Welcome to the Trevor Buck Podcast, episode 65. And welcome Bert with Arrow Timber Framing. Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_00Oh, my pleasure, John. I was good.
SPEAKER_01And uh one thing I want to ask you, this is a really neat story. Tell us about your recent trip to Georgia.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was that was fun. It also didn't come free, like anything we do in life. We want a mixture of if it's all too easy, it's boring, right? And so shipping timbers, they loaded them up on a semi here, and very careful through the checklist, and even sent down some extra beams in case there's a oh-fiddle moment, have some options. Yep. And uh yeah, went went down there, the that beam shipped down, and I talked to the framers ahead of time. The owner was being his own general. He had some coaching help from a general contractor there in northern Georgia. But so it was really a lot of phone communication from the very get-go, even with the framer. And so then we eventually made it to the job site. And it was pretty cool. I mean, it's different culture, and you would think that the South would be super laid back, but I happen to get a high energy framing crew. This uh I I'm no I'm I'm not any slouch when it comes to working and energy, but this guy had me beat by a long shot. He was he was really an energetic guy and just worked like crazy and didn't supervise his crew as much and just created a a wake you couldn't help but get pulled into.
SPEAKER_01That's great. And this project is interesting how this uh individual found you on YouTube, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Okay, and so that was the other piece of it. So the framing crew was great. Uh sometimes if I go and do an install, like as a consultant like this, and work with the framing crew, well, sometimes it goes swimmingly well, other times not. And it kind of depends on a mix of a lot of things. The biggest ingredient being the the boss or the lead framer, if he's you know managing rentals or bidding jobs, trying to work at the same time, that doesn't go so well.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But if he's there hands-on, like in this case, I would get something started and then he would swoop in with his guy, and then we would move to the next one and he'd finish it up.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So it went really well. And then as far as the the owner found us on YouTube, and they had a plan that was really a great start. And we ended up kind of meeting in the mind, just really good chemistry. And then so we took over, built a 3D model, changed the floor plan some and just kind of did our normal thing with it. That um where we reimagined the plan and there's kind of a transformation. And so that went on and then eventually produced blueprints. And then then what was really cool was that we worked together and slept together, well not in the same bedroom, but sure. But so it was and so it was like if if I could get work for those kind of people all the time that people I'd love to camp with, or have a road trip with. Yeah, yeah. And that's we generally hit close to that mark. Yep. We're pretty lucky that way.
SPEAKER_01And this was a uh a vacation home or a primary home?
SPEAKER_00Vacation home that was gonna also be an Airbnb.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And the design of this uh project, I want you to explain, would you call this was a a hybrid timber framing design?
SPEAKER_00Yes. In fact, Mark had originally looked at a full timber frame.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So tell us people listening the difference a full timber frame home versus now I'm learning about this hybrid timber frame home.
SPEAKER_00Oh, sure. So a full timber frame frame, and if you want to be a purist, doesn't have any metal connectors, it's all mortis and ten and joinery. And the whole frame, there's posts in every corner, and the whole stands alone, and then you apply some sort of skin to keep the wind and rain and sun out. And that's a full timber frame. And hybrid timber framing kind of takes the look and the charm of building of bygone days, and it just applies it to practical building today without spending an arm and a leg or investing, you know, a ton of money. And so you get to decide what how much you want to invest, where you want to put it, and it is actually much hybrid timber framing is much more flexible to create wooden artistry and beauty in many different styles. If you're going with a full timber frame, you kind of are a little bit in a straitjacket, just like a log cabin. You you get too complex and it looks like crap, and uh, and then of course there's the expense. Right.
