Is Traitors a Mirror of Student Conduct?

Colette and Kurt are shameless fans of the show Traitors, but also curious about how the game demonstrates human dynamics we see in conduct work. From examining evidence, recognizing our biases, making decisions about responsibility, and responding to intense emotions, we've got some fun lessons to learn.

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Theme music "Fuzzball Parade" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Hello, and welcome back to the Ms. Behavior Podcast, the podcast for college student conduct professionals. My name is Colette.

SPEAKER_07 0:18

And I'm Kurt.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

And we are We're in summer mode.

SPEAKER_07 0:22

It's summer mode.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

We'd like to remind everybody we're getting excited for our first ever Ms. Behavior Book Club, the Just Desserts and Dissertations Book Club. And the first dissertation is Dr. Erin Kaplan's How the Student Conduct Process Impacts Student Belonging. If your college, like many, are worried about retention and building lifelong relationships with students and not just getting them to graduation, this is a must read. And that is July 16th. And the link to sign up for the virtual book club is in our podcast information. So we hope that you will join. We have quite a lot of people right now already signed up.

SPEAKER_07 1:08

Now, Colette, I have not started reading yet because I am knee deep in another dissertation. But how many stars are you giving this out of 10?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Oh, out of 10?

SPEAKER_07 1:16

Out of 10.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

10, maybe. I love it. If I measured it by how often I reference it, uh yikes, I I couldn't get it, give it any less. It's beautifully written. The research is out of this world. I really admire anyone that can do great qualitative research.

SPEAKER_05 1:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

And Erin showed a lot of self-awareness in identifying what biases she needed to look out for in her own research, but how to really welcome and the whole story of students that she interviewed. I I believe we were a couple students that she interviewed signed up to be part of the book. Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_07 2:04

I think this was a brilliant idea. So kudos to you. I I get to read a lot of dissertations in my side job, and I always worry that they're just gonna sit on somebody's shelf and, you know, somebody may stumble upon them in research, but uh really lifting these up and showcasing them and getting people excited about research and maybe sparking interest for somebody else to pursue a doctorate and do their own research, I think is it's such a great idea.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Thank you. I didn't tell you we're gonna have another special guest there, and that is a journalist from Inside Higher Ed who registered and we spoke this week. Uh, she wants to come and interview folks and give some attention to the scholarship. So that was really fun news to hear.

SPEAKER_07 2:55

We love Inside Higher Ed.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Mm-hmm. I also want to add, we're gonna after book club on the 16th, we're gonna extend the time and do the first ever Ms. Be Happy Hour, where folks who maybe don't want to do the book club, but uh just want to help build community are welcome to attend. So you can come to both, come to one or the other, but I think that we should all just have a chance to not talk about where uh and the format will be good for introverts, good for extroverts. So hopefully anyone could come in and feel like they could join right in and feel comfortable.

SPEAKER_07 3:39

I appreciate the considerations for the introverts.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Very tight. Uh I still to this day when I go to conferences, like please don't maybe have to walk into a room with strangers.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

I just want to know it's one person I can lock on to.

SPEAKER_07 3:55

I just want to sit in the back by myself in the corner and watch everything and not be engaged in that way. I mean, obviously I want to be engaged, but I don't want to uh yeah, I'm not good at idle chit-chat. Uh me either.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Me either.

SPEAKER_07 4:10

Are you enjoying the conference so far? What's your favorite session? Did you find any good spots to eat? There are only so many questions you can ask a stranger at a conference.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

It reminds me of moving, moving in tenth grade, like their first day with your cafeteria tray.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Like who looks like you can sit down next to them.

SPEAKER_07 4:33

Who doesn't look like a mean girl?

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:39

Oh lordy.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Well, uh, we have something in common that it's gonna kick off our conversation today.

SPEAKER_07 4:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Do you wanna do you wanna kick it off?

