Have we actually changed… or just become more religious?

In this episode, Dee and Jodie dive into a challenging but honest conversation about the difference between looking Christian and actually being transformed from the inside out. It’s easy to fall into routines, follow the “right” habits, and still feel disconnected from God.

We talk about:

•  The difference between religion and real heart change 
•  Why behaviour shifts faster than inner transformation 
•  The tension between doing the “right things” and feeling spiritually distant 
•  How comparison, routine, and performance can quietly replace relationship 
•  The truth that real change is slower, deeper, and often less visible than we expect 

Through personal reflections and scripture—including 1 Samuel 16:7, Romans 12:2, Matthew 7:21, and more—we unpack what it really means to be transformed, not just outwardly, but internally.

This episode isn’t about judgement—it’s about honesty.
 It’s about asking the hard questions:

•  Am I just going through the motions? 
•  Am I actually closer to God… or just consistent with routine? 
•  What is God still trying to change in me? 

You’re not finished—but you’re not the same either.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, and welcome back to the Muddy Cross podcast. Thanks for joining us today. So, this episode is a little one-off spin-off that we're doing. And I see a bit of a question that we have. It's have we actually changed or just become more religious?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

That sounds quite deep. It is a bit deep. It's it's kind of like what if we actually haven't changed? And what if it's just our behaviour has changed to be more Christ-like? And if we become just better looking Christians. I don't mean better looking as in, you know, we're nicer than you're doing. I mean, you know, on the outside what what we perceive ourselves to be, um, and we're not actually transformed inside.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Yeah. Well, I guess that goes back to the Bible with like the Pharisees, wasn't it? You know, you could refer back to, I know you don't like me saying this, but the Paul Saul story, you know, where when he was Paul, oh sorry, when he was Saul, he was um, he thought he was doing the right thing, he was following religious, you know, practices, rules. So religion would be more like, you know, um going to church every Sunday because it's seen it's what you should do, and you're seen on the pews and you're singing the hymns, but then you walk out of church and you're not really picking up your Bible anymore, you're not doing anything else. Um, or it could be that you're you know you're following the rules or you're in it, it's external behaviour. You say you're a Christian, but actually it's it's we we don't even term term it, do we, as Christians or anything? We just say walking with Christ because it's more of a heart change, it's more of an internal, like a desire to want to have a relationship, a desire that if you see someone in need, you want to help in any which way you can, you know, you want to be in the word as much as possible. And I know that there's daily factors, you know, weekly factors that can come in to you know throw you off of that. Um, and again, it doesn't come back to a routine per se, it comes back to the desire, the heart wanting to do that. So it's a real heart transformation versus a religion, religious practice of rules.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, I I think that you know, I think that the behavior is probably the quicker thing to change, and the heart can take a bit more time. Yeah, yeah, definitely. There's a lot of perceived values, I guess. If you term, you know, somebody's become Christian, then then they don't do all these things, they don't drink, they don't smoke, they don't curse, they don't, they don't they give to everybody, and and you know, so it's easy to adapt those behaviors, but I think as you kind of were hitting that the heart takes a little bit longer. I mean, I you know, I know from my point of view my heart started to change, and I just naturally didn't want to do things, so my behaviour continued to change, but it was because my heart was changing, and that was a process, yes, definitely a journey, and we're still on the journey, absolutely, you know, and this is for us as much as like we often say, don't we, when we finish a podcast, that actually I think that was for us.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Yeah, so we often joke about that, but you know, so this isn't a preachy, this is a general question that we had that come up, and we thought, right, well, let's talk about it. Um and I think the um one of the stories in the Bible that Kirinna really emulates this is obviously David and Goliath, you know. Um it just didn't, he wasn't from an outwardly appearance, he wasn't the first choice. It was the older child that was much stronger and braver, you know, and and had it all together and being the firstborn as well. That's predominantly what would have been chosen um by humans, by man. Um but I've got some scripture here which is 1 Samuel 16, 7, and it says, But the Lord said to Samuel, do not consider his appearance um or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at all the um sorry, the Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart, yeah, and I think that's so true, and you can see it, can't you? You can see it in yourself. You know if you're doing something with a good heart or your begrudging heart, like I haven't got time for this, I've just got to do it. Like, I know that there's been times where I've done stuff like that and I've had to rebuke myself. It's not from him, it's from me I've had to do that. Um, and so it comes down to you can see if someone's doing it, if they're doing it because they're you just their face lights up and they're elated to be able to help someone versus someone doing it, but they're moaning about doing it. You know, there's a real difference there, yeah. And I think that's where this verse is coming in of you know, like somebody may look like they can't help, but actually they could be the one person to help, so we should never judge, we should never, you know, just exclude somebody just because we think they're not able to do it. We should just see the glory in God in them.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah, I mean, you know, you you touched on something there that I know I felt guilty of certainly before I came back to God, and that was doing things for other people. Yeah, I didn't feel like I wanted to do them, and almost begrudgingly thought, oh, I've got to do this, but that's then only thinking about myself, and not that you shouldn't think about yourself, but we should also consider others as well, and in those positions, and um you know, maybe I just didn't want to do something, but their need was more important, and this is where the change of heart comes in is that you recognise in other people their need or in other people's circumstances, and that goodness in your heart just wants to step into that place and help. Um, so that's something that I know that I've been guilty of before I came back to Christ. Um, and I guess now coming back to Christ now, I'm more aware of that, and I wouldn't say I'm perfect, um, but I do try and step into those people's shoes.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