SPEAKER_01And I'm glad you're talking about this because part of the reason that we uh wanted to uh visit with you today is we have a book. And this book can help people with some of these decisions, these different uh for one, sizes, budget. Tell us about the book that you've been working on. This is really neat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's kind of was a zany idea when it took off and there was resistance getting started. That but it so most of you have uh maybe not if you're this young, but most people have read a choose your own adventure story, right? If you choose the sword and turn to page 23 or whatever, right? I love it. So this is a choose your own adventure home plan book. And there's only three choices. And they're very simple in nature, but if you were actually gonna make these choices and build follow these choices, they would be hard choices to make because there's some big trade-offs.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But when and so this whole chapter is 150 pages, and there's a ton of pictures, and you get different styles, and the style is one of your choices, the third choice.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And uh it's available online, it's a free flip book. And uh it's it's really a really a good thing to do if you're thinking about building, because uh if you can truly do what the chapter encourages, which is to say no with confidence, that means figuring and in order to say no with confidence, you have to identify what you're saying no to, then you have to shed a tear or two, maybe hold a funeral. And then once you've done that and you're okay with saying no, you can move forward and you're not being pulled in many directions.
SPEAKER_01And and I read in the book there's a challenge, a challenge with a friend. So you give a trusted friend a hundred dollar bill.
SPEAKER_00Well, if if you have deep pockets, you might have to add a zero or two.
SPEAKER_01Well, tell us about this, because that's neat. I really like how you broke that down.
SPEAKER_00So the idea is to get some skin in the game, and generally you can do that with money. You want it you want the amount to pinch, but not not to pinch so bad that if you discover something later down the road that you that would that it would influence your decision.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So you would make these three choices, and uh your friend would have a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars or whatever it be or ten dollars, but enough to where when you're making these decisions before you go through the chapter, you would kind of set this up. Okay. And then when you're making these decisions, there's a little bit of like a consequence to rather than just going through this as an exploratory deal, there's consequences to your decisions, and that will cast your mind into the future.
SPEAKER_01Right. And these three choices in the book are what?
SPEAKER_00Do you want me to spill the beans?
SPEAKER_01Yes. You do. No, no, but but you're only at chapter two, right?
SPEAKER_00This is chapter all in chapter one.
SPEAKER_01All in chapter one. Okay. So tell it, okay. So no, don't don't spill it, because it's coming. We've got to keep people on their uh on their toes waiting.
SPEAKER_00So these with these three choices, then, if you were to go through this, say it was just a hundred bucks that I'm building, and I say, John, I'm gonna make choices here through this chapter, and I want to get some real value out of it. So I'm gonna give you a hundred bucks, and then when I eventually build my home, if I am consistent with these three choices, then I get a hundred bucks back. That's awesome. If I'm inconsistent, then you get a hundred bucks. Yep, yep. And then that would just give a little pinch as I'm making the decisions and put more more emphasis on how I'm thinking about things, and it it really shines a light into what's really important. And and if you're talking a you know, $500,000, a million, two million dollar build, you know, a thousand bucks wouldn't be wouldn't be crazy to give your friend. Right.
SPEAKER_01And how this uh so just so people listening know, this is a digital flipbook. Yes. And it it's really well done. It's interactive. You flip the pages, but how do people get access to this flip book?
SPEAKER_00Aerotimber.com. There's a pop-up menu, and there's probably something at the bottom of the footer as well, or in one of the pop-down menus.
