Suffering

In this episode of the Learning Theology Podcast, Pastor Jeff and Pastor Jacob explore how Americans understand suffering and compare those perspectives with what the Bible teaches. Together, they discuss the reality, purpose, and hope found in suffering through the truth of Scripture.

Episode brought to you by Christ Community Church of Davis County & Pulaski Mennonite Church

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Learning Theology. This is Pastor Jacob Sandholm, and with me is my brother in Christ, Pastor Jeff Cummings. And this podcast, as always, is brought to you by Christ Community Church of Davis County and Pulaski Mennonite Church. It is a joy to be back with you again this time on this episode. And today we will be answering, or I guess, doing the best that we can to answer a question that we received via email a little while ago. But we are so grateful and we are so glad that you have decided to join us today on this episode. And before we get started, Pastor Jeff, how are you doing? It's been about a month since we've been able to record. So how has life been for you?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Life is good. It's been a little bit of a challenge for the last couple months, but things are getting back on track. So things are going well.

unknown 1:01

Good.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Praise God. In our last episode, if you haven't watched or if you haven't listened to it yet, you should. It's called Valleys into Mountain Tops. That conversation went so much different than I thought it would last month, but it was it was awesome. It was powerful. And so um I appreciate you, Jeff, and your your um the words that came by way of the Holy Spirit through you last month. It was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

You too.

unknown 1:27

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

So um as we get started, we're gonna do something fun, but before we do that, I want to have a word of prayer. I'm gonna ask Pastor Jeff to lead us in in our opening prayer, and then we'll get right into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Let's pray. Dear God Almighty, we come before you. We thank you so much for the blessing and opportunity to be here today. We we ask that the words that come out of our mouths are of you, not of ourselves. We ask that we can um do honor to this conversation about suffering and what that looks like from a biblical standpoint and what that looks like just in life in general. We ask that you be with us, continue to lead and guide us and direct us in this conversation. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Now, as you said in your prayer, today's conversation, it's a tricky one. It's all about suffering. We received this email a couple of months ago asking someone if we would be willing to have a conversation about suffering. And as I said before we started the recording, um, we're not gonna try to tell you guys that we have everything completely figured out because we definitely don't. But because it is such an intense topic, I thought it would be a good idea and a fun idea to start us off with something that some may feel like is a little goofy, but we're gonna do it and we're gonna see what happens. I have a card in front of me. It is a Bible trivia card. What we're gonna do is I'm gonna ask Pastor Jeff three questions, and then he's gonna ask me three questions. There's six questions on a card, and we're gonna see our knowledge. Now, I have played Bible trivia before, and it never ceases to humble me. It is it is not easy. Um, so um, with that being said, if we don't know an answer, forgive us. But Pastor Jeff reminded me earlier, too, that when we read the word, it's not just to know everything about genealogy or everything that it specifically says, because you can know the word and not know Jesus. The most important thing is knowing Christ and how the word connects like a living thing, because that's what it is. The word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. But with that being said, we can still have fun with it. And perhaps you, the listener, and both of us might learn something today as we do this. So, Pastor Jeff, are you ready for your three questions?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Okay. Now, also to the listener, Pastor Jeff has never seen these questions before. Okay, he has no idea what's coming. So here we go. First one which prophet saw a vision of the valley of dry bones?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Ezekiel.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

That is correct. All right, the next one. This is a New Testament question. Okay, who prayed and raised Tabitha from the dead in the book of Acts? It was either Peter or Paul. Um a 50-50 chance. Peter. That's correct. Yeah. All right. Next one. For what did Esau sell his birthright? For what did Esau sell his birthright?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Soup.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Yes, soup and um you're right, but there's something else in there. I don't remember what the other one was. Soup and some bread. Oh, was there bread? Bread and some soup. Yeah, I'll give it to you. I'll give it to you. Yeah. Okay. All right. Now I'm gonna read the next three questions, so you just read the next three down. I have not seen these either.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

So Okay, I got it. Okay. The good Samaritan helped a beaten man on the road to what city? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Oh boy. See, this is digging. It's embarrassing sometimes, but um I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

I'm gonna say the one that got it right. It was Jericho. Jericho. Okay. Okay. I wouldn't have got that right either because I don't I'm not good with the geography or the genealogies necessarily. While the three disciples slept, how many times did Jesus go away and pray?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

When the bees I uh three? Yep, yeah, three times. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