But it's a journey, isn't it? Because that the whole process is, you know, like you said there, you um, about we, you know, you've got to take yourself into consideration at as as well as that. Because if you're if you're just keeping yourself busy all the time, and it's great that you're going out and you're helping people and you're doing all these things, but if you're doing it and it's actually keeping you so busy that you've then not got time for the Lord, which I've been rebuked of recently for this, um, again, a self-rebuking, but it kind of came through a message, and I knew that I had to deal with that, you know. That I'd made I hadn't made life, life's got busy as it does, being a mum and everything else on top. And you just think, actually, I'm not making time for me, I'm prioritizing other things, and that me time of sitting with the Lord, you know, just having that moment together before the day even starts, before any of that, that's really important, and I'd sort of put that to the side because of everything else that's gone in in life, and so we have to factor in ourselves in all of this because we can't give from an empty cup, no, so there has to be a balance, and I think that is probably the most challenging part of all of this is finding that balance between serving yourself, and that's not self-ish, because you have to be in a good place in order to help others, um, and then serving others as well. And I think that's a real fine line. Um, and I think before coming to God, like we've talked about it in our Grace and the Grit and Faith in the Climb series, where you know, like for me, it was very much I was brought up very much with a um a drive of you know, achieving, you know, having to get you know the next trophy, having to get the qualification. I'm not good enough unless I've got this, I'm not enough unless I've got that. Um, and that all come from obviously, you know, internal desires and needs, because I wasn't affirmed in in who I was and and and the kind of the cementing foundation of that at that time in my life, and so I'm kind of constantly seeking and searching. Um, and that makes you very selfish without realizing it, because all you're doing is looking for the next glory in order to kind of prove to everyone else that you're good enough, so you're not then looking at somebody else and going, How can I help you? You're just looking to get up the ladder and help yourself, and I think what God's done with us, especially through the you know, like the last seven years, is stripped all that away and and changed our hearts before we even come to God. I think we were on that journey of being changed, but I know going back, like I'm talking sort of you know, 20s, mid-20s, I know it was very much about proving and very much about you know, like that that kind of me, myself, and I outlook on the life, you know, what can we get? How can we get this? How can we get that? Um, always had a caring heart, so I'd always make time for people. So I'm not saying I was completely selfish, always made time for people, would always help somebody if I could, but it was never at the forefront. If it came up and an opportunity to help someone was there, I would do it. Yeah, and I know that I've always been someone like like when we were going back before in in previous um businesses we were in, you know, if I if I could give a discount, you know that I was always the one going, oh, should we give a discount? So I know that there's always that in me, but because of this lack of feeling enough, I had this achieving mentality, and I think that just blinds you from the greater good and the purpose of what we're here for. And since this whole journey of the last seven years, and especially obviously the last four years of being with God, it's just all it's done is is kind of allowed me in particular to find that peace, and I'm still this is still a journey, I'm still working on being enough, so that that's not resolved, that's still a journey, but it's allowed me to feel that foundation of him, like the whole being fearful of death and all of that's completely gone. And so there's a peace and a calmness that comes with that foundation because of the word, because of the relationship, and there is days where I don't get it right, there's days where I'm not seeking him enough. Um, but that comes down to building a relationship, and that's what it's about. There's days you get it right, there's days you get it wrong, but you're only judging yourself by your own standards, you're not judging, because he's not judging you on any of that. Um, and and if you are doing something obviously wrong in his eyes, then you'll know because it will be revealed to you. Um but it's just it's just about now, it's it's not having that blinker of I need to achieve, I need to, I need to, I need to, I need to, that that sentence in your head, um, because I'm not good enough, because I need this qualification, or they're not gonna think I'm good enough, or not gonna book me or hire me, or whatever. It's about actually just knowing who you are, and we're here to love others, to not judge others, and and to see them as God sees them, because we're all we're all children of God, and to know that we're gonna be in heaven with people that haven't done enough, don't deserve to be there. Yeah, and we're one of those. We don't deserve to be there because none of us do. We're there by grace, we're there by what he's done on the cross, and I just think that is so humbling, and that is the transformation, that's the heart transformation. Still working, still trying to get it right every day, but that's the heart transformation. It's that desire to want to do that, the desire to also realize that you need to fill your cup, and that's not selfish, and that's balanced with also then seeing where you can be of service and putting that forefront as well. And that's to your own family, that's to friends, that's to strangers, that's to whoever. It's just walking like you know Jesus would want you to walk.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yeah, yeah, you know, I talking about relationship there, it's just it's just clicked. I seen something yesterday. Um, and and someone was talking about uh building that relationship by you know connecting with the Bible. And there was uh some research done in the States uh from a Bible university, and I can't remember how many people I'm gonna say 2,000, but I think it was a lot more than that. So it's 2,000 people, and they basically uh they got them involved and they sort of split them into categories of who reads the Bible, how many times a week you read the Bible.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Oh yeah, you sent that to me, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah, so it was something like you know one to three times a week, or once a week there was really no change. One to three times a week was marginal, there wasn't much change. But anyone reading the Bible, spending time in the Bible four times or more, there was a significant change in their outlook in life, in their productivity in life, in just general joy and happiness, people, and then there's different ways that they measured this. Yeah, but what what shines and I guess is some evidence there is to say that if you spend time getting to know the Lord, building a relationship with the Lord, you know, more in your week than less in your week, then you will see the benefit in your life, your life will start to change, and then that will only then echo out and spill out to other people, and other people will benefit from the change that you've had by building the relationship with God. So, you know, have we actually changed or just come more religious? I think that if we spend time in God's word, then yes, we will change, but it is building that relationship and you know, reading his word instead of prayer allows us to do that. Um, I've got a little bit of scripture actually that fits into this. It's 2 Corinthians uh 5 17. It says, Therefore, if anyone in Christ, uh if anyone in Christ, he is a new creature. Um the old things have passed away, uh, behold, new things have come. Wow, and you know it just says in there again, if you spend time with me, if you give your life to me, you are a new, you've become a new. Um and and I I love that little I love that little passage.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Um it is true, isn't it? It's a it's our thoughts, emotions, deeper struggles, they're all there, and I've got some scripture as well, actually.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

