Learning Theology
There is no more time to waste. Come alongside Jacob Sandholm on his journey to better understand the nature of God through his ThD education and beyond. On this journey, Pastor Jeff Cummings from the Pulaski Mennonite Church will also be a cohost and together, we will be tackling some of the hardest and complicated questions that Christians face today, while also digging deeper into the Scriptures that we have known since childhood. The mission of this podcast is simple: To glorify God by the consistent reading and learning of His Word and nature. Together we look to learn the Truth about the Nature of God, one Scripture at a time.
Learning Theology
Valleys Into Mountaintops
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In this episode, we discuss how life’s valleys can become mountaintop moments when we experience God’s presence in a deeper way. Through Scripture and personal experiences, we reflect on how God uses seasons of hardship to strengthen our faith, reveal His faithfulness, and remind us that we are never walking alone.
To God be the glory!
Episode brought to you by Christ Community Church of Davis County & Pulaski Mennonite Church
Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Learning Theology. My name is Pastor Jacob Sandholm, and I am with my brother in Christ, Pastor Jeff Cummings. This podcast is brought to you by Christ Community Church of Davis County, as well as a Pulaski Mennonite Church. Today's episode, as you have already seen, is going to be a little bit shorter than the ones that we've had before. But we're glad that you're with us. We hope that this will bring glory to the Father. I'm going to say a short word of prayer and then we'll dig in. So let's pray, everyone. Heavenly Father, Lord Jesus Christ, again, we just say thank you for this day. Thank you for the breath of life that you breathed into our lungs. Lord, I pray that during this podcast that you will be glorified. And God, I pray that you will be with the listener. Lord, I pray that as Jeff and I have discussions and as we just have a nice candid conversation, Lord, that your Holy Spirit will somehow move through our words and move into the ears and the hearts and the minds of those who are listening right now. And God, that they will feel your Holy Spirit. And Lord, we pray for your Holy Spirit to revive us each individually, revive our hearts, Jesus, so that there can be a wildfire of revival happening around our nation, around our communities, and even within our own homes. So, Lord, we thank you for this opportunity and we pray that you will be glorified in this episode. It's in Jesus' name that we pray. Amen. Now, before we really get started, I do want to say shout out to the individual. When we get emails from people, I'm not going to state their names because sometimes the requests that they have for episode requests or conversation requests might be a little bit more personal. So we're not going to do that. But I do want to say a big thank you to the individual who did send us an email and they gave us an idea as to what to do for an episode. And I do want to let you know that with this theme that you gave to us, we are wanting to do it and we're going to do it. We're just going to do a little bit more research, a little bit more homework on that before we dig into uh a nice theological conversation about that. Hopefully within the next couple of episodes. But with that being said, Pastor Jeff, how are you doing today, man? I'm doing, I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00Um, it's been a long month and a half. I've been having some health issues, so but spiritually, uh mentally, I am in a good place overall. Um, I trust that God has a plan, He has a purpose, and I'm confident that He has more for me to do. So, in that, I feel pretty good. Now it's just a matter of finding balance and figuring out how I deal with what's going on, but at the same time, do what I need to do.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Yeah, it's so good to have you back. For those of you who are listening, this is the first time I've seen Pastor Jeff in person since I think the last podcast episode, which was about a month ago at the end of March. At the end of March, if you've listened to our last episode, we had the episode titled Hope is an Anchor. And I discussed a lot about the stuff that I was going through and the struggles that I faced that we just could not meet for a podcast episode. And Pastor Jeff has been dealing with a lot over the past month now as well. Um, and so it is good to have you back. I think of James One. We talked a little bit about James One a little bit before this, but what James talks about, consider it pure joy when you endure all trials. Now, we discussed that's really focusing probably on the persecution of Christians that we do not feel, we don't face today. Um, but the way that you were able to just spin what you've been going through and say, you know what though, mentally and spiritually, I'm doing okay because you believe that God still has a plan for you, you believe that God is still using you, and you are seeing God work even in the midst of the valley.