Love What You Do
Welcome to Love What You Do
The podcast that puts joy, purpose, and people at the heart of work.
In each episode, we dive into human-first stories from the world of leisure and hospitality, shining a light on the brilliant people and brands doing things differently. From career journeys and inspiring brand stories to honest conversations about CVs, interviews, AI, brand culture, and the evolving world of recruitment, we explore what it really means to love what you do.
Because when work feels good, life gets even better.
Love What You Do
The Dan & Daniel Show: Unveiling the Secrets of Hospitality Hiring
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Unlock the secrets to standing out in hospitality, retail, and leisure talent markets with insights from recruitment experts Daniel Brown and Dan Razavi.
This episode reveals the surprising reality shifts in candidate behavior, employer expectations, and what truly separates the top brands in attracting and retaining talent today.
You’ll discover why the traditional CV is nearing obsolescence and how AI, storytelling, and transparency are reshaping recruitment strategies. Daniel and Dan share straightforward tips on crafting tailored applications, why authenticity beats polish, and how to balance security with flexibility in a fast-changing industry.
If you’re a job seeker feeling overwhelmed or an employer struggling to find the right fit, this episode is your blueprint for success. Learn how to navigate competitive markets, make meaningful connections, and develop a compelling employer brand that attracts the best.
Don’t miss these game-changing insights, perfect for talent contenders and hiring managers alike, looking to adapt and thrive in the new era of hospitality and retail staffing.
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Follow us on TikTok, Instagram, and LinkedIn 👉 @Leisurejobsgb for behind-the-scenes, job inspo, and a few laughs along the way.
And when you’re ready to make your next move, head to leisurejobs.com, the home of great jobs, so you can Love What You Do
Welcome to Love What You Do, the podcast serving up stories, insights, and a few behind-the-scenes laughs. We're your hosts, I'm Ola G Day.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Louisa. We've teamed up with the crew at Leisure Jobs, the UK's go-to platform for job seekers and employers in hospitality, leisure, travel, and retail.
SPEAKER_02With over 600 brands showcasing their roles. So if you're hiring, applying, or just having a scroll at 2am, contemplating a change, Leisure Jobs is the place for you.
SPEAKER_00We'll be bringing you real stories, bold opinions, and big ideas from the people helping to shape the industry. From restaurants to resorts, gyms to guest houses, and everywhere in between.
SPEAKER_02Whether you're building a team, searching for your next role, or just here for inspo, this is the space with curious minds and passionate people.
SPEAKER_00So grab a cupper, plug in and get ready for some conversations that might just challenge how you think about work and remind you why you should love what you do.
SPEAKER_02Hello, hello, and welcome back to Love What You Do, the podcast where we get into the stories, we get into the people, we get into the conversations that are shaping hospitality, retail, and leisure. Usually on this podcast, which we are always excited to do, is we speak we speak to brilliant brands and clients within the leisure jobs world. But today we are flipping the script a little bit. I'm joined by two people who spend a lot of time speaking to employers, spotting patterns, hearing what clients are struggling with, and I guess really understanding what's really going on in the talent market right now in that space of hospitality, leisure, and retail. So today we're going, we are getting into recruitment, competition, flexibility, AI, candidate behaviour, and what it actually takes to stand out in hospitality and retail leisure right now. So welcome to the podcast, Daniel Brown and Dan Rizavi. Welcome to Love What You Do. Hey, thank you for having us. Yeah, lovely to see you. Double D's, the Double D's. It's gonna be I'm gonna have to try and remember Daniel and Dan, otherwise it's gonna get fairly confusing. Yeah, we won't go Daniel and Daniel. But there's quite a lot of innuendos that we can play on when we uh when we take this out to onto social, so I'm quite looking forward to that. Before we get into the serious stuff, I feel like I have to ask who is more likely, because I've been talking about what's uh we've been talking about communication styles recently, and I want to know who's more likely to send a voice note instead of an email between the two of you.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I don't think I've ever had a voice note from Dan, and I don't think I've ever sent him one either. I always get a bit of a shudder when someone replies or sends me a voice note thinking that they have to I have to respond to them via voice note too, so it's not for me.
SPEAKER_04I was gonna I was gonna say, I think you know the answers to that, because you and Louisa send me voice notes and I never reply with a voice note.
SPEAKER_02I just feel like voice notes are the way forward.
SPEAKER_04I really do. If you listen to my voice and how it is, I honestly back to this and I'll be like, oh my god, how cringe worthy. It's honestly it's the worst whenever I leave someone a voicemail or a voice note and I listen back, I'm like, that is dreadful.
SPEAKER_02Well, you're gonna have to listen back to this episode after we finish recording, so that'll be interesting. Right, it feels like let's jump straight into it. What let's talk about what's happening in the market right now. It feels like recruitment is in a really interesting place, I think, right now, because on one hand, people are saying that there are lots of applications and applicants, sorry, and on the other hand, employers are still saying it's quite hard to find the right people the right people. So, from where you both sit, what is what's the market actually feeling like right now across hospitality, retail, and leisure? And I guess you both do quite a little bit different like spaces. So let's go to you first, Daniel. What are you seeing in your space and what spaces do you focus on predominantly?
