Learning Theology
There is no more time to waste. Come alongside Jacob Sandholm on his journey to better understand the nature of God through his ThD education and beyond. On this journey, Pastor Jeff Cummings from the Pulaski Mennonite Church will also be a cohost and together, we will be tackling some of the hardest and complicated questions that Christians face today, while also digging deeper into the Scriptures that we have known since childhood. The mission of this podcast is simple: To glorify God by the consistent reading and learning of His Word and nature. Together we look to learn the Truth about the Nature of God, one Scripture at a time.
Learning Theology
Baptism: A Life-Changing Commandment?
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What is baptism all about? Why did Jesus command His followers to be baptized, and what does this ancient practice actually mean for Christians today?
In this episode of Learning Theology, we go back to the basics of baptism and explore its biblical meaning and significance. From the imagery of death and new life in Romans 6 to the promise of cleansing and a new heart in Ezekiel 36, we’ll unpack what Scripture teaches about this powerful act of faith.
Whether you’re new to Christianity, preparing for baptism, or simply looking to better understand why Christians go into the water, this episode is a chance to dive deeper into one of the most recognizable—and meaningful—practices of the Christian faith.
Episode brought to you by Christ Community Church of Davis County & Pulaski Mennonite Church
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Learning Theology. My name is Pastor Jacob Standholm, and alongside me is a fellow brother in the faith, Pastor Jeff Cummings from Pulaski Mennonite Church. And speaking of Pulaski Mennonite Church, as it has been in the past, it still is, this podcast is brought to you by Pulaski Mennonite Church as well as Christ Community Church of Davis County. Once again, it has been a while since we've been able to come to you, but we were able to release an episode a month, a month and a half ago along the lines of suffering. And before that, we spoke about how valleys turn into mountaintops in an episode that really became different than what we expected it to be. But nonetheless, we are so grateful to be back. And our hopes for both Jeff and I is that we can start to build a little bit more consistency. We have not given up on this podcast by no means. It's just making sure that we can navigate the ministries that God has granted both of us to take care of and also to try to navigate this ministry that I believe the Lord is calling us to continue as well. So as we get started, Jeff, I want to ask you how has your summer been? We're almost to the fall now. So how are you doing? I'm doing really good.
SPEAKER_01Excited about this opportunity to share with you about baptism and get this conversation going. But summer's been good, kids have been good. We stayed pretty healthy. So I cannot, I do not have any complaints.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Praise God. Same here. It was a good summer so far. This week in Davis County, it's like 95 degrees every day, so the summer is still here. But uh we're we're almost there, we're almost to fall. Football is back, pumpkin spice lattes are back. So I'm excited. Fall is my favorite season. Um, but as we're nearing the end of summer, I do want to ask you, kind of just a fun question here to start this podcast off. What's your favorite part about summer? Is it the weather? Is it the activities, the vacations? What's your favorite part?
SPEAKER_01I'll be honest with you. I summer is not my favorite season. I really do not like extreme heat, so I like it a little cooler. But my favorite part of summer, usually, if I have the opportunity, is to go to the ocean at least once in the summer. And I did not get the chance this year to do that.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Have you so which oceans have you been to? Have you been to Atlantic and Pacific both?
SPEAKER_01Most of my ocean experiences, I believe, are on the east coast. Okay. And in Florida. That is pretty much it.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Yeah, the Atlantic. I've I've been to the Atlantic once when I was in Maine. I've been in Florida a couple of times, and then I was in Seattle on the Pacific Ocean beach once, which was pretty cool. Um, but awesome. Yeah, I see, fall is my favorite time of year because I do love the little bit cooler weather. I don't like winter because I don't like snow. I always told my wife that if we ever had to leave Iowa, which I love Iowa, but if I ever had to leave, it would be Florida. I'd rather have hot than freezing cold if I had to choose between two. Um, but regardless, um, we are grateful for for any day that the Lord has given us. And in Iowa, we get every season. So that is a that is a gift. So today, as we navigate here near the end of summer, a couple of weeks ago, I had one of the biggest moments of my personal spiritual life. And alongside of, oh I believe, was it nine or ten other people, including my wife, actually, where I made the commitment um to be baptized and to be immersed in water. Today, we are going to be talking about baptism. Baptism has been, well, is, and rightfully so, one of the most important topics and most talked about topics in the Christian faith. Um, and it has been forever. Um, but Jeff, I want to ask you to pray us in before we dig into the word and everything, and then we'll get more into what baptism is. Sounds good. Let us pray.
