Conduct(ing) in Perfect Harmony. Lessons from the Joyful Conductor.

Do you ever feel like the perfect hearing plays out like a beautiful collaboration with a fellow musician? It's not your imagination. Renowned conductor and composer Dr. Brian Norcross shares his insights on leadership, humility, challenge and support (yes, THAT challenge and support model), and the profound impact of empathy in education and community building. Learn some famous "Norcross-isms" and discover practical strategies to tap into your inner conductor to foster growth, trust, and resilience in students, colleagues and yourself. 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:09

Hello and welcome to Ms. Behavior, the podcast for college student conduct professionals. I'm Colette.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

And I'm Kurt.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

First, we wanted to make sure we reminded everybody our summer book club is coming up. The Just Desserts and Dissertations Club is meeting Thursday, July 16th at 4 p.m. Eastern Time. There's still time to sign up, get your free copy of the dissertation, which is Dr. Aaron Kaplan's How the Student Conduct Process Impacts Student Belonging. I'm on chapter four, y'all, and I think this should be mandatory, required reading for anyone that does student conduct work. So we hope that you'll pick your favorite dessert and join us for some conversation on July 16th. The registration link is right in our podcast information below. So it's easy to sign up.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Colette, I have a pro tip.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Don't buy your dessert yet because I already bought some and then I ate it. So now I'm gonna have to buy dessert again closer to the event.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

In our household, we have two rounds of Halloween candy.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Is the second round the discount Halloween candy?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

No, we end up buying the expensive ones the day before because we ate our way through the first two bags. And PS, we don't have any kids in our neighborhood, so we eat all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Then let me encourage you to a round three where you go to CVS and buy it when it's 70% off. It's even more delicious. So all right.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Noted. We've also found some good knockoff Girl Scout cookies at the local dollar store. So if you're doing a discount, just desserts and dissertations, I highly recommend the caramel coconut cookie. Let's get right into it. I'm very excited to introduce our special guest today, Dr. Brian Norcross, who, after 40 amazing years at Franklin and Marshall College, is retiring from running the instrumental music program there and has been highly influential to me as an educator and a leader. He is also a community builder. Dr. Norcross is a recruitment and a retention machine at the college. And I think there are lots of things you might be wondering like, why do we have an orchestra conductor on a conduct podcast? But I can't think of someone that I've learned more from as just being a human who works with other humans. I am excited to learn about your new life in the community because you already created a community orchestra at Franklin and Marshall when some other local colleges were starting to downsize their music programs. But also you're well known for being the head of the Allegro program in the community, which I think is still going.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yes. So first off, it's terrific to be here. And yes, Allegro is the Allegro Orchestra Lancaster is still very much going, as is the Allegro Next Gen Youth Music Program, which has four different performing groups under its auspices, serving about 200 students. And yes, I I retired from Franklin or Marshall. I was warned that I might be getting a lot of phone calls from from other institutions. I said, yeah, right. And then within days, I had three offers. So I've decided that in retirement it'd be fun to build a new community orchestra at Millersville University.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

I'm gonna say that you are joining me in the world of quotation mark retirement. But it's a fun place to be.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Well, part of this whole retirement thing isn't going comatose. It's finding new passions, new energies, and sometimes just new places. So the Millersville situation, I actually spent last year working with them. So I know many of the students. They now know me, which means my joyful reputation has influenced the Detell School of Music. So I'm I'm feeling pretty confident this is going to be a fun time. And it's most likely just a one year. Great. So I'm gonna try and build something up that then someone else can take. There's always a chance it might be more than one year. But at that point, then I'm making the decisions.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

And so we'll see how that all goes. I'm jealous of this air quote retirement business that you two are in because uh I think that sounds very appealing to me right now.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Well, my wife pointed out since I'm still doing the Allegro Orchestra and the Electro Next Gen, and I'm the director of music at the First Night Methodist Church, just those three positions on their own kind of constitutes a full-time job. So what we've decided is I've retired to do just one job instead of two. And I'm feeling good with that. She also says that she relaxes more when I work more.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

So it's a win-win.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Yeah, we we balance, we we balance things out.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

I'm pretty excited. We have a sort of standard icebreaker that Kurt is gonna do, and I I'm not sure I've ever been more excited for this one.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Sonly, I'm not that excited, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

So, uh, Brian, one of the things that we ask all of our guests is to tell us about a time when you got in trouble in college. So was there ever a time in college where you found yourself in trouble or in the conduct office?