What is the fourth command commandment? Yep. Fourth of it.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Um, oh boy. Okay. You gave me the easy ones. The fourth commandment. Okay. Do you know? Honor your father and mother. Final answer. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Remember the Sabbath day.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah, orders and things like that or destroying.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Well, like I said, these Bible trivias never cease to humble you, but me too. They remind they help you learn, and now I know for certain, um, I will remember that the Good Samaritan is on his way to Jericho. Jericho. The fourth commandment is the Sabbath. Sabbath. All right. Well, thank you, Jeff, for doing that. Yeah, yeah, it's just a fun thing to get us started. Um, so as we said earlier, again, our main topic today is suffering. And wow. We were we were involved with vacation Bible school last week, which is absolutely amazing. Um, it went so well, I thought. I just I thank all the helpers, I thank the leaders for setting that up. But with that, the whole the whole week was based on Psalm 23. And I know we mentioned the third day, um, I think it was the third day that that it was on Psalm 23, verse 5, third or fourth day. I'm talking about I shall walk through the valley of the even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil for your Raj and your staff, they comfort me, you are with me. And the curriculum discussed it as suffering that we go through, things like the loss of a loved one, going through a divorce, or you know, losing something. For example, yesterday I was driving from Pulaski back to Bloomfield, and I ran over there was something in the middle of the road, it was a two by four with a big nail sticking out of it in my lane, and I saw it, and I was gonna go, I was trying to get to the left lane to avoid it, but in my truck they have that lane assist thing, so it wouldn't let me quick enough get into the left lane. Sorry, I ran right over it, and uh a few hours later I had a flat tire. So, so you know, I think, but when I think of suffering in the American way of thinking, I think that's sometimes how we believe it to be. Like, oh, woe is me. I got a flat tire. You know, I I I drove through I drove over a two by four. But and I say that because what we're gonna talk about today is what we believe to be biblical suffering, what we see in the scriptures, what suffering really looks like and what it is. I guess at this time, if you want, I can read through some definitions of suffering. Yeah, okay. So I'm on this is a Bible hub, which is a great resource for doing studies. But here we see all the ways that in the Greek, in the New Testament, that suffering is used and some of the definitions for why it was used and what it means. So we have the Greek word storos that represents unspeakable pain, humiliation, and suffering. Another one being a part of malicious disposition, pain, experiencing hardship, a setback, and uh we have some more hardship. We have sickness. Again, so what I'm doing, I'm I'm looking through all the different Greek terms in the New Testament that's kind of reused, um, as well as well as some of the Hebrew, just to get an idea of what of all the type of suffering that we see. So, right here, uh in the Hebrew, pronounced keeb, which is a pain, they they define this as grief, which is interesting because we were talking about this grief, pain, sorrow, um, a physical or mental suffering, adversity, going through adversity, long suffering. So these are some examples of the definitions of suffering from the old text. Now, I know I didn't go into detail um exactly as to where this is in the text and how to pronounce all the words, but this kind of gives us an idea of what we see in scripture. So when we think of biblical suffering, if we put everything together, we can think of it as being a strong emotion towards the unspeakable pain, humiliation that we go through when we are when we find ourselves in malicious dispositions through hardships, persecutions, and as sometimes as well when we go through things like sickness or grief, pain, sorrow, all of those things, according to scripture, could be lumped under the term of suffering. So, again, that is a very complicated and big word to define in you know 45 minutes or to an hour to what we have this episode. So um, I'm I'll kind of give it to you, uh Pastor Jeff, for a second. When you look at these definitions, how are you feeling about this term suffering? Because I know, again, as we were talking about suffering um in terms of what David suffered, right, in Psalm 23, what he was talking about. How can you describe um that?

