SPEAKER_00 0:14

Hey everyone, welcome back to From A to Bilt with me, Bryson Rayon, and my co-host Chris James. This is episode two in our seven-part series with Pastor Martin, who's the founder and CEO at Logos Faith Development. And today we're digging into one of the most misunderstood parts of faith-based housing, which is the financing piece. Calling this episode Financing Faith, and we're breaking down how Logos is structuring privately funded affordable housing on church-owned land. We talk about things like the capital stacks, risk, their underwriting discipline, and how churches can unlock the value of their land without losing control of their mission. So if you've ever wondered whether faith-based development can be both mission-driven and financially rigorous, this conversation gets very real and very practical. And I promise you it's not horribly boring at all. So let's jump right in. So happy to be back here with you, Pastor Martin, for our seven-part series on logos faith development. Today we want to kind of pull back the curtain on what really makes these projects work from a financing perspective. I think that's a big topic of conversation right now is how do these deals come together? Everyone knows how difficult it is to do financing in an affordable world and things like that. So the discipline behind your mission, how your team's working on it, what's unique that you're doing in the industry that maybe other people aren't thinking about, and how it all ties together back to working with churches overall.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

So yeah, so jumping right in, when people hear faith-based development, they often assume donations, public subsidies. Is that a model Logos is using, or how do you guys work through those pieces?

SPEAKER_04 2:07

Yeah, I mean, so when I started in this business in development and focusing on faith-based development, focusing on uh solving the problem uh with churches regarding their underutilized or unused church land and making churches relevant and impactful and vision focused again, as opposed to just problem-focused. I didn't know about Litech and the tax credit model and public subsidies. So having come from the private sector, I assumed this had to be solved in a private sector way. I had really good role models and mentors, SDS Capital Group, big shout-out was one of them, absolutely, that were already trailblazing this area. But and the fact of the matter is, is I didn't even know that there was a way to finance these projects through tax credits, for example. So we reverse engineered a typical development deal and found the gaps and challenges as it related to trying to get to a reasonable ROI, IRR, and other fundamentals of work. Uh and what we came up with, which just followed the vision and mission of the churches we were talking to, um, was joint venture partnerships. And the top line takeaway of that is that's what made these deals work. So problem, um, these deals won't pencil when we have to acquire land and uh pay taxes. That's a really simple way.

SPEAKER_05 3:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

When uh developer A, okay, I want to leverage uh the changes in the density bonus laws at the state level and at the city level. I want to take advantage of ED1 and the permutations that came before. But I got to go buy this property. And um, the moment I buy it and transfer title, I'm gonna trigger taxes and the tax exemption is gonna go away, et cetera. So by focusing on what the problem was, we reverse engineered to the solution, and the solution is the logos model. So um when we partner with churches, and of course we're gonna talk about how this is great for churches, but here's the economics, right? When we partner with churches, uh, they contribute their land into a new joint venture entity, and there is no site acquisition, site acquisition issues taken off the table. When we partner with churches and make them a full, free and fair partner, they bring in their nonprofit, their 501c3 tax status. That takes off the issue of number one, substantial uh tax penalties when you transfer title. And then number two, um, allows us to apply for the tax welfare exemption, which then forgoes, defrays, stops, exits the other tax issues that occur down the line. Those two problems solved now turn the model, the performa, and the possibilities of the project into a reasonably returning project that you could square up with any developer in the market rate arena, stabilized by vouchers. And that is not just the secret sauce, that's what makes us nearly or more competitive as most developers building grade A, et cetera, et cetera, product in the market.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

I love it. Yeah. I also love your honesty about getting into the affordable world, getting into Litech, getting into tax credits that have the exact same experience.