SPEAKER_07 4:51

It is uh my minor ex obsession with the traders and specifically right now, the uh Traders UK celebrity edition. Celebrity Traders UK, phenomenal. I know we both watched it. I think you told me to watch it, and I was stuck on another season. I skipped over it and uh and watched it last week.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

I just read so many New York Times critics saying, like, this show was so great when the last US one launched. Do you want to describe for listeners who might not be traitors fans yet, what the Traders is?

SPEAKER_07 5:29

It is uh some of the most amazing sociological people watching. Uh, they get 20 to 24 people in a room, in this case, uh celebrities, and they have them sit around a round table and blindfold them, and the host picks three people to be the traders, and the rest are the faithfuls. And it is the job of the traders the entire game to be clandestine and try to pick people off. Uh, and it is the job of the faithfuls to try to sniff them out and see if they can catch trader. And uh, there are challenges, they're all trying to win money for their respective charities. Uh, but for me, it is just some of the most fascinating sociological interactions between people and watching people uh leap to assumptions and uh yeah, I don't know. I I don't know why I'm so obsessed with it. It's it's fun and it is of course it's fun. It's TV.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

It's so deceptively simple. It's like a party game that we've probably all played, and it comes in different names. Every few years there's a new version of it. It's also the complexities of relationships, yeah. And it's like a reality show where during the daytime over several weeks, they'll compete in little like field day competitions where they have to work collaboratively together, and then at night they have to vote somebody off, like Survivor, but they have to try to vote the people who are subversively infiltrating their larger group, who can be really wonderful humans.

SPEAKER_07 7:18

And it's I think that's the round table where they do the voting for me is the most fascinating. Because in a general game where it's just 20 people that have never met each other, they have one day together to get to know each other before the game officially starts and a trader is selected. Uh, and then they start watching each other and looking for clues that somebody is a trader. And the assumptions that they leap to, I think, are for me the most fascinating because I find myself wondering constantly like what lens are they bringing to the table that is having them reach this conclusion? Because as a watcher, you know who the traders are. And you're watching them leap to assumptions. Oh, this person said uh they pronounced something incorrectly or they dropped their fork during breakfast. So that must mean they were nervous, and that means they're a trader. Yeah, it's crazy to watch. I I every season is obviously different. You know, it's um you've got a new group of people, the dynamic shift. But something about the celebrity version, I think adds an extra layer of deception because these are people who are known quantities, but they're known a lot of performers, but they are actors as a career, high level. I think um one of the guys, Mark, um, he had gray hair. He was older. He said, you know, I'm kind of known for playing a jerk on TV. He's like, that's not who I am in real life, though. And he was he lasted relatively long, but I think he was always worried that people are thinking, well, he plays this kind of person on TV, so that's who he is. He's probably a traitor.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

So let's they're just in this little five-minute conversation. I have thought of so many conduct cases where dynamics like this feel exactly the same. Yes. So Mark came in worried that he would already be labeled the villain. And I and he was. He was that every it felt like every week they were questioning, like, oh, and we always have to go back to Mark. And I think of students in our offices with maybe they've got a thick little file from things they did their first year, and assumptions can be made, like, well, he did it before, of course he'll do it again. And um Yeah, I there's so many things though that feel like what we do professionally, like having to make judgment calls and uh you can't leave the room without voting somebody off. Like you can't leave the room before you make a decision about their case.

SPEAKER_07 10:08

Somebody's leaving here with a sanction. I don't know who it is. I no, I I think about you know, any work we do with students, um, oftentimes, you know, especially at the beginning of the year, we we don't know what they're bringing with them. And we're making assumptions, um, often not intentionally, about who they are. And we're applying the lens, our own unique lens to their experience um without necessarily knowing them. So I and I think that that is the heart of what makes traders interesting. That, you know, to what degree can you take a step back from your assumptions and start making decisions based on the relationship you develop versus the assumptions that you are bringing into the situation with you?

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Yeah. I watched the American traders first and the difference culturally between them. Uh now I've only watched the British ones. I'm about to join you in starting the Canadian version, but the Americans in the the wrap-up show where they all have a reunion and come back and talk about it. Oh, they hold grudges.