SPEAKER_01Almighty God, I just we just come before you. We thank you for this time to be together. We pray that this conversation about baptism honors and glorifies you. Um, allow it to resonate within our spirits and allow it to resonate within the spirits of those that are listening, and um, that maybe someone will make the decision to be baptized based on these conversations. We just pray for your spirit to move in the conversation and that we honor and glorify you in the midst of what we discussed today. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen. So, as I was saying, a couple weeks, uh a month or two ago, I got I got immersed and I was baptized, and I'll be honest with you, I was stubborn for a couple of years. I was baptized as an infant, and at that point, as I got older, I honestly didn't think it meant anything. I didn't understand the concept of baptism. My parents had me baptized when I was a baby, and even when I went through confirmation in the church that I was baptized in, I was in eighth grade. I didn't even know what confirmation was for. I was able to join the church. I became a member of the church after I was confirmed, but I didn't know that it was actually to confirm my faith in Christ and to confirm the baptism. Um, that I was a baby. And we're not going to get into what type of baptism is right or anything, but we're just going to talk about what baptism means to us, what the scripture says it is. But for the longest time, I was baptized as an infant, but it wasn't until 18 years old when I felt the call to ministry. And over the next like four to five years, I really was going through this transformation in my life. And at this point, I mean I'm I'm closer with Christ and I'm deeper with Christ than I ever have been. I made the choice to be baptized again as an adult. I was able to make the choice for it. So, Jeff, would you mind kind of sharing your baptism story? Because I know you got baptized kind of recently too, um, when you became the pastor here at Pulaski.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would love to share. Um, I growing up, I I guess my stories kind of growing up, um, I had the opportunity to experience God in powerful ways through missionaries and through my church. And I was the same as you. I got baptized as an infant, but then I became really good friends with my pastor. So I was able to have conversations with him about it, where that's where you and I a little bit differ. I think that you weren't really aware of what you know confirmation was about or what baptism necessarily meant at that point in time. I kind of had the privilege of learning that because my my best friend was pastor's son. Um, so baptism was important to me. I don't know so much as an infant, but as I've grown, I recognize the significance of it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Over the last couple of years, I have really grown interested in baptism. And as we're going to talk about here in a second, I was starting to feel convicted because I believe scripture shows us. Um, if we're reading it, scripture shows us that baptism is a commandment from God. And God has been using me. I do all that I can for him. I mean, he is he is my main love. I mean, God first, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. But for some reason, I was holding back from being baptized as an adult because perhaps of what people would think, you know, I've been a pastor for the slogan and I haven't been, you know, I wasn't immersed, I haven't been baptized. Um, but obviously those aren't good reasons. And so just read just within this last year, I I finally decided, you know, reading the scriptures. Well, I I fully believe, and I want to proclaim that belief to God that I am his, that the way that he has worked in me, the way that he has worked through me, it is all for his glory. And so when I was baptized a couple a couple months ago, that there was there there's a powerful symbolism there, and I believe that symbolism is found in the scriptures. But when I came up out of the water, and as I was helping baptize others who were coming up out of the water, there was this this new excitement, this new this reality that the past is is gone and the new life has come. And so I wanted to ask you, Jeff, when you were baptized, because I think I saw a video of it. You were baptized in a pond. You were it was outside um when you were immersed. What did it feel like for you when you came up out of the water?
SPEAKER_01Um for me, I guess it was just it's just an affirmation and a reminder of what I feel like God's been doing in my life already. That was the biggest thing for me. Like I, to be honest with you, I I felt I didn't feel like me getting me being baptized as an adult changed anything for me, being baptized as an infant for me personally, because I feel like um God worked in my life and I've experienced God in powerful ways, and I see how God has changed my life. And I just wanted to be an example to my church saying that even as an adult, we need to be remembering our baptism and we need to be practicing dying to self, rising with Christ, understanding and taking to heart and mind the reality of what it means to be a new creation. And that's one of the things I would love to have a conversation about and flush out. What does it mean to be a new creation? What does it mean to die? What does it mean to rise again from a biblical perspective? And that's the things I'm most interested in when we talk about baptism is what does it mean? And then how does it how does it become a reality in our lives and how do we know that God is moving in a manner where he's changing our hearts and minds?