We've got loads of scripture with this one just saying so. Get your Bible, you're gonna be jumping back and forth.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

And yeah, and and please feel free to obviously pause and and dive into your Bibles at this point. Um, so this is Romans 12 2, and it says, Do not conform to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, then you will be able to be uh to test and approve what God's will is his good, pleasing, and perfect will. And I think that's so true, isn't it? Because it goes back to you've said it, I've said it, it's relationship, and it's and the one thing that's really I think important and it's come up for me in the last few days, and I think it's because I'm I'm going through a bit of a shift at the moment, and so I think this is something that was meant for me. But I read it and I thought this is really important to share, is that this shouldn't be based on our feelings, no, and what I mean by that is there's some days where you might go to a service or you might you know watch a podcast or you might I don't know here have a conversation and you just think, Oh, do you know I'm not feeling that today? I didn't feel anything, I didn't feel God in that today. But it's not down to the pastor or the podcast presenter or who you're conversing with to make you feel anything. It's not down on feelings because feelings are just an emotion, an emotion that is based on human, it's not spiritual, you know. That it should be our our foundation is in him, our our he's our solid rock. And so it may be that you're not feeling it today, but that's down to you to dig into the word and spend that time with him. It doesn't mean pick up the Bible necessarily, it could just be going for a walk and just talking to him. It could be like I was in in prayer with him the other morning and I just heard be still, be still and listen. And I think that's one thing that I haven't been doing a lot lately because I've been very productive and just work, work, work again. And I think he wants us to to just listen sometimes and just be in the moment, and so you know, like it goes back to not relying on those emotions, not relying on whether you're feeling it or not. If you're not feeling it, then do something about it. But but that goes back to we can't blame, we can't, and I've done it, I'm guilty of it. I've come out of a service and I've gone, oh I won't feel it now, I just feel I was being told off or whatever, because that is just that instinctive human nature just to throw it out there. Um, and so I'm totally guilty of this, you know. But it's it comes down to it shouldn't be whether we're feeling it or not, but it should be I might not be and it's okay to not feel it, it's okay to be feeling sad, it's okay, but you know, we talk to the boys, it's okay to be feeling upset about a situation, but that shouldn't rock your faith. You know, your faith is built on a trust in him and what he did on the cross for you, and knowing that we're never going to be good enough for that, but we're saved by grace. So that shouldn't be affected by any human feeling. So we can still feel sad, we can still feel anxious, we can still feel all of those things, but it's coming back every time and going, Lord, I'm not feeling it right now. I'm just being honest and saying, I'm feeling sad, or I'm feeling anxious, or I'm feeling whatever, and I need you, but I trust you and I love you, and I know that you're my, you know, you are my rock and you are my saviour. And it's I think that's the difference between like we've just finished the what in the why series. Um you know, and I think that that that kind of emulates that, doesn't it? It's the why in all of this. Why are we doing all of this in the first place? You know, it's not just the what, oh let's go to church, let's read our Bible every morning, let's set our alarm and you know, get into a routine. It's not about that, and that and you can fall into that very easily. It's a trap, to be fair, you know. And I know I've been through it where you know you're just you're just you're just ticking the boxes for for the sake of it. You know, it's not about any of that, it's about actually knowing that you trust him above all else, and that you can just be honest with him because you're building a relationship of honesty. That conversation should just be able to flow, or you should feel okay in the silence as well, which is something that I'm working on right now, something I'm really you know building with him right now.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah, I mean, talking about emotions, there's also emotions, and you know, that's our daily ground, and that's the other part of life that that can really stop us forming or growing that relationship with God, and that's just the busyness, and that's that's a really hard one because obviously, you know, there's work involved, you've got kids, and they've got clubs, and there's there's just so much run around. I mean, I know this this week we've been hugely busy, and and we're kind of on the back foot in a number of things, just because there's so much to do, and so much crazy. Um, but we can't lay in that as the excuse, we still have to find a way around because quite often we can get so busy that we get so blinded that we step out of God's word um or don't spend time with God, but actually, within this cycle of busyness, we can get very stressed and we don't know how to deal with things and can become overwhelming. But actually, if we take time with God in God's word and talking to Him, we might, and that silence as well that you mentioned, we might actually find a better way through to be more productive or to shake off things that aren't important that we feel are important and consuming us, but we actually realise by spending time with God they're not, and I can let go of those and actually might end up freeing up more time in your mind.