SPEAKER_04 5:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Where I mean you get a four-year degree on it. Yep. Um, and I started going down that road, and I was, I mean, I was a month in, I'm like, I'm out.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

And then I just found the people that did it for a living, that this is all they do, and I would partner with them because it is so complex and so convoluted at the end of the day. So trying to figure that out. So I love you just said, I'm just gonna figure this out over here without that, and see how that works. And that drove you to what ended up being ultimately a better solution in terms of how do you develop this type of housing um in a better, faster manner. Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:00

Well, and I know we're gonna get there in your questions, which are brilliant, but and um by starting, look, um, by starting with the problem in mind and focusing on the solution, we combined that with what are the outcomes that the church is seeking, the community is seeking, the city seeking, the mayor seeking, and we're seeking, for example. And that allowed us to sort of create a really unique widget that allowed us to bring in, you know, the cooperative and allowed us to bring in HTA and allowed us to bring in this third party and that third party and turn it almost into an external, internal team that could find more cost savings. And really what we're doing is attacking a problem with the best solutions possible. So by diving into the deepest end of the pool, right, the shallow end is here is Private Family Foundation, here's $4 million. Yeah. And it's a it's a that's a great place to be swimming. It's warmer and it's less dangerous. Or um uh here's a HUD grant. These are all three million dollars, four million dollars, et cetera. Well, by diving to the deepest end of the pool, that our pencils have to be sharp enough that this has to stand up on its own in the marketplace of investors and lenders. We're playing, we're seeing it now, right? Um, meaning it's we're converting, we're getting construction loans, it's moving forward. Now we've gotten enough expertise in the toughest area with the brawlers that we are now able to go to the shallow end and add to our capital stack grants, forgivable loans, 3% interest loans, forgivable, you know, you know, grants, loans that get converted into equity. And these are from private family foundations, and these are from mission-driven investors and purpose-driven investors that are really more focused on the impact than on the return.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

So now it's a blend of public and private. Now our capital stack is a blend of public and private. So if we take a grant from the government, that's a blend of public and private. If we take a grant from a family foundation, that's private. Okay.

unknown 7:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Nice.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

That is a now that is a turbocharged model. That is a turbocharged pro forma, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

That is a highly competitive pro forma when you have returns already reaching, just for the sake of argument, guys, 12, 13%. And we input a $3 million grant that is non-recourse and not expected to be paid back. Now you have competitive returns.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Nice. And that that you kind of answered my second question leading to the third, you know, around when you're working with these churches. Um, and you know, they have these pieces of land, and it's this, you know, they've had it for years and they've they haven't known what to do with it. And you come to them and you say, We have this solution. How do you work with the church? Um, and how do you make sure it's a fair, equitable situation for them to where it really is a positive experience for them? Um, and it's helping them extend their mission for the next 20 to 100 years, whatever it is, by doing this program. That's a big question that I hear all the time of like, well, what is the church really giving us to get this? And there's always that kind of question there.

SPEAKER_04 8:57

The problem most of our churches and denominations face in the year of our Lord 2026 uh is a massive decline in membership and the attendant tithes and donations that go with that. That is a symptom of a bigger spiritual malaise. Churches are facing this enormous problem of becoming less and less relevant. When their job is, and we can get into the theology of it, but when when their job is to be a light unto the world and a disciple to nations, and to actually draw people to them to lead a better life and have a better belief system that makes them both more successful, gives them a chance of eternity in my book, um, and allows them to do good and do well. And so that is the problem. It's and it's metastasizing in the United States. What do they have amongst the many different tools and levers to turn that around? Well, the there is no better tool than their belief. Look, I mean, I'm a pastor, so bear with me.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:07

There is no better tool than their belief in Jesus Christ. There you go. And they're sitting on thousands of acres of land. There's no better tool than their belief in a in a higher power that loves them, et cetera. But the practical reality is they're sitting on millions and millions of acres of underutilized, actually just unused land. Church with parking lot, block after parking lot, block after parking block. I can't even explain the opportunity, although you're getting an idea of it. Um and so it isn't, and so this soul deficit can become a soul surplus if they convert that land into housing that that fits their vision. This is God gave this church this vision, God gave this church this mission, it's been it's been transmitted to the pastor, and he or she has has fed it to the flock, and they understand what their vision and mission is now. And a part of that is to uh clothe the naked and it's to take care of the widow, and it's to feed the hungry. That's biblical. All those can be met and matched through new housing that they're directly partnered in. So Logos provides a way forward for them to go from a spiritual deficit to a spiritual surplus. They just have to look at it with fresh eyes. Which aren't so fresh. It's thousands of years, it's been in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah. Yeah. And then also it seems like, you know, when this all started, we all went through COVID. And then that was just another nail in the coffin with the churches, right? Because now people can't go to their churches and you had years there. That's right. And then a lot of people didn't come back to the churches, right? Because they were all right, well, I can do this online now. And that was that was something that was even more difficult. And is it all housing or is it highest and best use for the church? Like, hey, this is the this is what's going to be what work best. Maybe it's not housing.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