SPEAKER_00Amen. Yeah, that's powerfully put. So, in terms of getting an understanding or grasp of what it means, again, like I said, I didn't really know what baptism meant until you know I was early in my 20s. I'm 29, so it hasn't been that long until I finally got a good grasp as to what baptism is. So, literally spoken and linguistically spoken, the Koine Greek term, which was the way that the New Testament was written, um, the original New Testament in Biblical Greek, baptizo, it literally means to submerge, to go under, to be to be immersed. That's the word I'm looking for, to be immersed and to completely be submerged. And so when it comes to when it comes to baptism, you know, I was sprinkled as a baby, but I was not submerged, obviously. And the whole idea of what you just said, dying to self or dying and then rising again, I think we see here from a couple of scripture examples, first from Romans 6, and it ties in beautifully, almost identically, not completely, with Colossians chapter 2 as well. I want to read a little bit from Romans 6 right now, okay, and then we'll and then we'll have a little conversation about that. What shall we say then? This is from the Apostle Paul. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not. How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Now remember, Paul does say the wages of sin is death, right? So he says, How can we who have died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death, therefore we were buried with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of his death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of his resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man, I love how he puts that, our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Before I knew Christ, I was dead to my sin, I was a slave to my sin, I was who I thought I was going to be forever. But when Christ came into my life, when he called me into ministry, when I finally went on my knees and gave up the habitual sinful lifestyle, I mean, all have fallen short of the glory of God, but when I gave up the sinful lifestyle that I knew I was living, then I found true freedom. And John 8:36 says, For when the Son sets you free, then you are free indeed. And so here Paul is saying in Romans chapter six, we can actually share. And this is again, as we talk about what baptism is, we are sharing in the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There was someone that did a lesson on baptism, he found a quote. I I thought it made a lot of sense that when someone passes away and it's the body, they're not cremated, at a funeral, you don't just sprinkle dirt on them. No, what happens is we bury them underground, six feet underground, and then we put the dirt over top of them because their body has been done away with. And obviously, as Christians, we believe, but but those who believe in Christ, their souls have been resurrected to be with Christ. So one of the big reasons why I decided to be baptized was because when my whole body would go underwater, the life I had in the past, the life of sin, when I came up out of it, that that past life was in the water. It stays in the water. Jesus Christ died on the cross, was put in a tomb, his whole body put in a tomb, but on the third day, by the glory of the Father, was risen and walked out of the tomb, walked out of the tomb. And so when it comes to baptism, Pastor Jeff, can we say, and this might be an initial vague maybe terminology for it, but would you say that our baptism is symbolism of the death and resurrection that we share with Jesus Christ, the death of our old life and the res and coming up as a new creation, as you were saying? Is it merely a symbolism? In brief, yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, but how you flush that out, I guess, would answer the question of whether I agree or not. Um, and what I mean by that is this is uh I look at the whole idea of Jesus dying and rising again, and then us dying. The idea is we're dying to self and rising with Christ, that we are putting Christ's righteousness upon ourselves. And that's kind of a biblical precept that we put on Christ, right? In that context, how do we do that? And that that that I think can be confusing because it's not just the idea of, you know, I'm dying to myself in and of itself. It's I'm dying to myself and I'm rising with Christ and I'm gonna hold on to Christ with all of my being, and I'm gonna put Christ on the throne of my heart. And that has to be a daily thing, not it's not, oh, I got baptized now. I'm with Christ, and I don't have any more to do with that. We need to remind ourselves daily that we are risen with Christ. But then it is what is God doing in our lives in order to conform us into the image of Christ, right? Because that that I think that's key is the idea of what does the Bible say about this reality of dying and this reality of becoming something new? And the reality is we become something new because of what Christ has done for us so that we can receive what Christ gives. Does that make sense? And then when we receive what Christ gives, he gives us his spirit to dwell within us to help us to be all that we're called to be. And it's living out of that. That that is the new creation, that's the washing away of our old self, is this idea of I can wake up today and say to myself, I'm going to walk in this new life. I don't know if that answers your question completely, but that's kind of a background to dying and rising or dying and becoming new in terms of the Bible. And there's a lot more to that, but yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So I think perhaps we could agree that someone could be put underwater and brought back up, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily a new creation in Christ, right? Correct. Yeah, correct, absolutely. Okay, yeah. So then there has to be something that kind of is working from within us to want to make that proclamation. The new creation has to be working within us. The Holy Spirit that's working in us, would you say the Holy Spirit is really is what leads us to wanting to make that proclamation in the first place?