Outcomes & Outfits: Student Conduct Practices That Slay

Samantha Collette promotes learning, respect and care in student conduct - all while slaying in kitten heels and flowy skirts. Her disarming style and strategies, in both community standards and student affairs fashion, live in a wide-open closet we can all borrow from. Listening to Sam, you can't help but recognize that kindness and curiosity aren't just trends. They are staples we should put on every morning to spark joy. 

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Theme music "Fuzzball Parade" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello and welcome back to the Ms. Behavior Podcast, the podcast for college student conduct professionals. My name is Colette.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

And I'm Kurt.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

We'll be your hosts for the next however long. We wanted to make a couple reminders to everybody. Our book club is coming soon. It's the Just Desserts and Dissertations Book Club virtually. You don't need to go anywhere except to Zoom and join us. If you'd like to register, all the information is in the podcast information or just follow us on social media. But our first dissertation out of the gate is Dr. Aaron Kaplan's How the Student Conduct Process Impacts Student Belonging. So if you're thinking about how to build community, increase retention on your campus, we think this is a great starter episode for the book club. And that's happening July 16th, followed by that same afternoon, the Ms. Be Happy Hour, where we want to just bring together community of conduct folks to not talk about work. We've designed it in a way that should be pretty welcoming and fun for introverts or extroverts. If you're new to the field or if you have people just dipping their toes in who want to meet other conduct folks, I find conduct folks super cool. And we think you will too. All the registration and information is right here with the podcast information. All right. Kurt, am I forgetting anything?

SPEAKER_03 1:50

No, I am super excited for these breakout rooms, though. I need some new TV recommendations. Um, you know, as we talked about last week, I think my entire TV queue has been filled with the traders. So uh I need something to diversify.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

I thought a breakout room for folks with pets too might be kind of fun.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

I BYOP, bring your own pet.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

And for folks who are super brave, uh, we're gonna have a special guest at the book club, and that is a reporter from Inside Higher Ed who wants to learn more about student conduct and our research. So we will probably have a breakout room for her to interview folks and just enlarge the community. But today we are bringing back one of our favorite guests from this year, and that is Samantha Collette, our fashion and higher ed expert. Welcome, Sam.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Thanks so much for having me back. I'm so happy to be here, especially now that it's warm. It's summer. We have a little bit of a break. Yeah, it's great to see you guys again.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

What are you wearing today? Because it's a vibe. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Thank you. Um, I'm wearing one of my like classic mock necks. I love to be in blue. I love to be in a mock neck. Blue mock neck. And then I'm wearing a maxi like tie-dye blue skirt. It's like this is the and I'm at my house, so I'm currently in my slippers, but I was wearing my geals earlier, my jean heels. Um, and then one of my best friends got me this necklace in Spain. So that's the vibe today.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

I've never even heard of this. I think I need, I mean, I've heard of Jeggins, now geals. This is new.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yes, I love them. Um, the geals are a big hit. But the last time I was here, I had red hair, and now it's like kind of strawberry blonde. So we have a fun new summer vibe.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

It is gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yes. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

I didn't know what to do with hair when I had it, so this is my punishment for uh uh my inability to style it when it existed. So kudos to you all for doing all the things you do with your hair.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Kurt, you've got a good look going on. And look at you in color today.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

I know I think we went on the opposite end of the fashion spectrum today. You you went with a very like fashion forward Johnny Cash kind of situation. What did you call it? A Johnny Cash kind of situation.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Johnny Cash.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Yeah, Johnny Cash were all black. I don't that's my only Yeah. Yeah. I was feeling summery today. It's like a little classic summer vibe.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

This was the top that you two inspired uh when I was getting ready for the orchestra concert.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

I love that. Any like like halter, I'm obsessed with it. So you're slamming.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Me too. And uh this was an old suit. I was giving away all my business suits uh to the career closet on my old campus, and I couldn't give up the coat. I just oh god, I love a good suit jacket.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

I say never give up a coat because even if you feel like it's out of style, it's coming back. I think I'm old enough now to have regretted giving away like denim jackets that I had back in the 90s, and then again in 2010. I'm like, I should have kept them, did not keep them. They they always come back.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

80s shoulder pads now. Oh, yes. Yeah, oh golly, it's like a football linebacker. Sam, what's in the what's in your summer wardrobe right now?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

It's a lot of like long skirts, um tank tops. I have a bunch of like fun like sandal heels. I'm trying to get some more, but I have like a very, to bring back a word from last time, Y2K pair of little like kitten flip-flop sandals that are like a fun pattern. I love those. Um, but yeah, I'm trying to go flowy because it has been very humid here in Massachusetts, and anything that is stuck to my body, I'm not having it.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