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Gino, just as you're talking, and I know this is completely off, you know, where we're going on some of this, but looking out behind you, and there's all the trees. Um there's a window there, by the way. Um, and looking at the trees and just thinking about them, just like all of us. It's about seasons. It's about seasons. Some seasons, like you're saying, they get really busy, you know. That's when like the trees are growing all their new shoots and they're just busy being productive and and pushing all of them out, but then there's times when they're holding all back in and they're wilting off the old and they're reserving back and they're actually building their roots. Yeah, and so just like that, we're the same. There's gonna be different seasons, and I think the biggest thing is just giving grace in all of that, and just knowing that as long as we have we have that foundation that we are trusting in him, and it is about a heart transformation and the desire to want to do it and not just to outwardly show that, yeah, I think that's where it comes in because you can be great at just showing everyone and fooling people in some respects that you've got it all together. Yeah, and that's almost comes down to that culture that's out there in the moment, you know, in social media where you look at someone and you think, oh wow, they've got it all together. Yeah, but actually, when you meet them in person, and and you know, it may be that you see them or they reveal some stuff and you think they they haven't, they're just like me. And that goes back to we're all flawed, we've all got flaws, but it's not about our flaws, it's about trusting him and knowing that we're all beautifully and wonderfully made in his image, and therefore, we've all got a purpose, and it's about fulfilling that purpose over the world and what the world wants for us, and that goes back to the scripture of you know, do not go by the worldly standards.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, you you touched on something there, and and it's really prevalent now compared to whenever we were grown up as kids, which is comparison. You're gonna sound like an old oh I remember the days, back in the day, but it is it is comparison in in sort of two levels comparison in terms of you know, comparing ourselves to others, yeah, which obviously with internet there's this rife. Um but there's also an element of um, and I'm not saying that everyone does this, but we need to be careful we don't fall into the trap of this. Is that you know, I'll I've found God, I'm born again, and then you plateau and you think, well, I'm better than I used to be.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Yeah, so I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Uh you we need to remember that as you said at the start, this is a journey. Yeah, totally. A journey means there's a continue walking and learning because things happen along the journey. And it's a roller coaster, there are the dips and moment. So we need to be careful that we don't fall into the trap of the comparison of, well, I'm better than I used to be, so I'm good, I'm okay. Yes, you are better than you used to be. You've discovered the Lord and you've given your life to the Lord, but that's only the start of your journey. There's a lot more to come, and and God has a lot more to offer you.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

And every level you get to, he'll reveal something else, which is going to be a challenge, or it's going to raise something, or it's just going to be more work to do in his name. So there's always a fresh season, a fresh start to go through. So I've got, based on what you just said there, I've got some scripture, and it's Romans 3.23, and it's um, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And that goes perfectly back to what I'm saying about when we get up to heaven, there's going to be people in there that we go, I didn't like them, or they don't deserve to be here. They did this, this, and this on earth, or and God's just going to look at you and go, and you don't deserve to be here either. But by my grace, you are here, and you are saved by what I did in human form coming down on the cross. And I came down to show you in human form how to walk and how to live. And that's not by worldly standards, that's by my standards, and that is certainly not by judging other people because we won't we won't be going up there if we're judging other people.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