SPEAKER_01So I'm pretty evenly split with all the sectors we work in from hospitality, health and fitness to the wider leisure sector, as well as family entertainment centres, plus a little bit of retail and travel thrown in. And I think the market is uh evolving, but it's always got its challenges. It's just the shape of those challenges changing. And I think there are um there is a huge level of competitiveness to the both the candidate and the client market. It's just different challenges at different levels, within that, I think, is the main thing that I'm seeing at the moment.
SPEAKER_02Would you say that candidates are underestimating how competitive it is at the moment?
SPEAKER_01I don't know if they're underestimating. I think everyone we speak to says how difficult it is to find new opportunities. Um but I do think that we've seen the struggles shift from those at the sort of earlier stages in the career journey where there is still a large room of candidates available to the slightly more senior roles where the competition is strife and there are fewer opportunities for uh more senior people.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And for you, Dan, what are you what are you seeing in your space and what space is that you that you're occupying at the moment?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I'd say I've probably got a larger proportion in the hospitality space, and definitely the application numbers are up, so therefore the competition's much more difficult. So trying to cut through understanding and how you get in front of the hiring manager in a different way to make yourself be seen and heard. But I also think, in terms of the retention side, because of what's going on, obviously, in the world, but also in general, I think people have after COVID, people had that jumpiness about them because they were chasing a bit of the money, which is natural. Everything went up, prices went up on everything. So I think now what we're finding is those good people aren't necessarily leaving as often as they were before. So it's made retention easier from an employer perspective, but ultimately, as well, they want those great people, and those great people aren't looking for jobs. So sometimes the people in the recruitment space actually have to be a bit more proactive to go out and find those people that suit their business. So that's what I would say is really the main thing for the key hires, but every hire's a key hire, but the key hires of senior leadership roles where general managers, assistant managers are leading your operation. I think you need to be going to find them as well as people are still applying for those roles, but if you really want that golden nugget, you've sometimes got to go and unearth them.
SPEAKER_02Do you think that clients are still expecting an easy hiring process when the market has changed quite drastically?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think I think they're I think they're expecting an easier hiring process now than before purely because they think about the numbers. So they're as they're essentially saying, well, there's loads of applications, but actually it's for me and the c few conversations I've had even recently, it's about the quality of those applications as opposed to just, oh, we've had loads of applications, we're gonna make that higher. So I I think they're expecting a like it will just be easy. We don't have to invest as much money in attraction or how we attract, because there's just more people they're gonna not desperate, but they need a job. Um so they're just gonna land in our lap. So we don't have to go and invest in driving them to our business because there's more people. And to some degree that works. It's like I always talk about sales. If if there's a funnel, if you put more potential opportunities or more candidates in the top, you're going to get someone come out of it at the bottom. So the more candidates you're putting into that mix, you're going to get someone fall out and you're going to hire them. But to whether they're the right hire.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Because we've gone for it feels like we've gone from nobody is applying, which I remember like back in the day when I was in recruitment, I think you'd be like, you would struggle to get like applicants for some certain roles, to now everybody is applying. But I guess now what? Like now that everybody is applying, what are people doing to make sure that they find those right people? I know that I've heard a lot of people saying about how there's so many candidates applying, but they're just not the right calibre or the right level.
SPEAKER_01I think in the past brands and operators used to almost trade on their names as much as anything. And that we are we should naturally be able to have the pick of the bunch. Because now I feel like the market has leveled out so much that it's not just the prestige or the reputation of a certain brand that's going to get the best candidates anymore. People are thinking a lot more creatively about how they can attract great talent and not just attracting that talent by keeping that talent within their business. People aren't necessarily looking at certain names to go in their CV anymore. They're thinking about their actual career pathways in a lot more detail.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I definitely feel like you know that back in the day, people were 100% looking at working for all those big brands that like had the name. Whereas now I think people are like very much. Obviously, you've got loads of big brands that you work with, but I think they're very much over just like, I'm not gonna just come and work for you because you've got you've got a big name. It's more like I want to work for you because you're gonna be able to give me something because I'm gonna gain something out of it. Exactly that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I think that also leads into probably um monetary-wise, the the there's been a lot of change in terms of what people are paying employees and a lot of changes in tipping and things like that. So I think it's levelled it a bit more now. So people are going, well, actually, whereas before, I remember having conversations with people pre-pandemic, and in certain parts of the country, people would jump for 10p more an hour. Like this hotel group once, a new o hotel opened over the road, and they're literally paying 10p more an hour, so those candidates would leave to go and join that rather than think, well, actually, that almost that last in, first out mentality, and I'm not saying that always happens, but within that organised within that side of it, I feel like that could have some elements where people aren't looking at that anymore. They're they're thinking, actually, if we stay put because of X, Y, and Z, not just X and looking at the money.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. All those operators that did keep putting their price their their salaries up, I think I've heard a lot of people sort of doing the full circle and actually going back to the businesses where they were happier rather than earning slightly more money, which is, you know, it can be a painful lesson to learn, but it also does give a perspective as to what is actually important going forwards.