SPEAKER_01But and we'll make sure to put a link uh in the show notes when this is published. So and one thing I want to talk to you about is uh you've you've published other books, hard hard covers, and I love them, they're beautiful, but there's a special uh meaning with books with Arrow Timber. Tell us about the first how you got into timber framing.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, so it does it did kind of start with books, in that I was a framing contractor, this was in 2002, and a client asked me to do some timber framing, just a little porch rift supported by some coral brackets, and explained to me what it was, and I said, hmm, interesting. I said, Let me think about that. And so that night I went down to the library and found some books on it, kind of fell in love with it. So those those books propelled me to this kind of adventure, if you will, or great way to make a living. I've enjoyed it. Yep. And a lot of people have joined it and helped, and it's just been good. And so to help people further on what they want to do and getting the right look and feel and being satisfied with their decisions, that's just kind of a natural pay forward.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, and I know, I and I people really enjoy your books. I see them on people's coffee tables. Um, one thing that when I was looking through the book, it was talking about some of these different styles. And and one of the styles was a word that I wasn't familiar with. I've I've looked in this a little bit, I've seen rustic and modern and craftsman, but there was one style called transitional. And that was that was a little bit of a new one.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So the first book has seven timber styles laid out as they apply to different architecture. And for this choose your own adventure, had we tried to fulfill that, the chapter would have been a thousand pages long. Right. Because East Choice magnifies in in this in this book here, this choose your own choose your own adventure floor plan of this chapter, the little book of hybrid timber framing. Um there's twenty-seven places to land. Three times three times three, right? Mm-hmm. And that was challenging enough. Right. So what we did with the transitional, okay, that is the middle ground. Okay. So you've got rustic and modern on the ends, and then transitional captures everything in between. So in the original book, that would be craftsman, classic, even coastal, traditional, uh, and European.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I like that. Okay, that's that I'm happy you shared that. And in the first chapter, it talked about um size. So it's almost you have three choices again. Three choices. Small, medium, large.
SPEAKER_00Yep, and so you make the choice. And before you make the choice, there's a little bit of like coaching information that tells you what you're gonna be saying no to, just keeping on that beat. Yep. And if you've got a thousand bucks on the line, you'll pay attention and you'll really think about this. Right. So you won't breeze, you could breeze through this chapter in five minutes, have your choices done, boom. Right. There just ain't a lot there if you're moving fast. Right. If you're thinking about it and there is consequences, you're gonna really get some insight. Right. And uh so I'd encourage that. If anyone's got kind of a fun bone in their body and wants to get some real benefit out of having some fun, this is the way to do it.
SPEAKER_01And I want to ask you something. Um, I think I've been lucky enough to work with Arrow Timber on my house, and I'm really happy. I it wasn't that I put a whole bunch of uh effort into educating myself before, but my house is a one-level plan. And many people that come visit there they say, Oh, we want a one-level plan. And but I I didn't choose it because I had some you know big big knowledge or anything. It was it was all I needed. Um, but when people are building a home, one level versus two level, what what is how does that impact one any type of uh timber framing elements and two costs, construction cost? Is it less expensive to go up versus stand one level?
SPEAKER_00Good question. So this this choice is actually number choice number two. Okay. The first choice in the book, in this timber homebook, is the size, big, medium, small. Okay, and then the next one is one level uh basement, main level of the basement, or multi-level as as we talk about it. And in the book we touch lightly on the trade-offs, cost being one of them. In as far as square footage, it's a little bit more expensive because the roof is big for just a single level. For for just a single level. The roof gets pretty expansive and there's a lot of work in the roof. Okay. It it isn't it's not huge. I mean it's but there is more. And then you and then there is the other part of it, the reason you see two two stories is you can get uh more square footage on a smaller lot. So like in if you're looking at a rural property, you know, you're you're fine. I mean the cost isn't much more, but if you start talking subdivisions and in in city dwelling, urban dwelling, you're jacking the price more because of the cost of the ground.
SPEAKER_01And I'm not at that age yet, but I I've told people uh with my house being completely one level, there's no transitions. Um it if I stay there till I'm you know old and in a walker or wheelchair, it's it's really ADA compatible. Or someday if I had to uh move on for some reason, I think there's uh um people out there that might be aging that that there's no steps. Yep. Yep, so that's I I I really like that.
SPEAKER_00And I really like your polished concrete floor if you're doing a one-level that's and maybe with some floor heat. Right. That's really a nice, yeah, nice look. A little bit hard, but you can put rugs down for absolutely places.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I'm I'm really excited to uh see how this all turns out. It's getting close. It's been uh been a lot of work and stressful, but it's gonna be worth it. Um what else do we got here? Um, how about so we have people listening to this um all over the world, and you go through a lot of timber, and those are all sourced locally here in the northwest?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Yep. And those are fur?