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Well, I was not the kind of person that caused a lot of trouble. However, there were some things that I did behind the scenes that no one would believe that I actually did. And I supported some of my friends who did things that no one could believe they actually did. Um so since I'm a musician at the University of Massachusetts, which has a marvelous, very big marching band program and wonderful music majors, but those two contingents, those they don't necessarily mesh beautifully. So there was one of my friends, and I helped post the signs, created a sign that said that all nine music majors were gonna have to audition for marching band, and all music majors were excused from the audition. That that created a a little bit of turmoil.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Do I understand that, right? Was that your way to keep them out?

SPEAKER_00 6:21

That was just a way to annoy people. And and sometimes the the joy is just watching the annoyment. And also, if it's so ridiculous, people will say that that's not possible. So this was ridiculous, which of course caused some people to say, Oh my gosh, and then there was turmoil. Yeah. Um I mean, I had disagreements with professors. So I had a music history professor who gave us an exam, and I said, Everything in this exam, every single thing is in the book. So I studied the heck out of that book. Well, there was a question that I got wrong because I didn't study for that particular question, and I went back to the professor and said, This was not in the book. And he said, Look at page 165, the caption under the picture.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

I like that that professor did not even have to reach for it and knew exactly what page it was.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

The filter's down. I said, So what exactly are you teaching us? And he said, I'm teaching you how to leave my office. I said, Okay, Bob.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

I thought he was teaching how to be petty, but that's you know my take.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, it could be. So I I just I mean, I had disagreements with other students, which never rose to we'd have to get help. It was we'd have conversations, sometimes they were uncomfortable, sometimes we came to agreeing to disagree, but that's kind of how I'm put together. And so being defiant and not recognizing someone else's opinion was just not part of my DNA. So now you ask the question, I'm remembering some of those experiences. Wh which also after I have them, I shed that. But I've got enough stuff to carry around. I don't need that crap with me.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

It's interesting to hear though, people's relationship with rules and um accountability.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Yes. And particularly in the music world, if you're in performing groups, you have to work with other people. Which means, unfortunately, we don't all think the same way. Maybe that's not unfortunate. Maybe that's great. But sometimes in the moment it seems unfortunate. And we also have different philosophies and different egos. And when you have all that mixed together with people whose frontal lobes aren't very well developed, you have the potential for terrific disagreements.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

I wanted to start a little big picture. We all work with students of roughly similar ages in a sphere where mistake making is just part of the process. So Kurt and I meet with students who you know violate policies or are accused of breaking rules. And you work with an ensemble where you are trying to guide people toward a common outcome together. And to me, these things are the same. Um, but I I joined your ensemble after many years not picking up a pair of drumsticks. And I, a student had told me, like, oh, we're desperate for percussionists. Like, well, I used to play the drums. I was in all county drums, like when I was in eighth grade. And he's like, Great, Tuesday at 4 30, we're meeting. And I, first of all, that was I didn't realize it was going to become real, but then you were our leader, and I was terrified. And I would come to rehearsal at 4 30 and just stare at the clock, like, please be six o'clock, please be six o'clock. I was so scared. But you made it so safe to make mistakes. And I wondered, where did you learn that? Or is that in your DNA, or how did that evolve to have a culture of safety and an expectation that people were not going to be perfect?