Yeah. I think cooperative is going to help us work on that.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:03

Guys, you guys come from a massive TI uh renovations, beautification of storefronts. And I'm by, you know, and I mean by by the hundreds of projects. You're solving between, and I may call it, I don't know if it's called the General Hospital, but you're the old LA County, you're solving across an entire master plan, and you've solved beautiful art galleries in Beverly Hills. Okay. Well, all of that is churches. So there are churches right now on Colorado Boulevard in Pasadena. There are churches at Wilshire and Rodeo, three blocks from the synagogues, that absolutely should be converted into amazing live work, into high-end retail, into fabulous art galleries and cafes, uh, let alone the projects we often deal with, which is 60, 70, 80, 90 units of affordable housing. So there's this is a massive palette. It's a massive canvas to paint on. Right now, Logos has been solving in the affordable. Where we want to go with key strategic partners with the like the cooperative is you're a church and you're in uh you're on this side street, we can solve for that. You're a church and you're on Wilshire Boulevard, we can solve for that. So it won't all look like affordable housing. It'll look like what's the highest and best use for that particular location to help them kind of continue.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Realize their vision and mission.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

I mean, imagine a cafe, you know, uh, Father Greg Boyle, shout out to Father Greg Boyle, et cetera. You know, they have a training program in a bakery in East LA.

SPEAKER_05 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Well, the cafe is at Romans Bookstore here in Pasadena. That's the cafe that Father Greg Boyle's nonprofit feeds uh their pastries and stuff, and their workers are um uh uh have come out of the system, ex-prison inmates, et cetera. And that's at the Romans Bookstore right here. And so now that now imagine the number of churches where you could put that in. That's highest and best use.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

And that's kingdom service.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah, yeah. Definitely. And then financially, um, from the church side, are they investing in the deals or are they just putting up the land for these?

SPEAKER_04 14:04

Yeah. So the church contributes, um, you know, now on the practical application side of how did the model work, the church contributes their land into a new joint venture limited partnership. That contribution is so sizable and meaningful, that is in essence the contribution. Yeah. The church contributes their 501c3 nonprofit status. What does that really mean they're contributing? That means they're contributing 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100, 110 years of good work in the community that has been vouchsafed by the IRS and vouchsafed by the state, saying you guys are you guys deserve to have nonprofit status. Here's your 501c3. So those two contributions of land and then nonprofit status um it absolutely turbocharges the engine of the model and the performance and the analysis and makes them a complete and equal partner in the deal. Let alone the fact that um and this is good. There's there shouldn't be. No city council person, mayor, planning department, DWP, et cetera, et cetera, is gonna want to ignore an email or a communication or a phone call uh from a bishop or presiding elder of a pastor of a thousand-member flock of a 500 church denomination, et cetera, et cetera. These are marginalized oftentimes, don't love that word because the amount of latent power that's actually in our denominations. But let's just use it because it's a word in currency. Quote unquote marginalized churches and denominations that have been waiting to get into the game. There is no amount of uncoiled power that they have when they choose to focus and use that power to say to the powers that be, it's our time to develop now. Very difficult for the powers to be not to respond to that, especially in election year.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Well, you know, something that's interesting to me, um, putting on my private development hat is you've come up with something unique here. Um you know, we watched kind of the zoning and the laws change over the last couple of years, especially with it as it relates to buy right development with the churches. You figured out something that works. Um and most people, I will say, especially in the development world, when they find something like that, they keep it to themselves.

SPEAKER_05 16:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Right? I don't want people to know. So I will say it's amazing that you're coming on and you're just being so open about this is how we're doing it. Yeah. Because we all know everyone's gonna be like, I'm gonna do that. Yeah. I'm gonna go try and do that. Yes. So that's interesting, and there's a bigger kind of question there of I think that will happen. I think it's happening. They're gonna rush after these churches and start making promises. Yeah. So, how do churches protect themselves? Um, and how have you seen these deals go south if they're not working with a group that has done it, that has systematized it, that has great templates, that they've gone through it from an ethical standpoint to say this works for all parties. Absolutely, as opposed to just opportunistic people jumping into the game and saying, like, yeah, let's get after this. Yeah. Um, how have you seen those go south? And, you know, what are what's the words of wisdom to churches?