So you said kitten heel flip-flops?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Yeah. Yeah, they're like they're like this like little teeny tiny heel, but then they're like flip-flops. They're quite ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

My only experience with kitten heels is from RuPaul's drag race where Michelle Vassage reads people to filth for wearing kitten heels. So I'm I'm assuming that a kitten heel flip-flop is a whole different situation. I I'm gonna need to see some pictures.

unknown 6:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I will send pictures of those as well. Kitten heels are very trendy right now. Okay. Like to read for filth, my goodness. No, like a lot of like the corporate office girlies are loving a kitten heel. And dare I say, the kitten heel is actually more uncomfortable than a regular heel.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Oh. I'm more likely to trip. I'd rather wear a higher heel. I'd feel more balanced somehow. So I appreciate your risk taking and your kitten heel. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Clude, I'm thinking back to um the early 2000s and your workplace guitar. And I feel like you were always like showcasing a very high heel.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah. Oh, I love the day of the platform that when the 70s platforms came back. That was Y2K era. And now, Sam, you have inspired every one of my clothing searches now, stars with Y2K.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Oh my gosh, I love it. No, it's so fun. And I mean, during the times of Y2K, I was but a wee child. But now I also think about it as like bringing like my inner child back into my wardrobe just makes me so happy. So whenever I see Y2K, I'm like, yes, it's like lip smackers, lip gloss, a cute little heel, a little purse. I'm just so happy.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I love the velvety, like it just feels so feminine. And it's a they're usually um flattering.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Now, when you were on, I was not familiar last time. I was not familiar with the whole Y2K trend as a genre. And I think Colette, I shared with you I went to Portland, Oregon for a conference and got to do a lot of thrifting while I was there. And the first store I walked into, there was a whole Y2K section. And I was like, oh, that's a whole vibe. It's a thing. There it is. So yeah, that was a new thing I learned this year.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

If I say business casual, Sam, how does your body react to that? Is that a positive or a like ick?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

No, it's not an ick, and that's for sure. No, I think that's great. Like that's a how a lot of my colleagues dress. I think business casual also just gives so much room for like personalizing what you're wearing. Because there are certainly days that I have to go like full business at work when I'm doing my hearings, but otherwise, like I love to do business casual, like you know, cute little trousers, fun shirt, fun earrings, you know me. So yeah, I definitely know ick.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Do you feel like students understand what business casual is?

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Um unsure because I have seen students go to like some of the career fairs on campus that like encourage students to do business casual. And um as myself and my friends would say, we see some cheekage. So I'm not I think students um are focusing more on the casual word of business casual. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

I I think I have cause to be somebody's first interaction with the business casual world in my job. We will have events where we want to invite students to interact with a board member or um local politicians and elected officials. And I have just started sending a picture of like here's the group shot from last year, because the first year I said it's business casual. Somebody interpreted that as a mixture of both business and casual. So it was khaki pants and then a sweatshirt with a ripped neck draped over the shoulder. It was adorable, but I felt bad for her because everybody else had like, oh, I have a button-down shirt and khakis on. She was both business and casual.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

She went full mullet in the way she was.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

Yes, it was mullet.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

No, and I like the example though. The examples are needed.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

The big tech school I worked at on when they would bring the career fair folks in gosh, these students, they they probably owned one suit and it never fit them right. And it was so adorable to me. I just I didn't want it to change. I like this is they're gonna get jobs as you know, computer coders, and they're gonna be wearing t-shirts and jeans, and that is the uniform for them. But for this one day a year, pull out their ill-fitting suit and they're just so sweet.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

I think a dream job, me, I wouldn't want to be stationed at our clothing closet on campus and just give fashion advice to students. Like, this is uh maybe not the best cut for you. Let's move over to this section and look at this instead. Because I love that we have free uh clothing available to students, but I also want them like, hey, what is this just for every day? Are you going for a job interview? You know, they don't get any of the the context. We talk about wraparound uh support services. I think fashion advice should be included in that as well. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

I love that Kurt.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Oh unique to our college, you know, we could we could pilot the program. I'll be accepting grants for this. Uh you know, just uh anybody's writing them.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

When we had Queer Prom on one of our campuses, uh I remember a student going and was so excited to find this sequined dress. That would be a perfect time to to bring out the the freestylist service. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