SPEAKER_00 10:19

When I was in 10th grade, I grew up in New Jersey, I played French horn, and that year, through the audition process, I was first chair in Allstate. That's a big deal. My teacher reinforced to me that it was too soon. I wasn't ready for this. That did not help my confidence. So that was one issue that I learned the very hard way. The second thing was the guest conductor came from a major conservatory music. The repertoire he chose was amazing. So he that's the curriculum. So that's fantastic. But in the three days that we rehearsed together, basically eight hours a day, sometimes more, I don't remember him saying one positive thing. And there were some criticisms of how some of us performed that was so pointed that it was painful. Now, here's where things get interesting. So all the horns in the section all took lessons from the same teacher. So she swept the wind ensemble. There were five of us, we all took lessons from the same teacher. Her husband was a very well-known high school band director who knew all of us, who also knew the guest conductor. Okay, now we set the table for what's about to happen. At one point, the horns were struggling with a passage. It was probably my fault, I don't know. And the high school band director went to the guest conductor and said, Can I take the horns into the hallway and do a quick sectional on that passage that they're having trouble with? And the guest conductor said, Loud enough for everyone to hear, you can take the horns into the hall and leave them there. Now, that I can still hear his voice resonating in my soul. And I looked to the players on either side of me who were friends, and I said, What one thing can I do to improve based upon that comment? We are the best freaking players in the state. We should be having a blast. This should be so much fun, and this isn't fun. And then I said, I'm gonna become the joyful conductor, and no one will suffer the way we are suffering under this oppressive leadership. Wow, not bad for a tenth grader. That became my mantra, which was recognizing that everyone wants to do well. It's just sometimes they have trouble doing it. And if you blast them out of their chair, it's not going to help. Being the joyful conductor meant that mistakes that happened were joyful. This is great. I get to teach something. There was a reason for me to get up in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Yes. Right. Did you make up the norcrossisms that went along with their joyful conduct? Like Colette would like to try that again.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

That that was there were sort of things that I thought of saying, What what would I want to hear? And I can remember seeing an entire section or a player screw something up and recognizing what they really want to do is to do that better. Colette has asked if we can review that passage. So that tells Colette, I heard that. Tells Colette she's ready for what's going to be coming. If Colette has a question, like, I have no idea what that rhythm is, okay, let me help you with that. So when something goes sideways, it's my opportunity to teach. Now, 15 years after that 10th grade experience, I was at a conducting workshop at the same institution where that guest conductor was a faculty person. And conducting workshops are so interesting because you pay money so you can get up in front of some fine musicians and have a faculty conductor rip you to shreds in front of them. It's a wonderful growing experience, sort of. So this particular workshop was also tied with a conference for conductors. This is significant. So I realized my time was coming, and there's a rotation of faculty, and that guest conductor was going to be up when I was up. I remember him. He does not remember me. So I'm about ready to start. I'm conducting Aaron Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man, which starts with timpani going boom, boom, boom. Standing behind the timpanist was the high school band director who knows the story. My undergraduate conducting mentor, who knows the story, my master's conducting mentor, who knows the story, and my doctoral conducting mentor, who knows the story, and the four of them are friends. And they're standing there with their arms folded with a stupid grin on their face, like, I can't wait for this. This is gonna be great. So I did my thing. The guest conductor had a great critical comment of something I could do technically better. And then he looked to the group and looked to me and said, This conductor changed all of you. The music became joyful just because of his mere presence. And I looked at him and I said, Thank you. Because that was a nice thing to say. Holy cow. But it's also a thank you because he had crushed my musical soul when I was in tenth grade, and that forced me to rethink who I wanted to become. And that helped me also to understand how to go from there. Now, the other thing is I'm a French hornist. French horn is notorious for making mistakes because of the nature of how the thing is put together. It is a musical nightmare. So some of us even joke that mistakes are part of the timbre of playing French horn, which means I have incredible empathy for anyone who makes a mistake. Because I've been there and I've done it. Which also helped me to say, what do they need? Well, they need guidance, they need instruction. Sometimes they just need another chance. But the last thing they need is to be blown out of their chair.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