SPEAKER_02That's interesting, isn't it? People are going, what about so they've left somewhere because they've gone left for money and then they've gone back because they were like this, actually, I was happier here, even then that I was getting paid less.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it brings back to things I'm sure thinking about flexibility and culture, you know. I think the monetary side of the higher salary can take you to a self-inflation when we're talking about what may be equivalent to, you know, a relatively small amount over the course of the year, you know, where is that sort of better investment where that more thorough sort of uh happiness and comfort comfortability coming from?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean I also I also think within that as well, that a real biggie for me, which people I don't think shout about enough, especially working in hospitality, is like free meals on shift, the value that costs versus a Tesco meal deal and the nutrition, depending on what business you're working for, the nutritional value of eating a Tesco's meal deal with a pack of crisps five days a week and a potentially processed sandwich, to being able to have a meal on shift every single day, and people forget the cost of well, if they're paying five pounds for a meal deal, that's of your taxed money. So actually it's£6.50. So then times that by five is£37 a week, times that by£52 is a hell of a lot of money that you have to earn to go and eat the same thing every day, and then going treating yourself to maybe a different lunch is going to cost come with more cost factors and implications. So I think a lot of people forget that, certainly from a candidate's perspective as well. I think people know about it, but they don't like when they're trying to attract the candidate, they don't shout about the monetary value of it. It's just seen as a it's a free meal on shift, and people just go, I expect that. Well, we work in an office, we don't get a free meal on shift, so yeah, it's not everywhere.
SPEAKER_02It's so interesting that you say that, because I definitely feel I feel like slightly different. I feel like if you wear in hospitality, it is a given that you should be fed because you are working with food and drink all day long. For them not to feed you is is insane. And like I mean, yeah, maybe you're right. It is a benefit, it is still a benefit, like it is an amazing benefit that we get with hospitality. But there's also like a lot of things that aren't benefits within hospitality that are unspoken of. So I feel like it's like you know you work in hospitality, you know you're gonna get fed. You work, you know you're working in office, you know you're possibly not gonna get fed. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know if it's like to me, it's not benefit anymore that's like that big a deal that people are actually that fussed about.
SPEAKER_01I remember working in one of my early roles where we had an FB outlet in the health club that we worked in, which we had to pay for coffee at. You know, obviously if we're doing client interactions, the coffee was free, but and then I was spending about three hours' wages on my daily coffee allowance.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but that's the thing, isn't it? Like, you know, you look at it and you don't realise that all right, you don't want to be drinking a latte every other hour or something, but they do add up to, and you're right, if you go and work in in an office, but if you work anywhere, you forget those costs attributes that are there that goes in back pocket.
SPEAKER_02You do, I think. And I think I think as well, like we take things for granted so much, like, especially like in hospitality, sometimes you do take certain things, like you know, the fact that you do get a free meal every day and stuff like that, and you can take your friends and family out and get a discount and all that kind of stuff. That like if you worked in like I don't know, in an office environment for instance, you know, in the banking industry, you wouldn't really get those kind of benefits. But you know, we do take certain things for granted. But I do think like I think there's so much more that hospitality brands, leisure, anyone like that, leisure retail hospitality can do to like shout more about some of the benefits that they do offer, and also like think about like the kind of benefits that they are offering because you know, people just don't want like a cycle to work scheme is not a benefit in my eyes anymore. Like that's just so basic. So it's like, how do you think outside the box?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, how do you find those? And there's the and the thing is is about finding something as well, because everyone is trying to find more benefits and more tangible benefits, but then it's making sure that your employees or the candidate it that's working for you is using those benefits to make the most because it's great saying we offer this, this, and this, but actually if I don't use them, well it's no use to anyone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, 100%. Talk so speaking about candidates and like I know that you we were talking we've we've been talking a bit about you know how they're attracted to brands. I just want to switch it up a little bit because you mentioned a previous conversation that you had about about around candidates and how many people are applying for roles, and I think there's such an important topic because a lot of candidates can take rejection really personally. So I think it's let's let's talk about that when there is loads of competition. How should candidates think about it without getting I guess completely disheartened?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I think from that side there are look, there's other platforms, shall we say, where you can apply to multiple jobs at the click of a button, and undoubtedly AI is going to change that up as well. Um, where you're going to be able to easily apply to multiple roles without even know who you're applying to. So I think backing it up with either a like a covering letter, but based or a covering paragraph based around why that business is doing something differently that you would like to be considered for a role with them. But also, I mean, I could be old school and in the way I approach things, but going on to other platforms, like say LinkedIn, for example, and trying to find the hiring manager, give something tailored around that business, around why you want to work for that business. So they actually see this person's making more of an effort. There's time and time again that I've heard that hiring managers have phoned someone up and gone, oh, you've applied for job X and Y. And they the candidates just gone, sorry, who are you? So if you're not taking a care in the application because you're literally just applying to multiple roles at a click of a button, then you're, you know, you shouldn't be shocked when that you're you know, you're not necessarily getting rejected at a click of a button as well. So why will you be different to that person? What's going to make you stand out? And I think doing a tailored approach as well, backing it up with a good experience you've had or something you saw them do really well in the marketplace, and you know, whether it's supporting a charity that you believe in, backing it up with that, I think it shows that you've you're aligning to that business's values, and from there So don't go back to the back.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say I think the vicious circle as well, because should if you get a couple of knockbacks or rejections from roles that you think that you were the right person for, it's easy to get into the habit of applying for a wider spectrum of roles that perhaps don't necessarily sit close to your skill set. And the further away you are from what you've already got experience in, the more rejection you're gonna have because we know it's a candidate competitive market. I think there's something to say to sticking to your guns a little bit, you know, making sure you're applying for the right roles that match your experience, that are at the salary levels that are realistic. Of course, you want to be ambitious, but you've got to remain sort of comfortable with the roles that you're applying for. I think the other side is to seeking feedback wherever possible. And we know that's harder than it might ordinarily or should be, but seeking sort of feedback from your peers, you know, why and why why do you think I'm getting rejected? These are the roles that I've been applying for. And hopefully with that sort of unbiased approach, you can steer yourself back towards the roles where you do stand a better chance of succeeding in.