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I and honestly, like a lot of in my experience in my life, um, a lot of times when things go on physically and emotionally and mentally, in any way, shape, or form, whether it's grieving the loss of a loved one, whether it's being ill, whether it's experiencing a lot of pain, whatever it may be, I don't look at those personally as valleys. I actually look at those as being on the mountaintop. The reason why I say that is not because it's fun to go through those things at all. And it's not, but in those moments, I have clarity in the experiences I've had in my life growing up with health issues, being in hospitals a lot, being with lots of different doctors. One of the things I learned in those experiences, and then doing my chapmancy work, is when I go through those experiences, I've learned how to lean on God. And that's taken time. Like that's not something that just happened um quickly, but I had a really bad head injury when I was in middle school going into my eighth grade year, where I was in a trauma center in Pittsburgh for 10 days. And I literally sat, I'm well, I laid in a bed for 10 days, couldn't watch TV, had the room had to be totally dark, no light. And I got to sit there and I and I just spent time with God. I mean, that's all I did, and and I learned a lot in that experience about how to lean on God throughout that whole time because that was a three-month ordeal. So it's not like I got to that place overnight. This has been lots of years of going through this stuff and learning how to lean on God, to trust God. If I think about it, if you it's either Proverbs 2 or Proverbs 3. And Pastor Jacob, if you could look at that, it deals with the seeking out wisdom.
SPEAKER_01Proverbs chapter 2, I believe, is what we're looking at here. It's one of my favorites in the book of Proverbs. I'm gonna start here by reading right away at verse 1. My son, so this is from the son of David, the King Solomon. My son, if you receive my words and and treasure my commands within you, so that you incline your ear to wisdom and you apply your heart to understand. This is my favorite part here, the next two verses. Yes, if you cry out for discernment, if you lift up your voice for understanding, if you seek her, that is wisdom, as silver, and search for her as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find knowledge of God. In verse six, look at this. For the Lord gives wisdom, from his mouth come wisdom and understanding. Can you read real quick verses one and two? Mm-hmm. Verses one to two again.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Incline your ear to wisdom and apply your heart to understand. See, when I'm sick and when I'm in pain, and when I'm suff, when I feel like I'm suffering health-wise, it it keens my focus in onto that. That I need to apply myself and I need to seek it out. Because in those moments, it's because it's so easy in life to get so bogged down with all of the agendas and stuff that we have to do day in and day out, relationships we need to work on, friendships, building, making money, paying bills, doing all of these things, and all of those things are good things. Well, it's not paying bills, but yeah, well, it's not fun. But but those are all things we do in this life. But when when we have a chance to sit back and just say, okay, I'm going to apply myself to the God of heaven, and I'm gonna focus in and and and seek him out, then when we do that, something happens. So if you could just read Psalm 1 and we could connect this to Psalm 1, and I I just think they they flow perfectly together to help explain what I mean when I say when I'm in the valley, a lot of times I feel like I'm on the mountain.
SPEAKER_01I've never in my entire life, I've never heard anyone put those situations that you have found yourself in that you would consider that on the mountaintop. Like that's powerful. I've never heard that before. But but here's Psalm one, and I know this is like your favorite psalm, right?
SPEAKER_00Proverbs chapter two, which you just read, Psalm one and James one, I think hit upon the reality of the ultimate goal of life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Psalm one, here it is. Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the path of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree, planted by the rivers of water, that brings forth its fruit in its season, whose leaf also shall not wither, and whatever he does shall prosper. The ungodly are not so, but are like the chaff which the wind drives away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous, for the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
SPEAKER_00So go to Deuteronomy chapter six, I think it starts at verse four. And then we're gonna see how these connect, and then I I'll try to put words to my crazy thinking that when you're in the valley, you're on the mountaintop.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be f as frontless between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
SPEAKER_00And then in Jeremiah 29, verses I believe 11 through 16. Um, and I'm not sure, I might have missed it by a verse or two, but can you just read that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're digging deep. This is deeper than I thought we were going to go. I love it. For I know this is Jeremiah 29, verse 11, for I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and go and pray to me, and I will listen to you, and you will seek me and find me when you search for me and all your heart.