In our field, there's a scholar, his name is Sanford, and he has a famous theory called challenge and support. So if there are practitioners in our field that don't know any other developmental theories or psychosocial theories, everyone knows challenge and support, and it's basically the XY axis. And your job is to try to create just the right amount of challenge so that's not too much that crushes someone, but also you don't want to pamper them to the point that they never build confidence and resilience. So you find that sweet spot. You were somebody that could take, like my friend Eleanor came to college and she tells the story. I she may have been a horn player also, but she was a bass, a brass player. Yep. Yep. And you said, Well, we need a bassoonist. And I just have a good feeling about this. And she was like, I don't, I've never played a woodwind instrument in my life. And that happened hundreds or thousands of times for you, where you somehow knew, or did you, or can you tell us how how did you know how far you could push someone?

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Well, I I taught middle school and high school before going to the college level. And the and that was my well, I actually taught elementary band to start with. And in those experiences, you quickly have to figure out how far can I push this person before something bad happens? And where where are we going to go with this? So it was really working with the middle school kids that I started to figure it out. First off, they destroyed me. My first year, they ate me for lunch every day. So then I started to think about okay, who are the middle school teachers who I remember who can give me guidance based upon what I remember? One of them was my dad, because I had him for art, kindergarten through eighth grade. I thought we were going to college together. So I thought, how did he do this giving materials to all these middle school kids? And I remembered it was patience and persistence. So trying to be an authoritarian with middle school kids wasn't going to work. I had to out-energize them with joy and be patiently persistent. When I started to do that, they were amazing. And the tide changed, I no longer raised my voice. That was the other thing. I learned if I raise my voice, that just ratches up the problem. So when I brought that back down to conversational, wow, okay. And using fewer words helps because if you use too many words, they're not going to listen to all of them. Now, in that process, I had to find students to play oboe and bassoon and French horn. This is the normal problem for all middle school and high school directors. So I would just I would observe who are the people who clearly seem to have talent but were mired in the middle of a section and seemed to be going nowhere. And I would pull them aside and say, I think you have so much talent. How would you like to be the only person playing Oboe? And Kathy Rodriguez said, I think I'd like that. And three years later, she went to Allstate. So figuring that out was just observing who seems to have something going for them, but maybe there's something in the way. Maybe they need more challenge. Maybe they need less challenge. Maybe they need to get out of a mob scene. Maybe they need to be in a mob scene. So it's being able to observe where they were at and where I perceived maybe they could go. So I had a remarkable record of being able to turn to people and say, I think you'd be great on bassoon. I think you'd be great on horn. And I will give you lessons. I'm not going to leave you uh floating away. I'm here for you in this process. And when you grow past me, then we'll go with someone else who's going to help you. So that's what I did.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

I love the challenge and support model, but as we're talking about this, I'm struck by the intersection of empathy with this as well. Because in order to be able to figure out where people are, you need to be able to put yourself in their shoes to some extent or be able to read the room and have some level of emotional intelligence. And I don't know if that's something we talk about a lot when we talk about challenge and support, the how of how you how you figure out where somebody is and what they need at that exact moment. Emotional empathy is huge.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

It's huge for you as a leader to know where you're at. Because sometimes what you're trying to do, you're in not the condition to do it, but also where they're at. So yeah, empathy is a really, really big thing. And trying to figure out what their shoe size is, that that that's significant.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Have you ever had a student that you just couldn't read? Oh, yeah. To to try to find the uh that thing that would speak to them?