SPEAKER_00 10:58

So when you ask about when you talk about the definition of suffering, that was such a broad, um, all-encompassing kind of thing where any sort of grief, pain of any sort would be encompassed under the definition of suffering there in that context. So I I personally take it back to the garden and look at to begin everything off, when you think about God's original intent and plan for humanity was to be with him, to dwell with him, to be in his presence continually. And you look at the consequence of sin entering into the world, that consequence is what? You know, because of sin, there would be death and there would be toil in the world. So that I guess to me, that's the starting point in scripture of suffering. And I guess you could kind of take it from there, and you can go to a whole bunch of different passages in the scriptures where you see different types of suffering playing itself out. Um, you see it with Joseph, you see it with you see aspects of David's life, um, you see it with Job. So there's so many different contexts of suffering. I I mean you could even get into suffering with Gideon, and so that's kind of my thinking on it.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Like you said, the the definitions I gave was very it was very broad. If you don't mind, I like to read from Revelation 12. Whenever I have a conversation about suffering, I always like to point to the origins of why there is suffering, why there is evil, because again, it's complicated, but there is suffering because there is evil, and there is evil because there is good. God created all things, including humans and angels, to have free choice, and because of that, well, I'm not gonna read from it here, but Isaiah 14, we see an understanding of the angel Lucifer of the choice and the decisions that he made, wanting to overthrow God and and be and be above him. Well, because of that, we see what happens, Revelation 12, verse 7. This is kind of like a powerful flashback as to what happened because of Lucifer's pride. Okay, verse 7, and war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon and and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, the serpent of old called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now salvation and strength and the kingdom of our of our God and the power of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down, and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Now look at this next part. This is a big part of suffering, I believe. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea. For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. So now we talk about theology, you know, the nature of God, and kind of looking at the word and trying to bring things together. Satan was thrown down to the earth, and then, like a cunning serpent, deceives Adam and Eve. And at that moment it started where he is trying to, he knows he can't defeat God. He tried it already, he can't defeat him. And so now he has been trying for thousands of years, trying to deceive mankind to walk away from God. And because of that, unfortunately, Adam and Eve, because of that free choice too, they chose to disobey. And that was a conversation we had last week, Jeff, when we were talking about suffering. And I mentioned, I thought the idea, well, the devil causes suffering, but then you said, Hold on. It's also, or even more so, our disobedience. Adam and Eve's disobedience, they had that that choice that they made to be they were deceived, but they made the choice to disobey God. And from that, just like you said, that whole idea of suffering kind of began um with the human race. So, what are your thoughts on all this?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

I think there's some things that stick out to me in that in that context. One is some people maybe would disagree with us in the in a in terms of the free will component, but that's a whole nother topic for another day. But I also think that there is a component there where when I was doing my Chabmanzi program, where a lot of a lot of times I would go into these rooms and people would be sick or have a have a diagnosis that was um very severe, and maybe there wasn't uh anything the doctors could do to bring healing or to or to make them well again. And what the one thing that people would always say is, What did I do to make this happen to me? And I and I always kind of struggled with that question at that point in time in my life, and I still struggle with that question because I don't I believe there's consequences for sin, but I I never look at getting sick necessarily as punishment because Christ died on the cross for us. Um, that's a whole nother topic, too. But I I I struggle with that a little bit in that context to say, well, I got sick because I did something wrong. Because when you go back to the garden, what happened in the garden, the garden, it was the consequence for Adam and Eve's decision, and consequences for humanity, because I believe anyone that was in the garden would have been deceived, because we're all human, right? Um, I don't believe that was just an Adam and Eve thing. It was a it was a consequence based on their decision, but as a consequence also of humanity, in a sense, um, both and I I think. Now, some people maybe would disagree with that thinking, but anyway, I don't look at necessarily getting sick as punishment, I look at it as a consequence of fallen humanity. Because you go to Isaiah 53 and you go to the end of there where it talks about um by his wounds and by his stripes we are healed. That to me kind of pushes back on the idea that I got sick because I did something wrong, especially as a believer.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Well, yeah, if we believe in that, that's like karma, which is a which is uh a Hinduism belief. I I don't believe that you know the the better we live in this life, the better things God's gonna give us because then that's that's leaning towards a works-based kind of salvation, and then they believe in reincarnation, you know, and what what you're gonna be reincarnated as. Um, no, I I agree with you. I've heard people think that they suffer because of their parents' sin, too. I've heard of that. And then you're going on the lines of like generational curses, which that's in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

So it is I struggle with that a little bit too, because you don't I don't have a definitive answer against it in a sense. But in that sense, is you look at, you know, drug abuse or alcohol addictions, a lot of that is generational. Some of those struggles that people have, people that have been abused. Um, not saying that everybody that's been abused will abuse their a relative or a family member, but a lot of times that does kind of extend there has to be a breaking away of it or cutting it off. And so I I don't have a definitive answer against generational things, because I do think there is some reality to generational things, and I think we can break those things, but we have to be aware of them and we have to know how to pray against them. Um, and that to me is not necessarily suffering, but that's just the reality of living as humans in this world that there is a generational aspect to some things.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yeah, I wanna, as we're talking about this, um, I I was led towards Ezekiel 18. Okay. And Ezekiel 18 talks, the prophet talks about turning and living. Um, like he starts off in verse 19 of chapter 18. Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father? Because the son has done what is lawful and right and has kept all my statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul whose sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Um But then look at this part, too, verse 21. But if a wicked man turns from all his sins, which he has committed, he keeps all my statues, he does what is lawful, he does what is right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. And then he continues on down here where it says, Because he considers and turns away, verse 28, because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his way, says the Lord God, repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. And then Christ comes, we follow Christ. He is the one that can again save us from our sins, and he forgives us from these sins. But as I read this, I mean, according to the prophet Ezekiel, first of all, if a son is righteous, he shall not bear the guilt of his father, right? And second of all, if the wicked should turn away, repent, then he will be saved, then he will live. And so I am a believer. I am a believer that Jesus Christ can and has broken generational curses or sins in families. I'm a believer of that. I've seen it. Yeah, you know, and like you said, there has to be a moment where it's cut off.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