That is so fun. My university also does like a free career closet type thing, and they sent out a call for donations this year, and it was like everyone and their mother, their grandmother, their aunt, their uncle all donated stuff, which is great, but then they were like, okay, we actually need to like start pushing some of this stuff. And so they had like a bunch of different sessions that folks would come, and some of the people in like the Dina Student's office and the career development office were like helping people pick stuff out that would fit them correctly. So yeah, it's like a big thing right now, and I think it's wonderful because to buy some of these things new is so costly, and like students don't have the money to go buy a $200, you know, suit set. So I'm happy that it's being recycled through community means.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Our clothing closet started as a gender-affirming clothing closet, um, and it has since expanded to be for everybody, and it also focuses on career pieces. So if you're going for a job interview or if you need clothes for work, um but I love that we have changed the focus and expanded it. Uh, because I do think that there were students who were uncomfortable, like knowing where it was that oh, somebody's going back there because they are looking for gender-affirming um clothing. And now it's just it's multi-purpose. It's also right next to our food pantry. So you could be going back there for anything. Hopefully you're coming out with a good find.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Any advice for back to school shopping, Sam? Since we're talking about finding good bargains or just, I don't know, getting your fall vibe on.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Yeah, I mean, something that I've been doing, truthfully, is like I try to find something and then find it in like multiple colors because it's made getting ready for work so much easier to know that it's like, okay, like I love the way this top fits me. I have it in a couple different colors, we're good to go. Like I was saying before, like a mock neck, because I know that I can pair it with, you know, a skirt on a more casual day, or I can do it with like a pantsuit when I need to be more dressed up. So I think just really focusing on the staples in, you know, top bottom. And then if you're gonna get a little excited, I always say do it with like your shoe or your bag. I actually think there's a lot of room for students to carry around their stuff in a bag. I just got like a big Kate Spade bag for work, and I feel so fabulous every day. So it's like if students are trying to get away from like the clunky backpack, find some really cool big bag. I even think with like some the Y2K trends right now, like the big slouchy bags are seen in. So I would say stick to what makes you feel really comfortable on your body, and then do like a little peek of the shoe and a really cool bag.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

I recently transitioned away from a backpack. I used to have a crossbody and I went to a backpack, and it's a little fancy on uh Poshmark, and I love it. Um now I have a little internal struggle periodically about whether or not it is pushing me into a more feminine region. My partner said it looked like a giant purse, and I don't care at this point. It carries everything I need to, and it is not throwing off my back at all. So I love it. Poshmark find though.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Love that. One of my male co uh co-workers just got this really nice, like black coach briefcase because he was sick of a backpack. Yep. So I think it's time. Like, no matter what the gender is, like, get a sleigh work bag, school bag, and you're the away with backpacks, away. That's my full advice.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

That's our soundbite right there. Away with backpacks. It's funny though, I you know, say what you will about the algorithm. I searched men's tote bag, and like that night I just started getting so many cool guys in my TikTok feed showing their tote bags that they had. And I was like, okay, so it's not just me, it is a thing, and I felt more comfortable then. It felt more socially normative than uh it did the day before.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

So on this episode with Sam where we talked about uh my husband's man purse. I'll just add, because he proudly calls it his man purse, but he bought the one in military green. But it is so handy. Yes. Yeah, totally. It's perfect.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Um, do you have any tips for secondhand shopping, Sam?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Something that at least helps me get through secondhand shopping quicker is really focusing on the colors or patterns that I'm looking for in any of the departments. Because when I would go with my mom in high school, she wanted to look at like everything and we'd be there forever, which can be fun. But like now that I'm an adult and I'm like, I don't have four hours to spend in a thrift store. I always go in knowing like, okay, you know, this is a specific item that I need or this is a specific color that I'm looking for or a pattern, and it makes it go by so much quicker. Cause like when you see those huge racks of like everything, but if I'm only looking for green, then it like weeds everything out much quicker. Also looking for like certain fabrics, like there are plenty of things that I just like hate and don't like. So I think just like anything that could add to your game plan is gonna make secondhand shopping like a lot more efficient.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

And are you strictly in person or do you use like Poshmark, the Real Real, or the ShopCoodwill app?