SPEAKER_02Do you think that there is a difference between being enthusiastic and being strategic when you're applying for a job? Yes. Because you know, like how I've seen like people applying for jobs and they're like super energetic, super like they can they create these like really funny cover letters that are like really engaging, like you read it and you're like this like reading like some sort of like funny story. When then you see other people that are more strategic and more like looking at specific things about the job and about the job specifications and writing things that are relevant to like what they're looking for, and and and showing like different scenarios where they've maybe done certain things that match to the job. And I always think like what's like what's is there is there a difference between is it better to be energetic and enthusiastic, or is it better to be strategic?
SPEAKER_01What do you say an energetic and enthusiastic? Do you mean as you're almost elaborating on the source, or do you mean like the approach of the application? Because I think you've got to be able to quantify everything that you're saying that you can do you are able to saying that you can quantify everything that you're able to do. You know, I think you can be as creative and elaborate, elaborate your cover letter as much as possible, but should you progress to the next round, you're gonna be asked to back up these sort of snippets of glamour that you're putting down in your cover letter or in your CV, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I guess the thing that I think that I'm seeing a lot of is that people are like trying to make themselves stand out from the crowd by creating these cover letters that are more fun, storytelling, and a bit different, rather than it having any real relevance to the actual job itself. It's more like, yeah, it's more about being fun and just being a bit different. Whereas you then see the flip side, which is that people are being really strategic and thinking about the job role and writing a cover letter that's more focused around the actual job. But what I'm see what I'm hearing more is that people like being more like excited by a candidate that's that that's made like a funny cover letter rather than the strategic one.
SPEAKER_04I think if I jump in there, so um just even thinking about it in my head now whilst we're talking about it, we will do marketing on like social m social media platforms, and you pay for those impressions of four seconds, five seconds within LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, etc. You've got to capture. I think how many people are scrolling that. Yeah, you've got to capture attention. Yeah. So I think you need to capture that attention of that hiring manager within that 10 seconds because most people will skim a CV nowadays and go, oh. But actually, talking to people, real life people, especially in hospitality, that's when you'll find out if they've got the personality, and and you can teach look, 85% of our roles, we can teach them to do those skill sets, but you can't train them to want to get up and come and work and serve customers in the best way that they do every single day. So I think with a with a bit of a gambit we'll capture them and it shows that you've got a personality, which is what hospitality and leisure and retail people want. But I think you still need to be able to, as Dan says, back it up. But it's about like how do we get in front of some of our potential customers? Well, actually, we've got to do something a bit different sometimes and be creative because everyone will tick in a different light. And There was one person that I used a different tactic to get in front of, and I still work with that person since because I led with facts of potential candidates that would suit their roles. And they came back and said, What a great email, let's meet. And since I've worked with her for two and a half years now. So I think from that side, you've got to try and understand the person and the business that you're trying to build yourself.
SPEAKER_02What you're saying is it's definitely a more of a two-pronged approach. Yeah. And also like depending on the brand, depends on what I guess if you have like a brand that's like maybe like they are more, I guess, jokey or juvenile in the way that they come across or market themselves, and maybe you then match their energy. So it's about maybe matching the energy uh of the brand that you're applying to. Perfect. There you go. There you go. I mean, I get like I answered the question for you. And you're welcome. What is, I guess, what's the what's the thing? Okay, let's move away from candidates before we do so. Let's think, let's just give one like clear like tip for the candidates that are listening. What is one thing that candidates need to stop doing immediately, Daniel?
SPEAKER_01I think they it sounds really basic and we just covered it, but they've got to stop mass applying and you know, forgetting what jobs that they actually apply for. They need to be invested. It happens so often. We hear from clients that say, Oh, we'd love to speak to you about this front-of-house roller operator X. It's like, oh, who are you? Sorry, remind me. And suddenly, how does that conversation go anywhere? You know, be selective, do your research, understand who it is that you're applying for, keep it in mind. There's a responsibility on the clients to react in a timely manner, but you know, the the the I don't know what you're calling, the shotgun approach to just getting your applications out there because you've got a free hour, is not going to get anyone anywhere. You can't make it tailored, you can't keep it relevant. Um, you're not gonna do yourself any favours whatsoever, I don't think.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and Dan, what is the one thing that they should start doing today?