But we have to take ownership of that. That that's where the challenge comes in for me is is do you recognize it, do you recognize the need to repent of it, or uh recognize a need to be aware of the consequence of it, of the fact that my family alcoholism is a is a thing. Like a lot of people in my family struggled with that, you know. So I think you have to be aware of it, and then you have to say, what do I need to do? Or what is there a spiritual aspect to that? And I kind of believe there can be. Um And I believe that sometimes that kind of stuff has to be broken. And there has to be an acknowledgement of being prone to it or being prone to addictions in general. Some people were more addicted to things than other people. But I look at Abraham, I'm pretty sure, you know, God promised him that he'd live a long life. And part of that was because he was considered righteous because he obeyed God and he left his country. And then you go to Psalm 1, too, and there's another picture there in Psalm 1 where it talks about I believe there's a if you flip to Psalm 1 and you read it, there's a section in there where it kind of gives the impression that if you live upright and a moral life and you have a fear of God and acknowledge his ways and his laws that you'll live a long time. But there's always the the counter to that where there are people that die young that also are believers. And how do you how do you navigate those waters? I I don't have an answer for that personally. Um why that that occurs that way. I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

I I was having a conversation yesterday with a couple of guys, and they asked me, how do I tell someone if they ask, so why did this why did this person have to go through this? Like, and they said, I want to be able to give an answer to them. And I said, Well, so I I told him, I said, there's off the top of my head, there's two things that you can say to them. The first thing is that we live in a fallen world, and because we live in a fallen world, we're gonna have suffering, we're gonna have disease, we're gonna have cancer, we're gonna have all these things because we live in a fallen world. And then the second answer is I don't know. Things happen to amazing people, things will happen to very righteous people who follow Christ, and then yet the wicked will prosper. David writes about that in other psalms, he laments about that. Like it doesn't seem right. I think it's in Habakkuk 3, too. He he's lamenting or crying out to God. I guess he's more so complaining, but saying, you know, where is the justice? Why, why are good things happening to bad people and bad things happen to good people? Well, Jesus was the greatest man of all time. I mean, he didn't sin, he was loving, he he he walked in truth. Good things in an earthly way of thinking, good things didn't happen to him. I mean he suffered. He suffered. And in Hebrews, we hear the author of Hebrews tells us that we serve a high priest who is not unable to sympathize with us in our weaknesses. There's no true answer that anyone could, I think, really give as to why this thing happened to this person. That's not for us to know.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

I would agree, but I mean, I think biblically speaking, though, the answer to all of that is the reality of we live in a fallen world. You know, like bad things happen, and the Bible clearly states that bad things happen. That's not fiction, or like bad things do happen. But then on the other hand, you know, you say, Well, Christ suffered, yeah, he did, he suffered, but he lived a sinless life, and that suffering was also in God's plan in order to bring the blessings that was promised to Abraham in the old testament. Right to Jesus live a good life, he had an intimacy with the Father, so in some sense, he had intimacy with the Spirit, he still had that relationship with the Father and the Spirit in his life.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Spiritually speaking, absolutely, I think, but that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

So, like, yeah, he he went through suffering and pain, but did he still have the joy of the Lord? I would say yes, exactly. So I struggle with that, yeah. He's he suffered and he he went through pain and he cried. He mourned, you know, he mourned the loss of Lazarus, Lazarus, and he cried over Jerusalem. He mourned over Jerusalem. He's at and he also said things like, I have nowhere to lay my head. So, yes, he suffered, but he also, in some ways, I would say spiritually, he he overcame, and it talks about the Bible, he overcame the world.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Yes, absolutely. He he went through all these things for our sake, so that we could we could be saved. That doesn't take away the fact that he did endure earthly hardship and torture and all these all these brutal things, but it was to fulfill the prophecy.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Oh no, today we're getting into some topics that I think are there aren't easy answers to because it you can you can go in scripture and you can see, well, you know, God promises people that live a godly life that they'll live a long time. And then in other situations, we see people that we think live a godly life and they don't live a long time. So how do you how do you balance how do you balance those two things out? I don't have an answer for that.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