SPEAKER_00 18:15

I use Depop for my secondhand stuff.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

And that when my friends and I get sucked into the Depop rabbit hole, like it's really dangerous. Because I have found some really cute stuff on there. I get nervous to buy shoes. One of my friends has a lot of really cute boots from Depop, but I mostly use it for like some of my like work clothes, um, or like trying to find something that I love already in a different color. But I have a lot of luck on Depop.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

I've been obsessed with the Shop Goodwill app recently, which I didn't know was a thing. It came across my TikTok, and there's a lot of cool vintage like watches and um men's rings and just staple pieces. Like I have a whole search save for Ralph Lauren stuff. Like I'm always looking for a comfy sweater that I can dry clean and you know, have that be part of my my staple then. So but the prices are pretty amazing, they're hard to beat.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

I have not heard of that before, so that might be a new dangerous app that I'm looking at. That sounds really cool.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Somebody apparently um I didn't know I I mean I've noticed it at our local thrift shop. The goodwills are pulling some of the higher-end stuff, so you're not finding as much of it in person anymore because they've moved it to an online platform. Um, and the only thing you gotta watch for is the shipping. Uh that can be a little steep, but there are penny shipping options as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

So cool.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

It's worth checking out. I also feel like it used to be the case that you could find better stuff at TJ Maxx and Marshall's. Like Colette, I remember shopping with you in person a couple times in and there was like high-end like formal wear. And now it's just it doesn't seem as great where I am.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

It was from Marshall Fields, I think. Now it's just its own stuff, yeah. Sadly.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

You're not gonna find a Gucci very often at a TJ Mac or Marshall's TJ Mac. TJ Maxx.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Interestingly enough, so I live in Framingham and the TJX headquarters is in Framingham. And so our TJ Maxx and Marshalls tends to have some better stuff because they'll bring the folks from the headquarters over there. So we have like a whole designer section at our TJ Maxx. So they have like Gucci shoes and like all of the higher brand things. But I'm like, when I'm going into TJ Maxx and Marshalls, I'm like looking to get a deal. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, Gucci shoes. And then I'm like, wait, I no, but I still don't have $700.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Sam, I work exclusively on Zoom now with students. And I'm realizing I I just need a refresh. For a while, I'm like, everything is new to them because I am new at this job. But now I I'm it's feeling really stale. And I wonder if you have any tips for those of us who are remote or who do a lot of like camera work.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Okay. Um I really, yeah, I might need to think on that. Like I do not do a lot of my work over Zoom. I'm largely in person. I'm really only meeting with folks over Zoom in our like break periods, but I don't know. That's a really like good question that I would have to think on.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

I was gonna ask if you should invest in a shoe cam, because that could be a game changer.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

That could be a game changer.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

I could. Or put the shoes on a little. Thing behind me.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Very Carrie Bradshaw.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Well, I was wondering maybe it's less a fashion question than a how do you make yourself as approachable. And because I I have this backdrop with the library that most people think is real, even though it's pretty obviously fake. You can see the little wrinkle right there. But um but then I don't want to wear a business suit and look like an executive coach or something. And a lot of days I'll just wear my college's t-shirt as my uniform. I'm always wondering like what am I trying to communicate and what's the best way to do that?

SPEAKER_00 22:44

That is tough. Um I love you know stuff like this or just like a really comfy blouse, because then I feel like the students are still sort of taking me more seriously, but I'm like comfortable in my home. Um because I know like even when I've done Zoom interviews, even like for job positions or like meeting with folks over Zoom when I was a student, because I was a student in the COVID era, which was scary. Um whenever I would see people like look really casual, I'd kind of be like, Do you care? Like, do you like so I think it's always good to like kind of zhuzh it up somehow. But I will say I really like your background because something that always irks me is when people do Zoom meetings and they always have um it like blurred or it's like super obviously fake. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yeah, I agree. I'd rather see a messy room than something blurred out in the back.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Yeah, like something. And I you know, like when I meet with students over Zoom, they're like in, you know, their room at home that like maybe they share with someone. Like they don't care. And I think they'd just rather see that the staff members in like a real space. I think that also helps build trust too, because if it's blurred out, it's like what fictional land are you hanging out in right now? You know?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

I'm glad that's very affirming to hear that.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

I think there's still room for a nicely curated background in everybody's house that they can use for online meetings.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