SPEAKER_05 11:26

They do.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

If you wronged somebody in that game, people took it personally, they form alliances with um other groups, not based on character, but based on characteristics. Yes. So if you're a housewife, you're gonna bond with the other housewives, even if you hate each other.

SPEAKER_07 11:46

Yes, and even if you don't know if they're a traitor.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

And found the British approach it as a game and a learning opportunity, something interesting.

SPEAKER_07 11:59

Yeah, I think the poll that they draw from is different. I think what I notice about the American version, when they do a celebrity version, they are often drawing from uh competitive reality TV shows like Survivor, um, social um reality shows like Big Brother or The Housewives, which you know I love, but they are prone to fighting and drama. So you're bringing together people that are used to competing and who are on TV to cause a kerfuffle, um, as opposed to the British version, where I saw was David, was he like a historian or a mathematician or something? I'm trying to remember. He made it all the way to the end. Um, historian and filmmaker, David Olsoga. Yeah. They I think they had a greater diversity of um folks from different backgrounds that were, you know, Celia Imri. I mean, she's a national treasure. She's Nick Ma Nick Muhammad, you know, from uh Ted Lasso, you know, you've got Alan Carr. It was a star-studded list, but I don't think any of them are professional reality TV people, which is what you get in the American version. Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

They are built to compete and outthink each other.

SPEAKER_07 13:28

Yes, yes. And I fully agree. I think what you got out of the, in my opinion, from the British show was a a richer exploration of collaboration. These are folks that by and large didn't work together and they were not used to being in competitive reality TV, where all of the American version is in some form of competition. Even on Housewives, they're competing for attention. Uh Big Brother, they're competing for money. Survivor, oh my gosh. Survivor, they're competing for money. Um, yeah. And even like I loved um Cat. And I don't want to say how far Kat got or what Kat's jam was, but um, it was so interesting to um see somebody who is neurodivergent um portrayed in just a very chaotic environment and talking about the realities of what it's like to participate in an event like this as somebody who is neurodivergent.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Um and we had Jamie D'Amico on our show talking about that, and he would like to come back and and really do a deeper dive into that particularly interesting part of uh conduct. But uh yeah, because people were making assumptions like Kat, you haven't been making a lot of eye contact with folks this week, and uh everybody else acted this way, but you acted this other way. And Kat said, like, I yeah, I'm not gonna act like what you think is a normal uh person. And uh it was interesting.

SPEAKER_07 15:14

At one point, somebody, I don't know if it was Stephen or one of the other folks, had clocked her and said, I think you're a traitor because you take a lot of naps, and a trader would have to be deliberating. Yes, deliberating. And Kat said, you know, as a neurodivergent person, this sort of takes the wind out of my sails. So I do need to take a break every once in a while and recharge.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

And um yeah, it was it was let's unpack that a little bit. That feels like a hearing too.

SPEAKER_05 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Where we make assumptions like the student came in, they wouldn't even look up and they weren't taking it seriously, they were sitting there taking notes the whole time. And then if you ask about it, like Steven asked about it, and they can explain, like, oh yeah, that I'm not gonna be acting that way.

SPEAKER_07 16:15

Yeah, we I think we spend a lot. I mean, when I was coming up through the system, you know, part of our training was just thinking about the cultural lens through which you are interacting with a student in a hearing versus the culture that they bring. So it might not be appropriate for them to make eye contact if they are in a conduct hearing and they perceive you as somebody who has a position authority, it could be considered disrespectful. So I I assume now in the the current world of student conduct that there are discussions about neurodivergent students and how to have a meaningful conversation and what assumptions you might be bringing with you when you are interacting with somebody who is neurodivergent. That sounds am I using the right phrase?

SPEAKER_02 17:06

I I go back and forth between neurodiverse, neurodivergent, neurodifferent. I I hope folks give us grace.