SPEAKER_04 17:08

Well, so the first thing I would say is uh in the year of our Lord again, 2026, we shouldn't underestimate our churches. There's ChatGPT, there's Google, there's the um the native in uh uh uh generational wisdom that exists in the church already. You know, um uh Auntie Patterson and Deacon Farley uh and brother Patterson uh um have a a wisdom and a knowledge about how humans are um that runs pretty deep. And my experience is they can, it may take a minute, but they can often, not always, suss out the impostors from uh the authentic developers and people who actually care and and give a DRN about something. The other thing I would say is this logos is typically done best after one or two developers has already approached the church. And they've actually gone far down the road almost to contracts, and their attorney has then said, uh, what was said is not in the contracts. It's a it's an okie doke, um, it's a bait and switch. The answer to your question is if I were a church, I would focus on understanding God's vision and really focus on that and getting clear on your mission, going back to basics and then forming an internal church team and then making a decision as to the results and the outcomes you want. Now, that process uh taking a break. Here I am, church, and I have two blocks of parking lots. It's unbelievable. Uh a church may go, okay, we're gonna take this to market, let alone uh the developers that have sent them postcards, those are the developers to run from. Postcards or knocked on their door. So, so uh uh what saith the Lord? This is the Lord's vision for my church. What has been our mission historically as a church? We've had one, if we go back and and go back into the record, we've actually had a mission, and it's almost always gonna be the same if they're biblical. It is gonna be to clothe the naked, it is going to be to shield and protect the widow, to make sure the widow's taken care of, and that means a lot of things. Um, and it's gonna be to feed the hungry. Okay, and then uh, well, we church, we don't have a team that's expert. Form an internal team that's looking out for the best interest of the church and believes in the pastor's uh that the pastor has a has access to a higher power that he can listen to or she can listen to. Um, and then these are the results we're seeking. The results may not be to make $212,000 and 12 cents every year. The results may be we want to convert this land and really serve those that need it the most. We want to make this amount of impact. We want to have a cafe on site with folks that used to be in the system. We may want to uh uh redesign and transform our clothing uh program, our feeding program, our shelter, et cetera. Come up with what's important as the outcoming results, and then do your homework as it relates to the developer you're talking to. There are many developers that knock on church doors and want to do church deals. Um and there are many developers that do. And some of them are excellent. Many of them provide us the access we need to those churches when we go through those doors, because we're the only developer that we know that only builds on underutilized and unused, the only one we know and builds affordable housing and housing, et cetera. So if at this tick of the clock a land partner came to us and they weren't a church or denomination, we would so far say no to building with them because we know what we're good at doing. The business that we say we're in is the real estate development business. The business we're actually in is solving problems for churches that have felt left out in the cold and that no longer are matching their vision and mission with what they were intended to do in the beginning. And when we stick to the business we're in and the business we're supposed to be in, we're the only we developer that we know that that follows this process and understands how to communicate with churches and denominations this way.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

I love it. And when you get so mission focused on there, yeah, obviously you you have to look at your underwriting and your returns in a different way. So as you've been bringing this out to market, coming full circle to talking about the finance on these deals, totally. What's the response been from lenders, investors, you know, trying to get that construction finance? Yeah. How's it been hitting the market and what's the response been?

SPEAKER_04 21:42

Since we are faith based and since there is such an element of I you know, Pastor Martin, this is a church talking meet. We've been bamboozled so many times. Forget the development. We've been bamboozed by the the paint contractor that said that they were gonna do A and it ended up being B. Mm-hmm. So that's just a paint contract, guys, let alone a 50-unit project, 100-unit project. We want to be evaluated and judged by the best developers in the field because we're faith-based. We want our model, our analysis, our third parties, our engineers, our construction managers, our project managers, our architects, our whole entire widget to be able to go up against any other mainstream developer and actually say, not only are they faith-based, uh, but they're just excellent. They won't spare a dime. They won't unearth a better process. They won't go deeper into AI. Uh uh they won't be, there's no more mature developer than Logos because they know the margin for inaccuracy is unacceptable because we serve God and we serve churches and denominations. We serve the highest purpose that I believe you can serve, which is to serve the kingdom and to serve the kingdom's ambassadors, which are churches and denominations. Our focus is on process and delivering results. It starts with our focus on the church's vision and the church's mission and the church's problems and resolving that. Um and what that means is we often say no to deals and projects. They don't just have to pencil, they have to pencil well.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:24