SPEAKER_00Pastor Jacob, when we read these verses, what is what do you find as the core theme in each of them? So I believe there's an overarching theme to this. In Proverbs 2, Psalm 1, there's a theme, and then in Jeremiah 29, I think is part of the process of figuring out how to apply.
SPEAKER_01Well, as we read all three of these, the the biggest thing that I see here is that if we seek the Lord, if we follow him, if we seek him out, he will he will be with us. We will be prosperous, we will find him.
SPEAKER_00So when I'm when I'm going through pain and suffering of any sort, or when I'm grieving, it gives me a keen focus and a realization of what I need to do in those times. And I think sometimes in life, I think a lot of people, including myself, for a long time in my life, didn't know how to do that. I didn't know how to like, okay, so what does God's law, how's God's law gonna bring me comfort? You know, how's that gonna work? Like, how how me being figuratively being a tree planted by a stream and sun, what does that even really mean? Like, it's very figurative language. What I've learned is is when I'm down and out and I can't lean on my own strength, and no one can fix my problems for me, I've realized that I have someone I can lean on. And because of what Jesus has done, I can lean on him, and I can take the time and space all the stuff, all the distractions of life out for a minute and say, okay, I can focus in on this. I can focus in on God's ways, God's purposes, and God's plans. And if I pursue him with every ounce of my being that Deuteronomy talks about, and I think about it and I process it and I and I pray to him and I go into his word, then I can find him in the midst. And David, another great example of that. Um, Joseph, another great example of that. It was it was in the trials and the tribulations of life, their trials and tribulations, Joseph being in prison, Joseph being a slave, all these things got him to where he needed to be. David being a shepherd boy, watching for his his sheep, the trials he experienced in his kingship and how he sought the Lord when he lost a child. We get a we have these pictures of in the midst of trial, in the midst of tribulation, these saints of old demonstrate to us what they did to lean on God in it. And we as human beings have to practice that process. And it takes time, it's not something that just comes naturally to us. And we see it, you know, when David lost his son, a child. He mourned, he grieved, he sought the Lord, he he prayed, he fasted, like he did his due diligence. And then when his son died, he cleaned himself up. And what happened? He acknowledged and recognized the fact that the God of heaven had his child and his goal was to get there so he could see his son again. Like we have these examples of trials and tribulations and how saints of old dealt with those trials and tribulations. Paul, you know, when he talks about it in one of the epistles, where he talks about he's been stoned, he's been beaten for Christ, and what did he do in it? He had joy and he celebrated it. And we have that even in the book of Acts. When the disciples first stood up for their faith, they were beaten. And what did they do when they came out of that beating? They came out and celebrated. How do you do that? How do you celebrate when you're being beaten? And that those beatings weren't a passive thing, like they were severe.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. That's exactly right. Just yesterday I saw a quote, I can't remember who it was from, but I saw a quote that said, I can't remember exactly how it goes, but sometimes it's okay when we hit rock bottom because we realize the rock at the bottom was Jesus Christ, the rock, the chief cornerstone. When we're at the bottom of the bottom, when we're in the mountaintop, you know, when we feel like we're all alone, then we have an opportunity to focus fully on Christ. So much of the time when we think of mountaintop experiences, we think of the greatest moments of our lives. But the way that you were putting it, you are stating that in those moments that you've been through, there is nothing else that can help, nothing else that you feel is around you that can satisfy except Christ. And that causes you to focus on him. That's exactly it.