SPEAKER_04Well, he just stole that straight out of my uh bat, didn't he? I teed it up from early and he's taken it. But I would say do a more tailored approach, but maybe in bite-sized chunk applies. So instead of applying to 20 jobs a week, let's apply to free. Push for feedback as to why sometimes you don't want to hear it, but you're not the right person for the job. But if you ask the question, what do I need to do to get to be the right person for that job? There's a lot of systems out there now that you can go and get yourself trained up and then go back and speak to that person and then say, Well, you said I needed to do this. Yeah, I've done this. Can we have a conversation? Yeah. So almost self-selecting yourself for the role, as opposed to being, well, I wasn't the right person, so that's it. I'm done, and I'm never talking to that business again. If you like the brand, and if people people would love to see that from a candidate, say, actually, you listen to me, you said, you asked me to go and get upskill myself from A to B, and I've done A, B, and C, those you pretty much guarantee yourself an interview, which will probably be a final interview almost, because you've done everything that they wanted.
SPEAKER_01I can think of one example in the last bit where clients of mine actually applied for a new job within a different operator, and they were very comfortable and confident they ticked all the boxes, but they didn't initially receive a response from it at all. She actually followed it up, and the recruiter in question actually said, Look, I'm so sorry, I don't know how your application slipped through in there. I'd love to invite you in for an interview. So just having that, you know, gut conviction that if you are the right person for that job, and again, it comes back to if you're not applying for a hundred jobs, if you're applying for five jobs, but you feel very strongly about three of those, three's a reasonable amount of vacancy to actually follow up, you know, have that second interaction with them. And if it doesn't go anywhere, perhaps it's not the right role, but at least you can rest easy knowing that you've given it every opportunity.
SPEAKER_02I think so many people think it's like a numbers game. It's like, oh, if I apply to 10, at least I'll get two interviews, or if I apply to 100, at least I'll get five inches. But do you know what I mean? And it's like as soon as you start applying over too many roles, your application starts to like get um diluted because you're not putting in the effort if if you were just applying for five, for instance. So yeah, I think that's a really good bit of advice there.
SPEAKER_04And also within that as well, is recruiters start seeing the same names coming around and don't mass apply to you might like the brand, apply to the role that suits you best in that brand and follow up with that role. Sometimes even we can see it, Canada X has applied to three different roles for that business, and they're just gonna go, well, they apply for everything.
SPEAKER_02So I used to get them when I was a recruiter, I used to get the same guy applied to every single one of the roles, whether it was an office role or whether it was a site role or a kitchen quarter role. It was like he just applied for every single role. And I think I called him once and I just said, Look, what is it you're actually looking for? He has currently applied for every single job we have, and he was like, I just need and he he just wanted a job, he's like, I just want an opportunity, and I was like, Well, I think you need to decide on what it is you actually want to do before you start applying. Because I get it though, sometimes people think they don't really know what they want to do, so they kind of apply for everything because they just are not really 100% sure. But then I then the then my thing for for that is that do your research, find out there's so much information on the on the on the on the web. On the web, on the internet, the world wide web. The world wide web. Right, so we're gonna move on to talking about security versus flexibility. This is one of the biggest conversations in the people space at the moment. Oh, actually, full stop. I think everyone talks everyone talks about like flexibility, but in hospitality, retail and leisure, flexibility can mean very different things because the work is very people-facing, it's site-based, it's fast moving, and it's often shift-led. So, can employers generally offer both security and flexibility now, or are we still trying to sell people a bit of a dream that hospitality can do both?
SPEAKER_03Who wants to go first?
SPEAKER_04This is this is where we have the long pause because no one wants to answer.
SPEAKER_01Do you know? I think an operator can offer both, but I think what we get into the habit as of people saying that they do both without having having any real intention of delivering on both, you know, it's for everyone's advantage if you're very transparent with what you can offer. You're right, you know, in hospitality and in health and fitness, you will be required to work evenings, you will be required to work weekends, but if you can guarantee every other weekend off, for example, that works. If you're gonna say flexible shift patterns to work around you, realistically, is that ever going to material is that ever gonna happen?
SPEAKER_02I need to have I need to have Saturday, Friday, and uh Sunday off, and that's my flex, that's what I need for my flexibility. And you're working in a pub and they're gonna be like, well, that's not gonna happen, is it?
SPEAKER_01Exactly that. So you you know, you do see some operators target different things like four-day working weeks, which yes, you know that you'll be working 12 hours each of the four days you are working, but if that means you get three days off, people will live with that and they'll be able to build an ongoing work-life balance around that. Uh like I say, I think the problems come where operators say that they can offer everything to bring in the candidates, which ultimately wastes more time down the process, interviewing more people, not being able to offer people candidates get upset by that experience, they don't want to go back to apply for that business. So it's about being realistic about what you can and cannot offer to help you naturally hone in on the right candidates.
SPEAKER_02Dad, do you think do you think the brands winning talent right now are the ones being more honest about the reality of the job? Do you think? 100%.