They have to pencil well, the investment committee has to think so. My external consultants have to think so. And uh they have to be in it for the right reasons themselves. If they can't surface for me a clear understanding of what their vision and mission is, the pencil could get 20, the project get 28% IR returns.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah, etc.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

We will walk away. It's all got to line up. It means it's a very narrowing field of projects that we'll actually work on because we have to deliver 100% of the time.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah.

unknown 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

I mean, I think you know, one thing that stands out about Logos is just the team you're assembling. I mean, not just on the design construction side, but definitely on the capital partners, lenders, advisor side. I mean, you already touched on it a bit, but yeah, can you just talk a little bit more about the caliber of people that you're looking for and how you evaluate your partners when you're trying to bring them into this deal?

SPEAKER_04 24:10

Absolutely, Chris. Well, well, let me go back because I want to answer, because the the first part of what you said to that actually helps me answer. So when we're talking to um lenders and investors, we want to, by the very nature of what we're presenting, the accuracy of our models, the accuracy of our economics and our analysis, and the third parties we're bringing to the table, the strategic partners, cooperative, et cetera. We want to have answered the un the question they haven't asked, which is the whole faith-based angle.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

And um, well, it is this performer going to stand up in the real world? And have you gotten three bids and all that? We want to, we over-answer the question of quality control and process right up front because we already know that's in the back of some investors and lenders' minds. So I just want to answer that a little bit better. Caliber of team, et cetera. So it goes back to the same thing. We're serving a higher power, and we're serving that higher power's emissaries in this world. Um, we have to have the best team possible. And it means that we have to be focused uh on not just talent, innate talent and gifts, which so many, too many people just focus on that, but also on the values and the principles that they bring to bear. Someone could be a pretty talented individual, but have great values and principles and be able to come to me at the office at 6 p.m. on any given evening and say, Pastor, it's not really penciling for the church, actually. I know we can get this thing through, but we got to go back to the drawing board, we've got to talk to the church, we've got to make things better before we present to the lenders. That is talent, gifts, capacity combined with good values and principles. So I try to hire for both. And I know you do too. Yeah. But I think that if you go behind the scenes at Logos, more often than not, we are at the end of the day led by values and principles. Here's an example. I may get very excited by a deal. And I may run with that excitement for 72 hours. I can't believe this is working out this way, et cetera, et cetera. And there will be someone on my team that will land the airplane into have we died, have we really had a conversation with them about their vision and their mission? Uh or any number of elements along that line that will have this pastor and this real estate developer walk away from the deal that the real estate bro, the real estate guy would never have walked away from. That happens regularly. That's because my vision, as excuse me, my principles and my values I think are becoming a part of the DNA of my company. And that we answer to a higher powers uh values and principles are a DNA so that even my team members and my staff can come to me and call a timeout and say, there's another way we need to look at this, or I don't think we should proceed because of this. That means it's beginning to take a life of its own based on standards over personalities. So that's what's we're trying to be led by.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Well, what I really hear you talking about is uh, you know, this other concept of just risk and how you evaluate risk. Derisking, yeah. Yeah, de-risking. And I mean normally that's a quantitative exercise, you know. We gotta de-risk the site, we gotta de-risk the drawings, you know, make it investable. But um, yeah, you're bringing this other kind of emotional, like this EQ mentality to the table. And uh, you know, that's hard sometimes. Like, what's I guess my a better question to ask is when did you see a risk that was too great to take for logos?