SPEAKER_00For the most part, fur. Okay. We got some sequoia, cedar, oak. In general, fur is it's a prime wood and it's shipped all around the world and prized in other locations. Okay. That's great. And then one other thing you had mentioned two-story versus as far as timber framing and and how that applies to different styles, whether it's a a basement, you know, one level or or multi-level. And for the classic timber frame look, like a full timber frame or even getting that vibe, a two-story is gonna be is going to be the closest thing to to get.
SPEAKER_01Okay. To give you that over. That look, yeah. Yeah, sure, sure. That that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yep, and then the cost, uh, chapter 15 in our original book really tells you, shines a light on how you control the cost, or the owner controls the cost. And it it's just a matter of deciding what you want to spend and the look you want and and and trying different roads to get there. And there's there's fifteen different examples of a room that is the same size with the same wall height with the same roof slope. So none of that changes, and drastically different looks given with different timber frame ideas at different price points. And so if you combine that with what you can do with moving walls and changing heights and this and that, you know, there's a lot of creativity to can be had. And speaking of creativity, I had a funny little experience years ago. I had been three or four years into heavy into the timber frame, and I was designing, drawing 3D by hand and and whatnot. And I was starting to get a feel for different styles and different things, and I started to feel like I was gonna run out of ideas here pretty quick, because you kind of hit some of the same things repeating whatnot. And uh one Sunday I was sitting in church and a young kid walked by me and the buckled jeans or whatever with all the different stitching, and he walked by me and I blinked and I thought, blue jeans, and there's new ideas coming out of blue jeans, so I don't think I have a problem.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love that. That's a great story. And uh, I want you to um people we talk about timber framing, I I'm learning a little bit out, but when you have a true uh timber frame home or elements, um there is uh these are uh these beams can uh they can sap, they can uh what do you say, pitch or they can make uh air, they can creak or they make some noise?
SPEAKER_00Make a little noise drying. They uh and and it can sap can come out of the wood. Yep. And that's with fresh on timbers or green timbers. Uh kiln drying will reduce a little bit of that. But it's it's part of most people would choose fresh on or green because it just gives you so much more, you get bigger sizes. If you kiln dry it, the sizes start losing. Okay. When you're up to 16 inches, you're getting a piece of wood that's actually an inch smaller. Okay. And then the kiln drying as it's affordable still really doesn't do a whole ton for the shrinkage.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00A little bit of the sap.
SPEAKER_01Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_00But the shrinkage it doesn't address much.
SPEAKER_01And I know last summer when I went up to that tour up there in Olympia, that uh that homeowner, he was pretty proud of his beams that were sapping. He said, This is real.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You don't get that when you buy a laminated or a manufactured beam, but no, he was he was pretty proud of his uh timbers that were sapping.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That was that was a neat story. Yeah, he's a great, great, great couple to work for too.
SPEAKER_01And he had um quite the uh outdoor outdoor pav what would you call the outdoor area? I mean it was really neat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was a pavilion. He had a uh rather than a fireplace, he had the the fire pit with an actual fire, and then also the the draft, the the vent that stood high enough to let you see through it, and a whole eating area, you know, just and he's a professional, they they cater meals. Yep. His pref his specialty is cedar cedar plank salmon. Yep. Delicious. That was very good. It was some good eating up there. Uh but so he's got a whole set up there for entertaining.
SPEAKER_01And one thing about people that are interested in building outdoor areas or uh pergolas is you don't like to see them uncovered, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, in fact, we are looking at different options for creating with for pergolas and things that are gonna be visible outdoors, it's just take the same process we do in designing timbers and do that with either concrete that is stained or metal or even vinyl, something that is just impervious, because especially in the northwest, we're we're in a temperate jungle here. Right. And it it just doesn't go. Montana, places in Alaska, Arizona, dry places. Okay. You can get yeah, you don't even need pressure-treated wood on concrete half the time, but but here it's right.