SPEAKER_04I think it it allows you, therefore, to also structure, because they're being honest with the candidate, allows you to structure your shop floor with who's on, they're giving the best experience at the best times. So I think 100% anyone that's being transparent with what they can offer and what they can't offer, because it's also about what you can't offer, so that at least everyone knows. I think it makes for a much better workforce, a happier workforce because the candidate or the employee knows what to expect because that's what they signed up to. You've both agreed on that together, and therefore they'll just give better service to the customer, which ultimately is what everyone wants.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. Well, we can't have this conversation about recruitment without talking about AI. I'm learning so much more about AI on a daily basis because right now candidates are using AI to help write CVs and cover letters, recruiters are using AI in screening and admin, and somewhere in the middle, we are all trying to work out where the authenticity still lives and who is real and who is not real. So I have to ask the question: did AI just apply for this job? Or is it a real person? Like, how, like, what is smart? What's the smart use of AI from a candidate perspective? Let's start with there from the first. What's what does it look like for Dan?
SPEAKER_04So I think definitely helping you in formatting your CV and cover letter from a starting point because sometimes people might not be great with the written language. I'm not that literate in terms of my writing. So I think from a structural point of view, it will help as a base. But I you always need to put your standpoint on it as a person as who you are. So using it to help you from that side, but don't use it to mass apply for job vacancies because we're just going back to everything we've covered throughout this whole conversation is you know, you don't even know who you're applying to. So I think using it as a base to enable you to start your application process is the best use.
SPEAKER_02What feels a bit too polished or too generic or a bit unbelievable, do you think, when it comes to people using AI or writing like cover letters and CVs?
SPEAKER_01I think Dan got exactly right. It should be an enabler, right? And it it acts on the prompts that you give it. And you only give it so much actual context. It's only it can jazz things up and it can be creative and it can tell things in a certain story, but it's not really helping you make your case or putting tangible achievements into it. I think use it to refine things, use your use it to structure things more than anything, give it some substance, you know, and then if that's what takes it to the next level of that sort of get its scenes and you can back that up, great. But you know, you could write the most colourful cover letter, have the most formatted CV, but if it's not got anything of substance on it, it's not going to help you necessarily.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I think at this point it is it is it a candidate versus recruiter or or bot versus bot, I suppose at this point, really, because some people are just using AI, heavily using AI, and you don't we're losing that human connection. And I guess those are conversations are happening where we're we are seeing a reduction in people teams across the board with so many businesses, um, but people are like, oh is it because AI is taking over the jobs, or or is it or is it that we're getting smarter, so we're working smarter and using the AI to support the roles? I don't necessarily think that AI is going to take over jobs. I just don't think it's it's not it's not capable of that yet.
SPEAKER_01I think it works in a similar fashion from the client to the sorry, from the employer to the candidate perspective as well. It should be used to help save time in the laborious work, in this, you know, for a certain percentage of the screening tools, if it can get that valuable human connection happening sooner with the right people. Um, that being said, I do know someone who's just created an AI tool which will identify gaps in people's CVs and prompt the candidate for more info about certain areas they're enrolled. So he's defined it as that sort of orange sector. They're not an instant regret, but they're not an instant progression.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The AI tool actually goes back and highlights this is the areas you're missing. Please explain more about this to then determine whether they progress or not. So it's a valuable tool, but especially again in the sectors that we work in, it's about what Dan mentioned earlier about the personality to bring an experience to your hospitality venue, to give someone great coaching tips, to make someone's day out at their venue an enjoyable day. That you need to have through human-to-human conversation. So if you can get to that part of the process quicker, that can only be a good thing, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. I think, I think, um, well, I don't I mean, I think I think AI is raising the bar. I don't I think it's that's the whole, but for me, I'm seeing it as an opportunity. It's raising the bar, it's making us think it a bit differently. It's it's basically taking away some of the admin stuff that we were spending a lot of time potentially doing and giving us more time to where we think be a bit more creative, a bit more, a bit more thought, thought-provoking, and you know, using those other skills that we potentially weren't really able to tap into because we didn't have the time to. So I think it's about how do you make sure that you use AI to support you rather than become you, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And also um proof proofread your CV before you apply. Because uh leaving things on there that uh you can absolutely tell it's AI is gonna, if AI is looking at it from the other side, is just gonna kick you out of the process immediately anyway.
SPEAKER_02So Yeah. So like get rid of those massive dashes, hyphen the weird capitalizations of words, yeah, the Americanization. So something I I keep coming back to is whether we are still overvaluing presentation over potential. And what I mean by that is because some of the best people in hospitality, retail leisure, are like brilliant people, brilliant with people, they're brilliant under pressure, they're brilliant at creating experiences, but they may not have the slickest CV in the world. So are we still over hiring for polish and under hiring for potential, do you think? Dan? Noel? Dan?
SPEAKER_03And one of you speak.
SPEAKER_01Um, I think there's a couple of elements to it. Again, I think there is going to be again, it depends on certain employers' hiring processes and also the tech they use, because actually, some applicant tracking systems will strip out all that formatting anyway. So it won't you spend three hours creating the perfect PDF CV, the receiver doesn't even see half of that. That's true. If they do, you may be at a disadvantage, but again, I think it comes back to the actual substance of your CV, which will do the majority of the talking for you. It'd be a really sad state of affairs if someone wins, especially in the hospitality sector, based on the polished version rather than the actual qualification, I suppose, that I said.
SPEAKER_02Do you think the death of the CV is about to come very soon?