SPEAKER_07 17:17

Yeah. I heard somebody say the other day, neuroatypical, and it it grated at me a little bit, like it almost felt they they didn't mean it in a judgmental way, but it didn't it it felt like it was inherently loaded because you were saying atypical instead of and comparing it to typical. It felt like normal, abnormal. I yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

The fact that we're having this conversation though, I was about to say I don't think we're talking about it enough. I agree. And giving people the skills because it's not our business. This is a diagnosis. So we're not allowed to just call the um the disability services office or accessibility folks and ask, like, oh, so and so on the spectrum, a so-and-so, ADHD, um, and knowing how to sensitively ask, and also how many people are not diagnosed, but they are presenting. Um, but to be able to ask, like oh, actually, we we asked Dr. Norcross, the music conductor, about uh what do you do when you just can't read a student? And he said, I asked them, I just say I'm having a hard time reading you. And I thought, ah, how easy is that? And how how many missed opportunities have we had?

SPEAKER_07 18:44

And I'm sure there are students who don't feel comfortable disclosing up front because of a bad experience that they've had in their life, that they were maybe treated differently because they wanted to share something about themselves.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

In that example you gave with Stephen Fry when he asked Kat about like you are really tired, you are sleepy in the morning, and the traders have to stay up at night and do all this extra work where the rest of us get to go back to the hotel and sleep. He was right.

SPEAKER_07 19:18

He was.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

And Kat deflected, like, I have a diagnosis. And the conversation ended there. They did not vote Kat off that night, and I'm not sure Kat even got any votes.

SPEAKER_07 19:35

I don't I don't know if Kat did either.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

But I'm thinking, Steven, you have very little evidence to go on, but you may have had a preponderance of evidence in that case, and so we have to be careful too to to not use that information as necessarily mitigating it's just part of the bigger puzzle.

SPEAKER_07 20:00

And I I appreciated Kat's vulnerability in going on, you know, such a widely aired show and peeling back some of the layers. I think so much of what I have learned as hmm, how do I want to say this? I I grew up in a very rural space. So for me, uh a lot of times seeing things on TV was my only exposure to um other cultures or people that were different from me. I grew up in a school we we had two African American students, two Hispanic students. So even on the very limited TV that I had access to, not having cable when I was a kid, seeing things on PBS and um seeing representation of other cultures, it did make me it build awareness. And I've thought about that with LGBTQ people. I I can look at Will and Grace and say, okay, it was problematic in some regards, but what an amazing thing to have that representation on TV to start to normalize queer people for swaths of the country who maybe felt like they had never interacted with somebody that was from that background. And I think now starting to see more neurodivergent characters on TV, I hope that that is helping the neurodivergent community feel like they are more seen and um giving people who are not neurodivergent some of the language to talk and have conversations about it that are productive and you know, make people feel maybe less awkward asking a question or uh knowing the right way to ask something. It was interesting to me that that was a part of Kat, but they didn't make it the whole of who cat was. They equally focused on, or more so, I think, the Fact that um Kat was a musician. So um yeah, I thought that was fun.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

I had did not notice this on the American version, but the British version, every season they had folks with visible disabilities and invisible. And you're right. There was one woman who had no hand.

SPEAKER_05 22:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

And um there was a one of the like I call them field day activities. They were all like tied to a post and they had to get themselves untied and then go do this activity. And she's like, this is where not having a hand sure comes in handy. I was just like, oh my gosh, yes, humor and just obvious. And I just I loved that they were very conscious about their casting.

SPEAKER_07 22:52

Did you have any this might include spoilers? Any uh any favorite moments from this season of the Traders?

SPEAKER_02 23:00

From the celebrity or from the um what do they call them? The commoners. I love the commoner seasons too. Oh, I just loved.

SPEAKER_07 23:13

It's all good TV for me. Uh I would say for me, I was curious about your favorite moments from the uh celebrity UK edition.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Actually, all of the seasons, but I I can't I'm not sure I can do it without doing a spoiler, but at the very end, the very last big reveal where the the last traitor revealed themselves, on the American versions, there would have just been outrage and like, oh, you betrayed us all and you made us trust you. And the person admitted it and just immediately started weeping and said, It's been so hard. Like it's it's hard to lie. Almost all of the traders say it's so hard to lie, which we should talk about about conduct hearings. But that is the job.