No, no, we need to we need to be very, very careful with that. And um, you know, one of the things we just need to again just be really careful that we don't replace relationship with routine. Yeah, um, this is this is the thing that you know for for this whole episode is is really beaten down on me is that um we've got continued works to do, yeah, and and life's still busy, and we've got to figure a way out with this. And there's a bit of scripture that um kind of a bit of a rebuking. It's in Matthew 23, 23, and um it was an easy one to remember. It says, uh, Woe you uh woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you tithe in mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier provision of the law, justice and mercy and faithfulness. But these are the things that you should have done without neglecting the others. There's so much to having the Lord in your life and following the Lord, and as he says, you can't neglect one or the other, don't be like the Pharisees, and in terms of you know looking Christian, yeah, and being uh a follower of Christ, you know, it's not enough just to, as you said, tick the boxes and and outwardly people think, oh wow, they're really generous, they're really caring, they're really helpful, those things are.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

But inside, you're falling apart.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Those things are important, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

But you should be doing these and I I remember so earlier you asked me a question you said about before, what was it like before to now? Yeah, and one of the things when we first come to Christ was you know, like not fear, but I always was like, Oh, I don't want to, I don't want to tell them that I'm having wobbles on X, Y, or Z in my own, you know, my own feelings or like that not feeling enough or what have you, because well, I'm walking with Christ now, I'm supposed to have it all together, yeah, you know, and it's only been this journey where you go, I'm not supposed to have it all together. I'm supposed to know that all of those past things that have happened, all the you know, the the the downs and the ups, all of them, oh, who shaped who I am now, and I will come into the situation with the the glasses of all of those situations, all of those opinions, all of that. But it's having the humility in my heart to go, okay, well, that's just my opinion. Let me step out of that and step into the room, you know, without trying to bring my judgment, my opinions, my past scenarios in. Like we've been doing a pastoral course on an evening, haven't we, on a Zoom? And one of the things they were talking about was when being a good listener, and when you're listening to somebody, are you listening to them or are you just thinking, oh, I've done that, or I've seen that? And we had it last night. One of the ladies was talking and sharing a story, and I was thinking, I've been there, I know what you're talking about, I've done that, and it was so hard. I did it, but it was so hard to refrain from jumping in because I was meant to be the observer and going, Oh, yeah, that was really that was a lovely part of this, and that was really good. And you know, so it's it's it's understanding where you're at, and it's it's walking in the empowerment of him and what he gives you, and and knowing that there's grace on that too.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

There is you know, I think that the world is it's always it's it's me, me, me, he who shouts, or she, he or she who shouts the loudest, and and just wanting to be heard all the time that that that happens in conversation, and you know, the art of conversation in some regards you could say is slightly lost if you look at how people message each other, everything's very short, um little sort of little sound bites, but it also takes me back to when we spend time with the Lord and that quiet time with the Lord, we wait. Yeah, God doesn't necessarily speak to us and say, Alright, God, I've just said my bit of the prayer, boom, yeah, Mike over to you. Come on, yeah, and then and then the Lord speaks to you. You you sit in silence, yeah. God speaks in whispers, and he may not speak to you at that time in prayer, he might communicate to you another way. But the point is that there's a time and there's a process, there's a slowness.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

There is, and and the the art and in the world we're in, we're not used to that slowness.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

No, we're not, and and this is what I'm saying, going back to the whole pastoral of somebody coming, connecting to you. Um, do you give them that time? Truly give them that time and not write the shopping list in the back of your head at the same time, you know. And this is all part of you know, what's it like to follow the Lord and truly follow the Lord? You know, you can look like you did everything, but the lights are off and you write the shopping list, or you can actually say, you know, I genuinely want to hear you because I want to help you with your problems and your concerns that you have. Uh, and that's the difference, that's something that you feel inside, and that's something that people can't see, but it's something that you know, yeah, yeah, it's definitely, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Something in there, and it's it's about fully surrendering, isn't it? It's that fully giving to him, fully surrendering, fully embracing everything, yeah, and just and just knowing that you don't have to have it all figured out, you don't have to, you don't have to be following, you know, like you might see Mary down the road that is, you know, like she's read the Bible ten times back to front, she can quote scriptures, she can do all of that, but actually if something really drastic happened in life, she could fall away because she's there in she's there in um academically, but not there in the heart. And I would rather, although you know, I'm trying to learn scripture and trying to be in the Bible as much as possible, I would rather be getting it wrong and being humble in that and trying every day and having the right heart for it. Because again, it goes back to David, you know, David was not out there, you know, like fighting and being the champion in that family, he was guarding the sheep in the field, and you know, to all intents and purposes, he didn't look the part, but he had the heart for it, and God saw in the heart, and he was obedient, and he was obedient. That's the other thing, being obedient, you know. Like there's been times, especially of late, where we're like, why? You've told us to do this, why? Okay, well, I'll do it, or or what next, yeah. What next? You know, but but being obedient to do it, and then just see what comes up next, you know. Um but it's not losing sight of him as the as the forefront of all of that, and and and and that's so so important, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