SPEAKER_00And I do think there's a practical discipline in learning how to deal with pain. I think there's disciplines in the Bible that give clear instruction of how to deal with pain. And we just skimmed the surface of that in this in the handful of verses we we looked at.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And that's something that we're probably gonna be talking about hopefully in the next couple of weeks, too, is this topic on suffering and and like what can we do through suffering, what is suffering, all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00And then with that, though, and then there's the suffering piece, but then there's the piece of how pain and suffering and hurt and heartache and all these things can get you to a place where you lean on God the way God desires us to lean on him. And I and I think I think that needs flushed out more because the way that the Bible teaches it is it's it's a yearning and a longing for God. Not a yearning and a longing like God's not already there, but a yearning and a longing for the reality of what we will be when we see Jesus face to face, which takes us right back, right, to Genesis, right? It takes us right back to the beginning where Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden, right? Takes you right back to there. And that yearning and longing isn't like I'm desperate for something God hasn't given me. I'm desperate for that destination of where I'll be complete in what God created me to be from the beginning. And that is totally different than an idea of a yearning and a longing where it's like I'm missing, like I don't have something. God has given us everything we need, but we're not at a place yet where we fully experience the fullness of it until we hit what happens in Revelation what 22, where it talks about the reality of there'll be no more pain, there'll be no more suffering, there'll be no more tears. Like we will be exactly what God created us to be and intended for us in life. And we yearn and we long for that. And I think that encompasses the Josephs of the Bible, the Davids of the Bible, the Paul's of the Bible, the Peters of the Bible.
SPEAKER_01Amen. And another verse that I wanted to touch on here is Romans chapter five, where Paul says, Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into his grace, in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance and perseverance, character, and character hope. Now, hope does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who is given to us. And kind of to bridge that gap, I want to go to another verse here in Hebrews chapter nine, because what's really cool, and you know this, Jeff, is that every scripture that we've talked about, you can connect it together. So we just read Romans chapter five, and I wanted to remind us of when we go through these hard trials, like it's not for nothing, right? But also verse one and two, I want to read that again in Romans five. Therefore, having been been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand. Now, if we take that and we go to Hebrews chapter 9, starting with verse 19, it says, the author of Hebrews says, Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter into the most holy of holies, the holiest by what? By the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he consecrated for us through the veil that is his flesh. What justifies us? What do we believe in? What are we having trust in when we're on the mountaintop? When it feels like we're all alone, or we've hit rock bottom, you can say too, who is that rock? It's Jesus Christ, and whose blood was shed so that we could enter into the most holy of holies. We are justified by Jesus Christ Himself, right? And so through everything you've talked about, Jeff, and all leads to Christ, seeking him, and he will be there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And then and then that blood, that shed blood justifies us. And Pastor Jacob, if you can really quickly, can you go to the definition of boldness? Because I think the boldness piece is so important. Because the reality is, is do we as the body of Christ understand what it means that we're justified? Here's the reality: like Jesus, when he died on that cross and rose again on the third day, it says that our sins have been dealt with. They are no longer remembered in God's eyes because he sees that blood of Jesus, he sees Jesus in us. That's so powerful. So that we have confidence to be able to enter in. That's the whole piece that is so important. But the boldness piece is important because it's taught, it goes back to Passover.
SPEAKER_01The definition of boldness is exactly what you said. It is this is so good. It is a willingness to take risks and to act in confidence or to act courageously. The definition of just the word bold of a person, action, or idea showing an ability to take risks, confident and courageous.
SPEAKER_00The confident and courageous piece. We have to ask ourselves as a part of the body of Christ do we have confidence?
SPEAKER_01See, though, in the boldness definition, I take this because that says confidence and courage, too. It's a willingness to be courageous and confident. When you talk about faith and trust, we Can believe in Christ, but when you have do we trust in Christ to be willing to go to the throne, be willing to do what God has called us to do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I hear you, but in order to be willing, you have to have confidence first. A lot of times, I can't blanket statement that, but to me, like I have to have a knowledge of what God has done, and I have to trust and believe that Jesus actually dealt with my sin in order to feel the confidence to enter into the holies of holies with him and think that I can do that without acknowledging the power of God, acknowledging the fact that God created me and made me, and just with a breath of his mouth, I can be no more. Like that type of power. So that willingness, I think you almost have to have a sense of confidence in who you are in him before you're gonna have a willingness to do it. Because I I've just experienced so many people in my life that feel unworthy to have intimacy with God. I mean, I experienced that so much in Chabuancy, and I even experienced that in people that I've encountered that that are in the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think of it too, when you think of like a marriage, if you want this woman to marry you, she has to be willing to marry you. But how is she gonna be willing? By learning who you are, knowing you, getting to know you, loving you. Otherwise, she's not gonna take that next step. Exactly. So you have to be willing, you have to be confident in who this person is. And then once you are, then you're willing to be bold and to do this.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. That connects you right back to Proverbs 2 and Psalm 1, right? And Deuteronomy 6. All of it. It all connects, and that's why I say in the valley, I feel like my valleys are my mountaintops a lot of time in life. Because when I'm and everything's going good, everything's smooth, everything's running accordingly, I don't have the same focus and determination to experience God in a mighty way as I do when I'm in the valley.