SPEAKER_05 24:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

You like maybe you made a pact with all your friends, like we are all gonna lie, no one's gonna admit who bought the booze, no one's gonna admit who set the fire. Um as soon as they started crying, the other competitors immediately went into support mode. Like, it's okay, we understand, we have empathy, that must have been hard. And um I just I want a world where we can see both sides of things, like, oh damn it. I wanted to win. I yeah, but also you're you're a good person.

SPEAKER_07 24:48

I did feel like that was a favorite moment for me in the game, too, because it felt like the game just sort of immediately dissolved and they were all just being people together and um you know, recognizing that the game was amazing, but there was an emotional toll. Like they're like having to be on and lying when maybe it's not part of your everyday persona. Gosh, it's gotta be stressful. I was also, I'll I'll try not to spoil either just thinking about the reveal at the end and the oh fuck. When somebody thought it was going one way and then it went another way. I was like, that person, I throughout the entire season captured my heart. But in that moment, he was just so darling.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I well, and they're playing for charities that they care a lot about, and they oh gosh, he was ready to take that trophy and the big check and give it to their charity, and um that is heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_07 25:52

It is. My other favorite moment was um Celia Imri farting in that church, and they left it in.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Oh, we rewind multiple times. She and she owned it.

SPEAKER_07 26:12

She's like, I think she even said she's like, I did it. She's like, one thing about me, I'll always own it. But I mean, talk about somebody who I mean, she has enough celebrity. She very easily could have been like, I'm gonna need you all to cut that because but what a human moment.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Oh my gosh, all-time favorite moment, probably from the all all the shows I've seen.

SPEAKER_07 26:37

I hope they can go back and look at data that shows like how many people rewatch certain sections. I just want to see a giant spike where where that happened.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

The Brits, I've spent plenty of time on YouTube looking up their interviews. More so I like the commoners.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

I hope people will forgive me. I just everyday people.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Everyday the mortals, um. But when they go out to do their press promotion and they'll go in a group of the people that won, the people that lost, and they are the best of friends because they were at camp. It's like they spent you know, a month at camp together in this castle. And the Americans I have not seen talking about like, oh my gosh, I met some of the best friends I'll have for my whole life. Uh and their ability to forgive, and that feels like a restorative um like everyone was made whole. The winners, the losers, and they can just see each other as the people that they are.

SPEAKER_07 27:54

I do wonder if this is a uniquely non-American thing. I don't want to say even a British thing, because I feel like I see it in Canadian shows too. But also like the Great British Baking Show. I don't know if you watch that, uh, but very similar. They're competing against each other, but they also will help each other if somebody's cake is falling over. Yeah two people will run and help them put it back together. Even at the very end, all of the contestants come back for the reveal and to celebrate the people who won. And it's all uh I mean, maybe they're editing out negativity, but it just looks like they're all there to support the winner and they're also happy. And, you know, then they do the little like what's happened since this aired, and they show them like, oh, these five people get together all the time now because they live close to each other, and this group traveled up to Wales to meet with this person. It's yeah, it's just it's nice.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

We talk about building belonging and building like that is a community that they have built, and maybe it is just the British ethos, so they don't have to work as hard at it as a hall director in a group of RAs might have to, but I I think it deserves to be kind of scrutinized. Like, why are we not developing these types of communities where every everybody realizes like one person's success is everybody's success.