I think when we saw you, you were about to launch your lemons campaign, and I saw some pictures from it, and I wanted to hear that go as well as it like it sounded like it had a lot of potential for great communication with students. And maybe you could explain what that is for folks who are just tuning in.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yes. So when I first got hired to work in community standards, immediately my first thought was like, I need to do something with lemons. Like I just like that was an itch in my brain. Um and so this past April, I was thinking about, you know, ways that we can proactively get in front of students, but also having it be like really low risk, low stress, not a big lift for students to engage. And so we did like a little tabling campaign that we labeled um like make lemons from lemonade. Uh nope, make lemonade from lemons. It goes reverse. Um, make lemonade from lemons. Um, you know, because I think that when students come through the conduct system, it's like this big fat lemon of like, I don't want to be here. It's literally like lemon juice in the cut that I have open right now of trying to think about my mistakes and take accountability. But really good things can come from it too. You know, I've definitely had a ton of interactions with students who were like, this really sucked, but now I've learned this really good lesson, and I'm so much better prepared to go on to the next thing. So uh myself and then my intern Maddie, and I know we were talking about her earlier, I love her dearly. We hung out outside of our student center on the patio, and we could not have gotten better weather. It was the second Tuesday in April, and it was so sunny and it was like warm outside. Like students were just so happy to be outside. And we stood out there for a couple hours around lunchtime, and we were just like handing out lemonades and we were handing out little lemon stress balls that have like motivational sayings on them, like make it happen. And students loved it. It was so good to just say hi to students, and we didn't feel the need to like launch into a whole big speech about what community standards is. But, you know, they saw our name on the tablecloth, they got to see, you know, my face and Maddie's face, just as a way that, you know, if in the future they do have like a hearing with me or they hear the name community standards, hopefully that way they can think back and be like, oh, that's the lady that gave me the lemonade, instead of, oh, that's the lady that's gonna kick me out of school. So yeah, the lemons are kind of like my little punchy tagline, but it's really all about just trying to get students a little less afraid to utilize the office. But it was fantastic. It went so well. Over 140 students stopped by. So yeah, it was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

It was fun. I got to talk to Maddie. I think you had put out a blast just saying, I've got an intern who's kind of restorative practices curious and wondered if anybody would talk to them. And so I got to meet Maddie, and it was fun just hearing things through the lens. Because right now the only students I meet with are people who are in trouble or got in trouble, and now we still have a relationship. But for Maddie, the big concern was about students who just keep doing it. Like they've gone to student conduct and then they and then they did something again. And I it was good for me to hear that because for me, I'm like, yep, this is about the long game, but she doesn't have a long game, she's graduating in a few months, and I I just thought that was interesting. I don't know if you have any perspective on on those dichotomies.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Yeah, so Maddie was an RA for three years. Um, she's also in like a leadership capacity, even within that. So she had additional responsibilities. But whenever we'd meet, we'd be talking about like policy and trends and her vision for you know, student staff enforcing and working with the policies that community standards, rights, and uphold. And one of her biggest concerns was like RA burnout tied to students continuing to repeat behavior and just sort of thinking about like how do you get in front of it? How do you make it click for students to stop and realize the impact they're having? You know, because like a lot of students just think about like, well, what does this mean for me? And if I don't care if I'm put on disciplinary probation, then what does it matter? I'm just gonna do it again. And so, you know, the conversations I was having with Maddie were more about like restorative justice and trying to frame it to students about like, no, actually, it's a lot more than you, and even though you got caught using marijuana, that actually impacted all of the folks in your hallway because then you know they couldn't focus on anything because it smelled. So she was really great about providing that like fresh, current student perspective on university challenges, especially just since like the culture is changing so much. Like right now, it's just like this repeated marijuana use, whereas a lot of colleges it used to be alcohol, but with alcohol, it's kind of like, well, you do it in the room and it doesn't really impact your neighbors. But now with marijuana, it's like that makes the whole community smell. So really just like shifting the language with folks.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

I'm curious about your experience with um mentoring an intern and what that was like for you. Could you speak to that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Having Maddie was one of the best parts of the last year for me, truly. Like I cannot speak higher of her. I wasn't even really supposed to have an intern. It's not built into my office or anything like that. But I got so lucky because I was doing an RA resource fair and Maddie came up to my table and she was like, I would like to be your intern when that happened. And I was like, I think so. Um, and my boss said no problem with it. And so working with her was so fantastic. She reminds me so much of how I was, you know, when I was a student and the experiences and the things that I wanted to get out of being an RA. So it was just so awesome to be able to watch her grow and just like have someone to help me. Like I really feel like a lot of the programs we had over the last year wouldn't have been as successful if like she wasn't providing really good insight for it. And do you think you'll do that again next year? I would love to. It's hard because, like I said, since it's not built into my office, we don't have like guaranteed funding for anyone. So Maddie ended up, you know, it we were so lucky because career development offered some like grant funding. So she was approved to get some of that. But I just I feel terrible asking students to work for free. Don't do that. Like you're contributing valuable work. I would like to be able to compensate you for it. Um, and she also did get like internship credits for it, but I would love to have an intern again. Um, I really need to find some sort of like sustainable funding for that to be an opportunity. But the route that I'm sort of going about it this upcoming year is to try to do like more like mini sessions or mini programs with like RAs and student leaders to say if you'd like to collaborate with student conduct, let's do like one or two programs together with an area of interest, and that way I'll still kind of have students interacting in that sense with the office. But I don't think I'm gonna be able to have someone like the full year unless we luck out the exact same way again.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