But again, spiritually speaking, I think we can also look at this from a spiritual con text as well. Those who believe in Christ will live a long life, they can live eternally in eternity, eternity, exactly. I mean, so we can look at it in that way too. And you you said earlier, you know, there is a spiritual aspect to all this suffering, and I mentioned in Revelation 12, we see that war in heaven, and Satan came down to earth, woe to the inhabitants of the earth. And so, would you agree, Jeff, that the suffering we see in the world today? Do you think a lot of what we see is due to spiritual warfare? The battle between Satan. In your words, how is Satan moving today? There's a lot of the suffering that we're seeing because of that warfare in the spiritual sense, in the spiritual realm.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

There's a spiritual aspect to everything in life. Satan's out to kill, destroy, do all that kind of stuff. I think, in the context, if you're talking about suffering in terms of human aspect of life, there can be a spiritual component to that for sure. I think everything spiritual component, but you mentioned the addictions.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Like, do you think Satan has ropes around families, around people that are stuck in addiction, generational addictions? And the only way to break free is that.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

I'm careful to say that Satan has it around them. I I think more so it's we are prone to certain things. I'm careful to give Satan that much credit to be able to say that he boxed people in because Jesus already said in Colossians, what is it, where he talks about he's Satan's already been defeated. Biblically speaking, Satan's already been defeated. So I don't give Satan that much credit. A lot of what Satan does is he can entice, he can encourage, he can manipulate, he can lie, he can deceive, he can do all of those types of things. But ultimately, we're still responsible for the choices we make, right? So in that context, in that context, I don't give Satan the credit of saying, well, he causes people to get sick. Does he have the ability to do that if if we are not in line with Christ? I believe he probably has that ability, but I don't give him that credit necessarily. Not to go too far down this path, but I think also we've learned from science that there is genetics and there's a genetic component to things too. That is how do you understand that?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Live in a fallen world, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

You don't want that to be a cop-out answer, but the reality is we're imperfect, right? And that's why we need a savior. I was gonna say, yeah, we don't need to give Satan more credit than he ever deserves, but we should also acknowledge that without Christ, he is stronger than us humans. I because I lived thinking a while that even without Christ, I'm stronger than Satan. That's not true. No, that's not true, but with Christ, he doesn't stand a chance. Biblically speaking, we know who wins. So, with that being said, the suffering that we go through here in America, the loss, the grieving, the pain, the physical pain, emotional pain, whatever it is, spiritually, we can get through those moments with knowing Christ. You think of other places around the world, more of the persecution type of suffering. You think of Nigeria and Africa. They're getting slaughtered because of the Syria, Iran, I mean all over the world, Russia, all over the world, China, people in Turkey meeting underground. That's legit like persecution. And that's not just losing a loved one. That is you're every day you wake up, you might die because of your faith. Like, that is suffering too. That is that is persecution. But they continue. I I've seen people in Nigeria, I've seen interviews when their children, their family members were just slaughtered in church the day before, and yet the next day, what do they do? They go back to the place they worshiped, that they worship again in that same place. Like, how can you do that? And that leads me to two verses, Pastor Jeff. The first one, they're very similar, they both come from Paul, but the first one, 2 Corinthians chapter 10, he said, I'm gonna skip ahead to verse 3. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, which means fleshly, but they are mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. And of course, the second one you could probably guess comes from Ephesians chapter six, starting with verse 10, where Paul talks about putting on the armor of God because we wrestle against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age. Our battle is not against flesh and blood. We cannot win a spiritual battle with guns and swords, right? We win a spiritual battle with faith, with the word, with prayer and praise, um, with love, the love that comes from Christ, a righteous type of love. And so when we look at suffering, I don't know if the question is the question that non-believers and believers too always say is why is there suffering in the world? If God is so good, why does there have to be suffering? Perhaps the question should become, or not even a question, perhaps the statement should be because God is so good, we can endure the suffering.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Well, there's another aspect to that too. I mean, there's another verse that Paul wrote, and I don't I think it's in Corinthians, but I'm not 100% sure. But he talks about the potter and the clay, and we are all jars of clay, and it's and the clay is cracked, the cracked clay, and that cracked clay is also representative of the reality of God's light shining through the cracks. It's in my weakness that I am strong, right? Um that I think that is where Christians, when we come against complaints about God and dealing with suffering and pain, and why does God allow it? I think we have good answers for why God allows it, but I also think we have good answers for what God does in the midst of it. David, even though I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for thy rod and thy staff comfort me. But how's the end of it go?