SPEAKER_07 29:26

Yes. It is. Um I think it is a growing conversation in our political landscape when you look at I think what's happening in in New York City right now with Zora Montami. He seems like somebody who is trying to foster those kinds of discussions where people are being brought along and not left behind.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

I'd like to talk about something that stands out to me as a conduct person when I watch Traders, and I think it's more American, but they all did it. Is in the beginning interviews, when you get to meet all the competitors, almost all of them will say, I am a fantastic judge of character. I am gonna ace this game because I can read people. And they uh usually for the the mortal version of the Brits, they're they'll usually include a detective or a police chief or someone who does a psychic, yeah. Actor, like, oh, I do summer stock, and so I'm an actor, so I'll be able to you know do this. And there's research, one of Malcolm Gladwell's books particularly talks about this. Humans are not good judges of character, we can't tell when somebody is lying, and we all think we can. Yep, but at least the British mid-season, usually, even all of those people, and some of them are really arrogant or interrogators in their approach. They they finally admit, like, I I have no clue.

SPEAKER_07 31:08

It does seem like a humbling experience that you may have been exceptionally good, or you thought you were good at you know, as a police officer, uh being able to suss out if somebody was telling the truth or not. And then you go on a show like this, either it's the context is different and you can't do it, or you were never doing it well at all. And you just you got to say you were good at it because of the legal system and you know the fact that it's in many ways, in my opinion, rigged um against against people. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Can we talk about the cauldron, like the table, the the voting table, yeah, where they they have a few minutes where they can question each other and then they have to make their vote of who they're gonna vote off. And that feels like a hearing to me.

SPEAKER_07 32:02

It does. And it's chaos also. Um I I feel like there at least half the time I watch this show, I go in based on, and maybe it's just the editor's cut, you think you know what's going to be put on the table, and the dynamics between the people, it's just it's fascinating to me to watch what people will pick up on. And you throw your evidence out, like you would in a conduct hearing, um, and you see what sticks with people, and then people start pulling at the same thread, and suddenly the heat's completely off of the person you thought was going home that night, and it is 100% on somebody that maybe you were not expecting.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Yeah. And then the the different ways, well, there's the questioning of like Kurt, I'm just coming. You knew I was coming all day, and I just think you're a traitor. I don't know why, but I can tell. And I've seen those types of hearings. I see folks be a little more um like Stephen Fry of you just seem really sleepy every morning, and I don't know, but if I put two and two together, it feels like you might be a traitor. And they felt like it would go further.

SPEAKER_07 33:21

Yeah, I think so. I think it elicits a conversation instead of a defense mechanism. I was just thinking of going back to the whole conversation between Steven and Kat, it was a conversation, and Kat got to share why there were naps included in their day. And I think that there are other situations I think of where it just becomes a shouting match of like, I saw you do this, and this is what you meant when you did that, and then that's not what I meant at all. And I think you're the trader because that's it, it just becomes a a defense structure instead of a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Yeah. And the goal then in a hearing, it just changes from trying to educate to trying to win. And in that case, Kat did what I see a lot of students do Kat told the truth. I asked you about being sleepy, gave me an answer that is truthful and logical, but it did not address the bigger concern. And I I see students come in so practiced, like I didn't smoke the pot. I didn't smoke the pot. Like, okay, I can believe you there, but there were ten empty bottles in your like there's more to it. There are also other folks who at the table, the way they respond to those things. So Kat was very measured, but I see crying can get people a long way. The criers who are the traders, they usually go very, very far every season, every culture.

SPEAKER_07 35:10

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

And I think that we do that sometimes too in student conduct. We let crying affect our logic.

SPEAKER_07 35:18

That never worked on me, I have to say.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

Yeah, there are different types of crying, right?

SPEAKER_07 35:24

Yes. 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

So I bet I bet you had students who cried where you were just like, let's take a minute and then and then we'll keep going, as opposed to crying like as their shield. Like, that shield is not gonna work.

SPEAKER_07 35:42

And I never I honestly, you know, I I could think I knew why they were crying. I think some people cried because they were stressed out. I think some people cried because they thought they were getting off the the hook. Um either way, my response was always the same. I didn't keep tissues in my office. And that was as much for me. I said, there is a bathroom down the hall. Why don't you take a minute and you know, collect yourself and come back when you're ready to talk? I don't want to have a conversation with somebody when they are full on, you know, heaving or um having an emotional moment. Like who makes a good decision when you're in that kind of crisis? So that was always my MO.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

You know, that office had that little private bathroom.