I'm just curious, I think um we had a discussion about interns at work uh recently, and I think there was a slight misconception that this is just you know free work or or low-cost work, and not a lot of discussion or as much as I wanted around the mentorship aspect of it. And uh, this isn't just somebody that sits in an office outside of your office and and does work that you're doing, you invest time and effort into this as well. How how much of the time did you feel, how much of your week did you feel like you spent mentoring and engaging with with Maddie?

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Yeah, so of course we were engaging in you know big projects and programs and things, but things, but every single week we had an hour one-on-one that I would just talk to her about like what is like going on for you right now? Like, how are your residents? How is that impacting you? How is your grad school search going? Um, because she's trying to figure out like, do I jump into a master's degree, a PhD program, do I go work full-time? Like, she's navigating all of that. So a lot of our conversations were about, you know, are you gonna be able to get an assistantship if you want to do a master's program? Where have you actually been looking? So it was a lot of that and just kind of figuring out like what her next steps could be. And then some days it was just like, you know what? I just want to chat right now because I've had a really difficult, tough, busy week, and we're just gonna talk about books and it's gonna be great. So I got really close to Maddie, and you know, I saw her grow a ton over the year, and I definitely think it was also a lot of mentoring. You know, we do like some reflection activities to think about like where is our energy going right now? Where can we sort of fill our cup like a little bit more? She's not just like some student worker who's, you know, doing whatever because I need her to. It's like I want to shape her because she's interested in the things that I'm interested in, and she has so much awesome potential. So it was it was great working with her, and and we got to celebrate at the end of the year, and it was great.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

So cool.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

A big takeaway from me when we met the first time was the conversation we had about warm handoffs. And I don't know if you remember you told a story about meeting with a student and then referring them to a colleague, and you said, don't forget to ask them about ice skating lessons. One thing is just practical and get them to follow through and make the appointment with that person that you've referred them to. But uh, I've been trying to think of other creative ways to increase that warmth potential. So I don't know if you have other examples of that or if there, I don't know if there's a brainstorming opportunity here to just think of how we could infuse this in our training or make it happen on purpose.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Yeah, so sort of kind of related, but I think there is a handoff involved. When students on our campus are found responsible for like an alcohol or a drug violation, they get referred over to the wellness department. And it is a sanction, like they're required to meet with someone. But the way we're currently doing it is they get their hearing resolution letter and it says, contact wellness, like here's the email. And it doesn't feel like the warmest of handoffs, and our compliance is like so-so with it, and the folks in that department are like literally some of the nicest people that we have on this campus. So something that we're trying to pilot for next year is increasing the language around next steps and compliance. And so I've been developing more of like a handout that students can get at the end of a hearing. And you know, I always tell them like I can't guarantee this is what your sanction's gonna be. We have to finish up the investigation. But at least this way, there's more of an explanation as to like, what does a meeting with wellness education actually mean for you? Oh, who is this person that you might have to meet with? And so I'll be training my hearing officers this summer about like if you're meeting with someone and it kind of seems like they're gonna be found responsible for alcohol or drugs, saying, you know, I think you're gonna have a meeting with Pam. Here's how you'd contact her. This is what the meeting's gonna be, and you'll have about three weeks to do it. And by giving them that information up front instead of at the bottom of an email, I think it'll just make it feel like just a lot easier to approach or a lot more human to approach. So I'm hoping that goes well.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

I love the idea. I'm even picturing you could put Pam's picture and a little bio. Pam's from this state, but went to this school. Like it's not anything that would be like, oh, I'm from the East Coast too, or a few hobbies or like things that make like Pam likes baking and horses and log box on the beach.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

That's funny. But for real, like just humanizing that whole process. We did that one year with our conduct board members. We made a little website like this is Sam, and Sam likes fashion, and it's from some because we're like, we're hoping students will see this and realize everyone's a real person.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

I feel like people have this image, especially of conduct, that it's like we're like these evil trolls who are gonna like cast them far, far away. And it's like, no, we're just people who don't want you to keep drinking and breaking stuff.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