SPEAKER_04I don't think very soon because I think the hiring managers are too fixated on what is written on a bit of paper versus having a conversation with someone. So I don't think it will disappear yet. I think from the candidate it would disappear because they probably don't see that it's needed. And as I mentioned earlier, I think we can train people a lot of things in this industries we operate in. Yeah, so I I it won't go away, not yet, but probably should go away if that makes sense. So yeah, when you see, I think you've spoken to Mike Phillips before about someone applying with uh with a poem. So that's really completely the opposite to applying with your TCSEs. I mean, you know, I I don't even can't even remember what my my GCSE results were. I've probably got an A I wonder why. Yeah, I've probably got an A for annoyance because I annoy enough people to try and use leisure jobs. So I don't that certainly in the industries we're in, that doesn't make us, but what makes us is great people. So we can train those great people to go on to be successful people in our organisations.
SPEAKER_02I I mean I I I'm of a different thought thought process that eventually, maybe not soon, but in the next five years, the C V will will die because it doesn't really make much sense, especially for the hospitality industry. You can't really tell if someone's going to be good with your guests by reading their C V. Maybe when they you get to, especially for team to for like entry-level entry-level roles, there is there is really no need for that CV. I think like for like management roles, they yes, you need to know where they've worked or what kind of establishments they've worked in before, or same as like for like SGF, but like for our entry-level roles, it doesn't really make much sense. And it feels I feel like it lengthen lengthens the process, which is why you started to see a lot of these businesses going more into like video CVs rather than actual paper CVs.
SPEAKER_04And also within that as well, people creating a bias just because of where someone's worked. Yeah. They probably would be because they go, if it's a coffee shop and they've worked at Starbucks over Gales or whatever it might be, then you know, we don't if that person doesn't like Starbucks or doesn't like Gales, they're probably going They're no good for me.
SPEAKER_02Or even if they or even if they've put in something there about like they went to a particular school and you've heard that school and you're like, oh god, that's a shit school. I don't I don't want to like recruit anyone from that school. Like, it's just weird. You can immediately from C V, you're immediately creating a bias based on what you're reading. So like it's just just let's let's get rid. Get rid of the C V. But then what do we put in there? Yeah, what do we put in now instead? I mean, that's I think videos. I think let's just all do little TikTok videos and answer questions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but then you're gonna find so many people are uncomfortable in that sort of more forced environment in a hospitality setting where it's a much more natural conversation. You know, if I was I'd be asked to do a podcast, God forbid, oh that's a why.
SPEAKER_02It begs the question of like, is that really like the most equitable way of people applying? But I just think maybe it's about giving people different options. So if you've got a- No, I fully agree.
SPEAKER_01And I think we see certainly getting points on it from the application processes, our clients and still some are asking for the most brief data capture form, you know, formalities, name, location, shifts available. Some are still six pages worth of minute level detail, which if a candidate makes it towards the end, they're probably going to get the job because they'd be the only one in 20 people that actually do that.
SPEAKER_02That actually finishes it.
SPEAKER_01Saw it through.
SPEAKER_03Oh god.
SPEAKER_01Right, I've got I think the CV will be around, but it just might not be the primary route to candidate or client than it has been in the past. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Maybe we've got an opportunity here to create a simple C V, we'll call it. Simple C V.
SPEAKER_02I think I think what you need to do is create a way for people to not apply with a CV. Yeah, maybe it's like you create a form link and on the website you create your CV on the form, and that's what you use to apply. But I just don't think people are I don't even think they teach kids anymore at school how to make a CV. Like that's not even part of a curriculum. That was something that we did at school. Do they still do that at school?
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say, I wonder how many people know what CP actually stands for anymore. All those Latin speakers.
SPEAKER_02Curriculum vita.
SPEAKER_04What about that?
SPEAKER_03Nice little citron.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god. Moving on, moving on swiftly. Okay, I've got some some I want to do a quick trends round with you both. No overthinking, just your first instant. Going to ask a couple of quick fire questions. You just gotta tell me what you're first what you're thinking. I do start with you, Dan. One recruitment trend that is genuinely helpful.
SPEAKER_01I think talent pooling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, talent pooling is streaming me out for God. Wow, that was I'm just out of mind.
SPEAKER_02Talent pooling, thank you. Thank you, Daniel. Yeah, I think talent calling is very, very, very genuinely quite helpful.
SPEAKER_01It's certainly not anything new, but what I mean by that is not necessarily creating a generic advert for registering interest here, but when people are going through the process actually looking at candidates and thinking, whilst they're not right for this role, we want to keep these people engaged, or it's going to be something opening up. But not again, so it's not just us sit there and say it's managing that pool going forward. So there's probably a more sophisticated phrase to no.
SPEAKER_02I think I think a lot of people, because we when I used to recruit, talent balling was a big thing, and I don't think it is as big anymore as it used to be, because it's so where it's so much faster, like in terms of the way that we're working and the way that we recruit. But I think talent balling is definitely going to be coming back and it's definitely more helpful now, especially because yeah, if someone might apply today, you know, in three months' time they will have already have a job, but like in six months' time they may be looking again. So like it's it's really important to keep those candidates engaged.
SPEAKER_01It's certainly something that people have been coming up in, sorry, people have been mentioning more in conversation of late as to how they can keep certain potential rejections still warming their light opportunity for both employer and candidate.