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Oh, yes, absolutely. And uh for those students, I learned telling the truth is helpful. I can't figure you out. I'd like you to tell me more about you. Why are you doing this? Why aren't you doing that? Huh. Do you have any idea what you want to do when you're like a little older, like next year? So I I do find telling the truth is useful when you can't figure it out. And even if you do think you figured it out, let's be clear. You're you're guessing. So that kind of conversation becomes really important.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

So with empathy, I that sounds like humility too, like leading with humility. Like I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Yeah, that's that's exactly it. Yeah, as soon as you think you got it, I got some very bad news. One of the best things for me was COVID. Oh, tell me. I thought I had it all figured out. I'm a music director. That's when I learned I'm not a music director, I'm a community director. And my community has a shared value, which is trying to do music well, instrumental music or choral music, because I conduct choirs also. Wow, okay. Incredible humility point there. And then when you're a leader and you make a mistake, you better fess up to it. And that changes everything. So the number of times in rehearsal, I don't like it when it happens, but to say, hey, I I'd screw that up. For me, let's do that again. Or I'm not gonna be ready to do that again for another week. So let's go past that rate now to give me time to practice and do this right. Now the rehearsal. Response from the students that I work with, and even the professionals, they say the same thing. First off, we didn't realize you made a mistake. Okay, I'm not sure I feel good about that, but that's okay. But then there's an empathy support from them saying, You do so many things so great. Yeah, don't be so hard on yourself. There's a wonderful story in one of Benjamin Xander's books. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Benjamin Zander. He's a conductor music educator. And this is what is it? Rule number six, is what it's called. And the story is two prime ministers are meeting in one of the prime minister's home office. And one of the assistants comes in to the home prime minister very agitated. The home prime minister listens to him and then says, Remember rule number six. And the assistant stops and says, Of course. Yes, thank you. And they leave. Well, the same thing happens when another person comes in. And again, remember rule number six. So after this second time, the visiting prime minister says, What's rule number six? And the home prime minister says, Don't take yourself so damn seriously. And then the visiting prime minister says, Wow, what are rules one through five? And the home prime minister says, They there aren't any. When you free yourself from the weight of all of it, that oftentimes frees you to be then have the empathy and the humility that you need. Because really, rule number six is all about humility.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

When did that come for you? Because I I think that takes some practice. About two hours ago. When you couldn't find your headphones.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

That was it.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

I'm like, oh I think humility, at least for me, I I had to learn it sometimes the hard way.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Humility you have to keep on learning because there are other things that tend to grow in. They're weeds, and weeds grow fast. And humility is a slow growing tree. And that means you have to be aware that, whoa, there's a lot of weeds here. I'd better get back to my tree. So I think humility is a constant relearn, reposition, reconnect. And I think that helps us mortals to figure out what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

That feels very similar to the challenge and support axis. The XY, like the more authority you have, you need to increase the humility by that proportion to I study leadership.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

I work with a leadership coach. I got incredible readings to do. This whole leadership thing is really difficult. And one of the things that is missed quite oftentimes is humility. And the other thing is we have a lot of models that aren't very good. And not to be political at all, but in the last couple decades, we've had a parade of bad leaders in front of us. So that that does not help. I mean, for me as a conductor, I don't have a model of what I do. You're you've created the model for the rest of us. Perhaps I do know someone who said they've watched me say, okay, I got I'm gonna be Norcross. And after a year they came back and said, Okay, this whole Norcross thing is really personal, and I I'm not you. I said, Thank God, because you can imagine if there were two of us, it would be like antimatter and terrible. But within all of that, there are concepts that we can have that can fit in all of our personalities, and then you can put it into your shoe size and be able to do something with that. But humility and leadership, and clearly when we're talking about people who are helping students who are in crisis, man, humility is huge. And you become a model for that student who's in crisis. They're not gonna remember the punishment, they aren't right, they're gonna remember how they're treated.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

It's interesting though. I I got to perform with two students that did go on to become, and I've referred to them like they're the Brian Norcross of their university now. But both of them separately, they didn't even say this together, but they both said it after I came back to play in the alumni concert that we all got to do this spring with you. They're like, oh my gosh, I just noticed how many things I do that I didn't know where they came from. And now I know. And so they carried on a an intangible part of you that it wasn't like I'm gonna be him, but it they did channel some of you.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