SPEAKER_01So um I want to ask you uh when is chapter three coming out?
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's a good point. So this book that's online now with the home flop floor plan is being released chapter by chapter. Okay. So chapter two is up. Yep. Chapter three, we were just talking about it this morning, and we want the whole book done by the mid August. Maybe the end of August. And Taylor was saying, okay, well, we've still got and I said, don't talk like that.
SPEAKER_01And the and there's a lot of work, and these are they're very thought out in these different styles. And you even have uh I suppose some uh fictional names for some of the people that in the book.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01But one one that really caught my eye is I want you to talk about the the Poindexter. That was that's quite the tell us about that plan or that concept.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So in with each, if you were to read this chapter and go through it, you're gonna land on a on two full spreads that talk about where you get to see the floor plan, you get to see it from a high level with color-coded areas, public, private, and outdoor living, that sort of thing. And there's also a little a story, a fictional story, that uh gives you a little look into the type of personality of someone who might like a house like this. And so for Poindexter, he's modeled after a brilliant genius that maybe's a little bit oh out of touch maybe with how he relates in the world, but is doing the world a great bit of good with his genius and and it's told through the eyes of his of his butler or his that that does a lot of duties for him and helps him arrange the house. And it is very short and condensed, but you get a feel for it. Yep, I really like it. And so the story came before the house on that one. Okay, and then we then we crafted the single level modern after somebody who is brilliant, eccentric. And uh I guess I'll say this one even has a observatory for looking at stars. Absolutely. And uh and then we it was quite a quite a road to to get the design. We reached out to other people and collaborated and eventually pulled something together. We did want to some of our first examples were so far away from what we naturally think of a home where you don't know if it's a museum or a space center or and so we pulled that back, just like a lot of creative processes, you kind of go too far and pull it back. But it's really got a lot to like. Yep, yep. And I hope I hope we actually build it someday.
SPEAKER_01I do too. That's why I wanted to mention it on this uh podcast with somebody out there. Even if you're living in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, you could we'll build you the Poindexter. Yep. Yep. Um, so going forward, uh, you had mentioned uh so some people might not know. So typically you're working with a general contractor. You're working with the architect, you're doing a design, you're coming up with a plan for your timbers, but for the most part, these are being installed by a general contractor. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00It varies.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Tell us about how that works.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, in fact, we've recently developed what we call our offer stack or things ways we can help people. And this is coming from nature uh necessity, mother of invention thing, where people come through our doors and maybe they love what we do, they want what we do, but they're just on a different economic rung. So we figured out ways to water down our service, but still give a big chunk of the essence of what we do. And so there's there's different points there, and then we've also moved up for the right people. We'll get into the building as well, and we've already got solid into the design. Okay. Just like you mentioned, John. Yep. Taylor did the lifting on your house and worked with you and but really skilled.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and one thing I want to share, because I'm a very poor person, I don't have a vision. You know, Bert's got a vision, he can see what something's gonna look like. But arrow timber, uh so you start with a floor plan, but then there's there's 3D models. And you could almost, I mean, you could see uh conceptual what a room could possibly look like. You could see it was really, really helpful for me through the process dealing with different subs, and they'd ask me questions, I would say just I want it to look like it shows in the pictures. And for the most part, it's it's been that way, and that's been really, really helpful.
SPEAKER_00To your point on the floor plan, starting with the floor plan, uh that was a lot of fun, and that went well. And one of the things that people will find that's different about us as designers, maybe you might call it our superpower or claim to fame or whatever, but is ability to visualize and design roofs they capture a certain look and feel and are buildable. So much of the time we'll see plans that come through that have kind of like a auto feel type of roof designed. And if you want a challenge, you can find John's home that it looks totally different. It does not look the same, it's got a different vibe. And that was simply by revisualizing the roof.