SPEAKER_03Dan, I'm gonna come back to you.
SPEAKER_04Hopefully you can answer this one. No, this is gonna be shocking, isn't it? It's a Monday afternoon, I'm telling you.
SPEAKER_02One thing that candidates want more of in 2026. To know what they're getting paid. Yeah. Oh my god, yes. Drop the mic now, shall I? Manage to get one. See? One for you, Daniel. One thing employers still are not getting right.
SPEAKER_01God. One thing employers. Come on, Dan, save me on this one.
SPEAKER_04Well, there you go. It's the same, it's it's the same argument. They're not being transparent in what they're being paid. Competitive salary needs to die immediately because we know it's generally speaking minimum wage, or there's something around it. Also, what the hiring managers or hiring companies don't realise is that if they advertise that, websites like Ledger Jobs and also other platforms will be targeting the right candidates with the right roles that they're looking for. So actually, and I've probably just saved myself completely here, but that might then change the dial a bit on the number of people that apply because that you're targeting the candidates with the right levels of experience and the right salary bandings that they're within. So therefore, your quality should increase. But also from the cancer, the candidates are aware of this. They need to be mindful that know where they're at, don't just look at the pound signs and say, oh, that's how much money I want to be on, because it doesn't work like that. You know, yes, it's that's something to aspire to, but advertising the salary and making people aware you'll target the correct audience.
SPEAKER_03That's important.
SPEAKER_02For sure. Yeah, I do agree. I think sometimes we uh I think we always think sometimes that the you know when you think people think, oh, telling a story, painting a picture, employer branding, and then you don't have to add anything in about salary because people are gonna come and work for us because of the brand and the story that we've told. But actually just keep it really simple. People just want to know when they're gonna get paid, what are they gonna get paid, and what time they're working from until like it's just really simple. Um I think with that as well.
SPEAKER_04I did an event last week um with and part of that was around trunk and also people understanding trunk, what they're earning, how they can earn it. It's only ever going to drive a better workforce and candid mindset because they want to earn more money as well as do a great job. So I think that also by the candidates or the employees understanding that, then the business will know that they can use that to retain people because they know actually this is what you can realistically earn by working that Saturday night shift.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, 100%. Final, final question. Uh, I'm gonna go for you, Dan. LinkedIn, useful tool or professional theatre.
SPEAKER_04If it were me, professional theatre, obviously. That Friday roundup, used in the right way, I would say it's a good professional tool. They're obviously, you can see by the way they're pulling in low everyone's jobs like another platform used to do organically, that they're trying to drive more people to use LinkedIn. In the past, you wouldn't necessarily have thought a team member would be on LinkedIn looking for a role. So they're trying to populate it by pulling everyone's job roles into that. So professional theatre for me, but I do think it is a really useful tool, especially from being able to target those hiring managers with a more bespoke way of applying. You know, make sure, you know, by nudging them and dropping them an email with a follow-up to your application with some key reasons as to why you think you might be the right person, then I think you're at least five times more likely to at least get an interview with that company.
SPEAKER_02Perfect. So before we wrap up, I want to end on this. Someone listening who is a candidate feeling a bit knocked by the market right now, what would you say to them, Daniel?
SPEAKER_01I think if they're really feeling that knocked out, uh, sorry, that knocked by the the protest, first of all, reach out to a professional. We can't. We we can't react to our hundred thousand requests, but we do get incoming inquiries as to, you know, this is all look for, we have got a team of experienced people supporting recruitment functions across all sectors. We're just one of many platforms or places that people can go to to ask for advice and support. See if there are any trends, you know, what kind of businesses are knocking them back. Are they all the same type? Are they all in the same sector? Are they all from different locations? Are they all at different levels? Um, and just understand, you know, that it is a competitive market. Apply, search selectively, apply selectively, put time into creating a strong application. You know, if you're doing 10 in that day, make sure your tenth application is as solid as your first application and follow up. Is you don't want to harass a company every single day, but at the same time, you want to show tenacity, you want to show that you care, and you should be able to get some solid feedback.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and for clients or a client listening who wants to attract better talent, what is the one thing that they need to look they need to look at more honestly? Do you think at the moment, Dan?
SPEAKER_04So again, going back to that transparency and pay, the working hours, as much detail as you can give the person looking for that role, then what that will do is drive drive down the volume of applications because it's going to be more relevant. But what will be more relevant is the people that are applying should have read that applic uh that uh job advert and therefore should be more tailored and more understanding that they're the right candidate because they they're fully aware that it's 40 hours a week, half an hour break, hour break, free meal, not free meal, trunk included, X, Y, and Z. So I think the more information you can put in there, but whilst making it fun, not bullet pointed, I think um, you know, you're more likely to get less applications, which is people want.
SPEAKER_02Recruitment right now is not just about filling jobs, it's about clarity, it's about honesty, it's about the candidate experience and really understanding what people value at work. Double D's, thank you very much for joining me on Love What You Do. And to everyone listening, whether you are job hunting, hiring, or just trying to make sense of a wonderful world of talent recruitment right now, thank you for tuning in. Thank you, Double D's. You're more than welcome. Thank you very much. Peace out.
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