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I believe we kind of talked about that. First Corinthians, where it talks about we cannot say that Jesus is Lord without a nudging of the spirit kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00So, yes. Awesome. So that then kind of brings me back to the Old Testament for a second, okay? And before we start the podcast, you mentioned this, and and there's a really, really cool tie-in. I'm gonna read from Ezekiel 36. I'm gonna start in verse 22 here. Therefore, say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God. Now, really quick, before this, Ezekiel 30, a lot of Ezekiel, we see the judgments on Israel. Ezekiel 36, we see there is a renewal of Israel. There are blessings on Israel. Okay, so we have to understand that. We see this by God's grace and mercy. But in verse 22, therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God, I do not do this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for my holy name's sake. I will sanctify my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, says the Lord God, when I am hallowed in you before their eyes, meaning there is a reverence to my name in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Now hear these next couple verses, because they're big. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Now remember, God said before in verse 22, He's doing this for His sake, not for their sake. Now, verse 27, I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will keep my judgments and do them. So, hearing this from Ezekiel 36 with the Israelites, God said for his sake, so that people would know who he was, God would put his Holy Spirit within the people, and that when because the Holy Spirit would be in them, they would walk in their statutes. At the end of Galatians, Paul says, For those who have the Spirit, there is no law. When we have the Holy Spirit from within us, we live a righteous or you know, we're humans, but we live a righteous life. We we yearn for Christ, and again, it's that Holy Spirit that's been indwelled, that's dwelling in us, that that really is the new creation, and that leads us to want to proclaim it.
SPEAKER_01Just to be clear, though, that that is a foreshadowing of something to come in Ezekiel 36. It's not something that was that happened then, it was something that was to come in the future. I just want to be clear on that. And then with that, I also think we need to understand what Jesus say about the spirit in order for us to be a new creation. Because I I think there's confusion on that because it's like, okay, so I've accepted Jesus Christ as more Lord and Savior. I have the spirit within me, but a lot of people might say, Well, I haven't seen a change in my life yet. Why not? So, Patrick Jacob, what do you say to those people that maybe think I've done all these things, but I'm not seeing change. Why not? Maybe I've even been baptized and I'm not seeing change. Like I still have these desires that maybe do not align with the will of God. And what's going on there? And why doesn't Ezekiel 36 seem to apply to my personal situation?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great question. And probably a question that many Christians and non-believers would ask. I think in Mark chapter 10, we see this example that Jesus talks about, that wealthy farmer, right? Where he says, I've done all these good things. I've followed the commandments. I have followed your statutes. I've done all these things. So I can go to heaven, right? But Jesus said, Yeah, you've done all these things well, but you've forgotten one thing. Go and sell all that you have. And he was a wealthy man. He was very much filled with sorrow, and he walked away. And the disciples saw this, and Jesus said, This is how hard it is. It's nearly impossible for a wealthy man to make it into the kingdom of heaven. And the disciples said, Okay, well then who can make it into heaven? Jesus said, With man, it's impossible, but with God, all things are possible. We can follow his statutes, we can go to church, we can play Christian all we want. That doesn't mean that we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. I think in our culture and in our nation, a lot of us will say that we're Christians and we do follow well, and we and we'll pray and we'll maybe we'll read the Bible every now and then. But the question becomes are you giving your whole life to God? Romans chapter 12, 1 through 2, Paul says, present yourselves to God. How? As a living sacrifice. That means you are giving yourself up to Him while you are alive. That is your reasonable service. That's what Romans 12 says. That is that is worship to give yourselves up to God. I think a lot of us we will watch the football game for three hours and then we'll pray afterwards. Why don't we pray for three hours and then watch the game later before the game starts? A lot of us will go to church and we hear a biblical sermon from a pastor that that speaks the truth from the Bible, but then they don't open their Bible again for until like next Sunday, or they just let him do it. And I'm not saying that's for everyone. I do think there are people who do pray every day. I think there are people who read the word every day. And to them, I would recommend be careful with busyness. Don't let don't let busyness get in the way, get in your mind. But I'd also say be patient because God brought the Israelites when they were going against God, he exiled them. But Jeremiah 29 said that when that's the big key, when and if when they would seek his face, then he would find them. His plan is for a future. For every human being, I think everyone is created in the image of God. And I believe everyone has a