SPEAKER_04 27:49

When we've been approached by a land partner, and the focus has been on the individual member or members in that team personal financial needs over the needs of the entire church and denomination.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

That makes tons of sense. Um you know, I mean, we step back a minute. I mean, you talked a little bit about the kind of internal finances of the church, a pastor making only 50 grand a year, no one can survive on that income. So you got a lot of dual income priests that are out there. Um think about a church, let's say it's a 70 person, 150 person congregation. Uh financially, you're talking about basically running a small business.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

I mean, if I was to guess, I'd say you need cash inflow around 1 million, 1.25 million per year. To do it right. To do it right, to do that small size church right. Yeah. To get all of that capital from pure donations, pledges and plates every Sunday, that's that's a heavy lift. That's right. Especially when time of income inequality and you know, people's personal savings dwindling. So the question is from your perspective, I mean, do churches need to just officially get into the real estate game just in order to have passive income so they can practice their fake traditions? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

I think that when churches get back to what they were intended to be, which was to be a light unto the world and get refocused on vision and mission, uh, and refocus on outcomes, the means find themselves. You know that, guys. You do this all the time in project management and development. Look, when you've slept a full night and your state is better, you start to see pro solutions more than problems. I'm answering your question. Our churches are they feel like their back is against the wall and they've lost so much. My response is you've already lost so much. Your back is already against the wall. Go find your quiet prayer closet and go back to the Lord and ask him to remind you what the intention and purpose was in the beginning. And go get some spiritual rest. Church that's only bringing in $200,000 a year and you really need a million to make it work. Go actually and do the counterintuitive thing and go back to the book of Acts basics of what church was intended to be, and you're gonna find the solutions and the way out of no way. The God already gave it to you. You're sitting on acres of land, and here's the answer: you're sitting on acres of land, you're all debating on what to do about it. And in the meantime, there is a way to create new revenue streams and income by converting it into housing or highest and best use into an art gallery. I'm so moving in this direction of how do we solve for a multiplicity of different kinds of real estate types that churches own. Um, and then stay true to your vision and mission. Um, it can't get worse, it can get worse. Everything can get worse. It's pretty bad. And the further you go from a focus on your vision and mission, the sooner your church doors are going to close. When you get rooted in mission and vision again, you have a powerful message that you can bring back to the street, to investors, to lenders, to developers, to the city. You don't get what you don't ask for. Guys, what we've found is one of our one of our churches that was truly on the ropes, uh, when we really dug deep into vision and mission and what their intention was and really held their hand through that visioning process, is when we realized we could go to the city and we could go to the state and we could start asking for low interest loans and these kind of different grants. So I'll just say that that church has become now on paper because of the amount of grants and funding we've got through foundations, is now the highest, it has the chance of having the highest returns. And it was considered, quote unquote, the dog in our pipeline. Without getting into details, that's because they refocused on their vision and mission and got some spiritual sleep and then started calling me and said, you know, we could call the mayor. You know, there's this, there's this group that we forgot we had talked to four years ago. We've just been so focused on problems that we forgot about all the people we know that could help us. That church led the fundraising effort for logos, and they were truly on the ropes. So what I would testify is um no matter how bad it is, when you go back to your main purpose, your standards, your visions, your principles, your morals, that oftentimes you'll move away from solution problems to solutions. And those solutions include funding and development solutions.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Is that the thesis of logos? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

Logos' thesis is that if we do one thing right, which is uh be in the business of helping churches be all they can be through real estate development, um, that the cards will kind of take care of themselves and that we'll have an opportunity to do good and to do well and to do something that most people have walked away from, which is solving real estate problems in the faith-based arena. And since most people have walked away from it, churches most of the time get the B players and the C players. We don't want to just be an A player, we want to be the A plus knee plus ultra real estate developer for churches and denominations.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

See, I think what I find so interesting about this is that uh, you know, every real estate developer knows the term, the thesis, the project thesis. Yeah. Um, the main idea behind the project that's going to drive the growth. Yeah. And I think what I'm hearing, which is so interesting, is that Logos isn't necessarily always the group that is designing and developing the thesis itself. You're asking the churches to do it first and coming in and supporting them. And so that's just a different way of going about the process. I mean, it's community engagement, but it's something a lot more.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