There's a lot in the dissertation we're using for the book club. There's a lot of information about that where students are reporting anecdotally kind of things like that that their hearing officers did that either made them feel more comfortable and like they were just talking human to human, or if it was very hierarchical. So it really does matter.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Yeah, it's huge. I think, especially since one of the biggest goals, at least for me with student conduct, is that students learn something. And I think if they're just so scared the whole conversation, they're not gonna learn anything. They're probably just gonna like black out and try to get through it.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

But in coming to them from a place of just like understanding and like being a human, they're gonna be like, oh, okay, that kind of makes sense, or at least we hope.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

And even colleague to colleague, to set that up to make the handout or to make the handoff, we're all gonna learn things about each other. Like, oh my gosh, I didn't know you did that. And that could enrich just the colleague-to-colleague relationship that we're modeling for students.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Definitely. I will say I feel so lucky. The place that I work, like my all of my coworkers, I feel like, are my friends. Like I go to work every day and I'm like, yay, I get to hang out with my friends now. Uh, which is great because then I truly feel like when I'm handing over a student to someone, like I have trust that they genuinely are in good hands. Um, because I truly know who this person is. You know, no one's just like, oh, I see you sometimes. Like, I I really know a lot about my coworkers and who they are as people, and it makes, you know, my life so much more enjoyable. And I think the students really do see that too. We've been hiring for like a bunch of different positions this summer, and it's so nice because we all get to like gush about each other, but also like people are recognizing like, oh, like this seems like a really good place to work. So anyway, you're both invited anytime. Come on over. Come on over.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

For a trip.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Yes. But I think to the comment the comment you had made about students being, you know, it's students seem to take us seriously. I think you can be friendly with students, but the in them taking you seriously is so much more about like you knowing what you're doing. You know, like I don't ever think a student's not gonna take me seriously because I talk about my cat, my dog, ice skating. I think it's really about when it gets down to like here are the violations, here's the report. I think being an expert there is what makes them take you seriously. So both things can be true.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

I wonder if we changed out the words take me seriously with trust me.

unknown 40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

I just want students to trust me. And would that encapsulate everything you just said about uh trusting that I'm competent? Uh it's everything. ASCA is uh getting ready for um folks to apply to present at conferences, and some years the application is very focused on it. They have like seven learning outcomes. I would love for Sam to do a presentation on it, the warmth needed for learning to happen, and that might not address one of those seven learning outcomes, and yet it might be the most important thing somebody learns.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

I would love to present.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah, I think you should submit something about. I mean, there's so many things. The warm handoff, but also the warm welcome.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yeah. I don't know if I mentioned this at all in the episode I was on last time, but I am sort of fortunate in a sense because the students that I meet with check in at the Dean of Students' office, but my office is actually like all the way at the end of the hallway. And so I get to use the hallway time as like relationship building. Because it's like it would be so awkward if they were just like following me down this long hallway. So I use that time to be like, tell me how your day has been so far. What's been the highlight of your week? Tell me about your major. How did you pick that? Like, what do you have going on? And then that way, as soon as we get into my office, we can kind of continue that conversation so it doesn't then feel like we're starting when the door closes. So we can continue. And then I'm always like, and you know, I could talk to you about being a psych major all day, but we have business to get to, and then they go, Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

I love that moment though when you know, like, okay, readiness has been established now, and you can easily like, oh, I I know I have to get you out of here, but I'm so grateful for for you having this conversation with me.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

I feel like there's a broader conversation about just um authenticity and you know, to what degree can you bring your whole self to work and be seen as a whole person and not just as somebody who has put on a persona for a hearing or or work. I think about you know, some of the best leaders I've worked with are they are who they are in every setting. There is not a meeting version and a public version and a private version. They're just themselves. And I think students pick up on the inauthenticity exceptionally well. So I'm sure it's off-putting to get into a you know, the long walk down the hall without a discussion. When does that ever happen? Like you just met somebody and then you're not gonna say anything to them for two minutes while you're walking. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Uh I want to call your session the green mile.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

The green mile.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Reinventing the green mile. It can be green because it's growth. Sure. So many metaphors. What are you most excited about for the new year? Sam. Are you have you even had a chance to transition into thinking about the fall?