SPEAKER_01 33:30

You prepare a table before you prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies, my cup overflows, you anoint my head with oil. Surely I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

There you go. I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. So even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, even though I deal with pain, suffering, mourning, grieving, loss, um, maybe emotional turmoil in my own mind, um, in the midst of all that, what? His rodness staff comfort me. We have this recognition of the fact that in the midst of the challenges of life, God is with us. Also in the Bible, it talks about Jesus as our high priest. What does Jesus do in the midst of it? He can relate to our suffering, he can relate to our pain because he experienced the same pain, the same suffering we have experienced. He experienced loss, he experienced grief, like he can relate to us. So in the midst of it, we have an opportunity to seek him out. That's why I say, like the last podcast we did, the valley in my life, the experience in my life is when I'm in the valley is when I'm out my high. Because then I can say I can't do this on my own, so I gotta lean on someone. And a lot of times the only person I can lean on is God, in a genuine sense. So for me, like suffering and pain and all of that stuff should put us in a place of humility to really strive and seek for the Lord. And I believe like you see that with David when he mourned the loss of his child. He grieved, he mourned, he fasted, he prayed, he sought God. And then after his child died, what did he do? He got dressed, he got ready, he went on about his day, recognizing that that child was in God's hands. That kind of faith.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

One of my favorite Psalms is also Psalm 42. As the deer pants for the water books, so my soul pants for you, oh God. My soul thirsts for God for the living God. When shall I come and appear before God? My tears have been my food day and night, while they were continually saying to me, Where is your God? When I remember these things, I pour out my soul within me, for I used to go with the multitude. I went with them to the house of God with the voice of joy and praise with the multitude that kept a pilgrim feast. And then verse five, Why are you cast down, O my soul? Why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God, for I shall yet praise him for the help of his countenance.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

I think with that verse, we gotta dissect out a little bit. What is hope? Right? That's a big topic, too. Because hope, in a sense, a lot of people think of hope. What do they associate hope with in the world? If you go to somebody that doesn't know the Bible, if you say, What do you have hope in? Hope a lot of times I think it's defined as luck.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Right? You're right.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Like you associate hope with luck, or hope as like pulling a million dollars out of a hat.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Gambling luck, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Yeah, they they will associate hope with that, which hope is a confident expectation of a future thing. It's it's just recognizing the reality that God is faithful, God has proven over and over again that God is faithful to the promises that he gives. And in that faithfulness of his promises, we have a confident expectation that we will be with him.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Absolutely. Hebrews 6. This hope is Jesus for a Christian. I mean, for mankind, that's what it should be. Verse 19 of chapter 6 in Hebrews, this hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become high priest forever.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Hope it's not luck, it's a confident expectation of a reality that he's returning.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah, he's coming back.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yeah, and a confident expectation that God is with you in the midst of trial and tribulation, right? Like Joseph. Joseph, what happened when he met when he came and his brothers came to him and he were he recognized who they were? What did he do? He went off, he cried, he mourned. What did he cry and mourn about? That they abandoned him and they were ready to kill him. Like he mourned over that. But what how did what was his response in it? His response was a godly response to that to being kind of forsaken. Yeah right? He had a godly response. How did he have a godly response? Because he had a he had confidence in the fact that God was preparing him for something greater. Because remember the vision he had at the beginning where he saw his his brothers kneeling before him. That vision was a reality, and his brothers and his father, what did they say to him? They doubted it. They they said, No, what are you saying? You're better than us, you're prideful, you're arrogant. Was that a vision from God? They doubted it. And Joseph's response was, I know that this is what God has for me. He had faith, trusted and believed in God.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

It was that same faith that David had. That's why that's why he wrote, Even though I walk through the valley, you are with me. Look at hope and confidence.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Right. Look at Job. Job's response when his wife told him he should just curse God and die. Job was like, No, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

How about another in the New Testament example? After Peter and John are arrested in Acts 4, they go back to the dwelling place of their brothers and sisters in Christ. They tell them what happened, they pray for boldness, and what did they do? They go out and they preach Jesus more, even though they were told not to. It's that hope, confidence in Jesus, even in the midst of persecution, to keep going because they had that hope that remained steadfast.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