destiny that God has laid out. Whether or not we follow that destiny, whether or not we are on that narrow road, that is up to us. But I will tell you that even for those believers out there who are in this spiritual dryness, maybe they were just baptized, but now all of a sudden they're in the spiritual desert or they feel these attacks coming on. God's plan for you, as it was with the Israelites, for those of us who believe in Christ, God's plan for you is a future and for hope to prosper you with Him. That's what He wants. He wants only good things. And when we think of baptism, I mean, that's one of the reasons why we do it is because we are telling him that we want to seek you with our whole self. We want to seek you with our whole lives. But I think this is where baptism can become a works. Because if you are baptized in water and you're brought up, that's amazing, that's wonderful. You you proclaimed your belief to Christ, but that doesn't mean that the rest of your life is going to be perfect, that you're gonna that you're not gonna have any spiritual attacks, that nothing bad will ever happen again. That's not what that is. I believe Jesus Christ Himself. It's a commandment that we are baptized, but Jesus Christ Himself is our firm foundation. It's not the baptism that's the foundation. We're baptized because of the firm foundation, which is Jesus Christ our Lord. That's a very relatable and very deep question. And for those that are truly living as a living sacrifice for God, I'd encourage you to keep going, to keep fighting, because as Paul says to Timothy, I think in 1 Timothy 6, 12, if I'm not mistaken, um, fight the good fight of faith, grab hold of eternal life. We have to keep fighting that good fight, stand firm because eternity is our inheritance. John 14, I'm just spewing out scriptures right now, but John 14, verse 1, where Jesus talks about I have gone to prepare a place for you. If I have not gone, then I wouldn't come back to to take you. But I have and I will come back to take you to the place I have made for you. So the promises in Jesus Christ, and we need to be willing to truly live as a living sacrifice and to trust that his voice will come again and that he's working in the background even when we don't hear him.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna take it another place, and I I love what you said, and seeking God is imperative to us finding him. And I believe Proverbs two or three, where it says, seek him like you seek wisdom like you seek treasure, or seek gold, or seek silver, like there's work involved in seeking for treasure. So there's work involved in desiring to be Christ-like. But there's a couple things that I always do whenever I am face to face with someone that wants to be baptized. The first thing I like to do is remind them what we're doing, you know, dying to self-rising with Christ. But I also think it's important that we know our identity in Christ. What does Jesus say about me and him? Because I think it's really hard to be baptized and to really catch the significance of being a new creation if you don't even know what God says about you. Like, how do you do that? And I believe Ephesians 1 and 2 are a great place to start. It's not the end place, but it's a starting place to understand your identity in Christ and what Christ says about you. That's that's a starting place. Second place we can go is John 14, John 15, John 16, John 17, because it teaches us about what the spirit desires to do in our lives. And one of the challenges that I think most people have if they're not experiencing God in a powerful way, or if they feel like they're constantly in an uphill battle with sin, is to recognize what Jesus tells us the spirit desires to do. He desires to guide you, he desires to lead you, he desires to walk with you, he desires to counsel you. And how do we receive that from him? By being in the word, by being in prayer, by being in community with other believers, by doing our devotionals sincerely, genuinely, genuinely having our heart for God, genuinely desiring God's will for us moment by moment, day by day, month by month, year by year. But I cannot stress enough the genuineness of it and the desire. Without desire, you're gonna you're gonna fall short. You have to have desire for God. But I believe you need to know your identity in Christ. You need to know what Jesus tells us about his spirit that comes and lives and dwells in our hearts, and that's in John. Then you need to know what a new life looks like. And that's Romans 8. Romans 8 goes back and forth. It talks about living in the flesh versus living in the spirit. And I don't care who you are, I don't care where you're at in your journey with God. If you go to Romans 8 and you genuinely go there and you read those scriptures, you can identify for yourself which one you're living. If you're living out of the flesh or you're living out of the spirit. And Romans 6, Romans 1 through Romans 8 kind of give you the picture of what it means to be a new creation, right? Because it talks about faith. It talks about our hope in Christ, it talks about becoming a new creation, it talks about a life of sin. It defines and gives barriers and boundaries to what life should look like in Romans 1. And then it defines what sin looks like in Romans 2 and 3. And then it goes on to talk about faith and grace and belief and trust in God, and then what it looks like to be sanctified. And these are all terms that I'm using that maybe are big terms, but the reality is if we don't have a baseline of understanding of who we are in Christ, if we don't have a baseline understanding of who the Holy Spirit is and what the Holy Spirit desires to do in your life, and that the Holy Spirit actually does give you gifts to be used to edify the body of Christ in order to go forth and evangelize the nations. Like if we don't have this understanding, it's impossible to live out a baptized life, right?