SPEAKER_07 36:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Oh gosh, if every place had that. Because I think of many students where I gave them my Dean of Students office, and I was like, I'm gonna go out, I'll go out to the seating area and I'll I'll be ready when you are. And I just trusted, I didn't know if my wallet was in a minute.

SPEAKER_06 36:52

They're going through your files, changing guilty to not guilty, like a Ferris Burler situation.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

But if you had a little private place for them to compose themselves, the other deflection I see is anger, and that usually comes from the innocent people, but it is red as guilt. I'm thinking of Michael Rappaport. He was on one of the oh god, he just lives anger, he's just he sees red wherever he goes, and um he was suspicious from the very beginning for everybody because people I think of they think anger equals guilt.

SPEAKER_07 37:43

I think in practice, I have often thought of anger as a deflection and the a deflection of somebody who is defiant and who has done what they're being accused of and doesn't think that it's fair that they um that they've been caught or that they have there's a consequence associated with it, that they have to talk to somebody about it. I don't think I've ever thought of that the way I think about it on the show, which is people are angry because they be they're being accused of something they didn't do. So that's a disconnect for me between the show and what I remember as being a conduct officer, at least as you know, as I experienced having a conversation with somebody, I almost always assumed that they they had done it and that they were just angry that yeah, I was getting a phone call from their parents after after they left.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Yeah I I associate it with uh the school I worked at that did a lot. We did a lot of Title IX cases. Very few students report an assault compared to how many assaults happen. And I I started to think, and I would love to have this studied, that the ones who report have a certain personality type a lot where they they can get angry and they're not very likable. And I wonder if if predators see that like nobody's gonna believe her if she tells her story. Um, but there was a lot of anger in that and and boards do not like that. They want the victim to be victim-y, not to be fiery. And I I just I don't know if this is a fair comparison. I'd love to hear from listeners about this, but I just see on traders a lot where people who get angry get voted off. And that they have this thing, well, I'm not sure if you're a trader, you're just a really bad faithful. We don't like you. And how does that fit into our systems?

SPEAKER_07 40:03

Yeah, I think um I think about that a lot because it is it reminds me of a bell-shaped curve that I think a lot of what people expect is that middle behavior. It's what's comfortable for everybody. And when somebody is an outlier, they're too quiet or they're too loud, um, they become problematic. And I I've sat there and thought, gosh, I would put that person off too, even if I knew they were a faithful, because they are they're an annoyance, they're distracting from what I perceive as the game. Um but you know, I think our work is to expand what people think of as the norm. Like there should be room in the game for all types of people, even if somebody's annoying. You know, they deserve to be in the game, they deserve to be in higher education. Even if somebody is more quiet than we are comfortable with, they still deserve to have access to higher education or the game or whatever the metaphor is. So yeah, I it is, I think it's troubling that people are constantly being herded to this center where everybody emotes in a certain way or speaks in a certain way. I do I find it troubling that, you know, if you look at how people are voted off, it does seem that oftentimes the folks who are black, brown, queer tend to be voted off first. And I think it's because people are not able to step back from their assumptions and say, well, this person is acting weird, so they must be a traitor. Okay, well, how much of that is the cultural assumptions that you're bringing to the table? That you're seeing something that you're clocking as different and you're reading it as a traitor, it could just be a cultural difference that you have not yet experienced. Um, and the fact that it comes up every season, I want it to be a part of the conversation. I want somebody to go on and challenge people and say, the thing that we think that we're clocking as trader behavior is possibly a cultural norm. This person is loud because it is a part of their culture. This person is not interacting with you because it is not how they approach conflict in their culture. But instead of having that discussion, they get voted off. That is the only disappointment I have with the show, I think.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

But it is a mirror to hold up that hopefully we can talk about. I see that in uh reports we get about classroom behavior, where someone wants to police somebody who's not just completely sit down in your seat and hold your hands.