And it wasn't that was beaten and whipped, and they came back and they celebrated, and we're like, uh, it was in Acts. But I can't remember if it was Paul or if it was Peter and someone else.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

So Peter and John were arrested by the Sanhedrin. Um, this was Acts chapter 5. Acts chapter 5, verses 40 and 41 is what it looks like here. So they went on their way from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they had been that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for his name. Yeah. After giving them a thorough whipping, they warned him not to speak in Jesus' name, and they sent them off. But then they went out to the high high council overjoyed because they had been given the honor of suffering. Like that's yeah, that's incense. Given the honor of being whipped.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

And Paul makes the same argument when he talks about being um jars of clay and having cracks in the pot. Like, like Paul in a good way was bragging in the sense, I've been beaten, I've been whipped, I've been stoned, I've had all these things done to me for my savior. And and I consider it, I consider it joyful to go through it. It's a different mentality, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:24

And you know, church tradition also talks about Andrew when his time came to be martyred, that he was gonna be crucified, and he was walking up to the cross, and he says out loud, I have I am joyful, for I have waited for this day to die a worthy death for my Savior Jesus Christ. Like he wasn't scared of the cross, he said, How amazing is it that I get to show this, my love for Christ in this way? Like mind blowing. It just continues. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. That is those are examples of people taking suffering through persecution and even at the point of execution, but they don't let it destroy them.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

You have modern-day examples of that. Martin Luther King being willing to go to prison for the sake of justice, yeah, equality, yeah. Equality, like, like you have modern day examples of this, of this reality of people being willing to suffer for their faith. Anyway, but back to the context of suffering.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Suffering can do wonderful things for people, and I think that's one of the things that we need to focus on is I think that's I think that's contrary to what the human mind first thinks about when it thinks of suffering.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yeah, because when you think about like in the gospel where Jesus talks about knock and you shall find, that knocking in the Greek is actually a continuous knocking, it's not knock once and stop, it's a continuous knocking, it's it's striving for intimacy, it's striving for for Christ to open the door. Like God wants us to be persistent in our pursuit of Him, persistency. And and most a lot of people think that's arrogant. Why should God come to me and talk to me? Why I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy of that, you know. That that self-righteousness in a in a context of almost cutting your legs out from under you before you even experience God, and God desiring to experience God desiring for you to experience him, but you saying, Well, I'm unworthy, I don't deserve that, so I'm not gonna even strive for it, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Because I think we also have the other way of thinking, I don't need God, I am my own God, I'm I'm just fine by myself. Why would I need him? You know, that that other way of thinking that you're too worthy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Then then it's the you have both ends of that, but suffering and pain and hardship should drive us to God, and that's the beauty of suffering. If you can look at it that way, it reminds me of what is it, Psalm 2. That the idea of seeking out wisdom like treasures like silver and gold.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Proverbs two.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Proverbs two, sorry, I said Psalm. Proverbs two, right? Just read a little bit of it and you catch this intensity about this striving for something that I think is is profound, and I think sometimes that comes from an acknowledgement that in this world sometimes the only thing we can lean on is something bigger and stronger than ourselves. Hopefully, that gets you to the place where you see God.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Amen. It doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter how much power you have, your position, whatever it is, all of us, every single human being, will encounter some form of suffering. Yeah. I mean, whether it's Americanized suffering or perhaps a time will come where we as believers will have to face this intense persecution as believers in Christ. And everyone will realize at some point that they are not strong. By themselves. They can't do it by themselves. They can continue to think that they are, but they will continue to find that they're not. And in moments of desperation, when you hit that, when you hit rock bottom, you know, when you're in exile, those are the places where God strengthens, He refines us, He purifies us. And but for those who don't know Christ, a lot of the times those are the places where they actually find Him for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