SPEAKER_00So let me, yeah, absolutely. That's powerful. So let me ask you this because this happened to me before. What do you do when someone comes up to you and they say, I want to be baptized, but not yet, because I still think I'm gonna make more mistakes. That's happened to me before. Are we are we doing a poor job as churches at helping people understand what baptism is and leading them and training them or who their identity is in Christ? What's the issue? Because I know this person is not the only person that has thought this way, they don't want to be baptized until they're done messing around and being young.
SPEAKER_01I think that's across the board. A lot of people, I think, experience this. But the question then becomes what do you understand about being a follower of Christ? Right? What is fun? Let's identify fun, let's identify what what a life in Christ looks like versus a life that's not in Christ, and let's see which life um actually is genuinely more secure, more at peace between the two. I think the church has a responsibility because I don't know if we do, I don't know if, and I don't want to blanket statement this, but I don't know if we do a great job of actually explaining and teaching who the spirit is. You know, what what does the spirit do for you? How does the spirit work? How is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit active in the life of a believer? Some of us maybe will say, Well, that's too theological or too deep for me. We gotta, I think the church has to do a better job of identifying what does it mean to be baptized? And then what are we receiving in being baptized? Because what happened when Abram left his country? What did God do? He blessed him, but did God just leave him with saying, I give you a blessing and go off on your own and do your own thing? So, what did God do with Abram, or what did God do with any of the his covenantal people, and how what he desired to do?
SPEAKER_00Well, Matthew 28, I will be with you always till the end of the age. He said that to the disciples, and that is a promise that he gave to all of the people of the covenants. He told David, I promise you, because you followed me, I will make sure there's a throne forever that will be placed at the seat of David in Israel. I will be with you always, I will never leave you nor forsake you. So be strong and courageous. He spoke to Joshua. So, yeah. I mean, God has promise. That's one of the greatest promises he's ever given, is that he will be with us for those who follow him. Those who follow him, he will be with us.