And and this again, this whole episode is is making sure that you that you are actually changed rather than looking actually changed, and there's a passage in here in here. I know that I've I've mentioned we've said this passage before, and I know I've said something along the same lines, but it scares the life out of me. Um because it's the most frightening thing I think that God could say or Jesus could say that I know what you're gonna say, and this is in Matthew, Matthew um 7 21. Right, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven will enter. And that's a that's a mic drop moment. I mean, could you imagine getting to heaven and then the Lord saying, I I don't know you and closing the door. That that just would be um absolutely heartbreaking, and you know, that speaks volumes into this episode of you know, are we actually changed or just become more religious, or are we just just doing the actions?

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah, you know, yeah, and that can make you think that you're further along than you actually are, you know, that overconfidence, you know, change change is a lot slower than we expect it. And we human nature, we all want to be ahead, don't we? Well, I don't want to wait two years to be there, I want to be there now. Yeah, you know, like I don't know, pick weight loss, for example. You know, like at the moment I'm trying to get a bit more fitter and healthier, and you know, I could keep thinking, I don't want to go through the process, I just want to be there. And and that is the human nature, yeah, it is, it is unfortunately. But that is the human nature, you've got to get up every day and you've got to do the work, you know, and there's days of rest days, of course, but you've got to get up, yeah, and every day you've got to do something in part towards that, you know. Um, and that is the same here, but it's it's I think fundamentally it's just about having the desire to want to do it, which is what the important part is, even if you haven't managed to, you know, to like you've had to get up and go out early, so you haven't got had that first start morning with God that morning, and you haven't then been able to get home, and then you get home and everything's frantic, and you just think, I haven't even got time to pick up my Bible or go off and do a prayer or what have you. Um, and then you get to bed and you're like, I'm too exhausted. You try and read and you're falling asleep, or you know, that's okay because in the back of your mind throughout that whole day, you've wanted to do it, and so you may not have managed to do it, but you've had the heart to want to do it. Now, obviously, you can't do that every day because it's got you've got to allow, like we said, filling up your cup and allow time, but there's going to be moments, there's going to be seasons, there's going to be days where that is the truth, but it's that desire which is the important part to show that you want a relationship with him, you want to be close to him, and that can be slower than what we expect it to be or what we want it to be.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

It can, um, on the same time, I'm liking this to a relationship with somebody else. So when we first got together, there was a well, I want to meet up with you. Shall we go out somewhere? You know, and you have your life happening anyway, but you you can plan some time in there. So don't get me wrong, equally, that was back then. Now we have kids, and that time that we have is slightly lessened.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

And I'm gonna butt in on this because I'm gonna butt in because I listened to this lady today, and she said that her and her husband, he's a pastor and she um shares Bible stuff out online, and she said that she makes sure Wednesdays is their day every day of the week. She said it may mean that I have to work harder on a Tuesday and more hours on a Thursday, but we always have our Wednesdays together, and I'm like, Yeah, so that was again a bit of a self-rebuking that we're not making time, and I'm talking generally here, you know, we're not making time for the most important things if those things are slipping.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah, you know, and this is what I'm saying, you know, I accept that life can get really busy, and even this week I know my life's been really busy, but we should find time. I mean, you know, I I creep in prayers in driving, you know, I speak the Lord whenever I'm driving. Uh there's there's just times that you can you can I think fit it in. I think it's harder for us to turn around and say, right, this day, this time, but I think that there is times that we can do it.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Yeah, and it's been awareness of our own flaws. Um, and those flaws is actually growth in us. Um, you know, am I just going through the motions of doing something or am I actually drawn into it? You know, and it kind of you we can obviously ask God to be part of this, doesn't it? But it comes back to that whole relationship and wanting that relationship with him, I think.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and speaking of relationship, um, I do have another little in in Philippians, it's uh Philippians 1, 6. Uh, I am confident of this very thing that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ. Wow, and that to me speaks until the day, which means there is time, which means there is a process, there is a journey, it is ongoing. Um, and and and this is the point is that this is a relationship.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

It's kind of saying you're not it's not finished.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

