking about life shit, man. You know, this stuff that you know, this is this is the stuff that we deal with every day. And I feel like a lot of what you said on these past couple of episodes, a lot of people will resonate with. And I just want to say, uh, as your friend and you know, younger brother of sorts, I'm very, very proud of you. Very, very proud of you. I'm proud of the journey that you have embarked on since I've met you. Uh, you've inspired me in a lot of ways. And you've always since day one uh encouraged me to just do it, just do something. And you've always been a voice in my head to whenever I doubt myself, whenever I feel stuck, um I just think of Joy yelling at me in all caps, saying, Kyle, just do it. Just do something, make a choice, and you'll figure out the rest. So I just want to say that from the bottom of my heart. I appreciate you, and I look forward to having many more conversations with you uh on and off mic.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it is a pleasure to be here. Thanks to both of you for having me and parting words pursue progress, not perfection. Love it.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, yes, mic drop again. Again, again. There's no more mics to drop after they're all laying on the floor. I'm spending my time cleaning it up, but that will wrap up this week's episode. Listeners, thank you so much for joining us on this lively discussion, and we will see you all next week. Joy, Jessica, thank you both for your time and the conversation, and hope everyone has a great week.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks, Joy. Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Joy.