The whole idea of people praying for brokenness, a lot of people will never pray for brokenness. But I say it's one of the greatest gifts we have. Seriously. Because when you pray for brokenness, you're praying that God will do the work that God needs to do in our hearts and God needs to do in our minds. That idea of transformation, that process of transformation, going under the knife, removing something that's not supposed to be in your body. But we don't think in the spiritual context of there's things in our spiritual life and our soul that need to be dealt with, that need to be removed or need to be thinking needs to change. Attitudes need to change, behaviors need to change, whatever it may be. There's a famous nun, there's a nun, and one of her things, and I don't remember which nun it was, it was Teresa Vivilla or one of those. I don't remember. But anyway, there's a story there of a castle or whatever, and it talks about the attic and the basement of your house. And in the attic and the basement of your house are places where you don't really dwell. Like you probably don't hang out in your basement necessarily if it's a dungeon benjamin, or you're not hanging out in your attic. But you get cobwebs, you get dust up there, you get crud and dirt and all that stuff, and you don't want to be up there. And it talks about the reality of do you allow God into your life in a manner where your living room and your attic look the same? And the idea is that the attic is those areas of your life where you're not allowing God in. And the basement maybe is areas of your life where you're not allowing God in. And will you open yourself up to allow God into those areas of your life so that you are genuinely transformed?

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

That whole idea of sanctification. Yep. That m mindset of being transformed in the image of Christ and allowing God into every aspect of your life. And most of us have areas of our lives whether we recognize it or not, or we don't allow God in.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, that's why Paul says in Romans 12, you know, present yourselves as a living sacrifice to God so that you will know his perfect and pleasing will, the perfect pleasing will of God. If we don't recognize that we are broken, you know, like you said, praying for brokenness, if we don't recognize that we are broken, then there's no need for a savior. If we don't think there's anything broken, we don't need to fix it. We don't need healing. We don't need healing. But that's just sorry to say, ignorant to believe that, because man, we need healing.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

And some of the most amazing experiences I've had are people on their deathbed.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Because people on their deathbed come to a recognition, oh my goodness, I'm at the end of my life. Now I gotta figure this out. Like, what happens after this? You know, like there's so many people, there's so many Christians that have experienced that. They didn't get to the end of themselves until they were on their deathbed. They recognized that they needed to tell people in their lives, sorry for this, or I need healing for this situation, or whatever it may be. That happens all the time. And I I preached on this the other day. I mentioned in one of my sermons, I said, hopefully you come to the end of yourselves before you're on your deathbed, so that you can truly experience the reality of Christ in your life.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Amen. You know, absolutely. Just like you quoted Paul earlier for when I am weak, I am strong. He glories in the persecution, the insults, all these things because he knows that Christ is within him. When we are broken and we believe in Christ, we know that he's using our brokenness for his glory. We might not be able to see it right now, how or why he's gonna do it, but but he will. So we are at the end here of our time, but this topic of suffering is so broad. And obviously, it is our hope that God has been glorified through this conversation and that this has helped the list, helped all you guys, the listeners, kind of gain some perspective as to what suffering is and how God can use the suffering for glory and to shift it into something for our good as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Any last comments, Jeff, before we pray out? Yeah, we hit up on some tough topics and some some areas where we don't have answers for. And I think that's awesome. That's the beauty of recognizing the reality that God is bigger and knows more than we do.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

Amen. Speaking of believing in a God that's bigger than us, let's pray to Him as we close out. Heavenly Father, again, we give you praise, we give you glory for this conversation. Lord, we we never know exactly how these conversations are going to pan out. But Lord, I I'm confident that that through your Holy Spirit, Lord, the words that were spoken and the words that will be um spread out to those who listen to this, God, that Lord, I'm confident that you will use them for your glory. Lord, anything anything at all that we said, Lord, that that might not be glorifying to you or might be considered false, Lord, according to your truth, I just pray that you will remove it and that it will fall on deaf ears. Um but Lord, ultimately I do pray that those who listen to this, God, will recognize that you are in the midst of our brokenness. Lord, that those who might listen to this might realize that we need to give our lives to you, Jesus. Um Lord, that we need to come to know you before the walls fall down in our lives. For you are our safeguard. You are our our mediator, you are our everything. And so, Lord Jesus, we we thank you, we give you praise for this opportunity, and Lord, I just pray that your word um will go into the ears, and Lord, that they will saturate our uh our spiritual lives, God, as we move forward. Lord, thank you for this time together, and Lord, until next time, I pray that you will be glorified in the things we do and in the lives we live. It's in Jesus' name we pray, amen. All right, well, thank you so much to you guys who are listening and who decided to tune in to another episode here of Learning Theology. Again, my name is Pastor Jacob Sandholm, alongside Pastor Jeff Cummings, and this podcast is brought to you by Christ Community Church of Davis County and the Pulaski Mennonite Church. We encourage you to get into your local church. We want to encourage you to open the word, to pray, and to grow in intimacy with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because He is everything. Thank you again for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on Learning Theology, where we learn about the nature of God one scripture at a time.