I've become increasingly aware of the extraordinary impact a person can have. And I've been blessed. The students I work with, I see them almost every day for four years, with the exception of athletic coaches. Nobody else gets that. So, yes, that means I infect them. And sometimes I'm sorry about that, but it does mean that there's there's some something that carries into them, and that can even be through a very short-time connection. I have so many stories, but here comes another one. And this is going to sound egotistic on my part. It's not. I'm just relaying a story. So I was guest conducting a PMAA, that's Pennsylvania Music Educators Association, regional orchestra. One of my college colleagues, his daughter was playing in the group. His daughter was known for being excessively quiet. So on the way home from this festival, she was talking constantly on the way home. And both of her parents are like, Where's our daughter? Because I don't know who that is in the backseat, who's just going off and off and off on all the experiences they've had, and then announced, I want to be just like Norcross. I'm going to become a music educator. And both of the parents are like, pull over, just talk to her. And that's what happened. So I ended up seeing my colleague when I was busy in another college where one of my kids were attending, and he sat down next to me and said, It's your fault. Why don't you fill me in? Because I have no idea what I've done. And so he explained what happened in that festival that changed her whole perspective. And then she went to college to do that, and she was graduating to do exactly that.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Wow. That was just three days. So when something that's really important and effective infects a person, it's there. And now they've got that to carry with them. And I think that does come back to remembering how they were treated.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

I was just in a meeting in the last two days with other student conduct people from around the country. And God, this is constant. Um like, can you all tell me like we just need the perfect sanction for in this case it was hazing? And I talked about you know restorative practices and what I kind of wish I had channeled you, like there is no perfect sanction. There's the relationship. And if you build trust, it doesn't matter what you do, like it will lead to a positive outcome. That's what I wish I had said. But when I go off to conferences, like, hey, are there any workshops y'all want me to go to? It's always around sanctions, getting the perfect creative sanction. I like the perfect sanction is one that you built with the student together to get them what they need. I need to channel that Norcross in me to be a little more strong about like it's not about the sanction.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah, it's it's what the the student needs. With my conducting students, I say there are two pillars to what we're doing. One is what the composer needs, the other is what your performers need. Sounds like the sanction is what does the institution need and what does the student need.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

The composer is the our code of conduct.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Which can be wrong, can be unjust, un or Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

I mean I had had an experience with one of my daughters who had an issue at another university. And I ended up talking to their person in charge of of these things. And I said, Okay, we see what happened. There's no question what happened. I think the better question is why. And with the why, then this sanction doesn't make sense. And they said, Well, that's the code of conduct. I said, Well, in which case then a computer could do this. I guess now we'd say AI could do this.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

I used to say a monkey could do Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

So what we need is a human to look at this and recognize, yes, it's black and white what the rules are, but how that is dealt and the issues around that with a human needs a human. I said, I I don't know about you, my conversation with this person at another university. Doesn't it feel embarrassing not to be functioning like a human on this?

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

That kind of ended our conversation. I don't think that went well.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

I'm gonna bring up one other, I don't know if this would be a proper norcrossism. And I didn't know how to fit it into this conversation, but this feels like when you when we used to drag, and often it's the percussion folks that are guilty of this, you would tell us, like, when you are dragging the tempo, it literally hurts my arm.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

And that came back to me a hundred times a thousand times over my career in conversations like this, where we're like, we need to really innovate our practice. Like the lawyer won't like that. Oh, that I don't know, that's too risky. No, we don't want to change. That'll take and I'm like, you're hurting my arm. Right. Like we're ready, like we are ripe for some change, but uh, I just I don't know, maybe you're guilty of planting that in me, but it it hurts.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

It it literally hurts. And for me, that's a physical, I can feel the weight of the group on my arm as I'm moving as a conductor. I think what you described is feeling the weight of all this on your soul, your teaching soul. When sometimes when folks are dragging, I use the comment, you are late and slow. And the flip side of this, you need to anticipate and energize. Well, then when you're thinking about all this, how you're going to anticipate and energize, that that's a little bit different. Anticipating is vision and energizing is move moving.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