No, it's until just yeah, the day the Lord returns, and and and and and again that speaks to the people that are on that plateau. Just if you find yourself on that plateau and something's speaking to you, yeah, I think I might be on that plateau. Pick up your stick, pick up your bag, and continue walking because there's a lot more that God wants to reveal to you. Um, we're never there. This is a continued journey, just like you know, we as a married couple, we are not the same people that we were when we got married, no, and we will not be the same people in five years' time for what we learned today, tomorrow, and so on and so forth. It's exactly the same in some regards to walking our life with the Lord. That journey will continue, our learning will continue, the change will continue.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Yeah, and that's and it's asking in every one of those seasons, every one of those steps, you know, like you'd ask each other, it's asking, isn't it, for um to kind of to seek him and ask him to search us and find anything. You know, it's going back to prayer, isn't it? Reveal something. What do I need to work on? Bring something up. Have I have I still got unforgiveness? Have I still got this, that, or the other going on inside? And so it kind of comes back to all of those areas that we still need to work on. We still need to be, and if we think, oh, do you know no, I've got it all sussed, I've got it all figured out, I would I would encourage more prayer on that. Yeah, because I know that every time I kind of think, right, I've dealt with that one thing, or so there's still 10,000 over here, but I've dealt with that one thing. I could be back in prayer a week later, and something to do with that one thing may come back up again. And I'm like, okay, I thought I was done with that one thing, let's go back on that. So it's it is a journey, like you say, it is a work in progress, and he does know our heart, and we've got to work on that.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

It is that, and when he brings those things up and we feel convicted because it's self-conviction, um, that's not failure. No, that's change and that's growth. That's the that's the important thing I think to remember as well, because we could be bubbling along quite fine, and all of a sudden the Lord reminds us of something that we've not dealt with, and you can choose to think, Oh, I'm such a failure, I can't believe that. Or you're gonna say, Wow, thanks for that. I totally forgot about that. This is another way that I can grow.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Yeah, um, and I've got a piece of scripture that blends perfectly into what we're talking about, and it's one three nine twenty three, and it says, Search me God, and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts. And I think it is Psalms 1392, and I think that that is just a beautiful piece of scripture that we can use in prayer to kind of ask him to reveal to us and to seek our heart and to see where, because the heart is deceptive, you know, and so we need to go into the and I always say go into the depths of my heart and pull out anything that you need to reveal to me. So it is it isn't always to be trusted, he is to be trusted over our heart, you know, and this is why we're constantly feeling like we're in a battle because we've got our head, our heart, and him, and it just feels like the human versus the spirit, and it's just this whole battle going on, and I think it's really important um to be still and listen in there and to just be calm. Um, and the changes, you know, this changes us, doesn't it, when we look at something like this. It changes us daily. Some days we're gonna feel like we're on fire for the Lord. There's days that we're gonna feel like oh, I've got this, and you know, I'm I'm feeling like I'm on top of the world, and I just want to share and proclaim it and share the good news, and I'm out there and I'm this, that, and the other. And then as quick as that feeling comes, there's another feeling of oh no, I'm really I can't do this today. I'm feeling really like I'm not good enough. How can I go and speak to that person? Yeah, I can't go over there and speak to that person about God. You know, it's so quick that it changes, and that goes back to it's not about our feelings because that just shows how fit how how flaky feelings are. It's that foundation of him, and it's if we know in our core, in our fundamental state, that it's what he's done on the cross and that we're all flawed and we're all saved by grace, then we can still proclaim the good news, we can still go out there and save souls and share it, not by preaching, not by shouting with a billboard in the high street, yeah, but by just saying, Are you okay? Yeah, or can I help you with that? You know, like just being a good neighbor, a good person, like the Good Samaritan, you know, read the good Samaritan story. Just being a good person, that's the heart, and that's the heart centre, I think, that you know, God's seeking for in here when he's telling us about David and telling us about all those stories. It's that wanting the relationship with him, like David just sang, he sang to the Lord every day because that was his way of connecting to him, and and God loves that when we want to connect, yeah, and so it's having the heart for that.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

It is, and you know, uh something else that that I have gained over the past couple of years is is trust, trusting him, and you know, again with a fast-paced, fast-paced world is also that I have to solve everything, and it's not you're not gonna bring Proverbs 3.5 into this, are you?