SPEAKER_01That right there is that last line you just said was probably the most powerful line of this whole episode so far. Um, but man, it's so true. It's so true. When we're in the valley and we're going through these hardships and we feel Christ, we can feel the Holy Spirit, that is or should be our mountaintop experiences. When Christ is there with us, when we seek him, when we find him, that's what it's all about. And let's jump to Psalm 23. Absolutely. Psalm 23, and this is the perfect way to close out here this week's episode. I'm just gonna read the whole thing, and then we're gonna focus on on the middle here. But the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside the still waters, he restores my soul, he leads me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies, you anoint my head with oil, my cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. So, this whole episode, we've been talking about the valley. I asked you one question at the beginning, and that was How are you? And it led us into this discussion of the valley and of the mountaintop. And here in Psalm 23, we hear David speaking, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. It so that's darkness, right? We go through this hardship, but then it flips instantly. He says, But I will fear no evil, for you are with me. Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. And then look at this part your you will prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil, my cup runs over. Man, David didn't know what his calling was going to be in his life, but Samuel came, anointed his head with physical oil, which is two things. I mean, that show he was anointed to be the king of Israel, but that anointing was the Spirit of God poured out onto him. And from that moment on, Goliath was slain, David became king, amazing things happened. But what this tells us, and what this speaks to us is that though we will walk through these valleys, if we seek Christ, everything we've talked about thus far, if we seek Jesus Christ and we follow him, we meditate on his word day and night, we speak his words to our children, we we seek his face first, we understand that we can come boldly into the most holiest place because we are justified by his son Jesus Christ. If we realize all of these things, that we are in the valley, we can be anointed with that oil, and my friends, that is the Holy Spirit. And when we have the Holy Spirit with us, that brings us full circle. If we have the Holy Spirit with us, then those valleys can seem like mountaintops because he was always with us.
SPEAKER_00Because the rod and the staff and everything that's described there is God providing. And you lay down in green pastures, he gives you rest, he gives you his peace, he gives you his comfort, he stabilizes you, he holds you up with his firm right hand. And it all is a beautiful picture of that reality of those truths. Even in the midst of the trials and tribulations of life, God is with you and he goes with you.
unknownAmen.
SPEAKER_01Amen. That's amazing. Well, thank you so much, Pastor Jeff, for this. This is not the way I expected this episode to go, but this is a powerful way because I don't know how many people have heard that understanding that sometimes the valleys can become our mountaintops because Christ is with you. But that being said, it is time to wrap up. Pastor Jeff, could you say a short prayer for us as we close? Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Dear God Almighty, we just come before you. We thank you so much for your word and how your word can lead us and guide us and direct us, even in the worst of times and in the best of times. You promise us these great truths about how you are with us in every situation and circumstance. I thank you and praise you for how you are with us. I thank you so much for your word that helps guide, helps direct, helps lead, and allows your spirit to move in us, to sanctify our hearts, to become more like you each and every day. I pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much to you, Pastor Jeff, for your words today. It's so good to see you and I'm excited already for our next episode. For everyone else, we want to thank you so much for tuning in. This is Pastor Jacob Stanholm with Pastor Jeff Cummings, and this podcast, Learning Theology, is brought to you by Christ Community Church of Davis County and the Pulaski Mennonite Church. God bless all of you, and we will see you next time.