It's writing this down. Anticipate and energize.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

It's almost like deficit language, like you're taking deficit language and flipping it on its on its end.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Flip. Yeah. Man, when you flip situations, you turn a negative into a positive, and we've got plenty of negatives. And if you're gonna look at them as a negative, well, I mean, that that doesn't grow. But if you can take that negative and make it the root system for a positive, now we got something completely different.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

There's so many musical metaphors. I I remember playing Gershwin with you where I had to play these bicycle horns.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

And if and I just had to go beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

And to do it on the beat meant that I was it wasn't going to make the sound until uh a half second after it was needed. And you just told me, like, Killette, just start the beep a half beat early. Um what it in my work now, I just I call that like can we get ahead of this? Like, can we anticipate the impact of a decision that we're going to make? And I I but I like the the term energize too. Like, isn't this fun to be able to think ahead?

SPEAKER_00 33:16

No, that that changed that makes it joyful. Now it it's okay to respond and react because that means you're observing. That that's really important. But if you're always responding, reacting, you're always behind.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

I don't know about Kurt. I I'm eager to hear the uh Brian's conduct story.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

I am too, yeah. And I'm worried I was the conduct officer.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

I believe that folks need to come to rehearsals on time. And to be on time means you have to be there at least 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes ahead, so you can get your instrument ready, warmed up, you're in position, get your head, your soul, your heart ready. So I had a really significant talk with one of the performing groups about all of this. And I decided that the next time someone came in late and I had a chart as to who had classes just before. So the classes just before, I'm like, okay, I'll get them. But if they don't, there's going to be a public execution. This has to stop. And lo and behold, the next rehearsal in walked this particular student. I could use their name, but I'm not going to because I remember it. And public execution. So after rehearsal, she came up to me and apologized and then said, I had left to come to rehearsal 15 minutes early. And then my phone went off. It was my mom. Her brother, my uncle, had just been killed in a car crash. And I was talking her down. And I went from 5'10 to 3.3 foot three. And suddenly the situation had flipped from her apologizing to me to me apologizing to her and now putting on my mental health first aid hat and saying, okay, let's sit down and talk. Tell me about your uncle. How are you? What can we do for you? And I'm so sorry what I did to you. So the lesson for me was the first thing you do is ask, Are you okay? If they say yes, now you can execute them. But if they say no, then you can have a conversation and figure out what's gone wrong.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

That's your sound bite right there, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

It's tick-tock, here we come.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

So not long after, I had a student percussionist who did not arrive for a rehearsal for a concert. So immediately after that rehearsal, I called. They answered the phone and I said, Hey, it's Brian Norcross. Are you okay? They immediately apologized, saying, Oh my gosh, I fell asleep. I'll be there in three minutes. I said, Okay, great. I just need to know you're all right. Thanks. He was a sophomore at that point. In his senior year exit interview with the chemistry department, they asked, What was the most significant event of your time at Franklin or Marshall? He said, I slept through a rehearsal, and Brian Norcross called me, and the first thing he asked was, Are you okay? That was the first time I thought anybody cared about me. I was ready to transfer. And then I realized somebody cared about me.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

I have another question. I thought that was a good place to end, but I can't end it. It's similar to the question I asked before, but about like how do you know how much to challenge somebody? But in terms of a group, there were some times you chose pieces where I was like, oh golly, we don't have any business doing this piece. And yet, in the end, there we were. And there had to have been mistakes and that had to have gone into your calculus. But sometimes we have to make those student conduct decisions to like, when do you give somebody a third chance, a fourth chance, knowing, or even a second chance, like, oh, Brian's coming back again? You know, our one conversation, I know it's not gonna be enough. They're they're gonna get in trouble a few more times. But what is your calculus for knowing? When is something just too hard and too many mistakes?