SPEAKER_00 44:06

I have. I've just started putting together some training sessions for my hearing officers. I'm thinking about my goals for the summer, my goals for the year. And we've had like a lot of fire safety concerns. And that feels like a bummer, but something that I'm actually really looking forward to is establishing a much better working relationship with the city fire department. I think we're really lacking in that area. And we have an excellent relationship with like our police department. And, you know, if we can have a really great working relationship with those first responders, I'd love it for it to be everyone. Because I don't want our firefighters to come to campus and be like, oh, the students did XYZ again. Um, I really want them to feel like we are trying to collaborate with them. And so I'm really excited to see what that relationship can be like because I think it'll benefit them. I think it'll benefit the students too. I my dream is to do one of the programs where like the firefighters come and they like light a fake dorm room on fire and they're like, but it would have been better had you not covered your smoke detector. I want to like something kind of fun. Um yeah, so I'm I'm really excited to see where that partnership goes this year.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

I think Maddie was filling me in because I was intrigued by that when you told us about the covered smoke detectors. Um, and I was like, what is that about? And it was such a variety, like hair tools, um, aerosols, or perfumes. That there was a whole bunch of different things getting to the root of it. Like there are a lot of different roots of it.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is marijuana use, but you know, the hearing officers meet with the students, and sometimes it is just like, oh, I wanted to light my candle. I wanted to light incense, or you know, a lot of girls who are doing their hair or they have a room that there's four of them and they're constantly getting ready. So they cover the smoke detector because they don't want to get in trouble for the fire alarm going off. Um, but then it goes off anyway, or someone does like a health and safety and we find it, and a covered smoke detector is a much bigger deal than you trying to get ready, you know, doing your hair. And so sometimes I meet with students who have done this multiple times and they're on the verge of being dismissed from housing. And I'm like, hey girl, I know you're just trying to slay, but by covering your smoke detector, you're really putting a lot of people's lives in danger. Because I always tell them, you know, like if the fire department comes in and they see, you know, you've got all your products out, you've got the curling iron out, the hairdryer, they're gonna be like, okay, and they're just gonna reset it and they're gonna walk out. But, you know, if you're doing your hair, you put the curling iron down, you know, it's worst case scenario, it catches on the towel that's next to it, and then your smoke detector is covered. Now the whole hallway's in danger because you know the sprinklers aren't gonna be activated right away. And really just trying to reframe it to them of like, I know that you did not have malicious intent, but we have to think about, you know, the next five steps of how this can really escalate. But yeah, huge issue. So I'd I'd love to get in front of it this year.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Yeah, I'd love to hear back with how that goes. That is it's one of the few things that I really try to get serious. Like I just oh, I need you to understand why this one is big. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Because that can impact about like, you know, if the building's 400 people, that one thing can very quickly impact all 400 of those people.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

We have a guest coming on that was at Seton Hall the year they had the fire. It now it's been 25 years. I can't believe how fast it went, but um, three people died and 50 students were hospitalized uh for a prank fire. And it just I mean, they're still devastated by it 25 years later. Like it it shapes everything they they do. Oh no, this is one of those episodes we need a um a moment of levity.

SPEAKER_03 48:20

Something funny.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

I'll bring out the dog, I'll bring out the dog. Oh, please, yes, please, Winnie. Okay, oh baby.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

Oh, hello Winnie.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Oh, she said, why did you wake me up from my nap? Those chihuahua ears are too.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

Oh my goodness. And the is that a bow type?

SPEAKER_00 48:46

What is Yeah, she has a big flower collar.

SPEAKER_03 48:49

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

But she loves to get dressed. I'll have to send you guys pictures of that too. Her raincoat just came in.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Oh no, that's too good. What a little sweet pea.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Oh my Yeah, she's so cute. Um, Kurt, I think you were gonna ask how old is she? She's three.

unknown 49:09

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Cutie.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Adorable.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

She's a whole 12 pounds.

SPEAKER_03 49:16

That is a perfect size dog.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Perfect. Yep, and she goes in her little purse and she has a little car seat. She goes everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

So Zen, too. Just taking it on.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Her little feet are on my desk right now. That's why my computer keeps moving.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

Adorable.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Look at the early dude. How does Winnie get along with Let me try to remember the cat? Peaches? No. Peaching related to Peach.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

It is. It is Peaches, and they don't. Oh no. Yeah. Peach is a diva, and she doesn't really like that there's another critter in the house. And Winnie doesn't like Winnie most of the time doesn't even really interact with her. Um, but there there are some roommate conflicts, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Some good opportunity for shuttle diplomacy, I think, in this relationship. Any sanctions yet?

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Um, air jail.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Sam, thanks for coming back. Of course, thanks for having me. I think we're gonna need to have you come on before the February conference. Yes, definitely. Sounds good. All right. Good luck to everybody as you start your uh school years, and we'll see you next time on Ms. Behavior. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

And the little licks too.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Oh. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

All right. Ms. Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan. Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from NCompotech.com. You can contact Ms. Behavior at Ms. Behavior College at gmail.com. That's msbehaviorcollege at gmail.com.