SPEAKER_02 39:40

I wasn't, I wasn't, but you just said it.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Yeah, but uh but you know, we we are we have we've got problems every day that we need to solve, yeah. But we really should be inviting the Lord into those problems because otherwise our baggage is it's gonna be so heavy, you know, and and he tells us to take his yoke, his yoke is light. Yeah, um, you know, we're not designed to carry the weight of the world on our shoulders.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

We literally just see a visual of like a rucksack with rocks in it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

That's all I see when you talk about that, and and and so that's again when we when we pushed further into relationship with God, true relationship, yeah, not not our outwardly how the world perceives us, but inwardly, God knows that that depth in our heart and he knows the troubles that we carry. Yeah, and he he wants to help us with those. And so that's something that um there's really rest. Well it is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 40:30

It's about being honest and going deeper, you know. You know you're flawed, you know that you know you you're gonna have to work at it every day, you know that this is a journey, so it is just about being honest, and and knowing that none of that's failure, knowing you're flawed and knowing that you've got problems and things to work out.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

None of that is failure. That's just the if you allow it, that will be progress and it will be the making of you through the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

And he called for us to be transformed, yeah. Like he did, and and we know that you know, like we can be like we've been baptized and we can be a new you know, creation in him, but three years down the line we might need to be renewed, yeah. You know, because of the baggage and the weight of the work, you it's an ongoing journey, yeah, but it's recognizing that and it's wanting that, isn't it? And it's wanting him to go in and change your heart and see your heart and work with your heart, yeah, you know, to help you to be that, I think is the most important thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Absolutely. So before we finish, let's get our final thoughts. What's what would you say, or what could you offer to the folks watching?

SPEAKER_02 41:31

I would say that like any relationship, and something that you pointed out earlier was a marriage. Okay, so just like a marriage, you have to work at it, yeah. And it and it can be hard, but it's about biting for it. Yeah, and I know there's times, you know, in our relationship where we've had the highs and we've had the lows, and it's about even though you're on a low, you still love that person. And this is what I was saying about him being the foundation, you know, like we've been through really hard times, but I know that we're solid, so we may be on you know, going through a hard point in our life, we may be disagreeing on things in our life, but we still have that solid foundation of loving each other. So it's about fighting for that, you know. Like I said earlier about you know, watching that girl when she was like, No, we make Wednesdays for us, you know. That's their fight, yeah. That's that clinging to their time, like we do it, don't we? There's like certain nights where we go, nope, boys, we're not doing anything with you, it's not moving our extra additional time, going to bed on time, because we're having sofa time where we're just sitting and chatting and you know, whatever we're doing in that respect of trying to catch up with each other and having those moments, you know. So it's really important that you know, it's not just about ticking the boxes, like we said, about the title of this, it's not a religion, it's about a heart change, it's about have we actually changed? And it's looking at that. So this is just a relationship, just like you would do with your friends, you know, you check in on them. It's not just a case of keep, you know, wanting them to, you know, to nurture you and help you and feed you, it's a two-way street, and God's the same, He wants to give us everything, but He also wants to have that us to have that desire to have a relationship with Him. And we've said it before, it goes back to you know, like a child. So our boys we'll use them because it's an easy example, but I would not want them to love us because they have to love us, I want them to love us because they choose to love us, and that's what he wants, and that's why he came and gave us free will.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Yeah, not because he wants that for us. And you know, I think my thoughts on this are don't do things just because they look good. Yeah, God sees everything. And if you're doing something to outwardly look good, yeah, he already knows. Yeah, and and and it's not done with the intent that it should be. I'm not saying that you're doing it with no love or no care, but it's not doing with the true intent that you should do it without realising. So so really I think w as we progress on this journey, you I know I have had prompt that you should do pre pay for that, you should help somebody do that, you should go and talk to that person. You know, those works I know are true. Yeah, and it's not it's not me trying to tick a box or get brandy points, but um I feel the Lord prompted me to do those, so therefore I've I've gone ahead and done them, and those are the works that I'm interested in. Yeah, um they're there are obvious things, somebody in front of you falls, you pick them up and so on and so forth. Um, but I I don't want to find things to do to look good. Yeah, I want the Lord to tell me to do something because it needs done. And it's the right thing to do. And and I think the more that you go and you build a relationship with him, the more he will prompt you, the more you will see these opportunities arising and you'll step into the into that place. And quite often you find that is an inconvenience to you. And that's another way I know that it's the right thing to do. Um because if it's if it's if you're just if you're not going out of your way, then have you helped? Well, you kind of help, but it's not a sacrifice, is it? Yeah, you've not sacrificed anything. So generally, yeah, I find a prompt is I've got to go out of the way, or it's gonna cost me in one way or the other. Yeah, um, so that that's that's for my final thoughts, is just be mindful of those. Yeah, don't do it to look good, do it because the Lord prompts you. Yeah, and that's the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

It literally goes back to the Bible of the Pharisees, isn't it, versus Jesus? You know, they weren't doing it with the right heart, and he came to show the way, because he is the way, the truth, and the life.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

He is. And on that note, I think we've drawn to a conclusion of this episode. So, guys, thank you so much for joining us. We do appreciate it again. We love uh all the comments and the likes and the shares that you guys provide for us. Please keep them coming. We love to read your comments. Please keep sharing. Uh, we hope that it'll bring more joy and uh help people grow in their faith as well. So, guys, until the next episode, stay rooted in Christ, stay strong, and we'll see you soon. Bye,