It's more, you're absolutely right. Um, we're asking the churches to do it with us. And there have been times where we've felt that tiredness and that weight. Like, how are we gonna get this through? And we brought that problem, that question back to the churches, who are, by the way, our full, free, and fair partner in the deals. The deals, right? And so there's no better person to bring your exhaustion or tiredness or your your lack of being able to get through something than a good pastor. And here it is when we allow our church partners to be pastoral and shepherds and to fulfill their mission with us, we have been able to move mountains, guys. Meaning, and you know, imperfectly, but we're getting better every month when we treat them as full partners. They come up with solutions and ways forward uh that are sometimes astounding. And practically speaking, I'm talking about the capital stack, guys. I'm talking about we need $2 million and we'll at least be able to build this, but with $3 million, this thing flies. It's stellar returns. Okay, talk to the VA. I know Doug Pierce over here, and I know this guy over here. Why didn't you tell us that six months ago, et cetera? So, well, you have got so many of your problems already. Yeah, but we love to serve. We're pastors and truly making ways out of no way. In the year 2026, we're gonna get even more catalytic and um focused on having better conversations and asking better conver questions of our pastors or of our of our land partners, because so many times they solve the problem for us and with us.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

The synergy is so great here. That's my next question. We're in flow.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

We're in flow.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Uh so if a if a pastor is listening right now, um is asking themselves, like, okay, could this work for my church? Yeah, um, what are the two to three kind of things you know you would counsel them to look for? You would ask you the questions you would ask them initially to consider for themselves.

SPEAKER_04 35:42

So programmatically, right, or process focused, um, it would be for them, we're talking to a pastor, uh, to go to your prayer closet and go back to first principles and have the Lord remind you why you got into this business in the first place. And that's not the development business, that's in the shepherding business. Um, and then to ratify what you think you're hearing with your church and to confirm with your church uh your vision and mission, and then to form a core team internally. And then I would say the fourth element is to decide upon the outcome you want first before you talk to developers, before you come to logos, before you reach out to the city. Find out, well, we don't know what outcomes we want. You do. It's do a little research, and it can be as simple as well, we actually um want to serve vets in general, and we want to reignite our feeding ministry. Okay, well, we can go from there. Backstopping that um would be past is prologue to the present and the future. Really research um what your church did 30 or 40 or 50 years ago in what you would call your heyday. Almost all of it is there. And what you've done in the past is probably DNA for what you can do again in the present and the future. And then behind that, you know more, Pastor, you know more people than you think you do. Your church members know more people than they think they do. We are coming to the radical realization at Logos Development that almost all of the solutions to church development are in the hands of the churches themselves. Almost all of it. We backstop it with um a focus on um uh uh being able to provide the guarantees, the financial guarantees, and sign the loan docs and provide the expertise. So we provide the guarantees and we provide the expertise. But much of the rest of it can be um addressed through vision, mission, unity, and what is it you're seeking to do and what did you do before that worked really well? And then reach out to Logos.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Nice. Love it. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Um, one more question around fine and the finance piece, uh, and we'll call this, you know, maybe a public service.

SPEAKER_04 37:56

And I'm happy to talk about the capital stack. I don't support.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

There it is. More going like public service announcements related to you know, financing is hard. I mean, just for standard deals um with you know, savvy developers that are just trying to get underwriting to work. With what you're working on and the product types that you've seen out there from investors, from lenders, from banks, um, is there enough out there? Is there a message you want to put out there to the larger institutions, whether it's the the Chase banks of the world or the or the bigger financial institutions that say, hey, you know, we need help in this area, whether it's impact financing? Um, we both work with uh Adam Miller and Better Angel. Yeah, totally. He's coming up with a really unique product type that is focused on providing great financing for these types of products. But he's really one of the first I've seen out there. So what is it that the market needs to kind of know and say, hey, we need more of this in the market right now if we want to see this mission continue to you know grow over the US over the next five years?

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Work with a developer that doesn't have to purchase any land and can bring a nonprofit status in to forgo all the tax issues.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Yeah, deal. Done.

SPEAKER_04 39:08

As easy as it sounds and as difficult as it actually is, that means you need to work with a developer that has got a pipeline of institutions, nonprofit institutions that already trust you and want to uh put their land, contribute their land, and contribute really platinum-level status, a 501c3 from a church. That means they've been doing filings right. That means a lot of things behind that, right? So, you know, uh my message to the capital markets is we are as good as any developer. Our model stands up like any of the other guys and gals you're talking to. But we allow you to serve angels and to uh actually be able to work or play in a sandbox that is so vision and mission enriched, um institution, chase, whomever it is, um, when you first opened that impact office and you first got excited about impact, we're the whole ball game. We're the communities already bought in by the time we strike a deal with the church. Because if one or two or three hundred members of that church have voted almost unanimously or totally unanimously to do this project, that means an entire community is spoken. So then what I would say is whereas razor sharp, but if you want that edge, if you want that impact edge, uh it's resolve the tax issue uh and don't pay for the land. And that's that's that's the that's the core element of our of our model.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Uh well, I think that leads to probably one of my final questions, which is do you think this is something that could scale nationally?