SPEAKER_01Yep. And you know what's interesting is my uncle, who owned a roofing company for many years, when he looked at the floor plan, or the yeah, the floor plan, he said that that roof was a roofer's dream. He said it was four squares, low pitch. He goes, any roof would want to roof that. So that was pretty neat to hear.
SPEAKER_00And that's kind of a balance with design, is you're looking for the right look and feel, and then you're always keeping an eye on where you can make this practical, save some cost, all that. Yep.
SPEAKER_01Um, what do you got for future plans for aero timber frame? You kind of mentioned around maybe doing a little bit of generaling that you're offering. Yep. What uh what else do you uh foresee aero timber to get into? More commercial stuff?
SPEAKER_00Possibly this we've really gotten we we've broken away from the one-trick pony as we used to call it. We would just take plans and design timbers and do that. Okay. And and it it ended up that because of our passion for design and making things fit, our feelers and and we were working in many different areas, so just bringing that under one roof or or the possibility for the right people that where the alignment is there, it just really makes a lot of sense. And uh I see that expanding. I s we have a great team now, I see the team expanding, and uh growth in the future is really going good.
SPEAKER_01You've got a great team here and a great culture. Everyone seems to be really thankful that they're working here. And one thing that I've noticed out in the shop, um, if you're uh somebody like me who's not that familiar with all these different terms and wood, but uh this hand hewn. You do some beams, you you almost by hand alter they're they're not smooth, they almost have little, what'd you say, cups?
SPEAKER_00It's it's a that's a it's a machine, it's not hand, but it that the machine is still held by hand. Okay. It it mimics what if you were to take a beam and chop it out of a log with an axe and it adds what it might look like. That is neat. It's a reasonable fact, a reasonable fact simply. If if somebody wants the real thing and we have done we have done where we've antiqued beams and made them look handjobs, it's not for the faint of heart. It's really hard to try not to be just uh so predictable and consistent and and it's a uh it's job.
SPEAKER_01Have you seen the ones where they uh what's it where they burn them? Mm-hmm. Well d do they burn them and then sand like what's what's that process like?
SPEAKER_00The the burning is a th throwback from days days gone by where that was the best way to weatherize them or to to get some sort of preservative.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And so just burn the burn the surface and then done.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And if we've had uh we've had people do that before, and the best way to do that then is to burn it but then then hit it with some sort of some sort of protective coating so you're not getting dust, you know, that soot. Okay.
SPEAKER_01And I know I want you to mention this because we like to collaborate on the podcast, but you're what are pretty fond of uh the uh stains you use. Is it PD PDX Pro? It's UV Pro?
SPEAKER_00UV Pro, I I just remember Timber Pro. Okay. That's they're made made in the Northwest for the Northwest. Yep. And really uh really a fine product. It's not toxic, it doesn't smell bad. You know, some products you get, you just like, whew, want to get a mask on. Right. And then this is penetrating penetrating seeders, so you just add more coats over time, you don't have to strip it away. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01That's and for people that have timber homes, do they need to stain their interior beams as well as their exterior ones regularly?
SPEAKER_00Or interior beams are pretty much one and done. Okay. You want to get at least two coats because that's where you get your color.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00But then as far as the exterior, anything seeing the rain or the sun, that's gonna want every three years, I think, is really conservative. You'd be on top of it. Some some of our past clients have just done it every year. Okay. And then we just we're seeing the sun and the rain. Yep. And then it just kind of looks new all the time.
SPEAKER_01Anything else you got? No. Words of advice?
SPEAKER_00Uh no, this has been really good for as the far as time with you and appreciate it. Appreciate it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and just so listeners note, Burr Spinks uh speaks fluent Finn. And we have listeners on Finn. There you go. Say something to our our Finnish friends. Thank you. Okay. Okay, thank you.