SPEAKER_01It was Abraham, right? The the promise. Abraham didn't even see the promise in his lifetime, he didn't see the fulfillment of the promise, but he was he trusted and had a belief in God and stuck with God to acknowledge that God would be faithful to bring about the promise in the end. And the problem is a lot of times we we think baptism is this thing where we go in, we do it, and then we're done, and we don't recognize the lifelong journey of it, and we don't give God time to work in our lives to transform us. We don't give God the chance to do that work so that we're not living out the new creation because we're not willing to die to self yet. We're not willing to give up um me being on the throne where Christ belongs.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And I wanted to read from James chapter two. You talk about Abraham. You know, Abraham wasn't able to see the descendants as numerous as the stars in heaven in his lifetime. But what you're saying just reminded me of this. James 2, verse 21. Was not Abraham, our father, justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, which says Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, not by faith only. Now I know this is a different context about what his active faith looked like in opposed to dead faith, but Abraham, God told Abraham to bring his son Isaac and offer him as a sacrifice, but God did not leave him alone. God did not just say, Go do this. God was with him the whole way, and before he killed his son, God said, Stop. You you've listened to me, you've shown your you've shown your faith. I mean, it was accounted to him as righteousness. Abraham did as God commanded him to do. And Exodus 3, the whole chapter is spent on Moses trying to deny what God wants for his life. He said, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this, I have all these reasons. But yet Moses was the man that God used to lead the Israelites out of Egypt, that God used through the faith that Moses had to part an ocean, to part the Red Sea to lead the Israelites through. And the disciples, again, go back to Matthew 28. I will be with you always till the very end of the age. In the book of Acts, we see the we see the power of the Holy Spirit working through the disciples to save thousands of people, again, by the power of the Holy Spirit. And so what you said, I think what you said was absolutely true too. I think more teaching and understanding of who the Holy Spirit is is a big big concept because we can talk about God, we can talk about Jesus. God is way out there, he's the creator of the universe. Jesus, he's still for us in the modern times, he's still way out there. He's a historical figure, he was the son of God, like we worship him, he's the way, the truth, and the life. But he's not on the earth anymore right now. So we have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit who lives within each of us that helps remind us again, because like you said in the Gospel of John, the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance all the teachings of Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Remember what Jesus said though, and and what you said in in what Matthew 28, I will be with you. He's not referring to the spirit of God being with them, he's referring to himself being with them. The omnipresence of God, the fact that God is all places at all times. Jesus, we think that the father is outside, distant from us. But the Bible teaches that the Father and the Son are and the Spirit are all actively engaged in the life of the believer. Yes, God is on the throne. Yes, Jesus is on his throne, but in the midst of being on the throne, they're still active participants in the life of the believer. Now, how that works, that's a mystery. But Jesus didn't say, I'll be with you distantly. He said, I will be with you till the end of the age. He's saying, I'm actively participating in your journey of faith. I'm actively pursuing you. So I just want to clarify that is we don't want to think of Jesus and the Father being this distant figure that sits on their throne and they're disengaged.
SPEAKER_00I think a lot of us do have that mindset. A lot of people have that mindset of they are way out there. But what you say is reality. And I think that also can provide us with hope, too. That God is always with us. The power of Jesus and his love is always with us. The Holy Spirit dwells within us. The fullness of God is with us always.
SPEAKER_01Just to clarify, just so that we recognize that I'm not speaking out of context from the scriptures. In John chapter 17, it says this Jesus is praying to the Father in heaven. They are not of the world, speaking of believers. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth, your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world, and for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me, I have given them, that they may be one even as we are one. I in them, and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and love them even as you loved me. So this idea of the Father being in the Son, the Son being in the Father, the Son being in us, the Father being in us, they are in us, and we are one with them. That's the picture in John 17.
SPEAKER_00It's powerful.
SPEAKER_01I do think the Holy Spirit dwells within us, but at the same time, the Trinity dwells within us is the idea. Yeah, is the idea that the scriptures are getting at. And it's in that that we can live a new creation. And I know that got a little bit off topic, but the idea is that we have to have an understanding of these things in order for us to be able to live out the reality of dying to self and rising with Christ, right? Because it's like if I if I have to die to self, then what do I do when I rise? How am I going to overcome the challenges I have in my life? And that's where it is giving up that old self and becoming this new one that identifies and grabs hold of Christ and holds on to him until we enter glory or until Jesus comes back. Like we don't let go, and we continually, each and every day, say, I'm going to give up this idea that I can do it on my own and I'm going to live out of Christ. And that's where I think the the crux comes. A lot of people have a hard time saying, I'm not willing to give up self. And that's really what it boils down to to say, I want to go have fun. It's saying I want to do my own thing for a while. I don't want to put Jesus on the throne yet. That's what you're really saying without saying it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I think that's what, like you said, a lot of people feel that way. So how can we, as not just pastors, but how can we, as fellow believers in Christ, show that Jesus is the better way? At some point, the individual has to accept that Jesus is the better way. But what can we do as the church to help them see that right now is the time to accept Jesus Christ?