SPEAKER_04 40:53

All developments local. Um and all the all developments local and all good development uh has most of similar elements. And I may get the name wrong, but I'm trying to name a couple of organizations we both know and love, for example. So in principle, prime store, in principle related, is national, but they have local offices dealing with local ordinances and local permitting processes and local politics and local community engagement and needs. Um, I think that what Logos is doing can be scaled smartly if we remember that all real estate problems are solved locally. Um, what we are trying to do is create the technology carefully, actually through EOS planning. I don't know if that I've just dropped but but but the cooperative is helping us to think about business better um by engaging in a business solution strategy platform called EOS, may not be describing it very well, um, that allows us to surface our talents and think about growth and scaling without losing any focus. What I would say is, how do we use AI going forward and how do we use tech knowledge going forward, not as this panacea, but in a really well-thought-out way to scale? That may provide the solution to being able to scale nationally. Now, what does that mean for logos? Well, we are in Portland. Um, we are in California, um, we are in California, we are in Colorado, we're almost regionally, but for me right now to be truly regional and then one day national, I've got to get the next four projects right here in LA. Oh, you've just you've just said you just walked away from a national solution. No, no. For today, I'm gonna get the next four projects right in LA. We're gonna resolve in Portland, we're gonna resolve in Colorado, and then we're gonna leverage technology and leverage AI to provide a national solution. Well, aren't you worried about all the competition? Um except for the federal government, I mean, this is sort of like apocryphal, but except for the federal government, I don't know any larger landowner than churches and denominations. There could be 30 logoses. I'm more worried about us sticking to vision and mission and remembering why we got into this and why we're doing this and hugging and holding our churches closely to us and empowering them. The rest of it will 100% take care of itself, which includes one of my goals, which is to be one of the largest, capable, able developers that you can be, guys. We're gonna do it by focusing on vision and mission, focusing on God and really focusing on helping the church realize solutions to their problems and the results that they're seeking.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

I love it. You want to bring us home? Yeah, I mean, very exciting. And I think you know, you have a model that scales nationally without a doubt. And you're taking all the right steps to do it. And just the fact that you have said, We're gonna take a breath and make sure we execute locally is just an indicator that you are gonna be successful scaling nationally. That's the right way to go about it. And you already have that mentality of let's lock it down here and make sure that when we do go out to the market, that's the right way to do it. And then again, like you said before, it's unlimited pipeline across the US, which is shocking across the board for any type of developer or finance group or anything. So very exciting to see where you're going to take it.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

And we'll bring some of my development team on board as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Ryan potentially and the rest of the team. And we're going to talk about hey, how are you executing boots on the ground? Yeah. I know people are fascinated by that, so we'll get into the nitty-gritty. And can't wait to have you back.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

Well, look, I mean, let me again plug away. So I mean, my hope is that becomes a logos cooperative conversation. Because it is because the reality of our boots on the ground right now, you know, our infantry and our cavalry, right, and our tanks, you know, you know, we may be, you know, let's just call logos the cavalry, right? Which is a pretty like fun place to be. You're on a horse with lots of cool equipment and stuff, but a part of our infantry, uh, infantry uh and a part of our tank brigades are the cooperative. Yeah. And all the other third parties you bring. So that's a we're solving this widget together. By the way, what's the message there? Um, we will spend on excellence. Uh okay, 17% return goes to a 15% return. Yeah, but it goes to a 100% executable project. And by the way, the return goes back to 18 or 19% because there's cost savings founds and other anomalies we didn't see. So we're we're we are long-term players. Um we can't be midterm or short term, we're really long-term players. And so I'm excited to have that logos cooperative conversation.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

All right. Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah, appreciate you. Appreciate you. Yeah, thank you so much. Totally. This is great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:54

Thank you.