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Part of it is experience. I choose repertoire with great care. It's the curriculum. And it's based upon what I perceive I know about the students or the musicians, professionals also. It's the amount of time that we have to rehearse together, it's the amount of all the things that I think are difficult, and what I think that they can accomplish, and how much more I think they can accomplish than they think they can. Which means in the initial reading, I'm evaluating how long do I think it's gonna take to fix that? How long to fix that, how long to fix that. After we've gone through maybe two weeks, if I don't see a pathway, then I'll say, hey folks, you know what? I think I've made a mistake. I think this is a great piece, but we got we're gonna have to change. And usually uh there's applause. Or but maybe we're at that two-week point and I see a pathway, and that's when I will say to the group, this is hard. You've already figured that out. And you might be asking, why in the world has Norcross lost his mind again and given us this kind of music that we have no business performing? And the reason is I believe in you, and it's what we do in the Franklin and Marshall Orchestra, Symphonic Wind Ensemble, Philharmonic, whatever it is. And that became a rallying call. Because there would be students who would say, the reason we do this is because we're the Franklin and Marshall Symphonic Wind Ensemble. Yeah, we do it because it's hard. Because it's hard. And he believes in me. He said so. And then when that first step of improvement happens, I'm all over it. Yes, that is so much better. Because the next thing we need to do. So positive reinforcement, then the the uh not constructive criticism, but the the teaching. Positive, and the positive has to be timely and truthful. I can't say, hey, that was great when it wasn't great. You all knew it was wasn't great. Hey, we made progress, not much, but we did this. Excellent. Now here's what the next step is. So that's where I think with a conduct situation of saying, hey, look at what you did that was good. Now let's figure out how we can not get you in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

I have a little phrase, I mean, I it's not rocket science, but I don't use it very often. But I'm just saying to a student, this can never happen again. Are we in agreement here? Like this can never happen again. This can never happen again. Where 99% of cases I talk to students, like, I'm not going to surveil you. You might choose to do this again. But I'm yeah, I I think there's a trust in that, like this one thing, can we just agree right here at this table? Never again.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

This this is never happening again.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Um, but there's trust in that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

There have been times when when I need to do something disciplined with a a student, I I don't want to do it in front of people. So this is a a one-on-one conversation. In which case I can say, listen, you might do this again, and I won't know. So it's just between you and God. I'm not sure how you feel about that, but I think that might be something you should consider.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

I'd say the same thing, but uh you and your conscience.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Yes. So it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

I'll leave this with you. This I'm gonna have to just leave it with you to decide.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

And if you can live with that kind of baggage, that darkness hanging around your soul, okay. I don't think you should.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

And I won't think any worse of you. You're still the same person.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

But and that's where s when someone has made a significant mistake, knowing that there's someone who's saying, I still care for you. The mistake you made is not gonna change that. The number of times I've had a student come up to me and say, I hope you're not gonna hate me because they had to miss a rehearsal or something. I said, Do you understand? There is literally nothing you can do that will cause me not to always love you. I am never going to hate you. You can try, but it's not gonna work. So that flips it again. They're like, okay, so and and there's the that's humanism being humanistic, checking on the shoe size. I learned something huge from the choral director that I replaced at First United Methodist. He was there for 25 years. And as he handed me his keys, he said to me, I said, You left big shoes for me to fill. He said, Well, you better bring your own because I'm taking mine. Okay, now I've been there for 33 years, and I feel really badly for the person who has to take my shoes because there's nothing left. They're tatters. But yeah, getting into there, what are what are they feeling? Boy, that helps makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Let's end right there.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

That was perfect punctuation.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Dr. Norcross, thank you for this. Thank you for a lifetime of joy.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

This has been terrific. I'm so glad we got to do this.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Ms. Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan. Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from NCompotech.com. You can contact Ms. Behavior at Ms. Behavior College at gmail.com. That's Ms Behavior College at gmail.com.