SPEAKER_01And again, I'll repeat myself. I think it's honestly understanding who Christ says you are. What is your true identity in life? Do you find your identity in the world or do you find your identity in Christ? Do you desire to live a life where God is moving and active and engaging in your life, or do you desire to live a life out of yourself? And that's the question. You have to answer that question. And the reality is if you decide to live the life of Christ, you're going to see Romans 8 and what the Spirit does in your life, you're going to see that become a reality in your life. If you're going to decide that I want to live a fleshly life, you're going to see the reality of Romans 8 on the fleshly side of life be a reality in your life. Like you can identify, you can take Romans 8 and look at it and say, which one am I living? If you're honest with yourself, you can evaluate it and you can say, Oh, I get it. This is why I'm not a new creation, because I'm living out of self. I'm not allowing God to do what God wants to do. And that's why I love Ezekiel because of the fact that what does it teach? I'm going to do these things in you. The problem is you have to be open to allow him to do the things in you. And that's where the hiccup comes. Because we don't want to, we don't want to give up self in order to allow the God of heaven to do the miraculous in us.
SPEAKER_00Amen. We need to be reminded that we are made in the image of God. That understanding of knowing our identity, I think if we understood who we were and what God has in store for us, I do think that many of us would be able to become, or or what I should say, many of us would understand the reality of who we are and and the beauty behind it and would run to the water to proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord.
SPEAKER_01As I say, what do you fill that thumbprint that God put on your heart? What do you fill it with? How you answer that question will determine what life looks like. We need to understand the fruit of the spirit and what God's offering us to love as God loves us. How do we do that? We do that through experience, to experience. God's love and understand and really put our eyes on the reality of what Christ did for us on the cross. If we do that and we genuinely take a hard look at what Jesus did for us on the cross and what Jesus offers us out of that, then the answer is easy. The challenge is are you willing to do that work, to take a genuine look at the cross and really evaluate what Christ has done? And then are you willing to give up the baggage you have in your life? And then receive the gift that God gives. Receive the gift of Christ, receive the gift of the Spirit, receive the gift of the Father, receive the fruit of the Spirit, receive the gift that God offers you in order to edify the body of Christ. Receive these things, take hold of them and take hold of Jesus. That's the defining line of whether your baptism is going to reveal the reality of what baptism means, or your baptism is just going to be something that you did out of repetition.
SPEAKER_00Just visualizing staring at the cross, throwing down all the baggage at the foot of the cross, Jesus Christ died once for all, and the blood of Christ has come to cleanse us from our sins. We need to recognize that and accept that free gift of salvation that Christ has given us. If you don't mind, Jeff, I'm gonna close us out with a word of prayer. And for those of you who are listening to this, you have not been baptized yet, or you were baptized as a baby and you just really don't even know what it was about, or you didn't know what it was about. I want to pray for you too, that you will understand who you are in Christ Jesus, and that when that time comes, when you feel the Spirit leading you, that you will make that confession. So let's pray. Heavenly Father, Lord Jesus Christ, today we give you praise. Yours is the glory and the honor. God, you are worthy. Lord Jesus, you are worthy. You are the way, the truth, and the life. And Lord, we are so thankful and we we are so grateful for giving us this opportunity to record and to send out another podcast episode. Lord, it is my prayer, and I know it's Jeff's prayer too, that that the words that we said, God, are words that are glorifying to you. That Lord, they are words of understanding. And Jesus, that those who hear this, Lord, those who haven't accepted you fully as their Lord and Savior, those who who don't understand who they really are in Christ Jesus, those who haven't made that that statement or that proclamation through baptism, Lord, we just pray today, God, that you will open up their hearts and remove their heart of stone and replace it with the heart of flesh. And God, remind us that you do this for your glory so that the people around us will know that you are God. Lord, by your grace, by your mercy, by your love, and by your glory, God, you do these things. Lord, I pray that you will be with us for the rest of this week, Lord, and be with us until the next episode. And Lord, let us be reminded and take a hard look at the cross and be reminded who we are and who you are, Jesus. Thank you so much. It's in the name of Jesus Christ that we pray. Amen. All right, well, friends and family, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Learning Theology today. The focus was on baptism. This podcast is brought to you by Christ Community Church of Davis County as well as the Pulaski Mennonite Church. We are excited to be back with you again, hopefully in a couple of weeks. But until then, we hope and we truly pray that the words that were spoken today will bring glory to the Father and will bring wisdom and will bring knowledge to all who listen as well. Thank you guys for tuning in, and we will see you next time on Learning Theology, where we figure out the nature of God one scripture at a time.