SPEAKER_07 42:49

And a lot of that I think also we haven't brought this piece into it, is um general ex generational expectations about what kind of behavior is appropriate in certain settings. And I do think that there are, you know, students coming up now through K-12 who are being taught by millennials and are used to engaging in a classroom in a way that's different than somebody who maybe has been in higher education teaching for 35 years and who learned from a baby boomer or a you know greatest generation person, and they have an idea in their head of what it means to be faculty and student. I do think so many schools are really good at developing faculty and having these conversations. But there are most certainly, I think, still instances where you're going to encounter a conflict between a student and a faculty member that is most likely based on generational expectations.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Oh, we lots to unpack there. And I think as people are listening to this, there are lots of nodding heads. Like, oh man. Yeah, we've got to get our heads around this.

SPEAKER_07 44:06

I had one more trader-related observation that I think is so fascinating. And it's how quickly, once they do the go around the table and decide who's a trader and who's a faithful, how quickly they establish an identity around what it means to be a faithful and how quickly they adopt, well, I'm a faithful. And there's a language around I'm a faithful. Here are the things I do that prove that I'm a faithful. It's almost like they're setting norms or they're adopting a set of norms. And it reminds me of those first couple days of class at the beginning of a semester. You throw a whole bunch of people into a space that don't know each other, and very quickly they start developing ideas of what is normative behavior in this place that we've never been before. Um and how quickly people can fall prey to I'm in this group and this is normal behavior, and I'm adopting this behavior because this is what all of the cool people do, or this is what all the people on the soccer team do, or this is what all of the folks who are homeschooled do. It becomes a new set of norms that just it blossoms out of nowhere, seemingly. So I I see it in the show. It's interesting to me. And I do wonder if it's still that present on a college campus that day one, I don't work on a residential campus anymore. So I think it's a little different. I would be curious to know if that is still at play for folks who live on a residential campus. I think of our values at the school I work at. Um, you know, it's mission-vision values. Those are the values I think most often that when we think about values, it's how do we as an employees interact with each other and students in the community. But I don't know if it's what we mean when we talk about what our students will look like when they've graduated from the school that I work at. Yeah. And I I think by and large, um if you just replaced employee with student, they make sense. But I don't know that I've ever taken a step back from that and thought about do these apply to students? And if we don't have values for our students, then how can they expect to understand what's expected of them? Or you know, we've got the code of conduct, we've got a student handbook, but I don't think we ever I'm trying to think, is there anything that says here's here are the things that we expect from students here, or here's what you can expect from us?

SPEAKER_02 46:51

That's where I and I love, oh my dean, he he has taken some of the language out of like build a sense of student community to just building a sense of shared community, or values are what you model, not what you enforce or right, and there are spoken values and there are unspoken values. How do you have a reckoning around that?

SPEAKER_07 47:17

Yes. I think about that a lot. You know, we talk about culture at work, but there's all always the undercurrent, the the subculture. And oftentimes I think that's a reaction to something that is not being fulfilled in the mission or in the values that exist. Uh you know, people either leave or there is an undercurrent of people who are like this. I don't believe in what is happening here, but I work here and here's what I believe in, and they find their people.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Yep. Their tribes. Kurt, this was amazing. I am so handy we could share.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

First of all, I love talking about the traders, but I I love looking at things and seeing inspiration for the work that we do, and this was super fun.

SPEAKER_07 48:10

I agree. If we did an online game, it would be fun if we did a trader's game sometime. Like, could we do that virtually?

SPEAKER_02 48:19

Oh, I let's continue that conversation. Yeah at the Ms. Behappy hour. We're gonna have breakout rooms, and I think one will be about like favorite TV shows or pop culture.

SPEAKER_07 48:32

Traders, Ms. Behavior style.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

Yeah. Oh, let's think how fun would that be?

SPEAKER_07 48:39

That would.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Thank you, listeners. We're so happy that you joined us, and we will see you next time on Ms. Behavior. Ms. Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan. Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. You can contact Ms. Behavior at Ms. BehaviorCollege at gmail.com. That's msbehaviorcollege at gmail.com.